Why Troy Worked
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- This video is dedicated to my brother Paddy Lyons, the real life Achilles
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And many thanks to @ReviewsWithAL_ for providing that voiceover for Brad Pitt's quote in his melodic Yorkshire accent XD
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UPDATE: The user who left the comment about Hector losing to Achilles is @rishiraj1616. Had his comment screenshotted and forgot about it.
Just for the hell of it, I would like to point out that this is one of the few films where Sean Bean doesn't die.
Flightplan, The Martian and Jupiter Ascending are the ones I've seen where he doesn't
@@BetterWithBob still feel sorry for him though since he can't keep a job cause he's always dying lol
@@BetterWithBob He's in The Hitman game as a Rich Tycoon
And yes he "dies" in it too
he's one of the only ones to even survive.
He survived in Bravo Two Zero. And it's a war movie.
Pitt's indifference at times seemed in tune with his jaded Achilles character, so that worked out fine
Absolutely.
I actually don’t mind that Brad Pitt wasn’t that into the role. I think it mirrors his character as Achilles because Achilles is also getting burned out from being a warrior and is questioning his purpose and the utility of war. The irony of Brad Pitt perhaps seeming less that thrilled to be there is exactly how Achilles was feeling at the end of his career too
That's an interesting point others have made as well
I thought the same but I think it's both. I mean the opening scene shows pitts bare ass lying in bed next to 2 girls. So it probably wasn't the dramatic tragic epic Pitt imagined. But as Achilles lost his blood lust and fools hunt for glory after being with Cassandra, respecting hector and meeting a real king in Priam. The actual Pitt probably gave it his all for the likes of bana and their duel and respect for actors like Cox and O'Toole and Sean Bean of course
No he really wasn't.
True I always felt like Achilleus/Brad Pitt idc attitude was on purpose it just worked in this role.
That's why I never noticed that he wasn't fully into it. I never even thought of it because I just figured that was the characters attitude not brads
I'm in the 'gods were real' camp with this film. And Brad Pitt may have some flat lines in it but his sociopathic stare was perfect as a killer demigod with a huge ego.
I believe they're real in the film too
One commdnt I read states When he cuts off Apollos statues head then dies by an arrow they say Apollo guided that arrow as revenge for descerating his Temple. His fellow soldier even warned him saying "Apollo sees all".
@@patrickirish8091 Achilles desecrating the temple of Apollo is the event that set his doom in motion and this is clearly portrayed in the film. The gods are definitely real in this movie, they just arent on screen much
The intent may not have been there but it’s definitely a possibility
@@BetterWithBob I mean in the film Achilles pretty much settles it, he says something along the line of "I know more of the Gods then you ever will... I've met them".
One of the few movies I wouldn’t be mad about a sequel coming out to, always wanted to see a Sean Bean-led Odyssey movie
Yeah he could lobby for it now he's got the clout from GOT
Odysseus would get killed…
Jokes aside, would love to see Sean Bean do that movie too
I totally understand why they didn't thou. Part of the magic in this adaptation of the Ilyad is that we never directly see the gods or other mythological beings.
It can be as realistic as it could have the gods pulling strings unseen. And the unknown creates this tension and athmosphere.
Is Achilles an actual demi gid here? He could be. Did Apollo and others influence events like in the Ilyad? Maybe?
But in the Odyssey everything is directly tied to Gods and Beasts of the mythos. So you'd be forced to take away from the first movies open possebilities. CGI and what not.
@@TrafalgarWaterDLaw-dl5cm
You could have all the machinations of the gods hidden behind a veil unseen by the audience/characters. The monsters and such would be cool with modern AI enhanced stop motion.
@@BetterWithBob the sad part : WB did have plans for an Odyssey movie after Troy turned out to be the highest grossing sword and sandal movie to date.
...they just didn't have any such plans that were related to this version in particular.
the list of attempts so far :
-2008 : a space version. with George miller approached. under brad Pitt's company Plan B, because chance has a sense of humor.
-2009 : a different version, produced by Gianni Nunnari (who was fresh off 300), and written by Ann Peacock . to be directed by Jonathan liebesman (who had yet to be assigned to Wrath of the titans. and would also pitch a Julius caesar movie for Warner later on)
-2013 : still the space version. but with David heyman co-producing.
-2014 : still the version on earth with Gianni Nunnari, now co-written by Jeremy doner *, and for director they hired... ...Fedor Bondachurk.
yup. that one.
* doner who had then submitted to WB a Napoleon script described as scarface-like. initially meant for Rupert sanders, but Zack Snyder later was interested by it
-2019 : the last we heard of it, Mel Gibson was courted to play odysseus. peacock, doner and nunnari were still listed.
and then... ...that's it, for now.
after that the flu happens, oceans rise, empires fall, and the version of the odyssey to make it to the big screen is an indie one with Ralph Fiennes and Juliette Binoche, focused on the second half with the "once back on Ithaca" part.
I love how well they executed the "hero of another story" trope with Odysseus. One of my favorite Sean Bean performances
And that's already a difficult list to choose from lol
For the life of me, I didn't notice Brad Pitt was off as all. Achilles looked cool and absolutely killer. His aloof nature felt Great as he is like the Greatest warrior with no equal and it wasn't until Hector did anyone even came close to harming him. [SPOILER ALERT] That is why the scene at the Gate where Hector scratch his armor surprised him. Because immediately afterwards he took the fight even more seriously and went for the kill. I still think about Troy from time to time. The same way I think about Lord of The Rings the Two Towers and Dune 2 (to be fair Dune 2 was recent). It also started my love for Greek myths as I saw it as a child. It is literally a core memory. Love the film I recommend it to everyone who even mentions they were interested in historical epics or sword and sorcery movies.
It varies from scene to scene, sometimes you can definitely notice Pitt is done with the whole thing and then the next scene he is motivated again, makes it a bit obvious that movies arent shot in order.
