He really doesn't know anything about actual history. 11:50 he is saying it makes no sense to have "four kings" of the same place, clearly having no idea about the tetrarch system of the Roman Empire where there were indeed literally 4 kings.
@@michaelfetter5413So because he didn't mention your hyper-specific example, he knows nothing about history? Lol. That's a pretty huge leap. King is usually singular and associated with monarchy. Clearly that is why he said it wouldn't make sense. But he said "leaders", which would include kings... so I really don't understand your point. The people you're referring to weren't even called kings. They were Emperor and Co-Emperor. So you're arguing semantics, and doing so imprecisely. But even if he didn't know about a specific historical topic, it doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about history. Like dude... there is a shit ton of history lol. Nearly no one is going to know all of it.
It could be that the Madonna and Child statues featuring the older child are meant to represent humanity's maturing; while Gwyn's canonical statues depict the child as perpetually infantile, representing Gwyn's desire to keep humanity under his thumb, the heretical group, hoping for the Age of Dark, depict the child (again representing humanity) as slightly more mature, growing into its destiny. It's the natural order of a child to grow up, which Gwyn is symbolically trying to stifle. An eternal childhood means eternal dependence upon a supposedly superior power: In the real world, the parent; in Dark Souls, Gwyn and his family.
This would be a great interpretation as to why the depictions of the older child are considered heretical. It suggests a level of equity with the gods that Gwyn would not abide symbolised.
And in our world kids usually love fire and the idea of what it can bring consume them. think Annie from lol, and only a lad. Also to have the mind of a child to enter heaven
Your cliffhangers are brilliant lol! TA, I know this may sound silly, because this is a channel about looking at random rocks in a video game, but you did make me appreciate the world around me more. Whether it be my home town, or visiting foreign countries, even video games, I have so much more appreciation for history, architecture, culture, wherever I go. It's like when I first learned an instrument and I could suddenly appreciate music 10x more. Thank you!
@tarnishedarchaeologist I appreciate greatly your channel and the work you've done for the Fromsoftware community. This is what i was longing for in a long time, in terms both of quality and input of knowledge, nor haughty nor patronizing neither sensationalist, just perfect for my thirst of knowledge. Thank you for your hard work. In addition, i was wondering if you were subscribed to Creganford's channel as well? He presents a deep analysis of tales, legends and myths through humanity's history (such as migration of ancient ethnies, confrontations and discoveries) and and it might provide you with other insights for your own work.
Why is there so many serpents in the dark lord ending. Makes me think Frampt is the odd one out. Also strange how Frampt “comes” to see you in firelink shrine like he is not confident you will choose his side without prodding - whereas Kaath just chills in the abyss waiting confidently that you will find him
Who said he's waiting for you specifically? Kaathe awaits whom he considers " worthy". He waited for the Four Kings, the people of Oolacile, and look how he speaks of them now: " They failed me. Every last one of them." He may try to flatter you, but you're no different. The moment you fail, he'll cast you away.
@@alexadelaide They are both sus. That is the point. Still, I like Frampt better personally; if only because he feels a little less condescending. " They failed me; every last one of them." " I am certain you will prove different. " Is that a threat? Because if it was, I'm tossing myself into the Fire just to spite this ###er.
@alyseleem2692 personally id take the one thats honest about having been disappointed by his previous underlings over the one that lies to you about how important you are to try to manipulate you into martyring yourself for a cause he clearly doesn't actually hold that much stake in of course, thats if i had to pick either of them like you do in the game. realistically theyre both scheming manipulators, one is just more up front about that fact
Something I found interesting regarding New Londo and Ariamis. The path to the abyss ends in a spiral staircase going downwards. The tower in Ariamis ends in a spiral staircase broken off leading upwards. Both looks suspiciously similar to one another. What if the Painted World isn't just related to New Londo. What if the Painted World IS the former lower reaches of New Londo sealed away with only the abyss to replace it?
Very neat idea, also, Priscilla could be the child depicted in the statue. She was locked up due to her lifehunt abilities to kill the gods themselves. Perhaps she was a false messiah that the gods felt they had to contain by any means possible
@@GeneralTaco155555a It's interesting to think about how much of Ariamis would have been part of that initial supplanting of the deepest reaches of new londo, and how many of the current applicants were left within to inhabit it, as a result of being similarly inconvenient. We know there are a bunch of cages left on the outskirts and even the interior area, as though they had been cast into the painted world after the fact.
That would require extensive assumptions about spatial displacement; ones we largely can't afford until Dark Souls 3. That said, there is one simpler solution: They participated in it's creation. The Painted World was created, supposedly, by a being named Ariamis, in what is most likely the same cyclical process we see later in Dark Souls 3. This, along with the present architecture and statues, indicates that this Ariamis could've been a denizen of New Londo. That is to say, whoever designed the Painted World did so with the intention of recalling a place they called " home", or was home to those that would enter it. Moreover, the Painting Guardians seem human, or are least human-sized. This would've likely taken place during the days of Gwyn's patronage of the Four Kings; the Painting is located in Anor Londo, and is said to be so old that it's guardians no longer remember what precisely it is they guard in it. In comparison, the DLC, and thus the rise of the Abyss and fall of the Four Kings, is stated by the developers to have happened three hundred years ago; a comparatively short amount of time.
@@GeneralTaco155555a Priscilla is not he child depicted in the statue. She is THE MOTHER ! Her prospective child would have both dragon and god blood, and would have the power to usurp the flame. This is the reason she was locked away, in order no to have children .
A theory: New Londo was flooded AFTER Gwyn linked the fire. If he were still around when the Four Kings turned, I imagine he would have wanted something of his back.
That's not a theory, but closer to fact. The events of the rise of the Abyss took place three hundred years before the main game, according to the developers. Also according to the developers, Gwyn linked the Fire about a millennium ago. In other words, by the time they fell to the Abyss, he had been dead for seven hundred years.
@@hirsutuscanis He's a Lord Of Cinder. A Lord Of Cinder is a being that once linked the Fire. They all die in the process, but can be summoned by the First Flame again when it feels it is in danger. This is what happened in Dark Souls 3; the bells and the Flame summoned multiple Lords Of Cinder from the past in order to help them in their emergency. All of them died to link the Fire, and all of them were ressurected to help do it again. The culmination of all this is the final boss; " The Soul Of Cinder". A combination of all the souls of those who sacrificed themselves to link the Fire. This being fights you, to both make you prove you are powerful enough to link the Fire, and to give you the final once of strength to do so, by dying at your hand, thus giving you their soul. However, by the time of Dark Souls 1, only one man has linked the Fire. Only one man can be summoned from the depths of the Flame's memory.... Gwyn. Lord Of Cinder. First of them all.
