Physician Commits Unthinkable Crime | Lauren Dickason Case Analysis
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- Опубликовано: 20 авг 2023
- This video answers the question: Can I analyze case of Lauren Dickason?
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I am self-critical and become stressed easily, so I decided years ago not to have children. I am 35 and do not regret my decision.
If you change your mind....😁
I'm the sane way. At 48, I have a severe trauma background and have mental health struggles and I felt fur babies were a much better solution for me and my husband.
I’m 56 happily married 30 years and no regrets on skipping having children. My brother was born when i was 10 and a sorry excuse for a man.
I joined the army to escape and his dad let him quit school in the 9 th grade and he committed a felony at 20 and has 5 kids he couldn’t support. Somehow thats my fault. 🫤🤷♀️🫣🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
That wasn’t his fault 😂 guess i got the brains in the family.
I love my nephew’s but I worked hard from 12 -50 and didn’t have kids paid stuff off and traveled instead. No regrets
I too am self-critical and get stressed real easily, but I did want children and went on to do so. I know I am a kind and empathetic person and would never hurt anyone or anything.
Not criticising your choice not to have children at all. It should absolutely be a choice. Just saying that even us stressy types can be great nurturers and parents.
A childless female true crime consumer. What a surprise.
Her husband was a fool. If your wife tells you three times that she wants to kill your kids, you should pay attention and do something about it.
Why don’t they just do them selves in, why take your kids with you.
No husband/Wife wants to take you serious about something like this, pride gets in the way too many… what would people say?, Nobody would believe him/her. etc..
Or was he evil? Did she marry a toxic narcissist because he zoned in on her vulnerabilities??? 🤔
@@edithpiwowarski4704 That’s ridiculous not to take threats of violence seriously. Pride is not an excuse!!! It pretty much sounds like you would rather save face than to get a family member help for mental and emotional distress. She literally was to the point of being deranged in the head stating her wish to do physical harm to her babies. It was evident and the husband failed to take action. He was probably afraid of her losing her medical license too but he lost everything do to his inaction and denial.
In reality though, legally he could not take the kids away from the mom unless he could prove that she intended to harm them; which would be almost impossible.
Wait, Lauren's husband is a physician? She told him 3 times she was going to murder their children? And she was self medicating?
She was likely taking SSRI's. For all the good they do for most patients, every so often, they turn people into homicidal & suicidal maniacs.
She is ALSO a physician
Yeah, and he just thought nothing of it! Obviously she meant it and it was a cry for help or support. He didn't think she'd actually do it, I suppose. If he did, he probably would have gotten her help.
Yeah, and Orthopedic Surgeon stereotype.
@@sparky6086they make you not care about consequences.
Just once being told she wants to kill the kids, is all it should take for the husband to get those kids away from the mom.
Oh yeah, and what good does that do in a place like the states? When all she would have to do is turn around and say, "He's lying, he hit me and the kids," and they'd lock him up and give her full custody. And yes I'm aware they are not in the states but since I'm not familiar with their laws, I'll use my horrible system here to point out that people can't have their cake and eat it too. Cause I'm sure a lot would advocate for the mom getting full custody and taking the man for everything he has, if he even so mentions the word crazy to her. Of course he should've taken it more serious but at least here in the states, that requires giving men a voice in domestic cases.
I would focus on: taking my wife seriously and getting her the help she needs. He clearly viewed her expressions as "nonsense" and chose to ignore them, as if that would make his wife "snap out of it."
And get her the help she needed.
@@honestyisadyingvirtue
I live in New Zealand and was a maternal mental health clinician for several years. All her husband needed to do was to speak to a family doctor or contact mental health services and tell them that his wife was experiencing symptoms of depression and voicing thoughts of harming their children. We have universal healthcare and it is taken very seriously when people express thoughts of hurting or killing their children.
Help was available. She chose to stop taking her antidepressants and he chose not to seek support and treatment for his wife. As a financially well off family they could've also paid for someone to help with childcare.
Husband was really irresponsible. And he just left the country and didn’t even have to stand the trial as a witness. How is that right?
Too bad that she didn’t decide to abandon them rather than kill them. Or decided not to have children at all. She went through 17 rounds of IVF. Crazy
Yeah, that strikes me as pretty selfish, in fact. This was an individual who did not want to be a mommy-- She wanted to give birth😖🤨 2 very different things. The husband who didn't take much pity on her plight sounds like he was probably sick of all the self-centeredness, too. Sad. Very sad.
Absolutely insane!! On the low end 17 Ivf treatments would have cost $300k… all the ups and downs of the hormones.. the desire to have children for so many years all to murder the children!! I’ll never understand how people kill the helpless babies that they are instinctually supposed to protect with their own lives.
She liked the attention
Yes that’s exactly what I was thinking. Why not simply say you’re going out for cigarettes and just keep driving. So simple. 😢
Too bad she didn’t have a supportive partner who took mental health seriously. She threatened to kill the children and he just blew it off. Don’t get me wrong. She is most assuredly the bad guy here but the father seriously failed to protect his children.
Husband is guilty too. He was told THREE TIMES she wanted to kill them and he did NOTHING
rheverend, the tone of voice might have made the husband not realize she was serious. In the context of the moment, I think he really did not take it seriously. I can understand why he might not have taken it seriously. I dont think he is to blame. I hope the people in prison are as kind to her as I remember the comments about Andrea Yates in Dr. Grande's program on her. They were very kind and supportive to her in prison.
Women kills children. Man to blame.
Crying out for help that did not come.
The husband is guilty because
women never take responsibility for their action right? what a joke
She is a stupid cold blooded killer
She is going to be in jail for the rest of her life with other people as
psychopathic as her.
@@carmelaseverino681 Basically he killed them.
Imagine the trouble she could've saved by just NOT having kids to begin with.
Why I hate it when miserable people force people to make the same regretful decisions!
Or at any point just walking away /disappearing to start a new life &/or just offing herself. What a shame.
This comment!
As if anyone is honest about how difficult ANY of it is, shut up.
I had post partum depression with my 2nd child, I started having negative feelings and thoughts, I reached for help and was not helped, it took everything I have not to do something crazy, I still feel guilty and shame remembering that.
It’s not your fault ❤
Thank you for being brave to share you story. You are helping someone else know they’re not the only one. I’m sorry you didn’t get the help you needed. But I appreciate your honesty.
@@lightningbug276 you can't stop the feelings and thoughts even though you know they are wrong, like being possessed and acting obsessed about following through, never really understood mom's that hurt their children, until I was in that dark place, admitting your feelings to others is so shameful, because it's not normal and evil, but asking for help and not getting it, it's the worst, my doctor gave me some antidepressants that did not work and my husband did not know what to do, he still had to go to work, but he was supportive when he was home, the rest of my family did not know until years later, thinking back to how I felt then still makes me cry.
Don't blame yourself. Post partum depression is a horrible experience. It's difficult to get through, without help, and very painful. Those thoughts you had are typical and are all part of it. Don't feel guilty or ashamed. You did nothing wrong. I'm so sorry you had to suffer with it on your own. ❤
Id feel guilty and ashamed as well. Any other person mentions that they’d be considered dangerous, a woman? Meh, let’s label it p.p.d…. That illness is a great excuse and I’m starting to see it WAY more… unless the killer has dark skin. Then they’re all things bad
It's hard to understand why she tried so hard to have children only to kill them. Mind boggling.
It would seem that way. Sometimes the reality doesn't match the expectation, and depression results. She needed a nanny. And a husband who understood mental health.
@@lmiller1413even a mental health expert wouldn't have stopped her from murdering those babies what works for one person doesn't work for the other. She was just evil.
Yup. seems most "parents" don't know the difference between fantasy and reality. in fantasy most kids are perfectly calm, happy, smiley "angels" but in reality lot's of children are loud, messy, and tantrum throwing monsters who will keep you up all night crying make a huge mess. why someone would want to have like 10 kids is just mental, anything more than 2-3 seems questionable to me but idk,,,,,,
Post partum psychosis. Logic has no power against severe mental illness.
@@secretsauce4530 I only had one myself lol.
So she desperately wanted kids, had kids, then discovered kids are individual human beings with their own laundry list of issues and problems just like adults are. Then she decides murder is the answer. Wow. She also made a not great decision to have kids knowing she was struggling with mental health issues. Also...her husband and family listened to her talking about killing her kids and DID NOTHING?? Ok. 🤯
My sister in law is a physician with a child, and that kid has never been able to be a kid. These physician- ty pes are methodical, analytic, and need order at all times. My niece has to be perfect all the time, and if she gets out of line, watch out!!!
