Defending Every Disney Princess (Except Tiana)
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- Mild CW:
Discussions of abuse, consent and racism
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ruclips.net/video/trWcSj9TQMo/видео.html Some recommended 'further watching/reading' on the issues with Tiana from someone far more informed on the topic than me. I'd also recommend watching that first if you're unsure about my position on Tiana
I disagree about your opinions on Tiana. I think it’s great that she’s so hard-working and clearly believes in herself she’s also very
supportive, considering she’s had to grow up around rich people, her entire life and yet never feels jealous of them. She isn’t mad at Prince Naveen because he has money and can do whatever he wants without having to work for it which she’s actually mad at is the fact that he believes he’s entitled to this , Lottie basically does the same thing as him but Lottie is a nice person. Who’s generous Tiana excepts this
she’s also someone who in a weird way is very modest and can accept having lesser means as long as it means that someday she’ll be happy and her dream of wanting to start a restaurant isn’t just the fact that she wants to do it for her dad, but that she genuinely enjoys feeding people and bringing together community and wants people to really enjoy her food she’s also very responsible and mature. and isn’t stubborn the complete movie
also, as far as girl boss goes, she takes a lot of crap from her job and gets a demeaned as a waitress. She doesn’t try to take over the job or demand that she should be the one in charge.
I can probably say as a woman of color
that I will 100% support this Disney princess and all the Disney princesses you have mentioned
i’m not saying the story is perfect. There is flaws but Tiana in my opinion is a great character.
Also, as far as adult goes from Susie and Rugrats, in my opinion, Susie is no more adult than Angelica, where Angelica constantly makes adult references to things that she should not know such as the Godfather movies. It’s very clear that they are similar and intelligence it’s just that Angelica’s more juvenile and there’s nothing wrong with having smart black girls in fact. One of the main reason Susie is the way she is is because Chris Summer wanted Susie to act like that specifically because according to Chris summer so many black girls either had no personality or were seen as dumb and who only made really risky or hyper sexualized decisions that made no sense. and she wanted Susie to be a good role model for black girls. as well as the writers helping her alongside that goal.
and Susie is still treated like a three-year-old and still acts like a three-year-old just not to the level of angelica and you can argue that the reason why Susie is able to act like this is because even though all the babies and Rugrats aren’t exactly geniuses or a smartest Susie, according to the writers of Rugrats, their goal was to make the babies in a way more mature than the adults. In fact it was a huge conflict that they had , where one of the female writers complained that all the babies were sounding too mature for their age
so the reason why Susie act the way she acts stems from Cree Summer and the writers trying to make a smart three-year-old rather than other bad ways, black girls have been represented at that time point and with how the shows writing kind of was in general at that point and Susie from the beginning was made to be smart also you can argue that it’s not that Susie smart. It’s that just compared to Angelica, who is so horrible all the time Susie saying basic stuff that most of us could agree on just makes her look smart.
also, if Susie was white, I don’t think anyone would really say this
they would just say that’s a smart kid you can make the same argument for Kevin McAllister from home alone being way too smart
in my opinion, adult ifacation. is when you make a black character, go through adult situations and expect them to be perfectly mentally stable and calm at handling them or putting them in uncomfortable situations that they would never put a white character in similar to how in the black version of Annie from 2014 interviewers kept referring to the 12-year-old actress who played Annie as not a child when they asked her did she like the movie when she was a child and is that why she’s doing it now and she had to respond with I’m still a child simply knowing right and wrong or knowing a language or just having common sense like Susie does against Angelica, and the Rugrats in my opinion does not count
if you would like to argue that there’s something wrong with the smart black girl trope, you can argue that these characters are always given the burden of the world on their shoulders and are never allowed to display emotion in fear that they’ll ruin their hard work and that their community will see them as nothing more than another black failure and constantly have to be perfect without actually discovering their own likes or interest heck you could’ve played this to a lot of perfectionist characters
you can also add that the smart black girl is usually in a sea of for the most part, white characters and how she’s the only black representation allowed in the TV show in a way unspoken Lee saying she is the exception, not the rule or anywhere close to it
and you can also argue that whenever she is around other black characters, they’re typically seen as dumber or less than to emphasize how special she is
sorry for the long essays
it’s just as a black kid these two characters mean a lot to me and I am in a similar situation to Tiana, where characters like her give me hope, and susie was always a fan favorite for me and I saw it as an empowering representation
and overall, I think that we said about the Disney princesses was really really great and I’ve also had the exact same problems with people who disagree otherwise
and you’ve even changed my opinion on Aurora
Maybe not completely but you’ve definitely made me like her more
also, Dude last comment, but Tiana wasn’t trying to be a bandage to say that yeah we agree with you. Old Disney princesses are bad. Please still like us. In my opinion she is actually reestablishing Walt Disney’s beliefs, but in Her Own Way, Walt Disney was a huge huge believer of hard work and yet still wanted people to dream
which is why Snow White is such a hopeful character like you mentioned in your video, but what his next film Pinocchio showing the harm of dreaming and not actually working for your goal it proves that Disney original message was dream all you want, but you better work for it or there will be consequences, which is exactly what Tiana keeps trying to say when she says the only way you’ll get some thing in this world is by doing hard work. I didn’t see it as her preaching to the audience, even though it is a part of that, but I saw more as just her in frustration with the world coming out as preachy.
For Mulan, I think a lot of people miss the fact that while she didn't fit in with the women, she also didn't fit in with the men. She had to embrace what made her so different from everyone- her ability to think outside the box and use objects she has at her disposal in new ways.
Lol as a boy who was a weird hybrid of masculine and feminine socialisation, I related so much to Mulan trying to be manly to fit in with the men and failing miserably
In fact, her arch in the movie is exactly to find her place in life. And she finds it by just being herself.
Same as a woman, I am not very feminine nor masculine. I don’t fit in with either of them. So I can relate. Plus she did it to save her father not because she wanted to be a man.
@@BetterWithBob Weirdly enough the bride candidates march in formation like the soldiers. Foreshadowing that Milan is always out of place or showing the brides and soldiers aren’t so different?
In spite of that, her three friends in the army (I forget their names) were loyal to her and respected her even after she was discovered. They moved to intervene when they thought Shang was going to execute her, and listened to her in the city when she told them she had a plan.
Mulan didn't realise just how many friends she had.
Also, the three of them turning around dressed as women while "Be a man" blares in the background was a fantastic moment.
“You’re the most problematic person in the world!”
Snow White: I’m literally 14 years old.
Considering some of the nonsense I said at 14...fairly accurate lol
I heard she's 14 but I also heard the prince whos name is Florian is 30. I hope it's not true.
@@haven_lady675 Florian is around 18-20 years old. Definitely not in his 30s, that's an old internet rumor
@@kyramahlervolleyballfinally, someone who knows it is not true. I swear everyone believes anything on this damn internet it so annoying
@@haven_lady675 A weirdly youthful guy for someone who’s incorrectly thought to be 30.
Real. No one needs defending as much as CINDERELLA. People literally made her the image of "A princess saved by a man" "Anti-feminist" "Girly" as if she did not survive her own family's mental AND physical abuse. Despite that, she still has a heart of gold. There is strength and bravery in being "soft" too. A woman doesn't need to hold a sword, an arrow, sail a boat on her own... to be considered strong.
Walt himself thought she was strong. I can't find a source for this quote but he supposedly said "she didn't wait for prince charming, she went right over to the palace and got him"
The thing that bothers me so much It's the hypocrisy of certain people in internet. Well, when it's a girl from Studio Ghibli who does household chores as an gratitute and her new friends, people love it and find it a amazing and learning lesson and how "precious" and "sentimental" the movie is. BUT when Snow White did the same decades earlier they say it was "sexist", "oppressive" and "anti-feminist". HELLO?????
Cinderella wanted to go to the ball because for the first time in years she wanted to feel like all the other girls. She wanted to dress up and go to parties and have fun, and when she arrived at the palace she was in awe of everything around her. She couldn’t believe it herself that she was there. She caught the princes attention because she stood out to him among the other girls. So she met him by chance not by intention.
@@eveningwhisk7736 Exactly. It was Drizella and Anastasia who were there to try and snag him, while Cinders just wanted a night off. She doesn't even have an interest in dancing with the prince
Exactly!
Aurora had personality, she just didn't had enough screen time.
THANK YOU
That's for sure. I mean cut the kings' and the fairies time a bit. It's called Sleeping Beauty for a reason.
Well that was the gimmick of the film. During the development process, they realised they were more interested in the three Good Fairies and their efforts to protect Aurora, so it became a perspective flip from their POV
@@BetterWithBob In deleted scenes, Aurora was meant to have more screen time. In one of the earlier drafts of the film, Aurora was meant to live in the palace and never go outside. She snuck out and went to a fair where Maleficent, disguised as a gypsy woman told her her fortune that she'll meet a handsome man, she met Philip as soon as she left the tent.
She’s honestly my favorite princess. She’s beautiful, compassionate, in tune with nature, loyal, sings great, and is actually very witty.
I loved your point about Sleeping Beauty, the classic films were groundbreaking to begin with because they were some of the few films back then to even have female characters in both protagonist AND antagonist roles. Literally the five most important characters in both Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty are ALL women.
What's interesting about Sleeping Beauty when you take a step back from it, while it certainly is a story about Aurora and Philip, in the grander picture it's really about the end of a who knows how long conflict between Maleficent and the Three Fairies. The two lovers are good people but are just way out of their league when it comes to the magical characters. When you ponder how long they must have been thorns in each other's sides, it's rather wild that their battle finally came to an end over a bunch of crazy teenagers in love.
@@ariwl1I respect that, but when it comes to these types of films, I would prefer that the screenplays were tighter and put a lot of emphasis on character. I am good with movies that are not centrally about the characters, but Sleeping Beauty felt a bit over the place and not always in a good way.
@@captainmarvelwilson508 I think it's pretty consistent throughout and clear from after the christening that we're watching a film about the Good Fairies' perspective rather than Aurora. Even during the christening, they get a grand entrance and we cut to their perspective on Maleficent after she arrives. It treats them as the protagonists and everyone else as side characters
@@BetterWithBob I get that, and they are the best characters for me in the whole film, but other than the animation and both the fairies and Maleficent, the story while good was not the most interesting to me.
@captainmarvelwilson508 I have actually heard that the production process was a mess which explains why it's not so tight and in some ways makes it impressive that they ended up with such a coherent and inspiring story as they did. There's some pretty interesting history behind the making of these classics.
Fun fact: Mary Costa, the voice actor for Aurora, had a successful career as an Opera Singer in the years following Sleeping Beauty's release.
Oh yes, and I read an interview with her where she said she didn't have professional training when she was cast as Aurora, and that helped her seem more like a real girl who just had a magical voice.
Ok
Also, she's the oldest living voice actor for a Disney princess.
Her natural speaking voice is actually Very Southern. So that operatic voice and nailing that mid-atlantic accent is fairly impressive because I think she was 16 at the time. Though if you listen carefully you can hear a twang come in once or twice.
@@brianboru2762 Oh yeah, I either saw or read an interview where she said Walt was initially concerned about her southern accent, and asked if she could do another one
Aurora is so insanely gorgeous. I don’t even know how they came up with it. Her hair especially is insane. The golden highlights make her glow. Her face is so pretty too. The angular features and jawline are so unique. Her voice is also insanely beautiful.
It's interesting to read about the development process. The film was in production for eight years and she had the same animator the whole time - Marc Davis, who'd also animated Snow White and Cinderella. Supposedly the hair was inspired by Art Nouveau and Art Deco, and her features modelled off Audrey Hepburn, because they really wanted her to be elegant :)
Aurora was based on Audrey Hepburn.
She was my favorite princess too! I was always obsessed with her voluminous big curls ❤
But can she match Amity Blight?
@@jeffreygao3956 bro amitys cute but she also has a cat/baby face, not a human face. 💀
I don't really agree with criticism of Tiana. I'm not obsessed with her race, I just love her character and the message the movie portrays. Tiana was largely alone, ignoring everyone to pursue her dream. After she got a community of friends and family, she was able to achieve her dream. Navene was a womanizer and easy going, but he also learned that it was empty. He learned that hard work isn't something that's bad and to be avoided. It so happened that they were good for each other, but generally they enriched each other's life. That's the beauty of that movie.