If he started out motivated and then lost interest gradually it could fit the story, but it doesnt. Still, I think he did a decent enough job and Achilles isnt the main character, hes just this unstoppable killing machine side character.
@@TheSuperappelflapAchilles isn't the main character? Hard disagree there. Achilles and Hector are the two main characters, and though Eric Bana gives an incredible performance that steals the show, the movie is definitely Achilles centric.
The monologues by Odysseus at the beginning and end of the movie essentially confirm this. The opening monologue is a perfect description of the driving force behind everything Achilles does, and in the closing monologue Achilles is literally the last word spoken in the film.
@@jedirayden Well obviously Pitt has a big role, but if you look at screentime the movie has like 15 or 20 major characters so if one of them isnt performing 100% it doesnt impact the quality of the movie as much, thats what I wanted to say.
And the story ultimately is about Helen and Paris and the fall of Troy, its mostly told from the Trojans perspective, depicting the Greeks as ruthless conquerors who dont respect their own gods and kill women and children.
What's funny is that you can read Brad Pitts checking out as even more spectacular acting as Achilles was checked out and would have left if not for patricles death at the hands of hector. But then his unwanted feelings of respect for hector during battle and then guilt while facing a true noble king in hectors father Priam. Basically Sean Bean/ Ulysses kept him there till the end
We watched TROY in our school’s auditorium, and I fucking loved it SO MUCH. Such an underrated movie. Everything was interesting, captivating, compelling! 🔥
You speak le truth 😄
A moment of silence for Hectors everywhere who had to hear their names called out in a rage fueled war cry.
Ah I'm sure they all love the idea of Brad Pitt challenging them to a fight 😁
I studied the Illian in Greek and the fat that Achilles has a wrestlig / mortla combat finishing move is in my opinion the very best way of showing Homeric Epithets cinematically. Gloriousy pre modern rather than post. Regarding the gods being included or not, that is a very Platonic way of thinking about them, which is also a fun choice for a classiscist. We aways forget that history has history, that the people who read Homer, were not the people that listenened to "him" compose it, and that the form we have isn't the original. We can see this most clearly in the Odyssey, where in book 21 the axes are described as "siderous" (can't do greek script here), which is often translated as grey iron, which obviously wasn't a thing when the story "happened", nor a weapon when the story was "composed".
Re: Brad's interpretation - The book begins with the dedication to the muses "Rage", that explains that Achilles is the hero. That said, Hero means something quite different to us. And in fact, Hector (and his wife Andromache) are the actual heroes of this story (in post bronze age eyes, including most of who we think of as Ancient Greeks). Bana made the right choice, and that stands up next to (the on brand for achilles) Weaker performance of Pitt. "Tragedies try to avoid their endings" and despite the fact this is an Epic, Homer and his audience know that the real story of the Illiad was the death of Hector, and so, the battle scene is a perfect represntation of this
There were iron weapons in those times, but they were extremely rare. Without the ability to refine low grade iron ore, the only source of iron that could be used to forge weapons was meteoric iron. But there are examples of such weapons from the bronze age. And myths about them.
I just assumed this was a classic and everyone loved it
For real haha I was devestated when I learned how many people don't like it
Hector is the greatest warrior to ever live.
He knew Achilles was immortal, yet to chose to stand and fight him anyways.
The directors cut is even better
Amazing. You've managed to make me love this movie even more by displaying the dimensions of each character and actor. Thank you.
Where can we watch the extended version? I used to love the miniseries Helen of Troy better; but Achilles and Briseis love story always stayed close to my heart
You can get it here on RUclips. I bought it recently enough
Worked for me... I watched it again about a year ago, enjoyed it again
This has been my favorite movie since I was 12 and it's the reason I even got interested in greek mythology in the first place. So many people seem to think it's a shallow blockbuster but there's so much depth to it!
Holy shit. This was a good video. Thanks for the trip down memory lane. This movie we owned on DVD, and back then only a handful of movies were available to watch on a saturday night at home, and even less so when adding into consideration a Paretto distribution of personal preference. I loved this movie. Perhaps I ought to give it another look since last time I saw it I didnt have a beard. And noting how Kingdom of Heaven is my standalone favourite film, I reckon it'd be a terrific return to the classics. No pun intended.
Just.... Bravo, sir. I thoroughly enjoyed this video and had to leave a thank you note.
PS: Boromir is the best character in LOTR. A man, flawed and fearful, yet always striving towards honour. Even when burdened with the weight of his errors.
You earned yourself a new sub today :)
Thank you for your lovely comment :) There will be a Kingdom of Heaven video someday XD
Really awesome analysis! I remember watching Troy thinking it had a classic and timeless feel to it more than many other historical movies of the 2000’s and the connection you made to the sword and sandal movies really highlights that
Thanks for watching :)
Awesome video. Honestly until you mentioned Brad's less than enthusiastic attitude towards the film I would not have noticed any problems with his performance otherwise. I felt the way he delivered his lines in any scene he was in was extremely well done. Although Eric Bana as Hector is absolutely perfect, I've always felt that Brad was the standout actor in this film. All three of the main female actors did an incredible job with the material they were given, and it makes me nostalgic for these types of film where the writers were focused on making the women good characters instead of just the much more prominent archetype nowadays of the 'strong' female character who only has a few good action scenes and no personality to them whatsoever. Overall, a great analysis of the film, thanks for sharing!
Thank you for your thoughts :)
Greek mythology seems to be timeless with pop culture through Percy Jackson and Epic The Musical's songs
It helps that it's recognisable but also public domain lol
No way you compared Iliad to Percy fucking Jackson
It is good to hear a good man articulating what i love and not know how to speak of my admiration for it
@@kodama44 why thank you 😊
"It's directed by a German, for Zeus's sake!" 🤣
I'll give the movie this much, despite not being a big fan of it - it has the best Agamemnon thanks to Brian Cox, the best Hector thanks to Eric Bana (he left a great impression on me!), the best Odysseus thanks to Sean Bean, and the best Priam thanks to the divine Peter O'Toole! Loved Rose Byrne as Briseis as well, this film was my introduction to her! The production design and costumes were lavish, the battle of Achilles and Hector was very well staged and worthy of Homer. For better or worse, at least I remember it being one of the major films watched in theaters with my whole family when I was 18 going on 19 back in 2004... and I certainly don't hate it.
