Ron, I really appreciate your humility and grace in reading and responding to critical messages, especially where those messages, whether right or wrong on the facts, are less gracious and humble.
Thanks Joshua. I used to argue and get defensive, but years ago I realized a respectful approach dials down the temperature and helps everyone behave more politely. A lot of harsh criticism is a reflection of our coarse cultural, the aping of "what everyone else is doing." Monkey see, monkey do is, unfortunately, an apt description of most human behavior. So the more of us who treat others with respect, the more of us who'll grow respectful. Now if only we could convince politicians of this.
Ron, I wanted to sincerely thank you for all the knowledge you provide. You are the best in the business when it comes to ballistic and hunting knowledge, in my opinion
Thank you Ron for the clarity and the humility in your responses. I certainly agree with you on the comparison between 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5x55 Swede. Comparing factory load velocity between 6.5 Creed and 6.5x55, the velocities are very close, even from European ammunition manufacturers like Norma and Sako. In some factory loadings, 6.5 Creed actually has more muzzle velocity for equal weight bullet…150+ fps in some instances. The SAAMI MAP spec for 6.5x55 is 46,000 CUP (51,834 psi) and the European CIP MAP spec is 48,163 CUP (55,114 psi). These modern 6.5x55 140 grain loads can reach up to 2750 FPS…not a huge performance gain over 6.5 Creed. The higher stated CIP standard is designed for modern actions only (Sako, Tikka, Sauer etc). Some shooters will try these modern loads in the older Mauser actions with no issues, but the manufacturers and load manuals will not support it. Some shooters also bring up the proof pressure of 6.5x55 SE rifles. You should never fire a rifle at the proof pressure. That pressure is for factory testing only. This places too much stress on the action and introduces safety issues. For reference, CIP proof pressure on 6.5 Creedmoor is close to 79,000 psi! The 6.5 Creedmoor SAAMI MAP spec is 62,000 psi and CIP MAP spec is 63,091 psi. The majority of factory 6.5 Creedmoor loads operate at greater pressure and greater velocity than the 6.5x55. The Swede has a slight advantage if hand loading is involved, due to greater powder capacity, but the 6.5 Creedmoor wins in terms of general factory offerings.
Thank you, Thomas. Yes, the Swede, with its volume advantage over the CM, can be the top dog except for those old MAPs and safety concerns. Mostly it't the more extensive factory loadings that make the CM the more reasonable choice for most shooters. Handloaders, of course, march to a different drummer.
Thank you, Ron. The Creedmoor is certainly a versatile and reasonable option in today's market. Thank you for all the informative videos. I always learn a great deal from your RUclips channel and podcast. It has inspired me to be a better reloader, marksman and hunter. - Thomas @@RonSpomerOutdoors
The 6.5x55 can be loaded much hotter closer to 6.5 PRC in modern rifle. As for 8 mm there's a modern blaser caliber namely 8.5x55 and the ballistics looks amazing,even better than the new 7 PRC unfortunately only available in very expensive Blaser rifles.Ron could you do a comparison of the 8.5x55 Vs ...
As a hunter from northern Europe I see lot of young generation to getting "tactical" and search those extreme long range under .30 cal rifles, even thou we are in the middle of a forest and shooting distances for big game usually is from 0-100 meters. I live in Finland right next to Russia, so that is probably part of a reason for that. I respect highly your approach of things, without making statements with "I know it all" attitude like young bloggers. It is nice that you know about hunting/shooting outside U.S. and handle even bit funny "facts" in a gentlemanly way. 👌
Well here goes my sermon on a couple of things. The SAAMI specs for 6.5x55 are ridiculously low. Based on un founded beliefs that the M96 action was not strong enough. I have a Husqvarna 9.3x62 Mauser built on a M96 action exactly the same as the 6.5x55 Swede. Husqvarna chambered 30-06 and other higher pressure cartridges for years on the M96 action with no problems. I have one of the “Sporterized by Kimber” Carl Gustaf M96 6.5x55. Mine has its original barrel which was shortened to 22” and the steps turned down . The original twist on the Swede was 1/7.5. Plenty good for any 6.5mm/.264 bullets that I know of. I’m not dumb enough to try to turn it into a 264 Win Mag or 6.5-06 but it can be hand loaded to equal or exceed the Creedmoor with no problems. The long action of the Swede make it possible to seat the bullet farther out to take full advantage of the 6.5x55 case capacity. Of course you still have to pay attention to pressure signs as any good hand loader knows. Besides visual inspection a micrometer to measure case expansion is your friend. The same things can be said about the anemic factory loadings for the 7x57 Mauser. The original 173 grain military load for the 7x57 in the model 93 Mauser action was 50,370 CUP which translates to a little over 58,000 psi. Once again you’re not going to equal a 7 REM mag or 7mm PRC but you can safely get results equal or better than the 7mm-08 especially with 160-175 grain bullets. For interesting informative reading see Mike Hudson’s article entitled “Mauser: Small Ring, Big Controversy” at chuckhawks.com.
Well said n let's not forget the 8x57 n 257 Roberts are underloaded as well. For basically same reason. So called weak actions n or bores on 8mm while some truth to that. There is no reason why a 6.5 x55 6.5x57 7x57 8x57 or Roberts should top out 45to 48 psi while a modern action 06 308 or Crapmoore tops out at 58 to 60 PSI.Not to confuse the often CUP # with PSI #. Wish the reloading company's would do higher pressure loads for them today as Hodgdon did once for the Ruger 1 77 Rem700 n Win 70 back in the 80s for the 7x57.. Most have no issues with hotter data for 45/70 for modern rifles.
@@michaelwilson9986I was going to mention the BOB and the 300 Savage but Utube cut off the length of my sermon. I have the SAAMI specs downloaded. Oddly C.U.P for 8x57 is 37000 but PSI using the piezo transducer method is only 35000. That may be because of the fear that a .323 diameter bullet may be loaded in one of the original rifles with the .318 diameter bore. Viewers unfamiliar with the difference between the C.U.P and piezo transducer pressure measuring systems should look it up. The most recent SAAMI standards for both methods can be downloaded in one document. The European CIP standards can also be found. One caution is that there is no totally accurate method for converting CUP to the more accurate piezo transducer PSI method because the copper crusher cannot detect the pressure spikes that the piezo transducer can.
The name of the cartrigde is just 6,5x55. Not «swede». It is a Norwegian and Swedish design. SAAMI and CIP have made up pressure standards by themselves. Norway and Sweden are not members of either organization.
@@tbo2307I know that. Did you not notice that I referred to it as the 6.5x55 in my opening paragraph? The 6.5 Swede or just the Swede is a colloquialism most often used in reference to the Carl Gustaf M96, M38 and M41 rifles just as the 30-06 is often referred to as just the ‘06 and the Norwegian designed/U.S. adopted Krag-Jorgensen rifle is usually just referred to as a 30-40 Krag which is what some of Teddy Roosevelts Rough Riders were armed with, but that’s another story. There were Krag-Jorgensen rifles chambered in 6.5x55. In the U.S. they are scarce as hens teeth (another colloquialism) and although smooth actions, were clumsy to load and decidedly weaker than the Swedish Mauser actions. The subject of the discussion was the relative comparisons of the 6.5 Creedmoor vs the 6.5x55. The Utube forum is not a scholarly journal requiring proper grammar and syntax as if one was writing a thesis for a Masters Degree. As such I will continue to refer to the 6.5x55 cartridge as the Swede or other such descriptions for convenience in comments that are relevant to the discussion at hand. You may speak or write of it however you wish.
It’s not that the belief that the m96 action is weak ( I have one) it’s the truth that the krag Jorgensen action is weak. The 6.5 Swede was chambered in both
@@ericvantassell6809Well, if you look at case capacity you'll notice that the old 6.5 x 55 is a lot bigger. Now which one do you think you can load the hottest? The smaller CM or the larger Swede?
While I do have opinions on several of the topics from this video, I choose only to say that I really dig you as a human being Ron. Keep on keeping on at being you; you're doing a pretty good job from what I've seen.
Thanks Kevin. But don't hesitate to challenge me on anything important that you think I got wrong. I truly do want to provide accurate, solid info. Opinions always welcomed!
The podcasts just get better and better, for a younder man who is really delving into hunting it has been an invaluable source of information and entertainment keep up all the good work and thanks for all you do!
Ron- blake from beautiful big sky wyoming. Love your podcasts. So so much. Youre a gem to us all. Dont need to reply but remember cast bullets we oversize a few tho and cast and coated bullets too for better seal. Pistol and rifle the same. But Usually for us handloaders we see this wyen se buy bulk cast m coated bullets. Itd be nice to hear a podcast on howcto make high pressure cast bullets. Coated vs gas checks vs both and the max of each, if ur a caster or the know how. Thx. Take care. Glad u had a great trip
My Dad did his own cast bullets for 3 decades for all the revolvers he had. He used a special wax that you can buy for cast. It worked great. He also used base caps and some power mix to keep the bullets slick enough for shooting hard cast made from the 60-mid 80's tire weights (family owned a service shop so we had 1000's of them) They took stuff out of them in modern wheel weights so you have to add the missing mix from years ago. But the cast bullets in 44 mag could shoot through two cylinders of an engine block or complete pass through of frig. or freezer. Fun to make, I helped make bullets from about 13( 1984) until his passing in 2003.
I guess I'm getting old too since I've shot many calibers and all styles of rifles and i just go back to that old 1950 winchester 70 in 270 which is coming on 100yrs as my go to rifle. Thanks again for all your videos
My first rifle was a 6.5x55 grandfather had it sported for me I have killed a lot of deer with it over the last 25 years and I can’t count the number of first deer have been killed with it
Good gracious, you are missing the point. It isn't loaded hotter in any commercial loads and it isn't recommended in the loading manuals. That makes it less then the Creedmoor for almost every person going to buy a new rifle.
The point is people who buy Creedmoors, say, for the main game like F class, are reloaders; people using only factory ammo are not in the reloading game. The issue only comes up with handloaders. They realize the CR chamber is weaker than the Swede chamber, thinner walled. And yet SAMMI says 62K for one, and 46K for the other. I have never seen the point to having the highest possible pressures in handloads, that is what magnums deliver within pressure limits. But the idea you should treat the Swede as though you owned a 125 year old rifle, is also silly. People who can sued just can't, and shouldn't say that though. And smart people reading them know exactly what they would say off line.
Regarding bullet stabilization. Back in the early 1900's, there was a book, The Bullet's Fight From Powder to Target (I forget who the author was,, but he inherited a bunch of money and set about researching ballistics back in the early days of the science using a Pope muzzle loader if I recall right, an early target rifle.) Putting up a bunch of paper targets in front of the muzzle, he saw that the bullets in fact had a tapering spiral trajectory. I.e., your 7mm mag may shoot a 3 inch group at 100 yards and the same 3 inch group at 300 yards. The bullet "stabilized" at the longer range, and the result was a tapering air spiral. I have seen the same from a bench in a 338 Winchester, less noticeable in a 270 Winchester from the bench at a couple hundred yards. Most shooting at a bench is done from 100 yards, so you do not see the air spiral effect of stabilization, so people go to faster twists. That and better bullets makes tie air spiral less conspicuous.
When referring to the 5.56 has the diameter of the bullet or bore diameter, what matters is the fact that 5.56 is the dimension stamped on the rifle as the cartridge size. And as you said unless you're a hand loader this doesn't really matter to a standard shooter who does not.
Hi Ron, like your videos. There are multiple loadings for the swede. Old 1898 loading, more modern loading for 6.5x55SE. Then, the modern action higher pressure loading of the 6.5x55SE(SKAN) giving a 140 grn sierra gameking loaded with re26 a velocity of 2850fpz out of a 21.5 inch barrel shooting 0.325 inch groups at 110 yards.
The 8.6 does use a 1/3 twist. It was initially worked up to a 1/2 twist, however, non-monolithic bullets would come apart at such a fast twist rate. This is why it was backed off to 1/3.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on ammunition loadings and dimensions. The issues you address make a powerful impact on the safety of loaders and shooters.
The mixing of different powders can be extremely dangerous. Fast burn rate powders Can speed up the combustion of dense slow rate powders causing extream pressures.
