@@asherroodcreel640 Care to elaborate? Not asking in a "prove it" kind of way, rather I'm interested in the writing process, particularly in the context of video games!
I would even say it's easier to argue the statue isn't sitting on Archtree branches, but just on branches and wood. A pyre, to signify the woman and/or her baby are meant to be burned.
Why not a pyre made of archtree branches? Could be a double meaning that the mother and child need to be burnt for the world to continue on the way it is but eventually, like all things, this tree will wither and fade into darkness and linking the fire will only be possible so many times before this tree becomes ash
The first connection I made was that the statue is on top on the same kind of wood pyre like the lord vessel is placed. One could say the woman is a vessel for the child before it's born. If so, the child would be the fire of the vessel. We could overthink it and relate it to the witch of izolith that created the flame that gave birth to demons and that the pigmy used.
Explanation is heavily flawed. Mother of the player (Chosen One) is never depicted in the game, and there is no proof she is important or even remarkable like Virgin Mary. While player is some kind of Messianic figure (sacrifices himself for the world, just like Jesus) , his mother is simply not relevant.
The chosen undead was resurrected at the end if DS3 thru the soul of cinder at the literal end of times, so that variation of the prophecy did come true eventually which is kinda neat.
Another thing about the cut content you mention is that the person who pushes the Firelink statue aside to access the kiln is the blacksmith Andre. Andre of Astora.
I've got to say, you've become my favorite and objectively best game lore youtuber ever. You don't just take the item descriptions and make vague theories about the lore that leave people more confused than before watching the video. You actually do your research and basically reverse-engineer how the devs crafted the lore of the game via its environment and artistic direction. This makes the lore much more tangible and logical. Thank you!
He lies about Christianity in key points. He says that early Christians had to "reconcile the fact that the Messiah was dead" with his coming again. Christ rose from the dead. He defeated death. That is the entire point of Christianity. That is why the first Christians were willing to be martyred and die. It wasn't fabricated later as Tarnished Archaeologist would have you believe. He is a malicious gnostic.
I think you're correct about the statues representation, and also I think that we recreate the scene with Gwynevere. She's essentially the mother in the portrayal, with her size making us seem almost as her child. It makes the illusory truth of it even more scathing when you look at it that way
It's especially fun to analyze these things WITHOUT the context of later games. Remember, when Dark Souls came out, Miyazaki didn't intend for sequels. It was supposed to be its own self-contained story. For example, people who discuss which ending is better like to bring up how Linking the Fire is (supposedly) better because the story of the future games ostensibly depends on you, the player character, Linking the Fire - though this seems to insist that nobody else, such as Solaire, could have done so, it is much more annoying to me that the Dark Lord ending is not dismissed out of some more concrete argument but through, basically, pure convenience. The story would be simpler if you Linked the Fire ergo it is better to do so. Well, that's beside the point.
It always seemed more like the statues were referring to Velka, to me, since so much of the imagery leads to the painted world. I can see the chosen undead, although it's unusual that a prophecy about the chosen undead would have so much focus on a fictional woman, mother to a fictional child. With Mary, it's at least predicated on existing, defined characters. One could jump a few hoops to rationalize why images of motherhood would be a core image for undead, but I doubt it would be that deep in development. I'd sooner accept that they just wanted generic church icons and it had no purpose until late in development, if at all.
There's something really sad about the chosen undead child being depicted with sword in hand. Still swaddled yet already destined to fight and struggle
It is a little at odds with it's Christian influenced iconography as depicting someone holding a sword in Christian art is a reference to their means of martyrdom, execution by being beheaded with a sword. An example of this is the portraits of St. Paul which almost always depict him holding a sword.
Yes and what is it with the absence of Ships in Elden Ring? You only see a couple and it's obvious they are a thing but there are no docks no ports or anything. Also the Rusty Anchor item description is so SUS.
@@misterio3678 Yeah, there are definitely important questions here, even on a basic metaphysical level. If "The Lands Between" are, indeed, between life and death (or planes of existence, generally), then what does "leaving" on a "ship" even imply, or look like?
The name Numen is almost certainly a reference to Numenor, a city inspired by Atlantis in the Tolkein mythos. Great seafarers and technologically advanced (like basically steampunk), ancestors of a lot of modern humans in "modern day" Middle Earth, etc. Would be one hell of a coincidence if the name Numen isn't a Tolkein reference.
It really fills me with dismay we’ll never get more answers about the primordial serpents. The serpent statues in Dark Souls 3 were the only mention of them as the story went on. Imo they were the most interesting characters in the Dark Souls franchise
Imo it's an allegory for Satan and Jesus. To each their own for which is which. Further explanation would only lessen the myth. You are the sheep, they are the shepherds. The origin is unnecessary.
I adore this channel. The parallels you draw between in-game and real-life architecture, iconography, and archeology is incredibly interesting. You really make learning about ancient civilisations so fascinating, something which I admire. Bravo, sir! Long may the sun shine!
I’ve always wondered why there were animals depicted at the altar in the undead parish and now in hindsight it seems so obvious 😂 Great work as always, TA!
two things: 1) i am obsessed with this channel it is amazing 2) you drastically overestimate my ability to understand what is right in front of my face - my mind was getting blown every step of the way! so excited for part 2
I'm so glad you guys decided to touch the topic of dark souls! Although there have already been a lot of theorists who tried to decipher the trillogy, I feel like a lot of these theories are based more on speculation rather than facts, especially regarding the first game. I would love to see your take on the serpents!
I’m not sure common culture knew undead would be a thing till they literally became a thing. Barring hidden lore that they existed in the war or the dragons
The Virgin Mary was worshipped so much because she also was the embodiment of some Roman/Greek deities, Juno being one of the most obvious ones, much of the Greek myths are also infused in this game too
I've been obsessed with these games for close to a decade now and you still manage to consistently blow my mind. You spend as long as you want on that statue 👍
DS2 implies that countless kingdoms rise and fall on the same spot, and continue to do so after DS2. I think DS1 and DS3 are so distant in time that it makes sense that even what is supposed to be the same locations would no longer have any resemblance to one another. This is part of the reason why all the callbacks to DS1 feel out of place to me, though perhaps that can be explained by how the fading of the flame manipulates space and time to bring people and placed toward the fading flame. Fire brings disparity, past and future, near and far, and as the fire fades so too does that disparity, causing time and distance to lose meaning.
I understand that, I meant about the people who built the temples around it, the designs of the area itself and if his theoretical purposes of the original structures.
Very interesting how the 'undead religion' reflects Nietzsche's idea of 'slave morality' serving a purpose to keep certain figures in power and values in favor. Of course, Nietzsche is all over Dark Souls (with it also being inspired by Berserk and all), but it's cool to be reminded of this once in a while. Another thing about Nietzsche that I noticed while watching this video: the two endings reflect the two clashing ideals in Nietzsche's narrative. The 'good' ending of linking the fire reflects the Judeo-Christian notion of 'godly salvation' (as well as being a 'slave morality' used to, as I stated earlier, keep certain ideals in power), whilst the rebellious 'bad' ending embraces the human, earthly notions of what Dark represents in DS, bringing about an age of 'stained humanity'. This second ideal aligns with Nietzsche's ideal of embracing the earthly human body instead of transcendental notions, whether of afterlife or of the purity of the soul. The linking of fire ending also serves to preserve the 'status quo' of known 'welfare' , whereas the age of dark brings about a scary and unknown future, but one full of possibilites. This, again, reflects the dichotomy of clashing ideals in Nietzsche's narrative.
Let's not forget that in Elden Ring, the ending seen by most people as the canon ending has Ranni, a character who recites Nietzschean poetry, kill a prophet of God.
I disagree that the child statue is the chosen undead and not NK. You didn't mention the Darkmoon Seance Ring - which links the Goddess to Gwyndolin (Gwyn's other son). Perhaps, the Undead took it upon themselves to vandalise his statue because he abdicated his Lordship and refused to succeed Gwyn - either as an agent of Dark or Fire. The hollows at the altar weep in despair, like those of New Londo.
