Rivals 2 - Is Crouch Cancelling Too Good?
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- Опубликовано: 28 июл 2024
- Is crouch cancelling BROKEN in the Rivals 2 beta? Or are we all just bad?
My magnum opus. This video is the largest creative project I've ever made. It ended up being way bigger than I expected. It turned into quite the project - a video essay, tutorial, critique, defense, AND an ad - for Rivals 2. I think you can tell that I'm really excited about the game.
I hope that this was informative and entertaining. I probably won't make a video this long ever again, but I do plan on making a lot more stuff for Rivals 2! I also plan to stream a lot when it comes out :)
Follow me on Twitch : / imhyperflame
Follow me on Twitter: / imhyperflame
0:00 - Intro
1:57 - PART 1: System Mechanics
2:01 - Hitlag
2:31 - DI
2:49 - SSDI
3:52 - ASDI
4:58 - CC & Floorhugging
6:23 - PART 2: Why is floorhugging so good?
6:27 - Weak attacks
8:11 - Tumble threshold
8:47 - CC on Frame 1
9:21 - ASDI is too strong
9:53 - Ground Collision Detection
10:53 - The real reason it's OP
11:29 - PART 3: Why floorhugging is a good mechanic
13:30 - PART 4: How to beat floorhugging
15:17 - PART 5: Conclusion 
Игры
cancel culture has gone too far
cancel culture has come for crouch canceling
Well that's gotta be the best comment
But who invented it?
This is such a good comment that I wanna steal the joke
😂
"but first, we need to talk about Parallel Universes"
So good lmfao
This might be the best, most in-depth video surrounding the ASDI/CC/Floorhugging mechanics in R2 we've had. And the editing is top notch too!
Extremely well structured video, and clearly shows that you're knowledgable and experienced. Really appreciate that a video like this exists that has solid, complete information on how these mechanics work and how they're being tweaked. Very well done.
I agree! Its so refreshing to have a video like this.
Followed instructions and got confused, now the floor won't stop hugging ME!
My brain... its getting bigger WITH KNOWLEDGE
Loved this, great video dude
Glad you liked it! Your videos were an inspiration 😁
RUclips out of nowhere with the top notch content from one of my favourite players from PM's prime.
Boy do I miss being in college in 2014-2015.
Rivals seems neat though!
I wasnt a fan of the art style honestly
But watching it in motion.. holy shit
I want to play it now
I Hope the roster is good/likeable
Never thought of this style of defense as a comeback mechanic. Great vid, love all the extra game footage of stuff I hadn’t seen yet
Also spikes beating floor hug is a cool iteration on high-low mix in FGs
How is this your first video in 7 years? It has the feel of something someone with a lot of experience in making this kind of content puts out. Obviously super high effort and it pays off
Thanks! Technically, I made the Project+ trailer too! But that's still a 4 year gap, lol
Wow this is such an incredible video. Informative, great editing and audio, wow. Everyone In this community needs to sub right now. Thank you for this bro
I clicked the video and was like, "Ha. This dude kinda sounds like HyperFlame." Then 1:04 hit, and i was like 😮
After 7 years the legend returns
:)
Holy... By far one of the best Rivals 2 videos out there to date. I love the in-depth analysis you do and then explain further using your own experience. Just, top notch stuff right there.
Closing thoughts were so real -- it's a new game, let the devs cook! For real, though, it could be so much worse... I'm super excited to have a platform fighter that SLAPS this hard with a dev team that legitimately cares. Hopefully casuals will also latch on and it'll blow up the way we all pray for it to.
Great edits, great sound balance, great structure, really enjoyed the video and I hope you'll keep this kind of content up! Really awesome to see you competing again as well, KING!
Hey, i popped into your stream last beta. Great vid! As someone who went from rivals 1 to rivals 2, I'm among the crowd that feels confident in saying that aether studios is on their way to making the best plat fighter ever and just need a bit more time fine-tuning the mechanics. I realize that a lot of my mistakes and losses are coming from either bad habits or a lack of knowledge surrounding the system itself. Hope that folks in the rivals community don't throw too much heat your way for the last comment, some folks are mad that people are saying that "the game just isn't for them." It's a complicated subject and I don't necessarily think they're wrong for feeling that way, but I hope they can come around to appreciating what Rivals 2 will have to offer once the game is completely released.
is this the project m lucas dude
Subscribed! As a casual player dipping my toes into competitive platfighting, this is a fantastic video! No ragebait, good production, and you actually know what you're talking about. Looking forward to more content for R2 :)
This is a great video, by a very talented player, and with superb video editing. I'm leaving a comment in the hope RUclips decides to blast this video on every single human being's front page.