I think an Mauser 98 is fully capable of being used for an 7PRC. Ron was going by the standard bolt face but that can be milled larger to accommodate your case and you could rebarrel. Plenty of Mauser and old Springfiel 1903 and the old M1917 rifles have been made into the largest of cartridges and calibers.
These actions were used with the 8x63 which is basically a twin of the 8mm-06. If it can handle a 220 grain bullet at 2500 fps, it certainly can handle a 156 grainer at 2800.
I'm with Ron: yes, if you have a magnum action. no rebarreling was mentioned, so he may just be thinking of having the bolt face and chamber reamed to accept the 7PRC. to me, that seems quite inadvisable, as this would imply the rifle was initially a 7mm mauser, with a pressure cap of 56k, while 7prc is 65k, plus, a larger case diameter meaning less metal to contain the pressure post reaming. if it's an OLD mauser action, lots of 7mm mauser chambered ones were "small ring" and not all that strong, and lacked some of the modern safety features.
Ron, you need to do all the big Safari's while you still can. You will get too old to do it soon enough, so suffer through the flight and get over there and have fun and get all the memories that you can. When you get really old you will be glad you did. You look like you're still in pretty good shape now. You know how fast time flies after 50.
6.5 Creedmoor is a necked-down .308 cartridge caliber. The metric equivalent of this round is 6.5X51 (7.62X51 is .308 ). The overall length of the brass is .158 inches longer in the 6.5X55 meaning more powder can be loaded. As all reloaders know loads can be developed for the intended purpose of their rifles. I have several 6.5mm rifles including a custom-built (done by myself) 6.5-06 ( I used knecked .25-06 brass as standard brass is not available for this cartridge ) using a 1956 Winchester model 70 action. Using a 140gr Berger Long Range Target match grade bullet I can achieve 3050 fps bullet velocity. MORE POWERFUL is a subject phrase. The calculation for Force (if this is meant to be power) is Mass (bullet weight) X Velocity. A somewhat forgotten 6.5mm round is the 6.5X50 used in the Type 38 Japanese Arizaka rifle. I have built 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5X55 Swede rifles using Mauser 98 actions. The Mauser 98 action set the standard for bolt action rifles. The Springfield 1908 is a copy of this action as is the Winchester Model 70 and to some degree the Remington Model 700. The Mauser Model 98 actions were machined from a solid rectangular piece of steel and the front recoil lug is machined into the action and not placed between the barrel and action as the Remington Model 700 does. Loads can be developed to satisfy a person's individual needs. Anyone that hunts knows that bullet placement is the most important aspect.
What about Mauser's first smokeless cartridge? The 7.65X53mm ? That preceeded the 7.92X57.... What year did this 8mm Danish rimmed cartridge, come out?
Can't say Dan is wrong, because he's not. I do think there's a bit of OCD going on (maybe he's a design engineer? They all tend to be compulsive about measurements). Having said that, this is simply a continuation of different naming systems that started before the Civil War. The Europeans tend to use bore size before rifling. Americans tend to use groove size after rifling. And to top it all off, both systems get mixed together randomly in an unpredictable manner. Toss in the British and American tendency to "round off" numbers (270 being actually 277, etc), and you have a jigsaw puzzle. You have summed it up nicely, Ron, namely just know the proper diameter for your bullets.
That was very well said Ron. I shoot a 6.5x55 Swede and yes factory loads are very anemic. Most of us that handload already know that this rifle will outperform the Creedmoor, but with handloads. Most of the comments on here come from those that only read the title of the video. You explained what you meant very well and it was not inaccurate.
Thank you Quad. Alas, too many of us read too little or comprehend poorly what we read before commenting. Human nature, I guess. In our instant gratification culture we are not taught to pause, think, and consider before spitting out an answer or criticism.
For cameras, a professional photographer told me in the mid-'70s, get a body to do what you want it to do and put all your money into the lenses. That's where the photo is taken. The back is only there to hold the firm and the lens in position to each other, not withstanding the modern cameras that do so much more today.
Exactly what I've taught since the late 1970s. Of course, modern digital cameras use computer magic to do so much more than film and lenses alone used to do. Remove backgrounds, adjust exposure mistakes by 3 stops or more, change color hue, even sharpen poor focus! And being able to set ISO as high as 3,200 without excessive noise frees us from tripods to a large degree.
The 6.5 *55 is the smalest legal cartrage for moose here in norway.They just updated the law for copper bullets.(120gr 2200J @ 100m) Tikka Sako and Blaser chaber for it.I just got a Tikka T3X. Its like our 308. you will find ammo all over here.Go to VV homepage and see 65.55 SCAN and you will get loaddata for modern actions.
What is called ''moose'' in Scandinvia is not what a MOOSE is in North America. Moose in Norge are closer to cariboo or elk in North America. Elk is on the edge of what 6.5x55 can handle and only inside of 200 yards with an ideal broadside shot using a 140 grain Nosler Partition.
I believe 7.5 Swiss is older than any of the German/Mauser cartridges. SAAMI tends to have mil surplus loads safe for the weakest common action chambered in that cartridge. 6.5 Swedish Mauser can be handloaded with more energy than 6.5 Creedmoor, but as Creedmoor is a much newer load, factory loads are hotter.
You can also have steeper twists on 6.5x55, however that will hurt the heavier hunting bullets (156gr) used in the nordics and used to be the minimum for use with Moose, red deer and bear. With monoliths that's not as bad anymore, since Sweden allows them for heaviest game with lower weights.
@@warrengreen3217 It is who you are using as a loading formula source that matters. And what you are loading for. If you were loading for an AR10 action, functioning the rifle would be the major constraint.
Many fine options. All around for deer starts with 243 Win and extends into most bottlenecked 30s. Throw elk, moose, bears, African plains game into equation and 30-06 and 7mm Rem Mag. category does nicely. Despite how often I pooh pooh the 308 Win., it's an excellent all around with the added benefit of abundant and versatile ammo choices.
I have both the 6.5 Swede and 6.5 Creed. For me the 6.5 Creed has been a partial disappointment because its performance has been generously inflated. The typical velocity I get from 22" barrel is 2600 fps for 140-143 gr bullets (Premium factory ammunition). My favourite 6.5x55 load is the Norma with 140gr Nosler Partition which is advertised at 2690 fps (60 cm or 23.6" test barrel) but it fires at 2700+ fps on average out of my 22.4" Tikka T3X barrel. With reloading the Swede wins hands down. In EU the CIP specs for the 6.5 Swede allow 4000 PSI more than SAAMI and that, I assume, is because of the large amount of old rifles around in the US. US factory loads are anaemic, except for the Hornady Superformance and some custom loads, for this reason. In Europe those old rifles are still around but are not modified, get velocity at low pressure thanks to the 29" barrel and are not used for hunting. People using old rifles also reload for them. One point about reloading the 6.5 Swede for modern rifles is that it is really usable at 55K PSI, can go a bit beyond showing no sign of pressure and can be extremely accurate at the same time. I can't say the same about the 6.5 Creed. Anyway, they are both very good cartridges but if one wants more velocity out of the Creed to match the Swede, a long barrel is necessary. The higher max pressure is not really a great benefit, IME. The .260 Remington also has more performance than the 6.5 Creed.
I agree with you Ron I've a hand load for Vermont shooting and won't change to the new cartridges as mine boes the job and had done this last 30 years but I like reading and looking at new gear.
The 6.5 Skidrow is a great cartridge for ignorant people who have never heard of the 6.5x55mm. And in a modern rifle, the 6.5x55 can be handloaded to be MORE POWERFUL than the Skidrow.
Much of the discussion of scopes and barrels regarding rifle accuracy is fine, but the key point to consider is familiarity. Practice, practice, practice. Our ancestors did some remarkable distance shooting without glass optics at all. Key is practice.
Good to know that 6.5 is the next shortage of Barnes TTSX 😜 at the Moment in Germany most retailers have Hornady CX & ECX at Stock and Barnes TTSX before they are gone i will make an order to avoid what happend to me in 8mm i have waited 9 month to get Bullets for my Rifle
Sellier & Bellot makes a 120 grain "Exergy" tipped copper bullet load for the 6.5x55SE. Shows a mv of 2800 and bc of .414. Check with your ammunition supplier to see if they can order you some.
Good episode Ron , I know you dont advocate ignoring book maxes and dictate pressure maxes . Yet with the 6.5x55 I have taken Randy's advice and have found pressure max for my modern rifle. Then backed off 5%. And have impoved on the balistic remarkably . One thing about the sweed is when you think youhave found a slow enough powder , drop down to the next slowest and keep the chamber pressure spikes down .
@@RonSpomerOutdoors I understand Ron . In these litigious times . And to be frank we are dealing with a controlled explosion every time we pull the trigger . And it is a fact that a lot of poeple should not! I repeat should not ! go any further then buying a packet of cartridges . Its is far simpler and safer to buy a different calibre/ cartridge combination .
20:15 - I don't think the Pressures are such an issue, just look at the 30-06 vs 308. There exists the same pressure difference in the case but the 30-06 still shoots faster, all be it by 150fps. The same is true for the 6.5x55 Swede vs the 6.5 Creedmoor... Just load the appropriate powder to get the case fill that will not exceed the pressure... In my Opinion.
The 6.5x55 will outperform 6.5CM if you know how to load for it. The actual maximum pressure for 6.5x55 is 55,000psi, not 52,000psi or 46,000CUP. 6.5x55 in a modern action that is rated for 62,000psi will far outperform 6.5CM at the same pressure. The case holds more powder...
I've said it to Ron before, for handloaders, there should be different sections in reloading manuals for certain cartridges in modern rifles. It's done for the .45-70, why not others?
I don't know why, Jack, but likely lawyerly advice. Don't want to be held responsible for incautious loaders destroying gear and body parts. That said, there are a few +P load cartridges.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors I get that you have to be cautious, but why do reloading manuals have 3 sections for the .45-70 but they can't for other cartridges?
I don't know. Perhaps the 45-70 lobby drove a hard bargain. Probably because Marlin, Winchester, and Henry figured they'd sell more 45-70 lever actions if shooters knew they could crank up the power. And then the Ruger No. 1 shooters jumped into the fray! @@jackalopasaurus
I agree with you Ron, on the bullet time of flight when hunting. Yes, modern equipment has driven the long range game. But the only predictable targets are steel, paper etc. If it has a mind of its own you never know what is truly gonna happen in the moment. I say put down that new easy to shoot equipment. Grab a compound bow. Learn how to hunt, not shoot. And then go back to the easy equipment. Bet it seems more rewarding when you get closer. As I told my son a long time ago it's called hunting not killing. Same as fishing, not catching. Jim from Backfire has a good video about what can go wrong on a not so long distance shot on a deer. I always say the closer the better less variables.
in regards to USA hand loading manuals, they have the 6,5 x 55 at the same power as the 6.5 Creedmore. According to CPI the max pressure is 55,110 psi, according to SAAMI 51,000 psi. Proofing pressure for the original arms were 58,784 psi and 66,132 psi. The third 73,480 psi was dropped. There is also the 6,5 x 55 SCAN standard (Scandinavian) with tighter dimensional tolerances and higher pressure. It has increased head space. Ammunition to the SKAN standard is quite a bit hotter than other factory ammunition and should only be used in rifles with a chamber according to the SKAN standard. Those rifles can use ammunition fabricated to CPI or SAAMI standard. A standard loading: 6,5 x 55 9.1 g (140 gr) DK 870 m/s (2,900 ft/s) 3,440 J (2,540 ft⋅lbf) (Europe) or 9.1 g (140 gr) SP 808 m/s (2,650 ft/s) 2,962 J (2,185 ft⋅lbf) (USA) 6.5 Creedmoore 143 gr (9 g) Hornady ELD-X 2,710 ft/s (830 m/s) 2,283 ft⋅lbf (3,095 J) That are both for factory ammunition.
And SAAMI and CPI did not make up the standards? Why would the Scandinavians need to ask the SAAMI or CPI permission to make a standard about a Scandinavian cartridge? Should it not be the other way round? Compared to other cartridges in the time frame the 6,5 x 55 was straight away designed to a higher pressure than most of the comparable cartridges. The problem with the old mausers and krags is not that they are not build for the higher pressure, but rather age. The proving regimes or the arms were vigorous and they did not run in the problems of exploding rifles like some other countries.
