Some people just can't see past velocity and muzzle energy. IMHO bullet construction is probably the most important. The first two are CERTAINLY important but both are reliant on the projectile performing well.
@@Tony_Seed Any neither of those mean shit with a bullet not suited for the job. I can have a 300 win mag and get underpenetration with a varmint bullet or pencil through a smaller target with a FMJ or copper solid. Whats the point of that energy if you don't expend it where you need it? For decades people said that .223 5.56 was a TERRIBLE deer bullet.. mainly because of folks using prairie dog bullets. I shot a chickenhouse invader with a 69gr. match king and could barely find an exit wound. There wasn't enough opossum to get the bullet to yaw and fragment. Energy AND design dictate performance. Period, bruh.
Good video. Since the 22 wmr gold dot is intended for self defense use, I would question its use in long barrels for that purpose based on the fragmentation you got. I still can't understand how folks can compare 5.7 to 22 wmr.
Many of the folks that compare it have bolt actions or semiautos with longer barrels (like my CZ512). I chronograph these from my 18.5" threaded CZ 512 barrel at about 1900fps. It also doesn't help that Fackler compares the damage of 5.7x28mm to 22WMR as well. There is merit behind that thought process, though. Bullet construction must match the platform it's being used in. I feel like the gold dot slug used in the 5.7x28mm flavor wants to be pushed a bit faster than what's happening in the 5.7x28mm platforms. The additional speed seen in this platform may or may not translate into additional terminal effects. Many that use 22WMR are also hunters and realize that terminal ballistics do not always follow kinetic energy numbers, *especially* when small calibers are involved. I've seen numbers thrown around, but the most credible figures report that small calibers like .224 seen in this video need 2500-2600fps impact velocity in order to cause remote wounding--NOT the measly 2000fps I've seen repeated over and over. Tissue will only be displaced at about 15% of the speed of the slug moving through it. So you can forget about remote wounding in practically any FNH produced ammunition, which is likely why Fackler discounts the merit of the caliber. It would likely be a different story had he had access to some of the boutique loads we have today.
@@calangel For remote wounding, that number has been theorized as low as 1700 fps, but most seem to agree 2000+ is a good #. Is there data that seems to suggest higher is needed?
@@BuffRANGE yeah, let me get a link. In the meantime, do know that remote wounding isn't just affected by velocity...mass and bullet diameter play a role as well. A heavier bullet needs less velocity due to higher momentum and (internally) retained velocity.
@@BuffRANGE here it is: www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Effective+Game+Killing.html Go down about 1/5 to 1/4 of the way down to the section 'Mechanisms' and read down a few sections for a while until you reach 'Bullet weight vs game weights.' They've gotten their data from hunting thousands of game with different calibers and different velocities at different impact ranges. They actually confirm what you said about some figures being as low as 1700fps. Their findings are bolstered by Viper Weapons' findings as well, in that 5.7x28mm did not demonstrate any remote wounding effects in any of their loads--even in the speedy S4M.
@@calangel Federal / ATK's engineer quotes 2200 fps as the threshold for stretch to turn into a permanent wound, although I think this is a broad generalization since as you stated a .17 caliber spitzer would displace tissue far less efficiently than a .45 cal wadcutter. I timestamped the video to 5:14 for your convenience: ruclips.net/video/T6kUvi72s0Y/видео.html
You need to keep in mind that the 5.7 was never meant to shoot 40gr bullets. It was developed to shoot 28gr solids that start to tumble after 2in of penetration. Personal experience with the Military and Law enforcement ammo I can tell you it didn't matter if you hit people without armer or with armor. It tumbled after 2in no matter what you hit. That round is devastating. Out of the pistol, it defeated body armor out to 50 meters. Out of the P90 it defeated body armor out to 200 meters. The civilian ammo severely neuters the round.
Projectile design, and of course max operating pressure. 22 mag can't generate the operating pressure that 5.7 can so naturally it's velocity is going to be hampered by that. There's too many people who just think because both are .22 cal they're the same..
@@BuffRANGE the TMJ load is said to expand like a soft point against tougher stuff like hogs, that's why the hunters like it best. I'd love to see if this is true. Test it against clay or whatever.
Nice test I haven't seen many comparisons only the test by Tim on The MAC channel years ago. You do a lot of very informative tests (not that I'm an expert). I dont comment much but watch and so uh yeah keep it up and I think you're underrated for the information you provide.