This just came up for me now, it's a been a few years since I've watched it I do really like this movie. Great analysis.
Thanks for watching 😊
Achilles "gods envy us" speech changed my outlook on life
Ooh how so?
@BetterWithBob it made me appreciate everything. Sometimes I'll just stand there and look at the sky and everything around me cuz I know I'm mortal so any day can be my last.
Odysseus: "Let them say I lived in the time of Achilles"
*Has a whole epic dedicated to him.*
Sequel time!
Men showing emotion to each other and fellow comrades in arms is not homoeroticism
I‘m gonna be pedantic with the Patroclus thing, because this is actually a field I wrote a Thesis on.
Fundamentally, the Iliad is ancient, most likely only recorded by Homer after centuries of oral tradition, and whatever version of it was passed down through 2500+ yearsB. You simply can’t say for certain, and both sides have arguments with merit, both in and outside of the text. For one of the best non-lover takes, check out Jonathan Shay‘s „Achilles in Vietnam“.
BUT: Patroclus is the emotional crux of the story, he is mentioned several times as the closest person to Achilles. He shares his exile, he is intended to raise Achilles‘ son, and the grief Achilles experiences is commented on by the Gods themselves as going far beyond what you would feel for a family member like a father or son.
Troy barely has any Patroclus scenes, he‘s a snot-nosed wannabe warrior whose naivety and stupidity get him killed. Briseis, instead, is expanded on as a love interest far, far beyond the few times she ever talks in the Illiad.
Cutting time and character development from Patroclus for a forced romance is, if not „straightwashing“, a terrible narrative and creative decision.
That said, the choreography, the leads, the costumes and scale make it an awesome movie, I just have a few issues with the writing, this being the major one.
They couldn't have made Achilles and Briseis' story simply about him having his pride wounded after his war prize was taken away, because that would have made Achilles unsympathetic. They also couldn't have made Achilles and Patroclus lovers, because this was a big budget film in the early 2000s; they couldn't take that risk, and had to make their money back.
Sure, there are early sources and arguments to be made on whether these mythical characters were lovers or not. But Hollywood made the choices they did for commercial reasons, not because they wanted to be authentic to one source material over another. At the end of the day, this was, if not a case of straight-washing, a deliberate choice to go with the straight version. Certainly not a coincidence lol.
But yes, Patroclus being a snot-nosed wannabe who barely had interactions with Achilles makes Achilles' devastation and rage over Patroclus' death not very believable. Would have at least liked to see a stronger connection between these two.
Speaking of visuals, for me the most powerful shot in the film is the massing of the Greek host. The build-up of tension is excellent.
Troy was great. Saw it in the theatre and enjoyed it. I'll watch it whenever it's on because it's just fun.
Still wish we got an Odyssey movie with Sean Bean as the man himself, Odysseus. Wish he had more screen time since he was one of the main heroes of the Fall of Troy. Ajax and Aias the Great would have been cool to see too, but still, I think this movie was really cool.
Okay, let me do some recommendations:
I appreciate your appreciation for movies that are maybe silly or flawed but still very fun. (Troy is a fantastic example; I'm nowhere near as big a fan of Van Helsing as you are - I think it's pretty middling - but I can appreciate liking a movie because it's fun despite being flawed.) So let me throw out a few recommendations for you; maybe you're aware of them, have seen and made up your mind, but I'll throw out a few and see if any catch your attention. I'll split this into 3 categories:
1) movies - you've probably heard of but let's be thorough
2) movies - seem to have flown under the radar, so maybe you haven't
3) books - just one author I think you'll appreciate
1)
(a) Who Framed Roger Rabbit - I saw it, probably a few times, when I was young. I probably didn't watch it at all in my 20s, then for whatever reason re-visited it in my 30s and was blown away by how fucking good it is. The writing is so fucking tight and elegant, the performances are iconic, the jokes land, the story would still work without it being funny, Bob Hoskins is a legend, Christopher Lloyd's comedic sensibilities are probably underrated, the way they have the cartoons interact with the real world is fucking MIND-BLOWING; it would be mind-blowing if it came out today, honestly
(b) The Princess Bride - you've seen it, but it's a perfect movie. Fun, funny, charming, heart-warming, silly... perfect for any occasion, with any audience
(c) Walk Hard - I've had the hardest time convincing my favorite reactors to watch it, which blows my mind; I guess I kind of assumed we'd all seen it and appreciated that it was one of the greatest movies of all-time, but many still haven't heard of it? With a cast as deep as "Walk Hard" has, it may sound insane to say John C Reilly carried it, but he CARRIED it; if he isn't perfect in every way, the movie doesn't work anywhere near as well as it does, but he fucking nails every aspect of it. It's a fucking disgrace that he didn't win the Oscar for "Walk Hard".
(Sidenote: John Goodman has, as far as I'm aware, never even been nominated for an Oscar... I kind of think he may be the greatest living actor we have. Look at his fucking resume, it's staggering. Try to make a list of *only* your 5 favorite Goodman performances; it's impossible, there are too many. I'd have Walter Sobchak on the list, of course, and the Vice Dean in Community, but... narrowing it to 5 is impossible. Dude's underrated to a degree I can't even think of an adjective that properly describes it; "criminally" underrated understates it.)
2)
(a) Lucky Number Slevin - what a fun crime noir. Excellent writing, sharp dialogue... STRONG cast. Hartnett, Bruce Willis, Ben Kingsley, Morgan Freeman, Stanley Tucci... and it might not be Lucy Liu's "best" role but I don't think she's ever been more charming... I'm not sure ANY woman has been more charming than Lucy Liu is in Lucky Number Slevin. Her character might be a *tad* Manic Pixie Dream Girl-ish, but in that movie I think the unrealism works - all the characters are a bit larger-than-life, so... (I recently commented in your "Underappreciated Women" that Evie wasn't underappreciated, because EVERYBODY knows she's an all-time great female character in cinema; Lucy Liu's Lindsey in Slevin is DEFINITELY underappreciated.)