I am at the age where I have seen a lot of trends come and go. The beginning of this century, the RUM cartridges were all the rage. Then it was the WSM's. Now, with the exception of the .300 WSM, they are all seemingly on life support. Some of it was marketing, to sell more arms and ammunition, some of it was honest progress in some people's estimation. Two things that constantly amuse me and make me chuckle, are the statement that the .300 WSM exactly matches the old .300 Winchester Magnum, in fact, both loaded to their potential, it does not. It does match exactly powder capacity wise, the old .300 H&H Magnum, and that's not a bad thing. With 180 grain and heavier bullets, the old "Win mag" has more steam than the WSM, it has more case capacity, simple as that. The other point that makes me laugh is the old belt argument. Back in the day that was the case that was readily available so that's what they used. Is the belt needed today, no, is it a problem, no. And handloaders have been headspacing off of the shoulder from day one. I've handloaded ammo for myself and others, 40+ years at this point, for hunting and competition, belted or beltless, never a problem. The 6.5's are here to stay and that's great, but I think they will eb and flow like any other trend. The .300's kick more, because they are more, simple physics, bigger tool, for bigger jobs. Muzzle brakes are fine for practice, but I don't hunt with them in the field if possible, I've had some negative experiences in that regard, and most guides don't care for them either, but that is a personal preference. Most people with a little practice, can shoot a .300 Magnum of reasonable weight. If it's to much, go with something smaller, accuracy is paramount, always. A Magnum definitely isn't needed in most circumstances. In closing, the .300 Win mag isn't going anywhere, I'll certainly be keeping mine, as well as my old .300 H&H, 7mm Rem mag and many others. Latest and greatest isn't always best, just different. Thankfully we still live in a somewhat free society where we have all these wonderful choices in tools to choose from.
What are some of your favorite factory loads in 6.5x55 Swede for whitetail deer? I recently bought a sporterized 96 Mauser for my grandson to hunt with and was curious what ammo you would recommend
I am using factory RWS 6,5x55 DK 9,1g, its pushing 870 m/s and it should work for whitetails easily. I have used it to harvest red deer does, but would not go for a stag.
My only beef with a fixed 6x is that I have seen clients have trouble locating their target at ranges inside 100 yards. In the northern Rockies you just never know when you step around a big tree and see a bull looking at you 40 yards away in brush or tight lodgepole stands. For that reason I asked clients with variable scopes to hunt with it on its lowest setting and if we found game, adjust the scope upward if needed
The 8x58RD is NOT the parent of the 8x57. The 8x58 is a much fatter cartridge and turning the rim still leaves you with a much fatter cartridge than the 8x57.....When making 8x58 RD most people use 45-90 brass and the resulting cartridge is still a few thousands under size at the head. It still works fine though....I have made, loaded, and fired hundreds of these, so I am not repeating hear say....Some one else is though....
Reason to go with the Creedmor is medium action vs long action necessary for the 6.5 swede unless going for a +120 year old design cock-on-close action. And my first cf bolt gun vas a Sako Hunter in 6,5x55 btw. LH.
Gday Ron... I'm hoping you can help me. I'm from Australia and as such, our gun laws are rather over the top... I'm on the lookout for a rifle... but It must be one of the following actions: bolt action, lever action, pull action, lever release action, or single action revolver in a rifle format... any of these actions are very easy to come across as you know, however, I'm looking for one that is chambered in either 22LR or 22WMR, and that be easily swapped between the 2 different calibres. Are you able to provide any possible answers to this issue? I don't want to have to pull half the gun apart to swap calibres. It's needs to be a gun that can be easily swapped in a matter of minutes, with little to no tools or equipment. Does such a rifle exist?
Hello Ron. Considering the Remington 223 vs the 5.56 NATO, I hear people many times stating that the 5.56 Case is a little longer than the 223 case. According to the Barnes Online Load data, the Case length for BOTH the 223 & 5.56 is 1.750 inches. The 5.56 NATO and .223 commercial brass cases tend to have similar case capacity when measured, with variations chiefly due to brand, not 5.56 vs .223 designation. The result of this is that there is no such thing as "5.56 brass" or ".223 brass", the differences in the cartridges lie in pressure ratings and in chamber throat length, not in the shape or thickness of the brass. The 5.56 mm NATO chambering, known as a NATO or mil-spec chamber, has a longer leade, which is the distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the point at which the rifling engages the bullet. SO, the only differences is the increased powder load in the 5.56 cartridge and the increased leade in the 5.56 chamber making the 5.56 not appropriate to be fired in a 223 chambered rifle due to the higher pressure and the possibility of the 5.56 cartridge causing additional increased pressures from the shorter leade in the 223 chambered rifle. Reloading the once fired 5.56 military brass should not cause any problems being fired in a 223 chambered rifle since the cases are identical. Have a great day.
You've got it, Roger. External dimesions of both cases are identical. Internal dimensions vary by manufacturer. Bullet seating depth and throat/lead dimensions are slightly different, but the Wylde chambers designed to work with both are increasing in popularity.
The debate about shooting animals at extended ranges must include more than just the physics and mathematics of whether or not the bullet will hit with enough energy and arrive soon enough. We must also consider the fair chase ethics of shooting an animal from a distance so great that their natural defense mechanisms are incapacitated. What sport is it to shoot an animal from so far away that it cannot see, hear, or smell you? It’s one thing to accomplish those tasks by stalking any animal appropriately, but to defeat an animal’s senses purely with distance, and then to use advanced technology to accomplish that, is not, in my book, sporting. However, that’s just it: it’s my opinion. I think if we really got to debating the distance at which fair chase ends, we would find that it’s probably well within ranges that most of us feel comfortable shooting. I would wager that there’s probably not a whole lot of difference in the ability of animals to perceive a human and whether or not we Pose danger between 200 yards and 1000 yards. I guess, for me, it also matters how much effort the Hunter put in to trying to get closer. I feel that there is a big difference between not being able to get closer than five or 600 yards due to terrain features, as compared to choosing to make a shot from that range when you could have closed the distance relatively easily. That’s my 2 cents. Keep up the good work! I really enjoy your content, and listening to you you present it!
Doesn’t seem likely they would copy Denmark as their 1888 commission rifle fired the patrone 88 and was adopted before the danish rifle was. More than likely copied the Swiss. For that matter, there was already multiple bottlenecked 8mm cartridges in 1886.
I know of people that shoot black powder that would load shells and put a few grains of smoke less in the cartridge and then put the black powder in said to get a better ignition
Good way to blow up a gun. A few grains of Unique in a blackpowder Colt SAA may be enough to do it on its own - no amount of smokeless in a gun not designed for it is bad news. Stupid thing to do.
The Swedish Mausers were built of extroadirarily tough steel. I had to rebarrel my Swedish M96 FSR because it was a target rifle that probably had 100K rounds shot through it, the throat was completely shot out. The Barrel had been on that rifle for 120 years so I couldn't remove the barrel without taking off some of the barrel at the receiver to get the barrel off. That very high grade steel with vanadium added was so tough that it actually chewed up a couple of carbide bits (Although Chinese made bought through Amazon). It now has a target CG80 barrel on it in beautiful condition. My point is that the Swedish 120 YO steel was some of the toughest steel I have ever machined. It is actually a very strong and durable rifle. Although I wouldn't recommend filling a case full of Bullseye and expecting it not to explode.
Husqvarna chambered their M96’s in 30-06 and 9.3x62 for years with no problems. I have one of the WWII era M96 9.3x62 that the previous owner took several Cape buffalo with. Husqvarna trusted it, he and many others trusted that Swedish steel against dangerous game. What more can be said?
@@davewinter2688 I still have pieces of that old barrel in my garage. The steel is so tough that I was thinking of taking it to a knife maker and having a custom knife built out of that barrel. I have machined stainless and other steels with no problem, but that old Swedish mauser steel is the toughest stuff I have ever worked on- besides a titanium piece that I tried to machine and finally had to cut it with a ceramic chop saw that burned out just before finishing the cut. It is now a reinforcement for the base of my Nacra catamaran mast. I didn't like the original design. The new/old CG80 barrel is a beautiful piece with a globe target sight. It is now a high-end target rifle although unfortunately to wide to put in my original rare FSR stock which was a shame. But with the custom stock I built for it still a beautiful rifle. Original CG80's go for a fortune but were just M96 actions with a target barrel and sights, and some trigger work but my M96 FSR trigger is no slouch. I bought a target Timney trigger to put on it but the original FSR trigger was actually better.
@@ChetJang I'm not familiar with those model numbers but I'm not a target shooter, just an old hunter. Were those rifles related in any way to the M41 sniper rifles?
I'd save some money and get a Howa Super Lite; I've got a .308 and it is shooter, weighing in at under 6lbs with a 3.5-10 Leupold. Or keep your budget the same and spend more on better glass.
@jmgates09 That's a good choice too; I don't think you will be disappointed. I've got a mini carbon stalker in Grendel and it is good shooter as well. I bought it for my grandkids to use eventually and I think it is going to be great. My daughter killed a big doe with it last year; pass through and down quick. It's what made me start wanting the .308.
I think the whole thing about twist rate is driven by non lead bullets, which need to be longer for the same weight, so that some twist rates might be too slow for the heavier hunting non lead bullets. For instance, the 1/12 of the .308 is very much on the low end for heavy non lead hunting bullets.
Fedster, copper bullets certainly drive a need for faster twists, but they are not the main driving force. The lead core, secant ogive, long boattail bullets designed for maximum B.C. (Berger, Hornady ELD, Nosler AB Long Range, etc.) started the trend. Copper bullets from the late 1980s on have been made to work in standard twists for most calibers. This is why the early coppers were never offered in the weights of the heaviest lead cores of the time.
I have a question. I'm in need of some 6.5 x 55 S soft point, very hard to come by. Could I in theory pull a 6.5 x 55 FMJ bullet and put a 6.5 creed soft point or like a 140 gr hornady in the case instead. PLS I need some 6.5 goodness.
In regard to the 6.5 Swede M96, its a helluva a lot stronger advertised. I am loathe to admit to this, but i missed charging a 6.5x55 load. Went to the range and the squib pushed the bullet down the bore just on the primer's combustion. I missed that point and fired again. The first bullet was pushed out by compressing the airspace by the second bullet. Both bullets went down range. My son commented on this. The action was locked up by flowing brass, got it open, brass foil everywhere. Primer had been shoved back inside the bolt. After tearing it down, 27:35 had it MagnaFluxed, no cracks, bolt setback or stretching. Still shoots accurately. According to a ballistics lab, the pressure exceded 80K PSI. Didnt chronograph that one. I don't believe there is a great difference between the two cartridges. I have another 6.5Swede built on a VZ24. I have used warmer than specified loads in it. Chrono sez it will meet and safely exceed 6.5 CM. Take all the potshots at this diatribe as you please, just remember "been there, done that, no free t-shirt". I'm not putting out all the numbers to discourage experimentation that may not turn out so well.
The 6.5 Swede has a larger case, so it is POSSIBLE to load it faster, but max recommended pressures will be exceeded. Even the newer higher pressure CIP loads for the 6.5x55 SE/SKAN (new rifles only) max out around 55,000 psi vs the 63,000 for the Creedmoor using the European test method. In the US, SAAMI-spec loads are 51,000 psi for the 6.5x55 and 62,000 for the Creedmoor. It is that difference in pressure that allows the Creedmoor to do so well. In addition, even the Scandinavian countries recommend lower pressure loads in M1896 and Krag rifles. In modern rifles that meet the SE or SKAN specs, the CIP max pressure is raised, but only to around 55,000psi, still less than that of the Creedmoor.
Swede is great but Creedmoor case is just a better design....probably the best hence the 6 creed 6.5...7...300PRCs all same concept n now 22 creed Hornaday us gonna ride that horse till they can't no more I hope they make a 25prc and not a creed
@@jmgates09 That is probably right. Dave Emery and other Hornady designers have been on the YT podcast and have talked about their "formula". It involves a section of tight freebore (typically over .1" long), minimizing taper, using 30° shoulders (steeper tends to increase scrap rate), and optimized propellants. Their close relationship with propellant manufacturers (especially St. Marks) is a large part of the performance from their ammo. It is interesting to note that three of their first cartridges were marketplace failures, though. The 30 TC, 300 RCM and 338 RCM didn't catch on. Afterwards, they apparently decided to concentrate on optimizing for long range designs, primarily optimizing for long, high-BC bullets. That's why the 6.5 Creedmoor and later cartridges use faster twist than their American predecessors.