Sometimes, I’m not sure if this supposed to be a caliber review, or a gun review. My concern is: can hit my target with reasonable accuracy, and is it effective when I do.
Have you ever tested any defender ammunition? I just got some 9mm 125 grain jhp from them last week. They were only 25$/ box of 50 which if they are good rounds is a very good deal. I’m gonna get to the range hopefully this month and I want to make some gel blocks to take. If they preform good than it will be a lot easier on the wallet to practice a little with them.
Buffman - R.A.N.G.E. Defenderammunition.com they do remanufactured and new ammo. They don’t load everything but they have a lot of common stuff. I’ve shot their 9mm and their 5.56 standard range loads it’s good ammo so I wanted to try some hollow points and some match stuff just haven’t made it out to the range yet.
Interesting comparison. Best comparison is BOTH using Hornady 40 gr.V-Max bullets. I have both a FN PS90 with a SPARC 2 sight and a RUGER 57, with HOLOSUN 509 T circle/dot sight. Great pistol/carbine pair. 5 mags for the FN PS90 and 3 mags for the RUGER 57. Zombies BEWARE! ("militias" too)
I would be interested to actually see what the restricted to civilian actual round, 27 grain FMJ SS192, would do in your testing. Your 22 mag is not in the same class.
@@Valorius in gel no. I have been asked too. Part of the problem is Elites pursuit of trying to improve loads. Then pulling them back and forth. IE S4UR to S4M back to now just S4. Same with all variations of T6B.
@@BuffRANGE I have a Baretta 22 pistol that has not jammed or ftf in 25 years , my friends Kel Tec can't shoot two rounds . Total pos . He has a 30 and 20 , neither will shoot more than two rounds before a jam . I can't imagine anyone who would buy one if they saw them .
@Buffman - R.A.N.G.E. A fair point is made in that the shape of the bullet has huge impact in level of armor penetration. Is there even a bullet made for the .22 WMR that is a FMJ pointed Speer type? If not I'd like to see the 5.7 with hollow points in a soft armor penetration test just so we're comparing apples to apples.
Please watch the companion video to this with the 5.7 Speer Gold Dot. There are many factors in penetration. Bullet construction plays a part as well. 22 mag bullets are not optimum design.
@@BuffRANGE videos of gel and barrier would be much needed for this caliber in any barrel length. Armor penetration is of lower priority because the bullet is of the same size as 5.7 but ~400fps faster, which puts it even more squarely between IIIa and III. Advertised velocity should be 2070fps@5" and 2800fps@22.75".
5.7 has the advantage of a more reliable priming system, higher velocity, and advanced bullet design. 22 Magnum is much cheaper, and with proper bullet design, could be almost as effective at the 5.7. The 5.7 could be loaded a bit hotter in my opinion. It honestly isn't much more powerful than the 22 Magnum.
I see 4016fps on your screen...keep telling you the internet will much appreciate a channel dedicated to ridiculously fast neck down loads ploughing through things....probably hide the fact its you lol the algorithms clearly hate you because you ouze integrity !
you got some fast arms lol...here in England our bench cannons are unrestricted ,you can exceed a 204 round for very cheap..need a long pipe tho like 30ft..only divers tank pressure nothing special..
Despite the hoopla...for less than a zombie encounter...the .22 WMR is just as effective as the 5.7. I have hunted with the 22 WMR enough to know that it is certainly capable. Carry on with the fan boy party...
If 5.7x28mm were merely a glorified 22 mag, it would have very identical performance, and it does not. 22 mag bullet construction pales into comparison to any 5.7 bullet, and a 16" 22 mag can barely produce the velocity of the 5.7 pistol..
@@BuffRANGE right, the 5.7 has a little better bullets and a little more speed.... It does better than a.22 mag can do, but not nearly double. It's still way closer in performance to a.22 mag than a.556. and it is centerfire, better than rimfire. Almost as if we took.22 mag and GLORIFIED it.
![Diggy Graves - Red Vineyard [Official Lyric Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8Ro085T0mnQ/mqdefault.jpg)
5.7x28mm is .22 WMR is one of the most persistant myths in the gun community, to this very day.
Some people just can't see past velocity and muzzle energy. IMHO bullet construction is probably the most important. The first two are CERTAINLY important but both are reliant on the projectile performing well.
