I’m not sure how so many God of War fans didn’t understand why Kratos wouldn’t accept Odins deal. He made a deal before, which got his family killed, and all the stories he’s heard of Odin are “don’t trust him”
also, im pretty sure Kratos saw the way Odin treated his dead son and grandsons Kratos knows the pain of losing a child in one of the worst ways possible, and for Odin to just say "self-defence. they were pretty useless anyway" will be the most visible red flag for Kratos (side note but I love how in the first scene with Odin, Kratos places his hand on his axe when Odin is near Atreus but removes it when Odin backs off)
The way Odin talks about Baldur, calling him his best tracker, chaser, but never his son in his first scene was a great way to show us his true feelings. Despite being called The AllFather, Odin was anything but a father to his people.
[spoiler warning] this is reinforced in the scene where he kills thor. when thor refuses an order that odin gave him, odin lashed out with "are you broken?". looked at his very own flesh and blood as if they were tools
@@originaljoke4502 yeah he kinda says the same during the heimdall scene, he tells Thor what are you doing dismissed go. And I just want to say that on this exact video you don’t need to add the spoiler warning, it’s kinda showed in the video and this is kinda a post story content,
Before you ever meet Odin he’s set up as this cruel master manipulator. Then you meet him and he’s this kind friendly man. That’s how these type of people operate in the real world. Not a cartoonish villain, but a charming person who you can fall victim too despite everything. Amazing casting. Amazing game.
So true. I've known people like this, where their terrible reputation proceeds them and when you meet them they are just so cool and you stop and go "Oh wow, I guess everyone was wrong somehow!" Until you realize that that's just part of their game.
True. It seriously gave me flashbacks to some of the sociopaths I’ve had in my life - their charm and charisma really makes you want to believe that they care about you, but they don’t. Everyone around them is there to serve some sort of selfish purpose. The most fucked up thing is that they prefer the people around them be useful - but broken enough to never stand up to them. Basically everything that Odin is, they wrote him well.
True. It seriously gave me flashbacks to some of the sociopaths I’ve had in my life - their charm and charisma really makes you want to believe that they care about you, but they don’t. Everyone around them is there to serve some sort of selfish purpose. The most fucked up thing is that they prefer the people around them be useful - but broken enough to never stand up to them. Basically everything that Odin is, they wrote him well.
It’s more sad when you realize Brok won’t even have an afterlife, he’ll just be in a blankless limbo for eternity. Sindri revived Brok just to relive that grief all over again and he knows now that it’s his fault.
When he reunited with Brok he refused to give him a handshake because his hands were filthy but he didn't hesitate to smear his hands with Brok's blood to help him.
It was all emotional manipulation to cover up a piss poor story. Imagine leaving a beloved character in that state with no chance to heal the relationship.
The perfect description of Odin is what Mimir says right at the start: "If he tells you snow is white, he's lying". Even when he's telling you the truth, it's all to serve another lie he'll tell you later, or one he has already told you. Even his appearance is a lie, seeming like a frail, elderly man, in spite of being the strongest god of the Aesir and capable of effortlessly one-shotting Thor. Everything about him, from beginning to end, is about deception and manipulation.
It is expertly written and was done by those who knows these types of people exists. I had the unfortunate experience of working for these types of people. Psychopaths of both genders. It is evil that they take advantage of at risk and homeless children and even perpetuate their sexual traumas.... (I didn't even notice it at first.) The irony is - they always lead to destruction. Bankrupting one non-profit and another... but they always manage to manipulate another to fund their sin.
Thor was weakened, I doubt he's THAT much stronger than Thor, he wouldn't need so many weapons and surrogates if that was true. But he always knew when and how to use it better than Thor ever did.
His reply is telling too: what kind of wisdom is that? He doesn't challenge the assertion, he challenges its utility, and he plays as though its nonsense, without saying as much. His crime family empire runs like a military unit with pieces that each have a clear role but its dressed as a domestic dynasty. He wears his lies as truths every moment because no one except him matters.
What strikes me about Odin killing Thor isn’t that he did, but that he did it so quick. No thought, no deliberation, no hesitance. Thor had one moment of defiance, just one, and that was enough for Odin to instantly want his own son dead.
Yeah. It's so sad. It's honestly just really so telling about how he feels about him. If he wasn't doing EXACTLY what he wanted? Disposable. And his words are just total shit. "I didn't want this." No, this is exactly what you wanted dude. You know how I know? Because you *chose to do it.* Why did you do it if you did not really want it? Huh? Total blatant lie lol.
Something I noticed is whenever he's in trouble (like being threatened or whatever) he IMMEDIATELY tries to talk his way out of it, for example Freya has him in a binding spell and the first thing he tries to do to get out of it was smooth talk her about her wings and call her "Frigg" to keep trying to play her cuz he thought she'd fall for it. Unfortunately for him Freya knows better and wasn't buying it, and THEN he uses magic to escape temporarily. By the end Atreus basically had him by the balls with that mask being so close to the "answers" so he does everything he can to try and make Atreus do what he wants. What a really cool way to write Odin, and what a fuggin awesome performance from Richard Schiff too
Let's never forget that Odin also had his "guest" spawn where: 1) Heimdall would feel the need to stop him, as he looks like an intruder, so Odin could swoop in and look like the reasonable one 2) Atreus would need to climb up a trecherous wall, presumably to either die and no longer be a problem or to "prove himself" and therefore "win" Odoin's respect
yeah odins like "you are my guest." but then has the bird tp him outside the giant ass wall like "nah you're not welcome" Heimdall even says something along those lines when Atreus meets him
No because that whole part of the story pissed me off. He could've very easily had teleported atreus right next to him but decided to teleport him far away so that he could have atreus prove himself to him and be able to manipulate atreus using heimdall
To further the points of the Random Guy and Jason, that almost set up Atreus to meet Skjoldr, a boy his age he could bond with who told Atreus that Odin saved him. So now Atreus reached a place where he met not only one but two teens his age (Skjoldr and Thrúd) to hang out with, he received Freyr's magical sword as "a perk of the job" and Odin sent him on a journey with just the right amount of thrill and adventure to feel free right after having broken away from his then restrictive and overbearing father. All of that coupled with the fact that Odin did let him go away when Atreus decided his time in Asgard was over made it seem that maybe they were the bad guys while Odin was just a cool guy. If Atreus wasn't so focused in his mission and didn't love his father so much, he might have been seduced into truly joining Odin. If only Heimdall and Thor were friendly to Atreus, he might have lost his way but their resent to Atreus was one of the few things Odin couldn't control.
Brok, being the one to see through Odin's disguise and pretty much guaranteeing his demise, followed by Sindri being the one to kill Odin, reminds me of Galadriel's words to Frodo in Fellowship of The Ring: "Even the smallest person can change the course of the future." Odin was so concerned about the big players(Kratos, Atreus, Freya) that he didn't stop to take the little guy into account. Serves him right
Well even in myths zeus was like that,even when he was being the good guy. And the real odin sure has stories in which is a complete asshole but he also tries to manipulate others taking other forms or names, like wotan, harlequin, ect. So its fitting.
@@xzenitramx666 yeah both genuinely aren’t too different from their mythological counterparts, they are just plain evil instead of being like what was acceptable back in the day
I had this image that Odin was like Zeus, powerful and imposing but instead of using brute force he used wit. But the Odin we meet was more personable, more intelligent and conniving than I ever could imagine. Also the fact that he has a car salesman personality and talked like he knew how to do business with people but doesn't know how to build a relationship.
One thing I love about Odin's opening scene is how is contrasts so hard with Thor showing up. Kratos seems to respects Thor as a warrior: allowing him inside, placing the weapons on the table, and providing cups for the mead. He even lets Thor be the one to talk. By contrast, Odin shows up and demands attention: grabbing a chair, not waiting to be invited in, and drinking from both glasses. Kratos shows respect when it is offered; Odin steamrolls in demanding respect.
^Not to mention how with Thor, he genuinely asks ‘Can I come in?’ and actually conveys respect and manners-behavior that differs than that of his callous father. He is upfront with his intentions from the moment he comes in “knocking” and even throws a small compliment to Kratos regarding his home. Up until Odin’s arrival, Thor does not destroy and thrash about the place whatsoever, as he initially attempts to appeal to Kratos’ better nature of being ‘calm and reasonable.’ Odin, on the other hand, not only blatantly waltzes in like he owns the place but also opens with ‘You know who I am,’ thereby not simply implying that he needs no introduction, but that he be granted respect on the spot-as if he were saying ‘you know who I am, so you know to shut up and listen to me.’ The difference between how they approach Kratos in conveying that they do not wish to fight him, is that one sees Kratos as someone who can be reasoned with; the other as a monster that can only be tamed.
@@NeilTheChampion And I think that goes a long way in Kratos's eyes. He's more willing to work with Thor than Odin, because Thor is trying. It's also wild that Thor - who Odin sees as just dumb muscle - gets more respect from Odin than the top god.
Kratos' entry of Thor is kinda interesting. Despite everything Kratos was led to believe about Thor and the fact that he almost drove giants to extinction, Thor lacks genuine malice when he fights. Whereas Baldur enjoyed inflicting pain in others, Thor simply enjoys a good fight, and actually a good warrior with sharp instinct rather than an artless brute.
In Greek tradition, an invited guest is granted sacred hospitality, meaning no harm or violence will be visited upon them, even if they are an enemy. The guest is supposed to respond in kind as well. Thor was an invited guest. He only went in when given n permission, drops his weapon, offers a drink, and does not partake until his host has. Odin on the other hand barges in uninvited, drinks without being offered, and threatens his hosts.
I also love Odin's design, specifically his oversized cloak. Normally a cloak would be tailored to fit you to be comfortable but his cloak is a few sizes larger than his body, hinting that he's a lot stronger than he looks and the fact that he never actually wore it as a cloak but rather just a cape that rests on his shoulder just shows that he's confident enough to deceive you straight in your face.
Something that I think often gets overlooked is that it was Brok's reveal and subsequent death that was the turning point of Ragnarok towards Kratos' favor. However, remember that Brok doesn't have all of his soul parts and it's even shown that the Lady of the Forge cannot even perceive him due to this. Can it then not be inferred that the Giants and even the Norns also could not perceive him, and so their prophecies and predictions were going based off the assumption that he didn't exist? If Tyr(Odin) wasn't called out and discovered by Brok, and everyone just played right into his hands then I think the prophecies of Kratos dying and Atreus ending up being subjugated would have happened and Odin would have won. But since Brok did what he did, he pretty much single handedly caused a divergence in the threads of fate.
good theory, but the old man in atreus' arms with "snakes" coming out of his mouth was actually odin, he has bllood on his face, and the snakes are the soul atreus takes off of odin, and everyone thought it was kratos because of his red markings, but it was actually a bloody eyepatch.
@@dman7668 yeah, maybe the fact that kratos had that moment with draupnir and brok changed his fate, cause he was a legit good man right there, redifining his nature.
I think it was KRATOS who changed Fate cause we all know that prophecy of kratos dying would’ve been full filed if he didn’t stop fighting thor because odin would’ve saved him and gang up on him i think the minute he stopped was when it changed
Odin doesn't kill Brok because the dwarf is annoying him; it's because Brok was about to blow his cover. No one knew it was Odin, obviously, but Brok at least noticed the idiosyncracies that showed "Tyr" was working against the entire group, not for them. 1) If Tyr had a way to Asgard, he could have let the group know about it and had the conflict over and done with long before the mask was taken into account. Even if he suspected that Kratos would have done something foolish, it was irresponsible to not at least mention, "Hey, I have a path here to possible victory over this bastard, but you need to prove yourself willing to control your emotions." 2) When Tyr says he'll gather his things, Brok stomps it down immediately. Tyr literally brought nothing with him to the house but the clothes on his back and lived in a damn closet. There's nothing TO bring back. (Oops, too soon?) Odin was likely going to peace out with the mask as soon as he was out of view, and then flood the entire Realm-Between-Realms with Einherjar until not even Ratatoskr was moving. 3) Brok slapping the mask out of Tyr's hand was more a sign of admiration of Atreus, but it instantly puts Tyr on the spot. Panicking to get it back would be a dead giveaway, and now that it was out of arm's reach he'd have no way of getting it without resolving Brok's concerns (one way or another). 4) Of course, bringing up the "Loki" slip-up is the biggest giveaway. We don't see anyone else react, but it's at this point that everyone else is starting to realize something isn't right. Tyr isn't even trying to answer anymore; he turns away, to buy time for his exit strategy. Odin's manipulation of the group is no longer viable, so he makes the jump to subjugation by killing Brok and taking Atreus hostage. My favorite aspect of this encounter is what happens almost immediately after, though; Kratos growls at him to _"Stop. Moving."_ *_And he does._* After Freya leaves to attempt to save Brok, he demands of Kratos and Freyr, "I don't move, YOU don't move," in a futile grab to maintain a hold on the situation. But because of the cooperative effort of Freyr, Kratos, and Atreus, he ends up leaving empty-handed to save his own skin. He's been bested, all because of a blue, crass, presumed-stupid dwarf with an incomplete soul - a member of a race he saw fit for an eternity of slave labor and nothing else. "Of all the things..."
I still think that part of it was that he got frustrated with Brok but I think what is most important is what angered him. You kind of touched on this but what Brok did was that he dared to not play along, to fight back. Odin was already desperate and scrambling to regain control so seeing Brok, a being he saw as completely beneath him, not only resist his attempts of manipulation but do it in such a way that undermined his control over the others, completely sent him off the edge.
I love the way Brok just tears his ass apart. "Tell us about this way to Asgard. You don't got no things. Drop that mask. Stop calling him Loki." Odin is overwhelmed because Brok just pointed out four things at once, and he didn't come up with an explanation for _any_ of them.
9:37 another of these manipulation tactics odin uses in this scene is the “good cop bad cop” routine. he could have had the ravens plop atreus within asgard’s walls from the very beginning, or even right in his office. but he had atreus climb the wall with the intention of having him meet heimdall first, who we all know is a prick from the start, and then defusing the situation later when odin makes his own appearance. he offers relief with his presence.
Excellent point. I didn't like the Aesir gods that much but more you look into their personality the more you realise their characters are realistic (Heimdall being a jerk since he can read minds, Thor getting manipulated by Odin to think of himself as a "destroyer" eg)
@@jacksonholder2987 He means that Atreus willingly going to Asgard, he could've ended up anywhere of Odin's choosing. It stands to reason they must be able to at least return precisely at home when going to Asgard and Atreus could've been transported straight to Odin's side. But instead Atreus ended up on the outskirts, outside the wall and he would have met Heimdall. Odin is no fool. He knows how Heimdall is and by letting Heimdall be the a hole, Odin can come out and put Heimdall in his place, protecting Atreus and making a good impression on him.
Also odin manipulates by doing and trying everything to make atreaus go against his father by being more accepting to atreaus than kratos was to appear trustworthy. He also defies expectations because kratos thinks all gods are deceitful and untrustworthy for a good reason and teaches that to his son. Odin sees that and tries to defies that expectation by being diplomatic and gives atreatus everything he needs and wants that would benefit odin
Something I noticed about Odin is that he is addicted to viewing himself as a Victim, a Victim of Fate, a Victim of Circumstance, no matter what he has to be the one wronged, that way he can justify his actions to himself. Its most prominently shown just before his death; he tries to blame Atreus for the destruction of his family and realm when his actions caused both, but what does he say in return? "It wasn't my fault, I had no choice." In a way he's so good at lying he lies even to himself.
The narcissist mantra: That didnt happen. And if it did, it wasnt a big deal And if it was, its not that bad And if it is, it's not my fault And if it was, i didnt mean it And if i did, you deserved it.
You're right, Odin is very good at playing the victim. He is always quick to blame others for his own mistakes, and he never takes responsibility for his actions. This is a classic narcissistic trait, and it is one of the things that makes Odin such a dangerous and manipulative character. Odin's need to see himself as a victim is rooted in his deep-seated insecurity. He is a god, but he is also a mortal man. He knows that he is not perfect, and he is afraid of being exposed. So he projects his insecurities onto others, and he tries to make himself look good by making them look bad. This is why Odin is so quick to blame Atreus for the destruction of his family and realm. He knows that he is responsible for what happened, but he can't admit it to himself. So he blames Atreus, and he tries to make Atreus feel guilty. Odin is a master manipulator, and he is very good at getting people to see things his way. But he is also a very flawed character, and his need to see himself as a victim is one of his biggest flaws. It is a flaw that will eventually lead to his downfall. I think it's interesting that you mentioned that Odin is so good at lying that he lies to himself. This is a very perceptive observation. Odin is so used to lying to others that he has become very good at lying to himself. He has convinced himself that he is always right, and that he is always the victim. This is a dangerous delusion, and it is one of the things that makes Odin such a dangerous enemy. I think Odin's story is a cautionary tale about the dangers of narcissism. Odin is a powerful god, but he is also a very flawed man. His need to see himself as a victim has led him to make terrible mistakes, and it has ultimately led to his downfall. We can all learn from Odin's story, and we can all be careful not to let our own narcissistic tendencies lead us down the same path.
@@ZdenekMicke69Not all narcissism or just narcissism. Odin is specifically a malignant narcissist, which most sufferers of NPD are not. All narcissists are deep down terrified of being shamed, and put on their facade as a means to hide their own insecurities from themselves and others so as to never feel the pain of shame. But only a few will deal with that fear not just by deflecting criticism onto other people or things or factors regardless of whether that criticism is justified or not (and that caveat is important, because not taking blame for something that genuinely isn't your fault is a fine and healthy trait), but ALSO by proactively and obsessively going out of their way to degrade and manipulate others. Only a few will commit to trying to dominate everyone around them and undermine other people's self-esteem to ensure they can never be put in a vulnerable position or one-upped. Only a few, in short, are anything like this Odin. That's why not every narcissist is a cult leader, and often, they're just regular people who happen to hide their insecurities behind false confidence and deflecting criticism.
@@ZdenekMicke69well said mate, and a very correct description of the All-Fucker, I really wish we had gotten a line from either Kratos or Freya during the final battle telling Odin that he can’t talk his way out of this one.
"I regret many things, killing you will not be one of them." Kratos just straight-up told him. He has made peace with his killing. He knows that now, he only kills because it is necessary or because it is the right thing to do. Odin thinks that Kratos is reverting to his old self, which scares him. He desperately cries, "I am in control here" because he desperately wants that to be true.
@_under_a_bridge3454 Not really. Athena's domain, wisdom, is released and unattended after she dies in GoW 2. That's why everybody acts like an idiot in GoW 3. Ares' domain is quickly taken over by Kratos at the end of GoW 1 so we don't see the repercussions of his domain being left unattended.
What gutted me most is how sympathetic Thor becomes. You watch him struggle to change for his wife and daughter, regretful of how Thrud is his last child and how he still struggles with his alcoholism, and how he bears the brunt of the abuse from his father. He is constantly ridiculed and made to feel small, and when he finally breaks out of Odin’s control to defend his family and forge a better path for them by Kratos’s (and in some way, Atreus’s) prompting, Odin kills him. I love Brok and I know that was supposed to be the emotional motivation to the characters and player to kill Odin, but Thor’s death just added to the fire. I wanted so badly to see Thor win at something finally. I was crushed when he died.