Her condition was not helped by a pro abortion culture in the medical system. If it's all too hard then just get rid of the child.
17 rounds in ONE YEAR????
@@kennahowe7582 YOU need to SLAP your BROTHER around!!!
Husband didn't care. IVS attempts were probably her idea, her project, her goal. He was "just leave the fuck alone, couln't care less, whatever she wants, whatever" detached, not involved husband like thousends others.
I’m wondering if she figured having kids would finally make her happy (expecting unconditional love). She may have seen them as her cure, not as individuals for her to raise. It’s a very self-centered reason to have children. My mother had a terribly lonely childhood. She always said she wanted nothing more than to have lots of children. She and my dad had five of us. But as a mom she was cold and distant. She was interested in having us but she wasn’t interested in raising us.
This sounds very likely.
Dr Dickason was known in South Africa for being a very kind person, who was devoted to her children. They were always very well cared for. She had never hurt them before. The night of the murders she was suicidal and decided to "take the children with her". Her own attempts at suicide were unsuccessful.
There's always a selfish element to having children in my opinion (parental or societal validation, a form of immortality by passing on your genes, etc), it's just that some people take it too far.
@@marietjieluyt7619
This was premeditated, not spontaneous. Kind people do not murder children.
Post partum psychosis on top of her issues. She pumped herself with strong hormones to get pregnant, that is bad for your body and so bad for someone with mental health problems. Seems like this all could've been avoided
Good point
There should be much more rigorous psychological and social screening for women seeking IVF.
Remember Octomom who was just broke and attention seeking and her scumbag doctor was like "Sounds great! Lets pump you full of 8 welfare babies you can't afford and are mentally unfit to raise!" Thank god his license was revoked. She went on to further embarrass herself and her children by using her fame to do porn. So creepy.
Dude, exactly! I don't know why people don't understand what postpartum depression is
The highly qualified, highly skilled, experienced psychiatrists from our public health system who assessed her did not believe she was psychotic. She probably was experiencing depression. Not psychosis though. She knew what she was doing was wrong.
@@kathyryder828h
Going to make necklaces?! What the actual hell? That's disgustingly cruel.
Brutal for a mother to do !
And those poor babies went along with it having no clue.
And the six year old knew what was happening. Her last words were "mummy, why are you hurting us?" Just heart-breaking.
@@sandrah5405OMG 😨
What she did was wrong no matter what of course, but she chose a particularly brutal and terrifying method. As a doctor she had access to pharmaceuticals that would not have involved violence and terror. It goes without saying of course if she didn't want to be a parent she should have just left.
How can you ever just ignore your partner talking about killing your children. Like even if that was done in, idk, a joking manner, that's like. Immediate divorce papers. Can't imagine a redder flag.
Yes!
Right, especially since it was known she suffered depression and anxiety on and off since she was 15. She needed more treatment, not to be ignored. Sometimes a cry for help is just that, and not a cry for attention, or whatnot. She obviously meant it, and was looking for support.
Exactly!! Why would he leave them alone with her after hearing that?!
Exactly. Soon as I hear that, I'm reporting it and we're also done. It's a deal breaker.
Totally agree, as an orthopedic surgeon, he could easily afford a full-time nanny to look after the children while he was at work. Also, what were they thinking moving countries when she was already mentally struggling? Stress on top of stress.
I have experienced deep, profound depression and got treatment. But I knew I didn't want kids. Knowing the overwhelm of IVF treatments I am stunned her fertility specialist cleared Lauren for 17 rounds total especially after her first post-partum depression! It sounds like professional courtesy, not caution, was driving things. IVF is an industry first. A sad state all around and especially for the daughters.
Exactly, your comment confirms my thoughts on this! IMHO the husband wanted the kids, and she went along hoping that it would work out in the end. He should join her IMHOl
If you already suffer from depression and anxiety, your post partum depression would likely be even worse than it is for other people. Maybe she should have just had the one and stopped there. I wouldn't have risked it, after one bout of ppd.
The reproductive technology community is a business first. You pay money and they defy the natural order to give you a baby. There is no psychological screening, or background check just of your credit. I personally went through 2 rounds and after my 2nd trimester loss I knew it was not meant to be. I cant imagine going through an excessive number as 17 and then murdering the children created and born. Also- she mentioned demons. I don't think this should be glossed over, as possession and oppression by demons can be disguised as mental illness. Demons hate humans and children because they cannot reproduce and we can. They're jealous. If this woman was afflicted with pain and suffering for so long, it is very likely that these demons allowed her to have these children so they could then have her take their lives. Lord have Mercy on her.
It seems like God knew.
Money speaks ivf
This is a tragedy at so many levels. I think many times depression is seeing as a “lesser” consequential mental illnesses, however it can be just as destructive as other perceived more serious mental disorders.
Thank you, Dr. Grande.❤
Yes it is ! , I don't know anything about the case , only this video , but yes , just tragic all round !
You're right! Just remember the mothers with postpartum depression who murdered their own children! I will never understand that!
Having children requires hard work and resilience. The lack of sleep and other physical issues means you are probably going to have some bad days .
It's too painful to think of those poor babies and what a horrible death they had .
She was right , she was a useless mother.
Also life sentences in New Zealand is a minimum of 10 years after which she can apply for parole .
@@jenrutherford6690much more wise is to raise dogs instead of kids
There are TWO MAJOR MENTAL ILLNESSES : manic depressive psychosis ( bi-polar affective disorder Type I ) and schizophrenia, the latter being acknowledged as potentially a more dangerous condition. When an acute episode occurs, it is always an emergency that requires the intervention of a psychiatrist, often with hospitalisation.
A GP neither has the knowledge nor the facilities to treat a case of mental illness that requires urgent and speedy intervention usually through hospitalisation as a first step , and then as closely monitored treatment in the Community.
This husband reminds me of Andrea Yates husband The way he just didn’t listen to her with the postpartum depression. I feel sorry for the babies
She didn't do this because of post-partum depression, as the jury found she made a conscious choice to murder them.
Not only did she send her friend a detailed message but her husband, 3 times, ignored her cry for help. When are people going to speak up?
They’ll live with the guilt for the rest of their lives.
Sure, they could've done more. I mean, who truly would believe that their loved one, who wanted kids so badly that they underwent IVF 17 times, would turn around and actually kill the children. It's inconceivable 🤦🏾♀️. However, it's occurring more often now, so everyone should take it seriously.
She spoke up... they didn't listen!!!🤨
She is not insane, She was not psychotic
She knew what she was doing she angry and mad and that’s how she acts when she is mad . Her anger was directed at her husband and her kids . She was aware of what she was doing
@@melistasyIt’s not normal to think about killing your children. If ANYONE ever says that to you- you should take them seriously!!! If they are expressing these clearly abnormal, immoral thoughts out loud to you- it likely means they have been thinking about it for a very long time and are at the point that they can’t help it but speak about it aloud. She should have been taken STRAIGHT to ER that very day and the children not ever left in her care alone. People don’t express things like that for which they would be called “crazy” and is completely abnormal behaviour. Red flag🚩🚩🚩
How in the Hell do spouses not understand a crazy spouse's murderous intentions?!
ESPECIALLY when the spouse tells them ,” I’m having thoughts of killing the children , here’s how I’m gonna do it!”
I agree. Husband is guilty as hell too for sure.
He could be a husband that was busy or just didn't care.
Yeah let’s leave the kids with their mother who wants to kill them and go out for dinner 😡. Three times she told him. That’s three cries for help
Unless you have lived with someone who has mental problems and I have it's a very hard on the sane ones
My mother is a grandiose narcissist she would leave my siblings and I (4 of us) at home alone for hours at a time, sometimes without food. She did this to get away from us. People who can’t empathize get so frustrated by the needs of others. I guess she couldn’t take it anymore.
I agree Her kids were close in age and she could not deal with the responsibilities of demanding kids She was obsessed with having kids (the idea of it which has little to do with reality) all those hormones she took had to have messed up her body as well No way are you going to pump yourself full of drugs ,hormones and who knows what else and NOT be effected Wanting something is a lot different then actually having it
@@lisamac8503 oh I hadn’t considered the effect of the hormones. She obviously wasn’t thinking clearly because they could’ve easily hired a nanny. Or maybe that wasn’t enough, she just wanted her old life back.
@lisamac8503 if you read up about narcissistic behaviour.. you would understand and not have sympathy for her. Only for her husband. She displays all sorts of narc behaiour.
The women & hospital staff offered her help.. she did not accept any.
Can't have others seeing you no2 facade
...