Completelly agree with you !!! I actually like that their character arcs don't revolve around the villain, i like the idea they are just normal people caught in magic and have to escape from it, and had a magical jorney because of it, and their personal stuff is something they have have to resolve themselfs, sometimes you get involved with the wrong person and gets screwed over even if it wasn't your fault
Still angry at @themoviebudz1988, @TheMisadventuresofNaomiJ, and @CinemaTherapy for being misandrist bigots bashing Naveen as if his character was useless. I'm so tired of Man bashing.
@@summerrose8110 his purpose in the story was to teach Tiana to let loose, which is exactly what some people need.
@@alittleofsomething And he also came the other direction as well. He was never a bad person, just didn't take things seriously enough. Whereas she was uptight and took things too serious. They meet in the middle and find themselves all the happier for it.
@@dustinwashburn1283 exactly, seeing some kind of extra racial context to that is weird.
Another thing about BatB is that when you pay attention to Beast's character, a lot of his temper stems from depression and self-loathing. The inciting incident of him holding Maurice prisoner is because he's convinced Maurice is there to gawk at him. He flat out tells the servents that Belle will never be able to love him. Even after he screams at Belle in the West Wing, he immediately becomes sad and upset with himself for his behavior. And when does all of this stop? When he's treated with human decency. One of the major themes of the movie is the power of compassion and human connection, but those themes are weakened if you refuse to engage with the Beast as an actual 3-dimensional character instead of just sticking your fingers in your ears because he committed the cardinal sin of being mean and scary.
Excellent, excellent point
Because he’s freaking
screaming and he’s basically physically abusive he kinda reminds me of my parents
@@noorbohamad5796 Why did you have to make it about you?
@@noorbohamad5796 He is never once physically abusive.
@@lauraw2526Even THE BEAST knows never to hit a woman.
All he can do is shout.
Beast will have to fork over a few thousand francs to get that precious window fixed
You hit the nail on the head with Tiana. I absolutely love her, and I ran to the theater to see Disney's first black princess, but I couldn't help but be annoyed that the first black princess was (and still is to this day) the first and only one to have a job, be directly impacted by systemic racism, be an animal during 75% of the runtime, and have a useless (although very likable) prince. Black girls are constantly shown, in fiction and IRL, that no one is going to save us, so we have to save ourselves. What could have been a magical, fantastical adventure that happened to star a black female protagonist was just more of what we're always being fed. Can't a black woman just be rescued for once? Why are we always the ones doing all the heavy lifting? I'm with Kerry Washington on this.
Also, Jasmine is the only princess who had a law changed for her as a birthday present!
But she had my favorite confrontation with the villain in every Disney movie. seriously I can't express enough how powerful Tiana's scene with Dr Facilier is when he's trying to manipulate her.
Loved princess and the frog. It was such a unique and new concept for me growing up since all the princesses I watched were always being saved (again my thinking as a child) so seeing someone like Tiana actually inspired me and I never understood Naveen but when I grew up and watched the movie again, actually made more sense knowing now how growing up in a wealthy family and having so much privilege can make someone “out of touch” with reality or spoiled and ignorant even so it really made the story much more in depth
Wasn't the first black princess from Atlantis movie Disney had
Completely agree with you
well she is the first disney princess like former president obama are black and i'm black too, she doesn't want any fun or nothing but to work real hard to build her own restrurant before naveen in his frog form changes that.
Beauty and the Beast is not about stock home syndrome and it never was. It's about understanding other people's pain having empathy even when it seems like they're always lashing out seeing the pain behind someone's anger. And helping them to heal from that pain.
Very well put :)
EXACTLY! 😫
Yeah!! ❤
And if you watch Cinema Therapy, a licenced therapist will explain why the Stockholm Syndrome is misunderstood.
It also is very disrespectful to Beast/Adam, as well as Belle. Belle has a backbone and stood up to him. She showed him how to do certain things, again, how to be more human and in turn he genuinely found his manhood. He respected her for standing up for herself and telling him off like he deserved, he risked his life to save hers, TWICE, the second time whilst she was no longer his prisoner but a free woman. She came back for him out of love and genuine closeness, not some syndrome of trauma. He genuinely became the man he was supposed to be and was prepared to die for her. Also, he may have been rude to the enchantress. But he was also a child. A life sentence for a child being rude is some petty betty stuff.
I never noticed how much Aurora's composure changed when she found out she was a princess.
When she's living her happy peasant life, she's graceful but carefree (First barefoot pricess, even tho Rapunzel likes to claim that). Dancing, skipping, and messing about with her foster moms. And when she's in the castle (yes, she's feeling depressed), she sits still, walks rather stiffly, and does what a "princess" is expected of her.
And I always appreciated the scene of her looking in the mirror and breaking down, grieving for the life she had ripped from her. and especially thankful of the fairies for letting her have that moment instead of "oh. Keep your composure. A princess does what she's told"
Ooh very good point
I love what you said about she was the first barefoot princess because I think that’s what made me like her more and more as an adult… she has a princess’ grace but she’s kind of outsdoorsy and free spirited at heart.
@MalloryNewcomb I like to think that her and Prince Philip spend spare moments in the forest together after marrying 🖤
I always get a kick out of Cinderella not knowing the guy she's dancing with is the prince until the next day when her stepmother says it's the prince who's fallen for this girl who left her slipper behind and she's so shocked she drops the tray hence how she then knows to try on the slipper. You can actually feel the gears going on in her head at that: "Wait, I left my slipper at the ball but I never even met the prince. I only danced with...wait a minute...that man...I was dancing with...the prince!?!" lol
She's probably also a bit giddy that the guy is still crazy about her even when she ran out early lol
I would like to argue that Tiana does have a character arc. It's heavily hidden in the subtext, but it is there. Namely, she has to learn to accept help from others who are in a position to help her get what she wants, rather than do it all herself. In the beginning of the movie, Tiana is shown working herself to death trying to earn up the money just to buy the building she wants to turn into a restaurant. Not the money to renovate it and turn it into one, just to buy the building as is. She is completely focused on doing this herself, to the point that it's subtly implied her wealthy friend, who could have helped her from the start since she had a good relationship with her and her father, has to resort to hiring her as a caterer in order to help her make that goal. She doesn't start accepting financial help until her dream runs into a major roadblock that is the real estate agent's racism, mysogynistic outlook, and the fact that just buying the building isn't enough. Basically, Tiana has to learn the value of networking and cultivating beneficial relationships that help her get what she wants, and utilizing those connections.
Ah that's an interesting analysis. Sort of a 'work smarter, not harder' lesson
@@BetterWithBob Bingo! I mean, she had the fricken Mayor in her pocket, but never thought to utilize that connection! He already adored her cooking, and she was a close childhood friend of his daughter. I fail to see why he wouldn't have helped fund her dream if only to eat more of her cooking! It would certainly have made his daughter happy, and the opening scene establishes that he can't help but spoil her.
@@leshyaedawnfire Also, without Mama Odie Tiana would have given the amulet to Dr. Facilier and New Orleans would have been doomed, proving that she did learn something.
I doesn't mean matter if she gets her restaurant, the fact she saved Orleans is more than enough for Tiana's father. The restaurant is merely a bonus.
i think the whole point was that she had too much pride to accept "handouts" and didn't want to feel obligated to others or like she owed them her life. i don't think she took out loans because she valued her independence and wanted a sense of achievement, for her own self-worth.
@BetterWithBob It's also implied that her Dad literally worked himself to death.
As the daughter of a workaholic, it's such a hard balance between good character, strong work ethic, etc, and not literally selling your health/soul out to your career. I have a hard time watching my own Dad do that same. We're talking all nighters when he is in fact elderly, absurd levels of caffine consumption, doing the work of multiple people on unrealistic deadlines, not turning in business expenses such as mileage, not taking holidays, working on vacations, working while sick, etc. I followed in his footsteps only to develope a severe autoimmune disease. Now I've had to learn what it means to say "I've done enough and I owe you nothing more" Am still learning.
I feel like tiana had to learn something similiar. That she could be loved for things other than working herself to the bone.
What I enjoy about Cinderella is how she is aware of her abusive circumstances but she keeps her optimism not because its all she has left but because she believes in the future she dreams of. She could've easily given into the bitterness and darkness of her stepfamily but she makes the conscious choice to remain kind which is why she granted the opportunity to attend the ball and be rewarded the prince's love.
Ariel always has and always been my homegirl 💓 She has a strong sense of self and is unapologetic with her interests in human society, proves what an independent open minded young woman she is ready to venture and experience the joys we casually take for granted.
Also we see Ariel take on a heroic role by saving Flounder from the shark, saving Eric from drowning even though it would stir her father's wrath and risk her mermaid identity, the fake wedding with Ursula who is also banking on her failure with the contract, saving Eric from being electrocuted.
Jasmine has a luxurious lifestyle but is trapped within her royal confinments and seeks to have freedom to witness the people she'll get to rule someday. Jasmine stuns Aladdin being a virtuous, open minded woman who easily subverts the Madonna Whore complex and overlooks class to show Aladdin is worthy of value.
Pocahontas is also amazingly athletic, free spirited character who strives for a peaceful life for both her community and colonists. She is willing to sacrifice her dream to join her beau to England because she knows that her people need her more. Also she is not bland; she rather encourages people to be more open minded about their perspectives. Pocahontas stops a war because she doesn't want to see innocent people suffer.
Mulan starts off as a clumsy and scrappy young girl, but she doesn't outright reject femininity nor go on a tirade declaring I'M NOT LIKE OTHER GIRLS!!
Mulan continues to fail early on in training and showcases growth by thinking outside the box with the problems come her way. Her newfound friends (Yao Ling and Chein Po) support her in the story even after her identity has been revealed and Mulan reunites with her family with a greater sense of self of who she is and where she stands in her society.
Agreed about Cinderella, and that's what I like about the remake showing Lady Tremaine as a foil who is what Cinderella would be if she let the harshness of life make her bitter
@BetterWithBob Why can't men take their own advice on Cinderella? Women need to stay positive and not give in to the bitterness of abuse yet MEN in America go on killing sprees when they're lonely and failures socially? This isn't a gender thing, men need to take this advice too
One thing that always irritates me is how people invented "Cinderella syndrome" to summarize her as a girl who was """saved by a rich prince""". My God, the girl was practically a slave and abused by her stepmother and sisters for years. Couldn't she at least get a break from all this by finding love and an decent life? Did they want her to stay like that forever?
@@saturn1177 Exactly. They all preached on how she could've left at any time, but Cinderella had no title, no money and not many prospects to her name. It's not so easy to walk away from abusers as some would believe, because they exert power over your life at the expense of your well-being. It makes you doubt your instincts and confidence. The ball was a once in a lifetime opportunity to break out of her routine and let her hair down. When we see her entering the palace for the first time, she's anxious and unsure what to do and she's so caught up in the atmosphere of it all that she never realises she was dancing with the prince
@@ryanappleton3653 Also the fact that Cinderella didn't even know it was the prince she had danced with. When they are together and she says "I haven't meet the prince". She only finds out the next morning when he discovers that he is looking for the owner of the glass slipper. She had the opportunity to live a free night and fall in love with a man genuinely, without caring about status and if he was rich or not. It's incredible how in 2024 we need to defend and explain such obvious things to people about movies from decades ago because they don't know how to have a decent level of interpretation.
Pocahontas is such a good movie, if only it wasn't about Pocahontas. The big problem in that movie I feel is that it's essentially a fanfic of the real life Pocahontas and John Smith. If only the movie wasn't named Pocahontas, and the characters weren't named after real people, then it would've been a great movie that represented the real life history of the native americans without it butchering the very real tragic tale of Pocahontas.
Yeah originally it was going to be closer to the facts but Jeffrey Katzenberg pushed for them to make 'Romeo and Juliet in 1600s Virginia' because he wanted another film to get a Best Picture nomination after Beauty & the Beast. So their hands were basically forced to make a forbidden love story. The marketing did say it was based more on the legends and folklore but obviously that didn't go down well
So what if it was instead a flat out alternate history with Jamestown in Edo jidai Japan with John Smith having romance with a Yamato Nadeshiko(ideal Japanese beauty) named Sakura?
@@BetterWithBob well they could have maybe tried to present it a bit less Romeo & Juliet stuff...because Shakespeare is the department of Simba, Nala, Kion & Rani, Kiara & Kovu. Now say what you will about Journey to A New World, but at least if you're going to give a Disneyfication to Pocahontas...that's much closer to how it should have been in the first place.