Well, color me impressed. You dismantled the entire Firstborn theory; bravo! I cannot wait to see more!( hope you do Oolacile someday) That said, I do have a few notes: 1. The other statues in the Parish are what confuses me; the women holding the staff torches. To me, they seem a clear cut depiction of the Fire Witches of Izalith, albeit in a different iconagraphic style than Izalith, in their aspect as goddesses of war(note the helmets). The only question I have is; if so, why are they here?! 2. I do not believe Frampt is lying to us in any way for a simple reason; the existence of what is called a "Lord Of Cinder". "So I will'd myself Lord, to link the fire, to paint a new vision. What is thine intent?" A Lord Of Cinder is capable of reshaping the world; as a matter of fact, that is their whole purpose. Every year of those thousand years between us and Gwyn was bought by him sustaining it that entire time. Same with us and the Bearer Of The Curse,and so on and so forth. In exchange for their seemingly endless pain and sustaining of reality, the Lords Of Cinder hold a tenure as the "God" of this world; the will behind the Flame. I actually have a wider theory in the making about it(including why the Black Knights appear where they do), but in short, Frampt is not lying. Nor is false Gwynevere, even. "A grave and arduous test of mettle, yea, it shall be." "Inherit the Fire of our world" We inherit the Fire; we become Lord Of Cinder for an age. For an age, we are " God"; for ages after that, every person worth mentioning in history tried to emulate us, follow in our footsteps. We have proven mortals can become gods; the price is merely agony incarnate. Speaking of which, the Catacombs statue can be easily explained in this sense; considering what happened in Dark Souls 3, we know Lords Of Cinder can be summoned back to life at a dire enough occasion. In other words, the Undead may have believed our Chosen Undead would return at their darkest hour, summoned as a Lord Of Cinder, even after making the greatest sacrifice. For all we know, it may have even happened at some point!(my guess is between 2 and 3) 3. I really like your focus on New Londo in the end; nobody talks enough about the place. That said, I also believe people underestimate the importance of the Four Kings; it goes to the point I believe the prophecy was once notably different. Why? Well, for starters, the statues make no reference to pilgrimage, and the Undead Asylum is unlikely to be as old as the Shrine. The Shrine itself is directly linked to New Londo; a city of Undead. There's no need for much pilgrimage if your Shrine is an elevator away. "Lord Gwyn recognized the foresight of these four great leaders of New Londo, and granted them their ranks and the fragments of a great soul." The Four Kings were all Undead; now, remind me,how many statues with a baby holding a sword and a woman with a crown are there? Doesn't their sharing of the Shard remind you of the Farron Legion's way of thinking? Sharing the soul of a greater being amongst themselves? We all know what happened later, of course; still, a thousand years ago, it must've seemed like a foolproof plan. Loyal heirs to Gwyn,and a full city of Undead to pull from. Pity it all went to ### when they fell to Dark and Lloyd took the helm. "Talisman utilized by Allfather Lloyd's cleric knights to hunt down the Undead. Blocks Estus recovery within a limited area. In the outside world, the Undead are accursed creatures, and Lloyd's cleric knights are widely praised for their Undead hunts." As such, Frampt and Gwyndolin needed to..tweak a few things. Likely in the last few hundred years, since the emergence of the Abyss that consumed their former candidates.
Found this channel recently. Brother, no channel has captivated my attention like this before its effectively removed the brain rot 5 second attention span I developed from til tok. Your stuff is awesome dude. I hope you keep making it.
Dark Souls 1 and to an extent the architecture of the original Demon's Souls are honestly much more Byzantine than Medieval, even sort of overtly Roman in places such as the statues outside Orensein and Smough's arena. It might be argued that it comes as a result of processing power (and budget) allowing for more fleshed-out worldspaces, but I rather dislike the medieval-ifying that the DeS remake did, and the later games kinda stray from the boxier Roman architecture as well. The latter is understandable as, well, the ages progress, but overall I think the most interesting physical worlds are found in DaS1, DeS, and of course the hyper-realized Victorian Prague/London of Bloodborne
Definitely, and not just architecture. Lordran (at least the Burg and church) is definitely pretty Mediterranean in inspiration and enemy design. Both Balder and Berenike knights present there evoke a kind of roman legion aesthetic through the lens of medieval knights. Berenike helmets and shields, Balder segmented armor pieces.
Even though I already know the mayority of this, I really appreciate these videos. Because when I replay these games nowadays I do it for the mechanics and character creation possibilities, and I just run through the levels all the time. So it's thanks to this content that I can still enjoy the narrative aspect of From's works. Thank you ❤
Love the backdoor teaser, love the small portions of humor, and the fact that you stick to your "Tarnished Archeologist" catchphrases. Oh yes and the talk about statues and stuff is cool too. Statues are great.
Fromsoft must watch these videos and laugh so hard. Oh yeah bro that's the virgin mary it has deep lore connections! Just like the Apple in Death Note and all the crosses in EVA. Yeah we just are super into the bible and it's informing every iota of the plot, we definitely didn't use it because it looks cool!
Great vid! BTW, with dark souls remasteres you can spot many secrets along the chosen undead's path. My favourite one is how see little humanities sprouting out of the Great Tree. You can also track these humanity sprites all the way down to the Bed of Chaos
this didn't feel like it needed to be 25 minutes long but I like the main idea that the statues reflect the "religion of the Undead" which is to eventually produce the Chosen Undead
The video didn't even need to exist at all, because DS1 was never actually finished, it was not properly translated from Japanese, and the core identity had to be changed from Dark Ring to Dark Souls because of copyright issues.
so happy you're doing dark souls lore now too!! the perspectives you put on things and the way you point out stuff that i've literally never noticed in hours and hours of playing these games blows my mind every single time. i really hope you do some stuff centred on ds3 in the future as well, i played it for the first time recently and thought the lore and design details were so magical and immersive (especially with the nods to the previous games and how the world had changed since their time)! i kept thinking of this channel the whole time i played it and as soon as i was done i went and scoured your channel to see if you had anything on it 😭i'm so normal about these games
Religious indoctrination by a cult of personality at its rawest. Chilling how well Miyazaki and the team captured the insidiousness of Gwyn's plan with the Undead in the environmental storytelling.
20 plus minutes of this just doesn't seem like enough. Just as I'm settling in for a super deep dive of this stuff, I have to wait for the next video. Amazing stuff as always TA. I've literally binge watched all your videos in like a week.
I think it is explained in the game that Gwyn helped set up this religion, basically creating a path for humanity to continually subjugate itself to prop up the Lords' continued rule.
I wish you would be more careful about forming a narrative. From the very start of the video your conclusions are drawn from a questionable foundation - That the Firelink Shrine and Undead Burg are inhabited by the Undead. The inhabitants are Undead NOW, but that doesn't mean they were Undead at the time all this iconography was constructed. You also don't provide any reasoning for why the same statue is located in the Catacombs, despite that being far removed from anything else.
I'd argue that Firelink Shrine and the Undead Perish were constructed following the first linking. The shrine was built to commemorate the first linking, and the perish was built for worship of the chosen undead prophecy. It all serves Gwyn's goal of tricking the undead into feeding their humanity to the first flame. It is a religion he deliberately constructed to keep the age of fire going. Considering that the advent of the undead curse would have caused a lot of upheaval and dread among the human population, they were probably desperate to find some kind of meaning in their newly found undeath.
This reminds me of the religious undertones in the Dune universe: An "elite" group of intelligentsia are responsible for the seeding and cultivation of a planted religion among a chosen group of people, the Fremen, for purposes that transcend and ultimately abjure the purported nature of the planted religion. The Fremen are led to believe that a messiah will bring them to greater glory, and similarly, the undead are led to believe that the birth of their own messianic figure will bring about their "salvation" whatever that resembles. In both cases, the Bene Gesserit as well as the Lords are using these instilled beliefs to reach an end that may parallel the goals of the common folk, but are steeped in entirely different ambitions and goals. Has this happened in human history, I wonder? Is a similar manipulation at the core of Christian dogma?
What's the whole purpose of it when almost everybody is an undead/demon/monster, cursed, aggressive, etc... and practically with no brains whatsoever? Let the Age of Dark begin, maybe something will be different.
are you trying to imply that will be more elden ring archeology? don't tease me like that! it's the greatest series on youtube.... I'm also hyped to see you start a DS archeology as well, keep em all coming!!
Can't you start to do videos like these about 'A Song of Ice and Fire'? There are a couple of channels that do that, but I don't think anyone could have as a professional go at it as you.
I posted this elsewhere but I wanted to post it here for your thoughts. Given that the path to the Kiln of the First Flame has its own sky, yet is connected to The World by a long white door in 1. That it is connected by a long dark hallway in Dark Souls 2 and that in Dark Souls 3 all 3 depictions in it heavily imply that The Kiln exists outside of time. It seems to exist in a realm of Abstracts and this leads to a theory of mine that Fire in Dark Souls represents Civilization and that Darkness represents Nature. That is why Humans have Dark Souls because we come from Nature and yet bound by Civilization (the Dark Sign being a ring of fire around dark) to become more than mindless beasts. Yet the fire harms us and warms us in equal measure and constantly parts of us lash out in rebellion towards it. Yet we perpetuate it because the Dark was/is terrifying because there is distinction between anything. It is a sleep like state where both dreams and nightmares but the latter half caused by the Fires encroachment upon it instead of acceptance of it. Yet the Dark is also gentle in that it is not intentionally cruel. It simply is. In the end The Fire Fades and Civilization will fall bringing about a Dark Age. Also as the Lord of Flame, the various leaders throughout history, are consumed by the very power they wield and enforce their will about them but all of them are keeping alive the civilization in its many forms first started by that one leader lost to history. They then choose successors or are overthrown and they too meet the same fate. In doing so they and their people perpetuate the cruelties of the fire and oppress others even dehumanizing them and yet they do so in fear of The Dark. In fear of not only Nature but Human Nature itself as many of the nightmarish things in The Dark originate from Humans. This not only echoes with the words of Darkseeker Kaathe at the end of the video but also ties into the Serpent imagery in Elden Ring that Hawkshaw noted in his video Elden Ring Snake Iceberg. Also this feeds into one more theory. That Gwyn and his entire family are Humans too. Humans that see themselves as gods and are seen as gods due to the power that they wield being descended from Gwyn who held the most powerful Lord Soul but Humans nonetheless. Following the pattern of relating in game phenomena to the real world reminds me of how in Early Classical Era of History Kings WERE Deified and then in the medieval era we had the Divine Right of Kings as they were bequeathed power by God/gods. Furthermore it is a common hypothesis that many deities were based off of real people from the morning of mankind that became deified via generations of ancestor worship. "My grandfather Schmidtyr was this tribes best smith and his weapons are used to this day! Even by your Uncle Kuril. In fact, he used one to kill a great beast that slew many of our kinsmen" "Your great great Grandfather Schmidt was so good at smithing it is said that he had the power to make his weapons everlasting which is why our greatest warrior Kuril only used them" "Our ancestor Smidt was related to the ancestor Kurl who was the greatest Warrior. It is said that Kurl left home one day with Smidts greatest sword to fight a great foe." "And lo did the God of Smithing and craftsmenship bestow upon the God of War Kurl a great weapon and said 'Now go my friend and slay Death itself' and they fight to this day. Which is why we bury our ever-resting ones for one day when Kurl defeats Death shall they rise awake once more."