But to actually engage with the content of the video:
I used to play Ivysaur in PM, a character especially weak to ASDI Down because she had a very slow grab, and a ton of multihit moves. It wasn't so bad for our aerials since we can drift in the air to follow our opponent's SDI, but we also had a couple ground-based multihits like ftilt, dtilt and jab, which were extremely weak to ASDI Down in most versions of the game.
We did a lot of research on how to play around CC, for example by whiffing the first few hits of our multihit moves on purpose to give the opponent less time to ASDI Down. And we had a bunch of charts, for every single hitbox of every single one of our moves, and against every single character, of percentages after which using that hitbox became safe. I had to keep that file up to date with each balance patch, it was a whole ordeal.
So yeah, nerds like me can definitely play around it. But... I think I'd still rather we didn't have to, to be honest. Shields are already a thing, and crouch cancel doesn't feel meaningfully different in its intent - all it does is that it reduces the design space of the game, by making large swathes of multihit move ideas completely unviable. In fact, PM's devs realized that being able to ASDI out of Ivysaur's ftilt as a reaction to being hit by it, was not great game design, so they fixed it... Three times, because they kept accidentally un-fixing it with further updates. That's the kind of fragility this mechanic brings to the game designers, that is not sustainable in the long term in my opinion.
Even if counterplay exists, a mechanic needs to justify its existence, and bring something new to the table from a game design standpoint imo. And I'm not convinced that is the case for CC/ASDI Down. PM/P+ made the promise of emulating Melee's exact gameplay, so we were kind of stuck with that, but Rivals 2 has made no such promise and doen't have to carry that baggage if it doesn't want to.
Competitive games are already fighting an uphill battle in terms of how hard it is to get people to try them out - I don't think we can really afford to have mechanics like these, which have a strong chance to turn new players away. To survive and thrive, I think games like ours have to work hard and try their best to earn the engagement of its players, rather than assume or demand it.
excellent video, breaking the issue into different parts to make viewers understand how it works and theorizing solutions for it
"hyperflame... Why does that name sound familiar" *sees lucas and gets activated like a sleeper agent as a hundred hours of pm combo videos flash before my eyes*
Yoo just found your channel after seeing a decades worth of your lucas play. Great video!
Such a good video! A great, nuanced take with well thought out and informative arguments. Great to see you back, Hyperflame!
Did a great job with this, looking forward to where you go from here!
Great video! I'll definitely send it to my non-melee/P+ playing friends that are trying out RoA2 and haven't experienced cc before.
Such clean editing, really great video!
great video! as someone who has always heard these terms but never really understood them this video was SO informative and easy to understand. When you said you were working on a video I didnt think it would be like THIS, you popped off.
Really well edited informative and super good insight from a different perspective than most rivals 2 players! Excited to see some more Rivals 2 content from you in the future
Fantastic video, great editing and explanations
This was a masterfully crafted video, good lord!
The information, the delivery, and the visuals are all on-point.
Educational and concise!
I'm convinced there can not be a better video on the current situation of crouch-canceling in Rivals 2.
I can't even imagine the amount of work it took to make this.
As a fellow long time PM player who immediately fell in love with Rivals 2, consider me a fan of this video and now your channel!
I started noticing how strong cc was and began to opt in more grabs and jab poke > WD back or spot dodge. Just had to adapt. Rivals 2 is def not Rivals 1, but Im loving every second of it. As much as I loved R1.
Amazing vid! Hope to see more in the future.
great video! i love cc/asdi down in p+ and this vid helped me figure out what was different. its def tru that cc helps aggressive play, it makes the scrap super fun
Just wanted to agree with all the other comments - great vid! Super comprehensive and well reasoned, and definitely appreciate the direct comparisons across games as a Melee player who's been interested in/following Rivals for a good while. Thanks!
Instant sub. Looking forward to more good content man!
Glad to see you're still making content
This video honestly explains so much as to why I struggled with low percent combos as Wrastor when I first played the game.
After playing for a bit I started to realize how to counter it, but off first impressions this explains why starting a combo felt so much harder without taking advantage of grabs, thanks for the explanation!