“The velocity and muzzle energy thing” bruh that’s literally how bullets work.
@@Tony_Seed Any neither of those mean shit with a bullet not suited for the job. I can have a 300 win mag and get underpenetration with a varmint bullet or pencil through a smaller target with a FMJ or copper solid. Whats the point of that energy if you don't expend it where you need it?
For decades people said that .223 5.56 was a TERRIBLE deer bullet.. mainly because of folks using prairie dog bullets. I shot a chickenhouse invader with a 69gr. match king and could barely find an exit wound. There wasn't enough opossum to get the bullet to yaw and fragment.
Energy AND design dictate performance. Period, bruh.
380acp has more in common with 9mm than the 22wmr does with 5.7X28. Yet nobody seems to claim there is no difference between 9mm and 380acp.
Many people seem to think because they see “22” and the box velocity of 22 mag is so high that 5.7 must be the same thing.
Good video. Since the 22 wmr gold dot is intended for self defense use, I would question its use in long barrels for that purpose based on the fragmentation you got. I still can't understand how folks can compare 5.7 to 22 wmr.
Many of the folks that compare it have bolt actions or semiautos with longer barrels (like my CZ512). I chronograph these from my 18.5" threaded CZ 512 barrel at about 1900fps. It also doesn't help that Fackler compares the damage of 5.7x28mm to 22WMR as well. There is merit behind that thought process, though.
Bullet construction must match the platform it's being used in. I feel like the gold dot slug used in the 5.7x28mm flavor wants to be pushed a bit faster than what's happening in the 5.7x28mm platforms. The additional speed seen in this platform may or may not translate into additional terminal effects. Many that use 22WMR are also hunters and realize that terminal ballistics do not always follow kinetic energy numbers, *especially* when small calibers are involved.
I've seen numbers thrown around, but the most credible figures report that small calibers like .224 seen in this video need 2500-2600fps impact velocity in order to cause remote wounding--NOT the measly 2000fps I've seen repeated over and over. Tissue will only be displaced at about 15% of the speed of the slug moving through it. So you can forget about remote wounding in practically any FNH produced ammunition, which is likely why Fackler discounts the merit of the caliber. It would likely be a different story had he had access to some of the boutique loads we have today.
@@calangel For remote wounding, that number has been theorized as low as 1700 fps, but most seem to agree 2000+ is a good #. Is there data that seems to suggest higher is needed?
@@BuffRANGE yeah, let me get a link. In the meantime, do know that remote wounding isn't just affected by velocity...mass and bullet diameter play a role as well. A heavier bullet needs less velocity due to higher momentum and (internally) retained velocity.
@@BuffRANGE here it is: www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Effective+Game+Killing.html
Go down about 1/5 to 1/4 of the way down to the section 'Mechanisms' and read down a few sections for a while until you reach 'Bullet weight vs game weights.'
They've gotten their data from hunting thousands of game with different calibers and different velocities at different impact ranges. They actually confirm what you said about some figures being as low as 1700fps. Their findings are bolstered by Viper Weapons' findings as well, in that 5.7x28mm did not demonstrate any remote wounding effects in any of their loads--even in the speedy S4M.
@@calangel Federal / ATK's engineer quotes 2200 fps as the threshold for stretch to turn into a permanent wound, although I think this is a broad generalization since as you stated a .17 caliber spitzer would displace tissue far less efficiently than a .45 cal wadcutter. I timestamped the video to 5:14 for your convenience: ruclips.net/video/T6kUvi72s0Y/видео.html
Exactly, well said and well done. I hope this video can help put the discussion to rest.
You need to keep in mind that the 5.7 was never meant to shoot 40gr bullets. It was developed to shoot 28gr solids that start to tumble after 2in of penetration. Personal experience with the Military and Law enforcement ammo I can tell you it didn't matter if you hit people without armer or with armor. It tumbled after 2in no matter what you hit. That round is devastating. Out of the pistol, it defeated body armor out to 50 meters. Out of the P90 it defeated body armor out to 200 meters. The civilian ammo severely neuters the round.
What unit were you with? I'd be curious to see any data they collected from shootings with the round.
@@veryhappyturtle most military units don't collect shooting data at all.
@@Valorius thats the point lmao
Sounds like it has more to do with the projectile design.
Projectile design, and of course max operating pressure. 22 mag can't generate the operating pressure that 5.7 can so naturally it's velocity is going to be hampered by that. There's too many people who just think because both are .22 cal they're the same..
