One thing I wish you had covered was Stanley Chen. A man who had been tricked into losing everything, he decided to throw his last remnants of fortune into the casino in Las Vegas, believing he had nothing left. Miraculously, he won, and rebuilt himself in a single night. Seeing it as a second chance at life, he got back to work, becoming a billionaire over the next years. Unfortunately, due to a water crisis, Las Vegas was on the verge of collapse, until Stanley came to save it by introducing a revolutionary water filtration system, all for the mission of saving the city he believed had once saved him. Under his leadership, Vegas became a paradise of fun and enjoyment, until the Faro Plague. Tellingly, as he was fleeing, Stanley decided last minute to not turn off the pleasure district he built, hoping that, if anything survived, that they enjoy what it had to offer. A millennium later, Aloy does just that, revitalizing and turning that place into a thriving community of entertainment in a world that desperately needs it. Stanley went with Far Zenith, since it was his only option. However, while the rest of his compatriots shut themselves away in hedonistic daydreams, Stanley Chen never lost his humanity. If you ask Tilda, she'll mention how he recreated his dream city in VR, and up until the very end, his doors were always open to any who wanted a night in the city of dreams. His story proves that not all Zeniths were terrible. There were those who legitimately wanted to do good with the gifts they had. That he died with the advent of Nemesis is one of the biggest tragedies of Forbidden West in my opinion.
He was a man who deeply wanted to repay the city that gave him his life back. He was a generous sort who probably didn't want to see people disconnect and lose their humanity. Hence why he kept his doors open both on Earth and on the colony. Like you mentioned, he also developed a water filtration system to keep Vegas alive and turn it into a paradise. That shows his commitment to creating a better world and a concern for the people and environment around him. Always thinking, always building.
To be fair, Stanley Chen was just so different from the rest of the Zenith's, that it's easy to forget he was one of them. Definitely an oversight from FatBrett though, but as he mentioned, the Zeniths rebuilt their old lives in digital form, including Stanley. They didn't really build anything new, as far as we're aware, they never gave birth to any offspring, they didn't build more ships and make more colonies. They just shut themselves away for a thousand years, wasting the potential they had. Though Stanley at least seemed to be one of their more open and good members.
Honestly, I like this direction considering the state of the real world. Billionaires like Bezos and Musk are funding a lot of space exploration projects. But are they really doing it for the benefit and future of humankind or they are looking for a way out of the planet and human society that they and their class are slowly destroying
And even those that had some useful skill, were only competent by comparison and the fact they had access to advanced tech and knowledge... and they couldn't even use those well.
@@Alacaelum they were ONLY humans. We have access to way less information and still suck ass at using it. They had oceans of knowledge more. Way more than any human could comprehend or use in meaningfull way. Like we literally go in that direction right now. In direction where our input turns into idea of direction of research and we leave rest to AI. I think FatBrett has way too unrealistic idea of humanity. Setting new goals is like pointing to a place on the horizon and deciding "we go there". Easy when you are in a pond, gets really difficult when you are in the middle of ocean and see no shore in any direction. Plus Far Zenith crowd were, most of them, normals, just with a lot of money.
They were also just like 70 people aswell, it was never sustainable for rebuilding humanity anyway. Not to mention the situation they were facing, true total extinction and they got an imortality vaccine aswell, so even if all of them were not insane by the time they left the 10 times longer lifetime they had lived, in a virtual simulations were they were "god" absolutly drove them insane aswell. And i mean, how would you make a vilanous story were only one or two of the 70-ish Zeniths were evil.
Well he at least has his moment in his final boss after merging with allmind. He snatches control from the all intelligent, all powerful AI and becomes more dangerous alone, shutting down Ayre as well. The Far Zenith never get their impressive moment, they never overcome a stronger threat, they never have their big showy moment.
Iguazu just your average mercenary and he was overpowering powerful AI by sheer of saltyness, you cant compare him for basically WEF council wearing something for Paris Fashion week after party orgy.
When Far Zenith comes up there are quite a few people who just go "bad villians, just comically evil" but i really like them, they are the literal worst humanity has to offer one could even argue that with all the technology they have inside them the probably aren't even strictly human anymore (Erik bleeds white when killed) which is a nice contrast to Aloy and her companions and Elisabet herself
This is they aren't what I would categorize as " comically evil". If the last decade has taught me anything about tech billionaires, is that if anything these characters are a tame take. Totally agree. Remember kids, obscene money and power gives you brain worms.
@@scarlthesnarl5581 Literally, ther have been studies done showing that higher income people think they are inherently more capable and deserving, they also have more misplaced confidence ie. they were asked to predict dice rolls, if i remember correctly, and the more wealthy you were the higher you confidence even when the outcome is random Not multiply that by 10000 and you get the Zeniths.
Its what I hate about the whole Horizon story. Its so badly written, with such comically evil but powerful villains. I wish evil rich people were that incompetent in real life.
I've noticed that people demand an abnormal amount of nuance from fictional characters. Real world people can just suck. Why shouldn't fictional characters reflect that.
"immortality Made Them Weak." They're literally a bunch of billionaires who bought their way onto a ship to abandon the world, and one military officer too cowardly to stay behind and fight against the enemy destroying humanity. Immortality didn't make them weak, they were already weak to begin with.
@@bulkinggod3872No, the ant that you want to stomp has no way of fighting back nor any chance to survive under your heel. But the act of defying fate and facing ultimate annihilation in a humble way and humanizing way is beautiful beyond words. To fight against a collapsing world and still coming out alive and prosperous is very definition of humanity's undying and unbreakable sheer will and indomitable spirit.
@@bulkinggod3872 he was a coward. Everyone else has to hold back this horrific monstrosities and will inevitably die to buy time, and he ran away. That is a cowardly decision.
@@bulkinggod3872 Where everyone else in the world was fighting to hold back the endless tide of machines, he left. Part of that was because the guy in question was a genuine psychopath who loved killing people, but there were likely plenty of psychotics in the army fighting off the machines. When he returned, he gleefully killed people, and died fighting. Would that he could have done so against the machines, but then, he could see any point to fighting that didn't involve getting his rocks off.
Fun fact: Far Zenith was initially doing the whole space travel thing for the benefit of humanity, but a change in leaders shifted that goal into what we see in Forbidden West. And when I say change in leaders, I mean within the game itself.
Although it seems like there was also a shift in goals on the game development side. Zd had a bit more subtlety and nuance than fw. Faro was handled drastically different and alloy seemed to undergo a pretty drastic personality shift as well.
"It is implied that Dalgaard was killed by Far Zenith" because his talents "could be easily performed by a holographic "digital puppet" based on recordings of his extensive career." They fucking wrote in that AI replaced their spokesperson.
“He’d been beyond anything like a threat for so long that all the reflexes of survival had weakened, atrophied”. - Abbadons Gate, the expanse books. This came to mind when watching this.
40:05 During a recent trip to Amsterdam, I visited the Van Gogh museum which is located extremely close to the museum where many of these paintings (if not all) are housed. There is a painting on display there known as Almond Blossom. This was a painting created as a gift for the birth of his nephew and was created in the middle of one of the darker periods in Van Gogh's life, when his mental health was in extreme decline. You can see such extreme joy in this painting, joy from a man going through what, to most people, would be a living hell, over this one bright spot in his life at the birth of his nephew. The fact that a painting like Almond Blossom wasn't saved by Tilda is a telling thing to me, as I feel like someone like Elizebet would have saved a painting with this background and meaning if she were to choose one. Tilda saved are representing how she saw herself and her love for Elizebet, but not art that could represent Elizebet as she very obviously was. Some who, even when going through hell, could see the slivers of light breaking through the storm clouds.
That, and Almond Blossom would also represent the little beauties that make life worth living. A birth is a wonderful thing, but also a small one - like an almond blossom. Tilda and the other Far Zeniths never appreciated the little beauties in life. When they were mortal, they probably never noticed blossoming trees, or other little signs of life. They only saw things they wanted to own: Money, time, and (in Tilda’s case) Elizebet.
Tilda sees value in materialism and anything that can boast her ego of moments. meaning if it doesnt hold a materialistic value. than theres no value in it. i doubt that Tilda ever loved Elizabet. in fact i think she only loved her imaginary idea of her and not the person.
Not all the Zenith's became weak after gaining immortality, as least from what we read and hear. Stanley Chen based on what learn from both his recordings and Tilda maintained his empathy. He left the water system on standby for others to revive Vegas hoping there was a future for Earth. Unlike the other Zenith's he wasn't isolated in his own VR world but instead invited others openly to join in his recreation of Vegas. I wish they kept him alive or had some Zenith's with his mentality in the game, adding depth and creating clashing ideals between the members. In a way, he helped Aloy by providing a new vibrant settlement for those who found Vegas.
Honestly, I love these guys specifically BECAUSE they're pathetic. For all their immortality, all the years they've lived, all the hyper-advanced tech they have - they don't have any actual SKILL. They're the polar opposite to the folks down on earth - where the Tribals rely on skill and ingenuity and creativity to overcome beasts regularly multiple times their size AND power, the FZ's rely almost exclusively on their tech. The moment they don't have their advanced gear, they topple like a tower made of wet paper. Take away the tribals gear, and they'll just slap together something else to fight you with. It's a wonderful little parallel~
Kind of sets up Nemesis with breaking out of containment as a mix of both, using valuable information to build the necessary implements to kill them and send the signal to Hades, and unlike the Faro Plague, has an emotion to drive it to bring extinction to the Earth
@@SaraMorgan-ym6ue It'd be driven hatred, mostly blinding, so there is more emotion immediately there. Also with the name given, clearly some ideas on revenge will be relevant to the actions done Last piece of information that I could think of is the collective being described by anectode, so while likely still filled with hatred, its own struggle for survival will probably make it quite different than the Far Zenith(starting as a digital being, they have no presence, no physical form, making existence flimsy and extinguishable with a whim or push of a button)
Eric is laughably easy to kill. Part of it is that Horizons combat system is built around fighting machines, so human enemies end up boring and simplistic in comparison, but I also think it's intentional. Without his shield you can kill him with the simple "arrow to the head" strategy that works on any old human, and simply breaking line-of-sight makes him completely impotent. He's in no great hurry to keep the pressure on the player. With a good sharp-shot bow the fight is over in less than a minute, with most of the time going to pulling the string until it does overdraw damage, then using slowmo to place your aim over his head. Compare that to the other human boss fight in the game, Regalla, who will actually aim for Aloy's head and take big chunks out of your health bar unless you put some actual thought into the fight. Eric really does not put up a fight worth mentioning.
I guess it only make sense that Eric only fights (or kills) to fulfill his twisted fantasy, and he himself might not have any real world combat experience outside of VR so in reality, he won't survives long in a real combat without his fancy shield and advanced weapons. While Regalla is an actual warrior that seeks glory through combat, she was forged with actual war and conflicts and actually become a fearless warriors. Also, perhaps Regalla seen Aloy as worthy opponent and will fight through all her might, while Eric only sees Aloy (or anyone outsides of Zenith) as a lowly pest, thus he think far and mighty to think that Aloy won't kill him, resulting him still toying with Aloy despite losing his shield and makes him more vulnerable to conventional weapons.
Regalla gave me the most trouble. I died 3 times on her which is more than the rest of the game combined. Hardest difficulty is easy. That being said I went into forbidden west with 400 hours clocked in on zero dawn so I knew what is going on.
I don't blame Elisabet for breaking up with Tilda. Despite her own character flaws, she was smart enough to realize just how toxically codependent their relationship was becoming, so she broke it off before she let herself get too attached. Honestly, I think meeting Tilda also helped Aloy realize how she had been putting her biological mother on such a high pedestal, too.
@@SonicZGamer It's pretty obvious if you pay attention to the context. Heck, Tilda even confirms it in an optional conversation with Aloy at the Base. Forbidden West is a lot more open with its LGBT themes than Zero Dawn ever was and I love it. Normalize queerness, everyone!
@@maxleroux Forbidden West even has a Pride Facepaint. Which is weird, but I don't mind. LGBTQ+ is fine by me and I love that they don't shove it in the player's face or glorify it too much, but depict a normal relationship with it's problems and in the end it's failing. Which can happen to any relationship.
@@chico1786 At some point I had selected this face paint and didn't realise it because most the outfits I like have helmets that cover it. Though I kinda like it and my game+ play through will be only with that from now on. ❤
Tilda was revealed in I think like 1 frame of the trailer, at the end. Just enough to go "Who???" But yeah. The Far Zeniths really feel like some depictions of vampires I've seen. Detached aristocracy who's lost connection with their humanity, and are just the purest form of the leeches they are.
With the shield effects, I thought she was a hologram at first and maybe even an avatar of Vast Silver (which I really hope features in the third game)
@@XSilver_WaterXI can think of a group for Vampire the Masquerade, the deformed ones who hide in the sewers... but the thing is they give sanctuary to other unwanted, warped and scarred individuals, and act as a means of passage for persons, materials and information. Far Zenith wouldn't do any of that, even if it benifeted them.
This realism in Horizon's lore is what really makes me feel some slight horror. Not some zombies, aliens or any other made up supervillains, just human mistakes, unwillingnes to see own flaws, and deception for the sake of someone's "greater benefit" may lead this world to an end.
@@TheLasombra077 bitch please, poor people, without resources, are always more generous and helpful to others than the super rich that actually have the resources to help others
@@TheLasombra077 Uh, you do know that this is about money, right? A poor person can't afford to help others get to a different plante, or stop the Faro plague. The rich people however have the money and power to help, but choose not to.
Just having come off a Vampire the Masquerade video, I can't help but see the parallels between the Far Zenith humans and Camarilla elders. Rich, immortal beings with nearly unlimited power who just sit on it and obsess with getting more and lack the practical skills to survive independently. You can even directly break down the big bad trio of Gerard, Tilda, and Erik into representatives of the Ventrue, Toreador, and Brujah mindsets. Own everything and everyone, preserve the shell of artistic beauty over reality, and beat up people to display status rather than for a practical goal.