@@Superlad9494 Which is weird because Shakespeare was active at the same time as Matoaka/Pocahontas/Rebecca Rolfe/I have many names and died in 1616. Pocahontas 2 also glosses over the fact Ratcliffe couldn’t lead an invasion of the Powhatan Kingdom because he was dead already from getting skinned alive and burned at the stake on Wahunsenecah’s orders, and that Queen Anne and King James had their personalities reversed. Still, it was pretty nice to hear the King tell Ratcliffe “No more lies! Arrest him.”
42:38 THANK YOU. This is what frustrated me with show Arya, and one thing I love about Mulan. They don't loathe 'girly' things, they're bad at them and/or would rather not be forced into them, which is exactly how I was growing up, and how I write one of my main characters. Tomboys dont have to HATE femininity. It's just not for them.
Men wrote Arya Stark.
@@suzygirl1843So what?
There is also a inportant bit of destinction that is sadly buried in this descussions about femeninety/it rejection, and that it...what does "femeninity" even mean.
People always talk like "What it is to be a man/ woman, the specific roles/duties/restrictions/characteristics each sex has, and what desires and traits are or are not girly/manly are somehow universal cocepts that have always been and as ingrained wiyhin our being as our biological sex, whuch could not be more wrong.
That there are universal differences and preferances between the two sexes is self evident and not a mater for debate
But deffineing the exact specifics of what those are?....thats a compleatly unrelated topic all together, and a great deal of it is the product of the history, culture and enviromant that the people find themselfs in, rather then any inherent traits of men and women.
You mentioned before that Mulan and Arya are "bad" at girly things, but does not likeing or not being good at these specufic "girly things" inherenrly make you less of a woman? For that mater, why does wanting to fight, not being submisive, haveing asperations outside of the household and serving ones husband inherently make you unfeminen and unwomanly?
And here lies the great failur of modern femenism. Where as traditional femenists fought against the neadlesly narrow and opresive sociatal restrictions on what a woman must be/must act/must want/must act like, and sought to expand the posebilety's what women could be, modern femenism insted see's anything conected to traditional deffenitions of femeninety as opresive, and something that must be fought against.
@@suzygirl1843 Oh do you think that's the reason? I readed a BUNCH of books writted by woman that would always described the female protagonist hating using an corset or dresses full of ties and "girlish" things, I swear
Yes
I'm so happy to see you defend Aurora! I feel like many have defended the other Princesses by now but most don't talk about Aurora who was admittedly my favourite growing up and you fully hit the nail on the coffin as to why! She's almost a bit sassy in her own way, but also has this incredibly ethereal vibe. She always reminded me of a dreamlike silhouette in a sense, which makes her feel a bit eerie at times even due to being so fantasy-esque... I think if I had to compare her to someone it would be Galadriel.
Oh yes, I think I compared her to Galadriel last week or before. And funnily enough, a lot of the ideas they used for Jasmine - sneaking out of the palace disguised as a commoner - were early plans for Aurora too
Another thing about Ariel, she didn't give up her old life because of Erick, she already wanted to live as a human, Erick was just her final motivation! She always wanted to see the human world and it wasn't just because of Erick. Being with him would only be a bonus in making her dreams come true!
Tiana's determination and kindness are adorable! I love her blue dress, it's simple but so elegant and her green wedding dress is amazing; so beautiful and unique 😍
Yes, her outfits are really great. I quite liked the dress she has in that confrontation with Facilier. Simple but very pretty
A moment I was struck by was how sweet she was to reassure Lottie when it seems like Naveen isn't turning up to the party, and then Lottie does the same by loaning her a dress
@@BetterWithBobI love Lottie! She might be spoiled but she makes sure her friend is taken care of. Tiana and Lottie make Princess and Frog one of my top favorite Princess movies. Cinderella will always be my first though. Actually Cinderella might be why I like Tiana. Tiana works hard and she is able to reap the reward of her hard work. I feel like that’s a good example. Same with Cinderella in the end she is rewarded for her hard work and perseverance.😊😄
Justice for Tiana, our first and only black princess 🤍
@Shaw2Sebastianhush
Nah, Tiana is already perfect. There is no need to defend her when she can do no wrong.
@@kevinsafar exactlyyyy, she's great
@Shaw2Sebastianyou ppl are always lurking in the shadows huh? It's giving obsessed
@Shaw2Sebastiandamn, you just can help your racism.
Been waiting for someone to call out nostalgia critic for nearly 2 decades at this point. Thank you!
Ah there's been plenty of others I've seen doing it as well but thanks :)
Kissing a passed loved one on the cheek or lips at a funeral viewing is a normal thing to do as a sign of respect and saying goodbye in many cultures. Do I do this at funerals? No. But even as a child I knew and understood what it was. Plus, in the context of the movies, it's "true love's kiss".
This and the rest of the movies, what Disney could have been doing with their remakes is giving more context into different cultural norms and explanations to what made these characters so important for their time periods. Instead of trying to "fix" their characters. They could have expanded upon their traits without rewriting the characters completely.
Very good point!
I remember my grandmother doing this to my mothers’ body when she passed and my teenage self was so icked out… but now as an adult I completely understand it.
right
If they’re gonna do that stupid live action, the least they can do is show the the audience the meaning of a goodbye at a funeral
Show Snow White and the Prince at the Queen’s funeral. The king kissing his wife goodbye to show his undying love for her. Show snow white kissing her mom’s forehead or cheek to say goodbye too. That way the audience can clearly understand that it’s both a culture thing, and a good story element for foreshadowing
It would make the prince’s kiss hit harder at the end. Because in his eyes, she would have done the same if they were given a chance to have a romance as loving as Snow White’s parents. A love, which in the prince’s eyes, was taken too soon.
@@ladygreenwithenvy they did it in the huntsman movie and the three stooges in snow white movie but the prince didn't kiss her but sorta kinda held her in his hands.
2:20 Snow White
7:49 Cinderella
12:01 Aurora
17:26 Ariel
19:31 Belle
27:31 Jasmine
33:52 Matoaka...I mean Pocahontas...I mean Rebecca Rolfe
41:26 Hua Mulan
49:20 Tiana
57:17 Conclusion
Now here's the chapters! Your days of running are OVER!
What about the other Disney princesses Disney don't acknowledge like the one From Atlantis if I remember correctly was Also black and the princess from the black cauldron I don't remember their names because it's been several years since I saw them
@@dennisbeaman958 Kida’s fought in World War I, Eilonwy was from a book first(seriously The Black Cauldron is actually more unfaithful of an adaptation than the Petrova Johansson movies), and they are indeed underrated. Same with Kilala Reno
Wait, is Mulan the only princess who has a last name?
@@justarandomhumann Technically yes and remember Asian name order has the family name first unlike in Europe and (Africa?)
Thank you for this
Good to see someone point out many of the things about Aurora/Briar Rose's personality. Yes, she doesn't have as many lines or screentime as other characters, but they make every second count to SHOW her personality rather than list things we never see. Heck, we can infer more from what we see, such as how she never questions why her animal friends come wearing clothes. Either she doesn't think it's that odd, or they have done this before.
And then there's her name. She was born Aurora but raised as Briar Rose. Imagine the identity crisis that could make her go through, from needing to act out Aurora while truly being Briar Rose. And then there's the fact she was raised by three fairies. The Fae tend to have different ways of thinking, which is why Maleficent couldn't find them as she never thought any fairy would give up their magic selflessly. So, how did being raised by fairies, even ones pretending to be human, affect Briar Rose's upbringing? Her values?
Yes, some things are affected by the time they were made, but there is still so much timelessness about them and little things that speak volumes. You just have to be willing to dig deep.
Excellent analysis
Aurora was always my favorite, so underrated
She really is!
I appreciate her singing voice and design, but to me she is really boring, not because I am against traditional feminine roles that a lot of these princesses have, it is because she is mostly just a McGuffin for her story that is not carried by her, but by the fairy godmothers. I would have enjoyed her more if she actually had something more to do other than sleeping. Something that is not much of a problem with Cinderella who actually does some stuff to make her situation better.
she's honestly more mature and level-headed than most of the princesses we have now (except for Belle of course)
@@captainmarvelwilson508 the Enchanted Tales dvd did try to give her something and some deleted scenes also show her having something...all scenes point to her being a Proto-Tiana...she really doesn't care about magic, she likes doing things the hard way and actually seems to be more in to being "the animal lady" amongst the group...must come with having aunts that are fae.
Same
It’s my favorite princess movie
Sleeping Beauty is a very different kind of princess movie. It has a duty emphasis and structure the others don't. It also plays closer to a classic drama. It's originality makes up for it's lean characters.
And there is still subtlety in the dialogue that I like.
People seem to forget that Aurora has the most beautiful singing voice. Even disney. I think it's her most defining character trait.
Yeah supposedly Sleeping Beauty was Walt trying to do an experimental movie like Fantasia but within the princess formula that had worked with Snow White and Cinderella to still make it more commercial. Even the music is taken from Tchaikovsky's ballet.
It ends up feeling quite Tolkienesque, with Aurora feeling a bit like Arwen or Galadriel in parts.
It's one of many reasons why I loved her early on. The art style and the fairies are others.
This artstyle makes you think of a castle tapestry...quite elegant.
What do you mean a duty emphasis?
@@MalloryNewcomb she cares more about her kingdom than herself and puts literally everything aside to be the proper princess after a brief sigh. Sometimes you have to do that even when it is hard.
At first i was taken aback by the statement that Ariel is an abuse victim too, because c'mon, Triton wasn't as bad as that, and then "She gets punished for a feeling, not an action" punched me through a brick wall. Oh wow. She sure did, didn't she. Overprotectiveness is also a form of abuse, too, even without the prejudice, isn't it. I wonder why i specifically had the instincive reaction to justify the abusive father and didn't even recognise the tactics as abuse at first....
@@Cationna I only just had a realisation the other day as well. When Triton first hears that Ariel might be in love, he thinks it's cute and starts giggling "I wonder who the lucky merman could be". He only gets angry when he finds out it's a human
@@BetterWithBob There is a bit more to it as well. Ariel is objectified due to her singing voice. Triton does this with the concerts and uses her as a way to make himself look better*, Sebastian does this to further his career, Ursula does this by thinking Ariel could never get anyone to lover her without the help of her voice, and Eric does this by rejecting the possibility that Ariel might be the one who saved him because she couldn't speak when he met her. It never even occurred to him that she might have lost her voice after the rescue despite evidence that Ariel had recently lost her voice. Only a handful of major characters don't do this, Flounder, and Scuttle. Is it any wonder that they are her two best friends?
*This is similar to how narcissists will use their children as an extension of themselves. Triton might not be a narcissist, but that particular aspect is quite similar.
@@Cerebrum123 your comment made me realize how extremely similar he is to the abuela from encanto (who is arguably also kind of abusive to her family)
@@queenglimmer444 I haven't seen Encanto, so I don't know how similar they are, but what little I do know of Abuela does make her seem somewhat emotionally abusive. I'd say Mother Gothel and Lady Tremaine take the cake in that department among Disney parents.
I came to my conclusion after seeing so many people attacking the fact that the story has Ariel give up her voice and decided to analyze the story further. This was also during a period in which I was studying psychology and abuse. It has been rather enlightening and has made my opinion of the story even higher.
The complaint I've seen constantly is a strawman that the story has her "give up her voice for a man". They take this as her symbolically giving up her ability to make decisions and have autonomy. However, this doesn't match the story at all. She gains more autonomy by giving up her voice. Verbal capacity =/= autonomy despite the claims of some. In fact, such a claim is rather ableist toward mute people. Also, Ariel is given the chance to get Eric to love her without her constantly objectified voice as an obstacle in the way of them getting to know each other. Let's be honest, if she had her voice when she first met Eric, he would have probably tried to marry her then and there without getting to know her. That wouldn't have been true love, and she would have failed her end of the contract without Ursula needing to meddle. Taking away Ariel's voice was Ursula's greatest mistake, because now Eric has had a chance to truly love Ariel for who she is and not just have an infatuation with her voice. Also, if Ariel had failed even with her voice, that would have led to a complete demoralization and despair. Instead, Ursula had two people very willing to fight for the people they loved most and against someone who had wronged both of them in terrible ways.
