I love that Odin had to make Týr all panicked when he was free because the real Týr never broke under his torture. That HAD to have hurt his ego even more.
He’s the God of War torture under conflict shouldn’t break him at all he’s uses to it. Kratos even say it at their first meeting “This is the God of War?” Are you not a solider? an leader of men!??
I personally think it’s more likely the real Tyr was that way at first but eventually recovered and became himself again, and Odin can’t accept that so instead focuses on the past reality where it briefly seemed like he won as a way to mock him
I love how Odin literally wrote the whole arc for his fake disguise as Tyr. He starts acting by rejecting weapons, then proceeds by establishing that he doesn't want to fight even in dangerous situations (the hellwalker's attack), explains himself and claims that he would fight next time, and culminates his arc with "accepting" that he needs to fight and protect Nine Realms. What a clever bastard!
Yes except in combat Tyr would push enemies back sometimes killing him which might have been a gameplay oversight but it seems exactly like Odin to not be able to hold himself from getting involved.
@shadowknightgaming1874 that's an oversight, he's meant to push enemies to make it seem like he doesn't want to be involved in combat, though obviously Odin doesn't care in the slightest, thus why it does damage
The vegetable soup is also suspicious as Brok quickly detect that something is very wrong because vegetables only grow in good soil. Good soil only can he found on Asgard since the rest of realms don't have a fertile soil because of fimbulwintwr
Great theory, but they said fimbulwinter effects the realms in different ways so it MIGHT be possible it could grow on alfheim or the dwarves realm? But I’d much rather you be right
Also, at 6:46, when Atreus gives fake Tyr a spear, he passes it off as a "walking stick". Then later on in the game we find out Odin uses his own spear as an actual walking stick. God I love this game
that came later, i think a few weeks later in an update to the game. On launch, the subtitles would say Týr instead of Tyr, not giving away that he isnt the real deal
Odin already knew about Ironwood, Atreus and Mimir talked about it in front of him inside Groa’s shrine, he just didn’t believe that it existed, Atreus wasn’t sure it existed himself until after he was somehow magically transported their in his dreams, it’s why he couldn’t tell anyone about going to Jotunnheim, because the only reason that Odin wasn’t looking for Ironwood was because he believed that it did not exist.
The incredible thing about his disguise as Tyr is he doesn't actually make excuses for his odd behavior, we do. We rationalize things in our mind so that he has no suspicion placed upon him. He uses our ability to see the best in people against us.
And that is why Brock catches him, he doesn’t try to rationalize tyr’s changes. He doesn’t want to. He wants to ask questions, after all at this point in the story he’s recently found out he’s been lied to for the entirety of his second life, he’s bound to question things more.
Us, Atreus, and Kratos never met him, so we didn’t know any better. Everyone else just thought that Týr actually was broken, and didn’t want to reopen their friend’s wounds, so they were extremely gentle and forgiving any inconsistencies. Besides, torture is used because it works. Assuming that someone who has been tortured for centuries really was broken isn’t that much of a reach. Brok never was one for pussyfooting around subjects though, and the truth of the state of his soul rattled him, so he pushed just a bit farther than Odin could stand, causing the charade to fall apart.
I really love how you can actually find the real Tyr AFTER beating the story, in a hidden jail in one of the Realms. Said jail also contains all of Odin's various disguises he uses throughout the games. It's honestly pretty interesting to notice how some of those bodies *were actual background characters you see in the realms*
@@piketheknight2581 It's in Niflheim. There's a location called Asgard Prison Wreckage, I think. After meeting him there you can find him throughout the realms and get some extra dialogue from him.
There's a part where you go to Svartalfheim. There's a dwarf that flips you off from the distance. Director confirmed it's Odin. You later find his body in the jail. Wild
The plot twist makes a second playthrough of Ragnarök even better. All the subtle hints that are thrown your way: the lack of the accent over Týr’s name, his horror at Groá’s true prophecy, abjuring violence, sowing subtle divisions between Kratos & Atreus. Odin’s manipulation tactics were truly on another level, and he had them all fooled besides Brok seeing through his bullshit. But of course the deception is sabotaged by Odin’s megalomaniac need for control. I was kinda disappointed randomly stumbling across the true Týr in an Asgardian jail, but it was satisfying to see Odin had never broken his spirit. Then in Valhalla, we see Týr as the multi mythology badass who lives up to his legends.
“Tyr” was talking about how he wouldn’t take up arms but Týr proudly shows off his foreign weapon collection to Kratos The difference is ridiculous massive
I think a true god of war is a great tactician, however knows when to take arms. The skills of a great leader and expert an all kinds of combat. Being a pure pacifist is not being a god of war. A god of war is a balance of war and peace. Ares is more so an absolute monster. An example of how most people think of war. Athena (though a goddess of wisdom but is also a war goddess of tactics) is manipulative and uses war as battling from within. Týr has the ability to do both but decides to prioritize peace. Like I said he is a true god of war, an expert tactician that is willing to take arms. Just like Kratos in the current present. However Odin’s Tyr really is thinking on the surface level. He thinks that Tyr is the opposite of what a war god is supposed to be. My guess is that Odin wanted the greatest war general in all the realms and in the world and in spite made this Tyr an exaggerated pacifist.
@@TheUncivilizedNation you think after the game ends the two of them sit and admire their weapons? outside of the blades, those things probably sit in a dumpster
could also be in part his impatience was at a maximum. ragnarok was nigh and all he knew about ti was a lie. his home was doomed if the rophency concluded as advised. it made him all the more desperate for the knoweldge ofthe mask. to the piont he was even wiling to let atreus use the mask instead. jsut so some one would have the knwoledge, ANYONE.
Odin saying that he remembers food tasting better points to the fact that he doesn't eat, but only drinks, any food he is given he passes it to his pet wolves Geri and Freki.
I love Brok’s line “That Elf light is some good shit.” Because Kratos clearly has a strong connection to it as that is where he hears Laufey, where Brok just goes down there to get a euphoria boost.
I find it very interesting how he maintains his "humility" with the broom closet because it benefits him *and* he won't actually be uncomfortable in there (as he'll not really be there). When it comes to the food, though, he is "humble" about it until he realizes that he'll be expected to be at every meal (these people eat together - like a family). This is what Odin will be eating for as long as he is maintaining his disguise. When he is faced with actually "suffering" for his schemes, he takes action to see that he won't have to.
What I find interesting is how well the deception is laid. Every mannerism that Odin (as Tyr) uses, even the slip ups, are consistent with known symptoms and side effects of torture and PTSD: short term memory issues, imposter syndrome, disassociation, phycotic breaks, Stockholm, man-out-of-time, starvation recovery, etc. Even when it feels off, there's an easy explanation in an instant.
But I doubt a single person would show all of those symptoms, yet Tyr does. Odin is overselling PTSD. The writing in these games has so much depth it's unbelievable.
@@ysgramornorris2452someone faking a mental issue tends to "overperform" in comparison with someone who is actually struggling, that's scientifically proven
I mean sure but as was noted it's all over the place and not consistent. PTSD isn't random in it's make up, it's a stress response and generally speaking the triggers can be very well found and linked to events that the body is essentially still acting like it's in. Odin basically breaks character within 20 minutes of being released from the same spot for a long time. His arc has him more or less flip between archtypes with barely a throughline. Like what he does is mostly rely on everyone's assumptions and labels to just get on by.
I love that scene where he comes out of the shadows, covered in darkness, only the glint of his eyes visible. Like a raven observing his prey, eyes fixed on the prize. Even as he walks into the candles light, the shadows hang around him, looking like black wings below him. Beautifully framed, and very telling of his true persona.
I think there is a different and more apparent reason why Tyr was so aggressive towards Atreus right after the boy returns home. At that point in the story, Atreus exists simultaneously in two hypostases: as Atreus, who is Kratos' loving son trying desperately to avert his father's death, and as Loki, the Prince of Asgard, who is working -with- -against- beside Odin to find the answers that could change the fate of the entire world for the better. The point is, Atreus is so engrossed in the process of being himself that he isn't certain at the moment where his place is - *and Odin knows it.* So, Atreus f*cks up and frees Garm. He and Odin talk, and the boy decides he wants to go home - to Kratos. Odin is very cool with that for 3 reasons (and it's important): 1) he knows Loki will be back for the delicious bait of the infinite knowledge the mask promises; 2) he needs to contrast himself to Kratos, who tried to hold Atreus - he readily lets the boy go, saying: "Okay, if that's what you want... you're not a prisoner *_here_* "; and 3) he needs to let Atreus do what the boy wants, because it is very important in a good manipulation - to make the victim believe noone made them do anything, they made all the desicions themselves; meanwhile the manipulator pulls the threads from the shadows, influencing the environment; and Odin has a "golden thread": fake Tyr. And so all those 3 reasons come together when Tyr begins to verbally assault the already guilt-ridden, wilted Atreus. Mimir and Freya are just exasperated and are still reeling after the attack of Hel-Walkers, - but Tyr pours gasoline on their rebukes: "WHAT, IT WAS YOU, YOU DID THIS?! ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?! IS THAT YOUR ALTER-EGO LOKI'S DOING??!" ...And boom - now the environment sends the message to Atreus: look, they don't understand you here, - you were better off in Asgard, with the calm and agreeable All-Father; look, they're angry and shouting, - everyone's against you AGAIN, even your father won't support you... you shouldn't have come back after all, especially in this extremely vulnerable state of guilt and regret... it feels bad to be back, doesn't it? And then his father does support him, and all of Tyr's words become smoke on the water. Thanks to DrMick for unwittingly inspiring this comment. =)
Damn that is a deep layer of emotional manipulation. FatBrett needs to sticky this. Odin might be one of the best written villains in video game history. There is just SO MUCH to peel back with this guy. Every time you think you've spotted everything, there's always *more* manipulation to sus out. Mimir really said it best. If Odin tells you the snow is white, he's LYING!
yea without Kratos becoming a better person.. and brok being incredibly savvy, it would have all gone according to plan, Odin simply refused to bet on people's better natures.