I think Thor is very sympathetic right from the start. Despite his bombastic entrance and threatening demeanor, he’s actually polite. Asks if he can come in, compliments the place, offers mead and wants to have a discussion. Even if he’s doing it out of obligation, it’s a stark contrast to Odin, who acts like a dick right away. Thor even has a legit reason to hate Kratos, the guy killed his sons.
@@shmekelfreckles8157 I think deep down Thor know Kratos is not the blame Odis is. But like most of the abused he couldnt channel his anger towards his abuser anyone but Odin. In first fight Kratos simply tells him he did not want to kill his sons they struck first and didnt wish to fight his brother too. They were on their path to death cause of their allfather not kratos
I know it would have gone against Kratos' whole character arc of the last 2 games, but after Brok and Thor, I was really itching to give him the God of War 3 treatment.
Broks' death wasn't "meaningless" to odin. Brok was a wrench in his gears. He had the group eating out of his hand as tyr and was just inches away from victory... and Brok put it to a grinding halt by calling out multiple holes in his manipulation. I noticed from Odin that soon as anything goes against his planning, his first reaction is to panic. When he found out gryla lied to him, he was just about broke character as Tyr. When sif continued to question and call him out, he would spit out rushed panicked excuses. When brok halted his taking of the mask. And also when thor refused him, and then he turned to see thrud witness his murder and he immediately jumped to a very half assed panicked blame, pointing to try to keep thrud from turning against him. When he's stuck fighting kratos and then freya comes in, he quickly tries to manipulate her. He is the quintessential "planner who starts breaking down when he has to improvise"
Exactly. Odin could have tried to keep up the charade and go for a "Oh it's something in my temple on Midgard", but he always panics with any amount of "defiance"
it's Groa, not Gryla. Groa is the prophet of Ragnarok who gets killed by Odin; and Gryla is the grandmother of Angrboda and one of the bosses of the game.
Acting in panic doesn't mean it was of meaning, as fatbrett says, he lost control and panicked and that led him to killing Brok. Don't you think if he had just pushed him away/come up with an excuse that his death (by Sindri filled with vengeance) could have been avoided? Sure if Brok would have lived he would help Kratos and the others but at least Sindri wouldn't kill him out of spite.
I think here was he already pissed and got sloppy because moments earlier Atreus was gonna give him the mask, but he got sent away due to Thor almost killing him. Like he said, killing Brok wasn’t really part of his plan
What makes Brok’s death even more heartbreaking is the compassion involved. Kratos’ kindness when he let him bless the spear, gave Brok the confidence to stand up to Odin and confide in his friends. Which is something that wouldn’t have happened if Brok was still angry with Sindri after discovering he was revived. Brok felt loved by those close to him and he ended up sacrificing his live to save them.
That is easily the best moment in the game for me. Brok getting respect and friendship and Kratos delivering a true bro moment and showing a lot of growth.
I found it funny when players initially didn't consider Odin to be particularly threatening or ominous as a villain. But to me, he was terrifying right out of the gate. He reminded me of every dictator and cult leader I've ever read about, and every abuser I've ever known. The way he was written, directed, and performed was nothing short of genius.
Because Zeus is just overwhelmingly menacing and proved how much of a threat he is to the titans even just by himself so seeing Odin as an old, frail man who usually rely on magic to fight back is not something that fans would be scared off
@@Pauli-dg2yv And the writers did the right thing to describe the all father this way, to be honest I wouldn't want to have a second Zeus with the same personality and form. And I don't think a lot of fans would like this neither.
I think someone can't be properly frightened of a manipulator like Odin unless they've been a victim of one, or at least have learned from such a victim. One of his key manipulation moves is to seem harmless to someone unprepared for someone like him, and a lot of the _players_ of the game were in that position.
Only problem I have is we didn’t really get enough of Odins true colours, he killed brok and you don’t see him till the final boss and then it’s over after that, you he had some narrative influence with having the midguardians as human shields but we didn’t fully get to see the all-knowing all-powerful god that everyone fears, I loved that when you first see him you think “this isn’t Odin, he’s too small and skinny” but it’s deception and his villainy is within his words, Thor was his muscle but tbh with how much magical knowledge he had, I was expecting the final fight to be a lot more chaotic than what it was and just more destruction from him
One thing I think is critical to note is how the Norns discuss how prophecy (Or the lack thereof) works. They state that there is no actual reading the future, just predictions based on an understanding of each person's character, which they even refer to as archetypes. In it, they accidentally give a clue to how prophecy is subverted, which is basically "Stop acting like an archetype, and start acting like a person". Odin could never do that, which is why, no matter what, his downfall was guaranteed.
I don't think it was even an accidental clue. They outright _tell_ Kratos how to avoid his prophesied fate. They just didn't think he'd actually be able to do it
That, I believe, is a huge part of every god Kratos fights in GOW 2018 and Ragnarok. Baulder could have walked away at the end and not continued to attack Freya, thus making Kratos not kill him. Heimdal could have just shut up, or stopped being a jerk, not said anything about Atreas, and Kratos would have left him alone (with both arms intact even). Thor could have stood up to Odin long ago and might have survived, but he changed too late and left himself open to Odin. And Odin himself could have stopped his singlemindedness about knowledge and Atreas would have spared him. Modi and Magi both were both little shits but we didn't know enough about them at the time, maybe they could have survived too. Every god that died refused to change (and with Thor, refused to change in time) and ended up dying. Kratos would have died instead, but he changed who he was, and took back things he said to Atreas and this is what ultimately saved him.
I've been saying this since the game came out: everyone in the voice cast is great, but Richard Schiff as Odin is just on another level. His ability to disarm you with his warm, friendly demeanor only to turn on a dime into a ruthless tyrant is absolutely MASTERFUL.
I always hated how they did his character in the Lost World letting the T-Rex rip him in half after he saved the entire cast. Idk I just thought it was a shitty way to let him go out. I wish they would have let him survive by the army that was hunting the Rex showing up and running them off or some how.
Can we talk about Odin's voice actor for a second? He does a DAMN good job making Odin seem like this likeable smooth talker, which contrasts beautifully with his hateable, deceitful personality.
I accidentally spoiled myself with the Tyr twist, but it actually made me pay closer attention to what he said and did throughout the game. Knowing the twist recontextualizes so much of the game. In the scene where Kratos, Atreus, and Tyr find Groa’s prophecy, its easy to miss but Tyr actually walks forward saying “Groa lied…” with a dumbstruck look and inconsiderately shoves Atreus out of the way to get closer, one of the most out of character things the gentle Tyr could do. Knowing the twist, to me that was the biggest hints that it’s actually Odin, shocked about his own fate.
exactly when i first saw that scene i kinda brushed it off as "oh hes just so big maybe he didnt realize he nudged him" but when that twist was revealed i went back and watched all of the scenes with him and yeah.. that one stood out like crazy
Knowing it, and watching the cutscenes again, I can pick out all the passive-aggressiveness in him, because his ego simply can't bear that much injury.
@@Shtummyyy He might not have actually realized he shoved Atreus, because Odin is actually blind in that eye. He forgot that he had to pretend he had two working eyes as Tyr.
One of my favorite little details is at 17:05, Odin pushes Thor to drink even though he's clearly trying to be sober. Obviously Odin wouldn't want a sober Thor because he'd be even easier to manipulate if he was drunk. Even how Odin remarks "you're no fun anymore". Basically Odin lost some control over Thor and he knows it, which is likely why he treats him so harshly now that he is sober.
Would explain why he has so much disdain for Sif as well. She encourages Thor to be sober, to stand up to Odin, and Odin's probably not a super big fan of that.
And how he nailed to Sif that Thor started drinking again on his own volition while in fact he subtly chastised Thor for being sober. Not sure if he was intentional with that but clearly a drunk Thor would question less while Odin got ever closer to his goal with Loki.
It is similar in another game, Odin's Sphere. *Spoilers for Odin's Sphere* In it Odin really has no affection for Gwendolyn, favoring her sister over her. But once Gwendolyn gives Odin a magic ring that was gifted to her by her husband, he showers her with praise about being the best daughter in the world. Odin only ever sees her as a tool and when she does what he likes, is when he changes his tune. Odin's praise and love in both games are conditional. It is in contrast with her husband, Oswald, who loves her unconditionally, even after she hurt him and betrayed his trust by giving the ring away.
don't forget how odin's always got that 'I'm really very busy but I can make time for you' demeanor... as the all father he's observed just how much people seek/desire his time and attention. He's weaponized being an absentee father to his advantage.
He didn't murder brok because he found him annoying, he murdered brok because of panic. He never thought that his almost perfect guise would start to unravel and killed him because he saw no other choice out of panic. You're right that it doesn't help him in anyway though.
It's also an attempt to regain control. He knows his deception is on the verge of falling apart, so he makes a choice: blow his cover himself. By blowing the cover on his own terms, he tricks himself into believing that he is still in control
All though he did it because of panic, Brok's death does serve a purpose for Odin. No one was able to see through his manipulation except Brok and possibly he could never manipulate Brok. Everyone in the room including Kratos was convinced by Tyr's(Odin's) vague answer about why he withheld Asgard. Brok though, threw in questions after questions. Brok shattered Odin's entire foundation of manipulation and control. In Odin's view at that moment Brok was the biggest threat, not Kratos, or Atreus or Freya.
19:35 his simple "No," is extremely in line with what we know about Spartan culture. Just as a for instance: Philip sent a message to the Spartans saying “If I invade Lakonia you will be destroyed, never to rise again.” The Spartans replied with one word, “If.”
17:00 Kratos is the perfect counter to Odin. He can't be overpowered. And he most definitely can't be manipulated. Especially by any God. He has way too much history with being manipulated by Gods to trust any enough to play along. Edit: to show how good of manipulator Odin is, another thing to note is if you look in Kratos' journal Odin almost got Kratos. Kratos admits he considered agreeing with Odin and taking the deal, But turned it down for Freya's sake.
@@obblivionkr what? If he accepted the first deal there would be no need to bring out a fake Tyr, the story would've simply not happened had he convinced Kratos. Kratos declining set his sights on Atreus and controlling both of them through him.
@@Raymander97 The game straight up tells you that the whole conversation was a façade just so that Odin would have a chat with Atreus, so yes Odin had already planed on Kratos refusing the deal.
@@chavaz06 you are actually wrong, the fight with Thor was a facade, to keep Kratos busy, not the initial deal. If it worked with Kratos, it worked, if not he still had Atreus to convince of his "good intentions"
On the topic of Odin lashing out when he feels his control is slipping, a good amount of Mimir's stories from last game fit the bill as well. Skaði, Starkaðr, Hrimthur, Thrym, Tyr, Freya, all were individuals who either denied or threatened Odin's overall control, leading him to act against them, harshly
Agreed. And a lot of people, especially the haters, seem to forget - whether purposefully or by sheer ignorance and or stupidity - that Odin's offer of 'peace' to Kratos included 'Keeping Freya off his back'. Anyone who's paid attention to the stories in 2018, as told to us by Mimir, knows that Odin never does anything without purpose, and ruins those who try to stand against him. In the case of Freya, he bound her to Midgard, metaphorically, emotionally, what-have-you, kept her from her home-realm, took away her Valkyrie wings, and turned their son, Baldur, into a monster. "Keep Freya off your back..." Those words made me shudder. Kratos didn't want Freya harmed, and accepting Odin's peace offer would have meant Odin would have done something bad to Freya. Maybe, just maybe, he would have killed her.
@@cult_of_odin No, I don't think he would. Kratos is not stupid, he's been down the road of being manipulated by a god before, why do it again, even for a supposed peace?
I feel Odin and Kratos are great contrasts to each other. Kratos is brusque, straightforward and stoic and is a nearly unmatched warrior. He is tall, intimidating and physically strong while having no desire for control, only to make sure his family and friends are safe. It's always easy to tell from Kratos and Atreus's interactions that they are father and son and they deeply care about each other, despite the difficulties and strains in their relationship. Throughout the game, Kratos tries to keep Atreus close, which unfortunately plays a factor in driving him away. When Atreus freed Garm, Kratos sensed Atreus's regret and helped him to remedy his terrible decision while acknowledging his faults at being a father recently. Despite Kratos's stoicism and bluntness, he genuinely cares for others, including Sindri, Freya, and Brok, and was devastated by Brok's death at Odin's hands. He learned to seek justice rather than vengeance and value the lives of others, friend or foe, such was when he gave Heimdall a chance to live (which unfortunately didn't work out) and telling Thor he can change instead of finishing him off. At the end, instead of holding onto Atreus as he had, Kratos decides to let him go so he can depart on his own journey, showing his willingness to let his son make his own choices. Kratos was a warrior who grew as a father and a man, proving that he could become better. Odin is soft-spoken, chatty and expressive, a skilled magic user and a master manipulator. He appears as a friendly and charming grandfather to hide his obsessive desire for control and answers, no matter what lines he has to cross. When you look at Odin's interactions with Thor and Heimdall as well as mentioning Baldur at the start, he speaks to them like they're lackeys under his command rather than his sons: as Brett said, he treats them like tools at his disposal rather than his own family. After Atreus frees Garm, Odin lets him leave on his own and does nothing to help Atreus fix his mistake. Unlike Kratos, Odin had no value for anyone's life other than his own, shown when he didn't mourn Baldur nor Heimdall, his own sons and regarded killing Brok as a 'bargain' for Heimdall's death. Odin didn't care about justice, family or stability, only control: even his desire for answers were to help him gain control over his fate. He constantly blames others for his choices and takes no responsibility for them, claiming he didn't have a choice when he's confronted with them. At the end, when Thor refused to kill Kratos during Ragnarok, Odin killed him without any form of hesitation. This showed his unwillingness to let Thor be his own person and break away from his control: Odin's obsession and disregard for others was so great that he'd rather see Thor dead rather than be his own man. He was a slave to his paranoia and obsession for control, leaving him unable to move on and become better. In the end, he suffered the fate he had long feared: dying and not going to an afterlife.
@@gamingfy5557 Yeah, let’s not forget that. He imprisoned and tortured his own son for going against him and advocating for peace instead of wiping out the Giants like Thor did. Then instead of killing him, he exploited Tÿr’s likeness both to mock him by pretending he’s a coward instead of a man of principle and peace, and to trick those who would ally with him into falling for his lies all over again.
Something I really enjoy with the first loki rift scene is that atreus’ eyes glow green. Green usually symbolise greed, villainy and mischief. I feel that this kinda shows how atreus is feeling drawn to both the mask and the rift, and how the opportunity for infinite knowledge is tempting him.
And he is tempted by that at the very end of the game after fighting Odin in his first phase: he has the mask and Odin invites him to look into the rift like they didn't fight just moments ago while Kratos allows him to make a choice in which ends up destroying the mask.
Green also represents creation. Look outside at the plants. It's a color of life, hence when Atreus looks at the source of creation, the source of all birth, his eyes go green.
I love how Odin is such a good liar that he can lie by telling the truth sometimes. The whole part about ''I don't know where I go, when I go''? You can see how that's a mostly truthful answer to Atreus, because he doesn't have a higher being lording over him that gives him meaning like Gods do. But, he conveniently leaves out the rest about the rift, that he thinks it give him control, control over everything through knowledge of everything: ''I HAVE to know what happens next!'' He is such a tricky individual in the way he can serve you a rotten lie, but also a mixture of honesty and deception. That's what even makes him scarier than Thor, god of Thunder.
My own personal head canon is that brok is the reason the prophecy was averted, unless my memory is wrong brok doesn’t show up on a single shrine, when even kratos does, is it possible getting Odin to reveal himself is what saved kratos life? Think about it, without him revealing fake tyr they would’ve gone to Asgard and it would’ve been a trap, they probably all would’ve died.
Also I don’t think he showed up on the shrines because of his missing piece of his soul, maybe the giants couldn’t register him in their visions because he wasn’t a full being? Maybe I’m completely wrong who knows.
There's also a theory that the lack of this missing part of Brok's soul is what makes him immune from a supposed influence generated by Odin's magical disguise.
I don’t think the prophecy was averted, just that whoever made those prophetic murals misinterpreted the future. Kratos specifically mentions how a Greek oracle assisted Kratos in overthrowing Ares, her having seen that the god of war would destroy Olympus. However, Kratos later becomes the god of war, fulfilling prophecy himself. In GoW Ragnarok, the prophecy seems to suggest Tyr, holding his spear and Gjallarhorn, would lead the armies against Odin. Again, we see that Kratos and his Draupnir spear are actually leading the war. Another prophetic mural also sees Kratos’ soul leaving his body as he dies in Atreus’ arms, but instead of him, the exact same scene plays out with Odin instead. EDIT: I just remembered, another mural thing shows Surtr and Sinmara combining to form Ragnarok, which doesn’t happen that way.
25:01 you can hear the music shift from heroic and hopeful to almost sinister when Brok begins to question “Tyr’s” intentions. You feel like something bad is about to happen but then Odin soothes those worries with veiled words and reassurance which changes the music too. then Brok intervenes and suddenly everything goes downhill. The music calms as the tension builds and then suddenly explodes into a horrible crescendo when the mask finally slips off and Odin murders Brok. I thought this was an amazing use of audio to set a scene and to demonstrate just how good of a manipulator Odin is.
I agree with the build up, the changes of tones in the music and the build up of tension worked perfectly. But something felt off with the music when Brok got knifed. It sounded like something that would be played for a big unexpected event, but not necessarily a sad one. Tbh, at this point I thought that Brok's agressive questioning would bring Tyr to go nuts for a "you wanted the northern god of war? I'll show you the northern god of war" moment. I was really hyped by the idea of Tyr's participation in their battle against Odin wince his introduction and thought this was the moment he'll show his true self. It was even suggested in the beginning of the scene when Tyr talks about the fact that he's been useless but now he's going to help. I was expecting a moment of rage coming out of him and maybe hitting Brok without killing him and to me the music felt exactly like that's what would happen. But I was deceived. Don't get me wrong, I love the way things turned out. The sound at this specific scene just felt off to me, and after reading your comment I wanted to share these thoughts with you :) Have a good one
@@kevan1206 Yea seeing the broken Tyr know of to being a more silent rage person than before would've been awesome to witness. Also the during ragnarok and seeing the other towers get some of their people through before being destroyed.
@@supershifter2862 yup ! I also heard the full OST before playing the whole game. I was mindblown by the "Raganrök" track. Felt like so much is at stake. Loved the way they used the song the whole fighting in Asgard sequence, but I felt like it missed the "final decisive outcome" where Kratos or Atreus would have to make an epic choice in attempt to save Kratos or accept he's supposed to die. It lacked a scene with the song being played where we see the protagonist unsure then taking the decision that will seal their fate. It would have had that much weight after the fact that the song was played when Kratos meets the Norns. Again, I absolutely adore the story the way they've told it, that's just a few things I was anticipating expecting that wasn't delivered. What an epic story though
It's great because it genuinely does sound like the kind of big buildup, "here's the plan", "let's do this" hero music we're used to from movies, shows, and other games. It tricks you just as well as Odin-Tyr's words trick the other characters in the scene until Brok interrupts.
