I had an experience where my opponent didn't understand how his Aeldari fate dice worked. I'm new, so it was hard to stand up for myself, but I'm glad I did. Looks like I'm on the right track! Keep up the great work!
Call. A. Judge. Let them sort out the rules dispute if you can’t resolve it in like 30 seconds. No use wasting time, making accusations, etc. Once the judge has been called over a few times for suspicious BS, they tend to stick around and keep an eye on the game to look for stuff like that. Explain to your opponent that rather than start an argument, it’s easier to get the judge over and make a ruling. I’ve literally NEVER had an honest opponent get upset about it. I’m there to enjoy a game of 40K. Arguing with someone over some ambiguity in a rule is a good way to ensure that no one is having fun.
While this is absolutely true. There are some people in the hobby who are naturally introverted or anxious and for them it can be extremely difficult to "cause a fuss" it's often a lot easier said than done.
You're right I think it is a genuinely difficult thing for some people to do. I have lost count of the time people complain about something after the game or even the whole event and it is because they don't want the conflict which is a shame.
Thank you - I always try to be receptive to stuff like that as it's supposed to be a nice game for both players. That's been a really helpful thing to remind myself
i will turn things around a bit. For myself, i am "new" to Warhammer. i have painted some small things in the past, nothing major. but now i am building a army for real and i am working towards the point that i can play games against other people. I am sure that i will forget things about the rules in my first games. it could be general rules or specific rules about my own army that would give my opponent an advantage when i forget them. I would like it so much when players or judges would point out the things that i am doing wrong or even forget. Im here to enjoy my time and learn the game. So help me, point me out and make me a better player. This is not only important for me, but also for the community. I can use the things i learned and apply them in other matches and use them against cheaters. We have to do it together. So its not only pointing out cheaters, but also helping fellow players to become better at the game.
Great comment thank you. It's all part of that culture crafting. Which is why having the conversation is so important when these things come up. People do just make mistakes or could be learning, like you say. But when that isn't happening it stops things getting taken too far
Had one more thought (you're getting me in a soap box). It's also important to have the same discussions internally with yourself. I am a very honest person, but sometimes, when I play, I will notice how easy it would be to sneak an extra bit of movement. I try to catch myself. I mentally call myself out. I then remember that if I win or lose, I want it to be 90% my skill at 40k and not slight of hand. (The other 10% is luck of the dice)
At the end of all things don't be afraid to scoop your models and walk away with a "loss". Losing to an invalid game state isn't losing and the only way some people will learn is if no one plays with them.
Because 40K became highly competative, cheating became a big part of the game. Look like things like the "rules as written/rules as intended" topic. And on tournements everyone is complaining about minor things, calling the juges and the judges gets exhausted by this and dont react anymore, i have seen this on baltic cup.
As an organiser and head judge for some big events here in Aus we have always tried to cultivate a culture of asking the judge is fine and not a slight on the opponent. It baffles me when I travel to play that this isn’t the norm. There should be nothing wrong in asking your opponent for rules and then if your understanding differs the asking the judge to rule it if it’s done respectfully and politely.
Right!? Preaching to the choir here - it carries this stigma that you are the bad guy for calling a judge. No way should that be the case and lovely to hear you are championing such a positive approach.
@@epicflail40ktacticsI think if players realise the rules are actually easy to muddle up and that asking questions isn’t an accusation but seeking to make sure that they don’t feel lost or cheated and to make the game easier for both players. Judges have the responsibility to rule fairly and clearly and players need to respect those calls - right or wrong (with hindsight). No judge is infallible with rules but they should be respected in their call as well. Taking the extra time - often seconds - to explain the ruling also does wonders as it becomes a teaching moment and not a you are right and they are wrong situation
One more thought i got from my friend. If you can't come to a resolution you feel fair, with out without a judge, just remember that you are the one who chooses who you play with. It might mean missing a game or a tournament, but unless you are a professional player, this should be fun.