Congratulations, I just went through the Isle of the Alchemists in Lies of P and thought "This castle is of a way older stratam than the devices currently in place" I would love see experienced lore hunters tackle this.
Ya know I still think the guy with smough, Ornstein, is the armor of the first son/nameless king recreated from illusion by the snake man gwyndolin along with godmother and even smough himself. A recreation of the court by him and not Gwyn himself as his grave he stands guard over.
Gwyn heaped so much BS onto the world. It's kind of incredible to think about. The "accursed darksign", the "undead curse", the "chosen undead". Heck, even "linking the fire". All BS that ensured that people would suffer for millennia upon millennia. It's kinda funny, pling pling plong initially makes you feel kinda bad for Gwyn. But really, you should be feeling bad for yourself, you're doomed to suffer either way.
No one talks about how it seems like the only way to place the soul vessel is through the abyss. Also how that location looks like lost Izze.. and how there seems to be more souls vessel’s in the room. Plus isn’t it weird to go through a full white room before entering the final stage. It’s almost like an inverted abyss. I almost feel like we invade gwyms world at the end of his time.
I was in early highschool when I began to become more and more secular. I remember when I found out that Frampt and Gwyndolin were lying to the undead to prop up their own selfish goals, it helped me take that last step into atheism. Miyazaki's distrust/disgust with religious institutions are one of his traits I admire the most.
@@jacobhoover1654 But Gwyn did tremble at the Dark, and desperately clung to the light in fear of humans. I know it's not a one-to-one example, as I'm not a misotheist, but Miyazaki never paints the high religious figures in a positive light either. It just further reinforced my atheism, learning about how evil the abrahamic god was.
@@jacobhoover1654 A lot, but the immediate things that come to mind is punishing Adam and Eve for daring to obtain knowledge for themselves and not being dependent on god, flooding the world, demand that people love him unconditionally or suffer forever in hell, psychologically toying with Abraham by demanding the sacrifice of his son, commanding Moses to commit massacres, etc. In fact, the Abrahamic god is so evil, that scholars in ancient times tried to reconcile this by creating Gnosticism, and claiming the god of the old testament wasn't actually the same god but an entity called the Demiurge.
I fundamentally disagree with the notion that the three standing statues 'embracing' a baby isn't someone of importance, or more to the point, is only there to facilitate the prophecy of the Chosen Undead. I'm of the opinion that the stature is Fina, queen of the gods. The reason the statue of The Nameless King is destroyed while his mother's statue is not is because King Faraam abdicated the throne, infuriating the Royal House of Gwyn. It is why his statues continue to be the target of iconoclasm while the statues of Fina do not, because whoever is doing it is doing it by order of the gods, with Gwyndolin being the prime suspect. As for the Fina statues, the observation that she's holding an Astora sword is spot on, which hints to the fact that Astora (as well as the weapon type) is linked to her specifically, much like Athens is linked to Athena rather than the statue serving the tale of the Chosen Undead. If this is correct then Fina played a critical role in the construction of the Undead Legend, and with the "fate of the Undead" being used so much in the legend, is it any wonder that Fina is known as the Goddess of Fate. There are things you overlooked regarding the other statues of Fina that also play a critical role in the construction of the Chosen Undead legend. While the location of the Fina and baby Gwynevere statue is located in another section of the undead places of worship, the Fina statue in the Catacombs is a place of the dead, which is fundamentally different to the undead when it comes to the logic of the world. This is odd, until you realize it is hidden behind a wall meaning this statue is being kept secret. Two things are going off here. One, the baby is likely illegitimate and two, Fina is related to Nito. It has long been speculated in the Japanese community that Priscilla is Gwyndolin's mother. If correct it would mean the baby in Fina's arms is Priscilla, and much like her she's being kept locked away as a secret in the Paint World of Ariamis. Gwyn had a baby with Priscilla resulting in Gwyndolin being Gwyn's lastborn while making Yorshka from DS3 being the younger crossbreed half sister of Gwyndolin as Priscilla continued to have children after Gwyn linked himself to the first flame. When it comes to Fina being related to Nito, the link is Allfather Lloyd, the grey giant. In the Japanese text, Allfather Lloyd is referred to as Gwyn's uncle, but more specifically the younger brother of Gwyn's wife's parents. This was lost in the English translation, even more so in DS3 when Allfather Lloyd is referred to as a derivative fraud when in the Japanese text he's referred to as a collateral relative and not a descendant of Gwyn. With Allfather Lloyd having a massive presence in the Catacombs, the Tomb of the Giants and the praying of the Way of White maidens to the Fina statue in the Undead Church points heavily that Fina is a giant. There's more to this theory as well. In the nativity bas-relief surrounding the Fina & Gwynevere statue you see wheat. Most people associate this with just Gwynevere as in the Japanese text of the Divine Blessing mentions that Gwynevere is known as the Goddess of good harvest, plus you see all around Anor Londo bas-reliefs of a woman baking bread. However, when taking the statue of Fina and Gwynevere into consideration, one can translate that this Divine Blessing was an heirloom handed down to Gwynevere by her mother, much like the Sunlight Blade was an heirloom of Gwyn's handed down to The Nameless King. So when it comes to harvest and wheat, the tool associated with them is the scythe, and where is the only place you can find a scythe in DS1? The Catacombs. And who else wields a scythe? Priscilla. The scythe is also in the shape of a crescent, which is the symbol of the 'Dark Moon', which is also the shape of Lautrec's crescent shotel, with Lautrec being in love with Fina. Is it any wonder why he's on a pilgrimage to Anor Londo's throne if not to offer a firekeeper's soul to his Goddess Queen Fina. The only question on my mind if he knows that Queen Fina is now Velka. On top of all of this there's even more proof that Fina the goddess of fate is a giant and associated with the dead when looking at the Undead Crypt in DS2. Another bas-relief at the entrance shows a giant Madonna figure with a skeleton face over a crowd of tiny people. This right here cements the idea that this is Fina, or Velka in her dead form. Then we've got Agdayne who says this "Death is equitable, accepting. We will all, one day, be welcomed by HER EMBRACE". And then Shanalotte saying "I was born of dragons, contrived by men. By ones that would cozen (trick) FATE HERSELF, they are the ones that created me". Everything points to Fina who is now Velka, being the power behind the curtain, the Dark Moon Queen married to the Sun Light King, a union of opposites that granted this family immense power over the world, the king of life with the queen of dead. Fina/Velka being the mother of Faraam, Gwynevere and Priscilla, while being the grandmother of the Dark Sun crossbreed Gwyndolin, no doubt to create an heir that can escape the fading of the flame. With Fina being a giant and the original goddess of harvest, one can come to the conclusion that the human vessels are nothing more than an animated straw toy doll a giant would create to shackle shards of the dark soul while Gwyn gave the illusion of life with beautiful exterior and a fake soul for their memories. As Vendrick points out in the Japanese dialogue text "I didn't know how much of a fool I was because of a fleeting vessel, a FALSE SOUL".
The second statue isn't behind a false wall tho. This string of theory is good but doesn't hold up to poking. It being a statue of The Chosen Undead makes much more sense.
@@DichotomousRex I left out the statue in Firelink Shrine because that is different to the three Fina/Velka statues. It is unique and I like the idea of it being a prophecy statue, even though I'm not fully sold on it because I haven't looked deep into it.
On the topic of the church in the Undead Parish, what do you think of the theory that Titanite slabs were carved to tell the story of the world, and that the niche near the altar in the Undead Parish contained such a slab for its obvious spiritual importance before it turned into the Titanite Demon near Andre?
Interestingly, there's one in Anor Londo, too, in a room akin to an even smaller parish. It's not that far off; if anything, it's far more appropriate than the Fire Keeper corpse currently on it( seriously, talk about blasphemy!)
@@alyseleem2692 Anor Londo is a logical place to place lots of stone slabs that have the history and end of the world written on them. It is also home to many Titanite Demons and a lot of Demon Titanite, seriously, you'll upgrade your boss weapons so much once you get there.
@@Nemo12417 Yes, but more than that, the location of the demon in Anor Londo, and thus the slab it sprung from, inside a sort of parish, indicates to me that it must have been read then to an audience.... Like scripture.
12:32 Another connection to the Chosen Undead as the specfically *Jewish* messisah is that all the aspects of the religion we see are for a messisah that has yet to come. Which I think is clever, use Jesus and Mary iconography to suggest the concept of the messisah, but have a Jewish messisah fit the specific lore better. Especially since a majority of undead would be diasporic, driven from their homelands to Lordran. And the Chosen Undead coming and lifting the curse would allow them to return. Which is an inversion of real life. People from all the lands of the earth are exiled *to* an ancient place that is the center of most religions, it seems, and all the interesting stuff happened.