19:10 The little detail with Kratos reaching for his axe when Odin got close to Atreus is a subtle but great display of how well characters are written in this game.
The way it all comes together at the end when you state "If Odin had not killed Brok, Odin would not have died" is brilliant. A perfect ending for a character arc, had he been better in control of himself, he would've lived even as he lost control of everything around him.
@@JimmyBoy9878 oh yeah. Now that you mentioned it. He isn't used to be talked to like that despite clearly knowing that it's just Brok's personality and mannerisms. Most people in the Nine Realms talk about Odin in either sheer reverence or hatred so having someone talk to him like he's on equal footing to someone must've hurt his ego.
"I AM THE ONE IN CONTROL HERE!!!" sounds less than a thing a fluke in the script [accidentally] expanded on later and more of a precise ironic foreshadowing of well... what happens next.
I love how Odin doesn’t just manipulate the characters but also the audience. The way he manipulates Atreus really made me wonder if he was truly evil or not but then I’d have to remind myself of all the misery hes caused people. And the plot twist with him being tyr the whole time was expertly crafted. I can’t wait to replay the game and see all the things I missed in his manipulation.
the most noticable one I saw was when brok and sindri reveal they stole draupnir, you can see "tyr" get visibly mad that two lessers we're the ones to steal his treasure, even getting in sindri's way to the store room to show dominance. he then realized while he cares, tyr wouldn't, and he resets his posture in a more calm and logical posture
I ran into this same thing but when it happened it was a moment of holy crap. At one point when atreus was trying to trick him I was yelling "Oh my god how can't you tell he is playing you?" only to remember just how innocent atreus is.
Using Tyr as a disguise is also brilliant, most of the group have never met him, and the ones who have would be too distracted with the fact that he’s alive to notice how poorly his character is being acted out
The ending was soooo perfect. “They subverted their fate by being choosing the right choices at the right time” which really brings out the “we are better than this”. It’s such an amazing game with so many messages but with one final conclusion is that you always can CHOOSE to be better. God I love this game franchise.
Another thing I noticed with Odin's dressing down of Heimdall was this is a strategy I have heard mentioned in the Prince from another story. In it a duke is overly cruel and malicious to his citizens, one day the king comes to visit and sees this. The king enraged beheads the duke in front of everyone thus gaining the love of his citizens. The story concludes that the king had ordered the duke's actions to manipulate the people and had planned to kill the duke from the very beginning. Odin does a similar strategy by chewing out Heimdall for his treatment of Loki. Thus pulling Loki in while "punishing" Heimdall.
That analogy goes a little further when you think about how Odin, as Tyr, knew that the crew were building a weapon with the intention to kill Heimdall if necessary and knew that they were going to congregate their forces in Vanaheim for a bit. Meaning it's possible that Odin deliberately sent Heimdall into their path expecting them to kill him and force their hand, which led to Atreus rejoining him to help finish the mask, like he wanted.
Odin kills Thor a second after he says No. He then says to Thrud "they did this to us". Everything that happened between him and Thor made me hate Odin and Sympathize with Thor. They way he encourages Thors drinking too shows how much of a scumbag he is
Ever since his first on-screen appearance, I saw Odin as basically a godly Mafia mob boss of sorts, and everyone else as his enforcers. It was rather horrifying that someone literally seen as a king among gods had such a demeanour.
I'm glad they went this route. In the previous game Baldur made it sound like the entire forces of Asgard is one and the same but here when we finally meet that side of the cast. Instead of a family of evil villains working together for the sake of Asgard, all we see is a dysfunctional family that is too dependent or forced to depend on Odin, the major problem on everyone's mind whether they seek his approval or want to be away from him. Instead of begrudgingly hating and disliking the murderous race of gods, we pity most of them because all their problems and insecurities starts with the man in charge.
Don’t forget that at the very start Odin encouraged them to find “Tyr” when he asks them to stop looking. Odin knows they’ll do the opposite of why he says so by pretending he doesn’t want Tyr found he confirms that Tyr is alive and that they should find him. Mimir even says something like “If Odin doesn’t want us looking for him then that’s exactly what we should do.” That’s why I suspected Odin was cosplaying as Tyr as soon as I got to the part where Tyr learns about the false prophecy. Tyr seemed angry that the giants lied to Odin, but why would he? The first thought in my mind was “ok let’s see if Odin and Tyr are ever in the same room at the same time” lol
A lot of people suspected Tyr was a "bad guy", but no one predicted he was actually Odin himself (at least, most of us didn't). I thought Tyr had been broken by Odin and reluctantly agreed to spy for him in exchange for some kind of peace deal.
That was my biggest question before the the big twist. It seemed so stupid at the time. Why tell them not to look for Tyr? Of course the first thing they are going to do is look for Tyr.
I had a slightly different theory which was wrong but still kinda cool. My theory was that Odin wanted Ragnarock to happen because in the prophecy Kratos dies and Loki serves Odin or something like that. Which is why he leads them to find Tyr, and sets other events in motion like getting Heimdal to steal the moon or whatever it was so Kratos and Loki would have to follow the prophecy and shoot the arrow etc.
@@abstract5249 I was suspicious, I'd noticed Odin never had both of his ravens with him in Asgard, I'd wondered why Tyr was angry about Groa's lie, but I wasn't sure until Brok started pointing things out.
Stonehenge might not have provided clean water but it actually did help people get food. It’s a lot easier to farm crops when you have a calendar. You can keep track of the seasons more easily. You know the best time to plant certain crops, harvest, etc.
I've seen a few theories about what The Rift truly is, and while pondering if whatever was on the other side didn't have Odin's best interests at heart, like some kind of Primordial angler fish trying to lure him in as a snack, I wondered; what if this was a fragment of Ymir's spirit, or a curse by him? Ymir is the oldest being in Norse Myth, something ancient and possibly incomprehensible to understand. But what if he shared the gift of prophecy that the Jotnar did, saw Odin's avarice and cruelty, and with his dying breath, used what magic he had left to leave something behind that would torment his murderer? He tempted Odin with the one thing he knew he'd never be able to resist; all the answers to creation, and in doing so, doomed him to waste his life chasing a dream.
It's possible that the Rift is a fragment of Ymir's spirit, or a curse by him. Ymir was a powerful being, and he was also very wise. He may have seen Odin's potential for evil, and he may have created the Rift in order to tempt him and to ultimately lead to his downfall. The Rift is a mysterious place, and its true nature is unknown. It is possible that it is a gateway to another realm, or that it is a portal to the past. It is also possible that it is something else entirely. Whatever the Rift is, it is clear that it has a powerful effect on Odin. It drives him to madness, and it makes him obsessed with finding the answers to creation. This obsession ultimately leads to his downfall. Your theory that the Rift is a fragment of Ymir's spirit or a curse by him is a very plausible one. It would explain why the Rift has such a powerful effect on Odin, and it would also explain why it is so difficult for him to resist. It is also possible that the Rift is a combination of both things. It could be a fragment of Ymir's spirit that has been corrupted by evil, or it could be a curse that Ymir placed on Odin before he died. Whatever the case may be, the Rift is a powerful and dangerous force. It is something that Odin should have never meddled with, and it is something that will ultimately lead to his downfall.
Also the scene where odin speaks to kratos right after he gets the draupnir spear: "You dont really want war, do you?... I want peace as much as you do, perhaps we can find it together". Mimir then says "He's lying", to which Kratos replies "I know". Seeing how this tactic failed, Odin switches his strategy and focuses on Atreus, because he knows Atreus represents Kratos attempting to change himself and redeem his past. Kratos is still haunted by the Ghost of Sparta and he wants to change the cycle of violence and rage with Atreus, but is very protective of him. So Odin starts talking about him, Kratos weak spot, saying "That boy of ours..." He is subtly showing Kratos that he has begun manipulating Atreus and that Atreus is slipping from Kratos grasp, trying to fuel his rage until he ends up making a mistake and driving Atreus further into Odin's hands. "So clever.... kind. You sure he's yours? I kid" Then he brings up Kratos past and exploit his struggle with himself: "Do they not have metaphor in your homeland? Or rather, did they? Im sorry, thats not fair I know you're not the God you once were." He starts roasting Kratos for his past self then immediately does a 180 and says "yea my bad i know youre changing", trying to confuse kratos and catch him of guard. As you said, immediately criticize and then compliment. Once again, his tactic fails, because Kratos threatens him, at which point Odin decides to fully insult him: "And, what kind of God is that? What do you even know of Godhood.... can you even imagine that kind of love? No! You dont care about mortals. You dont care about anyone, but yourself, beyond the monster who kills without cause... is it any wonder that your boy is in no rush to come back to you?" From appealing to his desire for peace, to his desire for change, Odin now fully criticizes him, saying that Kratos has not changed and will not change, and that Kratos will destroy everything he touches until it drives his son away from him. The irony here is that that is exactly what Odin has been doing this entire time and it finally catches up to him.
This is a brilliant breakdown and all, but I'm hung up on the irony of Odin asking Kratos, "do they not have metaphor in your homeland?" when "metaphor" is an etymologically Greek term.
It might be the bias of proximity but I think Odin is solidly in the top echelon of video game villains from the past decade. For just about every reason this video covers; his relatability, his unassuming presentation, his cruelty and abuse which mirrors real life scenarios so well, and his demise. Solid job.
Oden was so well written as a manipulator he felt real. I’m sure I’m not alone in getting flashbacks of the sociopaths or narcissists I’ve dealt with in life. Oden in his big moments manipulates so well and so often with charisma it’s hard to see the holes no matter how glaring. I won’t lie finally putting the beating on him felt so cathartic.
I like the idea that Brok had suspicions about Odin as Tyr since they brought him back to the house, but didn't say anything because he wasn't sure, only to turn around and go, "OK, there are way too many issues building up now. No one is leaving this house until they get resolved" once Atreus completed the mask and got back to the house.
One thing I like about Odin is his cape. Despite physically looking like an old man, and therefore, not really intimidating, his cape is thick around the shoulders, making them look broader and stronger than they actually are, so it’s just another trick of his to manipulate people without outright saying that he is
I never noticed this until I saw this video, but Odin hinted at the reveal that he was posing as Tyr the whole time. When he mentions Tyr being broken out, he says spending time with him is punishment enough as if he knows of Tyr's newfound pacifism and that it's infuriating everyone. He also quips that Mimir never lost his sense of humor even though Mimir never cracked any jokes during the meeting at Kratos' house and most likely never did during his imprisonment.
It's so complicated to talk about since it was a fake Tyr, but within the fabricated scenario of Tyr being held prisoner in Svartalfheim, it could be assumed by Kratos and Atreus that Odin would regularly visit to torture, so it wouldn't be unbelievable for Odin to be aware of fake Tyr's pacifism.
Something brilliant was also that Odin made an entire Arc for Tyr, going from reluctant to more involved right as Atreus retrieves the mask. Even though He didn’t succeed fully his methods and motivations were really interesting
I remember thinking to myself that it was a little strange he commented on Mimir’s sense of humor, but I remember reasoning that there’s a good chance he could just listen in on their conversations anyways since he has a bunch of Ravens spread throughout the realms to spy on them. Since they’re green, I assumed he must’ve had some kind of link that just let him at least hear the random conversations they were having when they passed by the Ravens outside. I’m not going to pretend like he didn’t completely fool me otherwise though. That comment about Tyr being an insufferable prick all of a sudden flew over my head the first time.
> He also quips that Mimir never lost his sense of humor even though Mimir never cracked any jokes during the meeting at Kratos' house and most likely never did during his imprisonment. Wasn't Mimir Odin's advisor for a longass time? This seems wrong.
The scene right before the moment Odin kills Brok also plays a role in his uncontrollable reaction too. The dwarf brothers had a secret plan to get Atreus out of Asgard and never discussed it in front of Fake Tyr. Which threw Odin off his perfect plan to gain the mask and be done with the boy. He kills Brok as a way to get back at the brothers for outsmarting him. I love this deep dive into a more conniving type of villain! Thanks for all the cool work done for this video
And ironically by retaliating against the brothers he sealed his ultimate fate. Had he not killed Brok, Odin's soul wouldve simply remain inside the magic jotunn marble; trapped but alive and Sindri wouldnt have destroyed it out of revenge. Its almsot poetic how Odin really was his own worst enemy because for all the control he had over others he had none over himself
@@thehermit8618 that's the underlying theme of the game though "those who seek to avoid their fate end up sealing it instead", same happened with Freya happened with odin. Every move he made out of fear if his fate doomed him to it
This is what terrifies me about Odin. I honestly at first followed along with him. As much as the first game told me not to trust him, he started to win me over. It wasn’t till Kratos stood firm against it that I was reminded that Odin was still the villain. He makes so many promises that he honestly could keep, but still screw them all over in the end. But I honestly have to thank the writers for this, because it allowed me to see how manipulators can work. It’s not first hand and the last part doesn’t always happen, but the show, the way with words, the pulling at heartstrings… I now know what it can all look like in everyday life. How I can tell the signs.
I would actually follow him regardless of knowing the ending. His pursuit of universal truth is captivating. But all of that got tainted by some family drama and pointless, unnecessary conflict.
There were times when Atreus was talking with Odin and it left me thinking he wasn’t so bad. Richard Siff really did an amazing job selling that character.
"I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you" and " I liked you better as a drunk" were very much Sopranos inspired, and Odin himself is a mix of Tony and Carmine. Manipulative, focused, determined, fearless and very aware of the heightened stakes.
Another thing is that Odin talks to his troops like he doesnt have a total say in what they do when he isnt around. They follow his orders without question, they train according to his specifications but when Atreus shows up its all "woah! Is this what you do when I'm not around??" By feigning shock, he shows Atreus that he is just as disturbed by displays of barbarism as Atreus is, is able to retriactively avoid direct responsibility for any inexcusable acts of violence tgat Atreus may have witnessed from his forces and also show that he is the only person keeping the Aesir from being worse than they already are. He is the good guy, a bedraggled soul just trying to maintain peace and keep a handle on things. Without him everything would immediately go to shit, so Atreus shouldnt kill him.
During the Odin fight, as he was shouting "What's it all for?" I realized why Odin's villainy seemed so familiar- he had the exact same vibes as the Dwarf in the Flask, Homunculus from Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood. From motive to composure to third-act breakdown, Odin and Homunculus were the exact same type of Big Bad. And that villain type is definitely one of the most terrifying in all of fiction.
@@jaeded2391 That's...actually a really good comparison. You could probably write an entire essay on the similarities between Odin and Homunculus. Granted, I get the impression that Odin is _even more manipulative_ than Father, which frankly says something.
Odin can be also summarized with this: "When you notice an insect on the ground, do you stop it to consider it a fool? The life of an insect is so beneath you that it would be a waste of your time to even consider judging it."
9:52 It's more than that, his tricks and manipulation start before all of that. He lands him outside so that he's AWARE of the Midgardians that are outside the wall. He has him climb it himself, as part of the sunk-cost fallacy, making the challenge difficult, so seeing Odin is a reward. He has Heimdall meet him to make it sure that his first interaction with himself is a positive one. And he DELIBERATELY turns his back to him, not standing to the side, but fully turns his back to make it absolutely clear that he trusts him to not shoot him in the back.
“It’s so fascinating that the man who cares more about control than anything is undone by being unable to control himself” absolutely blew me away 28:39
Odin doesn't just kill Brok for being annoying as such. Kratos can't be manipulated through conventional means, but Odin invents a new way to manipulate him all the same. But Brok? Brok is honest, a straight shooter, tells it like he sees it. He's already the version of him he wants to be, others might not like it but that is Brok's best and truest self from his perspective. Everyone else is so focused on their own character arcs, Kratos, Mimir, Atreus, Freya, that they can't see past the end of their own nose on that one sore spot, but Brok is free of that and sees right through Tyr, even if he doesn't realise he's Odin immediately Brok constantly calls out his bullshit the entire game. He's not interested in people pleasing, he has no facade, he says what he thinks, and he sees right through people, Brok is the perfect foil to Heimdall. He's Heimdall without the aesir superiority complex, without the loyalty to Odin beat into him from birth. He's what Heimdall wants people to be and wishes he was. And Odin can't stand being presented with a person who can't be manipulated because he wants for nothing, and who basically doesn't even care that Odin exists, he shatters Odin's trumped up sense of self importance.
Its funny that in an attempt to gain control (sindri's house and the pointless murder of brok) he lost everything, and if he hadn't murdered brok he would have had a second chance
19:25what I especially love about this moment is that if you read Kratos journal you’ll see that he was tempted by the offer Odin gave (you can even see it in his inflections and Christopher Judge’s phenomenal performance) but because he trusts Mimir Atreas and Freya, not to mention seeing all the destruction Odin caused gave him all the justification for refusing
i’m surprised no one is pointing out how odin’s manipulation was at its peak when he was acting to be the understanding, accepting father figure for Atreus, basically filling all the holes Kratos at the time wasn’t able to. Odin is such a great villain, he has so many different faces and tactics of manipulation. With Thor it’s emotional abuse and degradation, with Kratos it’s trying to exploit his want for peace and tries to exploit his attempts to escape his past, and with mortals it’s with that “divine love”.
Odin is one of my favorite villains cause for like a 3rd of the game he had me legitimately believe there was a peaceful way out, that maybe if Odin got his answers no one else had to die
@@blazeburner303 the answers he is looking for are only just for him, not for everyone/everything. He just looks for a way to be even more in control of everything, so nothing would have had changed, maybe except that if he knew when he died he would have been even more dangerous
I like that behind it all Odin is ultimately a coward. Even when the mask is right there he tries to get 'Loki' to use the mask so he can make sure it won't kill him before he uses it. He also almost never does his own dirty work, sending others to get the mask, sending Thor or Heimdall to kill his enemy, and just hiding behind the walls of Asguard.
I mean zeus did that to a WAY larger degree literally sending every kid, god, demi-god, basic enemy, monster and the whole nine yards after Kratos before ever having to have a confrontation himself. Although yes Odin does send a lot to do his bidding, he does so with an intent. Thor's the enforcer, Baldur's the tracker, Heimdall's the interrogator to a degree and they all serve their purpose in the grand scheme of things. This is also why he refers to Modi and Magni as useless since they lack any real purpose or skillset that could benefit Odin. Hell even Baldur refers to them as idiots just further signifying how little everyone on Asgard cared about them. Odin doesn't send others to deal with the people he's looking to manipulate or kill out of a fear of facing them himself but because he believes that he has such control over every given situation that he has no need nor care to do it himself.