I haven’t even watched the video yet but no, no it’s not lol
You’d be surprised at those who think it is.
@@BuffRANGE I see them all over the comments section of every 5.7 video !
I’d be interested in seeing the CMR-30 with 40-gr FMJ and HP mini-mags against soft armor. 🤔🤷♂️
FMJ I can do. I'll see when I can put it together. ;)
@@BuffRANGE the TMJ load is said to expand like a soft point against tougher stuff like hogs, that's why the hunters like it best. I'd love to see if this is true. Test it against clay or whatever.
@@BuffRANGE I'll be looking forward to it with great anticipation. Thank you, sir. :)
@@RelationshipAndTruth I didn't forget :D ruclips.net/video/z4WzMxHjPLA/видео.html
Kel Tec will be be at the factory for repair. Pos Kel Tec will not work for more than a round or two
21” barrel minimum
Who makes 22 mag that long ?
@@BuffRANGE lol I’m messing but my savage is a 21
Nice test I haven't seen many comparisons only the test by Tim on The MAC channel years ago. You do a lot of very informative tests (not that I'm an expert). I dont comment much but watch and so uh yeah keep it up and I think you're underrated for the information you provide.
Thank you very much!
Good to see some additional testing. The folks who make that claim are leaving out several variables to come to that conclusion.
You're dead wrong! Nice. The idiots need to be rebuked occasionally. When the arthritis in my hands gets bad enough I will be getting a 5.7.
Sometimes, I’m not sure if this supposed to be a caliber review, or a gun review. My concern is: can hit my target with reasonable accuracy, and is it effective when I do.
Does your CMR30 have full auto mode? No, but it has bolt action mode.
HAHAHAHAHAH
Is it possible to load 5.7 projectiles in 223 cases?
Yes. They’re .224 diameter just like .223/5.56
Have you ever tested any defender ammunition? I just got some 9mm 125 grain jhp from them last week. They were only 25$/ box of 50 which if they are good rounds is a very good deal. I’m gonna get to the range hopefully this month and I want to make some gel blocks to take. If they preform good than it will be a lot easier on the wallet to practice a little with them.
First I'm hearing of them.
Buffman - R.A.N.G.E. Defenderammunition.com they do remanufactured and new ammo. They don’t load everything but they have a lot of common stuff. I’ve shot their 9mm and their 5.56 standard range loads it’s good ammo so I wanted to try some hollow points and some match stuff just haven’t made it out to the range yet.
No ruh ow Raggy 😂 5.7>.22 mag
Did you buy all the 5.7 ammo at Frank’s outdoors?
No, should I ?
Great video was always! What gave you the 4016 reading?
sometimes when I move the chrono it passes objects and gives false readings. I had this down at 25 yd bench then walked it back
What were 2019 prices for this Gold Dot WMR?
$14.50 a box is what I paid..
@@BuffRANGE so around 30cpr. Funny how precovid I wouldn't have dreamt paying that much for .22wmr. Now I'd gladly pay it.
Interesting comparison. Best comparison is BOTH using Hornady 40 gr.V-Max bullets.
I have both a FN PS90 with a SPARC 2 sight and a RUGER 57, with HOLOSUN 509 T circle/dot sight. Great pistol/carbine pair. 5 mags for the FN PS90 and 3 mags for the RUGER 57. Zombies BEWARE! ("militias" too)
I would be interested to actually see what the restricted to civilian actual round, 27 grain FMJ SS192, would do in your testing. Your 22 mag is not in the same class.
Ss192 is an OTM, which is the same as ss195 and as ss198LF (this is the fastest) All of them will not penetrate over 12 inches in gel.
@@BuffRANGE Elite S4M which uses the same bullet penetrated 12.1" in gel in the one round test that I saw. Did you ever test S4M yourself?
@@Valorius in gel no. I have been asked too. Part of the problem is Elites pursuit of trying to improve loads. Then pulling them back and forth. IE S4UR to S4M back to now just S4. Same with all variations of T6B.
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
I wonder if .22lr CCI copper would go thru 3A, solid copper at 1850fps Id bet it would,
Got a link to anyone who has some in stock?
Buffman - R.A.N.G.E. www.natchezss.com/cci-copper-22-rimfire-ammunition-22-lr-21-gr-chp-1850-fps-50-ct.html
It's compressed copper, I think
I’ll take them in 17HMR
You mean.. KelTec, like to choke sometimes... One reason I won't buy one.