(b) Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang - In some ways very similar to Slevin; also a very funny, very well-written crime noir with sharp dialogue. KKBB might be a bit more outright funny, compared to Slevin's more dry wit... I think I'd be more confident recommending KKBB to somebody than Slevin because of that, although I personally may prefer Slevin *slightly* more... both are great. It's crazy to me that KKBB isn't better appreciated since it's (allegedly?) the role that got RDJ noticed and cast as Tony Stark. For some reason, "The Nice Guys" seems to get WAY more appreciation, and I don't want to shit on The Nice Guys... but KKBB is a far better, more fun movie.
Also a great cast: the aforementioned RDJ, Val Kilmer (in maybe his last great role), Bridget Moynahan (in maybe her best role? Most fun, if not most... I don't know, important, deep, nuanced?), Larry Miller has a small role (I called him out as a note-worthy movie dad, an underrated comedian, just yesterday in the comment section of your video on "10 Things I Hate About You")... speaking of dads - although sitcom not movie - the dad from Psych has a small but important role... Corbin Bernsen.
Both Slevin and KKBB, like The Big Lebowski, are really funny, well-written movies with great dialogue that are hysterically funny at times (Lebowski pretty much at all times, KKBB frequently... Slevin maybe not quite "hysterically" funny but often amusing, occasionally laugh-out-loud funny) but would absolutely work as movies even without the humor. Great scripts, all.
(c) Men Who Stare At Goats - a very Coen-esque movie but not by the Coens. Ewan McGregor is fantastic as the protagonist, a journalist going through a mid-life crisis who finds his calling, very well-cast for reasons that are obvious if you've seen it; George Clooney doing his goofy, Coen bros thing; he's such a great comedic actor, his facial expressions are really underutilized in most non-Coen bros movies I think (although he's also just fantastic when he's being cool, ie in the Ocean's movies - 12 is the best, I will fight you; I can't believe the negative reaction it got, so underappreciated. 11 is cool, 12 is cool and chill... I'm not a huge jazz fan but 12's soundtrack is fucking amazing). Jeff Bridges is essentially the Dude... Stephen Root, Stephen Lang, Nick Offerman, Robert Patrick... the story of the New Earth Army is actually pretty inspiring and uplifting... even though it ends up being kind of snuffed out, the ending is actually kind of optimistic in a way I appreciate.
(d) Mr Right - an Action RomCom; I think the only one of its kind outside of Grosse Pointe Blank. I honestly think "Mr Right" is better though... the female lead is Anna Kendrick, whom I'm not a big fan of... I don't dislike her, I'm pretty neutral... but if you like her thing, then you'll like what she brings in this role (and because of her presence in it, I remain at least somewhat baffled that this movie flew under the radar the way it seemed to)... the male lead is Sam Rockwell, and he fucking KILLS it. Shocking, I know. It's probably his best role, IMO; maybe not, like, in terms of being a meaty part with depth that a talented actor can sink his teeth into, but more because it's such a perfect role for Rockwell to fully embrace the best, most fun things about himself as an actor. It's the most Rockwelliest performance and I love it.
(While he's not quite as big a name as Kendrick, I don't think, he's still a pretty well-known and respected and liked actor - right? So Kendrick and Rockwell in an Action RomCom... I can't believe how few people seem to have heard of it.)
And
3) In the spirit of this video, your appreciation for Greek era romance/tragedies: if you haven't read David Gemmell, absolutely check him out. (I think he's kind of a big name author, you may have heard of him... but it's just so hard, I think, to gauge the popularity of authors/books vs actors/directors/movies. Outside of, like, Stephen King, John Grisham, Michael Crichton, I just really don't know.)
His Drenai series - mostly an anthology - is pretty easily my favorite of his. "Legend" is the first book in the (non-chronological) series, and is a great starting point: it really showcases his ability to write about epic battles and epic heroes while also making them feel grounded and very human... it's a great litmus test for him, so I'd recommend starting there, although "Quest for Lost Heroes" is probably my favorite book of his (like, the 4th released but 11th chronologically in his Drenai saga - although "Dark Moon", a standalone novel, is way up there too; the main protagonist - one of three, although he can be argued to be the foremost of those 3 - has a demon living inside of him, which... I just LOVE that shit, man, I love any kind of sentient weapon or artifact, a good story with the main character having a sentient item - in this case, adjacent - I eat that shit up, so good.)
I bring him up less to recommend his Drenai saga, much as I love it, but because his later books were very Greek/Roman influenced: labeled as "Historical Fiction" (on wikipedia, at least; there's magic involved, and very Gemmell-esque magic, not just Greek or Roman god/pantheon/mythology stuff)
the Troy series: "Lord of the Silver Bow", "Shield of Thunder", "Fall of Kings"
and
the Greek series: "Lion of Macedon" and "Dark Prince"
I personally prefer the Drenai saga to either the Troy or Greek series, but I'm definitely more into full-on medieval fantasy than Greek or Roman-influenced "historical fantasy" stuff, so... based on this video, seems like you might be the opposite? (Maybe not, of course, you may just have talked about that specific interest of yours since it's relevant to this video; you talk about liking "Lord of the Rings" too, so...) But if you're the opposite then by all means, try out either the Troy or Greek series first, over "Legend". But either way, if you haven't heard of Gemmell, read any of his work, I highly recommend checking him out. He's one of my favorites.
There is a reason _Lucky Number Slevin_ was renamed to _The Wrong Man_ in different markets, it was a too clever by half title, enjoyable movie though, wish Josh Hartnet was in more things.