@@keithfilibeck2390 Odin himself is incapable of changing, or he refuses to accept that gods CAN change, and therfore the consequences to his actions are also squarely on him and not just 'the whims of fate' So he is blindsided (pun not intended) by Kratos's change and growth throughout Ragnarok. Odin never accounts for the others around him growing as people and is caught off guard over and over, he didnt see it with Kratos or Atreus, nor Thor or Freya, hell not even Sindri at the end. And it was his downfal..
There's something interesting at 42:45 that I haven't seen anyone point out: In the previous scene, in Atteus's room, in Asgard, we see a shield rack, one of these shields being red. And, in the following scenes, Tyr emerges wielding that very same red shield! I only noticed on my second playthrough, and I think that is some amazingly subtle foreshadowing that doesnt get enough credit.
My favorite is how when you meet "Tyr" for the first time, Odin plays the character of a man who's lost his spirit and been broken by imprisonment and torture. But when you meet the real Tyr, he's cool as a cucumber. Odin as Tyr: "I've been beaten by that dashing, handsome rogue of an all-father! Please, let me lie in the dirt, it's worse when he's angry!" Actual Tyr: "Oh hey guys, what's up? Wanna go overthrow that nerd?" "We actually already killed him" "Oh cool? No cap?"
What I love about Odin's Tyr disguise is how, especially after you find the real Týr in the post story content, its a complete mockery while also being an effective disguise. Odin portrays Tyr as a meek god who spouts pacifistic, and somewhat condescending, philosophy even when war *is* the answer. Whereas the real Týr is a *badarse* who gives genuine wisdom and humble advice, but is also ready to throw down at a moment's notice. Even giving Kratos with the *Blade of Olympus* a hard time in the new DLC Odin even threw in a little arc for his version of Tyr, one that would let him "rise to the occasion" and literally lead the rebelling races into a slaughter. The only flaw in his plan was the fact that he overestimated himself. Him not trusting *anyone* meant that he was all on his own in balancing the trust of his family and the deception of the main characters as Tyr Keep in mind, Odin is genuinely *panicking* when Atreus teleports away with the mask to escape Thor. Now he had to come up with a narrative that would let him steal the mask. But he oversold and Brok finally snapped, started questioning all the little inconsistencies in his act and the jig was up. PS: I love the little details scattered throughout the game that allude to his identity and show Odin's cruelty and petulant attitude even while disguised Like how he calls Freya Frigg when they first see each other to subtly twist that knife Or how he pushes Atreus in disbelief when he realises he was working off a partly incorrect prophecy Or how his tone becomes agressive when he realises it was Brokk and Sindri that took Draupnir
Thor must have been grounded so hard after causing Atreus to run away with the mask. We saw how Odin treats the big guy when he's doing his job correctly, so imagine what he does when Thor _fucks up._ Especially after a fuck-up of _that_ magnitude.
I think what makes Tyr work so well is that Freya, Brock, Sindri, Mimir, and even Freya see what they want to see. It's like how no one sees Clark as Superman. Kratos and Atreus makes sense since this is the first time they are meeting Týr, they have no knowledge of who he was outside from what others have told them about him. But with everyone else, they're just happy to see he's alive and don't question all the inconsistencies that they should've seen, especially Freya and Mimir considering they knew Odin and Týr on a profound level. Because they've all changed so much before Týr's capture they assume the same but after meeting the real Týr we see he remained largely the same from what the Giants depicting him as. In a lot of ways, they were blinded by revenge and rage.
This is really one of those twists that recontextualises a lot of the story beats when you're replaying through the game again. Tyr refusing to fight at all when you first meet him, insisting on sticking around to offer his wisdom and then going out of his way to drive a wedge between the cast. It was interesting to watch people playign this game on RUclips and seeing certain people being really suspicious of him. Seriously, that part where Kratos and Freya are having a discussion in the home base and you see Tyr just lurking in the background like a creep, about to slide into the conversation and drive another wedge in. It's clear that Odin hated the fact that Tyr was working against him so much that he didn't only have him imprisoned, but then dragged his reputation through the mud with a bad impersonation of him.
The scene in Gróa's shrine is also another hint that Tyr was Odin in disguise - he bumps into Atreus without noticing him there, and Atreus is to his right (the same side he has the missing eye)
Odin isn't blind in that eye though he can see, he uses it to broadcast the sight of his ravens, and in mythology he can still "see" through it in that he's sees the "spirits of all things,"
@@BigPanda096That's in mythology. In the games he's blind in that eye, and the ravens either tell him (the scene he argues with one of them) or he "absorbs" it from them (the scenes the ravens go into his arms and become his tatoos).
That's a good one. Another giveaway is that he bumps into Atreus and doesn't make the subtlest move to apologize as this super-polite Tyr he's trying to play would do
I just want to give a lot of praise to Tyr's actor. I don't know his name but he does a really good job playing two wildly different versions of the character
I loved how they worked this character. I could tell there was something fishy with this False-Tyr, they didn't just make him paragon, up until the big reveal. It was genuinely uncomfortable having that guy around our protagonists. This is going to be gooood.
For me, he was annoying and a disappointment. Every time he came on and started taking his pacifist gobbledygook I rolled my eyes. I also yelled in disbelief when he would run and cower when in Svartilheim and not help me fight. When the big reveal came, my first thought was that Odin broke him to help him with the mask and rift, that’s how fed up I was with him. But when he was revealed to BE Odin, my jaw dropped. I just looked at my dad who was playing it with me and he had the same look on his face; we didn’t see it coming.
@@taylorwarden205 and when you find the real Tyr, he's a real one. Not even a bit phased by anything and absolutely NOTHING like what Odin tries to portray him as
@@Buggolious I know, he is like “ man what a wild ride, what did I miss?” 😅And then just seeing him around the realms doing tai chi and meditating which was a total 180 from how “Tyr” acted throughout the game. It’s almost like Odin picked one thing that he knew about Tyr and something he probably hated about him (his want for peace and not going for everything Odin said) and just did it as a mockery.
The funny thing is, I knew things were off in many scenes, and yet I also didn't look too much into it because I was like "well I don't know the guy and he's been locked up a long time, maybe he's just like this" 😅
This was me with the infamous pancake scene in persona 5 I just thought it was an error or someone else said it even tho it fully registered with me that he shouldnt be talking about it
Same! The real first time I feel Tyr is really weird is when he called Freya as Frigg. I watched a complication of Mimir's stories from previous game not too long before I watched that scene about Odin called Freya as Frigg but I dismissed that thought because I thought maybe Freya was well liked by others and has good relationship with Týr so he called her Frigg too. Oh well, hours later, Tyr is Odin lol.
I just noticed another slip up by Odin while watching your video that you may have missed. After Kratos kills Heimdall, Týr remarks, "Odin swore peace so long as you spilled no more Aesir blood." Kratos then says he denied the deal, and Týr states Odin still honored that deal. Throughout both games, we follow Kratos and/or Atreus pretty much every step of the way. We see and hear just about every conversation they ever have. And in your video, you have pretty much every conversation between Kratos, Atreus, and Týr. Unless someone (Mimir or Freya) said something too him off camera, Týr sould have no knowledge about Odin's deal let alone that Odin was keeping up any such bargain. I think this was Odin once again slipping up in his disguise by trying to indirectly tell Kratos, "You just earned my wrath."
I get your point, I thought the same at first, but we have at least 3 or 4 extensive Atreus sections, it's completely possible that Kratos told Týr about Odin's visit during one of those periods.
After Valhalla I can see how this is a gross, mocking parody of the real Týr; especially in the scene with Kratos and Freya in the herb room, when Tyr comes out of the shadows like a goddamn super villian. You can hear Odin's venom behind every feigned word when he walks away from Kratos and Freya, pity whoring himself knowing that Freya is too empathetic and self-sacrificing to not chase after him. It's such a masterful move to simultaneously stop the conversation by refocusing the attention on Tyr's boo-hoo trauma, demoralize everyone, distract Freya, and get a get a jab on Týr character by portraying him as a crybaby. It's almost beautiful to behold if it weren't so gross.
I suppose Odin's almost spontaneous reaction to kill Brok came from the fact that not only was his ruse about to be revealed but the dwarf who had dared to "steal" Draupnir from him, who he had to tolerate while disguised, had just knocked the completed mask he had coveted for so long from his hand when he was literally a second away from escaping with it. He lashed out in fury and then desperately tried to use the reaction as a final gambit to get the mask that very nearly worked if it hadn't been for Kratos' skill spear throwing.