Cool to see a face reveal. Pleasant surprise 🙂 And yes, a video about defeating space marines would be much appreciated. My main opponent is a friend I'm living with who playes marines and he tends to beat my sisters most of the time
Really appreciate this video and I’m liking your content (just found it) actually helping me with an issue at work where someone is essentially cheating on their workload!
You're right on all of it! We run some smaller events in Buffalo as Rogue Gamers & we try hard to active judge. But I hate when we have to say: "Why didn't you come get one of us!?" after the game is over. We want to help! Just ask. Please.
At first i was like maybe my own experiences are skewing my assumptions. But seeing lots of comments here and on fb it seems like a very common thing. I wish people would call it out more.
Can barely keep track of my own rules still... catching someone else is going to be rough. The obvious things are easy enough to change like how to roll and speaking via intent helps a lot for the other garbage behavior.
@@epicflail40ktacticsI guess some people don't want to come off as impolite or unknowledgeable. Basically if you want to call a judge for something the opponent declares as a fact you're basically showing that you don't trust them. Also calling a judge can cost time so I think some people wait with calling a judge until absolutely necessary (which is sometimes too late)
Interesting take. I would never consider it rude if someone called a judge, only if someone did it in a rude way. Find that mindset genuinely fascinating
@@danielhughes3758 interesting. I guess it is a price of living in a safe and nice place. In eastern europe one of the first thing you learn is to not trust people, and as you age you find that the group expends and when it reaches parents die , now we have to divide the inheritance, you find out that it includes family too.
The start of the video is why i have a zero tolerance policy for toxicity in league of legends. The only way to make it go away is have no tolerance for it.
@incursiontactics and while online is a little different than in person, it would still likely be that letting cheating slide will only lead to an increase in cheating overall. One person will try to test what more they can get by, and as others catch on they do test it as well.
Ive got a friend that always changes his mind about whete to move or direct fire when I announce Im going to use something like dark obscuration or heroic intervention. I let him do it because my victory is sweeter.
In my case, the player I was playing with in a casual championship did the following. When it was time for me to shoot at a unit or to charge him, he would say, "Okay, I wouldn't have put it here; it would have been a little further away so you wouldn't see me." He did it at least 4 times.
Woooooow! That's a new one for me. Once is forgivable but the moment it happens again we need to say. Are you happy with your movement because we can't keep taking things back! (Especially in response to how you then move)
That's why i've learnt to explain why i'm moving a unit to a certain position. ie "i'm moving this here, so that it won't be visible for you to shoot me. Can you confirm that you won't be able to see me, and that you've not got any 'gotchas' that will allow you to shoot me if i move there". By saying that, I make sure that i'm not going to get into an argument about LOS later, and also scaffold behaviours that I can then point out my opponent can use to prevent the situation you described. Winters SEO taught me that!
That is unfortunate. Did you give feedback to them after the event. I would be mortified if players thought that about one of my events and go out of my way to rectify that.
@@epicflail40ktactics the organiser was the first person asked and he said the other person knew more… I won the game in the end, but yeah. Happens often.
That's a shame. Hopefully you can find a way to politely highlight that a lack of knowledge/hesitancy has the potential to cause problems. Glad it didn't tank your game in the end though
In simple terms angle shooting is sly stuff that could be very plausible to be a mistake/innocent but if successful is gaining an advantage. Often it is not technically cheating but it is playing in a way that is pushing for an advantage you otherwise wouldn't have. Internet definition: underhanded or unethical tactics in an attempt to gain an edge against opponents. Say player A forgets to bring reserves on turn 3 and says okay shooting phase. A moment goes by then they say oh wait my reserves. I need to bring them on. Player B says, no, sorry we moved out of your movement phase and they are all dead now. Can't bring them on. Nothing actually progressed past the movement phase and player A caught that they need to bring them on and so all is well. This is angle shooting. Essentially being a bit of a chancer that player a will concede the point. Player b is technically not doing anything wrong but playing in a way that is trying to gain an advantage they shouldn't have.