Yo, this dialogue from DS3 ringed city is critical to this concept. It is a full version of the prophecy you speak of. Suggest that you look at the architecture of the ringed city to round this series out. Many of us are by the fire forsaken. I speak of thine kind, and mine. Behold this city! We are kindred, belike two eyes which gaze upon the other. Fear not, the dark, my friend. And let the feast begin. One was a wayfaring knight, on an endless, forbidden search. Only the Abyss granted closure, if not reunion with his beloved. Fear not, the dark, my friend. And let the feast begin. One met the dark with learning. But in the end, learned his knowledge was wanting. The world began without knowledge, and without knowledge will it end. Dost not this ring clear and true? Fear not, the dark, my friend. And let the feast begin. One poor girl slew her own kin, but even so, was embraced, enveloped by the Abyss. Twas a comfort that neither moon nor sunless sky afforded her before. Fear not, the dark, my friend. And let the feast begin. And so, she lived in fear. Of the dark, of the things that gnawed at her flesh. And yet! The Abyss hath yet to produce any such creature! Fear not, the dark, my friend. And let the feast begin. And so, despite his weighty armour, he lived in fear. Of a delicate thing, little more than a girl. Where fire resideth, shadows twist and shrivel. But in the Abyss, there are shadows none. Fear not, the dark, my friend. And let the feast begin. Of all the Fingers, he alone was embraced by the Abyss. For he was human, and ne'er a grub. Fear not, the dark, my friend. And let the feast begin.”
Aren't these verses about the characters of the base game DSIII? Second verse: Hawkwood Third: Orbeck of Vinheim Fourth: Sirris Fifth: Irina of Carim Sixth: Eygon of Carim Seventh: Leonhard I may have misinterpreted any of them. Please, correct me if you think so. I'm unsure how much it is a prophecy, but it's curious nonetheless.
@@Saintgreene no, "wayfaring" and "beloved" means that in sequence it's more likely to be Alva's search for a cure to Saint Serreta's wasting (strange choice), Orbeck, Sirris, irina, Eygon, Leonhart. Coincidentally as well, Alva shows up twice in DS3 - the second time within the Ringed City.
@@Saintgreene not explicitly, they are built to have multiple interpretations apart from the most obvious imo. Doesn’t the third verse for instance also apply to big hat Logan, and knowledge. He intentionally turned Undead (turned to the dark) over a hundred years ago, and has been roaming Lordran, searching for more wisdom ever since and then turns mad at the end because knowledge wasn’t enough?
as someone with a history degree, i like this channel a lot. it is actually a better history channel than most other history channels, as instead of a bland retelling of history, it has an interesting thesis tied to it
Yaaayyyyyyyyy! The tarnished is back! And with amazing content. Dude you are something else you really are. Hall of fame lore god! You surpass everyone else
He reminds me of EpicNameBro back in the early days of Dark Souls when he was the go-to lore guy for that deep lore. If I want someone who explores some of the deeper esoteric secrets of these games, then nowadays it's definitely *The Tarnished Archaeologist and Hawkshaw* . The lore community is invigorated and held up by each video from these two titans of lore!
Still by far the best lore hunter around.. Since the first bloodborne video you have mentioned the discoveries of charred thermos, leaving me quite surprised at how deep you are able to dig
ey bro, I recommend you read lokey lores website, he actually checks dialogue according to the original JPN, looks at environmental storytelling and his takes make more sense
@@ONobreBabuino I'm currently reading Lokey's book and I'm quite disappointed. He makes some odd assumptions with too little evidence and never acknowledges that there might be other explanations to what he's approaching. He has some interesting ideas too, but there's just too much confirmation bias imo.
@@juromori really? what takes make you say that? to me his takes were cohesive and backed by a lot of stuff found ingame, plus, the book has HIS analyses which he did on ds1, why would he mention other creators in them? there is one thing which, while may sound odd, will let u understand a lot of what goes on in souls lore. take every game as miyazaki's "playground", each thing positioned in the place they are with intent, with some meaning behind them, and those things when understood will lead to a cohesive understanding of the story
I just watched the new Shadows of the Erdtree trailer, and the whole time I kept thinking "I can't wait to see what the molding on the doorways will tell us in this."
Amazing as always. One thing I was curious is in the role of the mother in this symbolism, it obviously is pretty important in the "source material" but you haven't really expanded on it on the Dark Souls context, a lot of people bring Velka into consideration but she's probably the most mysterious character of the franchise.
I don't think Velka is that mysterious. We know what she did and why, just not what happened to her. To me, Gwyndolin and Priscila are so much more mysterious because we know very little about them.
Personally I think the mother figure is a Fire Keeper. Every Fire Keeper we get to meet is female and their role would fit the mythos - giving up themselves and their freedom for the sake of the chosen undead. Firelink's statue is obvious, the church example once had a Fire Keeper, since there's a dead one. Anastacia seems to piously believe she's doing her part. The branches of the Firelink statue would fit too, like the Fire Keeper is tied to the fire.
I am so in love with this series because I've felt like these Velka statues have been ignored by lore seekers for the most part and they are arguably the most important part of the lore. THANK YOU!!
Ingward is an interesting character in this story along with the other two sealers especially the one who is teamed up with Lautrec. Ingward doesn’t forsake his duty of overseeing the containment of new londo while the others do seemingly going on to side with humans/undead in their own ways, perhaps revealing that they truly regretted destroying their own city although we don’t have a whole lot to go on with them. After all this is one of the only places in dark souls with ghosts and they seem to be the type that are incredibly vengeful, my own theory on them is that ghosts like this can only be produced and in such large numbers from an unforgivable mass travesty, perhaps a betrayal that keeps them lingering where they perished. Ingward has one more important detail surrounding his role when he recognizes not only the lord vessel in our possession but also he obviously knows what one has to do to obtain it and what someone would be doing with it. This combined with him not forsaking his duty and clearly being opposed to the darkwraiths would suggest that it was the pro linking the fire crowd that he and the other sealers served at the time of New Londo’s destruction. It shows just how polarizing the competing prophecies really were to the humans although we can see that all over too like in the way of white’s treatment of the undead. The humans were doing these terrible things to themselves.