As skilled as Kratos is it’s ironic that despite killing Brok the very thing that was able to seperate Odin and the mask at the last second was the spear Brok himself made in the first place, a final screw you to Odin
the brilliance of the writing in this game is me dismissing every weird thing tyr did as, oh, he's been in solidary confinement for so long, no wonder he's messed up! ...odin using our own empathy and understanding against us is so evil. I'm so glad we got to meet the real Tyr eventually, and he's a very nice guy.
I don't remember where I originally read it, but one of my favorite observations about Odin's disguise of Týr is that it's suppose to be a mockery of him rather than a 1-to-1 representation. Which to me tracks as Odin is so prideful in his schemes and manipulations that he would be petty enough to be like "oh, look at me! I'm Týr! I'm so chill and humble and peaceful!" All because Týr would not break. xD
One thing you mentioned really pops out to me, when you described how Odins performance as Tyr when he is first seen is Odin's idea of a broken man, something that is completely at odds with how we later find Týr. And it ties together with something Mimir says regarding Odin's lies. "One thing to remember about liars, lad - They lie. They do it on principle. No issue too big or too small. They lie about everything they can get away with, and some things they can't, just to demonstrate their power over reality. Tyr is, in a way, another case of Odin exerting his control over reality. In his performance, he is showing what he wishes Týr actually was. Because despite his torture, despite the pain and suffering he subjected Týr to, Týr didn't break. He never lost who he was, his sense of self, his ideals and his wisdom. Týr is so, so much stronger than Odin, and that is something that Odin would find utterly intolerable. So he decides that he's gonna rewrite reality, like he has done time and time again with his other enemies, hence the "true" stories of Starkadr and Skadi, of who built the walls of Asgard, of Hrugnir and Ymir. Odin decides to give them Týr, the way he thinks Týr SHOULD be like. It's another petulant, pointless lie, which as we see, only serves to make him suspicious. But it's worth it, if it means changing what Týr is.
I mean yeah because he probably wasn't wrong. That and he likely didn't want to risk damaging the connection he was making with Atreus/Loki [whatever] which was allowing him to use him.
The ONLY time i was suspicious of Tyr was when the mask was complete. And after being nothing but a coward who refused too fight..... Suddenly wanted to charge into battle and lead an army. Didn't line up properly. Then Brok brings up the way too Asgard that Tyr kept secret. Odin slipped up and Brok saw directly through the Lie
DLC Týr was brilliant. It completely redeems his (lack of) character in the original game in my eyes. It's a narratively necessary lack, to be fair, but it was disappointing to me anyway to see so little of actual Týr at first. But the DLC was an excellent addition, and I hope we will see some more of Týr in the next GoW game, if only a little bit.
The reason why a broken “Tyr” is more effective is because the real Týr would be a lot more proactive then Kratos and Odin combined. Atreus would have never been swayed to go to Asgard. Meaning the Mask is never assembled. If Thor or Heindall came to fight the gods of war would handle it. Even without Draupnir. Ragnarok would start a lot earlier because Týr would have united the realms within days of his return. Freya would be brought to their side too. Basically the real Týr would speed-run the game
It was definitely one of the twists that worked because on rewatch you can see all all of the writing on the wall, not a bullshit 'twist' pulled out at the last second. Thank you so much for going over it step by step like this!
First time I honestly didn't suspect Tyr at all. Until the elf mural revelation. The way he walks forward and almost pushes Atreus out of the way and then says "She lied". Made my brain go RED FLAG! Him being actually Odin though was something I did not expect. I honestly thought the twist was going to be that Odin had indeed broken Tyr and turned him to his side.
Me too, i got the red flag at the mural, but didnt think about Odin. In the myths we all think about loki changing appereance, so we dont remember that Odin can do that too.
The voice actor does such a great job as imposter Odin and real Týr, there’s a shift in his tone in both performances and the real one sounds so genuinely wise compared to the fake one
Fake Tyr sounds like a time share or MLM sales man, slick, fake emotion. Insecurities pretending confidence. Real Tỳr is just, that calm pool. Undisturbed calm of True confidence.
@@Xehanort10kratos would have taken on thor and Tyr would have gone after Odin holding him long enough to allow the others to come help finish it. Thor would have live mostly
One brief moment you missed was right after the Alfheim scene. Atreus and Kratos brings up Kratos going in the light in the last game, and almost immediately Tyr interrupts: "You WENT into the light?! You must tell me, what did you see?!" He almost majorly slipped there. He couldn't help himself lol
I heard that every scene and every dialog, whether it's a book, a theater performance, a movie (or a game in this case) should serve at least one of three purposes, either push forward the main plot, extend arcs of characters involved, and/or add something into world building. A good scene fulfills at least two, and a great scene does all three at once. You can definitely see that Santa Monica did their homework, if people keep debunking GoW scenes on RUclips for years.
When I first played through Ragnarok I had no clue of Odin's deception. After playing Valhalla and seeing how awesome the true Tyr is, upon my reply of the game there's so many red flags in Odin's performance.
My reaction to 'Tyr' before the reveal: What good is a God of War that won't even fight? 😠 My reaction to 'Tyr' after the reveal: Holy sh*t! 😱 My reaction to Týr after the Valhalla DLC: Wow, now this is a God of War.
44:45 i think here Tyr is actually attempting to convince Atreus that he is better off at asgard. Trying to say: well, look how they treat you, they all turned on you, but Odin didnt, he counceled you and even allowed you to leave without much off a fuss. It is a way for Tyr to drive a wedge between Atreus and his family. He is also working on the other side as well, when he says "the runaway has brought this" to Kratos, he says in a way as to stoke Kratos anger, to remind him that he should be angry at Atreus
And it may have worked, if not for Kratos' wisdom and genuine love for his son. A selfish father would have lashed out and pushed his son away, a caring father knew that acceptance was the only way forward, and then to deal with the problem together.
Watching these scenes back, the body language that Tyr is showing is what intrigues me the most. Seeing his arms held behind is back is especially a curious action, as it makes him seem rather confident in what he's saying, even when it's not something Tyr should be saying.
remember, Tyr is not a character, is a caricature made by someone who hates him, and I know that will get broken down like hell in the next hour of video
I like to imagine that Odin didn’t realize he'd have to keep up the Tyr act after the escape from the cave. He was totally unprepared to keep up this illusion for longer than a day or two
While watching this excellent video, I noticed that during "Tyr's" speech about leading the group to Asgard, Freya looked around at everyone like, "What is this guy talking about?" I love the detail in this game!!! It was obvious at this point that things did not add up.
One thing that I want to point out about Tyr in Svartalfheim is the question that Odin posed to Atreus; the question about Atreus' intent behind freeing him. After this question was poses and Atreus answered that he wanted answers, Odin's preformance changed to make Tyr more wise and sage-like.
I wonder if Odin's cartoonish, over the top performance is another example of his lack of self control? Tyr was a thorn in his side for so long, beloved by almost everyone, and probably inconceivable to Odin why a god of war would vouch for peace. So he can't help but be spiteful in his performance; try and portray Tyr as condescending and a coward.
The scariest element of tear isn't just the lies and tales he weaves. It's his use of false empathy to manipulate those around him to get his way. He weilds it as skillfully as a swordaster holding a blade. We look at empathy as this 'good' attribute that people should have. Never discussing how villains use it to keep us in chains.
But does Odin really have empathy? He knows how people will act based on their emotions and nature but that’s not the same thing as feeling what they feel. In this video, it’s pointed out how Odin tries to further divide Kratos and Atreus by coming down hard on the boy after he frees Garm. Thinking that Kratos is driven by anger, and likely projecting as Odin’s reaction to his own son messing up would also be anger. Kratos telling him and the others to knock it off showed how he doesn’t understand or empathize with Kratos at all.
Empathy is never a bad thing. It's just that people without it know how to use yours against you. Wisdom and insight are what come into play here, the ability to tell the truth from the deception.
It’s interesting that when he finally listens to Atreus and kratos, he responds to Atreus’ agency and Kratos’ aggression, which are both things he tries to amplify later in the game
i spent my second playthrough with my eyes glued to Tyr whenever he was in frame, but this video is a whole different level of character analysis... well done
For all the time I noticed what Odin was all about during his time in Tyr's mode, the broom closet is something I never thought about, and now that you mentioned it, I was like "Odin, you sneaky mf"
At 45:37 I saw it as Kratos briefly held Mimir in front of Tyr but quickly offered it to Freya instead as if to tell the audience that Kratos dislikes/distrusts Tyr.
"Descryptions of hard tack says it is as hard as a brick but with slightly less flavour." I had to literally pause the video to stop laughing and then rewind the next 5 minutes cause i was distracted LMAO
11:08 i love this scene for kratos. When tyr says he has his question kratos looks in acknowledgment and when the question is asked he looks to atreus because it wasn't kratos who really wanted to free him and is looking for atreus to actually answer instead of kratos taking control of the situation
This is definitely a great analysis of Odin's disguise as Týr, and the clues of how Odin has hinted at his true identity. When looking back, it feels so obvious that Odin was disguised as Týr, but seeing this the 1st time around, Odin made it so that no one would question it. Even Mimir stated after the reveal that he couldn't believe that Odin was able to take advantage of the good guys to fool them for so long. Another interesting clue to the fake Týr is how Týr's name is spelled differently when it's the fake Týr. It's spelled Tyr rather than spelled Týr.