@@barba5537 there’s definitely something wrong with her but I don’t think this was due to narcissism. A narcissist would deny it and rage when accused, but she didn’t. She just accepted it. She was even telling people what she was going to do.
@@readysetno8853hormones don't cause someone to murder. After IVF your body adjusts back after a few months. The surge of hormones is temporary.
A doctor is a mandatory reporter, meaning that if they become aware that a child is in danger, they are held responsible for not reporting this to child protection or police. I don't know if this applies to a parent regarding their own children, but it's difficult to understand how her husband was not held responsible for being negligent.
I am in New Zealand and followed the trial closely.
It was noted Ms Dickason had serious problems with depression and post partum depression. It sounded like she had been experiencing this for many years. She had tried to self manage and this included at times self prescription as a physician, which given her mental state would be of concern. There was no mention of serious intervention or psychotherapy involving other physicians.
The ignorance or denial of her husband was disturbing.
MIQ (Managed Isolation and Quarantine) which was mandatory when the family moved to New Zealand, can be highly stressful as Lauren would be stuck in one room for 14 days with three bored and likely energetic kids. Likely her stress became much worse and her mental state deteriorated.
I would also point out that a person can experience a mental illness episode while still having some mental faculty or ability to reason, I think she wasn't "insane" to use the term loosely but she wasn't anywhere near a stable mind.
Dr Grande is on the mark pointing out the legal definitions involved, and the grey area between deliberate murder and infanticide that this case is located in. IMO I lean toward infanticide. I also discussed the case with family and a few others and we generally lean toward infanticide. We cannot know what happened in the jury deliberations, I speculate that maybe there was some extensive debate interpreting the evidence into the murder or infanticide definitions, but not being on that jury I should not judge (and having been on a jury in NZ I understand the mandatory processes we must follow and the rules and interpretation limits set by the court, which may have shifted the interpretations).
This would not have happened if it weren’t for the quarantine
@@eamsuttonWhat a load of rubbish. Laurens mental health was already unstable before the move. I'm also a Kiwi.
She was likely taking SSRI's. For all the good they do for most patients, every so often, they turn people into homicidal & suicidal maniacs.
Me too and I agree with you. @@donna626
I agree with so much you have said. Thank you. I was fascinated by the legal definitions of infanticide in court. It seems to me we kiwis have been fortunate enough to have had too few cases to bring good case law to this trial. Anger was a big minus for post partum. As was lack of altruism in causing their deaths. Neither of which were argued against much or even at all by the Defence. This became compelling. But I wonder what the real life stats are on this? Is it just legal construct? Or bad case law? During the trial when it became apparent that she hadn’t thought much about her own death or, rather about anything after she had done it, someone said to me oh my god she didn’t think she would go through with it.
I am in New Zealand Dr. Grande, this has been a horrible case.
Also thank you for pronouncing Timaru correctly.
He did well didnt he
I thought his analysis was very good. He didn't quite get the pronunciation of Timaru correct though.
Psychosis is hard to imagine for those who haven’t experienced it.
It really can be like being possessed by a demon that knows everything about you and exactly how to manipulate you.
I had my first episode in my 30s and it was soul destroying.
Who’s to say it wasn’t an actual demon.
@@donsmith9194
What’s an actual demon?
Bullshit she was just evil
@@RubberJunk1spiritual creatures
@@michaelh-co8zx
Writing people off as evil is a lazy excuse to not try and understand and use that knowledge to actually prevent things like this happening.
The husband seems to be clueless and detached, almost to a criminally negligent degree.
Not his fault. Don't infantilize this grown woman.
@@MrsRitchieBlackmore so everyone who has mental health issues to this level is just being infantilized by those caring about them? He was a medical professional, not some uneducated... dude.
@@MrsRitchieBlackmore Their deaths are on him just as much as the mother because he ignored a blatant threat of danger against his children. I dont expect you to understand that tho as you are obviously delusional.
Yeah...he was just her HUSBAND. His KIDS too. "grown woman" who is a deadly killer Mrs. Clueless. @@MrsRitchieBlackmore
@MrsRitchieBlackmore if someone is making comments as the ones she made, you step in as the FATHER. One would think you remove your children from a possibly dangerous situation. Both are at fault.
“She was being really really really horrible to me.”
She was two years old.
(Edit: Guys, I KNOW toddlers are dicks, believe me. But you can’t take it personally, they literally don’t know any better. And it hardly justifies murder.)
Although of course ABSOLUTELY no defense of infanticide, children can drive their parents to utter distraction. An already demoralized and terribly stressed mentally unstable mother should not have been left with young children in a new country where she probably had little or no back up support. She had also cried out for help multiple times!
@@spiderpig1029agreed this is coming from a woman, put some Steel in your spine and woman up 💪🏻💃♀️🏃♀️
@@spiderpig1029mental illness is not a weakness. It’s an illness. People don’t choose to have it. And it’s nothing to be ashamed of.
So what? Some kids are terrible since they're small. And I mean HORRIBLE, bad behaved, problematic, spoiled and some even act like grown psychopaths so it's absolutely possible that child was insufferable.
I have 3 children and I have been there. You can lock yourself in the bathroom for a long time before a toddler will kill themselves and guess what you also avoid harming them yourself. That said toddlers are assholes yet totally worth it.
As I was raising my daughter, I taught her as much as I could about being a homemaker. She would be able to use these skills whether she married, had a roommate, or just made a home for herself.
One of the things I went over numbers of times was people's perceptions of raising children.
Children don't automatically have a sentimental love for their parents.
Parents are a source of security for children. That is how it should be in healthy children. Their parents are like the house, or the food they eat. It is expected and no real thought is given to its existence, and hopefully, there is no fear of not having it.
I told my daughter that too many mothers are looking for a loving, dependantly loyal, relationship that they aren't getting from their partner, family members, or their parents. A mother who gets pregnant to get love from a child, or to save their marriage, is going to be disappointed.
I call the perspective children have toward their parents the "billboard syndrome."
You know that billboard you drive by everyday on your way to work? You might have really read it the first few times, now you might glance at it. If someone asked you what billboards you see, you wouldn't be able to say - it is just part of the landscape that is just there.
Children see parents that way. They don't TRULY see their parents until they themselves are parents.
Raising children takes a lot of unselfish love, patience, understanding, and ENERGY.
For 10 to 18 years, they are your life, but after that, they are so worth the effort. They grow to be best friends. Independent adults with their own lives, opinions, and beliefs.
I'm sorry that that woman's husband didn't really understand or find a way to support her. I wonder how he will live with that the rest of his life.
This message needs to be shouted from the rooftops. Too many people think that they have a right to have children under any circumstance, that they are entitled. But children aren't a right - they are not objects to be obtained and owned. They are a responsibility that should happen under very specific circumstances - naturally and in a loving, supportive long-term relationships (marriage). I am not denigrating single mothers or people who fell pregnant and don't advocate for abortion, but I am tired of people playing God and manipulating life children to fulfill their own selfish needs. These children end up growing in a haze of crippling depression that in turn affects them for the rest of their lives (ask me how I know). I found it telling that she had her children from IVF treatments - a real attitude of, "well I paid for them, they are mine to do what I will with".
@@michellemarie9526I'm sorry but it's wrong to put down people who use IVF. Infertile people are not to be mocked and degraded. There are women who have kids with no problem one after another and are horrible mothers.
IVF is a medical need for women with medical issues. Many become wonderful mothers. I know some myself. It's very judgemental and wrong to degrade things you don't and can't understand.
@@kelb6073 IVF is wrong. Period. What people with that objective truth is up to them. We are not entitled to everything in this life. Children are not a right nor commodities to be designed, bought, sold, and returned at will. I am not putting anyone down. I am simply stating the truth.
@kelb6073 I agree. There is no moral (or Biblical) law outlining the "right" mechanics to get pregnant.
In my opinion, the BEST situation to bear and raise children is with a mother and father, who are both emotionally stable and are in a loving and respectful relationship. But I have seen children survive and thrive in much less than ideal situations - and so many factors go into creating those situations.
Who is so all- knowing enough that they can stand in judgment over other people's lives?
Even 'poor mothers' are such for reasons that we may not be able to understand.
I was working with a single mother of three young children who would "turn a trick" in order to buy pizza and rent a movie for her kids. (She was on welfare or whatever they call it now.) I taught her not to do that anymore and reasons why, that if she needed money for something like that to call me. I would either take her to buy it or bring it over and spend time with her and her kids. She hadn't been taught how to BE a good mom, and it takes time and effort and relationship to work with such individuals.
It takes mercy and compassion, not fault- finding and criticism from someone's haughty heights.