Mr Pitt's disdain for his character and role...really translated well to his portrayal of the jaded asshole that is Achillies.
I'm glad I'm not the only one whose favorite LOTR character is Boromir! Sean Bean absolutely killed it.
After watching the Troy TV series, which was overly long and had a depressing ending, I really appreciated how good the movie was.
I have not heard good things about the series. This is the Fall of a City one?
37:25 -- RE: Menelaus and Agamemnon; See also the House of Atreus. Fun Fact! The Atreides in the sci-fi novel (and films) "Dune" consider themselves to be the descendants of these Greek figures, a curious detail which is explored in the expanded canon published by Frank Herbert's son. But yeah, it seems modern education doesn't often bother to identify that these two brother-kings are the Atreides, "A-Trey-Deez".
Before I even watch this, I'm impressed you can say "because it kicks ass" for forty minutes. Let's do this!!!
@BetterWithBob I direct you to Lindybeige’s RUclips video on what The Iliad was about.
It’s a great video essay that uses bits of this film in parts. The other thing I wanted to share is that I had a college course in undergrad where I delved deep into Thetis and her history, and other similar characters to her in world folklore. Morgana Le Faye and Thetis have some wonderful connections.
Thanks for this wonderful video I chowed down to some dinner with!
Ooh good recommendation :)
"thats why nobody will remember your name" cmonnnnnnnn! pitt was badass in this
Troy also missed out on the music. Yared Gariel had some good stuff that was dumped last minute for paint-by-numbers James Horner soundtrack
I love this movie. And I'll never apologize for it.
And don't ever!
still love this spectacular movie
Thank you for this One! Revisiting this one....or maybe even Kingdom of Heavesn.
Why not both 😉
I never thought it was amazing, but also a bit unfairly maligned too.
Troy is a fantastic epic and I will happily die on that hill
I'll be dying on that hill too!
@@BetterWithBob huzzah!
diane kruger definitely is pretty enough to be Helena... but it is true that skinny wasn't considered beautiful for a woman in ancient greece, especially in bronze age greece! still she portrayed her well, the casting in general of this movie was perfect!
There was a weird in between in the 2000s when they were transitioning out of the heroin chic standard of the 90s and suddenly being like 'real women are curvy', but actresses were still expected to be thin by default and then gain 10-20 lbs if a director so desired. Renee Zellweger in Bridget Jones for example
'The sun was shining when your wife left you' 😂
Sarah J Maas totally robbed that line and put it in A Court of Thorn and Roses 😂
I watched it in cinema for 3 times ❤
Now that is impressive!
Having read the Aeneid first, I was always annoyed that they made Aeneas a random nobody at the end. I get that they couldn't give every character their due, but still...
You should see Garret Hedlund in _On the Road_ because he is electric in that movie, I wish we got to see him in more roles like that. Hinting about a PotC hot take, now that's just mean. I like Will Turner so it will be an interesting watch.
Oh I do keep meaning to check that out. He's quite good in Country Strong too, even if that isn't much of a movie. He can sing too
I been getting shredded for the remake.
Brad Pitt don’t got sh*t on me 😒
Pics or GTFO
there was also a silent film about Troy
Never understood why an arrow to the heel could kill, not exactly a vital organ.
In mythology it came from how when he was a baby, Thetis dipped Achilles in water that would make him invincible, but she held him by the heel to stop him drowning, so the heel was the one part that didn't get covered by the water
i really like how the movie handled this given its "maybe" attitude regarding the supernatural story elements.
with the supernatural reading, Achilles got shot through the heel, his one weak spot.
with a more "realistic" reading, the arrow through his heel catches him completely by surprise, and oh baby that's got to hurt, and will slow even the best fighter down. And it is the next 3(?) arrows that hit him in the chest and abdomen that wound him fatally. And by pulling the arrows out he speeds up bleeding out. And then of course his dead body is found with only the arrow in his heel cementing the stories that he could only be killed by injuring his heel.
@@Msmoehri92 i love when stories do this: for those who like the fantasy version, theres enough there. same for the grounded version/ explanation.
similarly, my head cannon , is the nolan batman movies can be seen as the real events, that later bat stories/myths are based on. (like how Hercules, if existed, was strong, but not actually a god. the "giant" wasn't 20 ft tall, but 7 and 1/2) bane wasn't on super roids(myth), but some reg test perhaps, and painkillers. he didn't break the whole back but dislocated disc. bane didn't punch THRU concrete like in the comics, but can definitely crack it.
Alright, so I won’t comment on the other parts of the video as I pretty much agree with all of them. I especially love the explanation and clarification of Patroclus and Achilles’ orientation.
But I got a different take on Helen and Diane Kruger. I’m definitely part of the camp who didn’t find her particularly beautiful. Which I noticed you pointed out as “jealousy.”
I’m not sure about others, but on my part, not exactly the case. Granted, I’m a straight, non-white woman, so obviously, my gaze is going to be different.
Diane is pretty, yes. But in a girl-next-door way which I see you’ve attributed to Natalie Portman.
Most blondes tend to look “washed out” to me; bland with the exception of Brad Pitt.
She’s simply one of many pretty women, and I actually thought Irène Papas’ non conventional features looked more strikingly appealing than Kruger’s.
With Saffron Burrows and Rose Byrne in the film, I didn’t think Kruger particularly outshined them at all, let alone be one of the most beautiful women in the world when the likes of Salma Hayek, Monica Bellucci, Catherine Zeta Jones, Angela Bassett, Keira Knightley, etc exists.
So yeah, beauty is subjective. 🤷🏻♀️
never understood the hate for this movie and think Brad Pitt is flat out wrong about his take with Troy. This one will always be one of the war movies from the 2000s that I categorize as a classic.
Sean Bean makes me think of Zap Brannigan & Gilderoy Lockhart
Quite a combo
Not showing Helen would have been great
Honestly, Troy is one of my favorite movies when I was growing up. It's also the reason for my crush on Diane Kruger lol
I feel ya on that one lol
As much flak as this movie gets, I sincerely doubt I'll see another production like it in my lifetime.