I just watched a FudgeMuppet video on "The Missing God" from The Elder Scrolls. Nirn is said to be created by "the interplay of Light and Darkness" as Anu and Padomay wandered the Void, then being shattered into twelve worlds and created from them again. Perhaps the Chosen Undead (representation of humans and the Furtive Pygmy) wrestling with Gwyn, Frampt & Kaathe, "one was made to satisfy the other". ruclips.net/video/RavJvfginvU/видео.htmlsi=6_NGYqwayLbM2RkO
I just want to point out that when people were speculating that the mother and child statue represented the birth of Gwyn's firstborn, Dark Souls 3 had obviously not been released yet. So we had no idea who the firstborn was, what he looked like, or what weapon he actually yielded. In hindsight the conclusion looks silly now, but 12 years ago, it was pretty convincing.
I love your videos man and I have always wondered about lordans early history and the more obscure ruins about the area. Aswell as the chosen undead themselves
This video really made me think if there is a connection between the dichotomy of the undeads and the gods, and the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche's writings on Slave and master morality? The undeads in dark souls worship the chosen undead and that he will link the fire. But this worship of the chosen undead is only to serve the will of the gods so that they can keep their power and influence. Right? Roughly speaking, Nietzsche wrote that the slaves of the roman times had to justify their suffering existence somehow and thus they created slave morality. Some religious scholars think that Jesus was a slave because his mother Mary was. Because of Jesus's pity and empathy for all people he ultimately died for our sins, and as a consequence Christianity was born from Jesus's morality. Although a lot of these christian moralities do sound like common sense, they do so because according to Nietzsche the whole western world is based off the ''slave morality'' thinking and so we are pitiful unaware of its influence on us. Nietzsche saw ''master morality'' not only to exert power over others, but also over themselves. Courage, honor, strength, pride those were moralities of the strong and powerful according to Nietzsche. And pity, cowardliness and petty were the moralities of the weak according to him. Thus, it is not that difficult to establish a connection between Nietzsche's writings on ''Slave vs master morality'' and the undeads fate controlled by the gods of Anor Londo. The undeads are pitiful unware of the fate that has been laid before them. For them it is their entire meaning of existence. Its a call of duty, and a meaningful undertaking. Heck, even the roman empire became more and more christian as time went on and saw benefits in becoming so. Just like the gods of Anor Londo do in wanting to help the chosen undead linking the fire in Dark souls. With all this explained , the point im trying to reach here is that Miyazaki probably could have been influenced by Nietzsche's philosophy, and he thought it could make for some interesting dynamics in the world of Dark Souls. I think I'm definitely not the first one to make this connection, and certainly not the last. But i still find it important and interesting to keep in mind that when explaining the lore of Dark souls, Elden ring, Bloodborne and so on, a lot feels heavily inspired by Friedrich Nietzsche's works, and hes certainly not the only philosopher Miyazaki and his team have been getting inspiration from. Other than that, another great video! :)
I’m not sure I buy the narrative that people can willingly become undead. I assume it’s based on a couple things, namely Solaires dialogue about him becoming undead, and the Paladin set description, talking about how the Way of White ”produced it’s first undead”. The word produce is doing a lot of heavy lifting there, but produce doesn’t necessarily mean creating something, rather it can also mean to reveal or show something, like a police officer could ask you to produce identification. My alternative reading is that the Way of White basically wasn’t able to keep the spreading of the Undead Curse within their ranks a secret anymore, and so they needed to publically integrate and explain the presence of the undead, leading to the anointment of the Undead Paladins who were sent on suicide missions to the catacombs to basically just throw a blanket over the issue.
So excited for the next part!!! The dark, unspoken truths about the franchise's lore are what I spend 100% of my downtime thinking about. TA you're my god but it's and INT based faith. Jk but you get it. #V*lkaStatues
Great video i really loved it. Always belived that those statue where Gwynevere Or The Namless King But thid makes way more sense! I loved the part when you mentioned that some undead Belives that the chosens one will returns at the ends of times because it is exacly what happens in Dark Souls 3. Even Lord Gwynn in a way returns in the last moments of Souls of Cinder The fire calls he's most powerful follower to protect the flame! It would be really great see you do something on the catacombs or another Dark Souls locations Because they are gorgeus.
Loved the video and so awesome to see you doing OG Dark Souls. I’ve never seen this theory proposed and as usual, I’m sold. One thing that occurred to me towards the end of the video, is the lack of item description references to this prophesied messiah. References to the prophecy seem to me to be always sort of ‘old legends’ and are often inaccurate e.g. Oscar saying there’s only one bell. It just seems strange that even if the outside world was slightly isolated from the religion, that references don’t pop up to it throughout Lordran items. Also, it seems that the Way of White is the dominant religion outside of Lordran, rather than the prophecy. So are you thinking this is more of a Lordran exclusive religion with ‘whispers’ of it reaching Astora etc. hence the ‘legends’? If so, again it just seems strange for such a significant religion in Lordran not to have items like warriors of the faith weapons and armaments, or a ring associated with it. I think you’re right but just something that’s bugging me.
I still think it could possibly be The Nameless King because The Nameless Queen may be Velka, The Goddess of Sin. She may be the mother of Gwyn's first born, Gwyn similar to Zeus had "some" mistresses and I think Velka is one of them. Nameless King may have also been damnatio mortae'd due to being a bastard, The first born bastard in royalty. It may also be Gwyn and his Nameless Mother, or his mother is Velka. These games man.
I am only at the start of act 2, and I have some thoughts. If the statues are meant to depict the Birth of your character. Which ending would they be trying to depict? I have reason to believe that the ending would be the Dark Lord ending. That is why the undead worship it. Because that is the next natural phase of the world. I also have a not even half baked idea that Astora may be trying to force it. There are only 2 characters that of their own free will improve our weapons and help us start our journey. Oscar of Astora and Andre of Astora. Without these 2 characters we would never leave the undead asylum and have +6 and higher weapons. Sure you can beat the game without the upgrades, but having a blacksmith improve your weaponry is what any logical person would do. In the files there are cutscenes of Andre(who has clones in the Painted world and Dark root who give us the means of both negating the necromancers powers in the catacombs and dealing bonus damage to God's with Divine and Occult respectively) in the game files of him or one of his clones moving the statue in Firelink Shrine. I think this was the original plan if you didn't side with Frampt and Kaathe came later on. Because Andre would still open your way to Firelink Altar in Frampt's place by moving said statue. This was obviously scraped though for unknown reasons.
There are many prophecies and psalms foretelling the Messiah being from the line of David who will be mocked, suffer, and cursed by hanging on the tree. Not just a warrior king of tangible and petty lines drawn by ingnorant, sinful and petty "kings" but a spiritual warrior who casts out demons, forgive sins and will conquer death by death.
Hello archeologist. Do you think the reason why there's burned bodies around the Lands Between (like the ones crucified) is because they were used as kindling during the first Erdtree burning? And they may have used them cause Marika may have refused to use the giant's flame? Thoughts?
I love how ur videos feel like my sociology/anthropology classes mixed with soulsborne lore. Keep up the great work :)
The fact that we can still lore speculate on a decade old game speaks for the world building from Fromsoft and Miyazaki.
Exactly!!! Here Here!!!😊
Great comment
And it ruined a generation of writers with bad priming
yfw you realize dark souls 1 is a decade old already.... Time fucking flies. Jesus christ.
@@asherroodcreel640 Care to elaborate? Not asking in a "prove it" kind of way, rather I'm interested in the writing process, particularly in the context of video games!
I would even say it's easier to argue the statue isn't sitting on Archtree branches, but just on branches and wood. A pyre, to signify the woman and/or her baby are meant to be burned.
Good point.
Well, damn...
Why not a pyre made of archtree branches? Could be a double meaning that the mother and child need to be burnt for the world to continue on the way it is but eventually, like all things, this tree will wither and fade into darkness and linking the fire will only be possible so many times before this tree becomes ash
The first connection I made was that the statue is on top on the same kind of wood pyre like the lord vessel is placed. One could say the woman is a vessel for the child before it's born. If so, the child would be the fire of the vessel.
We could overthink it and relate it to the witch of izolith that created the flame that gave birth to demons and that the pigmy used.
Explanation is heavily flawed. Mother of the player (Chosen One) is never depicted in the game, and there is no proof she is important or even remarkable like Virgin Mary. While player is some kind of Messianic figure (sacrifices himself for the world, just like Jesus) , his mother is simply not relevant.
The chosen undead was resurrected at the end if DS3 thru the soul of cinder at the literal end of times, so that variation of the prophecy did come true eventually which is kinda neat.
Another thing about the cut content you mention is that the person who pushes the Firelink statue aside to access the kiln is the blacksmith Andre. Andre of Astora.
I've got to say, you've become my favorite and objectively best game lore youtuber ever. You don't just take the item descriptions and make vague theories about the lore that leave people more confused than before watching the video. You actually do your research and basically reverse-engineer how the devs crafted the lore of the game via its environment and artistic direction. This makes the lore much more tangible and logical. Thank you!
Totally agree
Exactly, almost ever other lore channel is just emotional speculation rather than sober analysis.
Preach
there is a problem with consistency across videos, though...
He lies about Christianity in key points. He says that early Christians had to "reconcile the fact that the Messiah was dead" with his coming again.
Christ rose from the dead. He defeated death. That is the entire point of Christianity. That is why the first Christians were willing to be martyred and die. It wasn't fabricated later as Tarnished Archaeologist would have you believe.
He is a malicious gnostic.