That's a cool thought.:)One thing I can't get straight is that I feel ingward and the sealers are very crow themed and thus likely servents of Velka. But why then would they drown the city? I love this game it's so nice people still engage with it :)
@@tobiaslundqvist3209 If the Sealers were connected to Velka, perhaps they did it because the Darkwraiths were also committing heavy sins by going out and killing people to gain their Humanity. Their outfit might have been based off real-life Plague Doctors too. If you're interested, RickyTebbe has a very interesting theory about the one of the Sealers, Yulva, and how she might have eventually become known as the Goddess of Tears, Caitha by the time of Dark Souls II and III: ruclips.net/video/E9TRG2S0kDk/видео.html
So, this isn't exactly about the subject you have covered here but since you're bringing back Dark Souls Lore in a big way I think now is as good of a time as any to bring this up. I think that the pendant came from Lord of the Rings and is specifically a reference to Aragorn's ring or the ring of Barahir. There is no doubt that the game is at least partly inspired, at least stylistically, off of Lord of the Rings. Especially the intro cinematic but also in the language such as Anor being a cognate of sun in elvish. There are also various rings of incredible power in the game. Rings are one of the most powerful item types in the game, for instance. So with all of these powerful rings, it's somewhat unique that the pendant does absolutely nothing in the game. Now there can be 1000 reasons for this including but not limited to; they never came up with one, the did come up with one and it was removed or that it's 100% a troll item that's made to confound the type of obsessive player who can't just go along for the ride of a good game. However (ignoring any references to Berzerk to be sure) there is an item, a ring, in Lord of the rings that is strangely similar. Aragorn's ring or the ring of Barahir. The ring was described as the likeness of two serpents intertwined with eyes made of green jewels. The serpents met beneath a crown of golden flowers that one upheld and one devoured. This was the symbol of the House of Finarfin and worn by it's lord Finrod. The ring was later given to a lord of men of the house of Barahir as a gift of thanks and as part of sworn oath of protection to Barahir's kin. This ring would be handed down through generations and would every so often be given and re-given as a gift of utter sincerity, love, trust and benevolence. It was part of two major love stories between elves and men and was given by Aragorn to Arwen when they were wed. Again, the ring had no power like the one ring did but it represented the power of faith and love and goodwill. Things most precious and powerful, indeed. So to me, I think that is the point of the pendant. It is a useless thing in a way but also a thing with greater meaning than any object that was merely useful might have. Love the Dark Souls videos. I totally understand your need to both keep things fresh while we wait for Elden Ring DLC and also to get down to the roots of From Software's story telling. If anything, I at least think this will help provide a firmer foundation for your explorations of Bloodborne and Elden Ring.
As someone who hasn't beaten Dark Souls 1 yet, these videos are SO cool because I can watch the first 7 minutes without encountering any serious spoilers, but still gain SO much appreciation for the game. Inspires me to not give up, skeleton
Thank you for what you have done for the community. It's really amazing when the game has already come out for past over decade and people are still working with enthusiasm to speculate the lore of it. Yes, Kaathe and Frampt were never actually enemy to each other. They were more likely friends, and they all believe in The Prophecy of Chosen Undead. It's just that they have different ways in understanding The Prophecy. The Chosen Undead can either choose to link the First Flame and become The Lord Of Light or he/she can choose to accept the Dark and become the human's Dark Lord. That's why when The Chosen Undead decides to abandon the Flame, we see Frampt bows to the newborn Dark Lord, as like he not even mad about it, just accepting the fact that his friend, comrade and also his opposite and their followers were right from the beginning. To me, this is the most accurately way of explaining the story in Dark Souls 1. According to Carl Jung, one must accept the Light but also do not reject the Dark inside them, we must balance our existence between the Light and Dark, for human is able to do both Good and Bad. And to reject the Dark is to reject half of ourself. Because it is two faces of the same coin. Truly amazing your work is, one again thank you for your effort. I hope you keep up with the good work ❤
This is genuinely so cool and explains a lot. To me it always seemed intentional that the narrator says the word “chosen” when we’re being grabbed by a Raven, as if to imply that it was Velka’s will being carried out. The interpretation of the older child revealing a greater understanding of the plan (either the true one or the gods’ self-serving rewriting of it) aligns with the relative progress you’ve made in the story at this point in the game, too.
Hey TA. Wanted to echo what so many others have said - your work with these videos is excellent. I’m in the long process of writing a fantasy novel inspired in part by the Souls games, and these videos really challenge me to dig deeper and think about the nuance of world-building and drawing on real world archetypes. Thank you for making this series!
Except he succeeded completely. No; seriously. Why are people acting like this is some traditional hero story where the hero saw through these things? Gwyn won. DS2 and 3 exist to prove it. The cycle of Linking continued for thousands of years after his death. Non one ever suspected otherwise, and those who did were not desirous of an Age Of Dark.
Dude, every one of your videos is top tier. I can’t tell you how excited I get to see you drop a new post. Thanks for all the effort you put into these!!!
i'm left speechless everytime, and it feels like this makes sense. I always wonder if miyazaki intended this or if it's contrived due to the brilliant world building. Thank you TA!
This work is incredible, as always! It's always amazing to see inspiration, either direct or subconscious, that these devs took from real world history, art and infrastructure! Do you have any published work on real world archeology? I don't know much about your field, but your research, presentation and persuasive writing style is extremely professional!
I always thought that the chosen undead legend was created by Gwyn and adapted in New Londo after, but the idea that Gwyn was inspired by humanity's religion and created his own version to chorale the undead is an interesting thought, amazing video!
Yeah.... That is unlikely to be the case. Gwyn has been controlling the narrative of our race since the pygmies of the Ringed City; in fact, it could be said he is directly responsible for humans as we know them existing, as opposed to the pygmies: "Once, the Lord Of Light banished Dark, and all that stemmed from humanity. And Men assumed a fleeting form. These are the roots of our world." Thus, by the time New Londo was founded ( note the name), there would've been no such narrative of rebellion. Indeed, the temple you see, as well as the Four Kings arena, is above Manus' tomb ingame. The discovery of Manus, and all that entailed, including the events regarding the Abyss, happened only three hundred years ago. Seven hundred years after the death of Gwyn. ( The developers are the source of this timeline; specifically, commenting that the events of Oolacile happened 300 years ago, and that the Linking of the Fire by Gwyn, as well the events regarding the Chaos Flame before he linked it, happened approximately a millennium ago) As such, yes, the legend of the Chosen Undead is indeed a godly creation; this variation on it seems to have only begun long after it's original inception.