@@Cerebrum123 for someone who preached about "not underestimating body language" ursula sure did underestimate non-verbal communication a lot... but then again she probably didn't really believe everything she was saying, she was probably just saying whatever she thought could convince ariel to agree to the deal lol
By the logic people use to say prince Philip was wrong to kiss Aurora: then it is also wrong to provide cpr to unconscious victims who cannot consent even if to save their life. The only way to break the curse was a kiss! Prince Philip didn't make out with her or anything, it was a 5 second kiss! Whats worse: not waking someone from a lifelong coma or giving them a 5 second kiss?!
Also btw for Snow White prince haters: it was also a short kiss to say goodbye and also the prince isn't 30, thats an internet rumor, rather he is around 18 (just look at how he is drawn: similar height to snow, round youthful face, and no facial hair).
Yep, projection basically
I have to argue, cpr, which is known to save lives, isn't the same as a kiss.
But I have to admit, that I never really watched Sleeping Beauty (Shame, I should finally do that), so I don't know, if Philip did know that the kiss might save her life. If he did, the kiss is comparable to cpr, but if he didn't, it is not. Still, the point about non-verbal consent still stands.
@@Leshantra There is a scene where Maleficent say to Philip that only his kiss can awake Aurora, he know that's the only way to break the curse. Also, the fairies were present during the scene too, and they want their "daughter" to wake up.
@@ceciliamarinello7129 Thank you for clarifying!
omg. You absolutely nailed why I love and resonate with Mulan so much, especially as a woman.
The discussion about her not antagonizing femininity (despite her tomboish nature) and realizing that it is hard work to be respected as one in the traditional way, is so on point. For me, all of Mulan's traits and even personality resonate so much. She doesn't start or end the movie like "fck being a woman" or "damn, men are so much cooler, only way to be respected, right?", but she shows that you can still be a woman and be respected even if she is not this perfect, regal queen. Even after training with a bunch of men, she didn't think "hellz yeah, I am better now", in fact it even forced her more to understand what her strengths were all along and rely on them to push on. Her cleverness, and yes, her tenderness as a woman brought peace to a war that has so far been fought with only brute strength.
Excellent analysis :)
I actually relate plenty to Mulan trying to fit in among the men and failing miserably myself lol
aurora is my favourite, a kind and beautiful woman who never wanted to hurt anyone.
there’s no shame in having any of those traits! i think it’s admirable the earliest princesses were kind no matter the circumstances. esp with cinderella. as a kid i never thought ‘i should just sit around and wait to be rescued’ like what everyone says the princesses taught girls. aurora taught me to be kind no matter what. yeah, i think they’re all great.
Aurora is and was always my favorite.
Aurora was barley in the movie get real 😂
@@arnezryan519 barely*
@@laurenxoxo7499 ok my grammar might be off but your favorite princess being a girl who sleeps threw most of her film is crazy 😭😂
@@arnezryan519 through*
Cinema Therapy's resident therapist, Jono Decker, explains Belle's situation nicely in their Beauty and the Beast episode directly addressing the accusation of Stockholm Syndrome.
Ah very good
@@BetterWithBob If anything I would say the Beast has Lima Syndrom. Described as the opposite of Stockholm Syndrome. Lima Syndrome is a psychological response in which a victimizer or captor develops a positive connection with their victim.
Beauty and the Beast is not about Stockholm Syndrome. She didn’t fall in love with him while she was trapped, it was only broken after she was set free and chose to come back to save the Beast. It’s about looking deeper than skin to see someone’s beauty, rather than just at someone’s appearance. When Beast’s curse is broken, she doesn’t immediately recognize him. She looks deeper to see his kindness, that he really is the person she loved.
And the charmed fun fact of the day that Ariel was based on Alyssa's image
Lol yep. And she had no idea until they asked her to host a making of special
I LOVE AURORA SO MUCH, I actually find her so funny in the one scene where she's telling the animals her dream and ending it with "And then... I woke up." How is that not the most relatable thing you have heard?
Respectfully Tiana is one of the strongest ones along with mulan and Pocahontas
To each their own XD
They’re arguably ALL STRONG
Aw the dress being her mother's wedding dress makes it even sadder
Doesn't it 😥
The Prince is not gonna be happy to hear about this!
@@jeffreygao3956 n
no
@@jeffreygao3956 No he is not, if anything when Prince Auguste found out...well let's just say he told the baker to triple the workloads of Lady Tremaine and Drizella since Anastasia at least actually bothered to say sorry and show she meant it what with meeting a nice baker and all and then asking her sister for help.
@@Superlad9494 I honestly expected him to bring out the lawyers and sue Lady Tremaine but that is still well deserved.
I hate when people claim Ariel changed herself for a man, especially by time the live action was in production. Because if they have actually seen, they would know that is simply not true and have missed the ENTIRE point and message of the original film.
They seem to mix it up with the original fairy tale, where that's what the mermaid did, and of course there the moral was about unrequited love lol
Ok I feel the disney princess should be rename to ''DISNEY HEROINES'' Instead so that all female charecters in disney can be included in the line-up that arent diseny princesses.
The origins of the franchise are pretty fascinating. Someone had just been promoted to president of Disney's Consumer Products division and went to a Disney On Ice Show - noticing how many little girls were wearing homemade costumes based on the princesses - and they created it to market to them.
The majority of the heroines they dressed up as were princesses, since only Mulan couldn't be considered one in any sense, as even Pocahontas refers to herself as a princess to King James in the sequel (and in real life she actually was presented as one to the English). Esmeralda was included for a while but got dropped because her products didn't sell as much.
I imagine they go with 'Princess' because it's easy to say and rolls off the tongue. The male counterpart was initially 'Disney Adventurers' but renamed to 'Disney Heroes' for similar reasons
highly recommend babbity kate's series on Disney Princess and The Pink Void (its mostly on tiktok but i think every video has been compiled into a single, long video on here!) for info on it!
@@BetterWithBob Honestly, Esmeralda's film is also more...adult appropriate being more like Game of Thrones so her being a Disney Princess might've made things a little awkward.
But I want to be a princess, not a heroine D=
There should just be a second line, to let girls have the option to dream about both.
Or just keep the one and dilute the possibilities of what a princess can be.
@@BetterWithBob and Pocahontas was declared as such in the same way Mulan was even in real life...just an insurance purpose...or else...I mean her ex literally warned them about making her angry because he had already done that. Sidenote: John Rolfe only Disney Prince who can call a princess crazy and live.
See, my issue is . Why does the first BLACK princess have to be the one who had to Actually work and earn money before her prince could come? But on the flip side i loved the fact that their love wasnt forced it was built through experiences. I loved the fact that because she worked for her own goals and dreams he wasnt a need in her life but eventually a want.
Am I the only one who really doesn’t care? So what if she works? She has dreams and will work to get them. Why does her being black have to be a huge deal. I literally don’t care about what race a princess is as long as she’s well written. (A black girl)
Everyone technically had to work hard.
I’m gonna stop you at the Tiana thing, Tiana obsessing over working hard is mainly from the perspective of BLACK women who in that time period (and most of American history) aren’t afforded the same luxury to just work regularly. Carrying the burden of not just being women, but also being Black in a society never built for them. The saying _“I have to work 10x harder for the same things”_ not only accounts for how Black people are systematically disadvantaged but also how many of us are too busy having to work that we can’t even rest or do things we like or want. Which is why Tiana working for her own restaurant, a goal SHE strived for IS subversive- it's just not something for someone of your background to have the cultural context to register while Black viewers mostly did. That's her Books, her surface world, her "prince" at first.
Calling her a 'girl boss' that 'checks off talking points' comes off as very microaggressive because somehow you can claim the historical inaccuracies and uncomfortable depictions of Jasmine and Pocahontas (who are still caricatures) don't fully matter bc their characters are good, but then Tiana's character is a problem despite her being the DIRECT generation of Black women who had to grow up really young to survive just like her; where fairytales weren't even a thought because in a world of racism and misogynoir, the real modern world, what prince is gonna come especially for a black girl?
I’m not denying that Princess and the Frog is a poor movie, but I feel like there is a line of you just not being Black and getting that there are parts of our history and lives you will never get. It’s not just “answering to internet arguments” that movie came out in *2009* Twitter wasn’t even a thing yet….
It wasn't on Twitter then. It was on websites like Cracked.com and internet message boards. There was some of it on RUclips as well. Before social media became widespread there were these websites dedicated to this sort of thing. And Twitter was created in 2006, and had already taken off by 2007. 2009 was even the year it won an award for being such a success
@@BetterWithBob however back then Twitter was not the platform for such reactionary talking points that most people see it as today. Just in general, the claim that it was “because of the internet” only works for a certain frame of social media’s lifetime. Before so, the development of PATF was mainly bits and pieces that managed to make it to the public like the original name and concept for Tiana. Aspects that would’ve actually been uncomfortable given how annoyingly dismissive the creators were to such a project.
It’s trying to apply the concept of ‘woke pandering’ to a decade that had just operated as per usual- making stories their way unless something had to be called on. However, my main concern is how you immediately jumped to painting Tiana as this scapegoat of “diversity girl boss pandering” singling her out as wrong only to justify the actual poor representations of princesses like Pocahontas with very shallow points that sum up to “she has a pretty smile, a wonder filled personality and says the obvious morals (that the movie actively undermines)”
@@sunnybear178 💯👏
@@BetterWithBob It's crazy that OP had a well-thought-out and well-intended comment and you replied to them with “Well, umm... You see 🤓”. Your response, in my opinion, just verified everything the op has commented on. Also, the title of this video is nuts... “Defending every Disney princess except the black one because being black is inherently problematic” is what it's giving.
I also can't believe you straight up started to compare a black woman's work ethic to the work ethic of white women who for the most part grew up in a fairly good lifestyle and never really needed to work (yes this includes Cinderella, Mulan, Jasmine, Pocahontas, etc.).
Now yes, Tiana's father wanted a restaurant as his dream but you can't say Tiana only got the restaurant to make her father proud because we know Tiana is also passionate about cooking and food. You make it seem like she only wants the restaurant because her father never got it, like no, she wanted the restaurant so she could showcase her skills and signature dishes, not to mention being your own boss as a black person would have meant to her. It's a bonus that is the same building her father wanted and it's a bonus that she gets to do something he also probably worked himself the death for. Plus, Tiana does have a community and friends, we see them invite her out but guess what... She can't go because she's working to save up money for her dream. And Lottie is her friend so why are you making it seem like we don't see different aspects of her life?
I would continue to pick apart the rest of your Tiana section but overall it just sounds like you praised everyone else for all the same reasons why you hate Tiana. Which makes me believe your problem is not with the movie but something much deeper than that because ain't no way you can say a thousand nice things about every other princess but don't have one good thing to say about the only black woman. 😭
If you recall the video, I say "I don't think Tiana is a bad character or even bad representation but she's the bullet points", as well as pointing out that I found her design beautiful, Anika Noni Rose gave a good performance, "Almost There" being a song I enjoyed and spotlighted one moment I loved. One of my lines was also "even if I think Tiana is the weakest one, it's only because her predecessors set the bar so high". I apologise if it wasn't clear in the video - sometimes I assume what I'm communicating will be obvious when perhaps I could have made it clearer - I think she is 'fine' as a character. Not terrible, not great, just 'fine'.
My point was that they played it safe with her and they didn't lean into these aspects that could have made her great. They took inspiration from Leah Chase but filed off the more radical parts of her story - and she was motivated by giving her community access to food that was served at whites only restaurants, whereas Tiana has no community beyond those friends who have a couple of lines and scoff about her working too hard rather than supporting her. Fine if they wanted to ignore dark topics like racism in a children's film, but they specifically set it during a time when race relations were terrible and nodded to segregation being a thing, so it seems like a trying to have the cake and eat it too situation.
My way of fixing it would be to have Tiana's friends be more supportive, so that when she's told she won't get the building, she also worries about letting down the people who believed in her, and then she would go to Facilier herself to make some kind of deal - and possibly have second thoughts midway through and the next half of the movie is dodging Facilier. She's just too disconnected from the movie's main conflict, and it feels like you need to use head canon to fill in this stuff that feels too vague to me in the story
I can't say I like how you seem to be trying to attach a moral value to me saying I didn't like a character, providing the reasons why, discussing the behind the scenes issues that led to the aspects of the character I wasn't wild about, and while still praising some parts I did like, and also saying "not to invalidate anyone who connects to the recent princesses more than the classic ones" - acknowledging that Tiana has plenty of fans even if I'm not one of them. People are allowed to not like the same things as you and no one has to be demonised for not liking a character you like - surely there are bigger issues to worry about in this world than whether someone likes or dislikes a character in a children's movie. I'm going to end this conversation now. I wish you well.