@@jasonsjustbetter2037 Because that would a crappy GAME if the end-game boss showed up at player level 1 and one-shot them… and roll credits. People don’t like rooting for powerful character. They want underdogs, due to emotional economics. You are overthinking it and fail to realize that media that the story is written with dictates certain bias. GAME will dictate a power-creep flow of the story. Mainstream comics (main branches of DC/Marvel) have to SELL PERPETUALLY, and hence, nothing will last or have meaningful effect - story is biased towards eternal status quo. Etc
@@kingol4801 I largely agree with you but did want to point out that "final boss just kills the main character" is the plot of God of War 2. Zeus says "fuck it. Not risking it" and saps away Kratos godly powers before killing him. Then Kratos crawls out of hell, rewinds time and forces a do over. imo that's why Odin hangs back as much as he does. He can't just kill Kratos without risking something that fundamentally up-ends the order of things.
I mean ya that's what politicians do and a king is a politician. Joe Biden is a bigger coward I don't think he's been without armed security and outside gated communities in his entire fuckin life lol let alone go to Iraq or Ukraine to drone strike random children because Nancy Pelosi was losin money in the stock market. Not defending Odin but like he went wayyyy further in person than any other politician ever would. He stuck his neck out a lot by pretending to be Tyr. But like kings delegate that's the job description
The whole big brain breakdowns of the brilliant character writing of the game is good. But the thing I appreciate the most is that he isn't trying to walk us through the game like we haven't played/seen it before; a concept proving rather difficult for a lot of other RUclipsrs. Love the work man. Keep it up 💯
What I love about the first interaction between Odin and Kratos is that you can see from the most subtle of movements what Kratos is thinking as he listens. When Odin offers to get Freya off his back he turns to Thor. Kratos can see what his role is with Odin. "Get rid of his problem?" He pieces together Odin would just send Thor to kill her, which is not what he wants. Every offer to make him leave them alone, every rhetorical trick - he's heard it all before. Athena, Zeus, Ares - Kratos isn't moved because Odin isn't throwing out a single trick he hasn't fallen for in the past.
Odin was a slick piece of work for sure, and his underlying motivations made him more interesting. If it weren't for Mimir doing his damndest to cuss Odin out, I woulda thought Kratos a fool for not listening to Odin's reasoning. 100+ Winters of daily personally-administered torture does a lot to remind an audience of Odin's villainous nature. It was a great set of acting chops needed to take my attention from it if only for a moment I don't think I was the only one who could feel themselves being at least slightly pulled in by Odin's charms (or at least being able to understand how a young Atreus could possibly be won over by him).
The first hint I noticed after knowing that Tyr was Odin was when Atreus first offers him a spear and he calls it a walking stick: because Odin uses his spear as a walking stick when he's not in combat
In the very first scene where we met Odin, he already showed his true colours despite him trying to manipulate Kratos and Atreus. Odin made light of the deaths of Thor's sons while sitting right next to him, even calling them useless right to his face. Besides that, the only thing that saddened Odin about Baldur's death is that he lost someone useful to him, not that his actual son is killed. There's no sign of grief when he's talking about his dead family members, their deaths are treated as talking points that he can use to manipulate other people.
I think my favorite thing about the scene before Brok’s death is the music. When Odin-Tyr is talking all dramatic and getting everyone pumped, you get this swelling, triumphant music. “Yeah, we’re gonna do it! We’re gonna kick down Odin’s door and give him what for!” But when Brok starts poking holes in the plan or getting up in Tyr’s face, the music falters. It grows off-key, darker. Brok’s ruining the moment, so to speak. Until finally…
I also think Odin's thought process to kill and destroy anyone who gets in his way is enforced by the fact that IF he gets what he wants from the rift he can bring back everyone he killed and make things the way they were or better.
Yeah, this was an element I expected he'd use as part of his manipulation of Atreus (who's acting out of fear and desperate to circumvent his own father's death). Theoretically, if he actually used the mask for real in that final confrontation, he should've had the power to bring Brok back too.
I feel odin is far more sinister than that. I feel he's cold to whom he kills because they overextended their usefulness or was never useful at all. I feel odin is a violent sociopath/psychopath amongst pyscho/sociopaths. Atleast with Zeus he just outright with his plans.
27:19 Bro, Christopher was spot on with that tone “Release My Son!” Release didn’t come out completely clear, but that’s what happens when you’re so angry that you can’t speak straight because all you’re thinking about is how you’re going to absolutely brutalize a person. If that were another voice actor, unless scripted, there is no way they would’ve done that.
I love that they ended up making Odin a manipulative villain rather than just some overtly authoritarian dictator. Not only because it creates much more interesting character dynamics, but also because it's closer to the actual mythology. I think many people are not really aware, since they mostly just know the Marvel iteration, but Odin is a trickster god among other things. He lies and deceives and betrays and murders, he negotiates and haggles. In the story about the mead of poetry alone he's involved in a peace treaty, the murder of a number of servants, shape shifting, deception, seduction, theft, the laying of a trap and shrewd negotiations for blood money. I guess it says something about the psychology of the norse and germanic tribes which worshipped the aesir that their supreme god is not simply some kind of cosmic entity with supreme inherent powers but instead a wise and accomplished leader who is willing to do what is neccessary and sacrifice what he needs to in order to achieve his goals.
Greek/Roman and Egyptian pantheons much the same. That was the main staying power about polytheism and why very few locations developed any monotheism... it's more believable about any super beings not being a goodie toe shoes. The omnipotent concept is actually very contradictory. In which monotheistic beliefs required sub super beings; in Abrahamic religions we got the arch angels and the Nephilim. In Zoroastrianism to complement their Ahura Mazda you have Yazatas and Angra Mainyu to describe how the bad things manifest. I mean bad things can't come from the so called one and first and most powerful being. Then why would you bother? The thing is both the villain and the hero? So other beings need to take on that personification of why bad things occur. Pantheons allow for a more believable and relatable picture. Gods can be tricked, do tricking, make mistakes, forgive, ask for forgiveness, etc. they have faults just as any other living creature, and they can overcome their misdeeds and learn from them. They have talents and ignorances just as every other creature. Therefore where undesirable things come from, is more of the nature of actions, an emergents of making bad choices, allowing one to learn what is bad, what can cause bad things to happen, how to avoid bad things, or to stop a spiral of bad things from happening, etc. Again, it's a more relatable thereby believable traite to have benevilliance of gods with various strengths and weaknesses... and not have some everything god that contradictory is also responsible for all the pain and suffering and allowance of other undesirables to get away with harmful activities... even with the nephilim and arch angels that turn bad, why can't the one god just make those fallen super creatures vanish? All powerful right? Same with Ahrura Mazda? Just think that mental state out at a higher level to vanquish those higher beings of evil Angra Mainyu? Too many contradictions in monotheism; requires a type of naivety that even many children won't suffer.
@@jmitterii2 Hey, did you know that if you walk around with your nose in the air, your fedora will always fall off? People like polytheism because they like putting things in boxes, ascribing limitations to them, distilling them down to the comprehensible and, above all else, making everything look like themselves. It takes a great deal more naivete to think you can do that to everything, than to accept that some things are simply beyond your comprehension and control.
Odin: Thor, there is a young giant standing behind you; kill it like the rest. Atreus: Actually sir, I'm only a half giant. Odin: Kill it like the rest
Kinda wish you analyzed the talk between Kratos and Odin while they’re alone, I thought Odins attempted manipulation was amazing Also, it was a great move by Odin to reveal Atreus was looking for Tyr, which eventually led to them freeing ‘Tyr’ and allowing Odin to spy on and manipulate the whole group
I just love how every peice of him being Tyr falls into place when you watch everything again. Even the phrase mimir hasn't lost his sense of humor. It's like how the f would you know that, the last time mimir talked to you he was mad cursing Odin out in the cabin. Then you think like ohhh yaaa it's because he was around mimir alot as Tyr. Little nuggets pop up here and there and it's just great. Or how weird he reacts to hear about the offshoot on the yggdrasil paths using tyrs travel stone. But actually I have to disagree on him being funny with heimdall I think it's literally because he can't see him. He has no peripheral vision because of a missing eye. He wouldn't see heimdall moving to his right side. So he turns around thinking heimadall is still there. Also one could imagine odin as Tyr in groa's shrine he walks into atreas. From his height as Tyr and no right eye all he would see is his nose in the lower right quadrant of his field of vision and atreus being small and to the right he would be out of visible eye shot from Odin and thus invisible.
I always thought it was weird how "Tyr" reacted when brok and sindri revealed they had Draupnir, he walked up and loudly asked "YOU stole Draupnir?", and bumped into Sindri when he did, and his eyes even followed him as he went to get the ring
Finally someone who shared a convincing argument that why this Odin is one of the best villains. I sorta felt bad for this sociopath which is a testament for great writing. Santa Monica nailed it!!
When Odin was walking through the training yard it reminded me of my first job at a grocery store. Whenever the manager of the store was giving a new employee the walk about, she would always make a point of making brief conversation with whoever was in the breakroom. It was the only time she would ever speak to me. I realized after the second time that she did it to make the workplace look more hospitable to new hires. It's so subtle, Odin was well written.
It wasn't freeing Mimir, it wasn't slaying Baldur or Heimdall, it wasn't the idea of being cornered... it was Brok calling Odins meal as "passable dirt soup" that truly drove Odin over the edge of fury to murder Brok and reveal himself.
One of Odin's best tricks, and one that I learned from being around obnoxious MBAs is to always act like giving your time is a favor to people, even when you're actually trying to get something out of them. Don't be rude about it, just act like you're busy, or that you made time for them. Odin does this constantly, and makes it seem like a he's doing people a favor by giving them errands to run.
@Spidey 555 I was curious too, so I looked it up. Only thing that came up was master of business administration, a postgraduate degree. I'm not sure whether that's it and if it is presumably the original commenter is referring to those with an mba
Odin in this game, though deeply insidious, is really difficult to dislike. Which is exactly what thay character wants. He's so good at it that it transcends the fourth wall and the meta writing of his character.
I agree! A lot of people think it's flawed, and sure, it has a few issues here and there, but I think it was far more ambitious and interesting than GOW 2018, which was great in its own right! There's a lot of really deep and clever writing contained in this story and I hope more analysis like this can reveal that!
i’ve played many games that tugged on my heartstrings, but gow ragnarok is the first ever game that legit made me bawl my eyes out. that alone makes it the best game ever in my heart.
Through out his entire runtime of the game I had observed Odin, his manipulation, gaslighting, inability to admit wrong or take responsibility for his actions, his lack is sympathy and care for anything that doesn't please or yealed to him and I'm certain Odin is a psychopath or that the design/frame of his character is built on the principle of psychopathy, narcissists and psychopath are very frustrated and have low tolerance for anything they can't control so I I agree Ragnarok or no Ragnarok he would have always killed the giants for the Thier existance outside of his control is intolerable to him.
I honestly believe that if he never seen the Ragnarok prophecy, it wouldn't have happened. All of his atrocities on the other realms were to try to prevent Ragnarok, but it's those very actions that led to the realms rising up against him, including Kratos and Atreus, who had to convince Surtr to even become Ragnarok. So once again someone meets their destiny on the road to avoid it.
@@impartialthrone2097 if it was another character I'd agree with you unfortunately what sealed the deal for me is one fact, remember when Odin killed yimer his father creator of Thier world and then proclamed himself all father, then started a war with the vanir like they were better ya, even with out Ragnarok that side of Odin was still there.
@@Cold_Zero_The_Wise aside from the murder of Ymir, we have no idea when the other events took place relative to each other. We don't know the reason for why the Aesir-Vanir war started (unless that's actually stated in one of the game's, in which case I'd be interested learning). Mimir also says that Odin truly loved Thor's mother and wasn't the same after her death. Whatever he was like before that, I don't believe that man was exactly the same as the one that came after. Edit: fixed some spelling
Just one thing I wanted to add, which you brought up in your Heimdall video, Odin even manipulated Atreus by bringing him to Asgard outside the wall. By introducing him first to Heimdall, who would definitely see through the kid and NOT approve, he was able to position himself as a savior of sorts. The fear and apprehension of dealing with Heimdall made dealing with the kindly Odin a relief. Also, a side effect of how he treats Thor is that when he's dealing with enemies, he ingratiates himself with them to a degree. Thor is basically Odin's enforcer, so nobody's gonna like him. So when Odin expresses outward dislike of him, he aligns himself with his victims. Even though we know Odin is the one who sends Thor, it's hard not to wonder if maybe we don't like Thor because of his deviations from Odin's orders, rather than because of them. It's not often you see an actual, true narcissist as a villain. And I'm not talking about the colloquial version of the term, I'm talking about NPD. Odin is a textbook example, and does a great job of demonstrating why narcissists are so tricky to deal with. There are so many subtleties, I could go on forever. I particularly like how Odin's line about how Mimir and Freya are biased against him comes out of both Heimdall and Thrud's mouths when Atreus tries to tell them the truth. It indicates Odin is planting those seeds in the heads of everyone around him to ward off the truth if it makes an incursion while he's not around. UGH! It's just so good. They did such an incredible job depicting what it looks like when a narcissist is the head of a household.
Odin really tried to manipulate the guy who was professionally manipulated by gods for half of his life, tried to subdue the guy who was god of war, and then tried to kill the dude who spent that other half of his life killing gods like him.
I’m not sure how so many God of War fans didn’t understand why Kratos wouldn’t accept Odins deal. He made a deal before, which got his family killed, and all the stories he’s heard of Odin are “don’t trust him”
He says it himself in his journal, if he didn’t have better counsel, he would have considered taking the offer. That counsel is Mimir and his stories.
also, im pretty sure Kratos saw the way Odin treated his dead son and grandsons
Kratos knows the pain of losing a child in one of the worst ways possible, and for Odin to just say "self-defence. they were pretty useless anyway" will be the most visible red flag for Kratos
(side note but I love how in the first scene with Odin, Kratos places his hand on his axe when Odin is near Atreus but removes it when Odin backs off)
Couldn't Kratos have just lied to Odin though? Tell him "deal" but not mean it and remain on guard.
@@abstract5249 Odin would have likely seen through the lie, seeing as the all-fucker is a master liar.
@@abstract5249 And risking something like the furies chasing him again? I don't think so
The way Odin talks about Baldur, calling him his best tracker, chaser, but never his son in his first scene was a great way to show us his true feelings. Despite being called The AllFather, Odin was anything but a father to his people.
He truly is the ALLFUCKER.
Solid observation
[spoiler warning]
this is reinforced in the scene where he kills thor. when thor refuses an order that odin gave him, odin lashed out with "are you broken?". looked at his very own flesh and blood as if they were tools
... He sees everyone as a pawn. Including his own blood.
@@originaljoke4502 yeah he kinda says the same during the heimdall scene, he tells Thor what are you doing dismissed go. And I just want to say that on this exact video you don’t need to add the spoiler warning, it’s kinda showed in the video and this is kinda a post story content,
Before you ever meet Odin he’s set up as this cruel master manipulator. Then you meet him and he’s this kind friendly man. That’s how these type of people operate in the real world. Not a cartoonish villain, but a charming person who you can fall victim too despite everything. Amazing casting. Amazing game.
So true. I've known people like this, where their terrible reputation proceeds them and when you meet them they are just so cool and you stop and go "Oh wow, I guess everyone was wrong somehow!" Until you realize that that's just part of their game.
True. It seriously gave me flashbacks to some of the sociopaths I’ve had in my life - their charm and charisma really makes you want to believe that they care about you, but they don’t. Everyone around them is there to serve some sort of selfish purpose. The most fucked up thing is that they prefer the people around them be useful - but broken enough to never stand up to them. Basically everything that Odin is, they wrote him well.
True. It seriously gave me flashbacks to some of the sociopaths I’ve had in my life - their charm and charisma really makes you want to believe that they care about you, but they don’t. Everyone around them is there to serve some sort of selfish purpose. The most fucked up thing is that they prefer the people around them be useful - but broken enough to never stand up to them. Basically everything that Odin is, they wrote him well.
aka TRUMP lmfao
@@TREVINpartyTrump is the puppet. A loud one.
Sindri's transformation from germaphobe comic relief to a grieving, vengeful shell of his former self was heartbreaking.
It’s more sad when you realize Brok won’t even have an afterlife, he’ll just be in a blankless limbo for eternity. Sindri revived Brok just to relive that grief all over again and he knows now that it’s his fault.
When he reunited with Brok he refused to give him a handshake because his hands were filthy but he didn't hesitate to smear his hands with Brok's blood to help him.
Was it? Lmao
It was all emotional manipulation to cover up a piss poor story. Imagine leaving a beloved character in that state with no chance to heal the relationship.
@@NWOslaveme after lobotomy
The perfect description of Odin is what Mimir says right at the start: "If he tells you snow is white, he's lying". Even when he's telling you the truth, it's all to serve another lie he'll tell you later, or one he has already told you. Even his appearance is a lie, seeming like a frail, elderly man, in spite of being the strongest god of the Aesir and capable of effortlessly one-shotting Thor. Everything about him, from beginning to end, is about deception and manipulation.
It is expertly written and was done by those who knows these types of people exists.
I had the unfortunate experience of working for these types of people. Psychopaths of both genders. It is evil that they take advantage of at risk and homeless children and even perpetuate their sexual traumas.... (I didn't even notice it at first.)
The irony is - they always lead to destruction. Bankrupting one non-profit and another... but they always manage to manipulate another to fund their sin.
Thor was weakened, I doubt he's THAT much stronger than Thor, he wouldn't need so many weapons and surrogates if that was true. But he always knew when and how to use it better than Thor ever did.
I mean, he just stabbed an unarmed Thor through the heart when it was clear that Thor was weakened and had no intention of fighting Odin.
And hes not lusting over women , more dangerously hes ambitious , always wanting to be one step ahead anybody doesnt matter what cost of it
His reply is telling too: what kind of wisdom is that? He doesn't challenge the assertion, he challenges its utility, and he plays as though its nonsense, without saying as much. His crime family empire runs like a military unit with pieces that each have a clear role but its dressed as a domestic dynasty. He wears his lies as truths every moment because no one except him matters.
What strikes me about Odin killing Thor isn’t that he did, but that he did it so quick. No thought, no deliberation, no hesitance. Thor had one moment of defiance, just one, and that was enough for Odin to instantly want his own son dead.
Yeah. It's so sad. It's honestly just really so telling about how he feels about him. If he wasn't doing EXACTLY what he wanted? Disposable.
And his words are just total shit. "I didn't want this." No, this is exactly what you wanted dude. You know how I know? Because you *chose to do it.* Why did you do it if you did not really want it? Huh? Total blatant lie lol.
For sure. I think Ragnarok happening probably didn’t help with his decision making, but it is insane how he just murdered his son
Yeah, that's why it feel so rushed, but it can be because he knew that fighting Kratos would be impossible if for any reason Thor joins them.
Something I noticed is whenever he's in trouble (like being threatened or whatever) he IMMEDIATELY tries to talk his way out of it, for example Freya has him in a binding spell and the first thing he tries to do to get out of it was smooth talk her about her wings and call her "Frigg" to keep trying to play her cuz he thought she'd fall for it. Unfortunately for him Freya knows better and wasn't buying it, and THEN he uses magic to escape temporarily. By the end Atreus basically had him by the balls with that mask being so close to the "answers" so he does everything he can to try and make Atreus do what he wants. What a really cool way to write Odin, and what a fuggin awesome performance from Richard Schiff too
Yeah Odin’s a real POS LOL.