@@alyseleem2692 i also still believe the legend was a creation of the gods, but it's fun to tinker with different theories sometimes, i too always a wondered about different ststues in New londo
@@TheodoroDML I have my own theory on them. If you come in from the gates of the city, you may find a Red Tearstone Ring; a symbol, as we later find out, of Caitha. The woman in the statue seems to be weeping black tears, all while trying to comfort a confused, wide-eyed child. Whilst this may or may not be a direct representation of Caitha, the message is the same; the statues do not denote heresy so much as grief. As for why they would be grieving, the Four Kings arena lies almost directly above Manus' tomb. Another possible reason is Gwyn's passing, or Priscilla's imprisonment; Caitha is not particular, and likely weeps for all of them equally. The Painted World is guarded in Anor Londo itself, and is a sacred relic of the gods; to call it heretical( referring to the video) is a bit preposterous. Rather, it is a " haven" in Miyazaki's words; a place where they allow things otherwise Forlorn and rejected to enter and not be disturbed. A safe solution to any problem. Gael can be seen praying to a statue of a woman covering her face, presumably weeping, calling her "Mother of the Forlorn". This is also likely Caitha; as a goddess of grief and loneliness, her role perfectly fits with comforting the Forlorn and their like. She is much closer to being their patron than Velka ever was. (I want to make this clear; I do not believe for a second that Caitha is Velka. Their roles are directly opposed, as Velka is a goddess of punishment,and requires active payment for "salvation". This directly goes against Caitha's ethos; even if both have dabbled in the Dark, their work remains different. In particular, black flames are said by Cornyx to require a "deep sorrow" to use; I believe the same is true of many Dark miracles and sorceries alike. Caitha's domain is sorrow; thus, she naturally has a connection to the Dark,as seen with her Chime)
Low poly assets have a very special place in this kind of content: They procure the same exercise as some artifacts do in actual archaeology, where some finds are either severely eroded, or were crafted in low detail for ine reason or another :)
Excellent as always. I'm still standing by my theory that the primordial serpants (ie dragons) tricked gywn into creating the darksign and humans into creating the abyss. They understood both routes would give us the warped world of ds3. Notice how hollows turn into trees and time itself warps.
Wow these revelations are quite astonishing. I am not sure if prior lore hunters have seen this video but they should because I feel a lot of these, if not new findings have a lot more clear reasoning using our history as a guiding post.
Always on fire, TA. I love how quickly you upturn established lore on these games by just saying “don’t overthink it, it’s the same monomyth we see everywhere in history and literature, stop thinking so hard about Velka” [assertion mine]
This video blew me away at the end! I was ready to correct you about something I thought you got wrong about something you said in the Jesus parts. I should have had more faith lol tho, because you addressed it and got it correct but you were just building a great story. 👏 👏 👏 🙇♂️
I am so happy that you have decided to dive into the other parts of the Fromsoft grim dark library. The lore community space tends to feel so negative and stagnant with creators clinging to item descriptions and translation localizations as the only context of story. If I had my own channel I’d gladly interview you to get your thoughts on your process. Keep creating. Shake up the ‘established’ fan base and creator pool.
Great work as always! FWIW the structure you identify as the Abyss-enclosing temple strongly resembles stepwells of the less elaborate variety with just a helical staircase descending down a cylindrical passage into water that often appears very black from the lack of light getting down there.
Also I always assumed the reason there's Four Kings is because of the four heavenly kings in buddhism, who occupy the lowest part of the world of the devas on Mount Sumeru where they protect the dharma against asuras.
A thought: what if the mother and child statue isn't depicting a school-age child, but an adult human. A descendant of the furtive pygmy, who would have been much shorter than whatever race the gods are. It could be a depiction of a taller god nurturing a pygmy who will one day take their place. This might be a stretch, but it may be worth looking into the possibility.
Tbf, having more than one king at a time isn't completely unheard of, though I've never heard of more than two IRL (the spartans, iirc). Co-emperors were also a thing.
IIrc, Lokey has (and they’re longtime theories) the Madonna statues depict Velka and Priscilla. I’d love to hear you directly analyze that alternative.
They probably don’t depict them one to one. They probably reference that there’s a mother who helps safeguard her child. It’s probably why Velka is in charge of sin and forgives it. All undead sin and to be lifted of it is similar to a mother protecting her child. It’s designed to be a symbol for forlorn undead to rally around. Similar to a cross. That’s why they protect Priscilla she is their opportunity to become closer to the goddess who looks out for them by acting in a manner similar.
I started playing dark souls for the first time a few months ago, on PC, using Luke Ross' mod for VR, on a cheap outdated VR headset with the Age of Sunlight overhaul installed. DSR is the second best game I've played, next to Elden Ring. In VR they are both mind blowing. I'm thankful our paths aligned ( I'm playing dsr, you are exposing it) because there is just enough weird in the games to put me off, if it weren't for the knowledge that these things have real world inspirations. Now peering into the brilliance that is FromSoft, which Tarnished Archaeology have kindly unveiled to gleam forth upon us, I make my way to Lord Gwyn :)
Is the teaser at the end that the Mother-Child statue has been covered over in the Cathedral of the Deep? Absolutely cannot wait for the DS3 video(s). As great as DS1 is it’s very interesting to see how much more adept From are at developing and utilizing the strata concept and iconography of these civilizations as their games progress.
I've been watching DS1 lore videos for a decade and it's great to see people are still at it, still coming up with strong new theories. I'm wondering, in this theory, what exactly is the origin of the Undead? Did Gwyn and Nito create them intentionally to keep humans down and turn them into bonfire fuel? Or was it an accidental consequence of extending the age of fire too long? Or are undead just the natural form of the descendants of the furtive pygmy?
My first thought is that if the temple encircling the Abyss can be read as a ring around a sacred space, then it may also be a literal recreation of the Dark Sigil.
I think another big part of New Londo that is often glossed over is that Symbol on top of the first Temple you run through, where you eventually drain the water and can get the Ember. It's the same symbol that's used in the Undead Parish, also linking both of the areas. I always believed that it was a Light-Based temple before the Kings thought up of their Plan. I thought the drop into the Abyss was the kings' way of dealing with the undead, sacrificing themselves back into the Dark so the others could go on living in peace. I thought it matched the Ring of Sacrifice trope and dealing with their own "sin."
Ive often wiahed there were some TA videos for kingsfield but you did mention the low poly count here and thays a great point. Nvm, but thank you so much for time and effort here, very much enjoying the TA analysis of older titles.
You absolutely NEED to dissect Dark Souls 2. What we dont understand about the series is deeply rooted in that game. Many locations like heide, iron keep, drangleic castle, tseldora and aldias keep have to be analyzed...
Man I love this channel, I always like to hear irl connections or marks in our history. Probably will forget because all of the past is always unnecessary to know about but I appreciate people who take interest in those things and I'll gladly listen
I think it's awful that you guys, being the very best content makers in the whole internet, take so long to make new videos! You should be releasing like at least 5 a day so we can watch it non-stop!!! xD Jokes aside, thanks for these! You guys are just awesome!!!!