I very much dislike the way you talked about Tiana. Tiana is based on a real person who's strategy WAS hard work. Tiana isn't bossy. She just doesn't like Naveen at the start but she was never at all bossy. Her song is about hard work because that's what she as a black woman is taught to value. And she gets her resturant because the point wasn't she should give up on that dream but that she should've forget what's ALSO important. With all due respect the title already came off as a possible red flag but your criticism of her feels just as shallow as you claim her character is.
That's not to say Princess and the frog can't be criticized but your criticism ignores alot of what is done well with her character and feels worse when you conjure the idea of racism for Ariel while ignoring the opression Tiana faces and the fact a girl being able to have her dream and true love AND saying the prince should give up his life to follow her rather then the other way around WAS subversive.
Leah Chase is her name, and her motivation was to bring food to her community that was otherwise only available in whites only restaurants. Tiana has no community, and her best friend is a white girl, with her actively turning down opportunities to socialise with her black friends. Leah was very political, with her restaurant being one of the only public places black people could meet and discuss strategy during the Civil Rights era. The movie establishes that segregation is a thing but doesn't work it into the story
Also Naveen giving up his life for the girl is nothing new. Aladdin, Hercules, Milo and technically Simba had all given up their lifestyles out of motivation for the girl. The 'prince starts out as a jerk but then matures' had also been done over and over - the Beast, Simba, Kuzco. And the dynamic of a hard working no nonsense black woman and a lazy womanising man is such a stereotype
well said
@@BetterWithBob and yet you still excuse the depiction of Pocahontas- that is nothing like the real girl she is based on- because she has a "likeable personality" from what you're arguing. Despite being exactly what you criticized Tiana for, Pocahontas is "subversive" when she practically is telling the audience its morals out her mouth, checking off boxes, both siding colonization over a man that simply peeks her interests. The Oscar bait movie is okay, but the other one with a different path for womanhood bc of social differences is the bad one...
Yes, sadly seems to be a very blind spot of his. Other points are spot on and yet the points about Tiana are not. Very weird.
@@sunnybear178
Pocahontas is such a weird film. Great music, but why make a movie about historical people while not respecting history? Then combine it with the second movie, which is closer to actual history, and everything just becomes more weird.
As a Native, Pocahontas was bad for using Matoaka tragedy & promoting stereotypes. Growing up I had to deal with ignorant people who think this is who we are & people dressing Indian because Pocahontas was their favorite movie.
why is it weird for non-natives to be dressing as the Disney pocahontas? they are just characters. unless you mean ppl dressing up as indians in general
@@X3nophiliac It’s weird & wrong for anybody to dress as Pocahontas because she’s base on a real person known as Matoaka. She was a victim who was kidnapped & sexually assaulted.
@@forbiddensnack2917 yes but literally in this video they talked about how movie pocahontas is NOTHING like real life pocahontas. shes very obviously a work of fiction in this movie thats only shares a name and culture with the REAL pocahontas
i see no issue of any person of any race dressing up as a fictional character
@@X3nophiliac Bruhhh 😑
I am native too and last I checked, you don't speak for all of us. Besides, they just used the names and nothing more. Change the names and there goes all this historical inaccuracy crap. Furthermore Disney never claims the movie to be an accurate retelling. Playing the "Native" card doesn't make you urban or alternative from white pop culture.
1:01 They do realise that was to rescue her right? It was the only way to free her. Besides, how could she give 'consent' when she was in a magically induced sleep? That's like saying a drowning victim needs to give consent before you perform cpr on them.
Yep, projection meets bad faith criticism
IIRC people HAVE been sued for trying to help others out. Not sure how successful those lawsuits were, but it has happened. It really doesn't surprise me that people think that you shouldn't try to help someone if they can't give explicit consent.
Exactly. I notice this a lot.
Fictional woman needs help = Damsel
Woman cooks or cleans = Housewife
Woman gets kissed without her directly saying "it's fine" = Man is a pervert
Yet in real life, none of these scenarios when they happen cause a hullaballoo. Feminists FREAK when these things happen in fiction, they really think a CARTOON meant to entertain is some secret sinister brainwashing conspiracy.
Drowning victim. You try the Heimlich maneuver and it doen't work and you need to do mouth to mouth. "But DON'T! CONSENT REMEMBER?"
Say, you grew up in like, Yahtzee invaded Poland, or a Japanese American who got interned, and you're a woman. By technical definition you would be a damsel in distress.
People, both man and woman, have to do chores. My mom has to cook and clean and wash clothes. Does that make her a "housewife"? Why is it that doing BASIC LIFE SKILLS makes you a "housewife" but a man who does the same thing isn't a "househusband"? This is not the 50s, it's 2024. Chores is no longer considered a "housewife" thing.
Also, if feminists want a perverted Sleeping Beauty, there IS one. The Italian version of the story has the prince actually R*PE Princess Talia in her sleep and gets her pregnant, and then she marries him anyway despite him violating her. THAT is a sinister story.
@@EuroMIX2 if it's a choice between life or death, consent can go screw itself.
@@EuroMIX2this is why we have Good Samaritan laws now
Mulan, Pocahontas, and Jasmine were always my favorite ❤❤❤
Great choices XD
Same here, with Tiana as Number 1😸
As an Arab, I have to say that while Aladdin features a lot of great things, "good representation" is not one of them. The issue with Jasmine's outfit has nothing to do with period accuracy and everything to do with how she is dressed as a stereotypical belly dancer/ harem girl archetype (despite her being a literal princess). Her being far more sexualized (they literally had her seduce the villain as an escape strategy) than her white counterparts is also not unrelated to her being middle eastern. That is orientalism plain and simple, and it affects how every part of this film is portrayed, I just focused on Jasmine because that's what this video was about. I adore Jasmine (and Aladdin in general), I think she's such a fun and enjoyable character, definitely one of my favorite princesses, but it would be ignorant to say that harmful stereotypes about the middle east played no part in the portrayal of her character. We can enjoy Aladdin and simultaneously acknowledge the crappy way it depicted Arabs.
That's a fair point, and would I be correct in saying that the costume she's wearing was more a creation of European writers and further from traditional dress?
How do you feel about the remake and its attempts to be more accurate, yet casting an actress with Indian heritage as Jasmine as opposed to Arab?
@@BetterWithBob Yeah Jasmine's outfit doesn't really look like any traditional dress. The closest thing it bears a resemblance to is a bellydancer outfit and even then bellydancers don't walk around wearing that, it's a costume they put on for when they perform. It being presented as everyday casual wear looks quite odd, especially for a character of royal lineage. I imagine the filmmakers took inspiration from western depictions of Arabs in other films (the "harem girl" is a very common stereotype when it comes to middle eastern women) and old orientalist paintings. Those paintings included a lot of depictions of harems and eastern women being portrayed as submissive sexual objects. That would explain why they included a scene of Aladdin passing through a brothel in the beginning of the movie and probably inspired Jafar having Jasmine in chains too. So to answer your question, yes I do believe that Jasmine's outfit was a result of how Europeans depict middle eastern dress (aka orientalist outfit). I will say though, that even though Jasmine was designed after a white woman, she did somehow end up looking Arab. Like if we're talking about her facial features, her make up style, hair texture and skin color, you'd definitely be able to find a bunch of Arab women who like that. The hairstyle doesn't strike me as particularly Arab though.
Don't even get me started on the live action remake. Their so called "attempts" at being more accurate made it even worse than the original movie. One of the issues with the animated film was that they fused south asian elements into what was clearly meant to be a middle eastern setting, making it seem like all brown people are interchangeable. Instead of fixing this by removing the south asian aspects and focusing on accurately presenting Arab culture, they doubled down even more with the costumes, casting and leaning into this bollywood approach to some of the scenes. I'm not someone who looks forward to live action remakes of animated movies but if they used this as an opportunity to lean into the Arab setting, there might have actually been a point to it in this case. The casting for Jasmine was incredibly disappointing, and I'm saying this as a fan of Naomi Scott. It feels like they robbed Jasmine of her Arabness as well as robbed an Arab actress of this role, it just really sucks considering how underrepresented Arabs are in mainstream media. Jasmine is one of the only mainstream Arab characters we have and they've made her Arabness ambiguous (I've unfortunately seen so many people genuinely think that she's Indian).
I just find it very disappointing that Disney would go on trips to China, Norway and Colombia for Mulan, Frozen and Encanto but never visited a single Arab country for either production of Aladdin. It shows they care way less about our culture, while profiting off of its aesthetics. Anyways, thanks for showing interest and asking questions. I'm usually met with "why are you taking a kids movie so seriously" when I talk about this stuff.
@@ohood1788 Well, maybe you'd have different feelings about Magi: The Magic of Labyrinth? Admittedly, it's a shallow argument but Aladdin is hardly the worst depiction of Arab peoples.
@@ohood1788 at least Naomi Scott's for Jasmine dress actually looks more regal though and not nearly as half-baked as Emma Watson's Belle dress (did they even try?). That said...Disney Parks at one point just turned her wedding dress from King of Thieves to her usual Aquamarine with leggings under it for safety purposes....maybe try that some time in her regular merch?
@@Superlad9494 Sure it looked more regal, but not Arab in the slightest.
"Guys, she's on Team Bear." 😅😅😂😂
I spat out my tea on that line. Huzzah!
This video is now number 2 on my fave vids from you. The Cole Problem is still number 1.
Great job on the editing by the way.
Thank you for shouting out Lindsay Ellis as well. Between Lindsay, you and the Trope Talk series by Red over on Overly Sarcastic Productions my own writing has improved greatly. I'm currently writing a homebrew 5e D&D campaign set within the Stargate SG-1 universe.
Looking forward to your next video. Love from Australia.
I should have also said she was on Team Tree as well but alas, missed opportunity
Snow White is definitely a reflection of the period the movie was made during: The Great Depression. People looked at her during one of the bleakest times to be alive in the U.S. Some people had to sell the tires off their truck (their only possession) just to eat... The Whistle While you Work was how people dealt with working terrible jobs with meager wages, just because they were lucky enough to be working. With a smile and a song is another positive song dealing with when you hit rock bottom and need to keep moving through all the punches. Adrianna Caselotti is the most distinct princess voice of any of them, and she was exactly the attitude people needed through their darkest hours, even through the World War that was lingering just a few years away.
Ever After is my favorite version of Cinderella.
I actually only saw that for the first time last year. Drew Barrymore calls it her favourite role too
my fave too, followed closely by the brandy one
@@acorlite Oh I haven't seen Brandy's version, but I've heard she kills it (James A Janisse of The Kill Count called her "the best Cinderella" in one of his videos)
Thank you for making this!! You don’t know how long I’ve tried to forget how much I loved classic Disney princesses because of complaints like ‘belle has Stockholm syndrome’, ‘aurora has no personality’. Now I’m going to rewatch all these movies with just pure love I had for them when I was a kid.
Thank you for your lovely comment :) Enjoy your rewatches!
lets not forget about ariel wanting to be of our world long before meeting eric, when she falls for him he just cherry on already made sundae (which translate she want go on land and share that experience with him), whole given up her voice was all ursula a villain who follows advice of a villain plus she was so uneasy in whole scene she was with ursula. in whole shipwreck sign she saves flounder before getting her back bag i go on
Yep yep yep
This was a great set of takes. Personally, I think Belle might be my favorite, but Mulan is up there too. I have to admit that I am one of those people that don't have a great opinion of Arial but your perspective has shown a new light on her so I'll definitely be reconsidering my opinions on her.
I'll definitely be recommending this video to my Disney fan friends. Thanks for the video!
Thanks for watching :)
I think what plays into the kiss in sleeping beauty being seen is problematic is an older version of the original fairy tale in which instead of a kiss the prince did some more... explicit things to her.
Of course it's not at all like that in the movie but I think if someone knows about that it just makes all versions of the fairy tale a bit uncomfortable.
@@sammy5068 hmm possibly yeah. Same with how people mix up Ariel's story with the mermaid from the original
Let’s be honest, Belle had the best dress out of all of them.
I like Aurora's best in its simplicity
Nah it’s too yellow.
I think I’m biased on Cinderella’s dress because it’s so traditionally princess in my mind. Possibly because she’s one of the first princesses I remembered watching most
I agree. That dress looked like it represented Belle’s free and kindered spirit and has the most layered design.