I really love the detail that when they're in Alfheim, Atreus says that they don't have a choice when it comes to fighting the elves, and Tyr responds with "There's always a choice" And in the end of the game, when they beat Odin, the roles are reversed. Odin says that he had no choice to killing his own son and Atreus tells him the same thing he did to Atreus.
It’s my personal headcanon that Brok’s biggest hint about “Tyr” before their confrontation was “Tyr”’s cooking. I refuse to believe Odin had a competent enough disguise to not cook like an Aesir king instead of a broken prisoner
I would to change the tytle's name to Tyr. The odin is named Tyr in the game. Many GoW hardcore fans could realize that the video is about Odin and few players that play GoWR now wouldn't know anything (they still don't get anything spoiled from the title). It just could be more interesting to me, if there was not the "A Deconstruction of Villainy" part. Ok i can see that i am really nitpicking here. Great video as always.
What a damm timing for this essay, just as I finished Valhalla like days ago and started realizing just how amazing characters the Tyrs really are lmao
Ngl i love the fact that in a world full of really deep characters worth of analysis the one we didn't look much into during the story is essential the "Caricature" of the god of war
Odin's deception, unintentionally, rides off of the fact thag no one truly knew how wise Tyr was. In Valhalla he is a wise person above all others, able to look at someone an tell them that despite all thwir darkest flaws, they can improve. He speaks to everyone like he's been their best friend for a lifetime. No one can ever know what that's like, especially not Odin. And so they just expect for Tyr to speak like a regular, if slightly more enlightened, person. If even one of the characters really knew what Tyr was like, Odin would be screwed from minute one.
I love brok bringing out celebratory "we just killed one of the enemies biggest tools" drinks right in front of odin is actually both very in character for brok and exceedingly funny.
I happened to notice early on that whenever he was speaking, the subtitles called him "Tyr" but whenever anyone else was talking about him, it was written properly (i.e, "Týr.") It could not be unseen after that, lol. Drove me nuts until the Big Reveal, paid off though!
This is crazy because I never thought of Odin with all of his inconsistencies in his actions. This video definitely sheds a different light on how desperate he was willing to go to get knowledge.
Real Tyr is the family therapist the Sparda boys DESPERATELY need. Also, the difference between Odin and Kratos when it comes to prophecy; Odin obsesses over it and is eventually destroyed by it, while Kratos doesn't care and is thus unaffected.
Another banger. I love these breakdowns. Something funny ive found is that all the ragnarok hate vidoes relesed almost immediately after release week, while thoughtfully edited examinations of the games story and characters are still releasing now and are way more carefully crafted. Good work
I just noticed that a section of Brok's funeral lament plays in the breakfast scene where Tyr and Brok talk for the first time, which supports my idea that the "I remember food tasting better" comment after asking for hardtack is what made Brok start watching and keeping track of what Tyr says and does, which leads to Brok's death
Great Video! Also Props to Ben Prendergast. This Guy plays both Tyr & Týr so good. Playing the same Character in 2 different Ways in always very interesting to me.
Tyr bumping passed Atreus to look at the prophecy is what made me really suspect something. That little moment of wanton disrespect is something you’d not expect from “Tyr”
Lol, speaking of hard tack... My partner tried making some, as a fun sort of project. You weren't kidding about it being as hard as a brick. We dropped one on the floor in the kitchen. Not only did it sound like dropping a hockey puck, it dented the hardwood floor as well.
Another slip up i noticed when playing the game for the second time. when atreus offers Tyr a spear to defend himself, he says "A walking stick?" When we go to asgard for the first time as atreus, we can see odin using his spear as a walking stick. Apparently odin does this to catch his enemies off guard, like when he killed Thor and Groa.
Also, in the very first scene, when Kratos pulls the rope around Tyr's neck to cut it, it makes it look like Tyr is being hung, which is probably a parallel to Odin, who hung himself from the branches of the world tree to gain knowledge.
Words do not describe how happy I was to find that the real Tyr is still alive out there post campaign. For some reason I thought the real one was dead after the big reveal, and it depressed me a little that we would never get to know him as a character beyond the stories we’ve heard about him
I think kratos kinda knew something was slightly off when he went to hand mimic to "tyr" and handed off to freya as he trusted her more. Kratos also has been constantly watching him from the start. I'm confident he had a feeling he was not to be trusted and he, ultimately and unfortunately, was right
Perfect, just a perfect cover up of the plot. The first thing I though to myself after I got over the 'shock' was wanting to know all that Odin did as Tyr, and you Sir brought me the peace of mind I needed. This game for me, is by far the best game ever in all my 14 years of gaming. It's astonishing! Thanks for the video!
What makes me mad at Odin the most is how he portrays Tyr as weak. We see the real Tyr is strong and willing to stand up to Odin. Mimir nailed on the head when he said Odin was making a mockery of him.
I won’t forget the experience when Brok started questioning him and then it slowly dawning on me and finally getting it right as Odin reached for the blade. I can’t remember the last time a twist really had me.
![[#2024MAMA] ROSÉ (로제), Bruno Mars - APT. | Mnet 241122 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgGqD28J6aQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I love that Odin had to make Týr all panicked when he was free because the real Týr never broke under his torture. That HAD to have hurt his ego even more.
Odin literally drew tyr as a crying soyjak
@@Mae_Dastardlyand I thought I was petty lmao
He’s the God of War torture under conflict shouldn’t break him at all he’s uses to it. Kratos even say it at their first meeting “This is the God of War?” Are you not a solider? an leader of men!??
I wanted to like this comment, but having the likes at 666 is too good for me to ruin XD. Nice observation though!
I personally think it’s more likely the real Tyr was that way at first but eventually recovered and became himself again, and Odin can’t accept that so instead focuses on the past reality where it briefly seemed like he won as a way to mock him
I love how Odin literally wrote the whole arc for his fake disguise as Tyr. He starts acting by rejecting weapons, then proceeds by establishing that he doesn't want to fight even in dangerous situations (the hellwalker's attack), explains himself and claims that he would fight next time, and culminates his arc with "accepting" that he needs to fight and protect Nine Realms.
What a clever bastard!
He just didin't planed to get angry and stab a dwarv
Yes except in combat Tyr would push enemies back sometimes killing him which might have been a gameplay oversight but it seems exactly like Odin to not be able to hold himself from getting involved.
"What a clever bastard!" -- Is that okay that I hear Mimir's voice in my head saying this? :)
Well, at least he had a plan
@shadowknightgaming1874 that's an oversight, he's meant to push enemies to make it seem like he doesn't want to be involved in combat, though obviously Odin doesn't care in the slightest, thus why it does damage
"This is a fuck-up of not-insignificant proportions" is my favorite Mimir line.
i need to use that sometime
"I'll show you permanent damage, ya wee fuck!" followed by him telling Kratos to throw him horns first made me giggle ngl
Calling Odin ‘All-Fucker’ is his best line tbh
It's such a strange line but why do I like it
mine's is just before that "GARM!? GREAT BLEEDING FUCK LAD YOU FREED GARM?!"
The vegetable soup is also suspicious as Brok quickly detect that something is very wrong because vegetables only grow in good soil. Good soil only can he found on Asgard since the rest of realms don't have a fertile soil because of fimbulwintwr
Oh shit
Oh. My god. The fkkin SOUP is a hint!!
The soup is a hint😂
*VEGTABLES, FUCKIN VEGTABLES! Now that just ain’t right*
I thought that reaction was funny before (also real as fuck), but after seeing this…. Fuck.
Great theory, but they said fimbulwinter effects the realms in different ways so it MIGHT be possible it could grow on alfheim or the dwarves realm? But I’d much rather you be right
Also, at 6:46, when Atreus gives fake Tyr a spear, he passes it off as a "walking stick". Then later on in the game we find out Odin uses his own spear as an actual walking stick. God I love this game
incredible
You like the lore/story, not the combat
@@andreimaxwell4455 nah I actually like both, I just feel it'd be out of place to talk about the games combat under a story discussion video
@@andreimaxwell4455 Weird af gatekeeping attempt bro
@@TheHandicat Gameplay > Story
It's actually so sick that the first hint is in the subtitles, Tyr! Instead of Týr
that came later, i think a few weeks later in an update to the game. On launch, the subtitles would say Týr instead of Tyr, not giving away that he isnt the real deal
@@PinkestValentine NO i have a disk that i didn't update of the original one it's still there
Thats not a hint its an easter egg
How the fuck did I miss this?
I never noticed 😑
“But what if Loki going to Ironwood-“
Thank goodness Kratos interrupted him here. Atreus just about reveals Ironwood to Odin.