@@spiritofpostpunk7207 The point of the World of Darkness is there is no point. It is an exercise in nihilism. Every tradition, sect, cult, concordance, faction, or cabal simply exists to fill in the emptiness of a purely material existence. The endless conflicts are the games of jaded immortals trying to stave of boredom. The only groups that get it are the ones who bow out of the conflicts of the past and find their own way. Much like the post-humans of this game.
@@ravendelacour1917 got it at the end path of enlightenment for vampire. All mages must have there own paradigm. Changeling must make the world less full of banality and werewolves are just warriors for a god.
"They gave birth to a child, locked it in a closet by itself then told it to do homework all day long." So their basically the Dursleys but even worse.
The Dursleys abuse of Harry wasn't treated seriously like it should have been. Instead Rowling portrayed them making him sleep in a cupboard, starving him, putting bars on his bedroom window and encouraging Dudley to bully him as funny and wacky.
@@Xehanort10 Ok, that's false. If you actually cared to read the damn books, you wouldn't be saying that. No, what's portrayed as funny in the books is what happens to the Dursleys every time witches and wizards barge in, or when magic is used around them in general. They get hit with enough karma throughout the books that by the final one, they no longer abuse him in any way, directly or indirectly. They all simply agree to leave each other be, which by that point is a simple unspoken agreement up until the Dursleys leave for good.
@@ethanstyant9704 most of them do tho. Zuck did, as did jobs, as did Steve. That's why they are called techbros, think about it for a second please before you just speak.
@bulkinggod3872 Steve Jobs FAMOUSLY did NOT create the tech he pushed! Steve Wosniac was the tech mind behind it all. Even then, the tech was developed in the public sector. Touch screens were developed by NASA and the airforce. WiFi was developed by Hawaii University. The list goes on. Companies just purchase the tech after the fact and amalgamate it.
Immortality didn't make them weak. Greed did. Greed got them all the power, but left them without any of the inspiration or sense of community to do anything with it. She even talked about the Las Vegas guy who opened his doors to others, one of the good ones. Someone like that would thrive with like-minded others while immortal.
In the end they were a bunch of rich assholes who lucked into outliving the civilization they helped destroy. The thing is, without that civilization, they have nothing.
@@poshboy4749 Because humans are social animals that derive a lot of meaning from belonging, reciprocal altruism, and generally working together. It's hard wired into us from a biological perspective, even ignoring the more esoteric and artsy reasons. Also man you sound hollow af ngl
I believe their long-term downfall was their egomania. All they did was to save themselves, so after fleeing Earth they ended up with exactly that: only themselves and nothing else. They weren't even able to form meaningful connections with each other. Their egomania fulfilled over hundreds of years only bred stagnation, while Nemesis is the result of that egomania being denied over a similar time span.
The Hades program from Horizon Zero Dawn should be next on the list. It’s what I like to think as nuanced evil: it isn’t created evil, but rather it is just a product of its programming and it’s only a subcomponent of an overall program.
The way I like to view Hades from the game is I compare Hades to the clone of homelander from the boys in comics. Spoilers but in the comics of the boys bought had created. A clone of homelander just in the inevitable event that he turns on Humanity. the Clone is raised and cared for a lot differently. But it knows its purpose its purpose is to destroy homelander but in the background. It waits like a sleeping giant waiting to do what it was programmed to do but on and on and on homelander stays in line. He doesn't turn on Humanity he's actually trying to be a decent hero in the clone of homelander can't take it anymore he wants to do something he wants to fulfill his role that he was created for but he just can't do it because homelander is being a good guy. Well as good as he can be staying in lying so the Clone ruins his reputation. And drives homelander mad just so he can finally. Do the things he wanted to do the thing he was made for to defeat homelander and be the hero. Compare that to Hades the program that was specifically created to destroy humanity and restart the whole process all over again. If he found Humanity lacking but Humanity was not lacking so Hades had to be put in dormancy but centuries went by he has been stewing stewing trying to find some reason to get rid of humanity some way some reason I finally found a way out and now he ultimately wants to destroy Humanity he has judged them lacking because of his bad programming. Just imagine for example you were born into a wealthy family and you were born to be a musician you went through years and years and years of training skill to perfect to be perfect teachers. Intellectuals skilled artists in piano players watching thousands of videos of how piano players have built their skill and went through their pride. To perfect their skills their trade so you can be better But ultimately some catastrophe happens and now you are unable to do the thing you were. Given a purpose for unable to do it unable to fulfill your goal wouldn't that drive you crazy wouldn't you feel like you've wasted your life
Slight correction, hades was supposed to start over if the biosphere was nonviable. It was permantly shutdown once humanity was reintroduced as there were no more zygotes in storage.
In the game it was revealed that Hades becoming "evil" due to outside (outer space) influence, being the Extinction Signal. And the ES themselves is revealed to be the Far Zenith (Nemesis) all along. Hades itself created with low level AI to operate (well, it's low level when compared to GAIA), but thanks to ES it gain sentience and able to take over GAIA in the process. So I agree that Hades itself that is inherently evil, but it can be seen as an amalgamation of all deranged minds that clumped together forming an entity that is Nemesis, that only purpose (so far) is to avenge it's creator.
34:17 Also, she saved the art for its own sake. Its clear in the game that there was no plan to ever return to earth, and the fact that the vault is still intact suggests that it wasn't as though it was ever planned to be able to be opened by future generations, should Zero Dawn succeed. Art is functionally meaningless without beings capable of interacting with it, and Tilda's inability to recognize that this whole display is a just as much of a monument to her own perceived greatness as Thebes was, really says alot.
It really shows that Stanley Chen was the odd one out when it came to the Zeniths. Like Tilda, he saved and preserved art, a different form of art but still art. Yet unlike Tilda, he wanted people to see and experience what he saved. Even putting the system he built to maintain it on standby, hoping that someone would stumble along and reactivate it on the off chance that Zero Dawn worked. Meanwhile Tilda locked the art she saved in a vault, that only her gene code could open. When Tilda calls Stanley one of the only "good ones", it is clear that she meant the ONLY 'good one'.
Considering the amount of psychopaths among the money elite... it's IMHO pretty realistic to have the Far Zenith people behave like they do. Their problem is that their learned and honed manipulations methods don't work anymore. And their psychopathy also explains their underreaction during potentially lethal encounters as their ability to feel fear or stress is just as numbed as their ability to love or have genuine compassion.
37:44 Also, having seen the Night Watch IRL, that painting is HUGE. Like the scale shown in game might be actually smaller than what it is in real life. My point with bringing up size comes down to this, why save one giant painting when you could have saved a greater number of smaller paintings from a wide range of famous artists from your homeland? I've been to the museum the Night Watch is housed in, and let me tell you, there are hundreds of beautify dutch paintings stored in that museum that are small enough to store in a Pringles can. My personal read on this is the idea that Tilda is the kind of person who would go to the Louvre and only focus on the Mona Lisa, and not take the time to appreciate the other, lesser known masterpieces the room is covered in.
@@justinpatterson5291 Each of those 100,000 opals would've had its own unique flicker and fire. The one 100k opal, is just one opal, you lost all the *variety* by focusing on just the price.
A side note, calling tilda the best of zenith is insulting when we have big man that remade vegas on the Odyssey. Yeah he died on sirius but he should still count
I was talking with my folks about this and honestly, if they'd kept Osvald Dalgard, they could have used him as their diplomat when dealing with Aloy and the other humans on Earth. Osvald was a PR expert and polished spokesman and had what it took to negotiate with people. The rest of the Zeniths were basically used to getting their way all the time and their people skills had basically atrophied to nearly nonexistent levels. They could not have botched their plans any worse than they did.
I am not sure if you brought it up and I missed it, but Tilda was a survivor of a massive flood in Amsterdam that killed thousands, including her parents. instead of being cared for by someone else, she was shipped off to boarding school where she was treated as an outcast. her life has been one of both massive privilege and incredible loss, and it's why I think she's so interesting. like someone with that history was always going to have a tough time of it, but she was so far removed from anything resembling normalcy, of course she ended up the way she did. it's just a tragedy because as you said, unlike a lot of other Zeniths, she was actually accomplished and smart. she is also way more human than any other Zenith we meet (some of the ones we don't directly meet seem like actually good people, like the Vegas guy or the woman who worked in life extension tech - I actually think this kinda weakens the story because like I just can't believe decent people would exist on their colony lol). you talk about how she only connects to art in a selfish way, by looking at it and thinking how she can connect to it, not what art historians say. but to me, that's a very HUMAN way of thinking! building up a relationship that ended weirdly and unsatisfactorily into being something other than what it was, into some great lost love, is also very HUMAN. it's twisted by a thousand years of being alone with sociopaths, but yeah. I think that's what stands out about Tilda as well. I also hope we learn more about Peter Tshivhumbe in the third game. he was the founder of Far Zenith. he was dead before they left for space, but he was obsessed with digital immortality and apparently more on the side of things where he genuinely wanted to make the world a better place. I feel like he is the key to understanding Nemesis and I've got a theory of my own... but we'll have to see! OHHHH TED FARO GET HIS ASSSSSSS
You were so close to this observation but the way Tilda speaks about Aloy and Elisabet, the way she seeks to collect them like they were one of her paintings is more than just artistic appreciation it's tied to the way she speaks about herself in a diminished way and the way she speaks of Elisabet and Aloy so highly. She covets Aloy like an object because she thinks by "owning" her she will gain her will, her drive or whatever she sees in Aloy that she feels she lacks. Whether she knows it or not she is seeking to subsume Aloy into herself by collecting her or more accurately collecting the idealized version of her she has dreamt up in her mind. "co-dependence and malignance" doesn't even begin to describe her. But people like her are unfortunately not uncommon. Those like Tilda take the idea of finding *YOUR* other half to an unhealthy extreme.
Far Zenith are rats. For all their technology the instant they meet a threat the only thing they can do is run. Without their shields they drop like rocks, they've been "gods" for so long they've forgotten fear. Meanwhile the residents of Earth have learned to survive and fight enemies that are technologically superior without necessarily understanding how that technology works. It's essentially the same problem as the first game, since Aloy and her companions have clearly been improving their technological capability compared to the "The Focus is magic" from the first game, and in the first game the opponents...were evil, but not coddled like Zenith.
I love how the painting of Endymion and Selene is used. Cause in their myth, the clossest greek interpretation of love to Selene's feelings for Endymion is Mania, obsessive, possesive, dehumizing 'love', she watches him sleep, falls in love with him, asks Zeus to makes him sleep forever, and has multiple children with him while he's in eternal slumber, she loves the idea of him, not him. And that seems to fit so perfectly the relationship of Tilda with Elizabeth, how Tilda may think she is so perceptive to detail, but can't clock how unreal her love is, or how unreal the love in the painting, in the myth is, she misunderstood this painting as much as she misundertood Jeremiah's painting.
As the Far Zenith Deaths as stupid and pathetic as can be. It also made sense why they had to die like that. In their minds, they are invincible as they seemed a good Villian death is from the unexpected. As powerful they thought they were a lowlife can harm them. Now that is poetic.
A criticism I’ve heard for Far Zeniths is that they were underdeveloped. That because of how suddenly they were introduced, and how quickly they were taken out, that it cut their potential too short and left things half-baked. This was a criticism I agreed with in the beginning, but taking in your video I can start to see that Far Zenith is an example of a symbolic failed narrative. Their lack of complexity, brought on by their selfishness and pampered lives makes them both physically and narratively underdeveloped. It emphasizes their own wasted potential, something that Tilda comments on. I still would have loved to see and interact with a more vibrant Far Zenith, but I can appreciate the narrative logic.
1:01:23 Also I'd say its a fundamental lack of developed empathy. They simply do not care about people without a direct connection or benefit to them. They care about THEIR future, no one else's. Same with Ted Faro, who created a machine that was the perfect product, but a TERRIBLE idea to help anyone other than himself. I think the whole Horizon series is about Empathy and how important it is to have it.
I view Ted as someone who fits the trope of "the road to hell is pathed with good intentions". It is possible that he did actually want to do good in the world through his company. I mean it worked on green technologies and robotics even before Sobeck joined. However pride got the best of him once he was named "the man who saved the world". And with the Hot Zone Crisis changing how warfare is waged, he allowed his pride to create the ultimate weapon. Believing that any 'glitches' would never happen as it was his idea.
45:01 I've found this aspect of the Zeniths interesting aswell. I remember when Tilda joins you at your base before you attack the rest of the Zeniths, if you talk to Zo she'll say something like "I'd say Tilda smelled like death but that would suggest she smelt of anything at all, the only thing I can compare it to is the smell of metal."
Far Zenith are interesting in just how _uninteresting_ they really are. Because they never had to struggle they forgot how to _live_ and only really exist within their own minds. It's why they wanted digital transcendence. Even though they were functionally immortal they didn't believe they needed bodies anymore because they never had to do anything that bodies require. They wanted to live in their own consciousness as much as they could and it doomed them. It's why they died so pathetic. They didn't have the instinct necessary to preserve their lives. They forgot what danger was. It's also why they fled from Nemesis. If they had put their minds to it they might have even been able to contain or destroy Nemesis, but doing something like that requires drive, something Far Zenith lacked.
Yea. Tilda herself even said they stagnated, had eternity, and they could've achieved more. And that it took them almost being wiped out to wake them out of their stupor
"Far Zenith is fatally short-sighted." Good thing to note: they mention that most, maybe even imply that all, IIRC, of Far Zenith's colonists were narcissists, and a couple common traits among those with Narcissistic Personality Disorder is impulsiveness and difficulty in long term planning.
Damn, I didn't really think about that. Also, Tilda died in a really pathetic way too. She could've collaborated with Aloy and crew against the threat of Nemesis. But no, she put Aloy on a pedestal like she did Elisabet, and wants to kidnap her using a massive robot. And she still dies. Honestly, its kind of sad. Great video though. Hope that you analyze Aloy (walking savior complex) and/or Sylens (absolute sociopath on the level of Zeniths) after you analyze Ted.
It’s easy for Aloy to have a walking saviour complex when she was literally created to save the world by rebuilding Gaia and she is the only one who can do it due to her genetic code. At least until Beta comes along. And I find Sylens very nuanced. When Aloy disrupts his plans for the Tenakth assault he isnt angry, he doesn’t rant or rave he accepts his plan has failed but believes Aloy when she says she has an alternative plan. He doesn’t allow pride to distract him from his goals.