@@epicflail40ktactics I think thats a bad example, that isnt angle shooting or aiming for a advantage, they arent doing anything that sits on a borderline between cheating and not. Nothing questionable there. However in a tournament if someone who isnt going to let you go back and do things you forgot to do, that isnt angle shooting. in tournaments mistakes being made effect gameplay hugely, they arent going to win any sportsmanship awards, and makes him a dick, but its not angle shooting at all. Events and games are won on mistakes being being and your opponent capitalizing on it, not everyone plays the realm of take backs and go back a phase to do stuff you forgot. This example is just poor sportsmanship. Not angle shooting.
In that example the context of the game having not progressed by any meaningful amount makes that angle shooting. No judge would force the units to be all dead in that moment if it is caught immediately. If the game had progressed and things had happened past that point then it is entirely different and I agree with what you say. So in the context of catching it immediately it is 100% angle shooting as player B is talking player A into an unnecessary situation strictly to gain an advantage. I do agree with you though if we go further into the turn it is less angle shooting and more well you forgot to do it and that is a problem now. Have you got a better example to help with the definition?
Mine is a box lid. Box lids for the win! www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/tjog-storage-box-with-lid-dark-grey-40477665/?gclsrc=aw.ds&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw48-vBhBbEiwAzqrZVPEGnCmnYYWVr-DNtu_ijNwj10K9i5y4N0y1_GR-vtBVkEckxFd9-xoCtGYQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds It's a dice tray that comes with a free box!
nice AI generated face you've got there! The advice to keep calm is key. How to do that is the trick. finding a way to see them as funny in their pathetic behaviour will make you feel better.
Here , where we are less nice, if you cheated the orgs will name the cheater . Very fast everyone knows you, including outside of the game you are playing. At it is at all levels, store games, events, big tournaments. Cheated in w40k? Ain't switching without warmahordes people knowing you . This has two effects , those that are psychos and would cheat no matter what, have to be REALLY good at it or it is out in the public. People that may get a stupid idea to cheat in a store game get it explained to them, if this us the fate they want. Main two problems l see with cheating in the west is that A judges don't stop games&kick people out with reactions often being post tournament, and only if the person cheats on top tables. Can't remember a single cheater get kicked out , since the early 90s, who was bottom tables or lower. B is that it is not just the judges, people don't call out cheaters. You give people this "benefit of doubt" and they hope from store to store, from local to local even slowly cheating their way through games. And then when they hit big 200 peeps events , everyone acts suprised . Even those that know the player had a "reputation". But it ain't no reputation when a lot if judges/opponents don't know about it. You litteraly let psychos ruin communities , because you are too nice and don't want to be mean. While the psychos, being psychos have zero qualms to do their thing.
In most situations I appear sufficiently human. I am told this is the benchmark. Please conform to peer majority and accept that I am human. Resistance is futile.
Well said , a lot of people mix emotion to their games, make it harder to enjoy the game
Thank you. And yes! I've witnessed some devastated people at events and it is not healthy to invest so much in the outcome of a dice based game!
I had an experience where my opponent didn't understand how his Aeldari fate dice worked. I'm new, so it was hard to stand up for myself, but I'm glad I did. Looks like I'm on the right track! Keep up the great work!
Thanks! So important to speak up if not sure nicely done!
"I'm just a normal man" thats exactly what a robot pretending to be a man would say
*nervous beeping
Yeah, I smell robot!
Great timing with Adepticon right around the corner. First time at a big big event like that. Great vid.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!
You're going to have *a lot* of fun! Get there early if you want a parking spot lol
Call. A. Judge.
Let them sort out the rules dispute if you can’t resolve it in like 30 seconds. No use wasting time, making accusations, etc. Once the judge has been called over a few times for suspicious BS, they tend to stick around and keep an eye on the game to look for stuff like that. Explain to your opponent that rather than start an argument, it’s easier to get the judge over and make a ruling. I’ve literally NEVER had an honest opponent get upset about it. I’m there to enjoy a game of 40K. Arguing with someone over some ambiguity in a rule is a good way to ensure that no one is having fun.
Rigghhht!? This guy gets it!
While this is absolutely true. There are some people in the hobby who are naturally introverted or anxious and for them it can be extremely difficult to "cause a fuss" it's often a lot easier said than done.