Ron, is there a difference in case head diameter t'wixt the 6.5 Creedmoor, and the 6.5 × 55 Swede service round? Does the Swede cartridge fall into the same case-head family as 7×57, .30-06, etc? Thank you for your work!
Another factor to consider is that old military ammo are loaded with weaker charges of powder to be safe and prevent accidents related to weapons in bad conditions. So ....the Swedish Mauser 6.5x 55 can and will out perform the 6.5 vremore.
On a different note, what gives you the most return when I listen to the podcast? I normally listen on youtube, but you might prefer people use a different platform.
The longer the lens, the more stable and expensive you’ll need your tripod to be. The tripod is more important than most people give it credit for. Also, regarding 6.5 Swede vs 6.5 CM, my reloading manual lists the highest velocity with a 140 gr bullet as 2501 for the CM vs 2556 for the Swede. Is that enough difference to be a difference? You be the judge, but please stop telling people that the creedmoor beats the Swede in velocity. It doesn’t. As I said in a previous comment, the Swede it out ahead of the CM by around 50fps. The Swede has a slightly slower twist rate (1:8.7 vs 1:8 if memory serves and it probably doesn’t) and it’s a long action. Also, it has an older case design so, maybe the CM beats it in some respects as to consistency and, therefore, potential accuracy. There are plenty of other reasons to choose the creedmoor, not the least of which is rifle and ammo availability, but power is not one of those reasons. The Swede may have a lower safe pressure limit, but it has a lot more case capacity, so that’s expected. Pressure limits don’t determine ultimate muzzle velocity across different cases and case capacities. The manual I’m reading right now is the second edition Lee modern reloading.
There are old loadings of the 6.5x55 (i.e made for the krag), and there are modern loads. The modern loads can safely beat the creedmoor in energy, but americans use only the old loadings.
Dear Ron. A big “Hello there” from the U.K., Hertfordshire to be more precise. I love your videos and blogs and watch them all as they arrive in my RUclips viewer and appreciate your generally accurate and entertaining information concerning cartridges and bullets in particular. However, we are ALL just humans and can occasionally be a tad off-centre with our accuracy. A case in point here is where you continually say that the venerable 120+ year old 6.5x55 Swedish cartridge is lower powered than the modern, sub 20 year old 6.5mm Creedmoor! On YOUR side of The Pond it is most certainly produced as a factory round with rather anaemic power in deference (it is said??) to the EQUALLY AGED 1896 Mauser like actions. For that type of Old Boy rifle I would agree it is better to ere on the gentle side of chamber pressures and hence projectile velocities. But why hobble EVERYONE and every make of rifle in deference to just a few beautiful but definitely antique firearms that few people actually own and less, shoot!?? HOWEVER, take a look at some of the modern ammunition made by NORMA and especially by LAPUA and I think you will find their rounds stepping up the chamber pressures and hence velocities that are EASILY handled within our modern rifles - like my Tikka t3 “Sporter” heavy barrel rifle! I know for certain that LAPUA produce a modern bullet (target) loading using target grade 123gr projectiles - Lapua Scenars I think - that come out of a good 24” barrel at approaching 3,050 to 3,100 fps which I think exceeds the 6.5 Creedmoor factory offerings in that bullet weight. I handload for my 6.5x55 Swede rifle and regularly get over 2,900fps from my 139gr Scenar loads in a new 26” barrel without excessive pressure signs. Try doing THAT in the modern upstart on a regular basis…. I sometimes wonder if the old 6.5mm Swede rounds weren’t artificially kept neutered to not compete directly with the much vaunted .270 Win rounds which, if the Swede was loaded more sensibly, would have had a really serious contender to compete in the market place against , in the USA!? Ha!! Keep your great work and marvellously entertaining videos coming Ron! Best Seasonal Wishes to you and Family. Steve M.
I used a fixed scope, the x4 SUSAT sight on the L85A1 and A2 for several years. I could hit head sized targets 6 times out of 10 at 500 yds. So a x6 would be fine
If that rifle turns your crank, go for it, but I see no advantage to it over, say, a Browning Auto or an AR10 in 308 Win., 7mm-08, 6.5 CM, or even 243 Win. The lighter kicking rounds should enable faster recovery for followup shots. I doubt you'll get many opportunities for multiple shots at wolves, but one 10-round mag. might prove useful on rare occasions. During decades of pretty intense coyote hunting I had perhaps 2 chances at more than 3 coyotes in one session. During a dozen far north sheep hunts, plus numerous caribou, muskox, moose, and bear hunts in wolf country, I've haven't seen a wolf under my scope reticles!
Crazy how angry and Butt hurt people get when thinking they are trying to correct you😂😂 you do a great job dealing with snowflakes that melt down daily😂 love your podcast! Keep it up and maybe we can go on a hunt soon
Ain't that the truth. Forums are loaded with people that are ready to jump down your throat for not doing things or thinking of things the "right" way (i.e. their way). There's more than one way to skin a cat, and no matter how you do it, the end result is always the same. A skinned cat.
Ron, to say that "all" commercial loadings in the Swede have less pressure is a bit off putting when European loadings are a good deal higher. I've heard the rationale for this difference being stated as due to the "older" rifles chambered in 6.5 x 55 but unless Swedish steel in a Mauser rifle has some articulable half life maybe the Krag rifles in the same chambering with their single locking lug is a better explanation. The best reason to not hot rod a Swede is that you don't need or want to, if a guy is looking in that direction he has missed the unique qualities of the cartridge that have caused it to be said that the swede punches over it's weight class for over a century now.
Your analysis could be spot on, Randy. Who knows precisely why MAP for the Swede is as low as it is. Likely a combination of late 19th century steels, rifle designs, new smokeless powders... The point is most factory ammo is loaded "mild" compared to venerable rounds like 270 Win. And, yes, Euro manufacturers usually load hotter than U.S. Fear of lawsuits, no doubt.
Ron first off your content is always thought provoking and you are usually spot on. Frazier on the other hand is someone I would completely disagree with. Legality is certainly a concern in any hunting situation but it’s not the only or even the most important concern in my opinion. An excellent scope, a fantastic rifle and a terrific shooter don’t make a bullet get there any faster or lessen wind effect. There are just too many things that can go wrong or change in the time of flight to be shooting at game animals at six or seven hundred yards. The animal could just decide to turn just before the trigger is pulled causing a miss at best or wounded animal that may suffer for weeks before a needless death and wasted animal. Not something I’m willing to risk legal or otherwise.
No one mentions finding the animal. Traveling up and down terrain for 600 yards takes time, and then you got to find the spot , and the tracking begins.
Good information for anyone watching and wanting to learn. I don't mean any disrespect but you are around 30 years older than me and I have been loading for a long time. Now after that jab, hahaha! My dad and I have built Wildcats with great results for varmints. My dad has tried so many different cartridges for game it's not even funny. This is where it does get funny, I still hunt with a 270win mostly all the time in the west but he has to make some sort of weird thing and at the end I've had to put more in ice chest than he has over a long time. My dad did get the chance to go to Africa awhile back and out of all the options he had two different 30-06 was his choice for plains game. It's hard to beat what works. Hopefully he can go back and take a 270 of mine, just for the reason he said I gotta have at least a 30 or 338. He's not lying either I watched him shoot a mule deer with a 338 hunting with it for the soul porpuse of what will it do.
6.5CM is the best choice for the American market. It was designed to duplicate M96 Swedish Mauser (long rifle) performance In the rest of the world, 6.5x55 is the better choice. My handloaded 6.5x55 out of a M96 23.6 inch barrel can outperform commercial 6.5CM ammunition, and the barrel will retain it's fine accuracy for about 6,000 rounds, and the brass can last up to 20 reloadings. For myself, it is a very well balance design and a very sensible cartridge. 6.5x55 SKAN in modern rifles will greatly outperform 6.5CM by as much as 200 fps in what is now the standard barrel length considered to be ideal for hunting. Unfortunately the general public is not aware these facts making emphatic statements common place.
Even the published load data in my Nosler manual has the 6.5x55 slightly more powerful than the 6.5 Creedmoor. Not sure where Ron is getting his data from. I have slowly worked up RL 22 handloads with 140gr bullets and the 6.5x55 can hit PRC speeds in a modern action without pressure signs, but I am most accurate at 46.5 gr so that is what I hunt with as it is more than powerful enough and printing sub 1/2 MOA groups. If you cannot cleanly kill it with a 140gr at 2780fps you really need to work on your aim.
Check out the 22-250 Rem., 220 Swift, 223 WSSM, 22 Nosler, 22 Valkyrie, 6mm ARC, 6.5 Grendel, 257 Roberts. But make sure 22-calibers are legal in the state you hunt.
@@tomslongguns443 22 creedmoor could be a good option as well. It’s not saami approved yet but hornady did put in for it, it’s available as a wildcat right now. So it depends on your time frame if it’s an option. The best way to reduce recoil of a 243, is a better fitting rifle. Things like new recoil pads and suppressors or muzzle brakes can make a massive difference. My 7 rem mag has less recoil then my 270, using the old 270 year after year I never noticed how hard the pad had gotten. New limb saver pad on it and it was a whole different rifle.
Ron, I really appreciate your humility and grace in reading and responding to critical messages, especially where those messages, whether right or wrong on the facts, are less gracious and humble.
Thanks Joshua. I used to argue and get defensive, but years ago I realized a respectful approach dials down the temperature and helps everyone behave more politely. A lot of harsh criticism is a reflection of our coarse cultural, the aping of "what everyone else is doing." Monkey see, monkey do is, unfortunately, an apt description of most human behavior. So the more of us who treat others with respect, the more of us who'll grow respectful. Now if only we could convince politicians of this.
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@@RonSpomerOutdoors Well said Ron 👍
Ron, I wanted to sincerely thank you for all the knowledge you provide. You are the best in the business when it comes to ballistic and hunting knowledge, in my opinion
Why, thank you for that nice compliment, Drake. Wishing you all the best.
Thank you Ron for the clarity and the humility in your responses. I certainly agree with you on the comparison between 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5x55 Swede.
Comparing factory load velocity between 6.5 Creed and 6.5x55, the velocities are very close, even from European ammunition manufacturers like Norma and Sako. In some factory loadings, 6.5 Creed actually has more muzzle velocity for equal weight bullet…150+ fps in some instances. The SAAMI MAP spec for 6.5x55 is 46,000 CUP (51,834 psi) and the European CIP MAP spec is 48,163 CUP (55,114 psi). These modern 6.5x55 140 grain loads can reach up to 2750 FPS…not a huge performance gain over 6.5 Creed. The higher stated CIP standard is designed for modern actions only (Sako, Tikka, Sauer etc). Some shooters will try these modern loads in the older Mauser actions with no issues, but the manufacturers and load manuals will not support it. Some shooters also bring up the proof pressure of 6.5x55 SE rifles. You should never fire a rifle at the proof pressure. That pressure is for factory testing only. This places too much stress on the action and introduces safety issues. For reference, CIP proof pressure on 6.5 Creedmoor is close to 79,000 psi! The 6.5 Creedmoor SAAMI MAP spec is 62,000 psi and CIP MAP spec is 63,091 psi. The majority of factory 6.5 Creedmoor loads operate at greater pressure and greater velocity than the 6.5x55. The Swede has a slight advantage if hand loading is involved, due to greater powder capacity, but the 6.5 Creedmoor wins in terms of general factory offerings.
Thank you, Thomas. Yes, the Swede, with its volume advantage over the CM, can be the top dog except for those old MAPs and safety concerns. Mostly it't the more extensive factory loadings that make the CM the more reasonable choice for most shooters. Handloaders, of course, march to a different drummer.
Thank you, Ron. The Creedmoor is certainly a versatile and reasonable option in today's market. Thank you for all the informative videos. I always learn a great deal from your RUclips channel and podcast. It has inspired me to be a better reloader, marksman and hunter. - Thomas @@RonSpomerOutdoors
Thanks for all you do!
The 6.5x55 can be loaded much hotter closer to 6.5 PRC in modern rifle. As for 8 mm there's a modern blaser caliber namely 8.5x55 and the ballistics looks amazing,even better than the new 7 PRC unfortunately only available in very expensive Blaser rifles.Ron could you do a comparison of the 8.5x55 Vs ...