Super looking forward to more Rivals content!
my main issue with floor hugging in rivals 2 is really just how it forces a lot of neutral interactions into being about fishing for grabs, it makes interactions feel a bit samey, kinda like how out of shield just feels like its about hoping the opponent messes up spacing and you can grab them, it lacks a lot in variety, I dont want it to go away, I just want it to be toned down maybe make more moves able to cut through it earlier. For instance, ranno dtilt could be good for it in the way sheik dtilt was at dealing with it? I mean I think it already does but it would be nice if it did it a little better lol
the backer tournament today I think confirmed that they're currently trying to implement reason #3 from your conclusion, or crouch canceling only being active during the full crouch. I really like the optimism in your video, generally I have seen a lot of positivity, but the top level rivals community has thrown a lot of shade around
wow. just wanted to say that this video was put together so so well and organized and this is the most gameplay ive seen from the game. looks super good and cant wait to get my hands on it. very very exciting. well done again on the presentation
Dude great content!
Easiest way to balance crouch-cancelling is to give every character Peach dsmash
I wasn't even aware Rivals was getting a sequel but this looks so good. Nothing against the first one it had it's merits but this art style is so much more intuitive. Animations look smooth and the effects are looking solid from what I see so far. Thanks for putting me onto this, as an old PM player this looks fantastic. Also a really well made video and your passion for the game is clearly visible, good stuff!
damn this is a good video, everything so clearly articulated! good work!
This video was incredible. Your knowledge and experience shines through in the clear and detailed explanation of the mechanics.
Wow, really well made video, very in depth but to the point at the same time
I am way too Street Fighter 6 pilled right now. My mind immediately went to crouching medium kick driverush cancel
Very informative and entertaining video (I also got bored one time and coded ASDI down into rivals 1 using a buddy that i uploaded to the workshop, adequately labeled as the "ASDI Down Buddy")
I can see how its a good defensive option to help stop spamming but wouldn't it almost makes certain parts of characters kit useless if you can't even pop an enemy into a combo until 170% damage, that is just ridiculous.
also speaking from a very casual and not very good platform fighting player, (and after watching the complete video and seeing that they are actually working on it) , if its so easy to do couldn't that lead to essentially a skill check or skill floor where you have to be able to deal with CC or floor hugging to have any sort of success online if you opponent if area then can just hold down on the controller during lower precents. All this is coming from a very uneducated fighting game background and merely questions on how it could negatively affect players with lower skill or those who have not played fighting games with this mechanic at a pro or highly competitive level.
Amazing video, man. I remember copying everything your Lucas was doing back in the day when I played Project M haha. Rivals 2 is sick, and I agree it's poised to be the best Plat Fighter on the market if people give it a fair shot. Subscribed, and looking forward to more content!
Thank you for this. I feel much more educated on the subject as before I felt like I couldn't even form an opinion. Well done!
His hair looks like a Lego peace
this is my first time seeing rivals two and i never dreamed it would look this CRISP
fantastic video, great work!
Dude thank you!!! I’ve been wondering about exactly how CC works!!! This is exactly what I needed.
Your late comment on now having grabd in rivals is such a good reminder of a meta shift. As a melee shiek player i love the defense vs grab fight, early stocks in melee became less who get first hit into who gets the right kind of hit. Really makes every game not become who can throw out enough modes till one lands into punishing bad attacks and earning smart hits.
Prob could use some balancing, of less floorhugging and helping characters have hetter hit options. So excited for future of the game
great video, I loved your Lucas back in the day.
amazing video. I didn't know there was so much depth into crouch canceling.
i think its time we redo all this asdi and ssdi. shits confusing as hell
Excellent video, the content is informative, the editing is clean and supportive of the information displayed. I hope this video makes rivals 2 as awesome as it can be on release!
I feel like reason 2 of tumble threshold being too high is the biggest issue. If they are concerned about tech chases, they should consider making techrolls faster or further to compensate.
very nicely done
seeing a 3d rivals of aether game in 2024 after my last interaction with the game being oris release is genuinely the most unexpected thing i couldve thought of to see this year
This felt like watching a Direct. High quality and thorough video.
great video!
Love the details you go into. Makes me miss the hard analytical side of Smash. Great stuff
This is so helpful, thank you.
HYPERGOAT
this is too complicated for me, but I'm glad people care.