You're right I think it is a genuinely difficult thing for some people to do. I have lost count of the time people complain about something after the game or even the whole event and it is because they don't want the conflict which is a shame.
I love how you took a bit of yourself, your feedback and how that situation developed, absolute ace!
Thank you - I always try to be receptive to stuff like that as it's supposed to be a nice game for both players. That's been a really helpful thing to remind myself
i will turn things around a bit. For myself, i am "new" to Warhammer. i have painted some small things in the past, nothing major. but now i am building a army for real and i am working towards the point that i can play games against other people. I am sure that i will forget things about the rules in my first games. it could be general rules or specific rules about my own army that would give my opponent an advantage when i forget them. I would like it so much when players or judges would point out the things that i am doing wrong or even forget. Im here to enjoy my time and learn the game. So help me, point me out and make me a better player. This is not only important for me, but also for the community. I can use the things i learned and apply them in other matches and use them against cheaters. We have to do it together. So its not only pointing out cheaters, but also helping fellow players to become better at the game.
Great comment thank you. It's all part of that culture crafting. Which is why having the conversation is so important when these things come up. People do just make mistakes or could be learning, like you say. But when that isn't happening it stops things getting taken too far
Had one more thought (you're getting me in a soap box). It's also important to have the same discussions internally with yourself.
I am a very honest person, but sometimes, when I play, I will notice how easy it would be to sneak an extra bit of movement. I try to catch myself. I mentally call myself out. I then remember that if I win or lose, I want it to be 90% my skill at 40k and not slight of hand. (The other 10% is luck of the dice)
Yeeeeep! As Dumbledore said: "we have to choose between what is right, and what is easy."
At the end of all things don't be afraid to scoop your models and walk away with a "loss". Losing to an invalid game state isn't losing and the only way some people will learn is if no one plays with them.
Genuinely think this is a powerful thing to do in non-event situations (culture crafting, etc etc). Change your ways or nobody will play you.
Because 40K became highly competative, cheating became a big part of the game. Look like things like the "rules as written/rules as intended" topic. And on tournements everyone is complaining about minor things, calling the juges and the judges gets exhausted by this and dont react anymore, i have seen this on baltic cup.
Judge fatigue! That's an interesting one
As an organiser and head judge for some big events here in Aus we have always tried to cultivate a culture of asking the judge is fine and not a slight on the opponent. It baffles me when I travel to play that this isn’t the norm. There should be nothing wrong in asking your opponent for rules and then if your understanding differs the asking the judge to rule it if it’s done respectfully and politely.
Right!? Preaching to the choir here - it carries this stigma that you are the bad guy for calling a judge. No way should that be the case and lovely to hear you are championing such a positive approach.
@@epicflail40ktacticsI think if players realise the rules are actually easy to muddle up and that asking questions isn’t an accusation but seeking to make sure that they don’t feel lost or cheated and to make the game easier for both players.
Judges have the responsibility to rule fairly and clearly and players need to respect those calls - right or wrong (with hindsight). No judge is infallible with rules but they should be respected in their call as well. Taking the extra time - often seconds - to explain the ruling also does wonders as it becomes a teaching moment and not a you are right and they are wrong situation
Couldn't agree more!
One more thought i got from my friend. If you can't come to a resolution you feel fair, with out without a judge, just remember that you are the one who chooses who you play with. It might mean missing a game or a tournament, but unless you are a professional player, this should be fun.
Exactly
Cool to see a face reveal. Pleasant surprise 🙂
And yes, a video about defeating space marines would be much appreciated. My main opponent is a friend I'm living with who playes marines and he tends to beat my sisters most of the time
Thank you! Will cogitate on this
Really appreciate this video and I’m liking your content (just found it) actually helping me with an issue at work where someone is essentially cheating on their workload!
Thank you! I'm glad it's useful :)
Man-robot confirmed. Great advice, thanks for “confronting” the issues.
No worries!
All Tournaments should use Dice trays for rolling so people don't have chance to roll behind terrain
People seem weirdly resistant to them
Dice trays are just good practice honestly.