Thank you Ron for another informative video. Always a pleasant evening when you are on the screen.
Thank you, Matt.
As a hunter from northern Europe I see lot of young generation to getting "tactical" and search those extreme long range under .30 cal rifles, even thou we are in the middle of a forest and shooting distances for big game usually is from 0-100 meters. I live in Finland right next to Russia, so that is probably part of a reason for that. I respect highly your approach of things, without making statements with "I know it all" attitude like young bloggers. It is nice that you know about hunting/shooting outside U.S. and handle even bit funny "facts" in a gentlemanly way. 👌
Well here goes my sermon on a couple of things. The SAAMI specs for 6.5x55 are ridiculously low. Based on un founded beliefs that the M96 action was not strong enough. I have a Husqvarna 9.3x62 Mauser built on a M96 action exactly the same as the 6.5x55 Swede. Husqvarna chambered 30-06 and other higher pressure cartridges for years on the M96 action with no problems. I have one of the “Sporterized by Kimber” Carl Gustaf M96 6.5x55. Mine has its original barrel which was shortened to 22” and the steps turned down . The original twist on the Swede was 1/7.5. Plenty good for any 6.5mm/.264 bullets that I know of. I’m not dumb enough to try to turn it into a 264 Win Mag or 6.5-06 but it can be hand loaded to equal or exceed the Creedmoor with no problems. The long action of the Swede make it possible to seat the bullet farther out to take full advantage of the 6.5x55 case capacity. Of course you still have to pay attention to pressure signs as any good hand loader knows. Besides visual inspection a micrometer to measure case expansion is your friend.
The same things can be said about the anemic factory loadings for the 7x57 Mauser. The original 173 grain military load for the 7x57 in the model 93 Mauser action was 50,370 CUP which translates to a little over 58,000 psi. Once again you’re not going to equal a 7 REM mag or 7mm PRC but you can safely get results equal or better than the 7mm-08 especially with 160-175 grain bullets. For interesting informative reading see Mike Hudson’s article entitled “Mauser: Small Ring, Big Controversy” at chuckhawks.com.
Well said n let's not forget the 8x57 n 257 Roberts are underloaded as well.
For basically same reason.
So called weak actions n or bores on 8mm while some truth to that. There is no reason why a 6.5 x55 6.5x57 7x57 8x57 or Roberts should top out 45to 48 psi while a modern action 06 308 or Crapmoore tops out at 58 to 60 PSI.Not to confuse the often CUP # with PSI #.
Wish the reloading company's would do higher pressure loads for them today as Hodgdon did once for the Ruger 1 77 Rem700 n Win 70 back in the 80s for the 7x57..
Most have no issues with hotter data for 45/70 for modern rifles.
@@michaelwilson9986I was going to mention the BOB and the 300 Savage but Utube cut off the length of my sermon. I have the SAAMI specs downloaded. Oddly C.U.P for 8x57 is 37000 but PSI using the piezo transducer method is only 35000. That may be because of the fear that a .323 diameter bullet may be loaded in one of the original rifles with the .318 diameter bore. Viewers unfamiliar with the difference between the C.U.P and piezo transducer pressure measuring systems should look it up. The most recent SAAMI standards for both methods can be downloaded in one document. The European CIP standards can also be found. One caution is that there is no totally accurate method for converting CUP to the more accurate piezo transducer PSI method because the copper crusher cannot detect the pressure spikes that the piezo transducer can.
The name of the cartrigde is just 6,5x55. Not «swede». It is a Norwegian and Swedish design.
SAAMI and CIP have made up pressure standards by themselves. Norway and Sweden are not members of either organization.
@@tbo2307I know that. Did you not notice that I referred to it as the 6.5x55 in my opening paragraph? The 6.5 Swede or just the Swede is a colloquialism most often used in reference to the Carl Gustaf M96, M38 and M41 rifles just as the 30-06 is often referred to as just the ‘06 and the Norwegian designed/U.S. adopted Krag-Jorgensen rifle is usually just referred to as a 30-40 Krag which is what some of Teddy Roosevelts Rough Riders were armed with, but that’s another story. There were Krag-Jorgensen rifles chambered in 6.5x55. In the U.S. they are scarce as hens teeth (another colloquialism) and although smooth actions, were clumsy to load and decidedly weaker than the Swedish Mauser actions.
The subject of the discussion was the relative comparisons of the 6.5 Creedmoor vs the 6.5x55. The Utube forum is not a scholarly journal requiring proper grammar and syntax as if one was writing a thesis for a Masters Degree. As such I will continue to refer to the 6.5x55 cartridge as the Swede or other such descriptions for convenience in comments that are relevant to the discussion at hand. You may speak or write of it however you wish.
It’s not that the belief that the m96 action is weak ( I have one) it’s the truth that the krag Jorgensen action is weak. The 6.5 Swede was chambered in both
The 6.5 x 55 Sweede is like our .45-70. We have modern spicey loads and loads safe for older rifles.
ya and the .25 acp is like the .44 mag. It's really all about shot placement
@@ericvantassell6809Well, if you look at case capacity you'll notice that the old 6.5 x 55 is a lot bigger. Now which one do you think you can load the hottest? The smaller CM or the larger Swede?
@@ericvantassell6809 I don't think you understood the point being made here
@@danielpope6498I think you're the only one that understands the point you "made".
@@CrotalusKid I didn't make a point. The above person doesn't understand the original comment and obviously neither do you.
While I do have opinions on several of the topics from this video, I choose only to say that I really dig you as a human being Ron. Keep on keeping on at being you; you're doing a pretty good job from what I've seen.
Thanks Kevin. But don't hesitate to challenge me on anything important that you think I got wrong. I truly do want to provide accurate, solid info. Opinions always welcomed!
The podcasts just get better and better, for a younder man who is really delving into hunting it has been an invaluable source of information and entertainment keep up all the good work and thanks for all you do!
Thanks Lucas. Glad you're finding value in them. Thanks for watching.
The quite recent Hornady Podcast on twistrates shines some lights on the advantages AND trade offs of changing twist rates compared to saami standard.
Ron- blake from beautiful big sky wyoming.
Love your podcasts. So so much. Youre a gem to us all.
Dont need to reply but remember cast bullets we oversize a few tho and cast and coated bullets too for better seal.
Pistol and rifle the same.
But Usually for us handloaders we see this wyen se buy bulk cast m coated bullets.
Itd be nice to hear a podcast on howcto make high pressure cast bullets. Coated vs gas checks vs both and the max of each, if ur a caster or the know how. Thx. Take care.
Glad u had a great trip
My Dad did his own cast bullets for 3 decades for all the revolvers he had. He used a special wax that you can buy for cast. It worked great. He also used base caps and some power mix to keep the bullets slick enough for shooting hard cast made from the 60-mid 80's tire weights (family owned a service shop so we had 1000's of them) They took stuff out of them in modern wheel weights so you have to add the missing mix from years ago. But the cast bullets in 44 mag could shoot through two cylinders of an engine block or complete pass through of frig. or freezer. Fun to make, I helped make bullets from about 13( 1984) until his passing in 2003.
I have two pet loads for my 6.5x55. One for my 1920 Carl Gustav 96 Mauser, mild. For my Rem 700 a 129 gr. Hornady at 2900 fps.
Bingo
I guess I'm getting old too since I've shot many calibers and all styles of rifles and i just go back to that old 1950 winchester 70 in 270 which is coming on 100yrs as my go to rifle. Thanks again for all your videos
My first rifle was a 6.5x55 grandfather had it sported for me I have killed a lot of deer with it over the last 25 years and I can’t count the number of first deer have been killed with it
What ammo you been using sellier and Bellot 156 gr soft point or 140
Leupold Vx-freedom 4-12x is about 13-14 oz if I remember right. Inexpensive scope but still very good.
Thanks a million for all these videos. For what it's worth i have a 458wm on a K98 with very little mods on the bolt face.
I don't watch cable anymore. Your two channels are all I watch
We appreciate your support!
The 6.5x55 Swede can be loaded to higher velocities than the 6.5 CR in modern rifle.
Lol 🤦♂️
Good gracious, you are missing the point. It isn't loaded hotter in any commercial loads and it isn't recommended in the loading manuals. That makes it less then the Creedmoor for almost every person going to buy a new rifle.
The Swede is underloaded because of many older, weaker rifles out there. SMH
The point is people who buy Creedmoors, say, for the main game like F class, are reloaders; people using only factory ammo are not in the reloading game. The issue only comes up with handloaders. They realize the CR chamber is weaker than the Swede chamber, thinner walled. And yet SAMMI says 62K for one, and 46K for the other. I have never seen the point to having the highest possible pressures in handloads, that is what magnums deliver within pressure limits. But the idea you should treat the Swede as though you owned a 125 year old rifle, is also silly. People who can sued just can't, and shouldn't say that though. And smart people reading them know exactly what they would say off line.
@@HondoTrailside The Swede holds 3-5 grains powder.
Regarding bullet stabilization. Back in the early 1900's, there was a book, The Bullet's Fight From Powder to Target (I forget who the author was,, but he inherited a bunch of money and set about researching ballistics back in the early days of the science using a Pope muzzle loader if I recall right, an early target rifle.) Putting up a bunch of paper targets in front of the muzzle, he saw that the bullets in fact had a tapering spiral trajectory. I.e., your 7mm mag may shoot a 3 inch group at 100 yards and the same 3 inch group at 300 yards. The bullet "stabilized" at the longer range, and the result was a tapering air spiral. I have seen the same from a bench in a 338 Winchester, less noticeable in a 270 Winchester from the bench at a couple hundred yards. Most shooting at a bench is done from 100 yards, so you do not see the air spiral effect of stabilization, so people go to faster twists. That and better bullets makes tie air spiral less conspicuous.
When referring to the 5.56 has the diameter of the bullet or bore diameter, what matters is the fact that 5.56 is the dimension stamped on the rifle as the cartridge size. And as you said unless you're a hand loader this doesn't really matter to a standard shooter who does not.
Imitation is the greatest compliment!
Hi Ron, like your videos. There are multiple loadings for the swede. Old 1898 loading, more modern loading for 6.5x55SE. Then, the modern action higher pressure loading of the 6.5x55SE(SKAN) giving a 140 grn sierra gameking loaded with re26 a velocity of 2850fpz out of a 21.5 inch barrel shooting 0.325 inch groups at 110 yards.
The 8.6 does use a 1/3 twist. It was initially worked up to a 1/2 twist, however, non-monolithic bullets would come apart at such a fast twist rate. This is why it was backed off to 1/3.
Thanks Ron ,we enjoyed the video .
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on ammunition loadings and dimensions. The issues you address make a powerful impact on the safety of loaders and shooters.
The mixing of different powders can be extremely dangerous. Fast burn rate powders Can speed up the combustion of dense slow rate powders causing extream pressures.
I think an Mauser 98 is fully capable of being used for an 7PRC. Ron was going by the standard bolt face but that can be milled larger to accommodate your case and you could rebarrel. Plenty of Mauser and old Springfiel 1903 and the old M1917 rifles have been made into the largest of cartridges and calibers.
These actions were used with the 8x63 which is basically a twin of the 8mm-06. If it can handle a 220 grain bullet at 2500 fps, it certainly can handle a 156 grainer at 2800.
Thanks for this background info, Aaron. I suspected that might be the case, but having no direct experience to back it up, I played it safe.
I'm with Ron: yes, if you have a magnum action. no rebarreling was mentioned, so he may just be thinking of having the bolt face and chamber reamed to accept the 7PRC. to me, that seems quite inadvisable, as this would imply the rifle was initially a 7mm mauser, with a pressure cap of 56k, while 7prc is 65k, plus, a larger case diameter meaning less metal to contain the pressure post reaming. if it's an OLD mauser action, lots of 7mm mauser chambered ones were "small ring" and not all that strong, and lacked some of the modern safety features.
Ron, you need to do all the big Safari's while you still can. You will get too old to do it soon enough, so suffer through the flight and get over there and have fun and get all the memories that you can. When you get really old you will be glad you did. You look like you're still in pretty good shape now. You know how fast time flies after 50.