There is always someone doing better than we are, who can see and judge our imperfections. We set these high standards for ourselves that we will inevitably fail.
That's why the scripture says, "judge not, that you be not judged," because our own judgments will eventually come back to bite us.
Ask me how I know this! LOL
(Sorry if my personal beliefs about the Bible leaked through, but I think the basic principles remain true.)
They should have had a nanny and she should have left for a while and did residential treatment. Her husband should have taken charge in getting her away from those children.😊
When she chose to not take meds for depression I think was a major factor in the court's decision for conviction plus her preplanning of murder on her computer. Also, her husband did not appear to take her condition seriously and paid for that dearly.
She also intentionally did not report her delusions because she did not want to be rejected for residency in New Zealand. To recognize her ideation was a problem and then to willfully conceal it to ensure her desired outcome speaks of considerably more forethought than someone like Andrea Yates. This woman knew she needed help, but took steps to avoid assistance. She also clearly knew her actions were deemed wrong under the law. Legally, she appears to meet the definition of sane.
@@Catmom-gl5nt
I agree with you that she knew her actions were wrong. What delusions are you referring to?
I have experienced severe depression and anxiety. At times during a manic episode, I quit taking my medication, as I didn’t think I needed it anymore. Sometimes, it’s not a choice of stopping medication, it’s a false sense of “I’m feeling so much better, therefore I no longer need medication.” I can’t imagine how the continual rounds of IVF effected her emotional wellbeing. I am not condoning what she did, I am simply offering a possible reason she stopped taking the depression medication. Over the past 20 years, I have had at least 25 medication changes with some very serious side effects including delusion and rage issues. The doctor who performed these treatments should be held accountable for this negligent and outrageous treatment.
It was not a good thing to emigrate and the devasting Covid fearmongering lockdown and vaccines had an impact for sure. She lived through Multi-crises.
You make it sound, like so many do, that all you have to do is take meds for depression and "get help" and poof you are all better. It doesn't work like that, at all, anti-depressants work less than 50% of the time and rarely "cure" depression. And trying to find a qualified mental health professional who can treat clinical depression is extremely difficult. Also "depression" runs a wide gamut, from mild to clinical and the difference between those 2 is almost like 2 different illnesses.
Being told, 3 times, by the mother of your children that she plans/thinks to kill the children.
And not trying to get help or involve some sort of authority in the situation…
the husband is not innocent. 😣
Being a doctor himself made it worse
It seems moving away to another country where she had no help no friends or family for support and a husband that wasnt listening to her warnings all contributed to this awful tragedy, he should have taken her to see a doctor at the first warning she intended to kill the kids, i get the feeling he was too busy living his own life to really deal with the situation he was in with his wife’s mental state, this could have been prevented 😢
I believe if she had stayed in South Africa, eventually she would have killed them anyway, as she had the cable ties at the ready and had said things about murdering them, to others.
He should have taken her seriously, he knew she had depression and anxiety. I'm sure he realizes that now.
Don't know enough about their situation. But he gives off red flags as an emotionally abusive person to be willing to move his family into a socially isolating circumstance at such a vulnerable time as a family with young kids and to shrug off his wife's problems. My husband is no physician but he has far greater EQ than this guy.
@@angelahull9064 And what a price he has paid for that.
@@angelahull9064 His wife was paranoid about crime and safety in SA (one of the most crime ridden third world countries on earth). It's not emotionally abusive that he tried to improve her mental health by moving her to a country with a low crime rate, compared to SA. If they had stayed in SA, she still would have eventually murdered her kids, as she had the cable ties at the ready in SA and had mentioned murdering her kids to her friends.
Thank you for pronouncing timaru perfectly. Sadly New Zealand has a huge problem with child abuse leading to murder. Our society values are not conducive to happy healthy families. Our youth suicide rate is shameful and is an absolute crisis
My mind reels over cases like these...
Bravo to those who decide not to have children because they don't want them or because they know that they suffer from depression and know that they could possibly experience post partem depression.
They are totally unselfish.
It is extremely rare for people who experience post natal depression to kill their children. This person murdered her children in a cold, calculated, premeditated manner. Depression may have been a factor in terms of why she didn't enjoy being a parent. Depression is not the reason she murdered her children though. Please be mindful of the statements you make as (incorrectly) implying that people who are depressed are more likely to murder their children contributes to the negative stigma surrounding mental illness. Negative stigma contributes to people being less likely to seek treatment and support.
@@ToyotaGuy1971 has nothing to do with age. And that's a gross assumption thinking getting pregnant has anything to do with her trying to hold onto her husband.
100% Correct. We are really lucky. I still suffer from severe depression but have many doctors who will speak to me as soon as I call.
I am not sure that you know how deep that depression can run. They should have stopped after the one
"She often thought she was a useless mother." Oh, she is so much worse than useless.
Mothers are to protect their children; not kill them.
@@stephendacey8761and killing by strangulation one by one…She is devil.
i think part of the problem was she appearanly had no help raising the kids. having multiple children involves help from family, neighbors, a hired nanny and/or child care. maybe she was doing it all alone since husband was working all the time. drove her nuts.
so, imo i think she killed them by reason of insanity, or else she has some weird dual personality thing going on with her dark side being "a demon" as she mentioned.
highly desiring children, and then eventually killing them are at the total opposite ends of the spectrum, insomuch that her perticualr 2 personalities were the polar opposites. one being a demon who wanted to kill her children as she verbally said a few times over, and the other normal, typical nurturing mother and wife.
💯⁉️
I can't stop watching your videos. Please speculate as to why, though it goes without saying it would not be a diagnosis.
Probably need an adadadicktome
Kind of a ridiculous question, to be kind. Dr. Grande cannot/will not research you (which would presumably come up empty anyway). You're not a 'case.' Go see a therapist.
@@moonfall8972 Please pick up a dictionary, and look up the word "joke". Thank you.
@@moonfall8972 r/woooosh
Use a condom.
As someone who went through a psychosis and wanted to harm my family, these cases just make me so sad. I'm so thankful I had intervention and wish everyone had the support I did. I love my family and would never harm them outside of that psychosis
That's not how it works, put some more introspection into those thoughts. Just like getting drunk doesn't create thoughts out of nowhere, neither does psychosis. Psychosis is just considered a state of which you can not understand what it real, your violent thoughts still come from somewhere, taking a antipsychotic pill to limit dopamine doesn't change that.
@@AnnaWessonEtters I love being a mom.. I just took antipsychotic medication while I was sleepwalking. Made me completely psychotic for at least 24 hours, not normal for days. By miracle my husband was sent home early from work or I fear I would be sitting in a prison cell full of mind blowing regret, especially since I'm fairly sane (usually lol) .. I can't imagine.
Right, people don't get it, they are uneducated and don't understand what delusional means. Sad.
You hit the nail on the head. Many people do not understand psychosis. It is a temporary, but life threatening mental health issue. It can be treated. So glad You and Your family are ok. 🙏
Not everyone has someone that gives a sh*t! Sheesh!
It is an extremely sad case. This person had pre-existing mental health issues. She lost her first baby, then underwent SEVENTEEN rounds of IVF, to have her other babies. Then she moved to a foreign country, in the middle of a pandemic, stopped her antidepressants (as it would affect her immigration status) moved away from all her support networks (including parents, siblings & friends) It was clearly a recipe for disaster ! And did anyone mention she had no biological connection to those children? Be careful what you wish for....
Omg no I didn’t know that! I assumed it was her eggs that made the babies. That just adds a whole other level of psychological stress to everything….and even jealousy! Especially with if the children were created from her husband’s sperm.
Sometimes I think that nature has a way of trying to prevent disaster. There was likely a biological reason why her body didn’t produce viable eggs. At a cellular level I think it knew her psychology was too fragile to handle motherhood. Sometimes it’s best to listen to your body and stop fighting against it.
I was disturbed by the highly sympathetic tone towards her in the press here in NZ. It was very strange and in stark contrast to the tone used for other child killers.
Being sympathetic to her does not lessen the gravity of the crime and the death of the babies.
Good afternoon Dr Grande, excellent analysis. As always I learn something new from your videos.
Have a great week.
I am sympathetic to her, and also horrified at what she did. Empathy doesn't mean condoning, or absolving from consequence. I just want to understand how to avoid this from happening again. A lot of that is taking mental health more seriously and not dismissing it when people say worrying things.
Probably because she was an MD that desperately wanted children and had a lot of pressure and anxiety. But she mentioned to her husband way before she did it. He should have had her sanctioned but that would interfere with their move to NZ.