You're right on all of it! We run some smaller events in Buffalo as Rogue Gamers & we try hard to active judge. But I hate when we have to say: "Why didn't you come get one of us!?" after the game is over. We want to help! Just ask. Please.
At first i was like maybe my own experiences are skewing my assumptions. But seeing lots of comments here and on fb it seems like a very common thing. I wish people would call it out more.
Good vid thanks man. Solid advice.
Thanks!
Can barely keep track of my own rules still... catching someone else is going to be rough. The obvious things are easy enough to change like how to roll and speaking via intent helps a lot for the other garbage behavior.
Indeed. Most of us won't know every single rule but yes doing what we can to establish intent is massive
people also afriad to call judge
I know, right? But why?
@@epicflail40ktacticswell for some reason people are afriad to call one
@@epicflail40ktacticsI guess some people don't want to come off as impolite or unknowledgeable. Basically if you want to call a judge for something the opponent declares as a fact you're basically showing that you don't trust them. Also calling a judge can cost time so I think some people wait with calling a judge until absolutely necessary (which is sometimes too late)
Interesting take. I would never consider it rude if someone called a judge, only if someone did it in a rude way. Find that mindset genuinely fascinating
@@danielhughes3758 interesting. I guess it is a price of living in a safe and nice place. In eastern europe one of the first thing you learn is to not trust people, and as you age you find that the group expends and when it reaches parents die , now we have to divide the inheritance, you find out that it includes family too.
The start of the video is why i have a zero tolerance policy for toxicity in league of legends. The only way to make it go away is have no tolerance for it.
Yeah. That's the biggest part of all this for me. Inaction is acceptance. It won't go away just because we want it to.
@incursiontactics and while online is a little different than in person, it would still likely be that letting cheating slide will only lead to an increase in cheating overall. One person will try to test what more they can get by, and as others catch on they do test it as well.
Absolutely!
Ive got a friend that always changes his mind about whete to move or direct fire when I announce Im going to use something like dark obscuration or heroic intervention. I let him do it because my victory is sweeter.
What a flex. Mwahaha! Have it mate! I will crush you regardless!
In my case, the player I was playing with in a casual championship did the following. When it was time for me to shoot at a unit or to charge him, he would say, "Okay, I wouldn't have put it here; it would have been a little further away so you wouldn't see me." He did it at least 4 times.
Woooooow! That's a new one for me. Once is forgivable but the moment it happens again we need to say. Are you happy with your movement because we can't keep taking things back! (Especially in response to how you then move)
That's why i've learnt to explain why i'm moving a unit to a certain position. ie "i'm moving this here, so that it won't be visible for you to shoot me. Can you confirm that you won't be able to see me, and that you've not got any 'gotchas' that will allow you to shoot me if i move there". By saying that, I make sure that i'm not going to get into an argument about LOS later, and also scaffold behaviours that I can then point out my opponent can use to prevent the situation you described. Winters SEO taught me that!
I'm all about that! Get it confirmed so both parties know what's what.
I’ve called a judge several times and they’re just clueless… scared to make a decision that changes the status quo of the game.
That is unfortunate. Did you give feedback to them after the event. I would be mortified if players thought that about one of my events and go out of my way to rectify that.
@@epicflail40ktactics the organiser was the first person asked and he said the other person knew more… I won the game in the end, but yeah. Happens often.
That's a shame. Hopefully you can find a way to politely highlight that a lack of knowledge/hesitancy has the potential to cause problems. Glad it didn't tank your game in the end though
I find for some including my self i am unaware of cheats as i don't know the rules, costs, for every unit in every codex of by heart.
That is a very real thing that can sadly be taken advantage of
I definitely thought you were a robot. Just subscribed now that I know you aren't a robot.
Foolish human! I mean, thanks for the support :)
Looking good luke
Thanks mate!