I think you're correct about the statues representation, and also I think that we recreate the scene with Gwynevere. She's essentially the mother in the portrayal, with her size making us seem almost as her child.
It makes the illusory truth of it even more scathing when you look at it that way
IM HERE TO LEARN MY LORD
WISDOM SHALL BEFILL THEE
OPEN MY EYES ON THE INSIDE
Iiii’m READY!
I SHALL PARTAKE
MAY CHAOS TAKE THE WOOORLDDDD
*pats Firelink Shrine*
"This baby can fit so much speculation in it."
I Love dark souls 1 so much, honestly my favorite game of all time
Even though elden ring is in terms of polish the better game, there's something to ds1 that's just something else.
@@merlinkater7756it’s just so unique. So much character and love put into it.
It's especially fun to analyze these things WITHOUT the context of later games. Remember, when Dark Souls came out, Miyazaki didn't intend for sequels. It was supposed to be its own self-contained story. For example, people who discuss which ending is better like to bring up how Linking the Fire is (supposedly) better because the story of the future games ostensibly depends on you, the player character, Linking the Fire - though this seems to insist that nobody else, such as Solaire, could have done so, it is much more annoying to me that the Dark Lord ending is not dismissed out of some more concrete argument but through, basically, pure convenience. The story would be simpler if you Linked the Fire ergo it is better to do so. Well, that's beside the point.
Yeah, DS1 and Bloodborne are goats
It always seemed more like the statues were referring to Velka, to me, since so much of the imagery leads to the painted world. I can see the chosen undead, although it's unusual that a prophecy about the chosen undead would have so much focus on a fictional woman, mother to a fictional child. With Mary, it's at least predicated on existing, defined characters. One could jump a few hoops to rationalize why images of motherhood would be a core image for undead, but I doubt it would be that deep in development. I'd sooner accept that they just wanted generic church icons and it had no purpose until late in development, if at all.
There's something really sad about the chosen undead child being depicted with sword in hand. Still swaddled yet already destined to fight and struggle
It's pretty common iconography in religions, like Jesus being presented with myrrh as a gift signifying his death while still a newborn.
Iirc guts was birthed from a dead woman, and immediately raised and trained in a merc band, but it's been a hot minute.
Berserk may be too much for your sensibilities of this reference is found harrowing.
Born for the grindset, molded by it.
It is a little at odds with it's Christian influenced iconography as depicting someone holding a sword in Christian art is a reference to their means of martyrdom, execution by being beheaded with a sword. An example of this is the portraits of St. Paul which almost always depict him holding a sword.
You GOTTA do a video on the arrival of the Numen, please!
Yes and what is it with the absence of Ships in Elden Ring? You only see a couple and it's obvious they are a thing but there are no docks no ports or anything. Also the Rusty Anchor item description is so SUS.
Seems pretty clear that the video is already in production and will be coming soon
@@misterio3678 Yeah, there are definitely important questions here, even on a basic metaphysical level.
If "The Lands Between" are, indeed, between life and death (or planes of existence, generally), then what does "leaving" on a "ship" even imply, or look like?
The name Numen is almost certainly a reference to Numenor, a city inspired by Atlantis in the Tolkein mythos. Great seafarers and technologically advanced (like basically steampunk), ancestors of a lot of modern humans in "modern day" Middle Earth, etc. Would be one hell of a coincidence if the name Numen isn't a Tolkein reference.
bro is about to invalidate 12 years of lore research
It really fills me with dismay we’ll never get more answers about the primordial serpents. The serpent statues in Dark Souls 3 were the only mention of them as the story went on. Imo they were the most interesting characters in the Dark Souls franchise
Imo it's an allegory for Satan and Jesus. To each their own for which is which. Further explanation would only lessen the myth. You are the sheep, they are the shepherds. The origin is unnecessary.
I adore this channel. The parallels you draw between in-game and real-life architecture, iconography, and archeology is incredibly interesting. You really make learning about ancient civilisations so fascinating, something which I admire. Bravo, sir! Long may the sun shine!
wake up babe new tarnished archeologist video just dropped
That cliffhanger hurt me deeply…
Can’t wait for the next video ❤️
I’ve always wondered why there were animals depicted at the altar in the undead parish and now in hindsight it seems so obvious 😂 Great work as always, TA!
two things: 1) i am obsessed with this channel it is amazing 2) you drastically overestimate my ability to understand what is right in front of my face - my mind was getting blown every step of the way! so excited for part 2
I'm so glad you guys decided to touch the topic of dark souls! Although there have already been a lot of theorists who tried to decipher the trillogy, I feel like a lot of these theories are based more on speculation rather than facts, especially regarding the first game. I would love to see your take on the serpents!
I’m not sure common culture knew undead would be a thing till they literally became a thing. Barring hidden lore that they existed in the war or the dragons
The Virgin Mary was worshipped so much because she also was the embodiment of some Roman/Greek deities, Juno being one of the most obvious ones, much of the Greek myths are also infused in this game too
I've been obsessed with these games for close to a decade now and you still manage to consistently blow my mind. You spend as long as you want on that statue 👍
I'd love to hear your archeological opinion of the kiln of the first flame, from ds1&3.
DS2 implies that countless kingdoms rise and fall on the same spot, and continue to do so after DS2. I think DS1 and DS3 are so distant in time that it makes sense that even what is supposed to be the same locations would no longer have any resemblance to one another. This is part of the reason why all the callbacks to DS1 feel out of place to me, though perhaps that can be explained by how the fading of the flame manipulates space and time to bring people and placed toward the fading flame. Fire brings disparity, past and future, near and far, and as the fire fades so too does that disparity, causing time and distance to lose meaning.
I understand that, I meant about the people who built the temples around it, the designs of the area itself and if his theoretical purposes of the original structures.
Very interesting how the 'undead religion' reflects Nietzsche's idea of 'slave morality' serving a purpose to keep certain figures in power and values in favor. Of course, Nietzsche is all over Dark Souls (with it also being inspired by Berserk and all), but it's cool to be reminded of this once in a while.
Another thing about Nietzsche that I noticed while watching this video: the two endings reflect the two clashing ideals in Nietzsche's narrative. The 'good' ending of linking the fire reflects the Judeo-Christian notion of 'godly salvation' (as well as being a 'slave morality' used to, as I stated earlier, keep certain ideals in power), whilst the rebellious 'bad' ending embraces the human, earthly notions of what Dark represents in DS, bringing about an age of 'stained humanity'. This second ideal aligns with Nietzsche's ideal of embracing the earthly human body instead of transcendental notions, whether of afterlife or of the purity of the soul. The linking of fire ending also serves to preserve the 'status quo' of known 'welfare' , whereas the age of dark brings about a scary and unknown future, but one full of possibilites. This, again, reflects the dichotomy of clashing ideals in Nietzsche's narrative.
Let's not forget that in Elden Ring, the ending seen by most people as the canon ending has Ranni, a character who recites Nietzschean poetry, kill a prophet of God.
Dark souls 3's usurping the fire ending was always very Neitzchian to me. The will to power made manifest.
I disagree that the child statue is the chosen undead and not NK.
You didn't mention the Darkmoon Seance Ring - which links the Goddess to Gwyndolin (Gwyn's other son).
Perhaps, the Undead took it upon themselves to vandalise his statue because he abdicated his Lordship and refused to succeed Gwyn - either as an agent of Dark or Fire. The hollows at the altar weep in despair, like those of New Londo.
Well, color me impressed. You dismantled the entire Firstborn theory; bravo! I cannot wait to see more!( hope you do Oolacile someday)
That said, I do have a few notes:
1. The other statues in the Parish are what confuses me; the women holding the staff torches. To me, they seem a clear cut depiction of the Fire Witches of Izalith, albeit in a different iconagraphic style than Izalith, in their aspect as goddesses of war(note the helmets). The only question I have is; if so, why are they here?!
2. I do not believe Frampt is lying to us in any way for a simple reason; the existence of what is called a "Lord Of Cinder".
"So I will'd myself Lord, to link the fire, to paint a new vision. What is thine intent?"
A Lord Of Cinder is capable of reshaping the world; as a matter of fact, that is their whole purpose. Every year of those thousand years between us and Gwyn was bought by him sustaining it that entire time. Same with us and the Bearer Of The Curse,and so on and so forth. In exchange for their seemingly endless pain and sustaining of reality, the Lords Of Cinder hold a tenure as the "God" of this world; the will behind the Flame. I actually have a wider theory in the making about it(including why the Black Knights appear where they do), but in short, Frampt is not lying. Nor is false Gwynevere, even.
"A grave and arduous test of mettle, yea, it shall be."
"Inherit the Fire of our world"
We inherit the Fire; we become Lord Of Cinder for an age. For an age, we are " God"; for ages after that, every person worth mentioning in history tried to emulate us, follow in our footsteps. We have proven mortals can become gods; the price is merely agony incarnate.
Speaking of which, the Catacombs statue can be easily explained in this sense; considering what happened in Dark Souls 3, we know Lords Of Cinder can be summoned back to life at a dire enough occasion. In other words, the Undead may have believed our Chosen Undead would return at their darkest hour, summoned as a Lord Of Cinder, even after making the greatest sacrifice.
For all we know, it may have even happened at some point!(my guess is between 2 and 3)
3. I really like your focus on New Londo in the end; nobody talks enough about the place. That said, I also believe people underestimate the importance of the Four Kings; it goes to the point I believe the prophecy was once notably different.
Why?