It'll partly be their background - white, cis couple, doctors - they're more relatable to people.
She had a night nanny AND a day nanny at home in South Africa despite not working. She was not followed up by a psychiatrist after coming off her meds.
Of course she was not going to cope. Yes she murdered them, but those children were also let down by a wider network.
Many south Africans who move to NZ struggle; In SA even middle class whites live a VERY good life- huge houses, tons of staff etc etc. Married to a doctor this couple would have lived a very privileged life with lots of help with the children. Fast forward the move to NZ. She was stuck in covid isolation for 2 weeks (something that even the mentally strongest people would struggle with), arrive in small town NZ, to a small house with no help, no friends, no family, and your husband immediately started his new job. I'm not exusing what she did- it was evil and monsterous- but all of that on top of being a disturbed person would not have been easy.
Yes, their father!
She was a doctor in South Africa
@@sandrajansevanvuuren7891 She was trained as one yes but not working as one in recent years.
@@ideaWorld403 I agree and two year old twins on top of that.
This is a tragic case. However, Lauren and her husband were intelligent highly qualified medical people, so it is unthinkable that they didn't know there was a major problem. Lauren's husband should never have left her alone with the children, especially in a new country, without adult supervision, under the circumstances. It seems both of the parents just buried their heads in the sand, were reluctant to acknowledge the obvious, and carried on as though everything was normal, when it was not. This was sadly, a tragedy waiting to happen. 🇳🇿
Lauren Dickason’ s repeated episodes of post- partum dépression/psychosis , were all part of a PRE-EXISTING MENTAL CONDITION diagnosed aged 15, for which she had to have treatment according to her mother. Although she did not specify what the diagnosis was, it appears she had a first episode of what used to be referred to as MANIC- DEPRESSIVE PSYCHOSIS, and which is now labelled as BI-POLAR DISORDER TYPE I , the SECOND MAJOR MENTAL ILLNESS AFTER SCHIZOPHRENIA.
Both aspects of the condition, when experiencing an acute episode, can lead to either self-harm ( suicide ) or harming others ( murder), especially if not treated in hospital, or if not closely monitored, possibly with COMPULSORY TREATMENT IN THE COMMUNITY , after hospitalisation.
Unfortunately, nowadays, in an effort not to discriminate against patients suffering from mental illness , doctors have a tendency to refer to patients suffering from a major mental illness as being UNWELL, or as suffering from depression , anxiety but they AVOID USING THE WORD PSYCHOTIC OR MANIC, which have connotations to MADNESS, as it used to be known.
As a mother who suffered with Post partum depression myself... It's real, very real... If you don't have the family/friends support I can see how this can happen to any mother....
She didn't do this because of post-partum depression, as the jury found she made a conscious choice to murder them, did you watch the video?
oh my GOD! This is horrific. Three minutes in and having all the anger feels.
It’s awful 😢
Going through so many rounds of IVF and desperately wanting children as well as her being a GP, put her at much higher risk of post partum depression and other mental health illnesses. What an awful outcome for all. No justice. Just despair 😩
Seems the husband missed several opportunities to address her mental health and protect the children but didn't know what to do. Obviously he didn't take her repeated threats of harming the children seriously.
It could be that she tried to use those statesments to " blackmail " him into compliance , like spending more time at home. It can be that for him it was ' cry wolf ' routine to bend him to her will. I had a mother like that. She terrorized our family into compliance at all cost. No care about any of us. Her mental illness or whatever that was greatly ruined a " what could have been a conent and happy home" but never was. It was hell to be part of her mentall illness world until she passed away at the ripe age of almost 90. Needless to say the only thing i felt of her passing news was : releaved. I wished my dad would have taken us away at an early age and spared us children this environment. He didn't, he stayed until the bitter end : he was a broken soul, a man who was afraid to speak up ( afraid of her reaction ) and escaped to the river with his fishing pole to have some peace in his retirement. Deep down in my darkest inner place i wish she would have killed herself in her young years or at least walked away from all of us. It would have been better for all of us having no mother/ wife. The impact a mentall illness person has on an entire family is unimaginable. The mental and emotional scars even now after her death will never fade. Unless one has experieced living a lifetime with such a person there are no words ever to explain it to an outsider. I can only wonder if her husband feels like me: liberated from his prison but unfortunatley marred by this experience
I think her husband and the people to whom she disclosed a killing idea and didn't do anything about it are responsible as well. She had been diagnosed with a mental disease. The severity of her mental issues was not taken seriously. Too sad for her innocent children.
Exactly
Yes her husband is also to blame he’s sounds like a narcissistic idiot it was his job to parent the children as well. If they were so unruly he let his severely mentally ill wife struggle til she finally did what she told him she would do. Wow. This is so devastating.
Thank you! People need to take threats like this seriously. Just because she said it in the past and never acted on it, didn't mean she wasn't going to do it sooner or later. It's the same with people who talk about being suicidal, as a cry for help. If they say it many times, don't assume they don't mean it or are doing it for attention. They just might do it the 4th or 5th time they say it.
Those feeling like hurting others or themselves can talk to their doctor to set up counselling intervention, respite care for dependents and postpartum depression support.
Rolling into NZ from South Africa, thinking it's _more dangerous._
Yeah, ok.
I know, right!
One South African guy I know refused to vacation in Greece or Turkey because they thought it’d be too dangerous?! Only vacations in Germany and Switzerland not even southern Europe. Bizarre
I cannot imagine going thru 17 rounds of IVF. My husband and I just met with a reproductive endocrinologist who recommends IVF, but we are still in the testing/figuring out stages. I know healthcare is different in South Africa than in the US but I can’t imagine having that many rounds of IVF or that it was easy to pay for.
TWO physicians CAN afford it!!
She went through all of that to have kids. Why? To kill them. Sick. Depression or not, the real victims are the children.
@@traybern even with their student loans?
They're both old and are physicians, so I'm sure they have plenty of money. Dr Grande doesn't mention their ages, but they look way up in their 40's - early 50's so probably have earned tons of money over the years. Orthopedic surgeons in the US make $$$$$. Maybe other physicians gave them comps and professional discounts too. I'm more concerned about the mental toll of 17 rounds of IVF. I have a friend who lost one IVF pregnancy and decided to adopt instead, the mental aspect was so difficult, in conjunction with all of the hormone injections. No excuse for this physician who stopped taking her meds, and did not seek help in South Africa for her depression. She seemed more in love with getting pregnant rather than being a parent, not understanding that parenting is damm hard at times.
@@intorainbowzOG South Africans don't really have the student loan problem. When this couple studied, education was also not that expensive.
This is tragic, sad, and mind boggling. Her husband didn’t take her issues seriously. Rest in peace little ones.
Remember, it was probably a long road almost getting to where they were their way to New Zealand. I think as they were now nearly there, the husband probably thought just one of those upheavals that would again soon pass once they had been there a few weeks. It may have been an error of judgment on his part. Stalling things for 'crying wolf' again and again and weighing up if it was worth the risk of losing the chance of living in a safer environment for his wife and children. I think he is suffering great pain now. Poor man.
I’m thinking that she was trying so desperately to have children to solve her mental health issues. Nowhere is it mentioned the amount of mood swings come with IVF. This story is so sad.
she should have just hired a baby sitter and let the babysitter deal with the kids if she's that stressed. I can't believe she wanted kids but can't even mitigate the side effects of having them. the husband was stupid to dismiss her concerns. I can't even pity him.
Also they're both doctors ...
No because of the Covid lockdowns she couldn’t have hired a babysitter
I suspect religion played a part in their lack of parenting skills. (Spare the rod and spoil the child but corporal punishment of children is illegal in New Zealand.) One episode of Jo Frost as "The Nanny" would have given them a few more clues about how to positively discipline their children.
Also they had a night and a day nanny in SA and Lauren was a stay at home mother. She had no clue about how demanding children can be as she hadn't had to care for them herself until they left SA.
@@BellaLeoLicoriceit is also illegal in South Africa fyi
She couldn't hire one as they were in Covid lockdown and in any case, South Africans get a shock when they come to NZ as there are no "blacks as hired help" (almost slaves quite frankly) like what they have in SA, that are super cheap to have as a nanny and they live in poverty, often living in a corrugated shack, that in NZ people would be mortified by and see as disgusting treatment of a human being. In NZ you'd have to be a multi millionaire to have a nanny. People just hire babysitters for a few hours, usually because they are going out for a night on the town and you have to pay them a really decent hourly rate.
It seems to me like she was in love with the idea of having children but didn’t realize the amount of time, energy, and effort it takes to care for a raise children that all have their own unique personalities, interests, needs, etc. This is such a heartbreaking case but I do agree with the jury’s verdict.