Just have to say The Trojan Women is pretty great film, definitely NOTHING like the movie Troy, not a blockbuster, not fun entertaining camp, not big spectacle. But dour stage-play drama on limited environment, BUT it’s made by the brilliant Michael Cacoyannis who also directed Electra and Iphigenia and Zorba the Greek. If you’re a fan of classic Hollywood I think the cast speaks for itself; Katherine Hepburn, Genevieve Bujold, Vanessa Redgrave and Irene Papas. Would highly recommend for those who study antiquities or ancient plays and whatnot
This is a weird one for me, because I love parts of this movie, but dislike it as a whole. I think it's one of those cases where they were just a little unsure as to what they wanted to do, or maybe it was trying to do too much. They wanted a realistic version of an event that is very much mythological, while having a kickass historical war movie that also has a lot of definitive antiwar messaging, while having heroes on both sides without having a clear villain (and no, I don't consider Agamemnon a villain given the actual stories or the politics of that world), they wanted a historical movie that doesn't seem to understand the world in which the story took place, while also having a deep philosophical discussion about politics, authority and what it means to be a leader, while also having a love story, while also having some kickass fight scenes. Honestly, Brad Pitt's portrayal as Achilles works for me, because you really do get his sense of boredom and burnout from the beginning, and his quest for glory combined with his lack of internal peace that is driving him. In that sense he actually does become a truly tragic hero, because his vainglorious quest for immortality in the form of fame leads to his demise. The two that I don't like are Peter O'Tooles Priam, whom I find be misused because he seems very one dimensional and a spewer of catchphrases. The only point where I don't see that is when he speaks with Achilles about getting Hector's body back. The other is Eric Bana's Hector. Namely because Hector knows what's going on and at no point ever does anything to actually stop the coming war. He could have put a stop to his brother and saved them all, but he never really put his foot down. Then, after abetting in the start of this war, he's made that war is now upon him and his city.
I watched it again recently and I enjoyed it. It has flaws but overall it's a good movie.
Most movies do have flaws tbh
When you're as cool as I am, they name movies after you. ✨😎✨
There's a movie called Bobby as well. Virtual five
Upvote from me,for mentioning the Ray Harryhausen StopMotion classics (8.03) ,even if it is,in the negative ! 😂😂
Who's being negative? I respect the hell out of those movies
@@BetterWithBob Fair enough,as he way,you spoke about them,I thought you were being slightly 'dismissive',as I absolutely adore Ray Harryhausen,espec. 'Jason and the Argonauts' .👌👍
I saw this in theaters and admitted to hating it, but I also admit that part was more because I had a massive headache during the entire that kept getting worse as it went on.
Otherwise I'd say I have a more neutral outlook on it.
Oh that'd do it lol. I hate Django Unchained mainly because I was really tired while watching it and was like "will this movie fucking end so I can go to bed already!"
(These days I'd just watch it in parts and get the sleep)
Brian cox was made Agamemnon
When I go home people'll ask me, "Hey Hector, why do you do it man? What, you some kinda war junkie?" You know what I'll say? I won't say a goddamn word. Why? They won't understand. They won't understand why we do it. They won't understand that it's about the men next to you, about Troy, and that's it. That's all it is.
HECTORRRRRRRRR
I forgot to count how many times he shouts it
@@BetterWithBob 😂😂soo many, they deserve their own video
I never watched Troy due to being a big hellenophile as a kid but it does sound like it matches my views on Greek myth. I think I may watch it after this, don't even gotta go full critical viewing neither, since I got my share here XD
I'm all for demythification, so long as it keeps the myth parts as just the religious aspects and/or the roles the divine played. For example, if Athena struck a murderer down for his crimes, you could easily translate that as the law coming down on him due to her relation to the establishment of Athens' courts. So long as Troy could keep that same energy but make it realistic, I'd say it would get a pass from me.
I’ll give it another go now 👍🏿
Troy was defiantly real, but I wouldn't take the story as 100% accurate.
The story was the legend of the actual city and the wars that commenced. The most commonly agreed theory is that there were several Trojan Wars until the city fell, which is perhaps why Homer wrote about a humongous army that stuck around for a decade, instead of a few smaller ones that came in waves.
Achilles vs Hector is one of the best 1v1 battles committed to film.
Right now, i cant think of a better one, If you add together Style and storytellin through the Action.
Brad Pitt was incredible in that fight scene. Looked so fluid
Agreed, haven't seen a better sword fight in film tbh
The ending fight in 1960s Macbeth is good.
@@Farron6yea he really sold how bad ass and slick Achilles was through the whole movie. I love how he did all of it himself too. I wouldn't have guessed that
Troy had, perhaps, the greatest display of filial and patriarchal love of any movie.
Hector, kneels before Priam:
-- Father. Forgive me for any offenses.
I served you as best as i could.
Priam, kisses Hector on the forehead:
-- May the Gods be with you.
Hector, No father ever had a better son.
Both actors really sold that scene.
That scene was kind of ruined for me considering it was Priam's fault, not listening to Hector is the reason Hector now has to go out and die.
@@jmchez so sorry I forgot to reply. You're absolutely right there
Troy was awesome. Always thought it got an unfair rep.
Me too XD
Yeah, by Pitt as well. I don’t understand why he felt Achilles was portrayed as purely heroic. Hector was a purely heroic figure, and the true main character of the Iliad (the original story ends with his death).
Achilles is an anti hero with aspirational qualities, but the first time he truly does something selfless in the movie, is in the very end, when he hands over Hector’s body to Priam, sends his men home and goes back in Troy to save Briseis during the sacking of the city.
In Greece, we consider him the definitive version of Achilles, probably the best interpretation we’ll ever see.
@@alexman378 oh really? You're in Greece? I'd be very interested to hear how the movie was received there
@@BetterWithBob Extremely well, actually. Most people really love it and still talk about it.