I was wondering though, what if in addition to teching, characters also have a special tech that specifically counters techchasing? It would be a tech that, if no chasing happens, is vulnerable to any other move.
fire content. hoping for more
Just tell the Ganon spamming down B "Screw your CC" and keep them in the air
ngl rivals 2 is looking like it will become THE platform fighter
Man fighting games get so crazy for the fast reactions and decision making you need at high levels. Makes the twitchy side of LOL look chill. I'm probably too old to get very good at Rivals 2, but its the 2nd fighting game I'm going to get into. Played some version of super smash bro's super casual when I was a kid.
all i took from this video is that platform fighters finally have overheads and i think thats a great thing
Amazing video. Thanks
Great video loved how you explained all this tech, think the background music was a bit too loud tho
it's a long time melee player, the rivals series has been the only one that's captured the smoothness in animation that melee had.
I love p+, but the animation sometimes feels stiff/sharp.
I started playing rivals 1 when it was in Early Access and really enjoyed it. trying to play it nowadays feels as one touch as dive kick.
I get that a lot of rivals ones player base enjoys that, but I'm happy to have a game that blends beautiful animation, interesting characters, and a plethora of defensive options to balance the strict offense
Great video on a great game!
Great video subscribed.
You scared the shit out of me when you said you needed to talk about alternet universes
Amazing video
I need to actually play the beta, I gave them money but never went through the process of getting it. I'll do so now, thanks for the motivation!
well made vid!
Cannot wait for this game
Finally a voice of reason... great video!
great video! im glad this discussion is getting such a nuanced look in the community. i really only have one major counterpoint, being that i think the fact that grabs beat floorhugging is actually a pretty major problem
(note that at this point, i'm really not trying to argue with the entire video so much as i am this one thing)
so like
for me so far, low-percent neutral in this game has basically been just "run away and look for grabs"
with how the game is currently balanced, grab is really the only consistent way to start your gameplan without fighting for pokes until the mid-percents, and for a lot of people (myself included), that sort of gameplay really isn't that fun
all of the rest of the "my turn" tools in the game dont get you enough reward for how much you risk trying to land them, and for people who like big flashy advantage states and quick phase transitions, that's really not a great thing. however, it clearly isn't so much an issue with crouch canceling as it is the core game systems, meaning its something dan and the team very clearly intended for the game -- essentially, those people just have to suck it up (dan has even said as much, i believe)
however, i can't help but feel that floorhugging is a very weird wrench to throw in the mix here
its just... well, you argue that its supposed to be a defensive tool to help prevent mashy neutral, but honestly, shields mightve been more than enough for that. comparatively speaking, adding the extra option just makes everything harder to handle for everyone, and personally, i think it's a rather inelegant solution to a design problem that could've been solved in much more intuitive ways. and, as an additional side effect, its another reason to either go for grab or run away and poke. it's incessantly polarizing.
from an overall perspective, i think it'd be much better if the game could choose either slower neutral or less dominant advantage states -- because right now, it looks like the devs tried to choose both, and a bunch of wires (namely grabs) got crossed in the mix
my suggestion would be that you should be able to crouch under grabs
mostly because of the issues i just described, but also.... because it looks awesome
....
so obviously that'd make CC and floorhugging and stuff overwhelming broken, but i think the issue isn't with them so much as it is the rest of the aggressive options in the game. if we buff all of those in such a way that gives shielding a reason to be preferred in the right scenario (spikes are a good option here), and leave crouching the way it is, we'd be able to experience a much more diverse neutral game
anyway yea thats my two cents here
rivals player here and THIS VIDEO IS FRIGGIN AMAZING!!
"rivals player here" bro you're top 3 in the world, that's you in GRAND FINALS @ 11:34, I think you're a little more than just a player lmaooo
great vid
kudos
My man! The goat Lucas HYPER!!!❤❤❤❤
The goat uploaded
I'm all for this mechanic just being removed. I feel like having it only serves to cheapen the parry mechanic.
its been 3000 years...
When he said “skill issue” I felt that
great video goat
👍
bro locked in after 7 years
Okay I know this is a stupid question, but why would someone CC when they can just shield? I don't understand the mechanic enough so I'm genuinely curious.
In most cases shielding an attack results in a pretty high amount of lag. Say you block an attack with shield and the opponent spaces it such that they are outside of grab range. To punish, you have to wait out the shield lag, unshield, and punish (unless you can punish with an arial which is unlikely). With cc you pretty much experience no lag since it gets cancelled almost immediately, which means you can punish quicker and with stronger moves.
First video in 7 years? Never played Rivals but I'm a Melee player. This game looks interesting
Can you still back the kickstarter for beta access? I checked and it won't let me.