Damn! Never thought about that
Odin already knew about Ironwood, Atreus and Mimir talked about it in front of him inside Groa’s shrine, he just didn’t believe that it existed, Atreus wasn’t sure it existed himself until after he was somehow magically transported their in his dreams, it’s why he couldn’t tell anyone about going to Jotunnheim, because the only reason that Odin wasn’t looking for Ironwood was because he believed that it did not exist.
@@t-rexcellentreviews1663 well thank to god he doesn’t even if he did it would’ve been bad news for kratos and Atreus
@@LordKangand Angrorboda as well.
The incredible thing about his disguise as Tyr is he doesn't actually make excuses for his odd behavior, we do. We rationalize things in our mind so that he has no suspicion placed upon him. He uses our ability to see the best in people against us.
Actually insanely true
Fair
And that is why Brock catches him, he doesn’t try to rationalize tyr’s changes. He doesn’t want to. He wants to ask questions, after all at this point in the story he’s recently found out he’s been lied to for the entirety of his second life, he’s bound to question things more.
when i first saw this story, something definitely seemed off but I did just pass it off as mere foolishness from Tyr.
Us, Atreus, and Kratos never met him, so we didn’t know any better. Everyone else just thought that Týr actually was broken, and didn’t want to reopen their friend’s wounds, so they were extremely gentle and forgiving any inconsistencies. Besides, torture is used because it works. Assuming that someone who has been tortured for centuries really was broken isn’t that much of a reach. Brok never was one for pussyfooting around subjects though, and the truth of the state of his soul rattled him, so he pushed just a bit farther than Odin could stand, causing the charade to fall apart.
I really love how you can actually find the real Tyr AFTER beating the story, in a hidden jail in one of the Realms. Said jail also contains all of Odin's various disguises he uses throughout the games. It's honestly pretty interesting to notice how some of those bodies *were actual background characters you see in the realms*
Wait what?! Where?!
Niflheim at odins tree with the ravens
@@piketheknight2581 It's in Niflheim. There's a location called Asgard Prison Wreckage, I think. After meeting him there you can find him throughout the realms and get some extra dialogue from him.
There's a part where you go to Svartalfheim. There's a dwarf that flips you off from the distance.
Director confirmed it's Odin. You later find his body in the jail. Wild
@@piketheknight2581niflheim, near the raven tree
Tyr is the villain, not Týr.
Came here to say this
Spoilers
@dudeguy8686
I feel like if you read the title of this video you're already getting spoiled.
@@dr-Dork 100%, i was just being facetious
@@dudeguy8686 sorry for the remark then :)
The plot twist makes a second playthrough of Ragnarök even better. All the subtle hints that are thrown your way: the lack of the accent over Týr’s name, his horror at Groá’s true prophecy, abjuring violence, sowing subtle divisions between Kratos & Atreus. Odin’s manipulation tactics were truly on another level, and he had them all fooled besides Brok seeing through his bullshit. But of course the deception is sabotaged by Odin’s megalomaniac need for control.
I was kinda disappointed randomly stumbling across the true Týr in an Asgardian jail, but it was satisfying to see Odin had never broken his spirit. Then in Valhalla, we see Týr as the multi mythology badass who lives up to his legends.
“Tyr” was talking about how he wouldn’t take up arms but Týr proudly shows off his foreign weapon collection to Kratos
The difference is ridiculous massive
I think a true god of war is a great tactician, however knows when to take arms. The skills of a great leader and expert an all kinds of combat. Being a pure pacifist is not being a god of war. A god of war is a balance of war and peace. Ares is more so an absolute monster. An example of how most people think of war. Athena (though a goddess of wisdom but is also a war goddess of tactics) is manipulative and uses war as battling from within. Týr has the ability to do both but decides to prioritize peace. Like I said he is a true god of war, an expert tactician that is willing to take arms. Just like Kratos in the current present. However Odin’s Tyr really is thinking on the surface level. He thinks that Tyr is the opposite of what a war god is supposed to be. My guess is that Odin wanted the greatest war general in all the realms and in the world and in spite made this Tyr an exaggerated pacifist.
@@TheUncivilizedNation you think after the game ends the two of them sit and admire their weapons? outside of the blades, those things probably sit in a dumpster
could also be in part his impatience was at a maximum. ragnarok was nigh and all he knew about ti was a lie. his home was doomed if the rophency concluded as advised. it made him all the more desperate for the knoweldge ofthe mask.
to the piont he was even wiling to let atreus use the mask instead. jsut so some one would have the knwoledge, ANYONE.
why would you be disappointed to find Tyr? pretty weird take honestly
Odin saying that he remembers food tasting better points to the fact that he doesn't eat, but only drinks, any food he is given he passes it to his pet wolves Geri and Freki.
Wait, really? Where did you get this information from? Is it from Norse Myth?
@@ВладиславБулаев-л3э yepp
I believe he is sustained on only wine
@@ВладиславБулаев-л3э Yes, that's right. In the myths Odin sustains himself on drinks alone.
@@ysgramornorris2452 didn't know that, what a cool piece of mythology
That’s why him and Baldur are so damn skinny, too. They just don’t eat. Baldur got nothing out of it and Odin has better things to do
I love Brok’s line “That Elf light is some good shit.” Because Kratos clearly has a strong connection to it as that is where he hears Laufey, where Brok just goes down there to get a euphoria boost.
Thats his favourite vape spot
Yes... coz parts of his soul are down there
@@kristianparalisan8909 no
Although wasn't he banned from the realm? (According to Sindri?)
@@diamondj4484 yes he is
I find it very interesting how he maintains his "humility" with the broom closet because it benefits him *and* he won't actually be uncomfortable in there (as he'll not really be there). When it comes to the food, though, he is "humble" about it until he realizes that he'll be expected to be at every meal (these people eat together - like a family). This is what Odin will be eating for as long as he is maintaining his disguise. When he is faced with actually "suffering" for his schemes, he takes action to see that he won't have to.
What I find interesting is how well the deception is laid. Every mannerism that Odin (as Tyr) uses, even the slip ups, are consistent with known symptoms and side effects of torture and PTSD: short term memory issues, imposter syndrome, disassociation, phycotic breaks, Stockholm, man-out-of-time, starvation recovery, etc. Even when it feels off, there's an easy explanation in an instant.
But I doubt a single person would show all of those symptoms, yet Tyr does. Odin is overselling PTSD. The writing in these games has so much depth it's unbelievable.
@@ysgramornorris2452someone faking a mental issue tends to "overperform" in comparison with someone who is actually struggling, that's scientifically proven
@@joaovitorbarianimeirelesmo5686 Like Odysseus when he was trying to get out of going to Troy.
you are reading way too far into it.
I mean sure but as was noted it's all over the place and not consistent. PTSD isn't random in it's make up, it's a stress response and generally speaking the triggers can be very well found and linked to events that the body is essentially still acting like it's in. Odin basically breaks character within 20 minutes of being released from the same spot for a long time. His arc has him more or less flip between archtypes with barely a throughline. Like what he does is mostly rely on everyone's assumptions and labels to just get on by.
I love that scene where he comes out of the shadows, covered in darkness, only the glint of his eyes visible. Like a raven observing his prey, eyes fixed on the prize. Even as he walks into the candles light, the shadows hang around him, looking like black wings below him.
Beautifully framed, and very telling of his true persona.
The worst thing about Odin is that he gives ravens a bad name. They are actually quite silly by nature! Scavengers tend to be chill like that.
I think there is a different and more apparent reason why Tyr was so aggressive towards Atreus right after the boy returns home.
At that point in the story, Atreus exists simultaneously in two hypostases: as Atreus, who is Kratos' loving son trying desperately to avert his father's death, and as Loki, the Prince of Asgard, who is working -with- -against- beside Odin to find the answers that could change the fate of the entire world for the better. The point is, Atreus is so engrossed in the process of being himself that he isn't certain at the moment where his place is - *and Odin knows it.*
So, Atreus f*cks up and frees Garm. He and Odin talk, and the boy decides he wants to go home - to Kratos. Odin is very cool with that for 3 reasons (and it's important): 1) he knows Loki will be back for the delicious bait of the infinite knowledge the mask promises; 2) he needs to contrast himself to Kratos, who tried to hold Atreus - he readily lets the boy go, saying: "Okay, if that's what you want... you're not a prisoner *_here_* "; and 3) he needs to let Atreus do what the boy wants, because it is very important in a good manipulation - to make the victim believe noone made them do anything, they made all the desicions themselves; meanwhile the manipulator pulls the threads from the shadows, influencing the environment; and Odin has a "golden thread": fake Tyr.
And so all those 3 reasons come together when Tyr begins to verbally assault the already guilt-ridden, wilted Atreus. Mimir and Freya are just exasperated and are still reeling after the attack of Hel-Walkers, - but Tyr pours gasoline on their rebukes: "WHAT, IT WAS YOU, YOU DID THIS?! ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?! IS THAT YOUR ALTER-EGO LOKI'S DOING??!"
...And boom - now the environment sends the message to Atreus: look, they don't understand you here, - you were better off in Asgard, with the calm and agreeable All-Father; look, they're angry and shouting, - everyone's against you AGAIN, even your father won't support you... you shouldn't have come back after all, especially in this extremely vulnerable state of guilt and regret... it feels bad to be back, doesn't it?