6.5 Creedmoor is a necked-down .308 cartridge caliber. The metric equivalent of this round is 6.5X51 (7.62X51 is .308 ). The overall length of the brass is .158 inches longer in the 6.5X55 meaning more powder can be loaded. As all reloaders know loads can be developed for the intended purpose of their rifles. I have several 6.5mm rifles including a custom-built (done by myself) 6.5-06 ( I used knecked .25-06 brass as standard brass is not available for this cartridge ) using a 1956 Winchester model 70 action. Using a 140gr Berger Long Range Target match grade bullet I can achieve 3050 fps bullet velocity. MORE POWERFUL is a subject phrase. The calculation for Force (if this is meant to be power) is Mass (bullet weight) X Velocity. A somewhat forgotten 6.5mm round is the 6.5X50 used in the Type 38 Japanese Arizaka rifle. I have built 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5X55 Swede rifles using Mauser 98 actions. The Mauser 98 action set the standard for bolt action rifles. The Springfield 1908 is a copy of this action as is the Winchester Model 70 and to some degree the Remington Model 700. The Mauser Model 98 actions were machined from a solid rectangular piece of steel and the front recoil lug is machined into the action and not placed between the barrel and action as the Remington Model 700 does. Loads can be developed to satisfy a person's individual needs. Anyone that hunts knows that bullet placement is the most important aspect.
What about Mauser's first smokeless cartridge? The 7.65X53mm ?
That preceeded the 7.92X57....
What year did this 8mm Danish rimmed cartridge, come out?
Can't say Dan is wrong, because he's not. I do think there's a bit of OCD going on (maybe he's a design engineer? They all tend to be compulsive about measurements). Having said that, this is simply a continuation of different naming systems that started before the Civil War. The Europeans tend to use bore size before rifling. Americans tend to use groove size after rifling. And to top it all off, both systems get mixed together randomly in an unpredictable manner. Toss in the British and American tendency to "round off" numbers (270 being actually 277, etc), and you have a jigsaw puzzle. You have summed it up nicely, Ron, namely just know the proper diameter for your bullets.
Good summation, Kirk. Thanks.
That was very well said Ron. I shoot a 6.5x55 Swede and yes factory loads are very anemic. Most of us that handload already know that this rifle will outperform the Creedmoor, but with handloads. Most of the comments on here come from those that only read the title of the video. You explained what you meant very well and it was not inaccurate.
Thank you Quad. Alas, too many of us read too little or comprehend poorly what we read before commenting. Human nature, I guess. In our instant gratification culture we are not taught to pause, think, and consider before spitting out an answer or criticism.
Thanks!
For cameras, a professional photographer told me in the mid-'70s, get a body to do what you want it to do and put all your money into the lenses. That's where the photo is taken. The back is only there to hold the firm and the lens in position to each other, not withstanding the modern cameras that do so much more today.
Exactly what I've taught since the late 1970s. Of course, modern digital cameras use computer magic to do so much more than film and lenses alone used to do. Remove backgrounds, adjust exposure mistakes by 3 stops or more, change color hue, even sharpen poor focus! And being able to set ISO as high as 3,200 without excessive noise frees us from tripods to a large degree.
The 6.5 *55 is the smalest legal cartrage for moose here in norway.They just updated the law for copper bullets.(120gr 2200J @ 100m) Tikka Sako and Blaser chaber for it.I just got a Tikka T3X. Its like our 308. you will find ammo all over here.Go to VV homepage and see 65.55 SCAN and you will get loaddata for modern actions.
What is called ''moose'' in Scandinvia is not what a MOOSE is in North America. Moose in Norge are closer to cariboo or elk in North America. Elk is on the edge of what 6.5x55 can handle and only inside of 200 yards with an ideal broadside shot using a 140 grain Nosler Partition.
I believe 7.5 Swiss is older than any of the German/Mauser cartridges.
SAAMI tends to have mil surplus loads safe for the weakest common action chambered in that cartridge. 6.5 Swedish Mauser can be handloaded with more energy than 6.5 Creedmoor, but as Creedmoor is a much newer load, factory loads are hotter.
You can also have steeper twists on 6.5x55, however that will hurt the heavier hunting bullets (156gr) used in the nordics and used to be the minimum for use with Moose, red deer and bear. With monoliths that's not as bad anymore, since Sweden allows them for heaviest game with lower weights.
Its a two way street you can hand load the 6.5creed hotter then the factory ammo
@@warrengreen3217 It is who you are using as a loading formula source that matters. And what you are loading for. If you were loading for an AR10 action, functioning the rifle would be the major constraint.
@@tomhalla426 im taking about bolt action
Yep. ALWAYS load European rifles to CIP, not SAAMI limits
Ron, I'm looking to buy a new rifle. Thinking about the 243, because off its availability. What are your thoughts on all around cartridge?
6 or 6.5 creed hard to beat the versatility of the 6.5
Many fine options. All around for deer starts with 243 Win and extends into most bottlenecked 30s. Throw elk, moose, bears, African plains game into equation and 30-06 and 7mm Rem Mag. category does nicely. Despite how often I pooh pooh the 308 Win., it's an excellent all around with the added benefit of abundant and versatile ammo choices.
I have both the 6.5 Swede and 6.5 Creed. For me the 6.5 Creed has been a partial disappointment because its performance has been generously inflated. The typical velocity I get from 22" barrel is 2600 fps for 140-143 gr bullets (Premium factory ammunition). My favourite 6.5x55 load is the Norma with 140gr Nosler Partition which is advertised at 2690 fps (60 cm or 23.6" test barrel) but it fires at 2700+ fps on average out of my 22.4" Tikka T3X barrel. With reloading the Swede wins hands down. In EU the CIP specs for the 6.5 Swede allow 4000 PSI more than SAAMI and that, I assume, is because of the large amount of old rifles around in the US. US factory loads are anaemic, except for the Hornady Superformance and some custom loads, for this reason. In Europe those old rifles are still around but are not modified, get velocity at low pressure thanks to the 29" barrel and are not used for hunting. People using old rifles also reload for them. One point about reloading the 6.5 Swede for modern rifles is that it is really usable at 55K PSI, can go a bit beyond showing no sign of pressure and can be extremely accurate at the same time. I can't say the same about the 6.5 Creed. Anyway, they are both very good cartridges but if one wants more velocity out of the Creed to match the Swede, a long barrel is necessary. The higher max pressure is not really a great benefit, IME. The .260 Remington also has more performance than the 6.5 Creed.
I agree with you Ron I've a hand load for Vermont shooting and won't change to the new cartridges as mine boes the job and had done this last 30 years but I like reading and looking at new gear.
The 6.5 Skidrow is a great cartridge for ignorant people who have never heard of the 6.5x55mm. And in a modern rifle, the 6.5x55 can be handloaded to be MORE POWERFUL than the Skidrow.
Much of the discussion of scopes and barrels regarding rifle accuracy is fine, but the key point to consider is familiarity. Practice, practice, practice. Our ancestors did some remarkable distance shooting without glass optics at all. Key is practice.
Appreciate and respect all your advice from decades of hunting. Thanks Ron.
Thank you, Brian.
I can't find solid copper for my 6.5×55 ANYWHERE. Would like to use it for deer season here in CA.
I’ve got one box of 50 each Barnes 100 grain TTSX 6.5mm/.264” that I’ve been hoarding for a special occasion in my Swede.
Had you looked online citizen? Rotsa Ruc
That 100 gr tsx or ttsx would be a missle coming out the Swede gotta be around 3100fps
Good to know that 6.5 is the next shortage of Barnes TTSX 😜 at the Moment in Germany most retailers have Hornady CX & ECX at Stock and Barnes TTSX before they are gone i will make an order to avoid what happend to me in 8mm i have waited 9 month to get Bullets for my Rifle
Sellier & Bellot makes a 120 grain "Exergy" tipped copper bullet load for the 6.5x55SE. Shows a mv of 2800 and bc of .414. Check with your ammunition supplier to see if they can order you some.
Good episode Ron , I know you dont advocate ignoring book maxes and dictate pressure maxes . Yet with the 6.5x55 I have taken Randy's advice and have found pressure max for my modern rifle. Then backed off 5%. And have impoved on the balistic remarkably . One thing about the sweed is when you think youhave found a slow enough powder , drop down to the next slowest and keep the chamber pressure spikes down .
Thanks Paul. Glad you worked this out for yourself. Of course, I cannot recommend everyone thumb their noses at the established SAAMI specs, etc.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors I understand Ron . In these litigious times . And to be frank we are dealing with a controlled explosion every time we pull the trigger . And it is a fact that a lot of poeple should not! I repeat should not ! go any further then buying a packet of cartridges . Its is far simpler and safer to buy a different calibre/ cartridge combination .
20:15 - I don't think the Pressures are such an issue, just look at the 30-06 vs 308. There exists the same pressure difference in the case but the 30-06 still shoots faster, all be it by 150fps. The same is true for the 6.5x55 Swede vs the 6.5 Creedmoor... Just load the appropriate powder to get the case fill that will not exceed the pressure...
In my Opinion.
The 6.5x55 will outperform 6.5CM if you know how to load for it. The actual maximum pressure for 6.5x55 is 55,000psi, not 52,000psi or 46,000CUP. 6.5x55 in a modern action that is rated for 62,000psi will far outperform 6.5CM at the same pressure. The case holds more powder...
I've said it to Ron before, for handloaders, there should be different sections in reloading manuals for certain cartridges in modern rifles. It's done for the .45-70, why not others?
I don't know why, Jack, but likely lawyerly advice. Don't want to be held responsible for incautious loaders destroying gear and body parts. That said, there are a few +P load cartridges.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors I get that you have to be cautious, but why do reloading manuals have 3 sections for the .45-70 but they can't for other cartridges?
I don't know. Perhaps the 45-70 lobby drove a hard bargain. Probably because Marlin, Winchester, and Henry figured they'd sell more 45-70 lever actions if shooters knew they could crank up the power. And then the Ruger No. 1 shooters jumped into the fray! @@jackalopasaurus
Which I would still reach for my Remington GameMaster 30.06 .
I like 308 and 300wsm over 06
Haven't seen/heard anyone even touch on the topic of "duplex" and "triplex" loads in years. Loss of a firearm scared me away from these loads.
Also, did you bring 7mm.08, just wondering?
No
I agree with you Ron, on the bullet time of flight when hunting. Yes, modern equipment has driven the long range game. But the only predictable targets are steel, paper etc. If it has a mind of its own you never know what is truly gonna happen in the moment. I say put down that new easy to shoot equipment. Grab a compound bow. Learn how to hunt, not shoot. And then go back to the easy equipment. Bet it seems more rewarding when you get closer. As I told my son a long time ago it's called hunting not killing. Same as fishing, not catching. Jim from Backfire has a good video about what can go wrong on a not so long distance shot on a deer. I always say the closer the better less variables.
in regards to USA hand loading manuals, they have the 6,5 x 55 at the same power as the 6.5 Creedmore.
According to CPI the max pressure is 55,110 psi, according to SAAMI 51,000 psi.
Proofing pressure for the original arms were 58,784 psi and 66,132 psi. The third 73,480 psi was dropped.
There is also the 6,5 x 55 SCAN standard (Scandinavian) with tighter dimensional tolerances and higher pressure. It has increased head space.
Ammunition to the SKAN standard is quite a bit hotter than other factory ammunition and should only be used in rifles with a chamber according to the SKAN standard.
Those rifles can use ammunition fabricated to CPI or SAAMI standard.
A standard loading:
6,5 x 55 9.1 g (140 gr) DK 870 m/s (2,900 ft/s) 3,440 J (2,540 ft⋅lbf) (Europe)
or 9.1 g (140 gr) SP 808 m/s (2,650 ft/s) 2,962 J (2,185 ft⋅lbf) (USA)
6.5 Creedmoore 143 gr (9 g) Hornady ELD-X 2,710 ft/s (830 m/s) 2,283 ft⋅lbf (3,095 J)
That are both for factory ammunition.
Yep. Neither Norway nor Sweden is a member of CIP. They just made ut a pressure standard without asking.
And SAAMI and CPI did not make up the standards? Why would the Scandinavians need to ask the SAAMI or CPI permission to make a standard about a Scandinavian cartridge?
Should it not be the other way round? Compared to other cartridges in the time frame the 6,5 x 55 was straight away designed to a higher pressure than most of the comparable cartridges. The problem with the old mausers and krags is not that they are not build for the higher pressure, but rather age. The proving regimes or the arms were vigorous and they did not run in the problems of exploding rifles like some other countries.