@@maxpower3990 Whilst Sylens is nuanced, it is evident that he doesn't really care about the faceless others that his plans would affect. He would have thrown the entire Tenakth tribe into the Zenith meat grinder just for him to have access to APOLLO. I do agree with you about Aloy though. However, that behavior is incredibly self-destructive, considering the obstacles that she faces in the main storyline of HFW.
@@spaceshipearth481 A big part of the game is Aloy confronting her issues. Personally I'm not sure it went deep enough outside of her pushing people away but they could be saving a deeper look at her psyche for the next game. It's obvious to see how Aloy ended up the way she did, (the Nora really are a messed up society) but it'd be cool to see Aloy herself really confront her upbringing, not just how messed up it was but how it effects her behavior as an adult. I really feel like they should've included Avad more in FW, Aloy's relationship with him specifically would've been the perfect way to confront her issues. Does she really have no feelings for Avad or is that just her fear of connecting to and relying on others talking, does she even know? After all Avad confronted his issues around Ersa for her, so it'd would've been good for Aloy to confront her issues and really see if being Queen of Meridian could be in her future. I mean Seyka is cool and all, though it does fall into the trope of every strong badass woman having to be a lesbian (cough* The 100 *cough). i just feel like expanding on Aloy and Avads relationship was a real missed opportunity that would've fit well with the themes of the game.
@@MsMarco6 I felt like Aloy didn't really have feelings for Avad. Avad seemed like he was projecting his grief for Ersa on someone very similar to her. But that's just my interpretation. My only problem with the whole Seyka romance thing was that it was in a DLC. Aloy actually opening up to someone in that way is a very major step in her character development that should have been saved for the 3rd game. If Guerilla continues down this Seyka romance path, I hope that she's in the 3rd game in some capacity, so that we can see Aloy actually learn how to overcome her antisocial tendencies by being in such a relationship
@@spaceshipearth481 My point with Avad wasn't that Aloy definitely liked him, it's that she didn't even stop to consider whether or not she did. Her refusal had nothing todo with him, he could've been the most attractive, kind, funny etc person in the world and she still would've acted the same way. It was all about her fear of connection and her inability to consider any other life than running around solo saving everyone else until she gets herself killed. And did that change so much in Forbidden West. I mean she's no longer running solo, but is still to hell bent on her never-ending suicidal mission to consider a life outside of that. I mean really think about it, despite everything she's been through was the Aloy in the Burning Shores really so different from the Aloy in Meridian. In both thought and action she still feels very much the same, she has a few more friends but it's not like she didn't have any b4. The Aloy in Meridian would've rejected Seyka without even blinking, I didn't feel like enough had changed for that to be different. I guess i just feel like one more conversation with Avad genuinely considering his offer from her perspective (and yeah she would've said no 90%) would've left her character in a better place for the DLC.
People always claim we want immortality. We truly desire to do whatever we can while alive. Zenith keep looking for higher immortality, thinking it will make them happy.
people chase what we cant possess. it is a huam flaw that either moves us forward or our downfall. this is why we fear death. in the end we have no controll over it nor can predict when it'll accour or in what way. thats were the strife for immortality stems from. without death than theres no fear.
At first I was confused as to why they named Nemesis, well Nemesis. As the only exposure to the word was in relation to heroes and villains. Then I found out about the Greek Goddess and it fits so well. The Zeniths wanted to be Gods, more than Gods. Someone had to remind them that they are still mortal. And clearly it did not work, as someone like Londra, who was involved in the project that led to Nemesis being created, continued to view himself and even sold himself as a God to the Quen.
nemesis means retaliation and vengance. thats what the godess represent. this is why shes depicted blind, with a either a sword or a whip on her right hand and weights on the left hand. shes connected with the court of law who measures the crime that has bin commited.@@jordanread5829
@IronForce-ff2qx that may be true, but they all still boil down to the same principle that's engraved in their code. They just want power for power's sake. They have no grand design for building an empire that will last, is efficient, or is even particularly secure. Nothing matters beyond their own glory. Their individual philosophies of the Force, and their plans to gain power all vary, but the goal and motivation is pretty universal.
We only have Tilda's description of Nemesis. A person that is willing to do anything to get what she wants. How can anything she said about Nemesis be trusted? What a twist it would be if Nemesis might have actually grown a conscience from all that sociopath data. It might have even run the scenarios and found that corporation was, and not selfishness, the best way to survive. It might be hunting Far Zenith because they are the ones just consuming, not building, and Nemesis is trying to stop their path of destruction.
Immortality, nepotism, capital and past grandeurs of political socio-economic might. The ultra space 1% are truly pathetic and satisfying to go up against. Thanks a million for the video, not a lot of Horizon love or discussion out there for one of my favorite series
Immortality did not make them weak because to be made weak you first off have to be strong they never were strong so they never became strong they were always weak plain and simple🤣🤣🤣
@@SaraMorgan-ym6ue So wealth and capitalist-political power isn’t a kind of strength? But we both agree that isn’t true strength, right? Horizon is about finding inner-strength within oneself and through a tribe(collective/friendship). The economic and influential might of Far Zenith is below the bar in surviving in this world now, and lingering for 1000 years in VR is just a long, pathetic rain check in them realizing this.
Theres so many people commenting on here calling the game crap because they simply fail to understand the story thats being told. Far zenith are portrayed as this extremely advanced civilisation that had to flee the planet they settled on due to another fatal mistake they made with the creation of nemesis. They came to earth to temporarily escape it so they could steal GAIA and force it to build a new world in their image for their benefits. Despite the technology they had, they accomplished absolutely nothing apart from cheating death and becoming in their own image invincible. They had all this knowledge of humanity that was completely lost after the literal end of the world, yet they instead chose to sit around on their planet for 1000s of years in virtual reality wasting time for their own pleasure because to them it was infinite. Far zenith themselves thought they were unstoppable and nothing could oppose them because of this tech they had, but the moment they lost their shelds, they died in such a pathetic ways. Their immortality made them weak and ultimately all they ended up being was a bunch of losers from the old world with colourful spacesuits that could cheat death. They literally created and abandoned a pet project (nemesis) that ultimately destroyed them. Their own incompetence destroyed them! This is the story they were going for, its the whole point of this faction. They are supposed to be bad villans since thats the path they built for themselves. Stop hating on a games story when your too dumb to understand it.
If there were any villains I'd love to see you tackle in the future, it would have to the Prophet of Truth, from Halo, and Queen Myrrah, from Gears of War. I feel there's a lot that could be said about their motivations and the horrific methods they go through to achieve them. Looking forward to the video on Ted Faro. Keep up the amazing work.
I love Tilda deeply. I wish the game gave us more conversations with Til and hell even other Zeniths. I hope she will be in next game. She has to in Nemesis but i mean physically. My dutch lesbian stole my heart help😘🥹🤣🤣 One more thing the whole part with Tilda in the galery is so much more then what you said. You were right but it was not the whole thing..
I thought the selection of Selene and Endymion was such a good choice. Endymion in the myth is very much an object of Selene's infatuation: eternally lovely and sleeping, hers to gaze upon and act upon, but not a partner to her or an actor in his own right. Edit: Also, I cannot wait for the roasting of Ted Faro. Get him!
Looking forward to the Faro video. God, Ted must be the villain I hate most in all the video games I have personally played. Just the idea that he destroyed Apollo gives me almost physical pain.
@@Rellana1 Didn't the Far Zeniths have a copy of Apollo, Eleuthia, and Artemis? Beta not only mentioned how they had them once she appears at your base and at the end of the game, you can see them bringing back GAIA with every subordinate function except Hades and Hephaestus.
I noticed one more thing - Tilda, when first time explaining the Nemesis, said that it immediately hacked Far Zenith systems, as it knew all the passwords. It wonders me, how often they had changed them and how they failed to develop some more advanced way of cybersecurity measures... The problem is similar like in the Man of Steel. Would Zod cooperate, Kal-El would give him Codex and Zod could get his planet, like Mars, and still be super flying dude.
At the art gallery you can press Examine multiple times on the same art piece getting different dialogs. It is easy to overlook and gives much more information
You know, given the shallow, petty, sadistic people it was spawned from? I think Nemesis' motivation could easily and believably be "well WE didn't get to kill them, you stole that from us, so now we'll have to settle for killing you instead."
@wintertrooper7918 I doubt it does. If nemesis is the zeniths mind together then they nemesis knows the zenithe abandoned all other humans and were never at fault to begin with. My guess is after a long battle in the third game nemesis would agree to work with GIA to rebuild the world
Your description of the Zeniths is the perfect image of today's elites; hopelessly pathetic while they consider us as cockroaches and only live for additional riches and pleasure without caring for the rest of humanity.
Looks at the Far Zeniths- rich ppl who contributed nothing/little to society, power of just having a lot of money, screwing over their own workers, having no longterm goals and unable to see beyond their immediate gratification Looks at our current billionaires... Damn the game really nailed them didnt they lmaooo I agree I hope Nemisis in the end isnt a one note villian, but due to the human emotions it has we can connect to it like how Gaia was changed by knowing Elizabet
Eh some of them achieved a lot. Like one created an extremely good water filtration system, which helped supply everybody with drinkable water. Of course that's the exception there were a lot of ones that were just rich, like Gerard and Verbana or Erik, but there were a few people with contributions amonst them.
@senittoaoflightning4404 i hate to bring down the one semi "good" rich guy.... but if public programs were decently funded there would be no need for the random rich ppl to come save the day lol
@@beccaf.3294Well, they had a huge climate crisis. But yeah, even that could have been avoided far earlier. Though they tried with VAST SILVER, it failed as the program went rouge.
Kinda funny how the leader of this utopian society is pretty much just someone with "Cash" an investor who is just filthy rich. But honestly in an apocalyptic world that does not use "Money". what in the H can he do?. He got no leader skills, he just wants an instant pay off. Honestly you summed it up perfectly. especialy with the first death scene we see of these Zenith. The whole modern aristocracy having been removed for so long from the normal struggles of the world, they just don't really get anything or can do anything for themselves
On my 3rd playthrough, I finally realized there is a lot more dialog with the art pieces. Love being able to discover new things even after hundreds of hours of playtime.
The first game was my favorite game of all time but the writing just wasn't as strong in the sequel and I am not really interested in the new murder human/ai hybrid that is setup for the third game. I feel like the villains for forbidden west were not well written and if done better would have made a great recurring threat that could carry into the third game.
@@beaswork8520 For me they were just going for different things. The best thing about Zero dawn was the strong hook which was the mystery. With that revealed and with the set up after that , I really enjoyed the story. Plus I just think the characters themselves were just way better in HFW and I liked how much more they had to do. Beaides that , the actual game stuff was just better , side quests , tallnecks, cauldrons. So all of that together makes it hard for me to not rate HFW over HZD even though I did really like that mystery aspect of the first game.
@20:00 It looked to me like she didn't realize her shield had been taken down. The fact that she was as of yet unharmed would be good enough reason for her to assume that her shield was still working which makes her reaction make perfect sense.
"are we supposed to be scared?" *Loses impervious shield* "Oh shit I'm fucking spooked and running right the fuck now holy shit holy ahit holy shit run run run run!" Literally the most pathetic people possible. As soon as their one sided way of winning is gone they pissed their pants so hard it made them fly faster.
Horizon Forbidden West was the first and only game I went into completely blind, having loved the first game. Call me biased bc of that but the story of this game was something else man.
Thinking about it, Nemesis probably would find them eventually anyway. It's a data repository of all of Far Zenith's collective information and psyches. Even if Far Zenith had succeeded either with or without Tilda's involvement. Once Nemesis got to earth and wiped it, it'd likely just take a bit to think over where they would've gone, then just zoomed on after them. It's another instance of Far Zenith being doomed to fail because they choose convenience over what will actually solve the problem.
One thing not mentioned but I think may be interesting considering the subject matter: We have no idea how the human mind would cope with memories going back multiple centuries. The human mind is barely capable of containing a century worth of memories, it start to unravel before that point. So it seems likely that part of their complacency is a result of them quite literally forgetting several key skillsets and lessons as they lost parts of themselves over the centuries.
Nice Streets of Rage background at the end! This is a very insightful and interesting look at the villains of FW and thank you for putting it together. I enjoyed that you showed the data point describing the loss of the Odyssey from HZD. It is interesting that we had different reactions to it though. Between that data point and Faro's destruction of Apollo I began to believe that the Odyssey accident was actually a lie to protect the ship from the Faro plague or other retaliation. Like you, I rather lament how Far Zenith was portrayed in FW from the very start. I didn't put it together until watching your videos, but it would seem that the goal was to make them villains as compelling as Ted Faro was. He might have been a bit unintentional, but he was so well written as a villain that he made me feel physical anger despite not one true appearance on screen. The members of Far Zenith, on the other hand, felt as shallow as the villains in a post 2010 Marvel movie. Even with the writers from HZD (and Shadow of Mordor!) returning it is notable that the quality of writing between HZD and FW varies quite a bit, and recent events may have shed a bit more light on this. Despite outside influence there still is a lot of good, such as the way Tilda fails to understand art. I am glad you focused on that since it is a part of the game that feels like it has the quality of HZD.