I don't know the technicalities of IVF. But as the husband of this woman I would have suggested that maybe after having a first child it would be wise to stop having more or at least wait some time to find out how things are working out with one child. This guy seems to have been more interested in his career than in the wellbeing of his family. As a doctor he should have seen that his wife had serious mental issues and the two of them should have adressed those together first before embarking on the IVF ordeal. His disregard for his family is also shown by his behavior the day his wife killed her children. He went out with colleagues to have dinner and left his wife at home with the kids. And this two weeks after getting out of quarantaine in a new country on the other side of the world.
you have to wonder if she was angry about him going out for dinner and leaving her alone with the kids. He even said she did it to hurt him.
This is so similar to the Andrea Yates case here in the U.S.. She murdered her five children after a similar health history while her husband turned a blind eye to her difficulties. He should have been arrested as well.
The whole time I watched the video, I was saying out loud "like Andrea Yates." The stories are VERY similar.
Yes, her husband was a religious nut that believed prayer would cure her. As well as having more children.
To me it doesn’t seem similar at all, other than a mother killed her children.
Andrea Yates killed her children because she loved them so much and thought the devil was coming for them and their souls would burn in hell for eternity - so the only solution in her mind, to save her children from pain, was to kill them herself before the devil could get to them and that way they were guaranteed to be safe and happy in heaven. It’s delusional and makes zero sense but the motive came from a place of overwhelming love and worry for them.
This woman’s motive is that she didn’t want to be a mother anymore and began to hate her children. Their behavior was making her angry and stressed out and she had regrets over ever having them. The apathetic depression and low self esteem she had battled with for decades made her covertly selfish and narcissistic when it came to motherhood. So she ended her children’s lives in order to escape them permanently.
If men truly understood p.p.depresion they would listen and watch the mother of their children.
I don't understand why infanticide is a possible lesser charge for killing any child under 10 years of age. I understand postpartum depression but have never heard of it lasting for that long. It's shocking just how much children are undervalued in this world. And if a person stops taking their medication, they are responsible for their actions.
Postpartum depression and psychosis.
And a touch of demonic attachment
Or just an evil woman
And they are ONLY now working on a cure for this! UNREAL!
Culture
Why are so many people stupid? She justified what she did after the killings. Maybe she is just a psychopath? Ever think of that?
She chose to stop taking her antidepressants. She murdered her children because they made her angry, not because the world is dangerous.
Lauren was clearly very unwell. That absolutely does not excuse her actions. What she did was horrific and wrong but how many ways/times could she tell people she was having these thoughts for them just to be ignored?! I absolutely can't get my head around this husband being told three times and him doing nothing! 🤯 such a tragic tale
This is beyond sad and tragic 😥. Why are not more mental health interventions available or executed so these types of tragedies do NOT occur?!
For that to happen, it meant her family, friends or husband had to contact a mental health professional and that's the last thing they wanted to do, as it would have meant she would not have been able to emigrate to NZ. They were hiding her mental health issues from NZ immigration, which is fraud.
Totally agree this mother was a danger to her children and it was not picked up and acted upon.
Because they were both doctors and thought she could deal with the illness herself in order not to have problems with the NZ immigration rules.
Committing an obvious triple murder is not the best way to become "free". Her husband needs a smackdown as well. He asks her "Do you know how crazy you sound?" without grasping that knowledge himself.
I think the husband got the smack down of his life in the most horrible way.
People can say terrible things without meaning it .I dont think you can blame the husband .He had lived with her for 16 years and was probably used to her tantrums.
I often wonder why some people choose to become doctors and I am not talking about the husband
@@davidboskett5581
Any responsible person would intervene if their spouse said they were thinking about killing their children.
I don't have children myself, so I will defer to actual mothers, but I have noticed throughout my life that women who struggle and fight the hardest to have children tend to be more likely to come apart once the children are here. Even as a child, I recall there was a woman in our church that adopted a toddler after years of infertility. She ended up having to be committed once she finally got the little girl. In the long run, things worked out, but she had what everybody called "a nervous breakdown because she didn't know what she was doing."
I have seen this repeatedly with women who fight infertility and women who have repeated miscarriages. It is like they finally get the baby, and they have this glorious idealized version of motherhood, and what they get is the reality, it is really, really hard work. I had a coworker that was raised by her grandparents. The only explanation she ever got, was that her mama tried for 10 years for a baby, then she got one. After 18 months they dropped her off at her grandparents and they were going to CA for a month so they "could take a break." They didn't come back for 6 years, and never took her back as a daughter. My coworker said her parents treated her like you would a much younger little sister.
This isn't true of all women who struggle for a successful pregnancy. It is just a pattern I have noticed.
My mother took fertility treatments to get pregnant with me then left me with my dad when I was 7. My brother and sister-in-law adopted cuz she couldn't get pregnant and she told me a couple months ago that my nephew is the reason she drinks so yeah, you're on track with your deduction
Her so-called "physician" husband is equally culpable for his ineptitude and apathy. She didn't do this in secret, she left breadcrumbs all the way to her ultimate actions. 💔💔💔💔
So, you equate the acts of a woman who KILLS all 3 of her children to a husband who does nothing 3 admittedly crazy sounding comments. I'm glad you don't make laws.
@@CowSaysMooMoo What physicians do you know would ignore a person's statements over a period of time about wanting to kill their children without recognizing they're not safe to be anywhere near kids, much less (his) OWN children. Potentially a father and husband who's poorly educated and never heard a thing about mental illness and it's potential for deadly consequences. Or perhaps South African physicians aren't required to recognize deadly ideation in their patients and make recommendations for them to be seen by a psychiatrist.
It's odd that anyone would leave their children alone with someone who has repeatedly stated they're going to murder their kids, much less a doctor.
It's obvious that he didn't participate in her horrific actions. She is where she deserves to be, but had he either payed attention to her homicidal ideation and ensured their safety with other caregivers or done ANYTHING to stop her from her actions, they'd still be alive.
If someone continually stated they were going to kill anyone or pet that mattered to me, they'd have to kill me first to get to them, because I'd block them from any access.
I'm no psychiatrist, psychologist or physician, but even I know to protect those I love from someone who's (potentially) a catastrophic threat to them especially if they tell me directly. There wouldn't be a second threat, much less several.
He was focused on himself, his "dream" and what he wanted, skating on that thread of hope that his physician/wife housekeeper/ babysitter who's miserably depressed and isolated from everyone she knows and socialized with, would get over herself and focus back on what's important. His dream. 🙄
He did not kill them. She did. Incomparable.
She was the killer. The end. Not the husband.
@@catharineduplessis5273 😅
So tragic, after working so hard to get the babies (numerous IVF), to then kill them!
"Getting babies" and being a proper parent are two totally different things...a lot of women don't seem to get that, tho. Too focused on "getting babies"
Her lawyers came up with every possible defense out there. In what world is New Zealand more dangerous than SA?
Covid extremism
It's not even close, that's why so many from SA decide to make NZ and AUS their home.
Lol, especially the small city of Timaru, where they were living. It's like a friendly country town scenario with low crime. This was illustrated after the deaths, where the community came out with a supportive march, for the deceased children, with strangers crying and distressed that this happened in their city.
It comes nowhere near. South Africans are top of the list when it comes to immigration applicants. The biggest shock South Africans are likely to experience is the fact we don't have maids or night nannies.
@@bingonamo7520it's also very cold, the hospital housing is quite run down and small and there was a tragedy a week before where 5(?) kids died in a car accident. I mean..Timaru can be pretty grey. Coming from warm Sth Africa, big house, nannies, probably quite the culture shock.
Can never ignore a parent making statements like she did 😢
I have never heard of more out of touch physicians in my entire life or career as a nurse. I mean she said she was going to kill them and her husband said, you sound crazy and ignored it.
This happened in a town 2 hours from where I live. I had wondered if the isolation in a hotel with small children when arriving in New Zealand for a week also contributed to the feelings of this lady with no Nannie’s to help look after 3 very active small children. That would have been very difficult as the isolation rooms were tiny and limited outdoor activities that had to be booked in daily exercise
BULLSH1T!!! EVERYONE KNEW the Covid-19 travel rules, WELL aim ADVANCE. And two weeks is JUST TWO WEEKS!!!!!!
Lots of people are single and have kids without Nannies. They live in the same circumstances and do not kill their children.
@@charisselinnell-morton4137Yes I was thinking the same thing. Excellent point well said thank you for sharing.
@leetuki ...... this is no excuse for her actions but your comments I believe may be the " root cause " that lead to what she did .