Everyone acknowledges the inaccuracies, but it’s pretty much agreed that there’s no real way of making a satisfying 2-2.5 hour feature about the entire Trojan War if you’re going to be 100% accurate.
Pitt and Bana are always seen as stand outs in their roles, seen as the definitive versions of those characters, even by those who didn’t feel as strongly for the film.
@@alexman378 It reminds me of the Last Samurai discourse it's very well loved in Japan despite the inaccuracies but for some reason a lot of westerners want to convince everyone that they hate it over there when they don't 😅
The scene between Priam and Achilles is just magnificent.
It certainly is
The only truly canonic thing about the film 😂
100th like 👍🏻
I truly, deeply appreciate your thoughtfulness of Helen as a character/figure and of Diane's depiction of her. Thank you for that.
Thanks so much 😊
Yes she's so underrated, and not just in this movie. She's a really terrific actress despite being "low key" in terms of fame
TROY is one of those films you can watch over & over again and never get bored. Job well done!
😊😊😊
I confirm.
Literally me everytime I catch it on cable tv!
Everyone has their thing.... that being said claiming that Diane Kruger is not pretty enough is plain crazy, all these years past and she still looks amazing.
I think a lot of it comes from bitterness, jealousy or some kind of insecurity. I saw it so much in journalism of the 2000s and 2010s, where people seemed to delight in being so vicious to people's appearances
I had no clue that there actually was anyone who thought she wasn't good-looking enough!? Like seriously, in this film - she's easily one of the ten most beautiful women i have ever seen! What the FUCK are people talking about?!
I’m guilty as charged. Over the years I’ve grown to appreciate her beauty and performance.
She literally isn’t beautiful enough when Helen is described as the most beautiful woman of all time
It doesn’t really matter in the context of a movie, but it is still a factual statement
@@8301TheJManten most beautiful woman ever? That is extreme. Hollywood women tend to have masculine features.
Everyday girls in small towns look better than virtually every celebrity. The 20 year old girl working at your local McDonald’s is better looking than 90% of Hollywood women
Pitt's Achilles is more than just a "strong man." Watching his portrayal on the battlefield, including dodging swords and spears in melee, one could believe that his skin was impervious to the weapons.
Ooh very good point
If you watch him in the duel with Hektor you can even see that a lot of his movements are just...unnatural, as if some other force were moving his body out of danger.
@@dungeonsanddobbers2683I think the movie's emphasis on his surreal yet not acrobatic agility is what makes him feel so utterly unstoppable.
We have good visual motifs for the likes of Hercules. But Achilles style of combat is not really described beyond his rage, the film really bridges this gap without utilising anything which borders on stereotype or feels like a trope.
I started to dislike the Trend of based in reality but i love when you could Chose to believe in the supernatural but also can have a rational explanation If you want one. Archillies depecition Made me question His Mortal Status at the time and i Loved how you can See that even after the First step of Chinese Telephone there would be one that Heard "invurnable but for.."
@@blue-pi2ktone of if not THE most common titles/nicknames Homer calls Achilles in the Illiad is "swift footed Achilles" which would imply that he is famously fast and agile
The press actually said the Diane wasnt beautiful enough...? 😂😂😂
Listen, i might not be gay but when i saw this movie as a kid for the first time i remember been in aw of her beauty in the way the i really actually thought *Helen* was the most beautiful woman i had ever seen in my life
I can still watch this now and stand by it
Any jealous biatches will talk sh*t out of that. Just pure jealousy
I didn't find her that pretty either, for me vivien Leigh, Catherine zeta Jones and Natalie Portman are that level of high beauty
I'm surprised to see Natalie Portman mentioned. While I think she is beautiful, to me she's more that 'pretty but not too pretty' that doesn't make people feel insecure type, where she can still be cast as the relatable lead and women won't hate her lol
@BetterWithBob I think she was at her prime during the prequels and she had nice skin and small doll shape face and features. I guess that's what she shares with Jones and leigh
When I watched it as a young girl I hated Helen so much for being so beautiful that I couldn't actually focus on the movie. To this day I feel bad for it
@@kasiarybka6786 Oh wow lol
Achilles vs Hector is still probably my favorite movie duel of all time
Very fair lol
@@BetterWithBob also Achilles is basically an anime character. He throws that spear like a god and everyone goes N-NANI?!?!
Mine is the final duel in Kurosawa's 'Sanjuro' 🌊
You briefly mentioned it. But it is very rarely appreciated that the casting of Orlando Bloom and Eric Bana as Paris and Hector created the most believable brothers in cinema history. they looked the part and had the chemistry that kids like me did not know them at that time wanted to check if they were related in real life. thats how awesome they worked together.
They had worked together in Black Hawk Down beforehand and I think I read an interview where Eric said they'd already become good friends, so in that sense it was very easy for them to be brothers
The death of hector still makes me cry especially when Priam comes to collect his body
It's so tragic 😭
"I have endured what no one on earth has endured before. I kissed the hands of the man who killed my son."
"I loved my boy from the moment he opened his eyes until the moment you closed them."
"How many cousins have you killed? How many sons and fathers and brothers and husbands? How many, brave Achilles?"
Peter O' Toole wasn't pregnant but the way he delivers these lines *chef's kiss*
James Cosmos character deserved more attention, I felt just as bad about his death as Hector. Overall perfect nostalgic throwback
Yeah while I was editing, even I regretted not talking about him more
That Kingdom of Heaven name drop.. yesss.. Kingdom of Heaven director's cut is a master piece.. it's so underrated
Recently rewatched it and all I can say is my God 😃
@@BetterWithBob Your quality will be known among your enemies, before ever you meet them.
I believe Kingdom of Heaven was destroyed by the theatrical cut. That cut makes no sense.