I see the writers of this series tend to portray all villains as pathetic losers, like Hellis and Ted Faro, perhaps to show that you don't need to be a super-villain with a Machiavellian plan to hurt, kill and bring about world destruction, at least indirectly. All it takes is stupidity, selfishness, greed, cowardice, and a bit of mental instability, and even the most common of men can become humanity's worst enemy. Faro's greed and cowardice led to extinction, Hellis gullibility and messianic complex almost did the same, and Far Zenith selfishness and superiority complex created Nemesis. Beside that, I'm glad to see someone caught the fact that it was Tilda laying out the plan to steal Gaia. I've always been baffled at people portraying her relationship with Elisabet like some sort of tragic love, when it is clear she's always been manipulative and obsessive, even when she talks about Elisabet it's always by explaining how she basically manipulated her into a relationship, and I think Elisabet wasn't fooled for long, that's why she not only cut ties but knew full well that Tilda was involved in the attempted theft of Gaia.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the same. When Tilda talks about her relationship with Liz she does so in a very superficial way and given her history, you know that she is not telling you the whole truth. How far can we believe her? Especially when Liz isn't around to give her side of the story. I was afraid that the writers wanted to redeem Tilda, when she doesn't deserve it. Can you imagine how deep her betrayal went? Who knows how long their relationship lasts, but that's the least of it. She said that she loved her, but she did not hesitate to board Far Zenith's ship and leave Earth and Liz. She said that they tricked her by selling her a utopian idea of the project, that was a lie, she was basically a spy, do you really think I'm going to believe that she didn't know anything until she got on the ship? The above is bad enough, now let's add that she conspired to rob GAIA and also stole Liz's DNA (only she had the opportunity, the tools and the motive to do it). She allowed a clone of her ex (whom she claimed to love so much) to be created, she allowed her to be enslaved and still gets offended when she "isn't like Liz", she despises her for being a "bad copy". In conclusion, this woman is a horrible, obsessive, manipulative person and she never loved anyone but herself, to the point of atrociously betraying her former partner. Excellent video. Excellent comment. Sorry for my bad English. Me alegra no ser la única que piensa lo mismo. Cuando Tilda habla de su relación con Liz lo hace de forma muy superficial y dado su historial, sabes que no te está diciendo toda la verdad. ¿Hasta dónde podemos creerle? Especialmente cuando Liz no está para dar su versión de los hechos. Temía que los escritores quisieran redimir a Tilda, cuando ella es insalvable. ¿Pueden imaginar lo profunda que fue su traición? Quién sabe cúanto tiempo duró su relación, pero eso es lo de menos. Dijo que la amaba, pero no dudó en abordar la nave de Far Zenith y dejar la Tierra y a Liz. Dijo que la engañaron vendiéndole una idea utópica del proyecto, eso fue una mentira, ella era básicamente una espía, ¿enserio piensa que me voy a creer que no sabía nada hasta que se subió a la nave? Si lo anterior ya es bastante grave ahora añadamos que conspiró para robar a GAIA y también robó el ADN de Liz (sólo ella tenía la oportunidad, los medios y el motivo para hacerlo). Permitió que se creara un clon de su ex (a la que tanto decía amar), permitió que fuera esclavizada y todavía se ofende cuando "no es como Liz", la desprecia por ser una "copia inferior". En conclusión esta mujer es una persona horrible, obsesiva, manipuladora y nunca amó a nadie más que a sí misma, al punto de traicionar atrozmente a la que fuera su pareja. Excelente video. Excelente comentario.
I had two theories after my playthrough of Zero Dawn; 1) Vast Silver sent the signal to wake hades. 2) the zeniths didn't die and sent the signal to give themselves a "new" home. I was right. My prediction for game three? Vast silver is used in pair with the weapons system mentioned by Londra to defeat Nemesis.
Gerard Bieri likely only became their leader after actual FZ leadership got killed by Nemesis, and no one bothered to question his ascension. Had they survived, Song Jiao and the Zenith members responsible for creating Nemesis might've made a more credible threat. Somewhat.
I'd actually love a video diving into Hephaestus. NGL, I feel like its a much more complicated antagonist than most people realize on a first playthrough. In alot of ways, its not really a true villain as much as it is a being with goals that fail to line up with those of the point of view characters. If it wanted to wipe out all life or even just all humans, it could easily recreate the Fero drones. I'm almost wondering if the way they will ultimately beat Hephaestus might involve the idea of agreeing to not kill its creations on mass anymore.
something i love about the Zeniths being so far out of touch that they never even considered the idea of simply deleting Nemesis, because for them solving a problem is too much effort when they can just abandon it & continue to live in their hedonistic fantasy. also the fact that Alloy isn't really as influential as Tilda thinks, yeah she made things better & saved the world from HADES doing it's job, but the world still remained more or less unchanged
I love the breakfast scene where Aloy and Tilda meet. It's such a great contrast. Aloy is tanned, a little ruddy cheeked since she has been exerting herself, but she looks alive. Tilda on the other hand looks like an alabaster statue. There's nothing human left. Showing one next to a young healthy human shows how inhuman they have become. Also Carrie-Anne Moss's voice acting. It's not explicit but you know Tilda is lying in this scene and Moss absolutely nails the subtle inflections that give away that she's not being honest.
I absolutely adore the fact that in the Horizon series, unchecked capitalism and the 1% are the causes for the apocalypse. Greed ends humanity. Can't imagine THAT actually happening...
Someone on a kotaku thread once said there's a datalog that pinpoints the moment of key stupidity that brings it all crashing down, something about Faro selling Horuses to both sides of a conflict without thinking about what would happen when that adaptive AI started adapting off itself without safeguards. (I mean, this AND the 'what if robots could use biomass to make more robots! Genius!')
@@twigcollins8785 That's not quite the moment. The true moment is when he orders his programmer not to leave in a failsafe backdoor of any kind in his robots because he wants them to be the bestest badass battle machines. And then he is completely shocked when he can't retroactively order a backdoor to exist once the plague starts. He was the typical rich guy who thought consequences only exist when he wills it.
That is what makes them good - some villains need to be total hedonistic self-obsessed, self-circlejerking loosers to have variety of villain types in all of the media, basically to show that not all villains are super powerful like Evil Superman or super smart like Joker.
This has become my fav video game series and can't wait for the third. Aloy definitely one of my fav characters in vg history. Think Guerrilla did an amazing, underrated job with this world. I appreciate you breaking down this type of villainy because its quite relatable to real life in how the wealthiest people are looked up to being great simply because of their wealth and stature. But also how they can come across as the most arrogant, self absorbed sociopaths. Only concerned with themselves at the cost of others. You definitely broke down their character in some deep critique that highlights what the writing dev team was trying to convey with FZ. Well done. There are villains that some folks root for. I think the best villains are the ones where you hate them as much as the protagonist does. You cant wait for the comeuppance. Far Zenith reminds me of Commodus in Gladiator. You know he was the villain from the first time he was on screen. Phoenix played an incredible role as the villain that you cant wait to get killed by Maximus.
Thank you, that was a brilliant analysis! I also hope that Nemsis is an interesting villain, since there is hardly any lore left that could provide an interesting story. The story should focus even more on interpersonal relationships in order to be interesting. Nemesis could be a cool character to carry the story.
First time I saw Far Zenith, I went: "Ah fuck, they're Orokin." 17:00 What's scarier than a killbot A.I? An idiot bully wearing a starship. No wonder Nemesis is malicious, with all these rich, immortal, experienced senile morons _screaming_ inside it.
For all her mentioning of "my people" and saving great Dutch paintings, she seems to have lost any ACTUAL connection to Dutch culture/identity. If there ever even was any. I say this, because even though her name include the word "van", she cannot actually pronounce it correctly. To be honest, the real reason is probably that the voice actor simply can't speak Dutch, even though it seems she did try her best to pronounce it correctly. It just so happens that what we get in game sounds so much like a Dutch person who has all but forgotten how to actually speak Dutch correctly (Very possible, I've actually seen some lesser cases of this). So I choose to believe that even though she's proud to be Dutch on the surface, she has not spoken Dutch for probably a thousand years. Which is very fitting for the type of shallowness and uncaringness she is.
Reminds me of the vampire lestat. He tries so hard to come off as civilized and talks about things which he lost all feeling and knowledge about but it makes him seem civil. Dude lived for so long he has forgotton, which gets called out by other vampires who didnt lose their humanity, which makes him flustered as fuck
Nemesis remind me of the beast in infamous we all thought it was a monster but it turn out it was one person making the next human evolution making super people
With the second painting in the art galery, it also kind of shows how she sees herself in relation to Aloy and probably Elizabeth. She a powerful goddess, while Aloy and Elizabeth should be beneath her, just simple mortals. It might even imply that Aloy or Elizabeth should be happy about receiving her love, the love of someone who usually shouldn't even notice them.
The only thing that bothers me about the deaths of the Far Zenith is how little affected they are. Being the stupid, selfcentered bastards they are, the immortality must have made them consider themselves gods. Losing the sight of death. Them dying should be even more terrifying for them than for a normal person. The fact that we don't see them screaming in terror as they try to avoid the fate they should have met a long time ago feels disappointing to me
Between Faro and Far Zenith, you really have to give credit to Guerrilla Games for having the balls for choosing to make such fundamentally pathetic villains, and the skill at writing them so well.
I disagree simply because she had the chance. They created Beta and ignored her, they had a guy just murdering people for a thousand years, I'm sure that Grooming would not count in the top ten worst things done in VR there. I'm not sure how many would blink an eye as long as she didn't break the "Tool".
@@jack727dave5 correction, she had the chance and saw Beta wasn’t like the Elisabet she remembered. You’re still right but it’s more because she lost interest.
Her character becomes alot more icky when you realize she attempted to groom what are essentially her ex-girlfriends daughters, abandoned and neglected one when she didn't meat her "standards" and tried to forcibly take the "better version" to be her replacement wife
Imagine if Nemesis comes to Earth planning to wipe away the rest of humanity, but changes it's mind simply because they're a lot less insufferable than the Far Zenith?
Yeah we already killed Nemesis's enemies so it'd be nice if they show up, go "Mission Complete" and move on. But since it's all the Zeniths combined, it probably will just see Earth as a new playground and become the new God Dictator
I think it is implied or even told that there were other Zeniths who were actually talented individuals and made the technological advancements they had. However, those Zeniths died and only the worst and most ruthless ones made it back to earth after nemesis. It could even be theorized that these 13 Zeniths probably killed some of the other Zeniths in order to escape from the nemesis in the ensuing chaos.
There was another far zenith we do know of that doesn’t make it to earth- Stanley Chen. He was intelligent and saved Las Vegas when a massive drought threatened to destroy any human settlements in the Nevada area back before the apocalypse. He’s sentimental attachment to his greatest achievement, leaving him unable to fully shut down Americas playground, actually help Aloy save and restore GAIA. And he was noted by the other far zeniths to be kind and respectful person that shared his inventions even on their Sirius Colony. Tilda, despite herself, remembers him fondly and seems just as upset at his death as she was about Elisabet’s. Probably because they both shared qualities that were for humanity and not themselves
One thing I wish you had covered was Stanley Chen. A man who had been tricked into losing everything, he decided to throw his last remnants of fortune into the casino in Las Vegas, believing he had nothing left. Miraculously, he won, and rebuilt himself in a single night. Seeing it as a second chance at life, he got back to work, becoming a billionaire over the next years. Unfortunately, due to a water crisis, Las Vegas was on the verge of collapse, until Stanley came to save it by introducing a revolutionary water filtration system, all for the mission of saving the city he believed had once saved him. Under his leadership, Vegas became a paradise of fun and enjoyment, until the Faro Plague. Tellingly, as he was fleeing, Stanley decided last minute to not turn off the pleasure district he built, hoping that, if anything survived, that they enjoy what it had to offer. A millennium later, Aloy does just that, revitalizing and turning that place into a thriving community of entertainment in a world that desperately needs it.
Stanley went with Far Zenith, since it was his only option. However, while the rest of his compatriots shut themselves away in hedonistic daydreams, Stanley Chen never lost his humanity. If you ask Tilda, she'll mention how he recreated his dream city in VR, and up until the very end, his doors were always open to any who wanted a night in the city of dreams. His story proves that not all Zeniths were terrible. There were those who legitimately wanted to do good with the gifts they had. That he died with the advent of Nemesis is one of the biggest tragedies of Forbidden West in my opinion.
I loved reading all those datapoints showing Stanley’s story. It made the end of that quest all the more emotional.
He was a man who deeply wanted to repay the city that gave him his life back. He was a generous sort who probably didn't want to see people disconnect and lose their humanity. Hence why he kept his doors open both on Earth and on the colony. Like you mentioned, he also developed a water filtration system to keep Vegas alive and turn it into a paradise. That shows his commitment to creating a better world and a concern for the people and environment around him. Always thinking, always building.
To be fair, Stanley Chen was just so different from the rest of the Zenith's, that it's easy to forget he was one of them. Definitely an oversight from FatBrett though, but as he mentioned, the Zeniths rebuilt their old lives in digital form, including Stanley. They didn't really build anything new, as far as we're aware, they never gave birth to any offspring, they didn't build more ships and make more colonies. They just shut themselves away for a thousand years, wasting the potential they had. Though Stanley at least seemed to be one of their more open and good members.
i would argue that escapism is really not a positive quality
@@theinspiredgamer1949 The horizon series is the only series I was compelled to read absolutely everything about within the game.
Making the rich survivors of the apocalypse just incompetent, deceptive rich snobs is very accurate.
Honestly, I like this direction considering the state of the real world. Billionaires like Bezos and Musk are funding a lot of space exploration projects. But are they really doing it for the benefit and future of humankind or they are looking for a way out of the planet and human society that they and their class are slowly destroying
And even those that had some useful skill, were only competent by comparison and the fact they had access to advanced tech and knowledge... and they couldn't even use those well.
@@Alacaelum they were ONLY humans. We have access to way less information and still suck ass at using it. They had oceans of knowledge more. Way more than any human could comprehend or use in meaningfull way. Like we literally go in that direction right now. In direction where our input turns into idea of direction of research and we leave rest to AI. I think FatBrett has way too unrealistic idea of humanity. Setting new goals is like pointing to a place on the horizon and deciding "we go there". Easy when you are in a pond, gets really difficult when you are in the middle of ocean and see no shore in any direction. Plus Far Zenith crowd were, most of them, normals, just with a lot of money.
@@korinogaro If you are lost in an ocean, learn to read the stars to find your direction.
They were also just like 70 people aswell, it was never sustainable for rebuilding humanity anyway.
Not to mention the situation they were facing, true total extinction and they got an imortality vaccine aswell, so even if all of them were not insane by the time they left the 10 times longer lifetime they had lived, in a virtual simulations were they were "god" absolutly drove them insane aswell.
And i mean, how would you make a vilanous story were only one or two of the 70-ish Zeniths were evil.
“They are also probably the most pathetic villains I have covered on this channel”
You know things are bad when G5 Iguazu is less pathetic.
Well he at least has his moment in his final boss after merging with allmind. He snatches control from the all intelligent, all powerful AI and becomes more dangerous alone, shutting down Ayre as well.