Who makes factory 6.5 x 55 140 gn ammo that has a velocity of 2900 fps? I would be interested in finding some.
I am at the age where I have seen a lot of trends come and go. The beginning of this century, the RUM cartridges were all the rage. Then it was the WSM's. Now, with the exception of the .300 WSM, they are all seemingly on life support. Some of it was marketing, to sell more arms and ammunition, some of it was honest progress in some people's estimation. Two things that constantly amuse me and make me chuckle, are the statement that the .300 WSM exactly matches the old .300 Winchester Magnum, in fact, both loaded to their potential, it does not. It does match exactly powder capacity wise, the old .300 H&H Magnum, and that's not a bad thing. With 180 grain and heavier bullets, the old "Win mag" has more steam than the WSM, it has more case capacity, simple as that. The other point that makes me laugh is the old belt argument. Back in the day that was the case that was readily available so that's what they used. Is the belt needed today, no, is it a problem, no. And handloaders have been headspacing off of the shoulder from day one. I've handloaded ammo for myself and others, 40+ years at this point, for hunting and competition, belted or beltless, never a problem. The 6.5's are here to stay and that's great, but I think they will eb and flow like any other trend. The .300's kick more, because they are more, simple physics, bigger tool, for bigger jobs. Muzzle brakes are fine for practice, but I don't hunt with them in the field if possible, I've had some negative experiences in that regard, and most guides don't care for them either, but that is a personal preference. Most people with a little practice, can shoot a .300 Magnum of reasonable weight. If it's to much, go with something smaller, accuracy is paramount, always. A Magnum definitely isn't needed in most circumstances. In closing, the .300 Win mag isn't going anywhere, I'll certainly be keeping mine, as well as my old .300 H&H, 7mm Rem mag and many others. Latest and greatest isn't always best, just different. Thankfully we still live in a somewhat free society where we have all these wonderful choices in tools to choose from.
What are some of your favorite factory loads in 6.5x55 Swede for whitetail deer? I recently bought a sporterized 96 Mauser for my grandson to hunt with and was curious what ammo you would recommend
I am using factory RWS 6,5x55 DK 9,1g, its pushing 870 m/s and it should work for whitetails easily. I have used it to harvest red deer does, but would not go for a stag.
My only beef with a fixed 6x is that I have seen clients have trouble locating their target at ranges inside 100 yards. In the northern Rockies you just never know when you step around a big tree and see a bull looking at you 40 yards away in brush or tight lodgepole stands. For that reason I asked clients with variable scopes to hunt with it on its lowest setting and if we found game, adjust the scope upward if needed
That title Ron..... Them's fightin' words!
Cold be, but debating or discussing words would be more civil and productive!
@@RonSpomerOutdoors LOL, very true!
The 8x58RD is NOT the parent of the 8x57. The 8x58 is a much fatter cartridge and turning the rim still leaves you with a much fatter cartridge than the 8x57.....When making 8x58 RD most people use 45-90 brass and the resulting cartridge is still a few thousands under size at the head. It still works fine though....I have made, loaded, and fired hundreds of these, so I am not repeating hear say....Some one else is though....
Reason to go with the Creedmor is medium action vs long action necessary for the 6.5 swede unless going for a +120 year old design cock-on-close action. And my first cf bolt gun vas a Sako Hunter in 6,5x55 btw. LH.
Gday Ron... I'm hoping you can help me. I'm from Australia and as such, our gun laws are rather over the top... I'm on the lookout for a rifle... but It must be one of the following actions: bolt action, lever action, pull action, lever release action, or single action revolver in a rifle format... any of these actions are very easy to come across as you know, however, I'm looking for one that is chambered in either 22LR or 22WMR, and that be easily swapped between the 2 different calibres.
Are you able to provide any possible answers to this issue? I don't want to have to pull half the gun apart to swap calibres. It's needs to be a gun that can be easily swapped in a matter of minutes, with little to no tools or equipment. Does such a rifle exist?
what is barrel life like when comparing 308 to 6.5 creedmoor and 7.08.?
sorry for getting off topic😄
Hello Ron. Considering the Remington 223 vs the 5.56 NATO, I hear people many times stating that the 5.56 Case is a little longer than the 223 case. According to the Barnes Online Load data, the Case length for BOTH the 223 & 5.56 is 1.750 inches. The 5.56 NATO and .223 commercial brass cases tend to have similar case capacity when measured, with variations chiefly due to brand, not 5.56 vs .223 designation. The result of this is that there is no such thing as "5.56 brass" or ".223 brass", the differences in the cartridges lie in pressure ratings and in chamber throat length, not in the shape or thickness of the brass. The 5.56 mm NATO chambering, known as a NATO or mil-spec chamber, has a longer leade, which is the distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the point at which the rifling engages the bullet. SO, the only differences is the increased powder load in the 5.56 cartridge and the increased leade in the 5.56 chamber making the 5.56 not appropriate to be fired in a 223 chambered rifle due to the higher pressure and the possibility of the 5.56 cartridge causing additional increased pressures from the shorter leade in the 223 chambered rifle. Reloading the once fired 5.56 military brass should not cause any problems being fired in a 223 chambered rifle since the cases are identical. Have a great day.
You've got it, Roger. External dimesions of both cases are identical. Internal dimensions vary by manufacturer. Bullet seating depth and throat/lead dimensions are slightly different, but the Wylde chambers designed to work with both are increasing in popularity.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors Hello Ron. I always appreciate when RUclips presenters reply to my comments. Have a great day!!!
The debate about shooting animals at extended ranges must include more than just the physics and mathematics of whether or not the bullet will hit with enough energy and arrive soon enough. We must also consider the fair chase ethics of shooting an animal from a distance so great that their natural defense mechanisms are incapacitated. What sport is it to shoot an animal from so far away that it cannot see, hear, or smell you? It’s one thing to accomplish those tasks by stalking any animal appropriately, but to defeat an animal’s senses purely with distance, and then to use advanced technology to accomplish that, is not, in my book, sporting. However, that’s just it: it’s my opinion. I think if we really got to debating the distance at which fair chase ends, we would find that it’s probably well within ranges that most of us feel comfortable shooting. I would wager that there’s probably not a whole lot of difference in the ability of animals to perceive a human and whether or not we Pose danger between 200 yards and 1000 yards. I guess, for me, it also matters how much effort the Hunter put in to trying to get closer. I feel that there is a big difference between not being able to get closer than five or 600 yards due to terrain features, as compared to choosing to make a shot from that range when you could have closed the distance relatively easily. That’s my 2 cents. Keep up the good work! I really enjoy your content, and listening to you you present it!
8x58rd is not a parent case it has a different base. There's lot of bottleneck cases that outdate both.
Doesn’t seem likely they would copy Denmark as their 1888 commission rifle fired the patrone 88 and was adopted before the danish rifle was. More than likely copied the Swiss. For that matter, there was already multiple bottlenecked 8mm cartridges in 1886.
I know of people that shoot black powder that would load shells and put a few grains of smoke less in the cartridge and then put the black powder in said to get a better ignition
Good way to blow up a gun. A few grains of Unique in a blackpowder Colt SAA may be enough to do it on its own - no amount of smokeless in a gun not designed for it is bad news. Stupid thing to do.
The Swedish Mausers were built of extroadirarily tough steel. I had to rebarrel my Swedish M96 FSR because it was a target rifle that probably had 100K rounds shot through it, the throat was completely shot out. The Barrel had been on that rifle for 120 years so I couldn't remove the barrel without taking off some of the barrel at the receiver to get the barrel off. That very high grade steel with vanadium added was so tough that it actually chewed up a couple of carbide bits (Although Chinese made bought through Amazon). It now has a target CG80 barrel on it in beautiful condition. My point is that the Swedish 120 YO steel was some of the toughest steel I have ever machined. It is actually a very strong and durable rifle. Although I wouldn't recommend filling a case full of Bullseye and expecting it not to explode.
Husqvarna chambered their M96’s in 30-06 and 9.3x62 for years with no problems. I have one of the WWII era M96 9.3x62 that the previous owner took several Cape buffalo with. Husqvarna trusted it, he and many others trusted that Swedish steel against dangerous game. What more can be said?
@@davewinter2688 I still have pieces of that old barrel in my garage. The steel is so tough that I was thinking of taking it to a knife maker and having a custom knife built out of that barrel. I have machined stainless and other steels with no problem, but that old Swedish mauser steel is the toughest stuff I have ever worked on- besides a titanium piece that I tried to machine and finally had to cut it with a ceramic chop saw that burned out just before finishing the cut. It is now a reinforcement for the base of my Nacra catamaran mast. I didn't like the original design. The new/old CG80 barrel is a beautiful piece with a globe target sight. It is now a high-end target rifle although unfortunately to wide to put in my original rare FSR stock which was a shame. But with the custom stock I built for it still a beautiful rifle. Original CG80's go for a fortune but were just M96 actions with a target barrel and sights, and some trigger work but my M96 FSR trigger is no slouch. I bought a target Timney trigger to put on it but the original FSR trigger was actually better.
@@ChetJang I'm not familiar with those model numbers but I'm not a target shooter, just an old hunter. Were those rifles related in any way to the M41 sniper rifles?
Not directly- those are Swedish rare target rifles in 6.5x55 Swede based on the Swedish M96. They are like Swedish Anschutz rifles.
@@ChetJang Cool! Above my pay grade, but cool.
I'd save some money and get a Howa Super Lite; I've got a .308 and it is shooter, weighing in at under 6lbs with a 3.5-10 Leupold. Or keep your budget the same and spend more on better glass.
I had a Weatherby Vanguard 270 made by Howa in the 90's. It was a tack driver.
I'm wanting a howa mini super lite in 6 arc
@jmgates09 That's a good choice too; I don't think you will be disappointed.
I've got a mini carbon stalker in Grendel and it is good shooter as well. I bought it for my grandkids to use eventually and I think it is going to be great. My daughter killed a big doe with it last year; pass through and down quick. It's what made me start wanting the .308.
I think the whole thing about twist rate is driven by non lead bullets, which need to be longer for the same weight, so that some twist rates might be too slow for the heavier hunting non lead bullets. For instance, the 1/12 of the .308 is very much on the low end for heavy non lead hunting bullets.
Fedster, copper bullets certainly drive a need for faster twists, but they are not the main driving force. The lead core, secant ogive, long boattail bullets designed for maximum B.C. (Berger, Hornady ELD, Nosler AB Long Range, etc.) started the trend. Copper bullets from the late 1980s on have been made to work in standard twists for most calibers. This is why the early coppers were never offered in the weights of the heaviest lead cores of the time.
👍 The Creedmore may be more powerful, but my 6.5x55 Swedish is much more fun. 😃
I have a question. I'm in need of some 6.5 x 55 S soft point, very hard to come by. Could I in theory pull a 6.5 x 55 FMJ bullet and put a 6.5 creed soft point or like a 140 gr hornady in the case instead. PLS I need some 6.5 goodness.
In regard to the 6.5 Swede M96, its a helluva a lot stronger advertised. I am loathe to admit to this, but i missed charging a 6.5x55 load. Went to the range and the squib pushed the bullet down the bore just on the primer's combustion. I missed that point and fired again. The first bullet was pushed out by compressing the airspace by the second bullet. Both bullets went down range. My son commented on this. The action was locked up by flowing brass, got it open, brass foil everywhere. Primer had been shoved back inside the bolt. After tearing it down, 27:35 had it MagnaFluxed, no cracks, bolt setback or stretching. Still shoots accurately. According to a ballistics lab, the pressure exceded 80K PSI. Didnt chronograph that one. I don't believe there is a great difference between the two cartridges. I have another 6.5Swede built on a VZ24. I have used warmer than specified loads in it. Chrono sez it will meet and safely exceed 6.5 CM. Take all the potshots at this diatribe as you please, just remember "been there, done that, no free t-shirt". I'm not putting out all the numbers to discourage experimentation that may not turn out so well.
Good Lord Mr. Spomer! Tough crowd asking questions today.
Ha ha. HOlding my feet to the fire. But that's good. Helps us get everything straight.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors Glad you have a thick skin Mr. Spomer.