@@cathygrandstaff1957Seriously? That’s it?
With all the live actions coming out, I've rewatched all these movies and I have a renewed appreciation for the beautiful and nuanced story telling of each. I love all these princesses, I think they are each excellent and unique characters.
I understand people's criticisms about Pocahontas, but I have always (I was born in '91) found it an incredibly powerful story about racism. It really spoke to me in particular because of the racism I grew up seeing my mum face, and I found myself tearing up at the clips you showed.
Also, I loved the snippet of GoT discussion, any chance of any more? I have always been feminine and I'm disabled so I couldn't overpower anyone, so I appreciate it when people value all the ways in which people can be strong, rather than thinking it's only physical strength that counts. I have always found Snow White, Cinderella and Sansa incredibly strong characters.
Thank you for your comment :) Were you meaning more discussions on GOT specifically?
@@BetterWithBob Yes, sorry for rambling 😅
I get frustrated when people hate Sansa when I think she's the most realistic character and unbelievably strong, but people don't see that because it's not physical strength. It comes down to society valuing "male" characteristics more highly than "female", so Arya and Brienne are instantly favourites (I love them, too, don't get me wrong) but those who are not physically talented are, in general, grudgingly tolerated.
Would've been better if Ratcliffe kept the "Their whole disgusting race's like a curse" line. Would've made him hit home harder!
@@jeffreygao3956 There was another lyric "dirty redskin devils" that gets changed to "dirty shrieking devils" that also makes the English settlers more obviously in the wrong, which is still there in the finished version but could have been made clearer
@@BetterWithBob Talk about toning down racism...
Sometimes a woman wants to be saved.
Oh my, thank you SO MUCH for your take on The Sleeping Beauty! Aurora's always been my fav among all the princesses, and it kinda frustrates me that there's rarely anyone with a positive attitude to her.
You highlighted some really interesting things, I completely agree ❤
(Also you're totally right about Malificent, why can't we just accept that women can be evil just for the sake of being evil, you know, FOR FUN)
Upd: you mentioned Linsey Ellis, and I'll love you forever
Hehe Lindsay is one of the reasons I got into this sort of thing to begin with 😅
With Ariel and “I feel for her dad, she is an idiot”… ehm… I’m an adult now and I still get ptsd-like flashbacks when Triton starts to YELL at his daughter and COMMAND she listen to his orders 😳
Yeah, I had a dad like that. One who was never there; who always needed to be right, who would shake me violently if I even rolled my eyes at his illogical order (I only did that ONCE and I still have the scar on me to this day!) and when ordered to cease the crying (becauee it made him look bad and over the top to react so violently) I told my parents I was bleeding and it hurt. Mother even supported him, accusing me of saying my dad had DEMONIC POWERS “to make you bleed when he ‘hardly touched you’ “ like what the hell.
Okay, traumatic rant over.
But when people say that, I think back to all the times in my childhood and think “they have NO clue how scared a young girl can get from such outbursts and yelling!”
Triton is somewhat being reasonable. Eric could have been a pirate like the pirates that killed Ariel’s mother as explained in a prequel story. I can see the reasoning behind both Ariel’s and Triton’s perspectives. Triton fears for Ariel’s safety because of what happened to his wife because of bad humans. We can see that he is being overprotective because of that trauma.
I don't really take the sequels as canon. But let's say for the sake of argument he was concerned about that - Ariel took time to size Eric up, and noted that the reason he didn't get onto the lifeboat with everyone else is because he was trying to save Max - someone risking their life to save an animal is a pretty big green flag. Triton doesn't try to find out Ariel's perspective of the situation and whether she used good judgement - he goes straight on the attack and focuses on the 'how dare you not do exactly as I say'. And while having trauma may explain why he's acting that way, it wouldn't excuse it.
What the video is trying to save is that Triton is not perfect because he is trying to change - but also you shouldn't be really cheering for him either because he's an enraged bigot and he's the main reason as to why Ariel goes to see Ursula and why his daughter goes missing. Some people see Triton as the wise and smart one, when he's abusive and intolerant and basically well, racist. It's Triton that needs the teaching and the learning, not Ariel. Ariel is just a victim.
I agree that his emotions are valid, the way he dealt with them are immature and wrong.
24:15 also Belle said she wanted adventure at first. Then she has her adventure. Then she decides, NAH, I'm choosing LOVE as my adventure, I'm not going anywhere near danger again.
I think a lot of it is also how much exposure people have had to supplementary movies and TV shows. Most the Disney Princesses were fine in their own movies, they had flaws but it was human to have flaws. Most the real problems with their characters came from the awful direct to video sequels, TV series and what ever little shorts they had in the "princess line" movies.
Dude did you say Naveen didn't agree to it while showing the exact shot where he agrees to it?? Your criticism of Tiana was so uncharitable and based entirely on you being annoyed about Disney
He doesn't agree to it. He shakes Facilier's hand to be polite and his face indicates he doesn't know that's what the deal is. It's not like he signs a contract like Ariel or outright says yes like Hercules to Hades. It's done too vaguely
@@BetterWithBob In the song he lays out what he's offering to both of them and then says "shake my hand". You can tell sub-textually that these characters are considering this a "deal with the devil" so-to-speak if you pay attention to how they react, Lawrence eagerly and greedily grabbing his hand and Naveen being more nervous and cautious but still shaking it. I know the line in the song isnt "will you shake a poor sinners hand to make a deal with me that will have consequences ", but Musker and Clemens had more faith in their audience to recognize the overt symbolism in the scene. Also later in the movie Tiana says "you made a deal with the shadow man" and Naveen says "he was very charismatic" not "I didn't make a deal, I was politely shaking his hand and that was misinterpreted" Why you would see all that goes on before that point and assume Naveen is just shaking his hand to be polite is beyond me.
This is why it is so obvious to me that you are too Jaded by your annoyance of Disney to be able to critique this movie. Most of the stuff you laid out as "bad" is either you being entirely uncharitable to the writers for not laying out everything explicitly or just your opinion. This is going to be very long, but I hope you take the time to read it if you want to open your mind to a different understanding of the movie.
First you complained about Tiana not having a strong character arc essentially because she also gets a happily ever after. The message of Tiana's arc was not about choosing between love or hard work or even just a balance of the two, it's about how Tiana got so caught up in making this dream come true for both her and her dad that she forgot what the whole point of the dream was- spending time with people she loves. This is clearly shown at the start of the movie because the REAL point of the scene cooking with her dad is not just to show her bond with her dad before they kill him off, it's the whole neighborhood coming together at the end. Then, in contrast, at the start of Tiana's arc her friends are BEGGING to spend time with her but she won't cuz she needs to pay off her restaurant. Also I don't remember if it's explicitly said or just implied that Lottie would be willing to help give Tiana the money, but Tiana won't do it unless she works for it (not allowing her friends to help her) which is why Lottie hires her to make the beignets which finally earns enough money to get her restaurant, but she's stopped not because she didn't work hard enough, but because of basically sexism and racism. THEN she's offered the kiss with Naveen when she is at her lowest and DESPERATE. She does it because she has no other options, not a contradiction to her character. She even essentially SAYS she shouldn't have tried to find the easy way out after she's narratively punished by turning into a frog. She then goes through the whole story having two types of lessons- how to slow down and enjoy life a little and how to trust Naveen, Ray, Louie, and even Lottie at the end to ask her for help. I agree the ending is a bit clunky narratively and it's weird that Tiana has the showdown with the Shadow man when she never met him, but that doesn't mean that they didn't wrap up her arc. First, she's offered everything she could ever want - LITERALLY put back into the I want song sequence (which you also completely missed the point of) - and she doesn't care because now her dream has changed to include Naveen and THATS how she beats him. Then she gets her happy ending by just falling in love with Naveen. Their marriage is what turns them both human. Then she gets her other dream by having her friend, Louis, help her by threatening the racists which honestly for a black princess is a funny way to get her her dream. The thing is, her hard work had already earned her the restaurant at the start of the movie, but the reality is without friends and community she could never get her real dream. That's why them giving her the restaurant at the end isn't just giving it to her so she gets everything she wants, she earned it. The way you want the story is what? For the racists to win and she doesn't get the restaurant even though she has the money to pay for it?
Maybe it's because I wasn't aware of the ~discourse~ when I saw this movie for the first time, but I REALLY don't see how you've interpreted her as a critique of the Disney brand, especially compared to Moana who literally has lines like "I'm not a princess" and then Maui says his annoying line that I'm not going to bother to type out. Of course there's the scene where Tiana is grossed out by the fairy tale, but she still clearly also believes it shown by her wishing on a star both that night and still when she's adult. I don't interpret her as a critique of the Disney brand at all, instead the idea of what if you put someone jaded and bitter about Disney fairy tales into one (which is what you said the creators said so idk how you missed that) Honestly I don't think it even makes sense for it to be a critique of the princess brand because I'm pretty sure 2009 was before most of that criticism was popular. I could be wrong because I was only 10 when it came out, but I'm pretty sure that criticism didn't get popular until like 2012/2013 when buzzfeed was at its most popular.
Obviously the princess and the frog isn't a perfect movie. There is absolutely a discussion to be had with how race is dealt with. The animal thing is a frustrating trend for Disney and it's not lost on me that "Hey don't work so hard" is a weird message for the first black princess (although I think I laid out pretty clearly why I think it's more than that), but it feels like you're just using that, again, as a reason to hate the movie. I mean saying "Why'd they make the best character white?" Is crazy, like it's not racist of Disney that YOUR favorite character is the white one. I like Tiana as a character, it's solely your opinion that Lottie is better. Also somehow making it racist that they made Tiana... Smart and competent? And then comparing her to a child??? You realize it makes sense for them to contrast Lottie and Tiana's intelligence because Lottie grew up rich, white, and privileged and Tiana had to grow up quickly between racism, having to work her whole life, and losing her dad at a young age.
Clearly I could keep going, there's points you made I haven't even addressed (Like Naveen being racially ambiguous doesn't affect the quality of the movie at all and of course they'd make him from a fake country otherwise he'd be a real historical figure which would be... Bad???), but my point is the way you interpreted the movie was not what the creators intended. While you don't have to like the movie or even Tiana as a character, to act like your opinion is based on objective flaws with the movie when it's really just you being uncharitable is extremely frustrating. Maybe try to give the movie another watch without starting with the assumption that Tiana is part of this larger annoying BuzzFeed feminism trend and instead is just a character in her own right. Maybe you'll like it more. Or maybe you won't. You really don't have to like it, but your analysis here is just not what you think it is.
@@BetterWithBob one other thing I'll add quickly cuz I just thought of it and I'll kick myself if I don't.
Tiana has a stronger arc than Ariel because she actually has a want vs need arc (which is usually the fundamental way to build a character arc)
Tiana wants to get the restaurant solely through hard work and determination but she NEEDS to slow down and get help from her friends and community
Ariel wants to be on land and later to be with Prince Eric and then she gets it.
Now I still love Ariel as a character and I actually think it's fine she doesn't have an arc because the character in the story who has an arc is actually Triton, but I'm just further trying to show how if you want to interpret these characters poorly you can, but that doesn't make it the movies problem when it's just you missing stuff. It's like you're just doing the reverse of shitty BuzzFeed critiques that started from the point of assuming these characters are bad because Disney sexist. You assumed Tiana was bad because you assume Disney's overcompensating for bad faith critique
@@BetterWithBob actually, and I know I probably just seem like a crazy person responding 3 times about princess and the frog, having to respond to your criticism has made me appreciate princess and the frog so much more.
Like it's super cute that Naveen and Tiana's arcs are the reverse of each other and they meet in the middle to be happy. Naveen wants to just be rich and have everything handed to him, but he needs to find love and something he's passionate about and how to work hard for it. Tiana already has the love in her life and the hard work, but she needs to learn how to slow down and enjoy life. They balance each other out. That's why at the end you see them working on and in the restaurant together. There's actually so much narrative evidence I could point to, but I think I'll stop giving unsolicited film analysis. But suffice to say It's really cute actually. Damn I'm gonna go watch princess and the frog again
I offer a different perspective on Princess and the Frog: Tiana was doing just fine at the start. Her supposed character arc was about her learning to appreciate family and starting one of her own, but it's not like she actually needed to learn that. Her dad abandoned his dreams when he started a family, so Tiana decides to get her dream first and then start that family later. She loves her parents and isn't inherently against the idea, but she just keeps on getting pressured to find someone and start a family by her mom and the weird old lady I forgot the name of. Had Naveen not been supportive of Tiana's dreams, she probably wouldn't have fallen for him either. Basically, the movie was supposed to be about teaching the importance of family but taught it to the wrong person and ended up being a movie where a young black woman is pressured to give up on her dreams and independence for the sake of starting a family. It's 100% a writing issue, not a Tiana issue.