Can you explain angle shooting, it never seems to make sense to me
In simple terms angle shooting is sly stuff that could be very plausible to be a mistake/innocent but if successful is gaining an advantage. Often it is not technically cheating but it is playing in a way that is pushing for an advantage you otherwise wouldn't have. Internet definition: underhanded or unethical tactics in an attempt to gain an edge against opponents. Say player A forgets to bring reserves on turn 3 and says okay shooting phase. A moment goes by then they say oh wait my reserves. I need to bring them on. Player B says, no, sorry we moved out of your movement phase and they are all dead now. Can't bring them on. Nothing actually progressed past the movement phase and player A caught that they need to bring them on and so all is well. This is angle shooting. Essentially being a bit of a chancer that player a will concede the point. Player b is technically not doing anything wrong but playing in a way that is trying to gain an advantage they shouldn't have.
@@epicflail40ktactics I think thats a bad example, that isnt angle shooting or aiming for a advantage, they arent doing anything that sits on a borderline between cheating and not. Nothing questionable there. However in a tournament if someone who isnt going to let you go back and do things you forgot to do, that isnt angle shooting. in tournaments mistakes being made effect gameplay hugely, they arent going to win any sportsmanship awards, and makes him a dick, but its not angle shooting at all. Events and games are won on mistakes being being and your opponent capitalizing on it, not everyone plays the realm of take backs and go back a phase to do stuff you forgot. This example is just poor sportsmanship. Not angle shooting.
In that example the context of the game having not progressed by any meaningful amount makes that angle shooting. No judge would force the units to be all dead in that moment if it is caught immediately.
If the game had progressed and things had happened past that point then it is entirely different and I agree with what you say. So in the context of catching it immediately it is 100% angle shooting as player B is talking player A into an unnecessary situation strictly to gain an advantage.
I do agree with you though if we go further into the turn it is less angle shooting and more well you forgot to do it and that is a problem now.
Have you got a better example to help with the definition?
The only reason I don't use a dice tray, is because I'm a lazy idiot who should buy one. They are super handy.
Mine is a box lid. Box lids for the win!
www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/tjog-storage-box-with-lid-dark-grey-40477665/?gclsrc=aw.ds&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw48-vBhBbEiwAzqrZVPEGnCmnYYWVr-DNtu_ijNwj10K9i5y4N0y1_GR-vtBVkEckxFd9-xoCtGYQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
It's a dice tray that comes with a free box!
nice AI generated face you've got there! The advice to keep calm is key. How to do that is the trick. finding a way to see them as funny in their pathetic behaviour will make you feel better.
Haha thanks! Yeah it is tough and everyone is different in their approach and when you are in these situations it can be very difficult to navigate
Hmm, a normal man? Looks very Necrony to me 😉 - Jimotekh the Warmlord (me)
Beep boop
@@epicflail40ktactics oh no! Not a Necron, a Servitor! Ahhhhh
Here , where we are less nice, if you cheated the orgs will name the cheater . Very fast everyone knows you, including outside of the game you are playing. At it is at all levels, store games, events, big tournaments. Cheated in w40k? Ain't switching without warmahordes people knowing you . This has two effects , those that are psychos and would cheat no matter what, have to be REALLY good at it or it is out in the public. People that may get a stupid idea to cheat in a store game get it explained to them, if this us the fate they want. Main two problems l see with cheating in the west is that A judges don't stop games&kick people out with reactions often being post tournament, and only if the person cheats on top tables. Can't remember a single cheater get kicked out , since the early 90s, who was bottom tables or lower. B is that it is not just the judges, people don't call out cheaters. You give people this "benefit of doubt" and they hope from store to store, from local to local even slowly cheating their way through games. And then when they hit big 200 peeps events , everyone acts suprised . Even those that know the player had a "reputation". But it ain't no reputation when a lot if judges/opponents don't know about it. You litteraly let psychos ruin communities , because you are too nice and don't want to be mean. While the psychos, being psychos have zero qualms to do their thing.
1000%
incursion tactics how do I know you aren't just an ai deepfaked video ?? still could be a robot !
In most situations I appear sufficiently human. I am told this is the benchmark. Please conform to peer majority and accept that I am human. Resistance is futile.
Can we see your rage face that's caused so much upset please?
Hahaha!
when is the only fans coming?
Hahahaha!