Hopefully it'll get a resurgence at some point and be reevaluatedv by the masses. God wills it
I watched it after it came out and had done all this reading about it so I knew to watch the director's cut first. I didn't see the theatrical one until years later and was like "wow this is nothing"
@@BetterWithBob I watched it in like 2007, but I was fortunate enough that the person who showed me it, showed the directors cut
@@BetterWithBob I always looked at 2010 Robin Hood as a sequel to Kingdom of Heaven. Kingdom ended with Richard, and Robin Hood began with Richard.
You are so right on Diane’s performance. She did so much with so little that even when she is put in the femme fatale she still shows agency though all her decisions are co trolled by the male characters around her
Your take on Orlando as Paris is truly eye opening and although there is little likability in his character, the fact that he was willing to lean so heavily into that persona where so many others wouldn’t touch it with a ten foot pole makes me appreciate him that much more. I enjoy this movie and although I LOVE Greek mythology and would be eternally grateful for a proper adaptation of the Odyssey done with all mythological aspects personified, I did appreciate this film for a worthy portrayal of the event as if it could have happened
Thank you :)
What I also like about Hector is his pithy sense of strategy.
On Menelaus he tells Paris “Make him swing and miss. He’ll tire.”
On being asked in council to follow up the Trojan victory with an attack on the Greek fleet he notes “Achilles and his Myrmidons did not fight today. There is division in the Greek ranks.”
And he warns that attacking the ships is a bad idea, as it may unite the Greeks. Hector is smart enough to know that the real war is between him and Achilles, and if some conflict among the Greeks has pushed Achilles to sit out, they'd be foolish to risk putting Achilles back on the field... And look what happens.
Boromir is also my absolute favorite. Its a small but devoted group. I was born in 88 and have an uncle 7 or 8 years older. Every Christmas eve wed stay at my grandparents and me and my big brother would watch the animated version that only covers half the trilogy and was never finished. But it had Vikings boromir with horned helmet taking arrows 3 at a time and blowing his horn and cutting down orcs. And then his Vikings funeral has been such a vivid memory
Watching Troy in the cinema was something you don't forget!
Very true
... I wasn't aware we were being watched. You weren't recording, were you? It'd be problematic trying to hunt that young lady down after all these years... 😅
Damn, I was born in 2004, now I wish I could have experienced it in theaters, we needed a re-release for it's 20th anniversary.
I greatly enjoyed Troy. Even though it was not particularly faithful to the Iliad, it got the essentials right. Achilles is the greatest of warriors, and chooses fame over a long life. His prowess as a warrior, and his disdain for Agamemnon is well portrayed. And most of all, that both the Greeks and Trojans are equally heroic is well handled. Hector is as much a champion as is Achilles.
I had no clue that Troy wasn’t universally thought of as an all time great
Alas I was aware from the beginning because of the message boards back in the day
Are you also going to cover the 2004 King Arthur movie? It’s a bit of a guilty pleasure if I’m being honest. Clive Owen was Arthur for most of my childhood.
Yep that's next on my list lol
@@BetterWithBob Can't wait for that it's also a guilty pleasure if mine 😅
@@KeyBladeMaster-Dan I also used to know one of the cast members, so hoping to get an interview with him as well
I didn't know Brad didn't like the Film. That's sad. Also never saw Achilles as The Main character though, always saw Hector as that. You're right about Diane as well.. she was Great as Helen.
I suppose I see Achilles as the main because it opens and ends with him. Though Hector is definitely the traditional hero of the piece
Achilles IS the main character. If he wasn't, Eric Bana would have been playing him and Brad Pitt would have been playing Hector.
Eric Bana absolutely steals the show though, with a brilliant performance that you can tell he fully committed to. But the opening monologue is a perfect description of the impetus behind everything Achilles does (it describes men wanting their name to last through the ages, which is Achilles to a T) and the closing monologue, well, Achilles is literally the last spoken word in the film.
You are confusing "main character" with "hero".
Achilles is most definitely the main character, followed closely by Paris and Helen respectively, then Hector, then agammemnon, etc...
"Main character" is not a description of their virtues or flaws, it's a description of their role in a story or generally a plot. Achilles is not the "pov" character persé, but he is the perspective we grow the most accustomed to, the character we return pretty much the most to, he has the most growth and general character conflict, etc... We get the most personal backstory with him, down to his sexlife, his relationships, his mother, the prophecy, whether or not he can die, whether or not he's a demi-god, etc... To say Troy isn't about Achilles and instead about Hector, would be absolutely delusional, and contradicted by the very run-time of the movie.
Hector was definitely somewhat heroic, but heroism does not a main character make. (I would argue that there is no real way to say any character here is heroic when we are inherently dealing with nobles, kings, and the generals that serve these nobles, along with all the conscripted young men and mercenaries forced to die for the formers' vices, within a pre-feudal, tribal, authoritarian society that uses state-religion to legitimize authority. All of the people we see on screen have, directly or indirectly, blood, tyranny and exploitation on their hands. Hector was only "heroic", because he fights to protect his people from an imminent invasion. But everybody else seems to be in it for profit, "glory" and petty personal satisfaction, including Paris. There are no heroes in a world that breeds villains up to the highest and most profitable positions of power and ONLY showcases THEM as the important characters in a story.)
Pitt phoning in his performance was actually genius because it fit the character perfectly. Lmao
I adore this movie ❤ always thought it was incredible Brad Pitt injured his Achilles tendon during 😂
Talk about life imitating art 😂😂😂😂
Yeah - I absolutely adore this film. I mean it had it's flaws, but i genuinely don't think any of them were so bad that they negatively impacted my enjoyment of this movie in any meaningful way. It's cheesy and over the top sometimes, but as a whole it's phenomenal film. And even if Brad hated this role, i thought he did a damn good job with what he had to work with and there are a number of instances that were straight up impressive, like when he cried over Hector's body, or when he delivered the line after allowing Hector to escape back to the city, "It's too early in the morning for killing princes." And my god.... the duel between Achilles and Hector is legit one of the top three one s one fight scenes in film history. The only other fight on par with that one might be Paul vs Feyd in "Dune Part 2."
The score in "Troy" is underrated.