Well, for starters, the statues make no reference to pilgrimage, and the Undead Asylum is unlikely to be as old as the Shrine. The Shrine itself is directly linked to New Londo; a city of Undead.
There's no need for much pilgrimage if your Shrine is an elevator away.
"Lord Gwyn recognized the foresight of these four great leaders of New Londo, and granted them their ranks and the fragments of a great soul."
The Four Kings were all Undead; now, remind me,how many statues with a baby holding a sword and a woman with a crown are there?
Doesn't their sharing of the Shard remind you of the Farron Legion's way of thinking? Sharing the soul of a greater being amongst themselves?
We all know what happened later, of course; still, a thousand years ago, it must've seemed like a foolproof plan. Loyal heirs to Gwyn,and a full city of Undead to pull from.
Pity it all went to ### when they fell to Dark and Lloyd took the helm.
"Talisman utilized by Allfather Lloyd's cleric knights to hunt down the Undead. Blocks Estus recovery within a limited area.
In the outside world, the Undead are accursed creatures, and Lloyd's cleric knights are widely praised for their Undead hunts."
As such, Frampt and Gwyndolin needed to..tweak a few things. Likely in the last few hundred years, since the emergence of the Abyss that consumed their former candidates.
What a great comment. Thanks
@@ThommyofThenn Thank you for the high praise!
Found this channel recently. Brother, no channel has captivated my attention like this before its effectively removed the brain rot 5 second attention span I developed from til tok. Your stuff is awesome dude. I hope you keep making it.
Dark Souls 1 and to an extent the architecture of the original Demon's Souls are honestly much more Byzantine than Medieval, even sort of overtly Roman in places such as the statues outside Orensein and Smough's arena.
It might be argued that it comes as a result of processing power (and budget) allowing for more fleshed-out worldspaces, but I rather dislike the medieval-ifying that the DeS remake did, and the later games kinda stray from the boxier Roman architecture as well. The latter is understandable as, well, the ages progress, but overall I think the most interesting physical worlds are found in DaS1, DeS, and of course the hyper-realized Victorian Prague/London of Bloodborne
Definitely, and not just architecture. Lordran (at least the Burg and church) is definitely pretty Mediterranean in inspiration and enemy design.
Both Balder and Berenike knights present there evoke a kind of roman legion aesthetic through the lens of medieval knights. Berenike helmets and shields, Balder segmented armor pieces.
Even though I already know the mayority of this, I really appreciate these videos. Because when I replay these games nowadays I do it for the mechanics and character creation possibilities, and I just run through the levels all the time.
So it's thanks to this content that I can still enjoy the narrative aspect of From's works.
Thank you ❤
Love the backdoor teaser, love the small portions of humor, and the fact that you stick to your "Tarnished Archeologist" catchphrases.
Oh yes and the talk about statues and stuff is cool too.
Statues are great.
*Lies to preserve lies and the power of those who wrote them.* Pretty on the nose vis a vis religion, no?
Ayo imma need that episode about the Numen obelisk G
Fromsoft must watch these videos and laugh so hard. Oh yeah bro that's the virgin mary it has deep lore connections! Just like the Apple in Death Note and all the crosses in EVA. Yeah we just are super into the bible and it's informing every iota of the plot, we definitely didn't use it because it looks cool!
Hes got a great big beautiful ✡ nose, and it's there two minutes early where he goes.
Not only are you preternaturally insightful, but it really shows just how much you love what you do.
Great vid! BTW, with dark souls remasteres you can spot many secrets along the chosen undead's path. My favourite one is how see little humanities sprouting out of the Great Tree. You can also track these humanity sprites all the way down to the Bed of Chaos
this didn't feel like it needed to be 25 minutes long but I like the main idea that the statues reflect the "religion of the Undead" which is to eventually produce the Chosen Undead
The video didn't even need to exist at all, because DS1 was never actually finished, it was not properly translated from Japanese, and the core identity had to be changed from Dark Ring to Dark Souls because of copyright issues.
Easily one of the best around. Even when I don't agree with a conclusion in your videos, I learn a ton. Love the depth you bring to these topics
so happy you're doing dark souls lore now too!! the perspectives you put on things and the way you point out stuff that i've literally never noticed in hours and hours of playing these games blows my mind every single time. i really hope you do some stuff centred on ds3 in the future as well, i played it for the first time recently and thought the lore and design details were so magical and immersive (especially with the nods to the previous games and how the world had changed since their time)! i kept thinking of this channel the whole time i played it and as soon as i was done i went and scoured your channel to see if you had anything on it 😭i'm so normal about these games
Just when I got a Dark Souls 1 Remastered for Christmas! The controls are so clunky 😅
Yeah it's official, you're my favorite SoulsBorne content creator
Religious indoctrination by a cult of personality at its rawest. Chilling how well Miyazaki and the team captured the insidiousness of Gwyn's plan with the Undead in the environmental storytelling.
I really hoped you were going to tackle Dark Souls at some point, thank you for this!
20 plus minutes of this just doesn't seem like enough. Just as I'm settling in for a super deep dive of this stuff, I have to wait for the next video. Amazing stuff as always TA. I've literally binge watched all your videos in like a week.
I think it is explained in the game that Gwyn helped set up this religion, basically creating a path for humanity to continually subjugate itself to prop up the Lords' continued rule.
I wish you would be more careful about forming a narrative. From the very start of the video your conclusions are drawn from a questionable foundation - That the Firelink Shrine and Undead Burg are inhabited by the Undead. The inhabitants are Undead NOW, but that doesn't mean they were Undead at the time all this iconography was constructed. You also don't provide any reasoning for why the same statue is located in the Catacombs, despite that being far removed from anything else.
I'd argue that Firelink Shrine and the Undead Perish were constructed following the first linking. The shrine was built to commemorate the first linking, and the perish was built for worship of the chosen undead prophecy.
It all serves Gwyn's goal of tricking the undead into feeding their humanity to the first flame. It is a religion he deliberately constructed to keep the age of fire going.
Considering that the advent of the undead curse would have caused a lot of upheaval and dread among the human population, they were probably desperate to find some kind of meaning in their newly found undeath.
This reminds me of the religious undertones in the Dune universe:
An "elite" group of intelligentsia are responsible for the seeding and cultivation of a planted religion among a chosen group of people, the Fremen, for purposes that transcend and ultimately abjure the purported nature of the planted religion.
The Fremen are led to believe that a messiah will bring them to greater glory, and similarly, the undead are led to believe that the birth of their own messianic figure will bring about their "salvation" whatever that resembles. In both cases, the Bene Gesserit as well as the Lords are using these instilled beliefs to reach an end that may parallel the goals of the common folk, but are steeped in entirely different ambitions and goals. Has this happened in human history, I wonder? Is a similar manipulation at the core of Christian dogma?
What's the whole purpose of it when almost everybody is an undead/demon/monster, cursed, aggressive, etc... and practically with no brains whatsoever? Let the Age of Dark begin, maybe something will be different.
Stay tuned for the next episode:)
OK! @@tarnishedarchaeologist
When everyone thought they knew everything about Dark Souls lore, the TA takes the stage...
are you trying to imply that will be more elden ring archeology? don't tease me like that! it's the greatest series on youtube.... I'm also hyped to see you start a DS archeology as well, keep em all coming!!
4:58 very curious, the words not matching closed captions. Intentional Easter egg or whoopsie?
Can't you start to do videos like these about 'A Song of Ice and Fire'? There are a couple of channels that do that, but I don't think anyone could have as a professional go at it as you.
I posted this elsewhere but I wanted to post it here for your thoughts.
Given that the path to the Kiln of the First Flame has its own sky, yet is connected to The World by a long white door in 1. That it is connected by a long dark hallway in Dark Souls 2 and that in Dark Souls 3 all 3 depictions in it heavily imply that The Kiln exists outside of time. It seems to exist in a realm of Abstracts and this leads to a theory of mine that Fire in Dark Souls represents Civilization and that Darkness represents Nature.
That is why Humans have Dark Souls because we come from Nature and yet bound by Civilization (the Dark Sign being a ring of fire around dark) to become more than mindless beasts. Yet the fire harms us and warms us in equal measure and constantly parts of us lash out in rebellion towards it. Yet we perpetuate it because the Dark was/is terrifying because there is distinction between anything. It is a sleep like state where both dreams and nightmares but the latter half caused by the Fires encroachment upon it instead of acceptance of it.
Yet the Dark is also gentle in that it is not intentionally cruel. It simply is.
In the end The Fire Fades and Civilization will fall bringing about a Dark Age.
Also as the Lord of Flame, the various leaders throughout history, are consumed by the very power they wield and enforce their will about them but all of them are keeping alive the civilization in its many forms first started by that one leader lost to history. They then choose successors or are overthrown and they too meet the same fate. In doing so they and their people perpetuate the cruelties of the fire and oppress others even dehumanizing them and yet they do so in fear of The Dark. In fear of not only Nature but Human Nature itself as many of the nightmarish things in The Dark originate from Humans.
This not only echoes with the words of Darkseeker Kaathe at the end of the video but also ties into the Serpent imagery in Elden Ring that Hawkshaw noted in his video Elden Ring Snake Iceberg.
Also this feeds into one more theory.
That Gwyn and his entire family are Humans too. Humans that see themselves as gods and are seen as gods due to the power that they wield being descended from Gwyn who held the most powerful Lord Soul but Humans nonetheless.