The Far Zenith never get their impressive moment, they never overcome a stronger threat, they never have their big showy moment.
Iguazu just your average mercenary and he was overpowering powerful AI by sheer of saltyness, you cant compare him for basically WEF council wearing something for Paris Fashion week after party orgy.
@@jalpat2272Iguazu will forever be remembered as the ultimate King of Salt.
Iguazu at least was skilled, had drive (or being salty), and can fight. The only wrench in that was being compared to Raven(us)
Iguazu would be annoyed and squash them
When Far Zenith comes up there are quite a few people who just go "bad villians, just comically evil" but i really like them, they are the literal worst humanity has to offer one could even argue that with all the technology they have inside them the probably aren't even strictly human anymore (Erik bleeds white when killed) which is a nice contrast to Aloy and her companions and Elisabet herself
This is they aren't what I would categorize as " comically evil". If the last decade has taught me anything about tech billionaires, is that if anything these characters are a tame take.
Totally agree. Remember kids, obscene money and power gives you brain worms.
@@scarlthesnarl5581 Literally, ther have been studies done showing that higher income people think they are inherently more capable and deserving, they also have more misplaced confidence ie. they were asked to predict dice rolls, if i remember correctly, and the more wealthy you were the higher you confidence even when the outcome is random
Not multiply that by 10000 and you get the Zeniths.
Case study in how meritocracy is a moving target based on society's needs.
Its what I hate about the whole Horizon story. Its so badly written, with such comically evil but powerful villains. I wish evil rich people were that incompetent in real life.
I've noticed that people demand an abnormal amount of nuance from fictional characters. Real world people can just suck. Why shouldn't fictional characters reflect that.
"immortality Made Them Weak." They're literally a bunch of billionaires who bought their way onto a ship to abandon the world, and one military officer too cowardly to stay behind and fight against the enemy destroying humanity. Immortality didn't make them weak, they were already weak to begin with.
The fact that the soldier they brought with them is the one who was too cowardly to fight and die like every single other soldier is just perfect.
@@Tom_Cruise_Missilecowardly is a stupid thing to call someone not tryna die for no reason. Is an ant cowardly from running from my boot?
@@bulkinggod3872No, the ant that you want to stomp has no way of fighting back nor any chance to survive under your heel.
But the act of defying fate and facing ultimate annihilation in a humble way and humanizing way is beautiful beyond words.
To fight against a collapsing world and still coming out alive and prosperous is very definition of humanity's undying and unbreakable sheer will and indomitable spirit.
@@bulkinggod3872 he was a coward. Everyone else has to hold back this horrific monstrosities and will inevitably die to buy time, and he ran away. That is a cowardly decision.
@@bulkinggod3872 Where everyone else in the world was fighting to hold back the endless tide of machines, he left. Part of that was because the guy in question was a genuine psychopath who loved killing people, but there were likely plenty of psychotics in the army fighting off the machines. When he returned, he gleefully killed people, and died fighting. Would that he could have done so against the machines, but then, he could see any point to fighting that didn't involve getting his rocks off.
Fun fact: Far Zenith was initially doing the whole space travel thing for the benefit of humanity, but a change in leaders shifted that goal into what we see in Forbidden West. And when I say change in leaders, I mean within the game itself.
That will happen, sadly.
You’re saying it hasn’t happened already.
@xfel5913 No I didn't. I said the leaders of Far Zenith changed, leading to the shift in goals.
Although it seems like there was also a shift in goals on the game development side.
Zd had a bit more subtlety and nuance than fw. Faro was handled drastically different and alloy seemed to undergo a pretty drastic personality shift as well.
@@kyriss12 Yeah, it's why the story is still good yet the gameplay is just hard to get to the story. Yet Far Zenith could have been done better.
"It is implied that Dalgaard was killed by Far Zenith" because his talents "could be easily performed by a holographic "digital puppet" based on recordings of his extensive career."
They fucking wrote in that AI replaced their spokesperson.
HOLY SHIT
I wonder what his last thoughts were.
Yes, it's not all that surprising considering that AI is prevalent in the Horizon world
And then they created an AI replaceing themselves. Heh.
“He’d been beyond anything like a threat for so long that all the reflexes of survival had weakened, atrophied”. - Abbadons Gate, the expanse books. This came to mind when watching this.
"Peace has cost you your strength, victory has defeated you" also seems to work here.
@@C00kiesAplenty
I was thinking the same quote as well. Say what you want about dark knight rises, Tom hardy made a good bane.
40:05 During a recent trip to Amsterdam, I visited the Van Gogh museum which is located extremely close to the museum where many of these paintings (if not all) are housed. There is a painting on display there known as Almond Blossom. This was a painting created as a gift for the birth of his nephew and was created in the middle of one of the darker periods in Van Gogh's life, when his mental health was in extreme decline. You can see such extreme joy in this painting, joy from a man going through what, to most people, would be a living hell, over this one bright spot in his life at the birth of his nephew. The fact that a painting like Almond Blossom wasn't saved by Tilda is a telling thing to me, as I feel like someone like Elizebet would have saved a painting with this background and meaning if she were to choose one. Tilda saved are representing how she saw herself and her love for Elizebet, but not art that could represent Elizebet as she very obviously was. Some who, even when going through hell, could see the slivers of light breaking through the storm clouds.
Thats a really interesting way of seeing the connections between the character and the art, this comment is underrated
That, and Almond Blossom would also represent the little beauties that make life worth living. A birth is a wonderful thing, but also a small one - like an almond blossom. Tilda and the other Far Zeniths never appreciated the little beauties in life. When they were mortal, they probably never noticed blossoming trees, or other little signs of life. They only saw things they wanted to own: Money, time, and (in Tilda’s case) Elizebet.
Tilda sees value in materialism and anything that can boast her ego of moments. meaning if it doesnt hold a materialistic value. than theres no value in it. i doubt that Tilda ever loved Elizabet. in fact i think she only loved her imaginary idea of her and not the person.
@@dendrien Never loved, more like coveted. This is kind of seen even in her interactions with Aloy and Beta.
@@dsterbdspyder6067 love isnt one dimentional nor objective. it is an individual perception of your own subjection of it.
Not all the Zenith's became weak after gaining immortality, as least from what we read and hear. Stanley Chen based on what learn from both his recordings and Tilda maintained his empathy. He left the water system on standby for others to revive Vegas hoping there was a future for Earth. Unlike the other Zenith's he wasn't isolated in his own VR world but instead invited others openly to join in his recreation of Vegas. I wish they kept him alive or had some Zenith's with his mentality in the game, adding depth and creating clashing ideals between the members. In a way, he helped Aloy by providing a new vibrant settlement for those who found Vegas.
It would be interesting if there were a part of Chen in Nemesis.
there was not also a chen that was an alpha?
The House always wins, baby.
Honestly, I love these guys specifically BECAUSE they're pathetic. For all their immortality, all the years they've lived, all the hyper-advanced tech they have - they don't have any actual SKILL. They're the polar opposite to the folks down on earth - where the Tribals rely on skill and ingenuity and creativity to overcome beasts regularly multiple times their size AND power, the FZ's rely almost exclusively on their tech.
The moment they don't have their advanced gear, they topple like a tower made of wet paper. Take away the tribals gear, and they'll just slap together something else to fight you with. It's a wonderful little parallel~
earth is finished probably not but Tilda is🤣🤣🤣
Kind of sets up Nemesis with breaking out of containment as a mix of both, using valuable information to build the necessary implements to kill them and send the signal to Hades, and unlike the Faro Plague, has an emotion to drive it to bring extinction to the Earth
@@nameynamd9212 it will be an interesting enemy hopefully not so pathetic as the organics zeniths but I am not holding my breath over that
@@SaraMorgan-ym6ue It'd be driven hatred, mostly blinding, so there is more emotion immediately there. Also with the name given, clearly some ideas on revenge will be relevant to the actions done
Last piece of information that I could think of is the collective being described by anectode, so while likely still filled with hatred, its own struggle for survival will probably make it quite different than the Far Zenith(starting as a digital being, they have no presence, no physical form, making existence flimsy and extinguishable with a whim or push of a button)
Eric is laughably easy to kill. Part of it is that Horizons combat system is built around fighting machines, so human enemies end up boring and simplistic in comparison, but I also think it's intentional.
Without his shield you can kill him with the simple "arrow to the head" strategy that works on any old human, and simply breaking line-of-sight makes him completely impotent. He's in no great hurry to keep the pressure on the player. With a good sharp-shot bow the fight is over in less than a minute, with most of the time going to pulling the string until it does overdraw damage, then using slowmo to place your aim over his head.
Compare that to the other human boss fight in the game, Regalla, who will actually aim for Aloy's head and take big chunks out of your health bar unless you put some actual thought into the fight. Eric really does not put up a fight worth mentioning.
I guess it only make sense that Eric only fights (or kills) to fulfill his twisted fantasy, and he himself might not have any real world combat experience outside of VR so in reality, he won't survives long in a real combat without his fancy shield and advanced weapons. While Regalla is an actual warrior that seeks glory through combat, she was forged with actual war and conflicts and actually become a fearless warriors. Also, perhaps Regalla seen Aloy as worthy opponent and will fight through all her might, while Eric only sees Aloy (or anyone outsides of Zenith) as a lowly pest, thus he think far and mighty to think that Aloy won't kill him, resulting him still toying with Aloy despite losing his shield and makes him more vulnerable to conventional weapons.
Regalla would have pushed Eric's shit in. She was one of only two challenging encounters against humans (the other being The Enduring)
I managed to kill him with 2 headshots and 2 ranged master buffed explosive spike techniques
Regalla gave me the most trouble. I died 3 times on her which is more than the rest of the game combined. Hardest difficulty is easy. That being said I went into forbidden west with 400 hours clocked in on zero dawn so I knew what is going on.
Honestly Erik was a mini-boss which I see being intentional. Regalla was a hardened warrior bent on revenge and her fight was awesome
I don't blame Elisabet for breaking up with Tilda. Despite her own character flaws, she was smart enough to realize just how toxically codependent their relationship was becoming, so she broke it off before she let herself get too attached. Honestly, I think meeting Tilda also helped Aloy realize how she had been putting her biological mother on such a high pedestal, too.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one that picked up on this
They were lesbian?
@@SonicZGamer It's pretty obvious if you pay attention to the context. Heck, Tilda even confirms it in an optional conversation with Aloy at the Base. Forbidden West is a lot more open with its LGBT themes than Zero Dawn ever was and I love it. Normalize queerness, everyone!
@@maxleroux Forbidden West even has a Pride Facepaint. Which is weird, but I don't mind. LGBTQ+ is fine by me and I love that they don't shove it in the player's face or glorify it too much, but depict a normal relationship with it's problems and in the end it's failing. Which can happen to any relationship.
@@chico1786 At some point I had selected this face paint and didn't realise it because most the outfits I like have helmets that cover it.
Though I kinda like it and my game+ play through will be only with that from now on. ❤
Tilda was revealed in I think like 1 frame of the trailer, at the end. Just enough to go "Who???"
But yeah. The Far Zeniths really feel like some depictions of vampires I've seen. Detached aristocracy who's lost connection with their humanity, and are just the purest form of the leeches they are.
That's an insult to vampires and leeches.
With the shield effects, I thought she was a hologram at first and maybe even an avatar of Vast Silver (which I really hope features in the third game)
@@slateoffate9812 Isn't there a sub-race of vampires and leaches that is even more detested from that group? Remembering some DnD logic.
@@XSilver_WaterX Still don't hold a candle to rich assholes.
@@XSilver_WaterXI can think of a group for Vampire the Masquerade, the deformed ones who hide in the sewers... but the thing is they give sanctuary to other unwanted, warped and scarred individuals, and act as a means of passage for persons, materials and information.
Far Zenith wouldn't do any of that, even if it benifeted them.
Rich people fleeing to other planet instead of helping others. Most realistic thing ever to be put on a videogame
That's what I like about Horizon. A lot would happen in reality, if given the chance.
This realism in Horizon's lore is what really makes me feel some slight horror. Not some zombies, aliens or any other made up supervillains, just human mistakes, unwillingnes to see own flaws, and deception for the sake of someone's "greater benefit" may lead this world to an end.
As if poor people wouldn’t do the same. Pathetic
@@TheLasombra077 bitch please, poor people, without resources, are always more generous and helpful to others than the super rich that actually have the resources to help others
@@TheLasombra077 Uh, you do know that this is about money, right?
A poor person can't afford to help others get to a different plante, or stop the Faro plague. The rich people however have the money and power to help, but choose not to.
Just having come off a Vampire the Masquerade video, I can't help but see the parallels between the Far Zenith humans and Camarilla elders. Rich, immortal beings with nearly unlimited power who just sit on it and obsess with getting more and lack the practical skills to survive independently. You can even directly break down the big bad trio of Gerard, Tilda, and Erik into representatives of the Ventrue, Toreador, and Brujah mindsets. Own everything and everyone, preserve the shell of artistic beauty over reality, and beat up people to display status rather than for a practical goal.
How did you miss the point of world of darkness in general
@@spiritofpostpunk7207 The point of the World of Darkness is there is no point. It is an exercise in nihilism. Every tradition, sect, cult, concordance, faction, or cabal simply exists to fill in the emptiness of a purely material existence. The endless conflicts are the games of jaded immortals trying to stave of boredom. The only groups that get it are the ones who bow out of the conflicts of the past and find their own way. Much like the post-humans of this game.
@@ravendelacour1917 got it at the end path of enlightenment for vampire. All mages must have there own paradigm. Changeling must make the world less full of banality and werewolves are just warriors for a god.
@@spiritofpostpunk7207 That is the positive aspect of nihilism. Nothing is true, so create your own meaning.
@@ravendelacour1917
I can get by that. So let's all join BIG D's crusade
"They gave birth to a child, locked it in a closet by itself then told it to do homework all day long." So their basically the Dursleys but even worse.
just be glad they weren't your parents or you childhood would have sucked that much
That'd be isolated child newspost but 2-3X
The Dursleys abuse of Harry wasn't treated seriously like it should have been. Instead Rowling portrayed them making him sleep in a cupboard, starving him, putting bars on his bedroom window and encouraging Dudley to bully him as funny and wacky.