Fair enough
I think the message of the movie is more that it's okay to ask for help: Tiana could have asked the LaBoueffs any time for the money to buy the restaurant, and they would have almost certainly accepted a donation for such a close family friend, but she was too stubborn and wanted to make the required money all on her own, not seeing the hurdles that could come up along the way. And at the start, when her father tells her she needs hard work to make her dreams come true, he also says that she must never forget what's truly important. Being receptive to love could've made her dream come true a lot sooner, and in fact is what made it possible in the end, but early in the film she forgets, it is a failing of her's that she thinks she can do it all on her own without anyone else.
FINALLY! Someone else sees these lovely ladies for who they truly are!
Bring. These. Princess's. Back!!!!
agree with you for all princess defenses apart from tiana
To each their own 🙂
I had to pause when you said 'they would call all these movies 'woke' now' and...yeah...considering there was a 'woke chin' movement recently on twitter where apparently the likes of Aloy and Lara Croft have 'woke' chin designs, its ridiculous what people will say - especially when they don't know what the word means!
Also your bit on people relating to Tritan over Ariel....one of the reasons I loved Ariel as a kid (outside her character and a love for mermaids) is cos I related to her relationship to her father as I had a similar abusive one. Luckily for both of us, my father also got better and less abusive with age but it took a LOT longer to get there for him than it did for Tritan 😅
It sounds like we were very similar lol
Video title had me feeling some type of way before even watching the video. Black characters, women especially, receive an insane amount of criticism.
Alot of people hated Mel from Arcane, but not Silco, despite Silco being just as manipulative.
Ima watch the video with an open mind but was hella concerned walking in lol.
Fair enough. I do say that I don't think Tiana is a bad character. I just feel Disney were capable of better. Anika Noni Rose has a wonderful voice though
Great video and a a lot of truths which need saying, I think those whom reprimand characters like the early princesses for lacking personality might be quite emotionally immature. To remain 'kind' and 'sweet' despite what is thrown at the princesses is a strength not a weakness, far easier to be bitter and consumed with jealousy/wrath/hatred and only care about themselves.
Love, love, love your take on Belle! She is my favorite princess and I just fell in love with her character even more! The library and her being a book worm is just a perk for me :D
Thank heavens there are still sane people. Fantastic video!
What I don't understand is why they seemingly stopped faithfully adapting the fairytales. Yes, Disney added a thick layer of sugar to their interpretations, but for the most part, the core of stories like Snow White, Cinderella, and Sleeping Beauty remained intact. In contrast, 'The Princess and the Frog' could have been called 'Tiana' because it has absolutely zero to do with the original tale apart from a prince transforming into a frog. I'm not saying it's a bad movie; it's just a bad adaptation. The same goes for 'Tangled.' It's not a bad film, just not what I’m personally looking for in an adaptation of Rapunzel.
There are two complaints that really boil my blood. First, when people criticize Cinderella by saying, "Oh, don't wait around to be saved by a man, save yourself!" Even though if you paid any attention, you'd know that her mouse friends are the ones who save her, and the prince is just someone she meets on her journey to freedom, not the center of her world.
Second, people argue that Sleeping Beauty is sexist because a man fights his way to the top of the tower, kisses the princess, and awakens her. But these critics overlook that without the three fairies saving him and gifting him his sword and shield, Prince Philip wouldn’t have been able to do anything! It's thanks to three WOMEN! that Philip is able to defeat Maleficent in the first place!
Well, Snow White wasn't exactly faithful either. Snow White was supposed to have a piece of apple stuck in her mouth and asleep, seven years old, and tricked not once, not twice but thrice because of a comb and waistband.
@@jeffreygao3956 I'm aware, that's why I said ''for the most part'' obviously every adaption has their little divergences, but what I care about is the overall picture, Disney was good at filling in the blank spots of these stories, like character's names who don't exist in the original texts. Try explaining to a Disney fan that the Little Mermaid doesn't have a name. Or that it's never specified that Belle has a yellow dress, or Cinderella a blue one. They are original interpretations built closely on the original framework.
@@Cynic-Retired Hah! It's silver not blue! But I did try and got blanks every single time.
I believe The Princess & the Frog was adapted more from a book called The Frog Princess by ED Baker. Loosely but still
@@BetterWithBob Explains the setting in the aftermath of World War I.
Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty's hate gets me the most. There's so many problems.
1. Cinderella was an abuse victim and it's insidious that these women demonize her.
2. It's ironic that to be a worthy woman according to fringe feminists, you have to be more like a man, but they whine about how evil princesses and dolls are.
3. It's okay to be girly, and strength isn't only violence. In fact I find it weird that they're encouraging you to be violent to prove you're strong.
4. Cinderella isn't a damsel in distres. The term damsel in distress gets misused so much. The damsel in distress is supposed to be in danger. Not being bossed around or under a spell. Cinderella's life wasn't in any jeopardy until the third movie. Prior to that she was safe. Her stepfamily never actually did anything dangerous.
5. There are many other Disney movies with ACTUAL damsels in distress, yet people don't complain about them. Hell, most of the official princesses that came in the 90s and 2000s are way more damselly than the original three, where the new modern princesses get in actual danger (hell, Mulan is literally damselling herself by going to war and if she wasn't good at her soldier job she wouldn't last a second).
These reddit posts sum it up perfectly, as well as the stupidity of calling a girl who does chores a "housewife" as well.
Oh, as for Aurora. THANKS for mentioning Phillip was in need of rescuing.
Aurora wasn't even a damsel for that long. She was in danger for 2 minutes. 2 MINUTES. The fairie made the spell NOT DEATHY, so she was actually FINE the whole time not in danger and thus not a damsel. Spells aren't damselling. And to add the Phil needing rescuing, let me go deeper into every time Phil needs help:
1. Phil gets lured into a trap and taken to Maleficen't castle.
2. Maleficent plans on leaving Phil in the dungeon forever to die slowly, she probably also tortured him.
3. Phil has trouble fighting Mal's guards despite the sword and shield. The fairies have to help him as he's outnumbered.
4. The guards try to shoot and drown him. The fairies need to save him by turning the weapons into nice things.
5. Mal keeps trying to bring him down by destroying buildings and bridges. The fairies save him from falling.
6. Phil needs help getting through the thorns.
7. Who slays the dragon? NOT PHIL. Phil keeps swinging at Mal but he misses. She finally overpowers him and the FAIRIES kill her. THE FAIRIES give the final blow. Phil is literally bent over, weakened.
So, in Sleeping Beauty, I think the feminist purposefully forget who the damsel is. It's the MAN.
P.S. Both Walt and Cinderella's VOICE ACTRESS said she was strong, not for being violent, but for her patience and looking on the bright side, and how she DID actually clap back at her stepfamily, and she didn't care about the prince at all initially.
Here's some reddit stuff I wrote that goes deeper into this stuff:
The damsels people never talk about:
www.reddit.com/r/disneyprincess/comments/1d31cvo/damsels/
"She needs saving, she cleans and cooks! Oh how evil, housewife and damsel":
www.reddit.com/r/disneyprincess/comments/1drtyyu/comment/lb48l7u/?context=3
I love all these ladies tho
12:43
My main argument when people say Aurora has not personallity is saying : She has a ton, just look at her body language . The animators back them ( i want to say contrary to how some of the new princesses were animated ) putted a lot of emphasis on her body movements and hand movements and face expressions. Yes , she doesn't talk that much in the movie but the times she's the focus you can SEE her personality just by walking and dancing.
Aurora is and was always my favorite.
And very appropriate too, since they take a lot from the Tchaikovsky ballet, and that's all about using your body to tell a story and convey personality.
The animators of the Renaissance princesses were definitely on deadline crunches. Sleeping Beauty was in production for eight years, so they had plenty of time to get her movements down. And in general, the studio under Walt would methodically work on each film and only release it when it was ready, but under Roy Disney, they decided to have one released every year.
Beauty & the Beast was even completely overhauled about six months into its production and they had to start from scratch. It was a similar story to the nightmare of the Cats movie - no vacation time, an impatient higher up, artist having to just buy new clothes because they didn't have time to go home and do laundry.
Pocahontas was in production for five years, since they were hoping that would get an Oscar nomination, so that's why there's lots of range in her movements. That also had majority veteran animators working on it, since it was considered the more prestigious film, and The Lion King was more experimental, with up and coming talent working on it.
Love how people get so heated over movies meant for CHILDREN. What's more, these fairytales existed LONG before Disney and the films are generally a more light-hearted depiction of their original counterparts. While it's easy to see some of these girls' problems, I think with every situation they handled it the best they could, and in turn having someone help them is nothing to be ashamed of.
Dude you hit the nail on the head and all the way through to the other side of the _Earth._ Absolutely brilliant, and you voiced my own opinions in far more detail and eloquence than Ive ever managed 😅
A like for you, good sir!
I also love how Belle begins lost in childhood fantasy of what her book presents the 'Beauty and the Beast' to be, and skips straight to the reveal in chapter 3... and then she lives through the reality of the situation before the happy ending.
She moves from a childlike girl who gives her life for her father but then runs away at the first sign of conflict... to a woman who rides back into danger to find the man she loves.
She doesn't find a man and try to "fix" him - she encounters a man who wants to break free of his mistakes and, when he shows her his inner self, she encourages him to bring it out. He does it. He changes himself because she gives him a reason to hope for something better.
The song 'A Change in Me' they added in the Broadway version is perfect to explain it :
"No change of heart, a change in me."
They both transform from the inside out. It's a beautiful story about how that right person in life can change you both for the better. It might not be an easy path, but it's all the better because it runs deep.
She had some growing up to do, and i love her for it. Because i used to be that odd loner girl lost in childhood fantasy and I walked a similar path.
And found my assertiveness - and a man who loved me for speaking my mind - along the way.
I think the Pocahontas movie and character would’ve been much better if she was an original character and not based on a real figure in history.
Now I need the Atlantis video.
Oh lord one day lol
I agree that people can take the “girlboss” or “she needs no man” sentiments to the extreme, attacking characters that aren’t really part of a problematic relationship. I think it’s important to have evidence from the actual thing to back up such inflammatory claims.
A good example of a female character that, to me, was forcefully paired with a partner just because is Ember from Pixar’s Elemental. I think her character arc would’ve been more impactful if she either stayed single after her fight with Wade or at the very least found a better partner afterwards. It wouldn’t even ruin the movie’s overall message in my opinion, because you can still learn and grow from someone who isn’t in your life anymore. There’s so many “fem character stays with the first man she likes” stories out there, so Ember breaking it off with Wade wouldn’t just be subversive, but realistic.
The reason I’m so hard on Wade as a character and think Ember could do better is due to the fact that he never really acknowledged her grievances towards him. He gets irrationally butt hurt by her choosing her family over him. Sure, her family isn’t perfect and do impose certain things like wanting her to continue the family business and eventually find a lover, but Wade was being rather entitled and ignorant of her situation in that scene. Previous scenes showcased that Ember is willing to hear out criticism of her family’s dynamic, so it’s not just that she was defending her family for the sake of it. Her blowing up over him egging her on about leaving them to pursue her dream job was valid in my opinion. It’s not easy for a poc to just drop everything and go somewhere after all, it can be rather expensive and mentally taxing worrying how the family’s holding up without you. The only good thing Wade ever did was verbally support Ember and her dreams, something even her own family doesn’t do. That’s the thing though, just because a person is nice and is supportive doesn’t mean they’re entitled to a relationship, which again, is a big flaw for someone like Wade.
As a poc myself, it’s just frustrating seeing love stories in media where the privileged individual learns nothing but still gets rewarded with someone who actually did grow. Kinda promotes a weird precedent of tolerating a partner’s micro aggressions as long as they helped you somehow.
Oh that's a fascinating analysis. I've seen and experienced many a relationship - even platonic ones - where someone being helpful or doing X good thing is treated as some kind of bill that has to be repaid, even when they've also done terrible things. I knew one gal who gave umpteen chances to a really horrible, abusive guy because "he did X for me" and it was heartbreaking to see.