And then his father does support him, and all of Tyr's words become smoke on the water.
Thanks to DrMick for unwittingly inspiring this comment. =)
Damn that is a deep layer of emotional manipulation. FatBrett needs to sticky this.
Odin might be one of the best written villains in video game history. There is just SO MUCH to peel back with this guy. Every time you think you've spotted everything, there's always *more* manipulation to sus out.
Mimir really said it best. If Odin tells you the snow is white, he's LYING!
yea without Kratos becoming a better person.. and brok being incredibly savvy, it would have all gone according to plan, Odin simply refused to bet on people's better natures.
I read DrMick as MrDick
@@keithfilibeck2390 Odin himself is incapable of changing, or he refuses to accept that gods CAN change, and therfore the consequences to his actions are also squarely on him and not just 'the whims of fate'
So he is blindsided (pun not intended) by Kratos's change and growth throughout Ragnarok. Odin never accounts for the others around him growing as people and is caught off guard over and over, he didnt see it with Kratos or Atreus, nor Thor or Freya, hell not even Sindri at the end. And it was his downfal..
There's something interesting at 42:45 that I haven't seen anyone point out:
In the previous scene, in Atteus's room, in Asgard, we see a shield rack, one of these shields being red. And, in the following scenes, Tyr emerges wielding that very same red shield!
I only noticed on my second playthrough, and I think that is some amazingly subtle foreshadowing that doesnt get enough credit.
Just when I thought I'd seen all the clues. Amazing find!
I love how even when Tyr says "Is that the Týr you need?"
Like, even when he says the name, he's referring to Týr, not himself.
My favorite is how when you meet "Tyr" for the first time, Odin plays the character of a man who's lost his spirit and been broken by imprisonment and torture. But when you meet the real Tyr, he's cool as a cucumber.
Odin as Tyr: "I've been beaten by that dashing, handsome rogue of an all-father! Please, let me lie in the dirt, it's worse when he's angry!"
Actual Tyr: "Oh hey guys, what's up? Wanna go overthrow that nerd?"
"We actually already killed him"
"Oh cool? No cap?"
Also real Tỳr : hey Kratos wanna go Valhalla for therapy?
What I love about Odin's Tyr disguise is how, especially after you find the real Týr in the post story content, its a complete mockery while also being an effective disguise.
Odin portrays Tyr as a meek god who spouts pacifistic, and somewhat condescending, philosophy even when war *is* the answer.
Whereas the real Týr is a *badarse* who gives genuine wisdom and humble advice, but is also ready to throw down at a moment's notice. Even giving Kratos with the *Blade of Olympus* a hard time in the new DLC
Odin even threw in a little arc for his version of Tyr, one that would let him "rise to the occasion" and literally lead the rebelling races into a slaughter.
The only flaw in his plan was the fact that he overestimated himself.
Him not trusting *anyone* meant that he was all on his own in balancing the trust of his family and the deception of the main characters as Tyr
Keep in mind, Odin is genuinely *panicking* when Atreus teleports away with the mask to escape Thor. Now he had to come up with a narrative that would let him steal the mask. But he oversold and Brok finally snapped, started questioning all the little inconsistencies in his act and the jig was up.
PS:
I love the little details scattered throughout the game that allude to his identity and show Odin's cruelty and petulant attitude even while disguised
Like how he calls Freya Frigg when they first see each other to subtly twist that knife
Or how he pushes Atreus in disbelief when he realises he was working off a partly incorrect prophecy
Or how his tone becomes agressive when he realises it was Brokk and Sindri that took Draupnir
Also, how he's called *Tyr* in the subtitles, not *Týr*, like when other characters speak of the actual god.
@@AnonEcho98 he actually did this in his comment, pretty clever
Thor must have been grounded so hard after causing Atreus to run away with the mask. We saw how Odin treats the big guy when he's doing his job correctly, so imagine what he does when Thor _fucks up._ Especially after a fuck-up of _that_ magnitude.
DO YOU NEVER SHUT UP??!!
Not to mention he winked when he was talking about the mask via atreus’s drawing with his missing eye whilst disguised as Tyr
I think what makes Tyr work so well is that Freya, Brock, Sindri, Mimir, and even Freya see what they want to see. It's like how no one sees Clark as Superman. Kratos and Atreus makes sense since this is the first time they are meeting Týr, they have no knowledge of who he was outside from what others have told them about him. But with everyone else, they're just happy to see he's alive and don't question all the inconsistencies that they should've seen, especially Freya and Mimir considering they knew Odin and Týr on a profound level. Because they've all changed so much before Týr's capture they assume the same but after meeting the real Týr we see he remained largely the same from what the Giants depicting him as. In a lot of ways, they were blinded by revenge and rage.
This is really one of those twists that recontextualises a lot of the story beats when you're replaying through the game again.
Tyr refusing to fight at all when you first meet him, insisting on sticking around to offer his wisdom and then going out of his way to drive a wedge between the cast. It was interesting to watch people playign this game on RUclips and seeing certain people being really suspicious of him. Seriously, that part where Kratos and Freya are having a discussion in the home base and you see Tyr just lurking in the background like a creep, about to slide into the conversation and drive another wedge in.
It's clear that Odin hated the fact that Tyr was working against him so much that he didn't only have him imprisoned, but then dragged his reputation through the mud with a bad impersonation of him.
The scene in Gróa's shrine is also another hint that Tyr was Odin in disguise - he bumps into Atreus without noticing him there, and Atreus is to his right (the same side he has the missing eye)
Odin isn't blind in that eye though he can see, he uses it to broadcast the sight of his ravens, and in mythology he can still "see" through it in that he's sees the "spirits of all things,"
@@BigPanda096That's in mythology. In the games he's blind in that eye, and the ravens either tell him (the scene he argues with one of them) or he "absorbs" it from them (the scenes the ravens go into his arms and become his tatoos).
That's a good one. Another giveaway is that he bumps into Atreus and doesn't make the subtlest move to apologize as this super-polite Tyr he's trying to play would do
I just want to give a lot of praise to Tyr's actor. I don't know his name but he does a really good job playing two wildly different versions of the character
Brian Pendergast
*Ben Prendergast@@christianjacinto7042
I loved how they worked this character. I could tell there was something fishy with this False-Tyr, they didn't just make him paragon, up until the big reveal. It was genuinely uncomfortable having that guy around our protagonists. This is going to be gooood.
For me, he was annoying and a disappointment. Every time he came on and started taking his pacifist gobbledygook I rolled my eyes. I also yelled in disbelief when he would run and cower when in Svartilheim and not help me fight. When the big reveal came, my first thought was that Odin broke him to help him with the mask and rift, that’s how fed up I was with him. But when he was revealed to BE Odin, my jaw dropped. I just looked at my dad who was playing it with me and he had the same look on his face; we didn’t see it coming.
@@taylorwarden205 and when you find the real Tyr, he's a real one. Not even a bit phased by anything and absolutely NOTHING like what Odin tries to portray him as
@@Buggolious I know, he is like “ man what a wild ride, what did I miss?” 😅And then just seeing him around the realms doing tai chi and meditating which was a total 180 from how “Tyr” acted throughout the game. It’s almost like Odin picked one thing that he knew about Tyr and something he probably hated about him (his want for peace and not going for everything Odin said) and just did it as a mockery.
The funny thing is, I knew things were off in many scenes, and yet I also didn't look too much into it because I was like "well I don't know the guy and he's been locked up a long time, maybe he's just like this" 😅
Once you learn to watch how people move and think, it's all a matter of time until you end up getting to the bottom of that person's true intentions.
This was me with the infamous pancake scene in persona 5 I just thought it was an error or someone else said it even tho it fully registered with me that he shouldnt be talking about it
Same! The real first time I feel Tyr is really weird is when he called Freya as Frigg. I watched a complication of Mimir's stories from previous game not too long before I watched that scene about Odin called Freya as Frigg but I dismissed that thought because I thought maybe Freya was well liked by others and has good relationship with Týr so he called her Frigg too.
Oh well, hours later, Tyr is Odin lol.
I just noticed another slip up by Odin while watching your video that you may have missed. After Kratos kills Heimdall, Týr remarks, "Odin swore peace so long as you spilled no more Aesir blood." Kratos then says he denied the deal, and Týr states Odin still honored that deal.
Throughout both games, we follow Kratos and/or Atreus pretty much every step of the way. We see and hear just about every conversation they ever have. And in your video, you have pretty much every conversation between Kratos, Atreus, and Týr. Unless someone (Mimir or Freya) said something too him off camera, Týr sould have no knowledge about Odin's deal let alone that Odin was keeping up any such bargain.
I think this was Odin once again slipping up in his disguise by trying to indirectly tell Kratos, "You just earned my wrath."
I get your point, I thought the same at first, but we have at least 3 or 4 extensive Atreus sections, it's completely possible that Kratos told Týr about Odin's visit during one of those periods.
After Valhalla I can see how this is a gross, mocking parody of the real Týr; especially in the scene with Kratos and Freya in the herb room, when Tyr comes out of the shadows like a goddamn super villian. You can hear Odin's venom behind every feigned word when he walks away from Kratos and Freya, pity whoring himself knowing that Freya is too empathetic and self-sacrificing to not chase after him.