@@Xehanort10 Ok, that's false. If you actually cared to read the damn books, you wouldn't be saying that. No, what's portrayed as funny in the books is what happens to the Dursleys every time witches and wizards barge in, or when magic is used around them in general. They get hit with enough karma throughout the books that by the final one, they no longer abuse him in any way, directly or indirectly. They all simply agree to leave each other be, which by that point is a simple unspoken agreement up until the Dursleys leave for good.
@@kingfairytale4306big yes.
Far Zenith is pretty much what I expect a bunch of immortal techbros to behave like.
I wish that was true, these techbros are amazingly effective. Look at the world rn😂
@@bulkinggod3872well they didn't create what they use.
@@ethanstyant9704 most of them do tho. Zuck did, as did jobs, as did Steve. That's why they are called techbros, think about it for a second please before you just speak.
@bulkinggod3872 Steve Jobs FAMOUSLY did NOT create the tech he pushed! Steve Wosniac was the tech mind behind it all. Even then, the tech was developed in the public sector. Touch screens were developed by NASA and the airforce. WiFi was developed by Hawaii University. The list goes on. Companies just purchase the tech after the fact and amalgamate it.
@@badrhetoric5637and Elon bought his way into Tesla and kicked out the dudes who started it
Immortality didn't make them weak. Greed did. Greed got them all the power, but left them without any of the inspiration or sense of community to do anything with it. She even talked about the Las Vegas guy who opened his doors to others, one of the good ones. Someone like that would thrive with like-minded others while immortal.
In the end they were a bunch of rich assholes who lucked into outliving the civilization they helped destroy. The thing is, without that civilization, they have nothing.
What makes you say that? Why is a sense of community necessary for inspiration, and why that guy being nice mean that either?
@@poshboy4749 Because humans are social animals that derive a lot of meaning from belonging, reciprocal altruism, and generally working together. It's hard wired into us from a biological perspective, even ignoring the more esoteric and artsy reasons.
Also man you sound hollow af ngl
I believe their long-term downfall was their egomania. All they did was to save themselves, so after fleeing Earth they ended up with exactly that: only themselves and nothing else. They weren't even able to form meaningful connections with each other. Their egomania fulfilled over hundreds of years only bred stagnation, while Nemesis is the result of that egomania being denied over a similar time span.
Complacency makes anyone weak
The Hades program from Horizon Zero Dawn should be next on the list. It’s what I like to think as nuanced evil: it isn’t created evil, but rather it is just a product of its programming and it’s only a subcomponent of an overall program.
The way I like to view Hades from the game is I compare Hades to the clone of homelander from the boys in comics. Spoilers but in the comics of the boys bought had created. A clone of homelander just in the inevitable event that he turns on Humanity. the Clone is raised and cared for a lot differently.
But it knows its purpose its purpose is to destroy homelander but in the background. It waits like a sleeping giant waiting to do what it was programmed to do but on and on and on homelander stays in line. He doesn't turn on Humanity he's actually trying to be a decent hero in the clone of homelander can't take it anymore he wants to do something he wants to fulfill his role that he was created for but he just can't do it because homelander is being a good guy. Well as good as he can be staying in lying so the Clone ruins his reputation. And drives homelander mad just so he can finally. Do the things he wanted to do the thing he was made for to defeat homelander and be the hero.
Compare that to Hades the program that was specifically created to destroy humanity and restart the whole process all over again. If he found Humanity lacking but Humanity was not lacking so Hades had to be put in dormancy but centuries went by he has been stewing stewing trying to find some reason to get rid of humanity some way some reason I finally found a way out and now he ultimately wants to destroy Humanity he has judged them lacking because of his bad programming.
Just imagine for example you were born into a wealthy family and you were born to be a musician you went through years and years and years of training skill to perfect to be perfect teachers. Intellectuals skilled artists in piano players watching thousands of videos of how piano players have built their skill and went through their pride. To perfect their skills their trade so you can be better But ultimately some catastrophe happens and now you are unable to do the thing you were. Given a purpose for unable to do it unable to fulfill your goal wouldn't that drive you crazy wouldn't you feel like you've wasted your life
Slight correction, hades was supposed to start over if the biosphere was nonviable. It was permantly shutdown once humanity was reintroduced as there were no more zygotes in storage.
In the game it was revealed that Hades becoming "evil" due to outside (outer space) influence, being the Extinction Signal. And the ES themselves is revealed to be the Far Zenith (Nemesis) all along. Hades itself created with low level AI to operate (well, it's low level when compared to GAIA), but thanks to ES it gain sentience and able to take over GAIA in the process. So I agree that Hades itself that is inherently evil, but it can be seen as an amalgamation of all deranged minds that clumped together forming an entity that is Nemesis, that only purpose (so far) is to avenge it's creator.
Far Zeniths embody the quote "Complacency is death".
They were so cocksure of their power that they refused to even conceive the possibility of loss.
34:17 Also, she saved the art for its own sake. Its clear in the game that there was no plan to ever return to earth, and the fact that the vault is still intact suggests that it wasn't as though it was ever planned to be able to be opened by future generations, should Zero Dawn succeed. Art is functionally meaningless without beings capable of interacting with it, and Tilda's inability to recognize that this whole display is a just as much of a monument to her own perceived greatness as Thebes was, really says alot.
It really shows that Stanley Chen was the odd one out when it came to the Zeniths. Like Tilda, he saved and preserved art, a different form of art but still art. Yet unlike Tilda, he wanted people to see and experience what he saved. Even putting the system he built to maintain it on standby, hoping that someone would stumble along and reactivate it on the off chance that Zero Dawn worked. Meanwhile Tilda locked the art she saved in a vault, that only her gene code could open.
When Tilda calls Stanley one of the only "good ones", it is clear that she meant the ONLY 'good one'.
I was here when the video was called “A Deconstruction of Villain”
Is it not still?
@@mfnminerdz a proof of concept if you will
oh my god
Damn I was JUST about to comment the same thing lmao
@@fatbrettyou got caught Brett handed
Considering the amount of psychopaths among the money elite... it's IMHO pretty realistic to have the Far Zenith people behave like they do. Their problem is that their learned and honed manipulations methods don't work anymore. And their psychopathy also explains their underreaction during potentially lethal encounters as their ability to feel fear or stress is just as numbed as their ability to love or have genuine compassion.
37:44 Also, having seen the Night Watch IRL, that painting is HUGE. Like the scale shown in game might be actually smaller than what it is in real life. My point with bringing up size comes down to this, why save one giant painting when you could have saved a greater number of smaller paintings from a wide range of famous artists from your homeland? I've been to the museum the Night Watch is housed in, and let me tell you, there are hundreds of beautify dutch paintings stored in that museum that are small enough to store in a Pringles can. My personal read on this is the idea that Tilda is the kind of person who would go to the Louvre and only focus on the Mona Lisa, and not take the time to appreciate the other, lesser known masterpieces the room is covered in.
Would you rather have: 100,000 small opals worth a dollar, a piece. Or a colossal opal, worth 100,000 dollars?
@@justinpatterson5291 Each of those 100,000 opals would've had its own unique flicker and fire. The one 100k opal, is just one opal, you lost all the *variety* by focusing on just the price.
@@Stothehighest
And if you need quick cash it’s easier to sell a couple small gems than one huge one.
@@kyriss12 For that matter, you can sell or dump part of it. With the colossal, you either keep or lose it, there's no inbetween.
A side note, calling tilda the best of zenith is insulting when we have big man that remade vegas on the Odyssey. Yeah he died on sirius but he should still count
Assuming he actually got on of course. He could have ended up the same way as Delgardo, we only have Tilda's word that he made it as far as Sirius.
@ChocolatierRob Stanley did get on but he died by nemesis
@@ChocolatierRobwho the fuck is Delgardo?
I was talking with my folks about this and honestly, if they'd kept Osvald Dalgard, they could have used him as their diplomat when dealing with Aloy and the other humans on Earth. Osvald was a PR expert and polished spokesman and had what it took to negotiate with people. The rest of the Zeniths were basically used to getting their way all the time and their people skills had basically atrophied to nearly nonexistent levels. They could not have botched their plans any worse than they did.
I am not sure if you brought it up and I missed it, but Tilda was a survivor of a massive flood in Amsterdam that killed thousands, including her parents. instead of being cared for by someone else, she was shipped off to boarding school where she was treated as an outcast. her life has been one of both massive privilege and incredible loss, and it's why I think she's so interesting. like someone with that history was always going to have a tough time of it, but she was so far removed from anything resembling normalcy, of course she ended up the way she did. it's just a tragedy because as you said, unlike a lot of other Zeniths, she was actually accomplished and smart.
she is also way more human than any other Zenith we meet (some of the ones we don't directly meet seem like actually good people, like the Vegas guy or the woman who worked in life extension tech - I actually think this kinda weakens the story because like I just can't believe decent people would exist on their colony lol). you talk about how she only connects to art in a selfish way, by looking at it and thinking how she can connect to it, not what art historians say. but to me, that's a very HUMAN way of thinking! building up a relationship that ended weirdly and unsatisfactorily into being something other than what it was, into some great lost love, is also very HUMAN. it's twisted by a thousand years of being alone with sociopaths, but yeah. I think that's what stands out about Tilda as well.
I also hope we learn more about Peter Tshivhumbe in the third game. he was the founder of Far Zenith. he was dead before they left for space, but he was obsessed with digital immortality and apparently more on the side of things where he genuinely wanted to make the world a better place. I feel like he is the key to understanding Nemesis and I've got a theory of my own... but we'll have to see!
OHHHH TED FARO GET HIS ASSSSSSS
You were so close to this observation but the way Tilda speaks about Aloy and Elisabet, the way she seeks to collect them like they were one of her paintings is more than just artistic appreciation it's tied to the way she speaks about herself in a diminished way and the way she speaks of Elisabet and Aloy so highly. She covets Aloy like an object because she thinks by "owning" her she will gain her will, her drive or whatever she sees in Aloy that she feels she lacks. Whether she knows it or not she is seeking to subsume Aloy into herself by collecting her or more accurately collecting the idealized version of her she has dreamt up in her mind.
"co-dependence and malignance" doesn't even begin to describe her. But people like her are unfortunately not uncommon. Those like Tilda take the idea of finding *YOUR* other half to an unhealthy extreme.
Good observation
Far Zenith are rats. For all their technology the instant they meet a threat the only thing they can do is run. Without their shields they drop like rocks, they've been "gods" for so long they've forgotten fear. Meanwhile the residents of Earth have learned to survive and fight enemies that are technologically superior without necessarily understanding how that technology works. It's essentially the same problem as the first game, since Aloy and her companions have clearly been improving their technological capability compared to the "The Focus is magic" from the first game, and in the first game the opponents...were evil, but not coddled like Zenith.
I love how the painting of Endymion and Selene is used. Cause in their myth, the clossest greek interpretation of love to Selene's feelings for Endymion is Mania, obsessive, possesive, dehumizing 'love', she watches him sleep, falls in love with him, asks Zeus to makes him sleep forever, and has multiple children with him while he's in eternal slumber, she loves the idea of him, not him. And that seems to fit so perfectly the relationship of Tilda with Elizabeth, how Tilda may think she is so perceptive to detail, but can't clock how unreal her love is, or how unreal the love in the painting, in the myth is, she misunderstood this painting as much as she misundertood Jeremiah's painting.
As the Far Zenith Deaths as stupid and pathetic as can be. It also made sense why they had to die like that.
In their minds, they are invincible as they seemed a good Villian death is from the unexpected.
As powerful they thought they were a lowlife can harm them.
Now that is poetic.
A criticism I’ve heard for Far Zeniths is that they were underdeveloped. That because of how suddenly they were introduced, and how quickly they were taken out, that it cut their potential too short and left things half-baked. This was a criticism I agreed with in the beginning, but taking in your video I can start to see that Far Zenith is an example of a symbolic failed narrative.
Their lack of complexity, brought on by their selfishness and pampered lives makes them both physically and narratively underdeveloped. It emphasizes their own wasted potential, something that Tilda comments on. I still would have loved to see and interact with a more vibrant Far Zenith, but I can appreciate the narrative logic.
1:01:23 Also I'd say its a fundamental lack of developed empathy. They simply do not care about people without a direct connection or benefit to them. They care about THEIR future, no one else's. Same with Ted Faro, who created a machine that was the perfect product, but a TERRIBLE idea to help anyone other than himself. I think the whole Horizon series is about Empathy and how important it is to have it.
I view Ted as someone who fits the trope of "the road to hell is pathed with good intentions". It is possible that he did actually want to do good in the world through his company. I mean it worked on green technologies and robotics even before Sobeck joined. However pride got the best of him once he was named "the man who saved the world". And with the Hot Zone Crisis changing how warfare is waged, he allowed his pride to create the ultimate weapon. Believing that any 'glitches' would never happen as it was his idea.
45:01 I've found this aspect of the Zeniths interesting aswell. I remember when Tilda joins you at your base before you attack the rest of the Zeniths, if you talk to Zo she'll say something like "I'd say Tilda smelled like death but that would suggest she smelt of anything at all, the only thing I can compare it to is the smell of metal."
Far Zenith are interesting in just how _uninteresting_ they really are. Because they never had to struggle they forgot how to _live_ and only really exist within their own minds. It's why they wanted digital transcendence. Even though they were functionally immortal they didn't believe they needed bodies anymore because they never had to do anything that bodies require. They wanted to live in their own consciousness as much as they could and it doomed them. It's why they died so pathetic. They didn't have the instinct necessary to preserve their lives. They forgot what danger was. It's also why they fled from Nemesis. If they had put their minds to it they might have even been able to contain or destroy Nemesis, but doing something like that requires drive, something Far Zenith lacked.
Yea. Tilda herself even said they stagnated, had eternity, and they could've achieved more. And that it took them almost being wiped out to wake them out of their stupor
Silicone valley. Wait did i offend anyone saying that?
"Far Zenith is fatally short-sighted."
Good thing to note: they mention that most, maybe even imply that all, IIRC, of Far Zenith's colonists were narcissists, and a couple common traits among those with Narcissistic Personality Disorder is impulsiveness and difficulty in long term planning.