It's refreshing to see you back. That said, I disagree with at least half of what you said. Let's begin with this, right out the bat; There was likely never a point where the gods weren't in control of the prophecy, with the only exceptions being the Serpents, and more importantly, the period after Gwyn's death. New Londo itself, as well as all human cities thereafter, is a successor to a state already pacified by the gods. The Ringed City. The people of New Londo weren't pygmies; merely Undead. They looked like, and lived like, the average man, in contrast to the exceptionally Hollow-looking pygmies themselves, who even in their own statues are depicted as Hollow as we see them at the very end of time itself. As it's name suggests, New Londo was client and successor to Anor Londo. And that was true since it's inception, for even the Ringed City itself was under similar dominion, if begrudgingly to some of it's inhabitants. The myth of Man's ascension is recorded, if we are to believe,on a Titanite Slab; the Titanite Slabs were the work of a god. The Chosen Undead has always been an ideal, born from the thoughts of the gods. As such, the stratum of the sunken temple likely isn't before, but after, the building of Firelink Shrine. Why am I so certain of it? Do you know what lies below the temple? Both it, and the Four Kings' arena,are almost directly above Manus' grave. In a word, they weren't worshipping "the Abyss". They were worshipping it's source. And he was clearly not happy about it. " Seduced by a dark serpent or no, they awoke that thing themselves, and drove it mad. One's demise is always one's own making." This connects, also, to the fall of Oolacile, which likely happened in conjuction with these events; Ingward speaks as if Artorias yet hunts Darkwraiths abound outside New Londo. Evidently, it was an ongoing affair, ending in Artorias' death, and, when all hope was lost in his return, the flood of New Londo. So, that leads to the question: Why? Why did the supposedly wise Four Kings take part in so foolish an endeavour as the waking of Manus himself? What did they expect to come from their prayers? Why abandon their loyalty to Gwyn? Here's a question: When did the fall of Oolacile, and by extension New Londo, take place? Three hundred years ago; seven hundred years after the first linking of the Fire..... And the death of Gwyn. - Seven hundred years. Seven hundred years of Gwyn's absence. We all think what we think of the man, but could you imagine how it felt to his most loyal followers? Undead, living centuries without their Lord? It is reflected in the statues, too; I believe you overstated their heresy, for the Painted World remains a creation sanctioned by the gods and present within Anor Londo; they only allow the unwanted to enter there at their own pleasure. It is no prison, but, according to Miyazaki, a "haven"; a hiding place, one endorsed by the pantheon. Nonetheless, let us focus; How do the statues reflect this? Look well; the woman's hollow eyes shed wretched tears of black, as she holds her child in a gesture of comfort. The child, evidently, is confused. What strengthened this impression in my mind was what I found outside the city''s gates; A Red Tearstone Ring. A symbol of Caitha; Goddess Of Tears. Now, I won't pretend that the statue depicts Caitha specifically, or that the developers even had a specific name like "Caitha" by Dark Souls 1, but even without her existence, the concept checks out. The statue is of mourning; the temple is a temple of tears. A mausoleum. Whom does the woman and her child mourn? Who is the father missing from this picture? For whom do the Four Kings stand silent at the base? Gwyn? Manus? Both? The third is entirely possible; after all, nothing we know truly indicates either of them to have been enemies in life. Indeed, instead of pursuing his "duty" as Dark Lord, Manus was content to sleep; a course Kaathe certainly didn't approve of, and sought to correct. The Four Kings are corrupt, and yet, the shard they recieved from Lord Gwyn remains pure; blazing as it did when they recieved it. Why show such reverence, if they have abandoned their lord's vision? For indeed, Kaathe does not slither among them, but hides deep beneath, only emerging for.... You. Is he so quick to abandon them for you? Or... " They failed me; every last one of them. They were strong, but could not see the truth. I am certain that you will prove different." What " truth" could they not see, old friend? Is it perhaps, that Flame must fade, and that only Dark must remain? _ The prophecy of the Dark Lord was introduced in a time of grief and desperation; the Fire faded once more, and Gwyn was there to protect his people no more. None of the Four Kings possessed as much courage as they did wisdom; all they sought was answers from those before them, be it Gwyn or Manus; the shrine above, or the tomb below. There had to be a way, they thought, to both sustain and reconcile this conundrum; to sustain the Fire, and yet pacify the Dark that threatened it. There had to be, or else who among them four may be tossed to follow their sire? In entertaining these questions, and in their desire for a third solution, they found Manus. And in Manus, they found their doom. They would not be the last, and if one were to be so bold, they may not have been the first. Notes: 1.The prophecy is the same, as you said; in fact, there likely isn't even a variation in text. If we are to take the famed Titanite Slab translations, all they say is; "Man will rise; cold will return." Man rises, but should he do so as Lord Of Cinder or Dark? Cold and Dark return, and we see them return, but who says they must stay? Who says the Fire must fade? Indeed, such openness to interpretation may be the reason why Gwyn's plans were so successful; after all, we know they succeeded. Otherwise, how would Drangleic exist? Or Lothric? 2. The Four Kings were likely kings in truth, if only in the most esoteric sense as seen across other ages. A "monarch" is defined by the strength of their soul; by sharing a single great soul of power, the Legion Of Farron secured their mandate as Lords. They were, effectively, the same person; their unity is assured by their unity in spirit. Literally. Edit: Final note: For those confused by the timeline, it is based on interviews with the developers in which they state that the DLC happened 300 years ago, and that Gwyn linking the Fire happened a millennium ago. Based on this, there are about seven hundred years between the rise of the Abyss and Gwyn's sacrifice.
You state things as fact here that aren't supported by evidence, and then build on that shaky foundation. I'm sure SOME of this is correct but until you weed out the unsupported conclusions it's just messy.
@@DichotomousRex Do you mean the timeline? You're right it's not ingame; instead, it's from the developers' interviews. The DLC is said by them to have happened about 300 years before the main story; in comparison, Gwyn is said to have linked the Fire a millennium ago. My calculations, and conclusions thereof, were based on these two statements; if the Abyss arose three hundred years ago, then there's about seven hundred years between it and Gwyn's death. If you mean the part about the Titanite Slabs, I'll admit, it's shaky, but still; not necessary for the theory in general.
I wonder if the child/adult issue with the Jesus story lines up with Miquellas attempts at becoming an adult. Maybe he needs to in order to become a messiah for the lands between
In my opinion, the Deep and the Profaned Flame are a reference to Cioran's Sacred/Profane dichotomy. The Deep represents an Abyss that has been profaned by prolonged stagnancy. The Profaned Flame represents the First Flame profaned by the Flame of Chaos (hence also the dental resemblance between Pontiff Beasts and Centipede Demon/ Gaping Dragon).
I'm not sure about the profaned flame being corrupted by chaos. Given that the profaned coal doesn't grant chaos infusion nor do black knights weapons grant bonus damage against enemies associacted with the profaned flame.
Really cool as always. May I suggest you to watch Hawkshaw's video? He too thinks the kindling prophecy is a fabrication, with deep analysis (he's the best analyst i know of DS1)
The mother statue must be representative of Velka and how she guided our journey, or perhaps the Furtive Pygmy as our forebearer as Kaathe describes. Maybe both?
Also considering how much the Ringed City reveals about Gwyn's relationship with the ancient humans, I think New Londo absolutely kept their worship of the Abyss a secret. And that's not to mention how New Londo probably drew from their former neighboring kingdom of Oolacile in a lot of ways.