Let's never forget that Odin also had his "guest" spawn where:
1) Heimdall would feel the need to stop him, as he looks like an intruder, so Odin could swoop in and look like the reasonable one
2) Atreus would need to climb up a trecherous wall, presumably to either die and no longer be a problem or to "prove himself" and therefore "win" Odoin's respect
yeah odins like "you are my guest."
but then has the bird tp him outside the giant ass wall like "nah you're not welcome"
Heimdall even says something along those lines when Atreus meets him
No because that whole part of the story pissed me off. He could've very easily had teleported atreus right next to him but decided to teleport him far away so that he could have atreus prove himself to him and be able to manipulate atreus using heimdall
@@Le_Confuzzlement Yes, that's the point. Odin is a piece of a shit.
Also so that Atreus would meet the new Midgardians which made Odin look even better
To further the points of the Random Guy and Jason, that almost set up Atreus to meet Skjoldr, a boy his age he could bond with who told Atreus that Odin saved him.
So now Atreus reached a place where he met not only one but two teens his age (Skjoldr and Thrúd) to hang out with, he received Freyr's magical sword as "a perk of the job" and Odin sent him on a journey with just the right amount of thrill and adventure to feel free right after having broken away from his then restrictive and overbearing father.
All of that coupled with the fact that Odin did let him go away when Atreus decided his time in Asgard was over made it seem that maybe they were the bad guys while Odin was just a cool guy. If Atreus wasn't so focused in his mission and didn't love his father so much, he might have been seduced into truly joining Odin.
If only Heimdall and Thor were friendly to Atreus, he might have lost his way but their resent to Atreus was one of the few things Odin couldn't control.
Brok, being the one to see through Odin's disguise and pretty much guaranteeing his demise, followed by Sindri being the one to kill Odin, reminds me of Galadriel's words to Frodo in Fellowship of The Ring:
"Even the smallest person can change the course of the future."
Odin was so concerned about the big players(Kratos, Atreus, Freya) that he didn't stop to take the little guy into account. Serves him right
i like boobs
Brok was about to square Fake Tyr's ass up. 😂😂😂
Apt analogy!
Considering the influence Norse Myth played with Tolkiens works, that’s quite a neat circle back lol
Comparing Odin to Sauron is so strange yet it kinda fits.
I’m happy that they didn’t make Odin just another force of nature like Zeus was. He lived up to picture painted by Mimir’s stories in the first game.
Well even in myths zeus was like that,even when he was being the good guy.
And the real odin sure has stories in which is a complete asshole but he also tries to manipulate others taking other forms or names, like wotan, harlequin, ect.
So its fitting.
@@xzenitramx666 yeah both genuinely aren’t too different from their mythological counterparts, they are just plain evil instead of being like what was acceptable back in the day
@@presseagainidareyou4704 yes.
Yeah I fully expected a scheming little bastard and that’s exactly what I got. Honestly couldn’t be happier with this version of Odin.
I had this image that Odin was like Zeus, powerful and imposing but instead of using brute force he used wit. But the Odin we meet was more personable, more intelligent and conniving than I ever could imagine. Also the fact that he has a car salesman personality and talked like he knew how to do business with people but doesn't know how to build a relationship.
One thing I love about Odin's opening scene is how is contrasts so hard with Thor showing up. Kratos seems to respects Thor as a warrior: allowing him inside, placing the weapons on the table, and providing cups for the mead. He even lets Thor be the one to talk.
By contrast, Odin shows up and demands attention: grabbing a chair, not waiting to be invited in, and drinking from both glasses. Kratos shows respect when it is offered; Odin steamrolls in demanding respect.
^Not to mention how with Thor, he genuinely asks ‘Can I come in?’ and actually conveys respect and manners-behavior that differs than that of his callous father. He is upfront with his intentions from the moment he comes in “knocking” and even throws a small compliment to Kratos regarding his home. Up until Odin’s arrival, Thor does not destroy and thrash about the place whatsoever, as he initially attempts to appeal to Kratos’ better nature of being ‘calm and reasonable.’
Odin, on the other hand, not only blatantly waltzes in like he owns the place but also opens with ‘You know who I am,’ thereby not simply implying that he needs no introduction, but that he be granted respect on the spot-as if he were saying ‘you know who I am, so you know to shut up and listen to me.’
The difference between how they approach Kratos in conveying that they do not wish to fight him, is that one sees Kratos as someone who can be reasoned with; the other as a monster that can only be tamed.
@@NeilTheChampion And I think that goes a long way in Kratos's eyes. He's more willing to work with Thor than Odin, because Thor is trying.
It's also wild that Thor - who Odin sees as just dumb muscle - gets more respect from Odin than the top god.
@@caylasudie4475 you mean Thor gets more respect from Kratos than Odin does, right?
Kratos' entry of Thor is kinda interesting. Despite everything Kratos was led to believe about Thor and the fact that he almost drove giants to extinction, Thor lacks genuine malice when he fights. Whereas Baldur enjoyed inflicting pain in others, Thor simply enjoys a good fight, and actually a good warrior with sharp instinct rather than an artless brute.
In Greek tradition, an invited guest is granted sacred hospitality, meaning no harm or violence will be visited upon them, even if they are an enemy. The guest is supposed to respond in kind as well.
Thor was an invited guest. He only went in when given n permission, drops his weapon, offers a drink, and does not partake until his host has. Odin on the other hand barges in uninvited, drinks without being offered, and threatens his hosts.
I also love Odin's design, specifically his oversized cloak. Normally a cloak would be tailored to fit you to be comfortable but his cloak is a few sizes larger than his body, hinting that he's a lot stronger than he looks and the fact that he never actually wore it as a cloak but rather just a cape that rests on his shoulder just shows that he's confident enough to deceive you straight in your face.
thanks sonic
@@kappakuppa7255 no sweat, Kappa.
He’s a God after all
The oversized cloak looks like it would be a fit on thor.
Stop making shit up.
Something that I think often gets overlooked is that it was Brok's reveal and subsequent death that was the turning point of Ragnarok towards Kratos' favor. However, remember that Brok doesn't have all of his soul parts and it's even shown that the Lady of the Forge cannot even perceive him due to this. Can it then not be inferred that the Giants and even the Norns also could not perceive him, and so their prophecies and predictions were going based off the assumption that he didn't exist? If Tyr(Odin) wasn't called out and discovered by Brok, and everyone just played right into his hands then I think the prophecies of Kratos dying and Atreus ending up being subjugated would have happened and Odin would have won. But since Brok did what he did, he pretty much single handedly caused a divergence in the threads of fate.
good theory, but the old man in atreus' arms with "snakes" coming out of his mouth was actually odin, he has bllood on his face, and the snakes are the soul atreus takes off of odin, and everyone thought it was kratos because of his red markings, but it was actually a bloody eyepatch.
You've stumbled upon something interesting here. Maybe it wasn't so much Kratos who changed his fate, maybe it was Brock.
@@dman7668 yeah, maybe the fact that kratos had that moment with draupnir and brok changed his fate, cause he was a legit good man right there, redifining his nature.
I always knew Brok was the real MVP. Dude is such a savage and funny as fuck. It's a shame he died, but he's a true hero. RIP BROK!
I think it was KRATOS who changed Fate cause we all know that prophecy of kratos dying would’ve been full filed if he didn’t stop fighting thor because odin would’ve saved him and gang up on him i think the minute he stopped was when it changed
Odin doesn't kill Brok because the dwarf is annoying him; it's because Brok was about to blow his cover. No one knew it was Odin, obviously, but Brok at least noticed the idiosyncracies that showed "Tyr" was working against the entire group, not for them.
1) If Tyr had a way to Asgard, he could have let the group know about it and had the conflict over and done with long before the mask was taken into account. Even if he suspected that Kratos would have done something foolish, it was irresponsible to not at least mention, "Hey, I have a path here to possible victory over this bastard, but you need to prove yourself willing to control your emotions."
2) When Tyr says he'll gather his things, Brok stomps it down immediately. Tyr literally brought nothing with him to the house but the clothes on his back and lived in a damn closet. There's nothing TO bring back. (Oops, too soon?) Odin was likely going to peace out with the mask as soon as he was out of view, and then flood the entire Realm-Between-Realms with Einherjar until not even Ratatoskr was moving.
3) Brok slapping the mask out of Tyr's hand was more a sign of admiration of Atreus, but it instantly puts Tyr on the spot. Panicking to get it back would be a dead giveaway, and now that it was out of arm's reach he'd have no way of getting it without resolving Brok's concerns (one way or another).
4) Of course, bringing up the "Loki" slip-up is the biggest giveaway. We don't see anyone else react, but it's at this point that everyone else is starting to realize something isn't right. Tyr isn't even trying to answer anymore; he turns away, to buy time for his exit strategy.
Odin's manipulation of the group is no longer viable, so he makes the jump to subjugation by killing Brok and taking Atreus hostage. My favorite aspect of this encounter is what happens almost immediately after, though; Kratos growls at him to _"Stop. Moving."_ *_And he does._* After Freya leaves to attempt to save Brok, he demands of Kratos and Freyr, "I don't move, YOU don't move," in a futile grab to maintain a hold on the situation. But because of the cooperative effort of Freyr, Kratos, and Atreus, he ends up leaving empty-handed to save his own skin. He's been bested, all because of a blue, crass, presumed-stupid dwarf with an incomplete soul - a member of a race he saw fit for an eternity of slave labor and nothing else.
"Of all the things..."
I still think that part of it was that he got frustrated with Brok but I think what is most important is what angered him. You kind of touched on this but what Brok did was that he dared to not play along, to fight back. Odin was already desperate and scrambling to regain control so seeing Brok, a being he saw as completely beneath him, not only resist his attempts of manipulation but do it in such a way that undermined his control over the others, completely sent him off the edge.
It was a great scene
These are brilliant observations dude holy moly
Brok was annoying him because he was gonna blow his cover, so he said "fuck it", killed brok, and tried to leave with the mask
I love the way Brok just tears his ass apart. "Tell us about this way to Asgard. You don't got no things. Drop that mask. Stop calling him Loki."
Odin is overwhelmed because Brok just pointed out four things at once, and he didn't come up with an explanation for _any_ of them.
9:37 another of these manipulation tactics odin uses in this scene is the “good cop bad cop” routine. he could have had the ravens plop atreus within asgard’s walls from the very beginning, or even right in his office. but he had atreus climb the wall with the intention of having him meet heimdall first, who we all know is a prick from the start, and then defusing the situation later when odin makes his own appearance. he offers relief with his presence.
Excellent point. I didn't like the Aesir gods that much but more you look into their personality the more you realise their characters are realistic (Heimdall being a jerk since he can read minds, Thor getting manipulated by Odin to think of himself as a "destroyer" eg)
Not sure what you mean by this comment. The ravens can't teleport anyone unwillingly, Mimir states this during one of his conversations with Atreus.
@@jacksonholder2987 He travelled to Asgard willingly
@@jacksonholder2987 He means that Atreus willingly going to Asgard, he could've ended up anywhere of Odin's choosing. It stands to reason they must be able to at least return precisely at home when going to Asgard and Atreus could've been transported straight to Odin's side. But instead Atreus ended up on the outskirts, outside the wall and he would have met Heimdall. Odin is no fool. He knows how Heimdall is and by letting Heimdall be the a hole, Odin can come out and put Heimdall in his place, protecting Atreus and making a good impression on him.
Also odin manipulates by doing and trying everything to make atreaus go against his father by being more accepting to atreaus than kratos was to appear trustworthy. He also defies expectations because kratos thinks all gods are deceitful and untrustworthy for a good reason and teaches that to his son. Odin sees that and tries to defies that expectation by being diplomatic and gives atreatus everything he needs and wants that would benefit odin
Something I noticed about Odin is that he is addicted to viewing himself as a Victim, a Victim of Fate, a Victim of Circumstance, no matter what he has to be the one wronged, that way he can justify his actions to himself. Its most prominently shown just before his death; he tries to blame Atreus for the destruction of his family and realm when his actions caused both, but what does he say in return? "It wasn't my fault, I had no choice." In a way he's so good at lying he lies even to himself.
The narcissist cannot admit that he was ever wrong.
The narcissist mantra:
That didnt happen.
And if it did, it wasnt a big deal
And if it was, its not that bad
And if it is, it's not my fault
And if it was, i didnt mean it
And if i did, you deserved it.
You're right, Odin is very good at playing the victim. He is always quick to blame others for his own mistakes, and he never takes responsibility for his actions. This is a classic narcissistic trait, and it is one of the things that makes Odin such a dangerous and manipulative character.
Odin's need to see himself as a victim is rooted in his deep-seated insecurity. He is a god, but he is also a mortal man. He knows that he is not perfect, and he is afraid of being exposed. So he projects his insecurities onto others, and he tries to make himself look good by making them look bad.
This is why Odin is so quick to blame Atreus for the destruction of his family and realm. He knows that he is responsible for what happened, but he can't admit it to himself. So he blames Atreus, and he tries to make Atreus feel guilty.
Odin is a master manipulator, and he is very good at getting people to see things his way. But he is also a very flawed character, and his need to see himself as a victim is one of his biggest flaws. It is a flaw that will eventually lead to his downfall.
I think it's interesting that you mentioned that Odin is so good at lying that he lies to himself. This is a very perceptive observation. Odin is so used to lying to others that he has become very good at lying to himself. He has convinced himself that he is always right, and that he is always the victim. This is a dangerous delusion, and it is one of the things that makes Odin such a dangerous enemy.
I think Odin's story is a cautionary tale about the dangers of narcissism. Odin is a powerful god, but he is also a very flawed man. His need to see himself as a victim has led him to make terrible mistakes, and it has ultimately led to his downfall. We can all learn from Odin's story, and we can all be careful not to let our own narcissistic tendencies lead us down the same path.
@@ZdenekMicke69Not all narcissism or just narcissism. Odin is specifically a malignant narcissist, which most sufferers of NPD are not.
All narcissists are deep down terrified of being shamed, and put on their facade as a means to hide their own insecurities from themselves and others so as to never feel the pain of shame. But only a few will deal with that fear not just by deflecting criticism onto other people or things or factors regardless of whether that criticism is justified or not (and that caveat is important, because not taking blame for something that genuinely isn't your fault is a fine and healthy trait), but ALSO by proactively and obsessively going out of their way to degrade and manipulate others. Only a few will commit to trying to dominate everyone around them and undermine other people's self-esteem to ensure they can never be put in a vulnerable position or one-upped. Only a few, in short, are anything like this Odin. That's why not every narcissist is a cult leader, and often, they're just regular people who happen to hide their insecurities behind false confidence and deflecting criticism.
@@ZdenekMicke69well said mate, and a very correct description of the All-Fucker, I really wish we had gotten a line from either Kratos or Freya during the final battle telling Odin that he can’t talk his way out of this one.
"I regret many things, killing you will not be one of them."
Kratos just straight-up told him. He has made peace with his killing. He knows that now, he only kills because it is necessary or because it is the right thing to do. Odin thinks that Kratos is reverting to his old self, which scares him. He desperately cries, "I am in control here" because he desperately wants that to be true.
Easy to say when this god doesn't ruin humanity with his death
Like every God he killed in Greece
@@psychoticdaizyproductions569I mean that's only true in GOW 3 but sure
@_under_a_bridge3454 Not really. Athena's domain, wisdom, is released and unattended after she dies in GoW 2. That's why everybody acts like an idiot in GoW 3. Ares' domain is quickly taken over by Kratos at the end of GoW 1 so we don't see the repercussions of his domain being left unattended.
What gutted me most is how sympathetic Thor becomes. You watch him struggle to change for his wife and daughter, regretful of how Thrud is his last child and how he still struggles with his alcoholism, and how he bears the brunt of the abuse from his father. He is constantly ridiculed and made to feel small, and when he finally breaks out of Odin’s control to defend his family and forge a better path for them by Kratos’s (and in some way, Atreus’s) prompting, Odin kills him. I love Brok and I know that was supposed to be the emotional motivation to the characters and player to kill Odin, but Thor’s death just added to the fire. I wanted so badly to see Thor win at something finally. I was crushed when he died.
I think Thor is very sympathetic right from the start. Despite his bombastic entrance and threatening demeanor, he’s actually polite. Asks if he can come in, compliments the place, offers mead and wants to have a discussion. Even if he’s doing it out of obligation, it’s a stark contrast to Odin, who acts like a dick right away. Thor even has a legit reason to hate Kratos, the guy killed his sons.
Thor is Kratos if Kratos had obeyed Zeus.
@@shmekelfreckles8157 I think deep down Thor know Kratos is not the blame Odis is. But like most of the abused he couldnt channel his anger towards his abuser anyone but Odin. In first fight Kratos simply tells him he did not want to kill his sons they struck first and didnt wish to fight his brother too. They were on their path to death cause of their allfather not kratos
I don't think it's a mistake that when Thor finally stands up to Odin, he does it the exact same way Kratos did: a flat, unemotional "No".
I know it would have gone against Kratos' whole character arc of the last 2 games, but after Brok and Thor, I was really itching to give him the God of War 3 treatment.
Broks' death wasn't "meaningless" to odin. Brok was a wrench in his gears. He had the group eating out of his hand as tyr and was just inches away from victory... and Brok put it to a grinding halt by calling out multiple holes in his manipulation. I noticed from Odin that soon as anything goes against his planning, his first reaction is to panic. When he found out gryla lied to him, he was just about broke character as Tyr. When sif continued to question and call him out, he would spit out rushed panicked excuses. When brok halted his taking of the mask. And also when thor refused him, and then he turned to see thrud witness his murder and he immediately jumped to a very half assed panicked blame, pointing to try to keep thrud from turning against him. When he's stuck fighting kratos and then freya comes in, he quickly tries to manipulate her. He is the quintessential "planner who starts breaking down when he has to improvise"
Exactly. Odin could have tried to keep up the charade and go for a "Oh it's something in my temple on Midgard", but he always panics with any amount of "defiance"
Oh definetly...
If he had only 30 seconds to answer he wouldn't have to kill Brok
Too bad he got pressed so hard so quickly
it's Groa, not Gryla. Groa is the prophet of Ragnarok who gets killed by Odin; and Gryla is the grandmother of Angrboda and one of the bosses of the game.
Acting in panic doesn't mean it was of meaning, as fatbrett says, he lost control and panicked and that led him to killing Brok. Don't you think if he had just pushed him away/come up with an excuse that his death (by Sindri filled with vengeance) could have been avoided? Sure if Brok would have lived he would help Kratos and the others but at least Sindri wouldn't kill him out of spite.
I think here was he already pissed and got sloppy because moments earlier Atreus was gonna give him the mask, but he got sent away due to Thor almost killing him. Like he said, killing Brok wasn’t really part of his plan
What makes Brok’s death even more heartbreaking is the compassion involved. Kratos’ kindness when he let him bless the spear, gave Brok the confidence to stand up to Odin and confide in his friends. Which is something that wouldn’t have happened if Brok was still angry with Sindri after discovering he was revived. Brok felt loved by those close to him and he ended up sacrificing his live to save them.