I literally just finished this game.
This is perfect timing.
Damn, I didn't really think about that.
Also, Tilda died in a really pathetic way too. She could've collaborated with Aloy and crew against the threat of Nemesis. But no, she put Aloy on a pedestal like she did Elisabet, and wants to kidnap her using a massive robot. And she still dies. Honestly, its kind of sad.
Great video though. Hope that you analyze Aloy (walking savior complex) and/or Sylens (absolute sociopath on the level of Zeniths) after you analyze Ted.
It’s easy for Aloy to have a walking saviour complex when she was literally created to save the world by rebuilding Gaia and she is the only one who can do it due to her genetic code.
At least until Beta comes along.
And I find Sylens very nuanced. When Aloy disrupts his plans for the Tenakth assault he isnt angry, he doesn’t rant or rave he accepts his plan has failed but believes Aloy when she says she has an alternative plan. He doesn’t allow pride to distract him from his goals.
@@maxpower3990 Whilst Sylens is nuanced, it is evident that he doesn't really care about the faceless others that his plans would affect. He would have thrown the entire Tenakth tribe into the Zenith meat grinder just for him to have access to APOLLO.
I do agree with you about Aloy though. However, that behavior is incredibly self-destructive, considering the obstacles that she faces in the main storyline of HFW.
@@spaceshipearth481 A big part of the game is Aloy confronting her issues. Personally I'm not sure it went deep enough outside of her pushing people away but they could be saving a deeper look at her psyche for the next game.
It's obvious to see how Aloy ended up the way she did, (the Nora really are a messed up society) but it'd be cool to see Aloy herself really confront her upbringing, not just how messed up it was but how it effects her behavior as an adult.
I really feel like they should've included Avad more in FW, Aloy's relationship with him specifically would've been the perfect way to confront her issues.
Does she really have no feelings for Avad or is that just her fear of connecting to and relying on others talking, does she even know?
After all Avad confronted his issues around Ersa for her, so it'd would've been good for Aloy to confront her issues and really see if being Queen of Meridian could be in her future.
I mean Seyka is cool and all, though it does fall into the trope of every strong badass woman having to be a lesbian (cough* The 100 *cough). i just feel like expanding on Aloy and Avads relationship was a real missed opportunity that would've fit well with the themes of the game.
@@MsMarco6
I felt like Aloy didn't really have feelings for Avad. Avad seemed like he was projecting his grief for Ersa on someone very similar to her. But that's just my interpretation.
My only problem with the whole Seyka romance thing was that it was in a DLC. Aloy actually opening up to someone in that way is a very major step in her character development that should have been saved for the 3rd game. If Guerilla continues down this Seyka romance path, I hope that she's in the 3rd game in some capacity, so that we can see Aloy actually learn how to overcome her antisocial tendencies by being in such a relationship
@@spaceshipearth481 My point with Avad wasn't that Aloy definitely liked him, it's that she didn't even stop to consider whether or not she did.
Her refusal had nothing todo with him, he could've been the most attractive, kind, funny etc person in the world and she still would've acted the same way.
It was all about her fear of connection and her inability to consider any other life than running around solo saving everyone else until she gets herself killed. And did that change so much in Forbidden West. I mean she's no longer running solo, but is still to hell bent on her never-ending suicidal mission to consider a life outside of that.
I mean really think about it, despite everything she's been through was the Aloy in the Burning Shores really so different from the Aloy in Meridian.
In both thought and action she still feels very much the same, she has a few more friends but it's not like she didn't have any b4.
The Aloy in Meridian would've rejected Seyka without even blinking, I didn't feel like enough had changed for that to be different.
I guess i just feel like one more conversation with Avad genuinely considering his offer from her perspective (and yeah she would've said no 90%) would've left her character in a better place for the DLC.
This video made Far Zenith so much more interesting, thank you! Cannot wait for you to tackle Ted Farro, it's going to be a blast!
People always claim we want immortality.
We truly desire to do whatever we can while alive.
Zenith keep looking for higher immortality, thinking it will make them happy.
people chase what we cant possess. it is a huam flaw that either moves us forward or our downfall. this is why we fear death. in the end we have no controll over it nor can predict when it'll accour or in what way. thats were the strife for immortality stems from. without death than theres no fear.
At first I was confused as to why they named Nemesis, well Nemesis. As the only exposure to the word was in relation to heroes and villains. Then I found out about the Greek Goddess and it fits so well. The Zeniths wanted to be Gods, more than Gods. Someone had to remind them that they are still mortal. And clearly it did not work, as someone like Londra, who was involved in the project that led to Nemesis being created, continued to view himself and even sold himself as a God to the Quen.
nemesis means retaliation and vengance. thats what the godess represent. this is why shes depicted blind, with a either a sword or a whip on her right hand and weights on the left hand. shes connected with the court of law who measures the crime that has bin commited.@@jordanread5829
26:29 This cutscene absolutely broke me in my playthrough
It only didn't work on me because I was so angry Tilda didn't interfere before Varl was killed. I didn't trust her a single bit because of that
Video Idea: The Sith: Deconstruction of Villiany
Love that idea 💡
That might be too large of an umbrella, considering
“There are as many Sith Philosophies as there are Sith.”
I think you’d need at least 10x 5 hr videos to go over all the different sith from the movies shows and books
@IronForce-ff2qx that may be true, but they all still boil down to the same principle that's engraved in their code. They just want power for power's sake. They have no grand design for building an empire that will last, is efficient, or is even particularly secure. Nothing matters beyond their own glory. Their individual philosophies of the Force, and their plans to gain power all vary, but the goal and motivation is pretty universal.
We only have Tilda's description of Nemesis. A person that is willing to do anything to get what she wants. How can anything she said about Nemesis be trusted?
What a twist it would be if Nemesis might have actually grown a conscience from all that sociopath data. It might have even run the scenarios and found that corporation was, and not selfishness, the best way to survive. It might be hunting Far Zenith because they are the ones just consuming, not building, and Nemesis is trying to stop their path of destruction.
Immortality, nepotism, capital and past grandeurs of political socio-economic might. The ultra space 1% are truly pathetic and satisfying to go up against.
Thanks a million for the video, not a lot of Horizon love or discussion out there for one of my favorite series
Immortality did not make them weak because to be made weak you first off have to be strong they never were strong so they never became strong they were always weak plain and simple🤣🤣🤣
@@SaraMorgan-ym6ue So wealth and capitalist-political power isn’t a kind of strength? But we both agree that isn’t true strength, right? Horizon is about finding inner-strength within oneself and through a tribe(collective/friendship). The economic and influential might of Far Zenith is below the bar in surviving in this world now, and lingering for 1000 years in VR is just a long, pathetic rain check in them realizing this.
@AverageAspie Silicone valley. Hope i didnt ruffle up feathers mentioning that. But its accurate
Theres so many people commenting on here calling the game crap because they simply fail to understand the story thats being told. Far zenith are portrayed as this extremely advanced civilisation that had to flee the planet they settled on due to another fatal mistake they made with the creation of nemesis. They came to earth to temporarily escape it so they could steal GAIA and force it to build a new world in their image for their benefits.
Despite the technology they had, they accomplished absolutely nothing apart from cheating death and becoming in their own image invincible. They had all this knowledge of humanity that was completely lost after the literal end of the world, yet they instead chose to sit around on their planet for 1000s of years in virtual reality wasting time for their own pleasure because to them it was infinite.
Far zenith themselves thought they were unstoppable and nothing could oppose them because of this tech they had, but the moment they lost their shelds, they died in such a pathetic ways. Their immortality made them weak and ultimately all they ended up being was a bunch of losers from the old world with colourful spacesuits that could cheat death. They literally created and abandoned a pet project (nemesis) that ultimately destroyed them. Their own incompetence destroyed them!
This is the story they were going for, its the whole point of this faction. They are supposed to be bad villans since thats the path they built for themselves. Stop hating on a games story when your too dumb to understand it.
Verbena forgot the first rule of regenerative shields. the minute they drop, you take cover till they're back.
I love these "Deconstruction of villains" videos you do Brett.
If there were any villains I'd love to see you tackle in the future, it would have to the Prophet of Truth, from Halo, and Queen Myrrah, from Gears of War. I feel there's a lot that could be said about their motivations and the horrific methods they go through to achieve them.
Looking forward to the video on Ted Faro. Keep up the amazing work.
I love Tilda deeply. I wish the game gave us more conversations with Til and hell even other Zeniths. I hope she will be in next game. She has to in Nemesis but i mean physically. My dutch lesbian stole my heart help😘🥹🤣🤣
One more thing the whole part with Tilda in the galery is so much more then what you said. You were right but it was not the whole thing..
I thought the selection of Selene and Endymion was such a good choice. Endymion in the myth is very much an object of Selene's infatuation: eternally lovely and sleeping, hers to gaze upon and act upon, but not a partner to her or an actor in his own right.
Edit: Also, I cannot wait for the roasting of Ted Faro. Get him!
Looking forward to the Faro video. God, Ted must be the villain I hate most in all the video games I have personally played. Just the idea that he destroyed Apollo gives me almost physical pain.
Agreed. His selfish sort sightedness was appalling. His fate was well deserved… but dam him for depriving the future of humanity from their past.
@@fumarc4501 His destruction of Apollo might not be complete. Depends if the Far Zeniths have a copy that can be uploaded to GAIA.
@@Rellana1 Didn't the Far Zeniths have a copy of Apollo, Eleuthia, and Artemis? Beta not only mentioned how they had them once she appears at your base and at the end of the game, you can see them bringing back GAIA with every subordinate function except Hades and Hephaestus.
HORIZON HAS FINALLY MADE IT TO THIS CHANNEL LETS GOOO
I noticed one more thing - Tilda, when first time explaining the Nemesis, said that it immediately hacked Far Zenith systems, as it knew all the passwords. It wonders me, how often they had changed them and how they failed to develop some more advanced way of cybersecurity measures...
The problem is similar like in the Man of Steel. Would Zod cooperate, Kal-El would give him Codex and Zod could get his planet, like Mars, and still be super flying dude.
At the art gallery you can press Examine multiple times on the same art piece getting different dialogs.
It is easy to overlook and gives much more information
You know, given the shallow, petty, sadistic people it was spawned from? I think Nemesis' motivation could easily and believably be "well WE didn't get to kill them, you stole that from us, so now we'll have to settle for killing you instead."
Also I think at this point nemesis considers all humans regardless of origin to be Zeniths
@wintertrooper7918 I doubt it does. If nemesis is the zeniths mind together then they nemesis knows the zenithe abandoned all other humans and were never at fault to begin with. My guess is after a long battle in the third game nemesis would agree to work with GIA to rebuild the world
@@besratg9207 you forgot the part where it was locked away by itself for centuries of isolation
Your description of the Zeniths is the perfect image of today's elites; hopelessly pathetic while they consider us as cockroaches and only live for additional riches and pleasure without caring for the rest of humanity.
Looks at the Far Zeniths- rich ppl who contributed nothing/little to society, power of just having a lot of money, screwing over their own workers, having no longterm goals and unable to see beyond their immediate gratification
Looks at our current billionaires...
Damn the game really nailed them didnt they lmaooo
I agree I hope Nemisis in the end isnt a one note villian, but due to the human emotions it has we can connect to it like how Gaia was changed by knowing Elizabet
Eh some of them achieved a lot. Like one created an extremely good water filtration system, which helped supply everybody with drinkable water. Of course that's the exception there were a lot of ones that were just rich, like Gerard and Verbana or Erik, but there were a few people with contributions amonst them.
@senittoaoflightning4404 i hate to bring down the one semi "good" rich guy.... but if public programs were decently funded there would be no need for the random rich ppl to come save the day lol
@@beccaf.3294Well, they had a huge climate crisis. But yeah, even that could have been avoided far earlier.
Though they tried with VAST SILVER, it failed as the program went rouge.
Kinda funny how the leader of this utopian society is pretty much just someone with "Cash" an investor who is just filthy rich. But honestly in an apocalyptic world that does not use "Money". what in the H can he do?. He got no leader skills, he just wants an instant pay off. Honestly you summed it up perfectly. especialy with the first death scene we see of these Zenith. The whole modern aristocracy having been removed for so long from the normal struggles of the world, they just don't really get anything or can do anything for themselves
This games story is hella underrated and I’m so happy to see this video be made
On my 3rd playthrough, I finally realized there is a lot more dialog with the art pieces. Love being able to discover new things even after hundreds of hours of playtime.
If you run past them ignoring all of the prompts, Tilda remarks on how you must not be an art person.
@@maynardperalta3188 Nice, I didn't know that. Never completely ignored them. Love the detail.
Magnificent. This is going to be a good watch. I'm a huge Horizon series Stan.
Lol me to , im so happy that hes talking about it
The first game was my favorite game of all time but the writing just wasn't as strong in the sequel and I am not really interested in the new murder human/ai hybrid that is setup for the third game. I feel like the villains for forbidden west were not well written and if done better would have made a great recurring threat that could carry into the third game.
@@beaswork8520 For me they were just going for different things. The best thing about Zero dawn was the strong hook which was the mystery. With that revealed and with the set up after that , I really enjoyed the story. Plus I just think the characters themselves were just way better in HFW and I liked how much more they had to do. Beaides that , the actual game stuff was just better , side quests , tallnecks, cauldrons. So all of that together makes it hard for me to not rate HFW over HZD even though I did really like that mystery aspect of the first game.
@20:00 It looked to me like she didn't realize her shield had been taken down. The fact that she was as of yet unharmed would be good enough reason for her to assume that her shield was still working which makes her reaction make perfect sense.
Thats exactly what i was thinking
Great video, horizon is my favourite series and i'm so happy it gets high quality content like this. Keep it up! 🙏
"are we supposed to be scared?"
*Loses impervious shield*
"Oh shit I'm fucking spooked and running right the fuck now holy shit holy ahit holy shit run run run run!"
Literally the most pathetic people possible. As soon as their one sided way of winning is gone they pissed their pants so hard it made them fly faster.
I JUST finished Forbidden West, opened RUclips and this was the first recommended video.
I can't wait to watch this 😁
Oh yes, I've been eagerly anticipating Horizon stuff.