@@GrandPaladinTyrux A better explanation would be that they began it after Gwyn's death. The events of Oolacile occurred, according to the developers, three hundred years ago; in comparison, Gwyn linked the Fire a millennium ago. During that interim of seven hundred years, the leader they were loyal to was absent. That gives them plenty of time to renovate the place, if you will. Also, fun fact; the temple itself, as well as the Four Kings' arena, is almost directly above Manus' arena. As such, yes, I'm pretty sure they built this place around the time of his discovery. I personally think the statue, if it is of anyone, is of Caitha. At least, retroactively. A Red Tearstone Ring lies outside the city; the statue itself is weeping black tears, if my eyes do not decieve me; it's only other place where we see it is the home of the Forlorn and desperate. Whom is she mourning, I wonder?
@@erichowens85Largely, yes. Other people cite the Dark Ember and the Crow People, but the latter's connection to Velka is cut content, and the former doesn't mention Velka at all, though she is a goddess of the occult, and the ember can be used to make Occult weapons. There's pretty much...nothing else. Except maybe the Pardoner Set, but it's former wearer is now a corpse, so...
I have a pet theory which I think fits well with your most recent video, that the nature of humanity is not so much pure darkness and undeath as many seem to believe but rather that the Lords co-opted fire and used it against humanity. Humanity was drawn to the fire and was a part of the true age of fire, but was depressed by Gwyn and the chosen undead stories are indeed being used to manipulate us, but nonetheless wedding fire die To spite gwyn isn’t the right answer I always choose to link the fire and keep it alive in spite of the attempts to trick me into it because that’s what I think humanity is fighting against the dying of the light and against the lie that there is nothing but darkness for us
One thing I hope you do touch on in the analyses of the narrative surrounding the linking of the flame failing to bring salvation is the story told on Dark Souls 2. People sleep on DS2 because of its status as the black sheep in the series, but DS2 basically sets up the entire plot of DS3. By its very existence, DS2 reveals that no matter what the Chosen Undead decided to do, the cycle of an undead needing to relink the flame to stave off the growing Dark repeats itself. DS2 is what reveals it AS a cycle in the first place, and Aldia, Scholar of the First Sin, is searching for a way to break the cycle "beyond light and dark". The "first sin" in this mythology is Gwyn's taking of the flame and suppressing the Dark (some have argued it's linking the flame by sacrificing himself, but regardless, Gwyn's perpetuation of the age of fire is considered a sin by Aldia). The suppression of the human Dark is repeatedly suggested to be a bad thing by DS2, and DS3 bears out this narrative choice by revealing the firelinking cycle has repeated so many times throughout history that it's beginning to fail (which, ultimately, if you try to do it, it does). Like a bad rechargeable battery, the fire is withering out; meanwhile, the Dark Soul of humanity has festered for so long it's begun to mutate and lash out. Aldia is proven right, and the only way to truly resolve the problem is to integrate the flame and the Dark to go beyond both. We see this in two endings; the Lord of Hollows usurps the Fire to claim it for humanity, integrating it with their own Dark Soul. And The Painter paints a new world using both flame to burn the old one away, and the blood of the Dark Soul as a catalyst for the new one; with the Dark Soul being inviolate, the new world ought to be immune from the entropic effects experienced the other worlds, finally allowing all who choose to live in it in peace (Or the world she paints is the world of Bloodborne, as a world literally born by the power of blood, as is my personal headcanon, but that's neither here nor there). DS2 needs to be talked about when talking about the wider series.
I like how, at the end, you went into the idea that the whole prophecy was made up, at least partially. I like the theory that the version told to us by Oscar was made up by Gwyndolin and Frampt, due to the language it uses. What do you think of that theory, if you've heard it? And what do you make of the lack of Gwyn- and Fire-centric imagery around New Londo? The Four Kings did get parts of Gwyn's soul, and the elevator leads up to Firelink Shrine, so firelinking must've been a prime concern for the city at its inception. But the idea that the city was always, at least in part, open to Dark worship would explain why it was made underground, away from the Sun's sight. Do you think they destroyed all their iconography and built the new temple to the Abyss only after their meeting with Frampt, or that both views were present from the very beginning? Also, you call the big building in New Londo a cathedral, but I thought it was a mansion? It has a fireplace and all.
Let's put this into perspective: The temple, and the Four Kings' arena, are almost directly atop Manus' tomb ingame. The events surrounding Manus and Oolacile, as well as New Londo by extension, happened three hundred years ago, according to the developers. From the same source, we know that Gwyn linked the Fire about a millennium ago. In other words, any such focus on the Dark, the Abyss, and Manus himself ( who was a recent discovery at the time) occurred during the interim of seven hundred years between Gwyn's death and the rise of the Abyss. It simply doesn't make sense otherwise. How would the temple be dedicated to the Abyss if the Abyss produced by Manus did not yet exist?
It's a pretty common theory that the prophecy was made up, Lokey Lore presents it as being a falsification too iirc Personally I definitely believe the prophecy was made up, it's just too coincidental, and it doesn't seem to hold much weight considering you can choose to become the dark Lord I mean, the first requirement is that you start at an undead asylum. Considering the way of white's persecution of the undead, and the asylum being labeled the "Northern" undead asylum, there are likely multiple asylums that exist around lordran. So, many undead will end up in an asylum before reaching lordran. It's positioned as being coincidental and meaningful that the prophecy starts there, and yet it's a very easy condition to fulfill, most likely intentionally, to give many people the false impression that they are part of some grand, predestined journey to save the world. I mean, it's pretty overt that the gods are constructing a narrative to make you feel like a hero so that you will do whatever they want (Kaathe does it too), and we already know the gods are lying to you because of fake Gwynevere. So I would say it's much more likely to be a made up prophecy
There is a staircase in the painted world that goes up into nothing. Perhaps the entirety of the painted world or at least that part made up what the abyss is now (was connected to the new londo staircase that takes you down there) and the abyss replaced it because it's literally a removed space.
So, like the 2nd chapter of this video suggests, this can be the tale of a Dark Messiah. It's certainly a tale of Might and, if you want it to be, a tale of Magic.
11:14
Best part of being an archaeologist is getting to use 'Antediluvian' naturally in a conversation
Or a big World of Darkness/Vampire the Masquerade fan!
Darkest Dungeon, too!@@embargovenom9948
He really doesn't know anything about actual history. 11:50 he is saying it makes no sense to have "four kings" of the same place, clearly having no idea about the tetrarch system of the Roman Empire where there were indeed literally 4 kings.
@@michaelfetter5413So because he didn't mention your hyper-specific example, he knows nothing about history? Lol. That's a pretty huge leap.
King is usually singular and associated with monarchy. Clearly that is why he said it wouldn't make sense. But he said "leaders", which would include kings... so I really don't understand your point. The people you're referring to weren't even called kings. They were Emperor and Co-Emperor. So you're arguing semantics, and doing so imprecisely.