That is easily the best moment in the game for me. Brok getting respect and friendship and Kratos delivering a true bro moment and showing a lot of growth.
The game was fun . I can’t believe how much you care
Saying he made a sacrifice implies he made a choice. There was no choice involved save Odin's. Dude was straight up murdered in cold blood.
@@AbesamisMbruh
@@Antifag1977i think the "choice" they were referring to was brok calling out odin's bullshit
I found it funny when players initially didn't consider Odin to be particularly threatening or ominous as a villain. But to me, he was terrifying right out of the gate. He reminded me of every dictator and cult leader I've ever read about, and every abuser I've ever known. The way he was written, directed, and performed was nothing short of genius.
Because Zeus is just overwhelmingly menacing and proved how much of a threat he is to the titans even just by himself so seeing Odin as an old, frail man who usually rely on magic to fight back is not something that fans would be scared off
@@Pauli-dg2yv And the writers did the right thing to describe the all father this way, to be honest I wouldn't want to have a second Zeus with the same personality and form. And I don't think a lot of fans would like this neither.
I think someone can't be properly frightened of a manipulator like Odin unless they've been a victim of one, or at least have learned from such a victim. One of his key manipulation moves is to seem harmless to someone unprepared for someone like him, and a lot of the _players_ of the game were in that position.
Only problem I have is we didn’t really get enough of Odins true colours, he killed brok and you don’t see him till the final boss and then it’s over after that, you he had some narrative influence with having the midguardians as human shields but we didn’t fully get to see the all-knowing all-powerful god that everyone fears, I loved that when you first see him you think “this isn’t Odin, he’s too small and skinny” but it’s deception and his villainy is within his words, Thor was his muscle but tbh with how much magical knowledge he had, I was expecting the final fight to be a lot more chaotic than what it was and just more destruction from him
Totally underrated comment right here!
One thing I think is critical to note is how the Norns discuss how prophecy (Or the lack thereof) works. They state that there is no actual reading the future, just predictions based on an understanding of each person's character, which they even refer to as archetypes. In it, they accidentally give a clue to how prophecy is subverted, which is basically "Stop acting like an archetype, and start acting like a person". Odin could never do that, which is why, no matter what, his downfall was guaranteed.
Thank you!!!! I thought I was the only one that thought this.
The norns are essentially just really good literary analysts looking at really complicated characters and making their best predictions.
@@Skyisgoingbacktopluto REALLY good literary analysts. Like predicting the exact dialogue before it's written good lol
I don't think it was even an accidental clue. They outright _tell_ Kratos how to avoid his prophesied fate. They just didn't think he'd actually be able to do it
That, I believe, is a huge part of every god Kratos fights in GOW 2018 and Ragnarok. Baulder could have walked away at the end and not continued to attack Freya, thus making Kratos not kill him. Heimdal could have just shut up, or stopped being a jerk, not said anything about Atreas, and Kratos would have left him alone (with both arms intact even). Thor could have stood up to Odin long ago and might have survived, but he changed too late and left himself open to Odin. And Odin himself could have stopped his singlemindedness about knowledge and Atreas would have spared him. Modi and Magi both were both little shits but we didn't know enough about them at the time, maybe they could have survived too. Every god that died refused to change (and with Thor, refused to change in time) and ended up dying. Kratos would have died instead, but he changed who he was, and took back things he said to Atreas and this is what ultimately saved him.
I've been saying this since the game came out: everyone in the voice cast is great, but Richard Schiff as Odin is just on another level. His ability to disarm you with his warm, friendly demeanor only to turn on a dime into a ruthless tyrant is absolutely MASTERFUL.
I always hated how they did his character in the Lost World letting the T-Rex rip him in half after he saved the entire cast. Idk I just thought it was a shitty way to let him go out. I wish they would have let him survive by the army that was hunting the Rex showing up and running them off or some how.
The jewish new yorker accent is the cherry on top for this
Ya even tho we know he's the big bad guy and this is all manipulation you can feel sympathy for odin at times.. it's weird
I’ve actually met a few people with an accent like his and most of them are older too so the way he spoke reeeeeaallyy got to me
Toby Ziegler is the master of quiet rage
Can we talk about Odin's voice actor for a second? He does a DAMN good job making Odin seem like this likeable smooth talker, which contrasts beautifully with his hateable, deceitful personality.
I was a little surprised to find out that Richard Schiff didn’t do stand up comedy
Yeah, he plays a manipulative leader who goes from a frail old man to a cruel tyrant.
I accidentally spoiled myself with the Tyr twist, but it actually made me pay closer attention to what he said and did throughout the game. Knowing the twist recontextualizes so much of the game.
In the scene where Kratos, Atreus, and Tyr find Groa’s prophecy, its easy to miss but Tyr actually walks forward saying “Groa lied…” with a dumbstruck look and inconsiderately shoves Atreus out of the way to get closer, one of the most out of character things the gentle Tyr could do. Knowing the twist, to me that was the biggest hints that it’s actually Odin, shocked about his own fate.
exactly when i first saw that scene i kinda brushed it off as "oh hes just so big maybe he didnt realize he nudged him" but when that twist was revealed i went back and watched all of the scenes with him and yeah.. that one stood out like crazy
Knowing it, and watching the cutscenes again, I can pick out all the passive-aggressiveness in him, because his ego simply can't bear that much injury.
@@Shtummyyy He might not have actually realized he shoved Atreus, because Odin is actually blind in that eye. He forgot that he had to pretend he had two working eyes as Tyr.
This is exact how I felt on my second play through lol
Actually knowing some spoiler made the twist even more exciting. U dun know when he gonna hit or how it gonna happen but u know it coming
One of my favorite little details is at 17:05, Odin pushes Thor to drink even though he's clearly trying to be sober. Obviously Odin wouldn't want a sober Thor because he'd be even easier to manipulate if he was drunk. Even how Odin remarks "you're no fun anymore". Basically Odin lost some control over Thor and he knows it, which is likely why he treats him so harshly now that he is sober.
That’s an interesting idea
I always felt it had something to do with Thor’s mother but this makes a lot of sense
He clearly pushes him to being a drunk.
Would explain why he has so much disdain for Sif as well. She encourages Thor to be sober, to stand up to Odin, and Odin's probably not a super big fan of that.
And how he nailed to Sif that Thor started drinking again on his own volition while in fact he subtly chastised Thor for being sober. Not sure if he was intentional with that but clearly a drunk Thor would question less while Odin got ever closer to his goal with Loki.
It is similar in another game, Odin's Sphere.
*Spoilers for Odin's Sphere*
In it Odin really has no affection for Gwendolyn, favoring her sister over her. But once Gwendolyn gives Odin a magic ring that was gifted to her by her husband, he showers her with praise about being the best daughter in the world. Odin only ever sees her as a tool and when she does what he likes, is when he changes his tune. Odin's praise and love in both games are conditional.
It is in contrast with her husband, Oswald, who loves her unconditionally, even after she hurt him and betrayed his trust by giving the ring away.
don't forget how odin's always got that 'I'm really very busy but I can make time for you' demeanor... as the all father he's observed just how much people seek/desire his time and attention. He's weaponized being an absentee father to his advantage.
Ugh, yeah, that's so disgusting lmao
Fuck. The "Absentee Allfather" premise hit me harder than I was expecting. They do such a good job making Odin a piece of shit.
He didn't murder brok because he found him annoying, he murdered brok because of panic. He never thought that his almost perfect guise would start to unravel and killed him because he saw no other choice out of panic. You're right that it doesn't help him in anyway though.
It's also an attempt to regain control. He knows his deception is on the verge of falling apart, so he makes a choice: blow his cover himself. By blowing the cover on his own terms, he tricks himself into believing that he is still in control
It’s because this is a mere game. In real life Odin would pwn kratos as he is way smarter than
@@shamsmehdi3725 Yeah bud in real life Odin and Kratos wouldn't be decking it out.
All though he did it because of panic, Brok's death does serve a purpose for Odin. No one was able to see through his manipulation except Brok and possibly he could never manipulate Brok. Everyone in the room including Kratos was convinced by Tyr's(Odin's) vague answer about why he withheld Asgard. Brok though, threw in questions after questions. Brok shattered Odin's entire foundation of manipulation and control. In Odin's view at that moment Brok was the biggest threat, not Kratos, or Atreus or Freya.
19:35 his simple "No," is extremely in line with what we know about Spartan culture.
Just as a for instance:
Philip sent a message to the Spartans saying “If I invade Lakonia you will be destroyed, never to rise again.”
The Spartans replied with one word, “If.”
Of course, Macedon went on to thrash Sparta at Megalopolis. Presumably with the added retort of "next time, reply with complete sentences, scrub."
Blunt and using their own keyword. Kinda fits GoW 2018 and Raganok Kratos on the bluntness
17:00 Kratos is the perfect counter to Odin. He can't be overpowered. And he most definitely can't be manipulated. Especially by any God. He has way too much history with being manipulated by Gods to trust any enough to play along.
Edit: to show how good of manipulator Odin is, another thing to note is if you look in Kratos' journal Odin almost got Kratos. Kratos admits he considered agreeing with Odin and taking the deal, But turned it down for Freya's sake.
But Kratos not taking the deal was exactly what Odin wanted. And mentioning Freya was so that Kratos won’t take the deal. Odin did get Kratos.
@@obblivionkr what? If he accepted the first deal there would be no need to bring out a fake Tyr, the story would've simply not happened had he convinced Kratos. Kratos declining set his sights on Atreus and controlling both of them through him.
Well, you know , how many times has Kratos been fooled by the Gods he knows very well they don't fulfill their promises
@@Raymander97 The game straight up tells you that the whole conversation was a façade just so that Odin would have a chat with Atreus, so yes Odin had already planed on Kratos refusing the deal.
@@chavaz06 you are actually wrong, the fight with Thor was a facade, to keep Kratos busy, not the initial deal. If it worked with Kratos, it worked, if not he still had Atreus to convince of his "good intentions"
On the topic of Odin lashing out when he feels his control is slipping, a good amount of Mimir's stories from last game fit the bill as well. Skaði, Starkaðr, Hrimthur, Thrym, Tyr, Freya, all were individuals who either denied or threatened Odin's overall control, leading him to act against them, harshly
Agreed. And a lot of people, especially the haters, seem to forget - whether purposefully or by sheer ignorance and or stupidity - that Odin's offer of 'peace' to Kratos included 'Keeping Freya off his back'. Anyone who's paid attention to the stories in 2018, as told to us by Mimir, knows that Odin never does anything without purpose, and ruins those who try to stand against him. In the case of Freya, he bound her to Midgard, metaphorically, emotionally, what-have-you, kept her from her home-realm, took away her Valkyrie wings, and turned their son, Baldur, into a monster. "Keep Freya off your back..." Those words made me shudder. Kratos didn't want Freya harmed, and accepting Odin's peace offer would have meant Odin would have done something bad to Freya. Maybe, just maybe, he would have killed her.
@@marywilcox3102 if Óðinn had never mentioned her Kratos most likely would have taken the deal. His journal basically says that.
@@cult_of_odin No, I don't think he would. Kratos is not stupid, he's been down the road of being manipulated by a god before, why do it again, even for a supposed peace?
@@marywilcox3102 also, nothing says Odin wouldn’t just come back for them later
@@ItsButterBean1020 Good point, yes.
I feel Odin and Kratos are great contrasts to each other.
Kratos is brusque, straightforward and stoic and is a nearly unmatched warrior. He is tall, intimidating and physically strong while having no desire for control, only to make sure his family and friends are safe. It's always easy to tell from Kratos and Atreus's interactions that they are father and son and they deeply care about each other, despite the difficulties and strains in their relationship. Throughout the game, Kratos tries to keep Atreus close, which unfortunately plays a factor in driving him away. When Atreus freed Garm, Kratos sensed Atreus's regret and helped him to remedy his terrible decision while acknowledging his faults at being a father recently. Despite Kratos's stoicism and bluntness, he genuinely cares for others, including Sindri, Freya, and Brok, and was devastated by Brok's death at Odin's hands. He learned to seek justice rather than vengeance and value the lives of others, friend or foe, such was when he gave Heimdall a chance to live (which unfortunately didn't work out) and telling Thor he can change instead of finishing him off. At the end, instead of holding onto Atreus as he had, Kratos decides to let him go so he can depart on his own journey, showing his willingness to let his son make his own choices. Kratos was a warrior who grew as a father and a man, proving that he could become better.
Odin is soft-spoken, chatty and expressive, a skilled magic user and a master manipulator. He appears as a friendly and charming grandfather to hide his obsessive desire for control and answers, no matter what lines he has to cross. When you look at Odin's interactions with Thor and Heimdall as well as mentioning Baldur at the start, he speaks to them like they're lackeys under his command rather than his sons: as Brett said, he treats them like tools at his disposal rather than his own family. After Atreus frees Garm, Odin lets him leave on his own and does nothing to help Atreus fix his mistake. Unlike Kratos, Odin had no value for anyone's life other than his own, shown when he didn't mourn Baldur nor Heimdall, his own sons and regarded killing Brok as a 'bargain' for Heimdall's death. Odin didn't care about justice, family or stability, only control: even his desire for answers were to help him gain control over his fate. He constantly blames others for his choices and takes no responsibility for them, claiming he didn't have a choice when he's confronted with them. At the end, when Thor refused to kill Kratos during Ragnarok, Odin killed him without any form of hesitation. This showed his unwillingness to let Thor be his own person and break away from his control: Odin's obsession and disregard for others was so great that he'd rather see Thor dead rather than be his own man. He was a slave to his paranoia and obsession for control, leaving him unable to move on and become better. In the end, he suffered the fate he had long feared: dying and not going to an afterlife.
Tyr also his son
Kinda reminds me of Zeus lol
@@gamingfy5557 Yeah, let’s not forget that. He imprisoned and tortured his own son for going against him and advocating for peace instead of wiping out the Giants like Thor did. Then instead of killing him, he exploited Tÿr’s likeness both to mock him by pretending he’s a coward instead of a man of principle and peace, and to trick those who would ally with him into falling for his lies all over again.
Something I really enjoy with the first loki rift scene is that atreus’ eyes glow green. Green usually symbolise greed, villainy and mischief. I feel that this kinda shows how atreus is feeling drawn to both the mask and the rift, and how the opportunity for infinite knowledge is tempting him.
Wow I didn’t notice that at first!
Green also represents change or time
And he is tempted by that at the very end of the game after fighting Odin in his first phase: he has the mask and Odin invites him to look into the rift like they didn't fight just moments ago while Kratos allows him to make a choice in which ends up destroying the mask.
Green also represents creation. Look outside at the plants. It's a color of life, hence when Atreus looks at the source of creation, the source of all birth, his eyes go green.
It's also a shout out to another famous mask in pop culture, one said to belong to Loki and very associated with the color green...
I love how Odin is such a good liar that he can lie by telling the truth sometimes. The whole part about ''I don't know where I go, when I go''? You can see how that's a mostly truthful answer to Atreus, because he doesn't have a higher being lording over him that gives him meaning like Gods do. But, he conveniently leaves out the rest about the rift, that he thinks it give him control, control over everything through knowledge of everything: ''I HAVE to know what happens next!'' He is such a tricky individual in the way he can serve you a rotten lie, but also a mixture of honesty and deception. That's what even makes him scarier than Thor, god of Thunder.
The best liers are the ones who tell the truth most of the time - mistborn by brandon Sanderson
The truth can definitely be used as a weapon, especially if something is omitted. What was said was still accurate, to an extent.
Makes Mimirs early line "if he tells ya snow is white, he's lyin!" Make a little more sense.
And also the worst villain in history waiting to get killed
d rirorio😅😢😅o😅 i😢 😢😅😅x I mimxiddddii mrX😢 😢d
My own personal head canon is that brok is the reason the prophecy was averted, unless my memory is wrong brok doesn’t show up on a single shrine, when even kratos does, is it possible getting Odin to reveal himself is what saved kratos life? Think about it, without him revealing fake tyr they would’ve gone to Asgard and it would’ve been a trap, they probably all would’ve died.
Also I don’t think he showed up on the shrines because of his missing piece of his soul, maybe the giants couldn’t register him in their visions because he wasn’t a full being? Maybe I’m completely wrong who knows.
Interesting takes
@@jasapotato8362 why thank you
There's also a theory that the lack of this missing part of Brok's soul is what makes him immune from a supposed influence generated by Odin's magical disguise.
I don’t think the prophecy was averted, just that whoever made those prophetic murals misinterpreted the future.
Kratos specifically mentions how a Greek oracle assisted Kratos in overthrowing Ares, her having seen that the god of war would destroy Olympus. However, Kratos later becomes the god of war, fulfilling prophecy himself. In GoW Ragnarok, the prophecy seems to suggest Tyr, holding his spear and Gjallarhorn, would lead the armies against Odin. Again, we see that Kratos and his Draupnir spear are actually leading the war. Another prophetic mural also sees Kratos’ soul leaving his body as he dies in Atreus’ arms, but instead of him, the exact same scene plays out with Odin instead.
EDIT: I just remembered, another mural thing shows Surtr and Sinmara combining to form Ragnarok, which doesn’t happen that way.
25:01 you can hear the music shift from heroic and hopeful to almost sinister when Brok begins to question “Tyr’s” intentions. You feel like something bad is about to happen but then Odin soothes those worries with veiled words and reassurance which changes the music too. then Brok intervenes and suddenly everything goes downhill. The music calms as the tension builds and then suddenly explodes into a horrible crescendo when the mask finally slips off and Odin murders Brok. I thought this was an amazing use of audio to set a scene and to demonstrate just how good of a manipulator Odin is.
I agree with the build up, the changes of tones in the music and the build up of tension worked perfectly. But something felt off with the music when Brok got knifed. It sounded like something that would be played for a big unexpected event, but not necessarily a sad one. Tbh, at this point I thought that Brok's agressive questioning would bring Tyr to go nuts for a "you wanted the northern god of war? I'll show you the northern god of war" moment. I was really hyped by the idea of Tyr's participation in their battle against Odin wince his introduction and thought this was the moment he'll show his true self. It was even suggested in the beginning of the scene when Tyr talks about the fact that he's been useless but now he's going to help.
I was expecting a moment of rage coming out of him and maybe hitting Brok without killing him and to me the music felt exactly like that's what would happen.
But I was deceived.
Don't get me wrong, I love the way things turned out. The sound at this specific scene just felt off to me, and after reading your comment I wanted to share these thoughts with you :) Have a good one
@@kevan1206 Yea seeing the broken Tyr know of to being a more silent rage person than before would've been awesome to witness. Also the during ragnarok and seeing the other towers get some of their people through before being destroyed.
@@supershifter2862 yup ! I also heard the full OST before playing the whole game. I was mindblown by the "Raganrök" track. Felt like so much is at stake. Loved the way they used the song the whole fighting in Asgard sequence, but I felt like it missed the "final decisive outcome" where Kratos or Atreus would have to make an epic choice in attempt to save Kratos or accept he's supposed to die. It lacked a scene with the song being played where we see the protagonist unsure then taking the decision that will seal their fate. It would have had that much weight after the fact that the song was played when Kratos meets the Norns.