Following the pattern of relating in game phenomena to the real world reminds me of how in Early Classical Era of History Kings WERE Deified and then in the medieval era we had the Divine Right of Kings as they were bequeathed power by God/gods.
Furthermore it is a common hypothesis that many deities were based off of real people from the morning of mankind that became deified via generations of ancestor worship.
"My grandfather Schmidtyr was this tribes best smith and his weapons are used to this day! Even by your Uncle Kuril. In fact, he used one to kill a great beast that slew many of our kinsmen"
"Your great great Grandfather Schmidt was so good at smithing it is said that he had the power to make his weapons everlasting which is why our greatest warrior Kuril only used them"
"Our ancestor Smidt was related to the ancestor Kurl who was the greatest Warrior. It is said that Kurl left home one day with Smidts greatest sword to fight a great foe."
"And lo did the God of Smithing and craftsmenship bestow upon the God of War Kurl a great weapon and said 'Now go my friend and slay Death itself' and they fight to this day. Which is why we bury our ever-resting ones for one day when Kurl defeats Death shall they rise awake once more."
Congratulations, I just went through the Isle of the Alchemists in Lies of P and thought "This castle is of a way older stratam than the devices currently in place"
I would love see experienced lore hunters tackle this.
My excitement is immeasurable and my year is saved. I cannot wait for the next part!
Horray, my most beloved Souls experience!
I am ready for Lore, Tarnished :-)
Not bringing the way of white into this when they're shown to pray at the Madonna seems like a strange non-inclusion
So the chosen undead is basically both Jesus and the antichrist... makes sense
Wait. That cliffhanger.
The *Fourth* Lord?
Ya know I still think the guy with smough, Ornstein, is the armor of the first son/nameless king recreated from illusion by the snake man gwyndolin along with godmother and even smough himself. A recreation of the court by him and not Gwyn himself as his grave he stands guard over.
Does the fact that the statue is also located next to the Darkmoon Seance Ring mean Gwyndolin is part of the conspirators?
Gwyn heaped so much BS onto the world. It's kind of incredible to think about. The "accursed darksign", the "undead curse", the "chosen undead". Heck, even "linking the fire". All BS that ensured that people would suffer for millennia upon millennia.
It's kinda funny, pling pling plong initially makes you feel kinda bad for Gwyn. But really, you should be feeling bad for yourself, you're doomed to suffer either way.
There are real world parallels too
No one talks about how it seems like the only way to place the soul vessel is through the abyss. Also how that location looks like lost Izze.. and how there seems to be more souls vessel’s in the room. Plus isn’t it weird to go through a full white room before entering the final stage. It’s almost like an inverted abyss. I almost feel like we invade gwyms world at the end of his time.
Still upset to this day that Miyazaki never took us to Astora or Catarina
How to tell you studied Theology without telling you studied Theology.
*slaps ruins*
“You can fit so much lore into this baby”
I was in early highschool when I began to become more and more secular. I remember when I found out that Frampt and Gwyndolin were lying to the undead to prop up their own selfish goals, it helped me take that last step into atheism. Miyazaki's distrust/disgust with religious institutions are one of his traits I admire the most.
Just because Gywndolin & Frampt lied to you doesn't mean Gwyn didn't exist
@@jacobhoover1654 But Gwyn did tremble at the Dark, and desperately clung to the light in fear of humans. I know it's not a one-to-one example, as I'm not a misotheist, but Miyazaki never paints the high religious figures in a positive light either. It just further reinforced my atheism, learning about how evil the abrahamic god was.
@@blakebailey22 what did the abrahmaic god do that was evil?
@@jacobhoover1654 A lot, but the immediate things that come to mind is punishing Adam and Eve for daring to obtain knowledge for themselves and not being dependent on god, flooding the world, demand that people love him unconditionally or suffer forever in hell, psychologically toying with Abraham by demanding the sacrifice of his son, commanding Moses to commit massacres, etc. In fact, the Abrahamic god is so evil, that scholars in ancient times tried to reconcile this by creating Gnosticism, and claiming the god of the old testament wasn't actually the same god but an entity called the Demiurge.
@@jacobhoover1654An omnipotent being that allows sin so that it may punish said sin is absolutely evil. Also, genocide.
I fundamentally disagree with the notion that the three standing statues 'embracing' a baby isn't someone of importance, or more to the point, is only there to facilitate the prophecy of the Chosen Undead. I'm of the opinion that the stature is Fina, queen of the gods. The reason the statue of The Nameless King is destroyed while his mother's statue is not is because King Faraam abdicated the throne, infuriating the Royal House of Gwyn. It is why his statues continue to be the target of iconoclasm while the statues of Fina do not, because whoever is doing it is doing it by order of the gods, with Gwyndolin being the prime suspect. As for the Fina statues, the observation that she's holding an Astora sword is spot on, which hints to the fact that Astora (as well as the weapon type) is linked to her specifically, much like Athens is linked to Athena rather than the statue serving the tale of the Chosen Undead. If this is correct then Fina played a critical role in the construction of the Undead Legend, and with the "fate of the Undead" being used so much in the legend, is it any wonder that Fina is known as the Goddess of Fate.
There are things you overlooked regarding the other statues of Fina that also play a critical role in the construction of the Chosen Undead legend. While the location of the Fina and baby Gwynevere statue is located in another section of the undead places of worship, the Fina statue in the Catacombs is a place of the dead, which is fundamentally different to the undead when it comes to the logic of the world. This is odd, until you realize it is hidden behind a wall meaning this statue is being kept secret. Two things are going off here. One, the baby is likely illegitimate and two, Fina is related to Nito. It has long been speculated in the Japanese community that Priscilla is Gwyndolin's mother. If correct it would mean the baby in Fina's arms is Priscilla, and much like her she's being kept locked away as a secret in the Paint World of Ariamis. Gwyn had a baby with Priscilla resulting in Gwyndolin being Gwyn's lastborn while making Yorshka from DS3 being the younger crossbreed half sister of Gwyndolin as Priscilla continued to have children after Gwyn linked himself to the first flame. When it comes to Fina being related to Nito, the link is Allfather Lloyd, the grey giant. In the Japanese text, Allfather Lloyd is referred to as Gwyn's uncle, but more specifically the younger brother of Gwyn's wife's parents. This was lost in the English translation, even more so in DS3 when Allfather Lloyd is referred to as a derivative fraud when in the Japanese text he's referred to as a collateral relative and not a descendant of Gwyn. With Allfather Lloyd having a massive presence in the Catacombs, the Tomb of the Giants and the praying of the Way of White maidens to the Fina statue in the Undead Church points heavily that Fina is a giant. There's more to this theory as well. In the nativity bas-relief surrounding the Fina & Gwynevere statue you see wheat. Most people associate this with just Gwynevere as in the Japanese text of the Divine Blessing mentions that Gwynevere is known as the Goddess of good harvest, plus you see all around Anor Londo bas-reliefs of a woman baking bread. However, when taking the statue of Fina and Gwynevere into consideration, one can translate that this Divine Blessing was an heirloom handed down to Gwynevere by her mother, much like the Sunlight Blade was an heirloom of Gwyn's handed down to The Nameless King. So when it comes to harvest and wheat, the tool associated with them is the scythe, and where is the only place you can find a scythe in DS1? The Catacombs. And who else wields a scythe? Priscilla. The scythe is also in the shape of a crescent, which is the symbol of the 'Dark Moon', which is also the shape of Lautrec's crescent shotel, with Lautrec being in love with Fina. Is it any wonder why he's on a pilgrimage to Anor Londo's throne if not to offer a firekeeper's soul to his Goddess Queen Fina. The only question on my mind if he knows that Queen Fina is now Velka.
On top of all of this there's even more proof that Fina the goddess of fate is a giant and associated with the dead when looking at the Undead Crypt in DS2. Another bas-relief at the entrance shows a giant Madonna figure with a skeleton face over a crowd of tiny people. This right here cements the idea that this is Fina, or Velka in her dead form. Then we've got Agdayne who says this "Death is equitable, accepting. We will all, one day, be welcomed by HER EMBRACE". And then Shanalotte saying "I was born of dragons, contrived by men. By ones that would cozen (trick) FATE HERSELF, they are the ones that created me".
Everything points to Fina who is now Velka, being the power behind the curtain, the Dark Moon Queen married to the Sun Light King, a union of opposites that granted this family immense power over the world, the king of life with the queen of dead. Fina/Velka being the mother of Faraam, Gwynevere and Priscilla, while being the grandmother of the Dark Sun crossbreed Gwyndolin, no doubt to create an heir that can escape the fading of the flame. With Fina being a giant and the original goddess of harvest, one can come to the conclusion that the human vessels are nothing more than an animated straw toy doll a giant would create to shackle shards of the dark soul while Gwyn gave the illusion of life with beautiful exterior and a fake soul for their memories. As Vendrick points out in the Japanese dialogue text "I didn't know how much of a fool I was because of a fleeting vessel, a FALSE SOUL".
The second statue isn't behind a false wall tho. This string of theory is good but doesn't hold up to poking. It being a statue of The Chosen Undead makes much more sense.
@@DichotomousRex I left out the statue in Firelink Shrine because that is different to the three Fina/Velka statues. It is unique and I like the idea of it being a prophecy statue, even though I'm not fully sold on it because I haven't looked deep into it.
Dude I just watched your vid from last week and I’m now I’m blessed with a 2nd?!
Miazaki be praised…
legit most underrated fromsoft video artists.
your grasp of pedagogy is so fire that it's invisible. nicely done.