But even if he didn't know about a specific historical topic, it doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about history. Like dude... there is a shit ton of history lol. Nearly no one is going to know all of it.
@@been_rly_n2_paragliding_latelyIt's not at all a "hyperspecific" example. Cope severely.
It could be that the Madonna and Child statues featuring the older child are meant to represent humanity's maturing; while Gwyn's canonical statues depict the child as perpetually infantile, representing Gwyn's desire to keep humanity under his thumb, the heretical group, hoping for the Age of Dark, depict the child (again representing humanity) as slightly more mature, growing into its destiny. It's the natural order of a child to grow up, which Gwyn is symbolically trying to stifle. An eternal childhood means eternal dependence upon a supposedly superior power: In the real world, the parent; in Dark Souls, Gwyn and his family.
This would be a great interpretation as to why the depictions of the older child are considered heretical. It suggests a level of equity with the gods that Gwyn would not abide symbolised.
And in our world kids usually love fire and the idea of what it can bring consume them. think Annie from lol, and only a lad. Also to have the mind of a child to enter heaven
Your cliffhangers are brilliant lol! TA, I know this may sound silly, because this is a channel about looking at random rocks in a video game, but you did make me appreciate the world around me more. Whether it be my home town, or visiting foreign countries, even video games, I have so much more appreciation for history, architecture, culture, wherever I go. It's like when I first learned an instrument and I could suddenly appreciate music 10x more. Thank you!
This is the true goal of the channel. Thanks for such a nice compliment.
@@tarnishedarchaeologistwe love u TA
@@tarnishedarchaeologist much love dude. You constantly remind me whats so good about history both real and made up❤
@tarnishedarchaeologist I appreciate greatly your channel and the work you've done for the Fromsoftware community. This is what i was longing for in a long time, in terms both of quality and input of knowledge, nor haughty nor patronizing neither sensationalist, just perfect for my thirst of knowledge. Thank you for your hard work.
In addition, i was wondering if you were subscribed to Creganford's channel as well? He presents a deep analysis of tales, legends and myths through humanity's history (such as migration of ancient ethnies, confrontations and discoveries) and and it might provide you with other insights for your own work.
Yea man learning about funerary customs has surprisingly come up a few times now in real life
Why is there so many serpents in the dark lord ending. Makes me think Frampt is the odd one out. Also strange how Frampt “comes” to see you in firelink shrine like he is not confident you will choose his side without prodding - whereas Kaath just chills in the abyss waiting confidently that you will find him
Well he is the "king seeker" not the "dark stalker"
Who said he's waiting for you specifically?
Kaathe awaits whom he considers " worthy". He waited for the Four Kings, the people of Oolacile, and look how he speaks of them now:
" They failed me. Every last one of them."
He may try to flatter you, but you're no different. The moment you fail, he'll cast you away.
Still makes Frampt seem sussy when you think about it
@@alexadelaide They are both sus. That is the point.
Still, I like Frampt better personally; if only because he feels a little less condescending.
" They failed me; every last one of them."
" I am certain you will prove different. "
Is that a threat? Because if it was, I'm tossing myself into the Fire just to spite this ###er.
@alyseleem2692 personally id take the one thats honest about having been disappointed by his previous underlings over the one that lies to you about how important you are to try to manipulate you into martyring yourself for a cause he clearly doesn't actually hold that much stake in
of course, thats if i had to pick either of them like you do in the game. realistically theyre both scheming manipulators, one is just more up front about that fact
Something I found interesting regarding New Londo and Ariamis. The path to the abyss ends in a spiral staircase going downwards. The tower in Ariamis ends in a spiral staircase broken off leading upwards. Both looks suspiciously similar to one another. What if the Painted World isn't just related to New Londo. What if the Painted World IS the former lower reaches of New Londo sealed away with only the abyss to replace it?
Very neat idea, also, Priscilla could be the child depicted in the statue.
She was locked up due to her lifehunt abilities to kill the gods themselves. Perhaps she was a false messiah that the gods felt they had to contain by any means possible
Very interesting thoughts there!
@@GeneralTaco155555a It's interesting to think about how much of Ariamis would have been part of that initial supplanting of the deepest reaches of new londo, and how many of the current applicants were left within to inhabit it, as a result of being similarly inconvenient. We know there are a bunch of cages left on the outskirts and even the interior area, as though they had been cast into the painted world after the fact.
That would require extensive assumptions about spatial displacement; ones we largely can't afford until Dark Souls 3. That said, there is one simpler solution:
They participated in it's creation.
The Painted World was created, supposedly, by a being named Ariamis, in what is most likely the same cyclical process we see later in Dark Souls 3. This, along with the present architecture and statues, indicates that this Ariamis could've been a denizen of New Londo. That is to say, whoever designed the Painted World did so with the intention of recalling a place they called " home", or was home to those that would enter it. Moreover, the Painting Guardians seem human, or are least human-sized.
This would've likely taken place during the days of Gwyn's patronage of the Four Kings; the Painting is located in Anor Londo, and is said to be so old that it's guardians no longer remember what precisely it is they guard in it. In comparison, the DLC, and thus the rise of the Abyss and fall of the Four Kings, is stated by the developers to have happened three hundred years ago; a comparatively short amount of time.
@@GeneralTaco155555a Priscilla is not he child depicted in the statue. She is THE MOTHER ! Her prospective child would have both dragon and god blood, and would have the power to usurp the flame. This is the reason she was locked away, in order no to have children .
God I freaking love this channel, using archaeology as a way to decipher the world of soulsborne games is pure genius!
Amen 🙏🏼
A theory: New Londo was flooded AFTER Gwyn linked the fire. If he were still around when the Four Kings turned, I imagine he would have wanted something of his back.
That's not a theory, but closer to fact.
The events of the rise of the Abyss took place three hundred years before the main game, according to the developers. Also according to the developers, Gwyn linked the Fire about a millennium ago.
In other words, by the time they fell to the Abyss, he had been dead for seven hundred years.
@@alyseleem2692 So when we meet and fight Gwyn he's dead? What animates him?
@@hirsutuscanis He's a Lord Of Cinder.
A Lord Of Cinder is a being that once linked the Fire. They all die in the process, but can be summoned by the First Flame again when it feels it is in danger.
This is what happened in Dark Souls 3; the bells and the Flame summoned multiple Lords Of Cinder from the past in order to help them in their emergency. All of them died to link the Fire, and all of them were ressurected to help do it again.
The culmination of all this is the final boss; " The Soul Of Cinder". A combination of all the souls of those who sacrificed themselves to link the Fire. This being fights you, to both make you prove you are powerful enough to link the Fire, and to give you the final once of strength to do so, by dying at your hand, thus giving you their soul.
However, by the time of Dark Souls 1, only one man has linked the Fire. Only one man can be summoned from the depths of the Flame's memory....
Gwyn. Lord Of Cinder.