Liana (the lady who said the princesses would be called woke today) has said elsewhere in her content that there are a lot of current or modern behaviours in love interest that are far more red flaggy or just accepted as normal - like Star Lord in Guardians of the Galaxy outright forgetting he had a one night stand (or the space variation) on his ship, and him intended as a sympathetic protagonist. 'Womaniser' is treated as an acceptable character flaw in male characters that they can abandon when they meet the 'right' woman, when that's rarely how it happens in real life and seems to be perpetuating the "I can change him" messaging that's actually dangerous to young girls.
What annoys me about the lazy criticism the most, is how it drowns out the legitimate reasons to call out problematic elements, such as:
-the disney universe is strictly heteronormative
-poc Disney characters are way more sexualized than the white ones
-Pocahontas takes a real story, presents it as inspired by a real story, but twists everything to get to a "both sides equally bad" narrative
-the marketing is enourmous...
But other than that...they are usually good ppl and the stories are nice..
And a big problem is that the marketing is not done by the same creative team as the movies. Like Brave's original director was disgusted at how the dolls of Merida changed her figure, made her girlier etc. And the indigenous cast members of Pocahontas had good words for the sensitivity of the movie's creative team but were disgusted by the marketing and the tie-in merchandise. Mary Costa also disowned the Enchanted Tales segment featuring Aurora
@@BetterWithBob Hence why if one makes entertainment of Native America, give the relevant nations royalties!
"Whatever princess we get next, she better be a good one." Fast forward to wish, Rest In Piece Asha, you deserved so much more respect than you were given lmaoo
I haven't seen Wish myself, but Asha appears to be polarising from what I've read. Shame because Ariana DeBose in a Disney film....
they didn’t even have the guts to make her a princess
Tbh, Sleeping Beauty is one of my faves! It’s a treat to the eyes and ears, and as simple as it seems on the surface, it’s astoundingly ahead of the curve of even some of today’s films. The 3 fairies are the true protagonists of the story, we follow them for the majority of the narrative, and Aurora is moreso a deuteragonist along with Prince Philip. 3 older women with diverse body types and obvious signs of age being the protagonists? Their maternal nature being just a facet of their characters rather than the entire picture? So many films would *never* now a days. And none of that disparages Aurora or Philip either, they’re both so playful and charming for the time we get to spend with them. They kind of subvert the ‘destined for one another’ concept too by being betrothed but only falling in love when they meet in the woods not *knowing* that they are promised to one another through the monarchy for the sake of a shaky alliance. It really helps convince the viewer that it is, in fact, a /true/ bond that they developed
Defending all of them expect the black one is nasty work
you realize a lot of black ppl have criticized parts of the movie, and he put a link to a video explaining Tiana's controversies BECAUSE he knows as a white Brit he couldn't have the final say.
Something Walt himself once said about his Snow and Cinderella:
"Snow White was a kind simple little girl who believed in wishing and waiting for her prince charming to come along. On the other hand Cinderella here was more practical. She believed in dreams all right but she also believed in doing something about them. When the prince charming didn't happen to come along, she went right over to the palace and got him."
While Snow White remains happy settling into a simple life with the dwarves, doing what she can to survive her stepmother, she still holds out hope that the person she initially made a love connection with will reunite with her.
Cinderella catches breaks with making friends with the mice and other animals whenever she can, steps up when she sees a chance at a real breather at the ball, and when she finds out the person she made a connection with wants to see her again, she decides to undertake the test that'll get her to him.
Tiana doesn't need defence
Wasn’t Pocahontas sexualized by Disney with the way that they portrayed her, though? I remember reading/hearing that criticism not too long ago.
The dress itself is very inaccurate and Kocoum's voice actor criticised it for being too short, and Jeffrey Katzenberg did say that she had to be "sexy". But in the film itself, I don't see any overtly sexual framing or presentation. She seems to be presented more as 'pretty' rather than sexy. Heroines showing more skin was a thing in the 90s and 2000s - Ariel, Jasmine, Esmeralda, Meg, Kida, Pocahontas - because around that time baring the midriff, going braless, one shoulder strap, wearing a bikini top, was shorthand for 'independent woman you don't dare mess with'. Jane at the end of Tarzan swaps her stuffy Victorian dress for something skimpier to show this. I do wish they'd given Pocahontas a more accurate costume though - the sequel at least gives her one.
@@BetterWithBob yeah I think ppl say she was sexualized bc she was based on/a representation of a real person in history who was a 12 year old girl
And to further add fuel to bad-faith criticism and pop feminism regarding Ariel being bullshit, it also turns a blind eye to the queer themes to the movie and original fairy tale that's gaining resurgence and relevance. Hans Christian Andersen, author of The Little Mermaid, was posthumously believed to be bisexual (with many essays and letters written by him that revealed he had liaisons with women AND men to support this) and it's believed he wrote the story as an allegorical love letter to his crush Edvard Collin. And if you look closely, you can see the coding: the Mermaid is caught between two worlds of sea and land (Andersen's preference for women and men), the Mermaid gives up her voice to be with the Prince (Andersen cannot speak his love for Collin), and the Prince chooses the conventional partner in the Princess instead of the Mermaid (Collin marries a woman, leaving Andersen heartbroken). With the Disney film, Howard Ashman, an openly gay man and later victim of the AIDS crisis, was hired as story and songwriter and producer, and probably noticed the parallels Ariel's story had to his own life or his friends given Ariel is attracted to someone outside the conventions of her culture and society and was willing to sacrifice her life and safety at the chance of obtaining that love. And though it ends with a heterosexual wedding, you could argue that the ending of Disney's Little Mermaid championed gay marriage 26 years before it became legal in the United States since queer-coded Ariel gets her happy ending of marrying the person she loves with the outmost acceptance of her family, with Triton even conjuring a rainbow to complete the scene.
Other positive attributes about Ariel is that there are theories that she's neurodivergent or on the autism spectrum since she has niche, special interests that baffle others; seems to have more friends in animals than people, and when she's on land often finds herself performing many social faux pas that many ASD people can resonate with. Jodi Benson, Ariel's voice actress, has even said she gets fan-mail from autistic children who said they relate to Ariel's struggles with expressing herself, as if their own voices had been taken.
Yes indeed. I actually did a video on Ariel's autism parallels two years ago :)
ruclips.net/video/Utp7RTRUbnY/видео.html&ab_channel=BetterWithBob%3F
In that case, retell The Little Mermaid but have Eric become Erika!
@@jeffreygao3956 Or following the school of thought from Cartman Kennedy: "PUT A CHICK IN IT AND MAKE HER GAY!"
THIS. This video is great, and I needed it.
The only reason I don’t like watching the movie Pocahontas is because they used a real indigenous person who was wronged by white colonists and forced to marry one of them. I know I’m not Native American/ indigenous, but knowing what actually happened to her makes the film unsettling. This movie is a white washed romanticized version of the actual story. However, it is not my place to say if Pocahontas is a good representation of her race or not. It seems like some of their people like her so I will appreciate the movie for that. I just hope that Disney decides to give Native Americans/ indigenous people more of a variety stories to choose from and not try to edit parts of history so white people feel more comfortable.
Your takes are so well thought and funny! And your editing is top tier as well. The final moments where you include that “how dare you defy me” from Frollo 😂 Just so good. Thank you for sharing and brightening our days with your opinions and your work.
People don't remember how fast and all consuming are teenage loves. Teenagers feel with an intensity anyone with fully developed frontal lobes can hardly remember. They may not make wise decisions but invalidating their experience won't make them smarter
Sleeping Beauty is just the absolute best. ❤ Aurora is an incredible character and the fairies are my favorite. And the music. Also really love Cinderella. Disney has a lot of amazing Princesses but none as good as the original 3.
I always thought Rachel Zeigler’s now infamous comments were what she was trained to say by Disney PR…and from the D Files, it’s scary how much the criticisms have really impacted Disney for the worse. Thanks for your essay, and my favorite is Ariel with Belle very close behind! 🙂
I was surprised at the vitriol she got (well unfortunately not really). Pretty much everyone on the internet has been mocking Snow White for years, and she's the princess least likely to get defended, so it's not like she said anything that hasn't already been said by multiple people over the years. How many times has this film been reshot and pushed back now?
@@BetterWithBob it's surprising when the same Disney made 'Enchanted' that basically made fun of the Disney Princesses criticisms with much better result than the recent live-action remakes
@@TheHalloweenSpirit Possibly because it was an original story that was a lot more affectionate, and presented Giselle as someone who could also inspire growth while going through it herself. It came out 2007 I believe? That was when the Renaissance was a distant memory, and Disney had stopped doing animated films, whereas the live action remakes came out alongside big hits like Frozen, Tangled, Moana etc. I remember Lindsay Ellis saying that Enchanted was interesting for offering up the lesson about finding a balance between dreaming and reality - with "That's How You Know" being all about how a relationship needs those solid foundations that aren't often found in fairy tales but also those big romantic moments letting the other person know their value. I could do a whole dissertation on Enchanted lol
@@BetterWithBob please do a whole video on Enchanted!!! it’s my absolute favorite Disney movie and the way it’s the perfect subversion of their classic formula while still being a love letter to the classic ladies is what makes it so good! not to mention, the amazing way Giselle’s character arc is told through her outfits and even her movements! it’s like a modern spin on snow white (since Giselle ends up having the same evil queen one sided beef happen to her as well) and it’s just overall a wonderful time that would be a great topic for analysis!
About Cinderella: I disagree that Lady Tremaine’s backstory being explained in the live action movie improves her character. Her motivations are already clear and easy to understand in the original. She’s a single woman with two daughters in a male dominated society. She wants her daughters to attain positions of high status, She came into her current wealth and status through marriage to a man who was not father to her daughters, so she treats Cinderella like a servant and keeps her under her thumb to make sure the rightful heir does not threaten her or her daughters’ positions. It doesn’t matter whether she loved her previous husband or even if she loved Cinderella’s father because her actions and motivations are still the same. Plus the confrontation they have ruins the rescue scene in the live action. Instead of Cinderella being initially heartbroken after being locked in the attic, then determined to free herself once she realizes the mice and birds are trying to help her, and clever enough to have the second slipper with her, live action Cinderella just dances around and sings like she doesn’t have a care in the world and is only discovered because the people outside hear her singing through the window the mice opened. The window was unlocked and probably big enough to climb out of she really wanted too. Live action Cinderella does nothing to earn her freedom at the end while original Cinderella does just as much to get herself out of that situation(calling Bruno, bringing the slipper with her) as the mice.
About Beauty and the Beast: I think you need to reword part of your argument. It’s not true that everyone will do abusive things. Abuse carries a meaning of particularly cruel or violent treatment. Lashing out when you feel hurt or vulnerable, or even having issues controlling your temper is not the same as going out of your way to inflict as much pain as possible on someone for any perceived slights, or isolating them from their support system to make them easier to control. Calling any hurtful behavior abuse downplays the severity of actual abuse. It would be more correct to say we all do things that hurt others but that doesn’t make us bad people, especially since a large chunk of your defense of Belle is that she’s NOT an abuse victim.
Cinderella, has always been my favorite Disney Princess and role model. She always remained kind and loving to everyone. She knew of her situation, if she talked back or defied them she would be abused even more. She still had dreams of being in a better situation with people she loved. A lot of people would've given up easily and become just as bitter if not worse than her stepfamily. People tend to forget that she lost her mother and father and that she was abused and forced to become a servant. I somewhat blame Keira Knightley for making a lot of people believe Cinderella just got rescued and waited for a prince.
Really? What did Keira Knightley say?
@@BetterWithBob she quoted "waits around for a rich man."
When the Prince meets Snow White, she's in ragged clothes, he probably doesn't even know that she's a princess. This Prince, royalty, is attracted to a girl who he believes to be a servant. Let that sink in.
Ooh very good take
Thank you so much for your content & creativity. From your charmed content, movie reviews & Disney coverage… I’m so thankful for you. It might not make sense, but your takes and connection to the material reignites memories of my childhood that help me be more grateful for the positive experiences of my past. So many things were hard for me as a child, but Disney made it better. 92 baby! You reminding me of that makes me thankful and grateful. Thank you🫶🏽
Your comment made me smile 😊 very much appreciated 😊
Not even a second into the video and the Like Bar was rainbow. At least its on brand with the video topic.
Tiana is an amazing character which I absolutely LOVE but I’ll admit it, today, as a hardworker, I still don’t know what the moral of the story is