SE 6.5x55 see Sako rifles. The 22-inch barrel 140 gr, 6.5x55 can be loaded to 2800 FPS. Love the caliber
The Creedmoor can not bet a swede! I proved that.
The 6.5 Swede has a larger case, so it is POSSIBLE to load it faster, but max recommended pressures will be exceeded. Even the newer higher pressure CIP loads for the 6.5x55 SE/SKAN (new rifles only) max out around 55,000 psi vs the 63,000 for the Creedmoor using the European test method. In the US, SAAMI-spec loads are 51,000 psi for the 6.5x55 and 62,000 for the Creedmoor. It is that difference in pressure that allows the Creedmoor to do so well.
In addition, even the Scandinavian countries recommend lower pressure loads in M1896 and Krag rifles. In modern rifles that meet the SE or SKAN specs, the CIP max pressure is raised, but only to around 55,000psi, still less than that of the Creedmoor.
Swede is great but Creedmoor case is just a better design....probably the best hence the 6 creed 6.5...7...300PRCs all same concept n now 22 creed Hornaday us gonna ride that horse till they can't no more I hope they make a 25prc and not a creed
@@jmgates09 That is probably right. Dave Emery and other Hornady designers have been on the YT podcast and have talked about their "formula". It involves a section of tight freebore (typically over .1" long), minimizing taper, using 30° shoulders (steeper tends to increase scrap rate), and optimized propellants. Their close relationship with propellant manufacturers (especially St. Marks) is a large part of the performance from their ammo.
It is interesting to note that three of their first cartridges were marketplace failures, though. The 30 TC, 300 RCM and 338 RCM didn't catch on. Afterwards, they apparently decided to concentrate on optimizing for long range designs, primarily optimizing for long, high-BC bullets. That's why the 6.5 Creedmoor and later cartridges use faster twist than their American predecessors.
There’s a 6.5 x 68S similar to the 264 win. Haven’t seen one lately.
what about powder coating bullets as long as sized after coating?
Ron, is there a difference in case head diameter t'wixt the 6.5 Creedmoor, and the 6.5 × 55 Swede service round? Does the Swede cartridge fall into the same case-head family as 7×57, .30-06, etc? Thank you for your work!
Rim diameter of Swede is .470". 6.5 CM, 308 Win, 30-06, 7x57 all in the .473" family -- close enough that they all fit same bolts/actions diameters.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors Kool. Thanks, Ron!
Old military 6.5x55 rifles already have 1 -7.5 twist rate . Which handle 160 grain projectiles .
Another factor to consider is that old military ammo are loaded with weaker charges of powder to be safe and prevent accidents related to weapons in bad conditions. So ....the Swedish Mauser 6.5x 55 can and will out perform the 6.5 vremore.
On a different note, what gives you the most return when I listen to the podcast? I normally listen on youtube, but you might prefer people use a different platform.
Interesting question, Fedster. I'm not positive, but suspect YT pays a few pennies more. Thanks for your concern!
The longer the lens, the more stable and expensive you’ll need your tripod to be. The tripod is more important than most people give it credit for.
Also, regarding 6.5 Swede vs 6.5 CM, my reloading manual lists the highest velocity with a 140 gr bullet as 2501 for the CM vs 2556 for the Swede. Is that enough difference to be a difference? You be the judge, but please stop telling people that the creedmoor beats the Swede in velocity. It doesn’t. As I said in a previous comment, the Swede it out ahead of the CM by around 50fps. The Swede has a slightly slower twist rate (1:8.7 vs 1:8 if memory serves and it probably doesn’t) and it’s a long action. Also, it has an older case design so, maybe the CM beats it in some respects as to consistency and, therefore, potential accuracy. There are plenty of other reasons to choose the creedmoor, not the least of which is rifle and ammo availability, but power is not one of those reasons. The Swede may have a lower safe pressure limit, but it has a lot more case capacity, so that’s expected. Pressure limits don’t determine ultimate muzzle velocity across different cases and case capacities. The manual I’m reading right now is the second edition Lee modern reloading.
There are old loadings of the 6.5x55 (i.e made for the krag), and there are modern loads. The modern loads can safely beat the creedmoor in energy, but americans use only the old loadings.
one correction on 6.5 bullets is the 6.5 carcano is actually .268 not .264 but thats the oddball
If it's not broke don't fix it, the numbers have worked for the last 150 years so they a fine cheers Yogi 👍
Dear Ron. A big “Hello there” from the U.K., Hertfordshire to be more precise.
I love your videos and blogs and watch them all as they arrive in my RUclips viewer and appreciate your generally accurate and entertaining information concerning cartridges and bullets in particular. However, we are ALL just humans and can occasionally be a tad off-centre with our accuracy.
A case in point here is where you continually say that the venerable 120+ year old 6.5x55 Swedish cartridge is lower powered than the modern, sub 20 year old 6.5mm Creedmoor!
On YOUR side of The Pond it is most certainly produced as a factory round with rather anaemic power in deference (it is said??) to the EQUALLY AGED 1896 Mauser like actions. For that type of Old Boy rifle I would agree it is better to ere on the gentle side of chamber pressures and hence projectile velocities. But why hobble EVERYONE and every make of rifle in deference to just a few beautiful but definitely antique firearms that few people actually own and less, shoot!??
HOWEVER, take a look at some of the modern ammunition made by NORMA and especially by LAPUA and I think you will find their rounds stepping up the chamber pressures and hence velocities that are EASILY handled within our modern rifles - like my Tikka t3 “Sporter” heavy barrel rifle! I know for certain that LAPUA produce a modern bullet (target) loading using target grade 123gr projectiles - Lapua Scenars I think - that come out of a good 24” barrel at approaching 3,050 to 3,100 fps which I think exceeds the 6.5 Creedmoor factory offerings in that bullet weight.
I handload for my 6.5x55 Swede rifle and regularly get over 2,900fps from my 139gr Scenar loads in a new 26” barrel without excessive pressure signs. Try doing THAT in the modern upstart on a regular basis….
I sometimes wonder if the old 6.5mm Swede rounds weren’t artificially kept neutered to not compete directly with the much vaunted .270 Win rounds which, if the Swede was loaded more sensibly, would have had a really serious contender to compete in the market place against , in the USA!? Ha!!
Keep your great work and marvellously entertaining videos coming Ron!
Best Seasonal Wishes to you and Family.
Steve M.
I used a fixed scope, the x4 SUSAT sight on the L85A1 and A2 for several years. I could hit head sized targets 6 times out of 10 at 500 yds. So a x6 would be fine
My new go to ! M1A Standard with 2 10 rd mags ! Lookin for wolves in Idaho . Like to hear your view ?
If that rifle turns your crank, go for it, but I see no advantage to it over, say, a Browning Auto or an AR10 in 308 Win., 7mm-08, 6.5 CM, or even 243 Win. The lighter kicking rounds should enable faster recovery for followup shots. I doubt you'll get many opportunities for multiple shots at wolves, but one 10-round mag. might prove useful on rare occasions. During decades of pretty intense coyote hunting I had perhaps 2 chances at more than 3 coyotes in one session. During a dozen far north sheep hunts, plus numerous caribou, muskox, moose, and bear hunts in wolf country, I've haven't seen a wolf under my scope reticles!
Crazy how angry and Butt hurt people get when thinking they are trying to correct you😂😂 you do a great job dealing with snowflakes that melt down daily😂 love your podcast! Keep it up and maybe we can go on a hunt soon
Ain't that the truth. Forums are loaded with people that are ready to jump down your throat for not doing things or thinking of things the "right" way (i.e. their way). There's more than one way to skin a cat, and no matter how you do it, the end result is always the same. A skinned cat.
@@Dimitrius001 yeah like where’s the love 😂
Ron, to say that "all" commercial loadings in the Swede have less pressure is a bit off putting when European loadings are a good deal higher. I've heard the rationale for this difference being stated as due to the "older" rifles chambered in 6.5 x 55 but unless Swedish steel in a Mauser rifle has some articulable half life maybe the Krag rifles in the same chambering with their single locking lug is a better explanation. The best reason to not hot rod a Swede is that you don't need or want to, if a guy is looking in that direction he has missed the unique qualities of the cartridge that have caused it to be said that the swede punches over it's weight class for over a century now.
Your analysis could be spot on, Randy. Who knows precisely why MAP for the Swede is as low as it is. Likely a combination of late 19th century steels, rifle designs, new smokeless powders... The point is most factory ammo is loaded "mild" compared to venerable rounds like 270 Win. And, yes, Euro manufacturers usually load hotter than U.S. Fear of lawsuits, no doubt.
Ron need to look at european reloading manuals different pressures to USA data
Ron first off your content is always thought provoking and you are usually spot on. Frazier on the other hand is someone I would completely disagree with. Legality is certainly a concern in any hunting situation but it’s not the only or even the most important concern in my opinion. An excellent scope, a fantastic rifle and a terrific shooter don’t make a bullet get there any faster or lessen wind effect. There are just too many things that can go wrong or change in the time of flight to be shooting at game animals at six or seven hundred yards. The animal could just decide to turn just before the trigger is pulled causing a miss at best or wounded animal that may suffer for weeks before a needless death and wasted animal. Not something I’m willing to risk legal or otherwise.
Can't argue against your philosophy, Cousin.
No one mentions finding the animal. Traveling up and down terrain for 600 yards takes time, and then you got to find the spot , and the tracking begins.
Good information for anyone watching and wanting to learn. I don't mean any disrespect but you are around 30 years older than me and I have been loading for a long time. Now after that jab, hahaha! My dad and I have built Wildcats with great results for varmints. My dad has tried so many different cartridges for game it's not even funny. This is where it does get funny, I still hunt with a 270win mostly all the time in the west but he has to make some sort of weird thing and at the end I've had to put more in ice chest than he has over a long time. My dad did get the chance to go to Africa awhile back and out of all the options he had two different 30-06 was his choice for plains game. It's hard to beat what works. Hopefully he can go back and take a 270 of mine, just for the reason he said I gotta have at least a 30 or 338. He's not lying either I watched him shoot a mule deer with a 338 hunting with it for the soul porpuse of what will it do.
6.5CM is the best choice for the American market. It was designed to duplicate M96 Swedish Mauser (long rifle) performance In the rest of the world, 6.5x55 is the better choice. My handloaded 6.5x55 out of a M96 23.6 inch barrel can outperform commercial 6.5CM ammunition, and the barrel will retain it's fine accuracy for about 6,000 rounds, and the brass can last up to 20 reloadings. For myself, it is a very well balance design and a very sensible cartridge. 6.5x55 SKAN in modern rifles will greatly outperform 6.5CM by as much as 200 fps in what is now the standard barrel length considered to be ideal for hunting. Unfortunately the general public is not aware these facts making emphatic statements common place.
I think it started with the 17 hmr.
It's what I choose to believe.
Even the published load data in my Nosler manual has the 6.5x55 slightly more powerful than the 6.5 Creedmoor. Not sure where Ron is getting his data from. I have slowly worked up RL 22 handloads with 140gr bullets and the 6.5x55 can hit PRC speeds in a modern action without pressure signs, but I am most accurate at 46.5 gr so that is what I hunt with as it is more than powerful enough and printing sub 1/2 MOA groups. If you cannot cleanly kill it with a 140gr at 2780fps you really need to work on your aim.
I got question ! What has lighter recoil then a 243 but is bigger then a 223 that you could deer hunt with ? No pistol rounds !
Check out the 22-250 Rem., 220 Swift, 223 WSSM, 22 Nosler, 22 Valkyrie, 6mm ARC, 6.5 Grendel, 257 Roberts. But make sure 22-calibers are legal in the state you hunt.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors thanks for the advice .
@@tomslongguns443 22 creedmoor could be a good option as well. It’s not saami approved yet but hornady did put in for it, it’s available as a wildcat right now. So it depends on your time frame if it’s an option.
The best way to reduce recoil of a 243, is a better fitting rifle. Things like new recoil pads and suppressors or muzzle brakes can make a massive difference. My 7 rem mag has less recoil then my 270, using the old 270 year after year I never noticed how hard the pad had gotten. New limb saver pad on it and it was a whole different rifle.
I was looking for something for someone else to use that has a bad shoulder .
8.6 BLK used a 1/2 and 1/3 twist rate depending on load with 1/2 being the best performing currently.