The last defence witness did say the decision to move to Aotearoa was singularly the worst for a person with Laurens issues. No support. Mega stress and Complicated by their desire not to seek outside mental health help before they left South Africa in order not to reveal in Lauren’s health records her true mental state and thus place their emigration in jeopardy. No doctor should be self diagnosing mental health issues.
17 rounds of IVF is unethical. Graham her husband ignored shockingly strong evidence of mental illness. Lots of people are guilty here
If you can pay for something and have evidence of being able to pay for it, you can do basically anything.
Why unethical?
I think she thought having children was going to take away her depressed life and she would go on to live happily ever after, but reality soon hit and having children added to her instability instead of making her stable. Her husband from Dr. Grande’s description didn’t help at all and may have been part of the problem. He obviously didn’t take her seriously and loosing his children was the result. It seems all this could’ve been avoided if they sought proper help. Being doctors, they should have known better. She definitely had a demon on her shoulders in the end.
Agree fully. She unfortunately listened to the demon.
I think ol' Graham needs to be facing some charges too. Wtf does he mean he didn't take his wife seriously about killing the kids. So what, he took it as a joke? Cause if my husband said something like that I'm leaving with the kids that day and filing for an emergency custody order and protective order. She said this for years and he continued leaving them alone with her. That's unacceptable! That should be child neglect and child engagement on his part. If she didn't want to be a mother anymore why didn't she just get a divorce and leave. Plus she "tried" to kill herself afterwards. How convenient that killing her children was successful but not when it came to herself. If she was gonna kill herself anyway then why kill her kids. That's ridiculous. She said she felt no connection to God... I don't think she'll be connecting with him now either. Maybe she should have sought God and her mindset would have been better. She def shouldn't have stopped her meds. This is a tragedy that could have been prevented. How unfortunate.
Keyboard warrior .
However, he has been punished by losing his 3 kids and he returned to South Africa with his reputation in tatters as well. I don't believe he goes to work anymore.
You make a good point… when a man kills children, the mom usually gets jail time too for failing to report or protect them. But I’ve never heard of a father being held responsible like that. There is a definite double-standard for this issue, especially since he knew that she was having severe mental health issues.
If your Mrs ever says “I feel like killing the kids love”, that’s your que to get away from that toxic kid killing partner like yesterday!
Take the kids with you though 😅😂
I’m an RN. I have depression. I had post-partum depression after my fourth kid but it was mild. I also had secondary infertility; didn’t do IVF but the shots & pills. I can’t imagine doing what she did.
Ur nuts
Again and again and again, people just don't know what to think about mental health problems or how to take them seriously. The husband in this case had no idea.
And he is a medical specialist
Living in nz and studying clinical psychology i was closely following this case and i agree with the verdict 100%
She is devouring mother: didnt see children separate from her and punished them by taking their lifes. She was found fit to stand the trail and never showed signs of psychosis. However, she had resentment towards children, especially Karla (the one who was murdered first), all children were not biologically hers (donor's), in SA she hasnt practiced since having children and had day nunny and night nunny on top of family support. lauren said she didn't want children to have another mother if she would kill herself, hence she felt a need to murder them. While killing, she was checking their vitals to make sure they are dead.
The defence played on "how could you kill choldren in your right mind, only insane people do this".
I believe she had a depression. But having depression, even sever ppd, does not make the one a murderer
Its interesting that she had a Day and Night nanny in SA, she had loads of help and support.
Perhaps She really couldnt handle having to take care of them on her own and had never experienced it. So when they got to NZ it was really impossible for her to cope, dealing with tantrums and energetic kids.
On top of being in isolation when she got to NZ. Tipped her over the edge.
Those poor girls. Such innocent souls.
I wonder if she misses them and is sorry.
RIP
Immigration is very hard for many people. You lose everything you know and your full support system.
Anxiety and depression is heavy to carry and so much worse in extreme scenarios like immigration.
The lifestyle change is also hard for many. In SA most people have nannies or cleaners or live in help. It's the norm. Living in luxury to moving to where she ended up was hard.
Culture wise I understand why she felt pressured to have kids.
Being in that state after immigration, isolation and having challenging children, not to mention post partum...
My question would be why she didn't feel leaving them with the father was an option.
What is it going to take before people start taking these threats seriously? I feel her husband bears almost as much responsibility as his wife for not protecting their children.
Always trying to shift the blame away from women..
@@universeobserver378 - No, just saying that, in this particular case, her husband should have taken the wife’s comments seriously.
@@universeobserver378um, she is guilty of murder but he is also guilty of severe neglect. They can both be guilty, his doesn’t take away from hers. If my husband said to me he thought about killing our children, I would call 9-1-1 immediately. I would certainly hope he would do the same.
He cannot take equal responsibility because he did not kill them. Nor did he even think about killing them.
@@rebeccashields9626 He is guilty of not imagining the unimaginsble. We are all guilty of that.
Such a heartbreaking case! Thank you for your careful analysis Dr. Grande!
Such an unthinkable tragedy. May those babies rest in peace, and the husband be able to forgive himself for not stepping in to protect them
My mom always said if you know you dont want kids please please dont have them
This is so troubling. Motherhood is alot of things. To bad this family could not afford some help to relieve Lauren of many of her stressors and she had alot. Please everyone reach out to mother's and offer your support and kind caring.
The fact she protected the children right up until the day they died isn't that uncommon in cases like this. These cases are more common than many people realise and so often links back to the Mum disguising her depression. There was a recent case in Sydney Australia where a Mum attempted to kill her baby but failed, then stole the baby from hospital at 4am in the morning and went on to kill the baby successfully. The case is yet to go through the courts but it's a really tragic event. More so because the baby was a social media poster baby connected to selling baby clothes online. I'm sure the Dr will cover this case in time.
She stole the baby from the hospital after the attempted murder? Was the child recovering from the attempted murder in the hospital? If so that crazy how she was able to get access to them and then finish what she started. That’s horrific.
Ok ,so what I want to know is why the need to kill the baby? How does that help depression? She could've given the baby up and be free, I just don't get it.
@melistasy they are often suffering from psychotic depression. They are so switched off from reality they have a strong belief their children must die. It's such a sad condition. In Lauren's case, I think her husband greatly downplayed how ill she was because they were trying to get residency. She could have rung any mental health line or talked to another doctor, and she would have been urgently referred her to the right service, but that would mean she would have it on her medical record.
@@SwedePotato314 Yep it was a total lapse of Hospital security. This case really affected me because the babies death was only a few houses down the road from where I live. Do a web search like 'baby-dies-north-west-sydney-berowra-heights-woman-charged' to reveal the full story. It would be a cracker for the Dr to cover.
@@melistasyoverwhelmed with parenting and not thinking straight. It also sounds like she may have been psychotic at times and not connected to reality!
What a bunch group of beautiful children; when you showed that picture of those kids brought a smile to my entire body. I listened some to the story but it was too disgusting for words. I was a physician I knew to always take ANY MENTION OF SUICIDE OR HARM TO OTHERS SUPER SERIOUSLY. How sad.
Thank you for your excellent analysis. This trial just occurred in my home town in New Zealand. It has been devastating for the community to hear about these wee ones and how they lost their lives. At the same time, she seems a shadow of a normal person. I was shocked that she was found guilty of murder as she just doesn’t seem at all well still.
First she went to a lot of trouble to have kids. Then she got PPD. She didn’t want to move, and the last straw her husband ignored her feelings. She was clearly sick. He’s guilty to.
Look, I live in South Africa and my sister relocated to New Zealand a while ago as well. I cannot find excuses for this woman, but I want to say here and now that a) living in South Africa with the present crime statistics is absolutely scary which results in an exodus of families to other countries and b) moving to another country with three young kids is extremely hard. If you have any other mental problems on top of that, you are going to be in trouble. There is NO infrastructure or support system on the other end whereas here she might have had family or parents to share her responsibilities with the children. She might have had help in South Africa in the form of a housekeeper or nanny which she may not have had in New Zealand, adding all the responsibility on top of the physical stress of moving. I was in shock at first when I learned about this case, but after thinking about it for a while, I can fully understand how a woman can crack under pressure, especially if the partner/spouse is not supportive. What she did to the babies is abhorrent but lots of mothers find 2-year olds testing and she had two of them to cope with. I feel very sad for the family at large.
So relieved to read this here. Her behaviour was of course sickening, but I don't think people have any idea of the knife edge we live on here in South Africa 😢 Such a sad case.