Again, I absolutely adore the story the way they've told it, that's just a few things I was anticipating expecting that wasn't delivered. What an epic story though
It's great because it genuinely does sound like the kind of big buildup, "here's the plan", "let's do this" hero music we're used to from movies, shows, and other games. It tricks you just as well as Odin-Tyr's words trick the other characters in the scene until Brok interrupts.
@@NinjaxPrime tbh the studio can be proud of themselves if that was their intention behind the sounds they chose !
19:10
The little detail with Kratos reaching for his axe when Odin got close to Atreus is a subtle but great display of how well characters are written in this game.
The way it all comes together at the end when you state "If Odin had not killed Brok, Odin would not have died" is brilliant. A perfect ending for a character arc, had he been better in control of himself, he would've lived even as he lost control of everything around him.
Odin lost his cool when Brok is within an arm's reach close to exposing his diguise as Tyr.
@@kuyagab4444 and that brok kept shouting down to him like he does to Thor. That didn't help.
@@JimmyBoy9878 oh yeah. Now that you mentioned it. He isn't used to be talked to like that despite clearly knowing that it's just Brok's personality and mannerisms. Most people in the Nine Realms talk about Odin in either sheer reverence or hatred so having someone talk to him like he's on equal footing to someone must've hurt his ego.
@@kuyagab4444 yknow, if brok knew it was odin, i think he'd have alot more to say than just insulting his soup.
"I AM THE ONE IN CONTROL HERE!!!" sounds less than a thing a fluke in the script [accidentally] expanded on later and more of a precise ironic foreshadowing of well... what happens next.
I love how Odin doesn’t just manipulate the characters but also the audience. The way he manipulates Atreus really made me wonder if he was truly evil or not but then I’d have to remind myself of all the misery hes caused people. And the plot twist with him being tyr the whole time was expertly crafted. I can’t wait to replay the game and see all the things I missed in his manipulation.
the most noticable one I saw was when brok and sindri reveal they stole draupnir, you can see "tyr" get visibly mad that two lessers we're the ones to steal his treasure, even getting in sindri's way to the store room to show dominance. he then realized while he cares, tyr wouldn't, and he resets his posture in a more calm and logical posture
I ran into this same thing but when it happened it was a moment of holy crap. At one point when atreus was trying to trick him I was yelling "Oh my god how can't you tell he is playing you?" only to remember just how innocent atreus is.
Literally, I saw myself actually sympathizing with Odin, completely forgetting he’s a psycho
Mythological Odin LOVED to go around incognito and trick people. Making him a master of deception flows naturally from his style.
420 likes.
Using Tyr as a disguise is also brilliant, most of the group have never met him, and the ones who have would be too distracted with the fact that he’s alive to notice how poorly his character is being acted out
And even if they did notice, it could all be chalked up to his imprisonment breaking him.
@@charonib im pretty sure mimir did notice, he says that hes never seen a man so completely broken
@@friccle_ Exactly. Chalked it up to the torture.
@@charonibIf Brock wasn’t there “Tyr” would have played everyone
The ending was soooo perfect. “They subverted their fate by being choosing the right choices at the right time” which really brings out the “we are better than this”. It’s such an amazing game with so many messages but with one final conclusion is that you always can CHOOSE to be better. God I love this game franchise.
Another thing I noticed with Odin's dressing down of Heimdall was this is a strategy I have heard mentioned in the Prince from another story. In it a duke is overly cruel and malicious to his citizens, one day the king comes to visit and sees this. The king enraged beheads the duke in front of everyone thus gaining the love of his citizens. The story concludes that the king had ordered the duke's actions to manipulate the people and had planned to kill the duke from the very beginning. Odin does a similar strategy by chewing out Heimdall for his treatment of Loki. Thus pulling Loki in while "punishing" Heimdall.
That analogy goes a little further when you think about how Odin, as Tyr, knew that the crew were building a weapon with the intention to kill Heimdall if necessary and knew that they were going to congregate their forces in Vanaheim for a bit. Meaning it's possible that Odin deliberately sent Heimdall into their path expecting them to kill him and force their hand, which led to Atreus rejoining him to help finish the mask, like he wanted.
@@Xackadee that’s a really good point
@@Xackadee The master manipulator.
Yep, pulled him right into that little protection bubble that Sif popped the shit out of later.
Sounds like a Kratos story
Odin kills Thor a second after he says No. He then says to Thrud "they did this to us". Everything that happened between him and Thor made me hate Odin and Sympathize with Thor. They way he encourages Thors drinking too shows how much of a scumbag he is
Ever since his first on-screen appearance, I saw Odin as basically a godly Mafia mob boss of sorts, and everyone else as his enforcers. It was rather horrifying that someone literally seen as a king among gods had such a demeanour.
I'm glad they went this route. In the previous game Baldur made it sound like the entire forces of Asgard is one and the same but here when we finally meet that side of the cast. Instead of a family of evil villains working together for the sake of Asgard, all we see is a dysfunctional family that is too dependent or forced to depend on Odin, the major problem on everyone's mind whether they seek his approval or want to be away from him. Instead of begrudgingly hating and disliking the murderous race of gods, we pity most of them because all their problems and insecurities starts with the man in charge.
Don’t forget that at the very start Odin encouraged them to find “Tyr” when he asks them to stop looking. Odin knows they’ll do the opposite of why he says so by pretending he doesn’t want Tyr found he confirms that Tyr is alive and that they should find him. Mimir even says something like “If Odin doesn’t want us looking for him then that’s exactly what we should do.”
That’s why I suspected Odin was cosplaying as Tyr as soon as I got to the part where Tyr learns about the false prophecy. Tyr seemed angry that the giants lied to Odin, but why would he? The first thought in my mind was “ok let’s see if Odin and Tyr are ever in the same room at the same time” lol
He was also in that broom closet a lot right? Lol
A lot of people suspected Tyr was a "bad guy", but no one predicted he was actually Odin himself (at least, most of us didn't). I thought Tyr had been broken by Odin and reluctantly agreed to spy for him in exchange for some kind of peace deal.
That was my biggest question before the the big twist.
It seemed so stupid at the time. Why tell them not to look for Tyr? Of course the first thing they are going to do is look for Tyr.
I had a slightly different theory which was wrong but still kinda cool.
My theory was that Odin wanted Ragnarock to happen because in the prophecy Kratos dies and Loki serves Odin or something like that. Which is why he leads them to find Tyr, and sets other events in motion like getting Heimdal to steal the moon or whatever it was so Kratos and Loki would have to follow the prophecy and shoot the arrow etc.
@@abstract5249 I was suspicious, I'd noticed Odin never had both of his ravens with him in Asgard, I'd wondered why Tyr was angry about Groa's lie, but I wasn't sure until Brok started pointing things out.
Stonehenge might not have provided clean water but it actually did help people get food. It’s a lot easier to farm crops when you have a calendar. You can keep track of the seasons more easily. You know the best time to plant certain crops, harvest, etc.
Well said.
I've seen a few theories about what The Rift truly is, and while pondering if whatever was on the other side didn't have Odin's best interests at heart, like some kind of Primordial angler fish trying to lure him in as a snack, I wondered; what if this was a fragment of Ymir's spirit, or a curse by him? Ymir is the oldest being in Norse Myth, something ancient and possibly incomprehensible to understand. But what if he shared the gift of prophecy that the Jotnar did, saw Odin's avarice and cruelty, and with his dying breath, used what magic he had left to leave something behind that would torment his murderer? He tempted Odin with the one thing he knew he'd never be able to resist; all the answers to creation, and in doing so, doomed him to waste his life chasing a dream.
It's possible that the Rift is a fragment of Ymir's spirit, or a curse by him. Ymir was a powerful being, and he was also very wise. He may have seen Odin's potential for evil, and he may have created the Rift in order to tempt him and to ultimately lead to his downfall.
The Rift is a mysterious place, and its true nature is unknown. It is possible that it is a gateway to another realm, or that it is a portal to the past. It is also possible that it is something else entirely.
Whatever the Rift is, it is clear that it has a powerful effect on Odin. It drives him to madness, and it makes him obsessed with finding the answers to creation. This obsession ultimately leads to his downfall.
Your theory that the Rift is a fragment of Ymir's spirit or a curse by him is a very plausible one. It would explain why the Rift has such a powerful effect on Odin, and it would also explain why it is so difficult for him to resist.
It is also possible that the Rift is a combination of both things. It could be a fragment of Ymir's spirit that has been corrupted by evil, or it could be a curse that Ymir placed on Odin before he died.
Whatever the case may be, the Rift is a powerful and dangerous force. It is something that Odin should have never meddled with, and it is something that will ultimately lead to his downfall.
@@ZdenekMicke69me when I have to hit a word count on my essay
possible. maybe it has something to do with where Athena went, almost like another plain of existence, it might not have any answers tho,
Also the scene where odin speaks to kratos right after he gets the draupnir spear: "You dont really want war, do you?... I want peace as much as you do, perhaps we can find it together". Mimir then says "He's lying", to which Kratos replies "I know". Seeing how this tactic failed, Odin switches his strategy and focuses on Atreus, because he knows Atreus represents Kratos attempting to change himself and redeem his past. Kratos is still haunted by the Ghost of Sparta and he wants to change the cycle of violence and rage with Atreus, but is very protective of him. So Odin starts talking about him, Kratos weak spot, saying "That boy of ours..." He is subtly showing Kratos that he has begun manipulating Atreus and that Atreus is slipping from Kratos grasp, trying to fuel his rage until he ends up making a mistake and driving Atreus further into Odin's hands. "So clever.... kind. You sure he's yours? I kid" Then he brings up Kratos past and exploit his struggle with himself: "Do they not have metaphor in your homeland? Or rather, did they? Im sorry, thats not fair I know you're not the God you once were." He starts roasting Kratos for his past self then immediately does a 180 and says "yea my bad i know youre changing", trying to confuse kratos and catch him of guard. As you said, immediately criticize and then compliment. Once again, his tactic fails, because Kratos threatens him, at which point Odin decides to fully insult him: "And, what kind of God is that? What do you even know of Godhood.... can you even imagine that kind of love? No! You dont care about mortals. You dont care about anyone, but yourself, beyond the monster who kills without cause... is it any wonder that your boy is in no rush to come back to you?" From appealing to his desire for peace, to his desire for change, Odin now fully criticizes him, saying that Kratos has not changed and will not change, and that Kratos will destroy everything he touches until it drives his son away from him.
The irony here is that that is exactly what Odin has been doing this entire time and it finally catches up to him.
yeah a great scene
Also crazy how the prophecy in the last scene after ragnarok shows Kratos being worshipped
Narcissism and sociopathy 101: lie your ass off and accuse others of doing exactly what you are doing.
This is a brilliant breakdown and all, but I'm hung up on the irony of Odin asking Kratos, "do they not have metaphor in your homeland?" when "metaphor" is an etymologically Greek term.
Projection 101
It might be the bias of proximity but I think Odin is solidly in the top echelon of video game villains from the past decade. For just about every reason this video covers; his relatability, his unassuming presentation, his cruelty and abuse which mirrors real life scenarios so well, and his demise. Solid job.
He’s honestly up there with Zeus and Baldur as my favourite God of War villains rn
RELATABILITY?
I beg your fucking pardon?
@@facundomontivero2299 he seems so desperate to know what happens next and is scared of death, i think thats what they meant
And let's not forget that on top of the character being very well written, Richard Schiff gives an amazing performance.
Even if the recency bias was not at play here, Odin is undeniably in the better 50% of villains in any medium.
17:46 look at how Thor smacks his lips when Odin takes that exaggerated sip… he did his best to make that drink look as tasty as possible.
Oden was so well written as a manipulator he felt real. I’m sure I’m not alone in getting flashbacks of the sociopaths or narcissists I’ve dealt with in life. Oden in his big moments manipulates so well and so often with charisma it’s hard to see the holes no matter how glaring. I won’t lie finally putting the beating on him felt so cathartic.
"If he{Odin} tells you snow is white, he's lying." - Mimir
Now it makes sense.
"He made me eat the snow. It *wasn't* white!"
@@frostyguy1989 "It was *yellow* and it tasted *weird."*
Another hint that Odin was Tyr was that upon seeing Freya again he calls her "Frigga", which is something only Odin calls her.
What's up Frigga?
@@tsaqifrizky5276 lmao
And here I just thought it was her maiden name and since they knew each other in the past, I thought nothing of it.
@@kjj26k frigg was her name when she was married to Odin. I didn’t catch on to that either.
@@kjj26k That was her nickname when she was still Odin's Frigga
I like the idea that Brok had suspicions about Odin as Tyr since they brought him back to the house, but didn't say anything because he wasn't sure, only to turn around and go, "OK, there are way too many issues building up now. No one is leaving this house until they get resolved" once Atreus completed the mask and got back to the house.
One thing I like about Odin is his cape. Despite physically looking like an old man, and therefore, not really intimidating, his cape is thick around the shoulders, making them look broader and stronger than they actually are, so it’s just another trick of his to manipulate people without outright saying that he is
I never noticed this until I saw this video, but Odin hinted at the reveal that he was posing as Tyr the whole time. When he mentions Tyr being broken out, he says spending time with him is punishment enough as if he knows of Tyr's newfound pacifism and that it's infuriating everyone. He also quips that Mimir never lost his sense of humor even though Mimir never cracked any jokes during the meeting at Kratos' house and most likely never did during his imprisonment.
Indeed. He even referred to Freya as "Frigg" - her old name back when they were married.
It's so complicated to talk about since it was a fake Tyr, but within the fabricated scenario of Tyr being held prisoner in Svartalfheim, it could be assumed by Kratos and Atreus that Odin would regularly visit to torture, so it wouldn't be unbelievable for Odin to be aware of fake Tyr's pacifism.
Something brilliant was also that Odin made an entire Arc for Tyr, going from reluctant to more involved right as Atreus retrieves the mask. Even though He didn’t succeed fully his methods and motivations were really interesting
I remember thinking to myself that it was a little strange he commented on Mimir’s sense of humor, but I remember reasoning that there’s a good chance he could just listen in on their conversations anyways since he has a bunch of Ravens spread throughout the realms to spy on them. Since they’re green, I assumed he must’ve had some kind of link that just let him at least hear the random conversations they were having when they passed by the Ravens outside.
I’m not going to pretend like he didn’t completely fool me otherwise though. That comment about Tyr being an insufferable prick all of a sudden flew over my head the first time.
> He also quips that Mimir never lost his sense of humor even though Mimir never cracked any jokes during the meeting at Kratos' house and most likely never did during his imprisonment.
Wasn't Mimir Odin's advisor for a longass time? This seems wrong.
The scene right before the moment Odin kills Brok also plays a role in his uncontrollable reaction too. The dwarf brothers had a secret plan to get Atreus out of Asgard and never discussed it in front of Fake Tyr. Which threw Odin off his perfect plan to gain the mask and be done with the boy. He kills Brok as a way to get back at the brothers for outsmarting him.
I love this deep dive into a more conniving type of villain! Thanks for all the cool work done for this video
He said "wasn't part of the plan" after he killed Brok, which means that he really didn't think about killing Brok
And ironically by retaliating against the brothers he sealed his ultimate fate. Had he not killed Brok, Odin's soul wouldve simply remain inside the magic jotunn marble; trapped but alive and Sindri wouldnt have destroyed it out of revenge. Its almsot poetic how Odin really was his own worst enemy because for all the control he had over others he had none over himself
@@thehermit8618 that's the underlying theme of the game though "those who seek to avoid their fate end up sealing it instead", same happened with Freya happened with odin. Every move he made out of fear if his fate doomed him to it
Don't forget he was also probably annoyed learning they had "stolen" draupnir from him
This is what terrifies me about Odin. I honestly at first followed along with him. As much as the first game told me not to trust him, he started to win me over. It wasn’t till Kratos stood firm against it that I was reminded that Odin was still the villain. He makes so many promises that he honestly could keep, but still screw them all over in the end. But I honestly have to thank the writers for this, because it allowed me to see how manipulators can work. It’s not first hand and the last part doesn’t always happen, but the show, the way with words, the pulling at heartstrings… I now know what it can all look like in everyday life. How I can tell the signs.
I would actually follow him regardless of knowing the ending.
His pursuit of universal truth is captivating.
But all of that got tainted by some family drama and pointless, unnecessary conflict.
@@kingol4801 Bro thinks he's Kenjaku.
There were times when Atreus was talking with Odin and it left me thinking he wasn’t so bad. Richard Siff really did an amazing job selling that character.
"I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you" and " I liked you better as a drunk" were very much Sopranos inspired, and Odin himself is a mix of Tony and Carmine. Manipulative, focused, determined, fearless and very aware of the heightened stakes.
Same thing Tony did to Christopher when he tried to get sober.
@@emmanuelmondesir8677 for sure met a couple of them myself. Pat you on the back with one hand for doing better just to tempt you with the other
A beautiful detail is that Sindri uses Brok’s hammer to kill Odin 👌🏾awesome job Santa Monica!
A villain like this is what you really gotta watch out for...
Another thing is that Odin talks to his troops like he doesnt have a total say in what they do when he isnt around. They follow his orders without question, they train according to his specifications but when Atreus shows up its all "woah! Is this what you do when I'm not around??" By feigning shock, he shows Atreus that he is just as disturbed by displays of barbarism as Atreus is, is able to retriactively avoid direct responsibility for any inexcusable acts of violence tgat Atreus may have witnessed from his forces and also show that he is the only person keeping the Aesir from being worse than they already are. He is the good guy, a bedraggled soul just trying to maintain peace and keep a handle on things. Without him everything would immediately go to shit, so Atreus shouldnt kill him.
Well said
During the Odin fight, as he was shouting "What's it all for?" I realized why Odin's villainy seemed so familiar- he had the exact same vibes as the Dwarf in the Flask, Homunculus from Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood. From motive to composure to third-act breakdown, Odin and Homunculus were the exact same type of Big Bad. And that villain type is definitely one of the most terrifying in all of fiction.
Come to think of it, Edward Elric shares some vibes with Kratos, too- they both have the energy of a person who who saw God and wasn't impressed.
@@jaeded2391 That's...actually a really good comparison. You could probably write an entire essay on the similarities between Odin and Homunculus. Granted, I get the impression that Odin is _even more manipulative_ than Father, which frankly says something.
Now I wish there was a scene of Odin getting his just desserts from an all powerful being after dying.
Odin can be also summarized with this:
"When you notice an insect on the ground, do you stop it to consider it a fool? The life of an insect is so beneath you that it would be a waste of your time to even consider judging it."
9:52
It's more than that, his tricks and manipulation start before all of that.
He lands him outside so that he's AWARE of the Midgardians that are outside the wall.
He has him climb it himself, as part of the sunk-cost fallacy, making the challenge difficult, so seeing Odin is a reward.
He has Heimdall meet him to make it sure that his first interaction with himself is a positive one.