I mean literally any rimfire gun is susceptible to jamming, and isn't unique to KelTec
@@BuffRANGE maybe so, but well made rimfires arent dubbed jamb-o-matics by the people that ahem- screw them together. Junk, wont own one #buyaruger
@@BuffRANGE I have a Baretta 22 pistol that has not jammed or ftf in 25 years , my friends Kel Tec can't shoot two rounds . Total pos . He has a 30 and 20 , neither will shoot more than two rounds before a jam . I can't imagine anyone who would buy one if they saw them .
@@torkrench smart man never seen one that could shoot more than two rounds before it jammed
@Buffman - R.A.N.G.E. A fair point is made in that the shape of the bullet has huge impact in level of armor penetration. Is there even a bullet made for the .22 WMR that is a FMJ pointed Speer type? If not I'd like to see the 5.7 with hollow points in a soft armor penetration test just so we're comparing apples to apples.
Please watch the companion video to this with the 5.7 Speer Gold Dot. There are many factors in penetration. Bullet construction plays a part as well. 22 mag bullets are not optimum design.
There are a few types of ballistic tip 22 WMR.
@@Valoriusa year late but there are 4 that I know of that are ballistic tip and advertise at 2250fps. Obviously out of my bolt action 22” barrel
@@bryantbutlermf Not bad at all for 22wmr.
Could you test the 22tcm?
Are you looking for a gel or armor test of it? Rifle length barrel or just the pistol?
@@BuffRANGE videos of gel and barrier would be much needed for this caliber in any barrel length. Armor penetration is of lower priority because the bullet is of the same size as 5.7 but ~400fps faster, which puts it even more squarely between IIIa and III.
Advertised velocity should be 2070fps@5" and 2800fps@22.75".
I would say a 5in pistol but anything is much appreciated! I would love to see a gel and armor testing done on it, thank you very much!!
5.7 has the advantage of a more reliable priming system, higher velocity, and advanced bullet design. 22 Magnum is much cheaper, and with proper bullet design, could be almost as effective at the 5.7. The 5.7 could be loaded a bit hotter in my opinion. It honestly isn't much more powerful than the 22 Magnum.
How did you get a pos Kel Tec to shoot more than one round without a jam , ftf . Never seen a worse firearm than per 30 or 20 .
I see 4016fps on your screen...keep telling you the internet will much appreciate a channel dedicated to ridiculously fast neck down loads ploughing through things....probably hide the fact its you lol the algorithms clearly hate you because you ouze integrity !
Likely it was from me moving the chrono and the shadow it created did that. I wish I had something going 4000 fps.
you got some fast arms lol...here in England our bench cannons are unrestricted ,you can exceed a 204 round for very cheap..need a long pipe tho like 30ft..only divers tank pressure nothing special..
No one is going to comment on that tactical pink phone case? 😈🥳 hee hee
#breeastcancerawarenessmonth
Hehe I took my wife's old phone for "slow Mo" use. Hard to go wrong with good battery life, and high frame rate and 720P :D
I hope Buffman tests the 22wmr Punch ammo
Is it available ?
Despite the hoopla...for less than a zombie encounter...the .22 WMR is just as effective as the 5.7. I have hunted with the 22 WMR enough to know that it is certainly capable. Carry on with the fan boy party...
I would argue the Gold Dot 5.7 proved vastly superior to the 22 mag Gold Dot.
Lol. It is just glorified .22 mag. do u not know what glorified means???
If 5.7x28mm were merely a glorified 22 mag, it would have very identical performance, and it does not. 22 mag bullet construction pales into comparison to any 5.7 bullet, and a 16" 22 mag can barely produce the velocity of the 5.7 pistol..
@@BuffRANGE right, the 5.7 has a little better bullets and a little more speed.... It does better than a.22 mag can do, but not nearly double. It's still way closer in performance to a.22 mag than a.556. and it is centerfire, better than rimfire.
Almost as if we took.22 mag and GLORIFIED it.
@@foreverjim5240 Thats like saying 300BLK is just glorified 45acp. They have nothing in common.
@@foreverjim5240 well what your saying is 5.56 is just glorified .22lr because they have a similar bullet diameter
@@motorboat3478 I feel u have completely missed the point