Oh poor you, firstly to relocate whole family of five to New Zealand you have to have resources. They're very privilaged and could afford nanny. Many families would kill just to have a possibility to relocate to NZ. She was just rotten, I don't think she was insane or exhausted. Parenting was not what she expected, so she just eliminated her kids, because she saw them as properities, she paid for iVS, didn't she? Utterly cold, disgusting woman. People risk their lives drifting through the ocean on the rafts, just to get to safer country. White South Africans, one of the nazis nations are crying when they land a cosy job position in NZ or Australia and have a chance to easily emigrate, just give me a break. It's pathetic.
I moved from SA to Aus as a healthy, positive person. The move almost sent me over the edge and I had no previous mental health issues. Lauren going off her meds was what did it for me, Chronic meds or a diagnosis is not viewed as favourable when wanting to immigrate to NZ / Aus. Hence why she went off them.
Jury got it wrong. There was enough evidence of mental insanity in this case IMO.
The smallish town they located to had lost five teenagers in a car crash a week or two before the Dickason case. The community was traumatised and this happened while people were raw. Lauren and the children were let down by the people who should have been looking out for her. It's not like it wasn't obvious she needed help.
Exactly, just the emigration on its own after what she has gone through - 17 miscarriages and severe post-partum depression. Timing played a big role here. If she stayed in South Africa she had good support systems. My children emigrated, and they still miss South Africa
How horrible im doing everything in life to make sure my 3 kids have everything in life. Those poor babies 😢 RIP so sad
I live in New Zealand . This case is on everyone's mind . Horrific , she was found guilty , she certainly killed ,but she's not the only person responsible imo
Why would you not take your wife seriously when she says she's been thinking of killing children. She needed serious mental health intervention and this man let her drown in her postpartum depression and downplayed her cries for help. I wish she would have had the presence of mind to just flee the house before making that decision. Poor kiddos. No sympathy for that husband. Hope he stays alone and doesn't eff up anyone else's life.
He must be pretty unhappy with himself!
For you to label this as “postpartum depression” is insane. She’s just as guilty as any other murderer. There is no excuse for her actions and no one else to blame but her.
She's an ADULT. Ultimately, it is HER RESPONSIBILITY to seek help. Stop infantilizing a murderer.
Stop it. You can't be serious and blame the man for his wife's actions.
This is postpartum psychosis not just depression. This person is completely nuts
Another heartbreaking story of mental illness in a mother. So very sorry for all involved. I wish it were more recognized so that the mothers can be helped before they harm themselves or their children. So frustrating that even her physician husband didn't recognize the danger her mental state put the children in.
You make excellent points.
These two issues (unconfirmed) are also of interest:
1) Apparently she was not the biological mother of the twins; her sister had donated her own eggs. Could this have led her to feeling distant from them (she describes never having felt a motherly bond with her kids).
2) I heard that the day she committed the murders, she had received a query from NZ immigration about contradictory info in her health records, so she may have panicked that her lie had been discovered and they would have to return to SA. In my mind that is not the end of the world, but in the mind of a highly disturbed person it might have been intolerable for her to consider returning to a place she considered dangerous.
People with a right mind, empathy and love can attempt to bond with anyone. This woman was selfish and narcissistic. She was never gonna bond with any child.
Great Analysis Dr. Grande. Such a tragic situation and I agree the clinician’s will never know the exact cause of her actions. There’s so many variables to this medical/psychological case, starting with going through 17 IVF”s is unbelievable, I have a friend who went through two any she was both so very sick physically and mentally from just going through those treatments. It’s a tremendous amount on a human body. Bless those sweet baby girls, it’s truly heartbreaking.
Greetings from South Africa. What a tragic story.
Depressed or not....Killing your children is the most evil thing any mother could ever do...She planned out the whole thing...She deserves Life in Prison....
I think she had a total psychotic breakdown clearly. People that do these crimes aren't thinking like a normal person clearly
True it is evil. But even as far back as Plato, it was recognised as a basis in justice that insanity is in itself punishment and further punishment is but for the selfish satisfaction of the public.
Punitive justice is very flawed to begin with. Every time we should ask ourselves what punishment accomplishes.
If this woman is genuinely mentally ill to the extent of psychosis, rehabilitation is possible and should be seeked.
Ya think?
Go back to sleep, you have no clue about mental illness!🤨🤨🤨
@@j4Roseright. She even said" I want to be free" people with messes up brain don't say that. They wouldn't know the difference wanted to be free or not. She know what she was going. And blamed on the mental illness etc. Baha. She got sick and tried of taken care of those kids.
She was a physician and knew or should've known the risks of going off psych meds & postpartum. Also, SEVENTEEN rounds of IVF? I've never heard of a person having more than 2 or 3. She'll likely be dead of breast/ovarian/bowel cancer before long.
If accurate, she suffered from mental health issues since adolescence. It's as though she was looking for approval and success by working had and becoming a doctor. When that failed to "fix" her, she thought marriage may be the answer. When that didn't work, she may have thought having children would give her the happiness and fulfillment she was lacking. When it became apparent that nothing was going to make her better, murder was the only absolute action to erase everything. I truly pity her, but I think because her mental health status gave her this poor thought process it shouldn't give her a pass. She's dangerous to herself and others. The father of the children failed in every way possible to protect his children. He should face charges, too. Not murder, but some accountability for his negligence.
What a piece of work. I cry for those who would do ANYTHING to have even one child. I feel sorry for those who will never know the joy of children. She got what she wished for and then destroyed her healthy children.
I feel sorry for those who romanticize the idea of having children, have them, then complain about them constantly Being that naive and misguided about how exhausting it is to be a parent is a tragedy. Also a bit comical.
Thank you Dr Grande.
Haven't seen it yet but I've worked in the medical field, and met many crazy, sociopathic Drs. 😱 Don't get me started about the nurses!!
It sounds like you have some really important stories to tell so patients can trust their intuition about dangerous doctors.
@paulaoppedisano6460 Yes, intuition is your best defense! And always ask techs or nurses you trust, which Dr they have nicknamed "The Butcher." Not even kidding..🤯Often they are newer, and female. Not to stereotype, but this monster fits that pattern.
Many of them are obsessed with having kids too. It's all they talk about so they can brag about this or that. Many are narcissists.
It is kind of amazing that women are arrested and imprisoned all the time when their boyfriends kill their kids, because "they had a responsibility to protect their kids" but this man, just like Andrea Yates's husband, can be told straight up that their wife is having thoughts and desires of killing their kids, and they don't have any culpability for leaving them in her constant care.
Give me ONE case that parallels this one with switched roles
Baby, I'm not looking up every case where that happened or even ONE. You are more than capable of googling it. I watch and read true crime all the time. It's happened. Look it up yourself if you don't believe that mothers and fathers are held to different standards in these situations. @@user-so1xg9sh4i
Anyone doing 17 rounds of IVF cannot be mentally sound.
Can't imagine that stress 😢
I bet undergoing so many of those treatments contributed to postpartum depression. I wonder how it affects the hormones.
It seriously messes with your hormones and makes so many women feel crazy!! I’m almost certain that had SOME involvement in this horrible crime. Women’s hormones are so connected but understated to our mental health
It seems like so many people who go thru IVF after IVF weren't meant by nature to have kids. I know two, one a relative, but neither killed their kids but they did abandon them.
That's so sad, so after having a child through IVF, she abandoned her child? Why?
Agree 💯%. A lot of times, nature really knows better. People that are OBSESSED with having kids are up to no good imo. There's a pretty good reason why your own body is preventing you from having kids in a natural way, and they never stop to think " hmm, maybe I'm not suited for this" like wtf. Having kids it's selfish to begin with. I can't imagine torturing my body and health with so much unnecessary IVR treatment to end up disliking the kids so much. But people get pretty b"tthurt when they hear the truth. Kid are NOT for everyone and that's ok.
My mother
One said they made her nervous and gave her anxiety, the other I don't know what happened or where she went. @@skybluedreams77
Seems to me that we shouldnt play God. I mean, we figure out a way to have children with donated eggs of another woman but simply, fertilized eggs and giving birth isnt the recipe for motherhood. There are some secret ingredients.
Rough week for the medical profession on this channel.
😂
As a perinatal psychiatrist this is one of the saddest cases I've heard. Lives lost due in part to stigma, lack of knowledge and a failure of the health care system
On the topic of having children, my aunt never wanted marriage or children. She dated alot, was close to her nieces and nephews . Shortly after my cousin died at 70, my aunt died peacefully in her sleep at 95. Some women do not wish to be a wife or mom. She worked 30 years and then was the oldest volunteer of 30 years at the hospital she worked for. To each our own in our pursuit of happiness.