It's such a masterful move to simultaneously stop the conversation by refocusing the attention on Tyr's boo-hoo trauma, demoralize everyone, distract Freya, and get a get a jab on Týr character by portraying him as a crybaby. It's almost beautiful to behold if it weren't so gross.
I suppose Odin's almost spontaneous reaction to kill Brok came from the fact that not only was his ruse about to be revealed but the dwarf who had dared to "steal" Draupnir from him, who he had to tolerate while disguised, had just knocked the completed mask he had coveted for so long from his hand when he was literally a second away from escaping with it. He lashed out in fury and then desperately tried to use the reaction as a final gambit to get the mask that very nearly worked if it hadn't been for Kratos' skill spear throwing.
As skilled as Kratos is it’s ironic that despite killing Brok the very thing that was able to seperate Odin and the mask at the last second was the spear Brok himself made in the first place, a final screw you to Odin
@@axilus_4012A spear made from the ring they stole back from Odin is the reason he failed, how poetic
brok also made fun of his cooking >:(
You mean how Tyrable Odin’s disguise is
Sorry….
Or Low Tyr 😅
It wasn't a top Tyr disguise.
i can never resist a Tyrific pun.
You guys are all Týriffic.
👏👏👏
Tyr's portrayal across games is an excellent example of storytelling. Props to the writers
the brilliance of the writing in this game is me dismissing every weird thing tyr did as, oh, he's been in solidary confinement for so long, no wonder he's messed up! ...odin using our own empathy and understanding against us is so evil.
I'm so glad we got to meet the real Tyr eventually, and he's a very nice guy.
I don't remember where I originally read it, but one of my favorite observations about Odin's disguise of Týr is that it's suppose to be a mockery of him rather than a 1-to-1 representation. Which to me tracks as Odin is so prideful in his schemes and manipulations that he would be petty enough to be like "oh, look at me! I'm Týr! I'm so chill and humble and peaceful!" All because Týr would not break. xD
One thing you mentioned really pops out to me, when you described how Odins performance as Tyr when he is first seen is Odin's idea of a broken man, something that is completely at odds with how we later find Týr. And it ties together with something Mimir says regarding Odin's lies.
"One thing to remember about liars, lad - They lie. They do it on principle. No issue too big or too small. They lie about everything they can get away with, and some things they can't, just to demonstrate their power over reality.
Tyr is, in a way, another case of Odin exerting his control over reality. In his performance, he is showing what he wishes Týr actually was. Because despite his torture, despite the pain and suffering he subjected Týr to, Týr didn't break. He never lost who he was, his sense of self, his ideals and his wisdom. Týr is so, so much stronger than Odin, and that is something that Odin would find utterly intolerable. So he decides that he's gonna rewrite reality, like he has done time and time again with his other enemies, hence the "true" stories of Starkadr and Skadi, of who built the walls of Asgard, of Hrugnir and Ymir. Odin decides to give them Týr, the way he thinks Týr SHOULD be like.
It's another petulant, pointless lie, which as we see, only serves to make him suspicious. But it's worth it, if it means changing what Týr is.
Perfect pointed. I've met some big liars, and they truly are like this.
50:12 It's funny how in Asgard when Odin asks Atreus who killed Heimdall and Atreus goes "Everyone hated him" Odin doesn't deny it.
I mean yeah because he probably wasn't wrong. That and he likely didn't want to risk damaging the connection he was making with Atreus/Loki [whatever] which was allowing him to use him.
The ONLY time i was suspicious of Tyr was when the mask was complete. And after being nothing but a coward who refused too fight.....
Suddenly wanted to charge into battle and lead an army. Didn't line up properly. Then Brok brings up the way too Asgard that Tyr kept secret. Odin slipped up and Brok saw directly through the Lie
I first I wasn't feeling how they did Tyr. But with time passing and the addition of DLC. They turned it around, excellent work by the developers
DLC Týr was brilliant. It completely redeems his (lack of) character in the original game in my eyes. It's a narratively necessary lack, to be fair, but it was disappointing to me anyway to see so little of actual Týr at first. But the DLC was an excellent addition, and I hope we will see some more of Týr in the next GoW game, if only a little bit.
@@holysecret2 yeah it mostly redeems it but it would have been nice to be with the gigachad tyr in the main story but what we have is pretty good
The reason why a broken “Tyr” is more effective is because the real Týr would be a lot more proactive then Kratos and Odin combined. Atreus would have never been swayed to go to Asgard. Meaning the Mask is never assembled. If Thor or Heindall came to fight the gods of war would handle it. Even without Draupnir. Ragnarok would start a lot earlier because Týr would have united the realms within days of his return. Freya would be brought to their side too. Basically the real Týr would speed-run the game
It was definitely one of the twists that worked because on rewatch you can see all all of the writing on the wall, not a bullshit 'twist' pulled out at the last second. Thank you so much for going over it step by step like this!
First time I honestly didn't suspect Tyr at all. Until the elf mural revelation. The way he walks forward and almost pushes Atreus out of the way and then says "She lied". Made my brain go RED FLAG! Him being actually Odin though was something I did not expect. I honestly thought the twist was going to be that Odin had indeed broken Tyr and turned him to his side.
Me too, i got the red flag at the mural, but didnt think about Odin. In the myths we all think about loki changing appereance, so we dont remember that Odin can do that too.
The voice actor does such a great job as imposter Odin and real Týr, there’s a shift in his tone in both performances and the real one sounds so genuinely wise compared to the fake one
Fake Tyr sounds like a time share or MLM sales man, slick, fake emotion. Insecurities pretending confidence.
Real Tỳr is just, that calm pool. Undisturbed calm of True confidence.
Every time I hear that “and give us a pair of eyes in the enemy’s inner sanctum” line, I think to myself “you piece of shit”
I heard a curse that I like to use with that scene: “Thrice d*** you, you pox-ridden son of a mangy goat!”
After Valhalla every scene with Týr in the main game is like Odin spitting in his face
He is really petty, isn't he?
If the real Tyr had been with Kratos, Atreus and Freya Odin might as well have started waving a white flag.
@@Xehanort10kratos would have taken on thor and Tyr would have gone after Odin holding him long enough to allow the others to come help finish it.
Thor would have live mostly
*Brok gets stabbed at the end of an analytical scene.*
FatBrett: Ok, ignoring Brok's brutal death...
One brief moment you missed was right after the Alfheim scene. Atreus and Kratos brings up Kratos going in the light in the last game, and almost immediately Tyr interrupts: "You WENT into the light?! You must tell me, what did you see?!"
He almost majorly slipped there. He couldn't help himself lol
I love how no line of dialogue is wasted. It all means somthing or does something in service of the story!
I heard that every scene and every dialog, whether it's a book, a theater performance, a movie (or a game in this case) should serve at least one of three purposes, either push forward the main plot, extend arcs of characters involved, and/or add something into world building.
A good scene fulfills at least two, and a great scene does all three at once.
You can definitely see that Santa Monica did their homework, if people keep debunking GoW scenes on RUclips for years.
BABE WAKE UP FATBRETT HAS UPLOADED ANOTHER GOWR VIDEO
When I first played through Ragnarok I had no clue of Odin's deception. After playing Valhalla and seeing how awesome the true Tyr is, upon my reply of the game there's so many red flags in Odin's performance.
My reaction to 'Tyr' before the reveal: What good is a God of War that won't even fight? 😠
My reaction to 'Tyr' after the reveal: Holy sh*t! 😱
My reaction to Týr after the Valhalla DLC: Wow, now this is a God of War.
44:45 i think here Tyr is actually attempting to convince Atreus that he is better off at asgard. Trying to say: well, look how they treat you, they all turned on you, but Odin didnt, he counceled you and even allowed you to leave without much off a fuss. It is a way for Tyr to drive a wedge between Atreus and his family.
He is also working on the other side as well, when he says "the runaway has brought this" to Kratos, he says in a way as to stoke Kratos anger, to remind him that he should be angry at Atreus
And it may have worked, if not for Kratos' wisdom and genuine love for his son. A selfish father would have lashed out and pushed his son away, a caring father knew that acceptance was the only way forward, and then to deal with the problem together.
Watching these scenes back, the body language that Tyr is showing is what intrigues me the most. Seeing his arms held behind is back is especially a curious action, as it makes him seem rather confident in what he's saying, even when it's not something Tyr should be saying.
remember, Tyr is not a character, is a caricature made by someone who hates him, and I know that will get broken down like hell in the next hour of video
I like to imagine that Odin didn’t realize he'd have to keep up the Tyr act after the escape from the cave. He was totally unprepared to keep up this illusion for longer than a day or two
I love how the actual Tyr is just some chill god who gave Kratos a theraphy session
While watching this excellent video, I noticed that during "Tyr's" speech about leading the group to Asgard, Freya looked around at everyone like, "What is this guy talking about?" I love the detail in this game!!! It was obvious at this point that things did not add up.
One thing that I want to point out about Tyr in Svartalfheim is the question that Odin posed to Atreus; the question about Atreus' intent behind freeing him. After this question was poses and Atreus answered that he wanted answers, Odin's preformance changed to make Tyr more wise and sage-like.