Haha who still thinks firstborn is statue mwahaha
I love so much the delving in DS1 lore, this game has still a couple of unanswered misteries. Keep it up ❤
I love your videos!
Thank you!
On the topic of the church in the Undead Parish, what do you think of the theory that Titanite slabs were carved to tell the story of the world, and that the niche near the altar in the Undead Parish contained such a slab for its obvious spiritual importance before it turned into the Titanite Demon near Andre?
Interestingly, there's one in Anor Londo, too, in a room akin to an even smaller parish.
It's not that far off; if anything, it's far more appropriate than the Fire Keeper corpse currently on it( seriously, talk about blasphemy!)
@@alyseleem2692 Anor Londo is a logical place to place lots of stone slabs that have the history and end of the world written on them. It is also home to many Titanite Demons and a lot of Demon Titanite, seriously, you'll upgrade your boss weapons so much once you get there.
@@Nemo12417 Yes, but more than that, the location of the demon in Anor Londo, and thus the slab it sprung from, inside a sort of parish, indicates to me that it must have been read then to an audience....
Like scripture.
No game can rival dark souls 1. Its exceptional subtle stroy telling.
hope there will be more about bloodborne :)
12:32 Another connection to the Chosen Undead as the specfically *Jewish* messisah is that all the aspects of the religion we see are for a messisah that has yet to come. Which I think is clever, use Jesus and Mary iconography to suggest the concept of the messisah, but have a Jewish messisah fit the specific lore better. Especially since a majority of undead would be diasporic, driven from their homelands to Lordran. And the Chosen Undead coming and lifting the curse would allow them to return. Which is an inversion of real life. People from all the lands of the earth are exiled *to* an ancient place that is the center of most religions, it seems, and all the interesting stuff happened.
I just watched a FudgeMuppet video on "The Missing God" from The Elder Scrolls. Nirn is said to be created by "the interplay of Light and Darkness" as Anu and Padomay wandered the Void, then being shattered into twelve worlds and created from them again. Perhaps the Chosen Undead (representation of humans and the Furtive Pygmy) wrestling with Gwyn, Frampt & Kaathe, "one was made to satisfy the other".
ruclips.net/video/RavJvfginvU/видео.htmlsi=6_NGYqwayLbM2RkO
this guy been cooking
I just want to point out that when people were speculating that the mother and child statue represented the birth of Gwyn's firstborn, Dark Souls 3 had obviously not been released yet. So we had no idea who the firstborn was, what he looked like, or what weapon he actually yielded. In hindsight the conclusion looks silly now, but 12 years ago, it was pretty convincing.
I love your videos man and I have always wondered about lordans early history and the more obscure ruins about the area. Aswell as the chosen undead themselves
This video really made me think if there is a connection between the dichotomy of the undeads and the gods, and the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche's writings on Slave and master morality? The undeads in dark souls worship the chosen undead and that he will link the fire. But this worship of the chosen undead is only to serve the will of the gods so that they can keep their power and influence. Right? Roughly speaking, Nietzsche wrote that the slaves of the roman times had to justify their suffering existence somehow and thus they created slave morality. Some religious scholars think that Jesus was a slave because his mother Mary was. Because of Jesus's pity and empathy for all people he ultimately died for our sins, and as a consequence Christianity was born from Jesus's morality. Although a lot of these christian moralities do sound like common sense, they do so because according to Nietzsche the whole western world is based off the ''slave morality'' thinking and so we are pitiful unaware of its influence on us. Nietzsche saw ''master morality'' not only to exert power over others, but also over themselves. Courage, honor, strength, pride those were moralities of the strong and powerful according to Nietzsche. And pity, cowardliness and petty were the moralities of the weak according to him.
Thus, it is not that difficult to establish a connection between Nietzsche's writings on ''Slave vs master morality'' and the undeads fate controlled by the gods of Anor Londo. The undeads are pitiful unware of the fate that has been laid before them. For them it is their entire meaning of existence. Its a call of duty, and a meaningful undertaking. Heck, even the roman empire became more and more christian as time went on and saw benefits in becoming so. Just like the gods of Anor Londo do in wanting to help the chosen undead linking the fire in Dark souls.
With all this explained , the point im trying to reach here is that Miyazaki probably could have been influenced by Nietzsche's philosophy, and he thought it could make for some interesting dynamics in the world of Dark Souls. I think I'm definitely not the first one to make this connection, and certainly not the last. But i still find it important and interesting to keep in mind that when explaining the lore of Dark souls, Elden ring, Bloodborne and so on, a lot feels heavily inspired by Friedrich Nietzsche's works, and hes certainly not the only philosopher Miyazaki and his team have been getting inspiration from.
Other than that, another great video! :)
we truly were John Dark Soul all this time
Umbasa
Here we are again fellow Hunters
Less than an hour?!! WHERES THE REST OF MY FROMSOFT JUNKIES
YEAH BABY LETS GO JUST IN TIME FOR MY LUNCH AT WORK
I would love to see you tackle the BB chalice dungeons. What is Isz, Loran, etc
I’m not sure I buy the narrative that people can willingly become undead. I assume it’s based on a couple things, namely Solaires dialogue about him becoming undead, and the Paladin set description, talking about how the Way of White ”produced it’s first undead”.
The word produce is doing a lot of heavy lifting there, but produce doesn’t necessarily mean creating something, rather it can also mean to reveal or show something, like a police officer could ask you to produce identification.
My alternative reading is that the Way of White basically wasn’t able to keep the spreading of the Undead Curse within their ranks a secret anymore, and so they needed to publically integrate and explain the presence of the undead, leading to the anointment of the Undead Paladins who were sent on suicide missions to the catacombs to basically just throw a blanket over the issue.
My Gnosticism Senses are on Fire! Or, Dark Lord equivalent...
So excited for the next part!!! The dark, unspoken truths about the franchise's lore are what I spend 100% of my downtime thinking about. TA you're my god but it's and INT based faith. Jk but you get it. #V*lkaStatues
Great video i really loved it.
Always belived that those statue where Gwynevere Or The Namless King
But thid makes way more sense! I loved the part when you mentioned that some undead
Belives that the chosens one will returns at the ends of times because it is exacly what happens in Dark Souls 3.
Even Lord Gwynn in a way returns in the last moments of Souls of Cinder
The fire calls he's most powerful follower to protect the flame!
It would be really great see you do something on the catacombs or another Dark Souls locations
Because they are gorgeus.
Loved the video and so awesome to see you doing OG Dark Souls. I’ve never seen this theory proposed and as usual, I’m sold. One thing that occurred to me towards the end of the video, is the lack of item description references to this prophesied messiah. References to the prophecy seem to me to be always sort of ‘old legends’ and are often inaccurate e.g. Oscar saying there’s only one bell. It just seems strange that even if the outside world was slightly isolated from the religion, that references don’t pop up to it throughout Lordran items. Also, it seems that the Way of White is the dominant religion outside of Lordran, rather than the prophecy. So are you thinking this is more of a Lordran exclusive religion with ‘whispers’ of it reaching Astora etc. hence the ‘legends’? If so, again it just seems strange for such a significant religion in Lordran not to have items like warriors of the faith weapons and armaments, or a ring associated with it. I think you’re right but just something that’s bugging me.
I still think it could possibly be The Nameless King because The Nameless Queen may be Velka, The Goddess of Sin. She may be the mother of Gwyn's first born, Gwyn similar to Zeus had "some" mistresses and I think Velka is one of them. Nameless King may have also been damnatio mortae'd due to being a bastard, The first born bastard in royalty. It may also be Gwyn and his Nameless Mother, or his mother is Velka. These games man.
Wait, is this THE Tarnished Archeologist? I actually clicked the video without realizing. Man, Smoughtown cites your work so much.
I am only at the start of act 2, and I have some thoughts. If the statues are meant to depict the Birth of your character. Which ending would they be trying to depict? I have reason to believe that the ending would be the Dark Lord ending. That is why the undead worship it. Because that is the next natural phase of the world. I also have a not even half baked idea that Astora may be trying to force it. There are only 2 characters that of their own free will improve our weapons and help us start our journey. Oscar of Astora and Andre of Astora. Without these 2 characters we would never leave the undead asylum and have +6 and higher weapons. Sure you can beat the game without the upgrades, but having a blacksmith improve your weaponry is what any logical person would do. In the files there are cutscenes of Andre(who has clones in the Painted world and Dark root who give us the means of both negating the necromancers powers in the catacombs and dealing bonus damage to God's with Divine and Occult respectively) in the game files of him or one of his clones moving the statue in Firelink Shrine. I think this was the original plan if you didn't side with Frampt and Kaathe came later on. Because Andre would still open your way to Firelink Altar in Frampt's place by moving said statue. This was obviously scraped though for unknown reasons.
There are many prophecies and psalms foretelling the Messiah being from the line of David who will be mocked, suffer, and cursed by hanging on the tree. Not just a warrior king of tangible and petty lines drawn by ingnorant, sinful and petty "kings" but a spiritual warrior who casts out demons, forgive sins and will conquer death by death.
After catching up on Celtic mythology it sure seems like Gwyn is a combo of Lugh and the Dagda and Velka is basically the Morrigan.
Hello archeologist. Do you think the reason why there's burned bodies around the Lands Between (like the ones crucified) is because they were used as kindling during the first Erdtree burning? And they may have used them cause Marika may have refused to use the giant's flame? Thoughts?