Horizon Forbidden West was the first and only game I went into completely blind, having loved the first game. Call me biased bc of that but the story of this game was something else man.
Thinking about it, Nemesis probably would find them eventually anyway.
It's a data repository of all of Far Zenith's collective information and psyches. Even if Far Zenith had succeeded either with or without Tilda's involvement. Once Nemesis got to earth and wiped it, it'd likely just take a bit to think over where they would've gone, then just zoomed on after them. It's another instance of Far Zenith being doomed to fail because they choose convenience over what will actually solve the problem.
One thing not mentioned but I think may be interesting considering the subject matter:
We have no idea how the human mind would cope with memories going back multiple centuries. The human mind is barely capable of containing a century worth of memories, it start to unravel before that point. So it seems likely that part of their complacency is a result of them quite literally forgetting several key skillsets and lessons as they lost parts of themselves over the centuries.
Nice Streets of Rage background at the end!
This is a very insightful and interesting look at the villains of FW and thank you for putting it together.
I enjoyed that you showed the data point describing the loss of the Odyssey from HZD. It is interesting that we had different reactions to it though. Between that data point and Faro's destruction of Apollo I began to believe that the Odyssey accident was actually a lie to protect the ship from the Faro plague or other retaliation.
Like you, I rather lament how Far Zenith was portrayed in FW from the very start. I didn't put it together until watching your videos, but it would seem that the goal was to make them villains as compelling as Ted Faro was. He might have been a bit unintentional, but he was so well written as a villain that he made me feel physical anger despite not one true appearance on screen. The members of Far Zenith, on the other hand, felt as shallow as the villains in a post 2010 Marvel movie.
Even with the writers from HZD (and Shadow of Mordor!) returning it is notable that the quality of writing between HZD and FW varies quite a bit, and recent events may have shed a bit more light on this. Despite outside influence there still is a lot of good, such as the way Tilda fails to understand art. I am glad you focused on that since it is a part of the game that feels like it has the quality of HZD.
It makes sence why Tilda's Dutch seeing as Gorilla Studio are also Dutch.
I see the writers of this series tend to portray all villains as pathetic losers, like Hellis and Ted Faro, perhaps to show that you don't need to be a super-villain with a Machiavellian plan to hurt, kill and bring about world destruction, at least indirectly. All it takes is stupidity, selfishness, greed, cowardice, and a bit of mental instability, and even the most common of men can become humanity's worst enemy. Faro's greed and cowardice led to extinction, Hellis gullibility and messianic complex almost did the same, and Far Zenith selfishness and superiority complex created Nemesis.
Beside that, I'm glad to see someone caught the fact that it was Tilda laying out the plan to steal Gaia. I've always been baffled at people portraying her relationship with Elisabet like some sort of tragic love, when it is clear she's always been manipulative and obsessive, even when she talks about Elisabet it's always by explaining how she basically manipulated her into a relationship, and I think Elisabet wasn't fooled for long, that's why she not only cut ties but knew full well that Tilda was involved in the attempted theft of Gaia.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the same.
When Tilda talks about her relationship with Liz she does so in a very superficial way and given her history, you know that she is not telling you the whole truth. How far can we believe her? Especially when Liz isn't around to give her side of the story.
I was afraid that the writers wanted to redeem Tilda, when she doesn't deserve it. Can you imagine how deep her betrayal went? Who knows how long their relationship lasts, but that's the least of it. She said that she loved her, but she did not hesitate to board Far Zenith's ship and leave Earth and Liz. She said that they tricked her by selling her a utopian idea of the project, that was a lie, she was basically a spy, do you really think I'm going to believe that she didn't know anything until she got on the ship? The above is bad enough, now let's add that she conspired to rob GAIA and also stole Liz's DNA (only she had the opportunity, the tools and the motive to do it). She allowed a clone of her ex (whom she claimed to love so much) to be created, she allowed her to be enslaved and still gets offended when she "isn't like Liz", she despises her for being a "bad copy". In conclusion, this woman is a horrible, obsessive, manipulative person and she never loved anyone but herself, to the point of atrociously betraying her former partner.
Excellent video.
Excellent comment.
Sorry for my bad English.
Me alegra no ser la única que piensa lo mismo.
Cuando Tilda habla de su relación con Liz lo hace de forma muy superficial y dado su historial, sabes que no te está diciendo toda la verdad. ¿Hasta dónde podemos creerle? Especialmente cuando Liz no está para dar su versión de los hechos.
Temía que los escritores quisieran redimir a Tilda, cuando ella es insalvable. ¿Pueden imaginar lo profunda que fue su traición? Quién sabe cúanto tiempo duró su relación, pero eso es lo de menos. Dijo que la amaba, pero no dudó en abordar la nave de Far Zenith y dejar la Tierra y a Liz. Dijo que la engañaron vendiéndole una idea utópica del proyecto, eso fue una mentira, ella era básicamente una espía, ¿enserio piensa que me voy a creer que no sabía nada hasta que se subió a la nave? Si lo anterior ya es bastante grave ahora añadamos que conspiró para robar a GAIA y también robó el ADN de Liz (sólo ella tenía la oportunidad, los medios y el motivo para hacerlo). Permitió que se creara un clon de su ex (a la que tanto decía amar), permitió que fuera esclavizada y todavía se ofende cuando "no es como Liz", la desprecia por ser una "copia inferior". En conclusión esta mujer es una persona horrible, obsesiva, manipuladora y nunca amó a nadie más que a sí misma, al punto de traicionar atrozmente a la que fuera su pareja.
Excelente video.
Excelente comentario.
I had two theories after my playthrough of Zero Dawn;
1) Vast Silver sent the signal to wake hades.
2) the zeniths didn't die and sent the signal to give themselves a "new" home.
I was right.
My prediction for game three?
Vast silver is used in pair with the weapons system mentioned by Londra to defeat Nemesis.
Gerard Bieri likely only became their leader after actual FZ leadership got killed by Nemesis, and no one bothered to question his ascension. Had they survived, Song Jiao and the Zenith members responsible for creating Nemesis might've made a more credible threat. Somewhat.
I'd actually love a video diving into Hephaestus. NGL, I feel like its a much more complicated antagonist than most people realize on a first playthrough. In alot of ways, its not really a true villain as much as it is a being with goals that fail to line up with those of the point of view characters. If it wanted to wipe out all life or even just all humans, it could easily recreate the Fero drones. I'm almost wondering if the way they will ultimately beat Hephaestus might involve the idea of agreeing to not kill its creations on mass anymore.
May a say that Eloy is also a chosen one, all the secret doors open to her, not always because of her feats, but of her DNA
Between this content and Analyzing Evil, we're well fed!
something i love about the Zeniths being so far out of touch that they never even considered the idea of simply deleting Nemesis, because for them solving a problem is too much effort when they can just abandon it & continue to live in their hedonistic fantasy.
also the fact that Alloy isn't really as influential as Tilda thinks, yeah she made things better & saved the world from HADES doing it's job, but the world still remained more or less unchanged
I love the breakfast scene where Aloy and Tilda meet. It's such a great contrast. Aloy is tanned, a little ruddy cheeked since she has been exerting herself, but she looks alive. Tilda on the other hand looks like an alabaster statue. There's nothing human left. Showing one next to a young healthy human shows how inhuman they have become.
Also Carrie-Anne Moss's voice acting. It's not explicit but you know Tilda is lying in this scene and Moss absolutely nails the subtle inflections that give away that she's not being honest.
I really love the sci-fi aspects of these games clashing with the tribalistic settlements.
All I’m saying if I see one with a moustache then I’m calling them robo Viltrumite’s.
I absolutely adore the fact that in the Horizon series, unchecked capitalism and the 1% are the causes for the apocalypse. Greed ends humanity. Can't imagine THAT actually happening...
Someone on a kotaku thread once said there's a datalog that pinpoints the moment of key stupidity that brings it all crashing down, something about Faro selling Horuses to both sides of a conflict without thinking about what would happen when that adaptive AI started adapting off itself without safeguards. (I mean, this AND the 'what if robots could use biomass to make more robots! Genius!')
@@twigcollins8785 That's not quite the moment. The true moment is when he orders his programmer not to leave in a failsafe backdoor of any kind in his robots because he wants them to be the bestest badass battle machines. And then he is completely shocked when he can't retroactively order a backdoor to exist once the plague starts. He was the typical rich guy who thought consequences only exist when he wills it.
People like these existed long before capitalism.
@@FirstnameLastname-bp2pg Sure but capitalism is what gives a larger number of such people political power.
@@FirstnameLastname-bp2pgcongratulations you’ve said absolutely nothing
We've got billionaires now that dream of escaping to space while they ruin Earth
That is what makes them good - some villains need to be total hedonistic self-obsessed, self-circlejerking loosers to have variety of villain types in all of the media, basically to show that not all villains are super powerful like Evil Superman or super smart like Joker.
This has become my fav video game series and can't wait for the third. Aloy definitely one of my fav characters in vg history. Think Guerrilla did an amazing, underrated job with this world.
I appreciate you breaking down this type of villainy because its quite relatable to real life in how the wealthiest people are looked up to being great simply because of their wealth and stature. But also how they can come across as the most arrogant, self absorbed sociopaths. Only concerned with themselves at the cost of others. You definitely broke down their character in some deep critique that highlights what the writing dev team was trying to convey with FZ. Well done.
There are villains that some folks root for. I think the best villains are the ones where you hate them as much as the protagonist does. You cant wait for the comeuppance. Far Zenith reminds me of Commodus in Gladiator. You know he was the villain from the first time he was on screen. Phoenix played an incredible role as the villain that you cant wait to get killed by Maximus.
Thank you, that was a brilliant analysis!
I also hope that Nemsis is an interesting villain, since there is hardly any lore left that could provide an interesting story.
The story should focus even more on interpersonal relationships in order to be interesting.
Nemesis could be a cool character to carry the story.
First time I saw Far Zenith, I went: "Ah fuck, they're Orokin."
17:00 What's scarier than a killbot A.I? An idiot bully wearing a starship. No wonder Nemesis is malicious, with all these rich, immortal, experienced senile morons _screaming_ inside it.
For all her mentioning of "my people" and saving great Dutch paintings, she seems to have lost any ACTUAL connection to Dutch culture/identity. If there ever even was any. I say this, because even though her name include the word "van", she cannot actually pronounce it correctly. To be honest, the real reason is probably that the voice actor simply can't speak Dutch, even though it seems she did try her best to pronounce it correctly. It just so happens that what we get in game sounds so much like a Dutch person who has all but forgotten how to actually speak Dutch correctly (Very possible, I've actually seen some lesser cases of this). So I choose to believe that even though she's proud to be Dutch on the surface, she has not spoken Dutch for probably a thousand years. Which is very fitting for the type of shallowness and uncaringness she is.
Reminds me of the vampire lestat. He tries so hard to come off as civilized and talks about things which he lost all feeling and knowledge about but it makes him seem civil. Dude lived for so long he has forgotton, which gets called out by other vampires who didnt lose their humanity, which makes him flustered as fuck
@@Needler13 That's hilarious! Where's he from?
@@BasicallyBaconSandvichIVInterview with The Vampire!
@@RJBORTZ Thank you! I'll check it out!
Great video! I can really feel the contempt you have for the Zeniths, and have perfectly articulated why I felt the same.
Nemesis remind me of the beast in infamous we all thought it was a monster but it turn out it was one person making the next human evolution making super people
With the second painting in the art galery, it also kind of shows how she sees herself in relation to Aloy and probably Elizabeth. She a powerful goddess, while Aloy and Elizabeth should be beneath her, just simple mortals. It might even imply that Aloy or Elizabeth should be happy about receiving her love, the love of someone who usually shouldn't even notice them.
The only thing that bothers me about the deaths of the Far Zenith is how little affected they are. Being the stupid, selfcentered bastards they are, the immortality must have made them consider themselves gods. Losing the sight of death. Them dying should be even more terrifying for them than for a normal person. The fact that we don't see them screaming in terror as they try to avoid the fate they should have met a long time ago feels disappointing to me
"Victory has made you weak, power has made you complacent"
this phrase describes them perfectly
Between Faro and Far Zenith, you really have to give credit to Guerrilla Games for having the balls for choosing to make such fundamentally pathetic villains, and the skill at writing them so well.
I feel like Tilda would’ve groomed Beta if given a chance, a icky as that idea is
I disagree simply because she had the chance. They created Beta and ignored her, they had a guy just murdering people for a thousand years, I'm sure that Grooming would not count in the top ten worst things done in VR there. I'm not sure how many would blink an eye as long as she didn't break the "Tool".
@@jack727dave5 correction, she had the chance and saw Beta wasn’t like the Elisabet she remembered. You’re still right but it’s more because she lost interest.
Her character becomes alot more icky when you realize she attempted to groom what are essentially her ex-girlfriends daughters, abandoned and neglected one when she didn't meat her "standards" and tried to forcibly take the "better version" to be her replacement wife
Imagine if Nemesis comes to Earth planning to wipe away the rest of humanity, but changes it's mind simply because they're a lot less insufferable than the Far Zenith?
Yeah we already killed Nemesis's enemies so it'd be nice if they show up, go "Mission Complete" and move on.
But since it's all the Zeniths combined, it probably will just see Earth as a new playground and become the new God Dictator
I think it is implied or even told that there were other Zeniths who were actually talented individuals and made the technological advancements they had. However, those Zeniths died and only the worst and most ruthless ones made it back to earth after nemesis. It could even be theorized that these 13 Zeniths probably killed some of the other Zeniths in order to escape from the nemesis in the ensuing chaos.
Its almost like far zenith is a mirror to corporate greed
There was another far zenith we do know of that doesn’t make it to earth- Stanley Chen. He was intelligent and saved Las Vegas when a massive drought threatened to destroy any human settlements in the Nevada area back before the apocalypse. He’s sentimental attachment to his greatest achievement, leaving him unable to fully shut down Americas playground, actually help Aloy save and restore GAIA. And he was noted by the other far zeniths to be kind and respectful person that shared his inventions even on their Sirius Colony. Tilda, despite herself, remembers him fondly and seems just as upset at his death as she was about Elisabet’s. Probably because they both shared qualities that were for humanity and not themselves