And he DELIBERATELY turns his back to him, not standing to the side, but fully turns his back to make it absolutely clear that he trusts him to not shoot him in the back.
But why would he turn his back completely seeing as he might actually get shot because they don’t actually trust each other
@@user-uc7qb1su4e
There is no risk.
Heimdall is there as a safeguard, but it looks like trust in the scenario.
“It’s so fascinating that the man who cares more about control than anything is undone by being unable to control himself” absolutely blew me away 28:39
Odin doesn't just kill Brok for being annoying as such. Kratos can't be manipulated through conventional means, but Odin invents a new way to manipulate him all the same. But Brok? Brok is honest, a straight shooter, tells it like he sees it. He's already the version of him he wants to be, others might not like it but that is Brok's best and truest self from his perspective. Everyone else is so focused on their own character arcs, Kratos, Mimir, Atreus, Freya, that they can't see past the end of their own nose on that one sore spot, but Brok is free of that and sees right through Tyr, even if he doesn't realise he's Odin immediately Brok constantly calls out his bullshit the entire game. He's not interested in people pleasing, he has no facade, he says what he thinks, and he sees right through people, Brok is the perfect foil to Heimdall. He's Heimdall without the aesir superiority complex, without the loyalty to Odin beat into him from birth. He's what Heimdall wants people to be and wishes he was. And Odin can't stand being presented with a person who can't be manipulated because he wants for nothing, and who basically doesn't even care that Odin exists, he shatters Odin's trumped up sense of self importance.
Bro Odin even had me, THE PLAYER doubting my opinion of him
Such great writing bro
Its funny that in an attempt to gain control (sindri's house and the pointless murder of brok) he lost everything, and if he hadn't murdered brok he would have had a second chance
Yep, his obsession ruined everything and he could have had control if he simply stopped for a moment
Just like the theme of the game, you encounter your fate on the path you choose to avoid.
@@ItsButterBean1020 he got manipulated by his own obsession of gaining control. Desperation is the greatest thing of being manipulated.
@@aeroscantsee1665 in this case, its the path he chose to keep following
19:25what I especially love about this moment is that if you read Kratos journal you’ll see that he was tempted by the offer Odin gave (you can even see it in his inflections and Christopher Judge’s phenomenal performance) but because he trusts Mimir Atreas and Freya, not to mention seeing all the destruction Odin caused gave him all the justification for refusing
i’m surprised no one is pointing out how odin’s manipulation was at its peak when he was acting to be the understanding, accepting father figure for Atreus, basically filling all the holes Kratos at the time wasn’t able to. Odin is such a great villain, he has so many different faces and tactics of manipulation. With Thor it’s emotional abuse and degradation, with Kratos it’s trying to exploit his want for peace and tries to exploit his attempts to escape his past, and with mortals it’s with that “divine love”.
Odin is one of my favorite villains cause for like a 3rd of the game he had me legitimately believe there was a peaceful way out, that maybe if Odin got his answers no one else had to die
even if he had gotten his answers, he probably would find something about them he didn't like and try and get those out of the way
@@blazeburner303 the answers he is looking for are only just for him, not for everyone/everything.
He just looks for a way to be even more in control of everything, so nothing would have had changed, maybe except that if he knew when he died he would have been even more dangerous
I like that behind it all Odin is ultimately a coward. Even when the mask is right there he tries to get 'Loki' to use the mask so he can make sure it won't kill him before he uses it. He also almost never does his own dirty work, sending others to get the mask, sending Thor or Heimdall to kill his enemy, and just hiding behind the walls of Asguard.
I mean zeus did that to a WAY larger degree literally sending every kid, god, demi-god, basic enemy, monster and the whole nine yards after Kratos before ever having to have a confrontation himself. Although yes Odin does send a lot to do his bidding, he does so with an intent. Thor's the enforcer, Baldur's the tracker, Heimdall's the interrogator to a degree and they all serve their purpose in the grand scheme of things. This is also why he refers to Modi and Magni as useless since they lack any real purpose or skillset that could benefit Odin. Hell even Baldur refers to them as idiots just further signifying how little everyone on Asgard cared about them. Odin doesn't send others to deal with the people he's looking to manipulate or kill out of a fear of facing them himself but because he believes that he has such control over every given situation that he has no need nor care to do it himself.
@@jasonsjustbetter2037 Because that would a crappy GAME if the end-game boss showed up at player level 1 and one-shot them… and roll credits.
People don’t like rooting for powerful character. They want underdogs, due to emotional economics.
You are overthinking it and fail to realize that media that the story is written with dictates certain bias.
GAME will dictate a power-creep flow of the story.
Mainstream comics (main branches of DC/Marvel) have to SELL PERPETUALLY, and hence, nothing will last or have meaningful effect - story is biased towards eternal status quo.
Etc
@@kingol4801 I largely agree with you but did want to point out that "final boss just kills the main character" is the plot of God of War 2. Zeus says "fuck it. Not risking it" and saps away Kratos godly powers before killing him. Then Kratos crawls out of hell, rewinds time and forces a do over. imo that's why Odin hangs back as much as he does. He can't just kill Kratos without risking something that fundamentally up-ends the order of things.
@@Humorless_Wokescold True
I mean ya that's what politicians do and a king is a politician.
Joe Biden is a bigger coward I don't think he's been without armed security and outside gated communities in his entire fuckin life lol let alone go to Iraq or Ukraine to drone strike random children because Nancy Pelosi was losin money in the stock market.
Not defending Odin but like he went wayyyy further in person than any other politician ever would. He stuck his neck out a lot by pretending to be Tyr. But like kings delegate that's the job description
The whole big brain breakdowns of the brilliant character writing of the game is good. But the thing I appreciate the most is that he isn't trying to walk us through the game like we haven't played/seen it before; a concept proving rather difficult for a lot of other RUclipsrs.
Love the work man. Keep it up 💯
What I love about the first interaction between Odin and Kratos is that you can see from the most subtle of movements what Kratos is thinking as he listens. When Odin offers to get Freya off his back he turns to Thor. Kratos can see what his role is with Odin. "Get rid of his problem?" He pieces together Odin would just send Thor to kill her, which is not what he wants. Every offer to make him leave them alone, every rhetorical trick - he's heard it all before. Athena, Zeus, Ares - Kratos isn't moved because Odin isn't throwing out a single trick he hasn't fallen for in the past.
Odin was a slick piece of work for sure, and his underlying motivations made him more interesting. If it weren't for Mimir doing his damndest to cuss Odin out, I woulda thought Kratos a fool for not listening to Odin's reasoning. 100+ Winters of daily personally-administered torture does a lot to remind an audience of Odin's villainous nature. It was a great set of acting chops needed to take my attention from it if only for a moment
I don't think I was the only one who could feel themselves being at least slightly pulled in by Odin's charms (or at least being able to understand how a young Atreus could possibly be won over by him).
The first hint I noticed after knowing that Tyr was Odin was when Atreus first offers him a spear and he calls it a walking stick: because Odin uses his spear as a walking stick when he's not in combat
the way Odin treats Thor is trully disgusting
If you haven't noticed it's the way he treats whole his family too
In the very first scene where we met Odin, he already showed his true colours despite him trying to manipulate Kratos and Atreus. Odin made light of the deaths of Thor's sons while sitting right next to him, even calling them useless right to his face. Besides that, the only thing that saddened Odin about Baldur's death is that he lost someone useful to him, not that his actual son is killed. There's no sign of grief when he's talking about his dead family members, their deaths are treated as talking points that he can use to manipulate other people.
I think my favorite thing about the scene before Brok’s death is the music. When Odin-Tyr is talking all dramatic and getting everyone pumped, you get this swelling, triumphant music.
“Yeah, we’re gonna do it! We’re gonna kick down Odin’s door and give him what for!”
But when Brok starts poking holes in the plan or getting up in Tyr’s face, the music falters. It grows off-key, darker. Brok’s ruining the moment, so to speak. Until finally…
Odin doesn't like having his moment ruined, to say the least. Doubly so when some blue dwarf is just about to blow his cover.
I also think Odin's thought process to kill and destroy anyone who gets in his way is enforced by the fact that IF he gets what he wants from the rift he can bring back everyone he killed and make things the way they were or better.
Yeah, this was an element I expected he'd use as part of his manipulation of Atreus (who's acting out of fear and desperate to circumvent his own father's death). Theoretically, if he actually used the mask for real in that final confrontation, he should've had the power to bring Brok back too.
I feel odin is far more sinister than that. I feel he's cold to whom he kills because they overextended their usefulness or was never useful at all. I feel odin is a violent sociopath/psychopath amongst pyscho/sociopaths. Atleast with Zeus he just outright with his plans.
OHHHHH ok THATS smart i never thought of this
27:19 Bro, Christopher was spot on with that tone “Release My Son!” Release didn’t come out completely clear, but that’s what happens when you’re so angry that you can’t speak straight because all you’re thinking about is how you’re going to absolutely brutalize a person. If that were another voice actor, unless scripted, there is no way they would’ve done that.
I like how Odin's voice is a few twangs short of sounding like a mafia don. The sly calmness to his voice matches the character perfectly.
19:10 anybody else see how fast he instinctively went for his axe when he reached for Atreus?
I love that they ended up making Odin a manipulative villain rather than just some overtly authoritarian dictator. Not only because it creates much more interesting character dynamics, but also because it's closer to the actual mythology.
I think many people are not really aware, since they mostly just know the Marvel iteration, but Odin is a trickster god among other things. He lies and deceives and betrays and murders, he negotiates and haggles. In the story about the mead of poetry alone he's involved in a peace treaty, the murder of a number of servants, shape shifting, deception, seduction, theft, the laying of a trap and shrewd negotiations for blood money.
I guess it says something about the psychology of the norse and germanic tribes which worshipped the aesir that their supreme god is not simply some kind of cosmic entity with supreme inherent powers but instead a wise and accomplished leader who is willing to do what is neccessary and sacrifice what he needs to in order to achieve his goals.
Greek/Roman and Egyptian pantheons much the same. That was the main staying power about polytheism and why very few locations developed any monotheism... it's more believable about any super beings not being a goodie toe shoes.
The omnipotent concept is actually very contradictory. In which monotheistic beliefs required sub super beings; in Abrahamic religions we got the arch angels and the Nephilim. In Zoroastrianism to complement their Ahura Mazda you have Yazatas and Angra Mainyu to describe how the bad things manifest.
I mean bad things can't come from the so called one and first and most powerful being. Then why would you bother? The thing is both the villain and the hero?
So other beings need to take on that personification of why bad things occur.
Pantheons allow for a more believable and relatable picture. Gods can be tricked, do tricking, make mistakes, forgive, ask for forgiveness, etc. they have faults just as any other living creature, and they can overcome their misdeeds and learn from them. They have talents and ignorances just as every other creature. Therefore where undesirable things come from, is more of the nature of actions, an emergents of making bad choices, allowing one to learn what is bad, what can cause bad things to happen, how to avoid bad things, or to stop a spiral of bad things from happening, etc.
Again, it's a more relatable thereby believable traite to have benevilliance of gods with various strengths and weaknesses... and not have some everything god that contradictory is also responsible for all the pain and suffering and allowance of other undesirables to get away with harmful activities... even with the nephilim and arch angels that turn bad, why can't the one god just make those fallen super creatures vanish? All powerful right? Same with Ahrura Mazda? Just think that mental state out at a higher level to vanquish those higher beings of evil Angra Mainyu?
Too many contradictions in monotheism; requires a type of naivety that even many children won't suffer.
@@jmitterii2 Hey, did you know that if you walk around with your nose in the air, your fedora will always fall off?
People like polytheism because they like putting things in boxes, ascribing limitations to them, distilling them down to the comprehensible and, above all else, making everything look like themselves. It takes a great deal more naivete to think you can do that to everything, than to accept that some things are simply beyond your comprehension and control.
Odin: Thor, there is a young giant standing behind you; kill it like the rest.
Atreus: Actually sir, I'm only a half giant.
Odin: Kill it like the rest
Kinda wish you analyzed the talk between Kratos and Odin while they’re alone, I thought Odins attempted manipulation was amazing
Also, it was a great move by Odin to reveal Atreus was looking for Tyr, which eventually led to them freeing ‘Tyr’ and allowing Odin to spy on and manipulate the whole group
I just love how every peice of him being Tyr falls into place when you watch everything again. Even the phrase mimir hasn't lost his sense of humor. It's like how the f would you know that, the last time mimir talked to you he was mad cursing Odin out in the cabin. Then you think like ohhh yaaa it's because he was around mimir alot as Tyr. Little nuggets pop up here and there and it's just great. Or how weird he reacts to hear about the offshoot on the yggdrasil paths using tyrs travel stone.
But actually I have to disagree on him being funny with heimdall I think it's literally because he can't see him. He has no peripheral vision because of a missing eye. He wouldn't see heimdall moving to his right side. So he turns around thinking heimadall is still there. Also one could imagine odin as Tyr in groa's shrine he walks into atreas. From his height as Tyr and no right eye all he would see is his nose in the lower right quadrant of his field of vision and atreus being small and to the right he would be out of visible eye shot from Odin and thus invisible.
Even the mimir quote can be dismissed with "oh yeah he tortured mirir every day so always knew he still had his humour"
Even the waiting to be killed and do nothing part
The tidbits about his eye really make more sense rewatching the scenes for sure
I always assumed it was all attributed to him being able to be "all seeing" and not just being a sussy baka as an impostor among them lmao
I always thought it was weird how "Tyr" reacted when brok and sindri revealed they had Draupnir, he walked up and loudly asked "YOU stole Draupnir?", and bumped into Sindri when he did, and his eyes even followed him as he went to get the ring
Finally someone who shared a convincing argument that why this Odin is one of the best villains. I sorta felt bad for this sociopath which is a testament for great writing. Santa Monica nailed it!!
When Odin was walking through the training yard it reminded me of my first job at a grocery store. Whenever the manager of the store was giving a new employee the walk about, she would always make a point of making brief conversation with whoever was in the breakroom. It was the only time she would ever speak to me. I realized after the second time that she did it to make the workplace look more hospitable to new hires.
It's so subtle, Odin was well written.
It wasn't freeing Mimir, it wasn't slaying Baldur or Heimdall, it wasn't the idea of being cornered...
it was Brok calling Odins meal as "passable dirt soup" that truly drove Odin over the edge of fury to murder Brok and reveal himself.
Odin is the type of guy who makes you look bad for doing what's "right" or just defending yourself
One of Odin's best tricks, and one that I learned from being around obnoxious MBAs is to always act like giving your time is a favor to people, even when you're actually trying to get something out of them. Don't be rude about it, just act like you're busy, or that you made time for them. Odin does this constantly, and makes it seem like a he's doing people a favor by giving them errands to run.
Excuse my ignorance, but what's an MBA?
@Spidey 555 I was curious too, so I looked it up. Only thing that came up was master of business administration, a postgraduate degree. I'm not sure whether that's it and if it is presumably the original commenter is referring to those with an mba
Odin in this game, though deeply insidious, is really difficult to dislike. Which is exactly what thay character wants. He's so good at it that it transcends the fourth wall and the meta writing of his character.
The son of a bitch had ME fooled as well until I remembered when Kaileena said that knowledge was actually poison
he just sounds like a manipulative and self centered person i never liked him lol
Heimdall: "he means to betray you"
Odin: "No sh*t Sherlock"
I'm loving all these analysis videos on God of war ragnarök really does the masterpiece justice by having the care poured into it be noticed
I agree! A lot of people think it's flawed, and sure, it has a few issues here and there, but I think it was far more ambitious and interesting than GOW 2018, which was great in its own right! There's a lot of really deep and clever writing contained in this story and I hope more analysis like this can reveal that!
i’ve played many games that tugged on my heartstrings, but gow ragnarok is the first ever game that legit made me bawl my eyes out. that alone makes it the best game ever in my heart.
@@madeofcastiron "Loki will go... but Atreus, Atreus remains here"
Through out his entire runtime of the game I had observed Odin, his manipulation, gaslighting, inability to admit wrong or take responsibility for his actions, his lack is sympathy and care for anything that doesn't please or yealed to him and I'm certain Odin is a psychopath or that the design/frame of his character is built on the principle of psychopathy, narcissists and psychopath are very frustrated and have low tolerance for anything they can't control so I I agree Ragnarok or no Ragnarok he would have always killed the giants for the Thier existance outside of his control is intolerable to him.
Well said, a great villain indeed in this series.
he most definitely is pervert narcissist
I honestly believe that if he never seen the Ragnarok prophecy, it wouldn't have happened. All of his atrocities on the other realms were to try to prevent Ragnarok, but it's those very actions that led to the realms rising up against him, including Kratos and Atreus, who had to convince Surtr to even become Ragnarok. So once again someone meets their destiny on the road to avoid it.
@@impartialthrone2097 if it was another character I'd agree with you unfortunately what sealed the deal for me is one fact, remember when Odin killed yimer his father creator of Thier world and then proclamed himself all father, then started a war with the vanir like they were better ya, even with out Ragnarok that side of Odin was still there.
@@Cold_Zero_The_Wise aside from the murder of Ymir, we have no idea when the other events took place relative to each other. We don't know the reason for why the Aesir-Vanir war started (unless that's actually stated in one of the game's, in which case I'd be interested learning). Mimir also says that Odin truly loved Thor's mother and wasn't the same after her death. Whatever he was like before that, I don't believe that man was exactly the same as the one that came after.
Edit: fixed some spelling
Just one thing I wanted to add, which you brought up in your Heimdall video, Odin even manipulated Atreus by bringing him to Asgard outside the wall. By introducing him first to Heimdall, who would definitely see through the kid and NOT approve, he was able to position himself as a savior of sorts. The fear and apprehension of dealing with Heimdall made dealing with the kindly Odin a relief.
Also, a side effect of how he treats Thor is that when he's dealing with enemies, he ingratiates himself with them to a degree. Thor is basically Odin's enforcer, so nobody's gonna like him. So when Odin expresses outward dislike of him, he aligns himself with his victims. Even though we know Odin is the one who sends Thor, it's hard not to wonder if maybe we don't like Thor because of his deviations from Odin's orders, rather than because of them.
It's not often you see an actual, true narcissist as a villain. And I'm not talking about the colloquial version of the term, I'm talking about NPD. Odin is a textbook example, and does a great job of demonstrating why narcissists are so tricky to deal with.
There are so many subtleties, I could go on forever. I particularly like how Odin's line about how Mimir and Freya are biased against him comes out of both Heimdall and Thrud's mouths when Atreus tries to tell them the truth. It indicates Odin is planting those seeds in the heads of everyone around him to ward off the truth if it makes an incursion while he's not around.
UGH! It's just so good. They did such an incredible job depicting what it looks like when a narcissist is the head of a household.
Just beat this game a few days ago, I can’t tell you how loud I shouted “YEAH SINDRI” as he smashed Odin into pieces. Truly poetic
Odin really tried to manipulate the guy who was professionally manipulated by gods for half of his life, tried to subdue the guy who was god of war, and then tried to kill the dude who spent that other half of his life killing gods like him.