I wonder if Odin's cartoonish, over the top performance is another example of his lack of self control? Tyr was a thorn in his side for so long, beloved by almost everyone, and probably inconceivable to Odin why a god of war would vouch for peace. So he can't help but be spiteful in his performance; try and portray Tyr as condescending and a coward.
týr never broke under odin, that's why the allfather tried to moke him with his performance
The scariest element of tear isn't just the lies and tales he weaves. It's his use of false empathy to manipulate those around him to get his way. He weilds it as skillfully as a swordaster holding a blade.
We look at empathy as this 'good' attribute that people should have. Never discussing how villains use it to keep us in chains.
But does Odin really have empathy? He knows how people will act based on their emotions and nature but that’s not the same thing as feeling what they feel.
In this video, it’s pointed out how Odin tries to further divide Kratos and Atreus by coming down hard on the boy after he frees Garm. Thinking that Kratos is driven by anger, and likely projecting as Odin’s reaction to his own son messing up would also be anger.
Kratos telling him and the others to knock it off showed how he doesn’t understand or empathize with Kratos at all.
Empathy is never a bad thing. It's just that people without it know how to use yours against you. Wisdom and insight are what come into play here, the ability to tell the truth from the deception.
Tear? Seriously?
He doesn't have empathy.
He mimics empathy through surface level sympathy and then uses others' empathy for his own benefit.
It’s interesting that when he finally listens to Atreus and kratos, he responds to Atreus’ agency and Kratos’ aggression, which are both things he tries to amplify later in the game
i spent my second playthrough with my eyes glued to Tyr whenever he was in frame, but this video is a whole different level of character analysis... well done
"Hey, Tyr If you were trapped in that cell for 109 winters how comes you were able to grow food in all that time?"
*Odin sweating bullets*
For all the time I noticed what Odin was all about during his time in Tyr's mode, the broom closet is something I never thought about, and now that you mentioned it, I was like "Odin, you sneaky mf"
At 45:37 I saw it as Kratos briefly held Mimir in front of Tyr but quickly offered it to Freya instead as if to tell the audience that Kratos dislikes/distrusts Tyr.
"Descryptions of hard tack says it is as hard as a brick but with slightly less flavour."
I had to literally pause the video to stop laughing and then rewind the next 5 minutes cause i was distracted LMAO
Bricks don't even come with flavor and hardtack somehow has LESS??
When I first played Ragnarok, I thought it was way too easy to free Tyr. No wonder!
11:08 i love this scene for kratos. When tyr says he has his question kratos looks in acknowledgment and when the question is asked he looks to atreus because it wasn't kratos who really wanted to free him and is looking for atreus to actually answer instead of kratos taking control of the situation
This is definitely a great analysis of Odin's disguise as Týr, and the clues of how Odin has hinted at his true identity. When looking back, it feels so obvious that Odin was disguised as Týr, but seeing this the 1st time around, Odin made it so that no one would question it. Even Mimir stated after the reveal that he couldn't believe that Odin was able to take advantage of the good guys to fool them for so long. Another interesting clue to the fake Týr is how Týr's name is spelled differently when it's the fake Týr. It's spelled Tyr rather than spelled Týr.
I really love the detail that when they're in Alfheim, Atreus says that they don't have a choice when it comes to fighting the elves, and Tyr responds with "There's always a choice"
And in the end of the game, when they beat Odin, the roles are reversed. Odin says that he had no choice to killing his own son and Atreus tells him the same thing he did to Atreus.
It’s my personal headcanon that Brok’s biggest hint about “Tyr” before their confrontation was “Tyr”’s cooking. I refuse to believe Odin had a competent enough disguise to not cook like an Aesir king instead of a broken prisoner
I would to change the tytle's name to Tyr. The odin is named Tyr in the game. Many GoW hardcore fans could realize that the video is about Odin and few players that play GoWR now wouldn't know anything (they still don't get anything spoiled from the title). It just could be more interesting to me, if there was not the "A Deconstruction of Villainy" part. Ok i can see that i am really nitpicking here.
Great video as always.
What a damm timing for this essay, just as I finished Valhalla like days ago and started realizing just how amazing characters the Tyrs really are lmao
“That his shit stinks” absolutely love that line. Also your analysis videos are fucking brilliant and I hope you never stop!
Ngl i love the fact that in a world full of really deep characters worth of analysis the one we didn't look much into during the story is essential the "Caricature" of the god of war
Odin's deception, unintentionally, rides off of the fact thag no one truly knew how wise Tyr was. In Valhalla he is a wise person above all others, able to look at someone an tell them that despite all thwir darkest flaws, they can improve. He speaks to everyone like he's been their best friend for a lifetime. No one can ever know what that's like, especially not Odin. And so they just expect for Tyr to speak like a regular, if slightly more enlightened, person. If even one of the characters really knew what Tyr was like, Odin would be screwed from minute one.
Love Bret's skill at putting adds everyplace he says "let's watch that now". Gets em everytime. Well played Sr.
You’ve updated the ending music , and sure, it sounds pretty good! … But what we really need is the glorious return of the WII OUTRO
I love brok bringing out celebratory "we just killed one of the enemies biggest tools" drinks right in front of odin is actually both very in character for brok and exceedingly funny.
I happened to notice early on that whenever he was speaking, the subtitles called him "Tyr" but whenever anyone else was talking about him, it was written properly (i.e, "Týr.") It could not be unseen after that, lol.
Drove me nuts until the Big Reveal, paid off though!
This is crazy because I never thought of Odin with all of his inconsistencies in his actions. This video definitely sheds a different light on how desperate he was willing to go to get knowledge.
Real Tyr is the family therapist the Sparda boys DESPERATELY need.
Also, the difference between Odin and Kratos when it comes to prophecy; Odin obsesses over it and is eventually destroyed by it, while Kratos doesn't care and is thus unaffected.
Another banger. I love these breakdowns. Something funny ive found is that all the ragnarok hate vidoes relesed almost immediately after release week, while thoughtfully edited examinations of the games story and characters are still releasing now and are way more carefully crafted. Good work
6:40 on a rewatch, ohh man you just know Odin felt good standing up above Kratos like that. He can't help but let it show on his face.
I just noticed that a section of Brok's funeral lament plays in the breakfast scene where Tyr and Brok talk for the first time, which supports my idea that the "I remember food tasting better" comment after asking for hardtack is what made Brok start watching and keeping track of what Tyr says and does, which leads to Brok's death
This is what ive been looking for, thank you for creating this type of video!
That analysis about Odin not knowing kratos was going to vanahiem I never caught that and I've played this game countless times. Awesome video
You out did yourself once again... Amazing video brother!
i love these videos
this game was truly a masterpiece, love your videos hope we can see other games being featured in the future
Great Video! Also Props to Ben Prendergast.
This Guy plays both Tyr & Týr so good.
Playing the same Character in 2 different Ways in always very interesting to me.
Tyr bumping passed Atreus to look at the prophecy is what made me really suspect something. That little moment of wanton disrespect is something you’d not expect from “Tyr”
Also he bumps into him on the exact same side that he's missing an eye.
Lol, speaking of hard tack...
My partner tried making some, as a fun sort of project. You weren't kidding about it being as hard as a brick. We dropped one on the floor in the kitchen. Not only did it sound like dropping a hockey puck, it dented the hardwood floor as well.
Another slip up i noticed when playing the game for the second time. when atreus offers Tyr a spear to defend himself, he says "A walking stick?" When we go to asgard for the first time as atreus, we can see odin using his spear as a walking stick. Apparently odin does this to catch his enemies off guard, like when he killed Thor and Groa.
Also, in the very first scene, when Kratos pulls the rope around Tyr's neck to cut it, it makes it look like Tyr is being hung, which is probably a parallel to Odin, who hung himself from the branches of the world tree to gain knowledge.
Words do not describe how happy I was to find that the real Tyr is still alive out there post campaign. For some reason I thought the real one was dead after the big reveal, and it depressed me a little that we would never get to know him as a character beyond the stories we’ve heard about him
I think kratos kinda knew something was slightly off when he went to hand mimic to "tyr" and handed off to freya as he trusted her more. Kratos also has been constantly watching him from the start. I'm confident he had a feeling he was not to be trusted and he, ultimately and unfortunately, was right
Omg I was here 26 minutes after it uploaded I didn't realize that. I love these videos so much, they're a great thing to have on the background
Brok’s Death made Sindri shed a Tyr
Zesty could make Tyr list about saddest moments in GoW.
The puns will ease the pain.
Perfect, just a perfect cover up of the plot. The first thing I though to myself after I got over the 'shock' was wanting to know all that Odin did as Tyr, and you Sir brought me the peace of mind I needed. This game for me, is by far the best game ever in all my 14 years of gaming. It's astonishing! Thanks for the video!
What makes me mad at Odin the most is how he portrays Tyr as weak. We see the real Tyr is strong and willing to stand up to Odin. Mimir nailed on the head when he said Odin was making a mockery of him.
I won’t forget the experience when Brok started questioning him and then it slowly dawning on me and finally getting it right as Odin reached for the blade. I can’t remember the last time a twist really had me.