First of them all.
Yo, this dialogue from DS3 ringed city is critical to this concept. It is a full version of the prophecy you speak of. Suggest that you look at the architecture of the ringed city to round this series out.
Many of us are by the fire forsaken.
I speak of thine kind, and mine.
Behold this city! We are kindred, belike two eyes which gaze upon the other.
Fear not, the dark, my friend.
And let the feast begin.
One was a wayfaring knight, on an endless, forbidden search.
Only the Abyss granted closure, if not reunion with his beloved.
Fear not, the dark, my friend.
And let the feast begin.
One met the dark with learning. But in the end, learned his knowledge was wanting.
The world began without knowledge, and without knowledge will it end.
Dost not this ring clear and true?
Fear not, the dark, my friend.
And let the feast begin.
One poor girl slew her own kin, but even so, was embraced, enveloped by the Abyss.
Twas a comfort that neither moon nor sunless sky afforded her before.
Fear not, the dark, my friend.
And let the feast begin.
And so, she lived in fear. Of the dark, of the things that gnawed at her flesh.
And yet! The Abyss hath yet to produce any such creature!
Fear not, the dark, my friend.
And let the feast begin.
And so, despite his weighty armour, he lived in fear. Of a delicate thing, little more than a girl.
Where fire resideth, shadows twist and shrivel. But in the Abyss, there are shadows none.
Fear not, the dark, my friend.
And let the feast begin.
Of all the Fingers, he alone was embraced by the Abyss.
For he was human, and ne'er a grub.
Fear not, the dark, my friend.
And let the feast begin.”
GUYS LET HIM COOK!!! 🔥🔥🔥
Aren't these verses about the characters of the base game DSIII?
Second verse: Hawkwood
Third: Orbeck of Vinheim
Fourth: Sirris
Fifth: Irina of Carim
Sixth: Eygon of Carim
Seventh: Leonhard
I may have misinterpreted any of them. Please, correct me if you think so.
I'm unsure how much it is a prophecy, but it's curious nonetheless.
@@Saintgreene no, "wayfaring" and "beloved" means that in sequence it's more likely to be Alva's search for a cure to Saint Serreta's wasting (strange choice), Orbeck, Sirris, irina, Eygon, Leonhart. Coincidentally as well, Alva shows up twice in DS3 - the second time within the Ringed City.
@@Saintgreene not explicitly, they are built to have multiple interpretations apart from the most obvious imo. Doesn’t the third verse for instance also apply to big hat Logan, and knowledge. He intentionally turned Undead (turned to the dark) over a hundred years ago, and has been roaming Lordran, searching for more wisdom ever since and then turns mad at the end because knowledge wasn’t enough?
as someone with a history degree, i like this channel a lot. it is actually a better history channel than most other history channels, as instead of a bland retelling of history, it has an interesting thesis tied to it
Yaaayyyyyyyyy! The tarnished is back! And with amazing content. Dude you are something else you really are. Hall of fame lore god! You surpass everyone else
He reminds me of EpicNameBro back in the early days of Dark Souls when he was the go-to lore guy for that deep lore. If I want someone who explores some of the deeper esoteric secrets of these games, then nowadays it's definitely *The Tarnished Archaeologist and Hawkshaw* . The lore community is invigorated and held up by each video from these two titans of lore!
@@KitsuneShapeShifteri miss ENB
@@joeclarke7982 Me too buddy :) Those were some good times
@@KitsuneShapeShifter I miss the the old school guys to. If you like bloodbrone I don't know if you ever heard of Redgrave? He was amazing content
@@Andy-rf5jx Yes I remember Redgrave, he was awesome too! :) Bloodborne is still my favorite game of all time :3
Still by far the best lore hunter around..
Since the first bloodborne video you have mentioned the discoveries of charred thermos, leaving me quite surprised at how deep you are able to dig
ey bro, I recommend you read lokey lores website, he actually checks dialogue according to the original JPN, looks at environmental storytelling and his takes make more sense
@@ONobreBabuino I'm currently reading Lokey's book and I'm quite disappointed. He makes some odd assumptions with too little evidence and never acknowledges that there might be other explanations to what he's approaching. He has some interesting ideas too, but there's just too much confirmation bias imo.
@@juromori really? what takes make you say that? to me his takes were cohesive and backed by a lot of stuff found ingame, plus, the book has HIS analyses which he did on ds1, why would he mention other creators in them?
there is one thing which, while may sound odd, will let u understand a lot of what goes on in souls lore. take every game as miyazaki's "playground", each thing positioned in the place they are with intent, with some meaning behind them, and those things when understood will lead to a cohesive understanding of the story
I just watched the new Shadows of the Erdtree trailer, and the whole time I kept thinking "I can't wait to see what the molding on the doorways will tell us in this."
Amazing as always. One thing I was curious is in the role of the mother in this symbolism, it obviously is pretty important in the "source material" but you haven't really expanded on it on the Dark Souls context, a lot of people bring Velka into consideration but she's probably the most mysterious character of the franchise.
I don't think Velka is that mysterious. We know what she did and why, just not what happened to her. To me, Gwyndolin and Priscila are so much more mysterious because we know very little about them.
Personally I think the mother figure is a Fire Keeper. Every Fire Keeper we get to meet is female and their role would fit the mythos - giving up themselves and their freedom for the sake of the chosen undead. Firelink's statue is obvious, the church example once had a Fire Keeper, since there's a dead one. Anastacia seems to piously believe she's doing her part. The branches of the Firelink statue would fit too, like the Fire Keeper is tied to the fire.
I am so in love with this series because I've felt like these Velka statues have been ignored by lore seekers for the most part and they are arguably the most important part of the lore. THANK YOU!!
Ingward is an interesting character in this story along with the other two sealers especially the one who is teamed up with Lautrec. Ingward doesn’t forsake his duty of overseeing the containment of new londo while the others do seemingly going on to side with humans/undead in their own ways, perhaps revealing that they truly regretted destroying their own city although we don’t have a whole lot to go on with them. After all this is one of the only places in dark souls with ghosts and they seem to be the type that are incredibly vengeful, my own theory on them is that ghosts like this can only be produced and in such large numbers from an unforgivable mass travesty, perhaps a betrayal that keeps them lingering where they perished. Ingward has one more important detail surrounding his role when he recognizes not only the lord vessel in our possession but also he obviously knows what one has to do to obtain it and what someone would be doing with it. This combined with him not forsaking his duty and clearly being opposed to the darkwraiths would suggest that it was the pro linking the fire crowd that he and the other sealers served at the time of New Londo’s destruction. It shows just how polarizing the competing prophecies really were to the humans although we can see that all over too like in the way of white’s treatment of the undead. The humans were doing these terrible things to themselves.
That's a cool thought.:)One thing I can't get straight is that I feel ingward and the sealers are very crow themed and thus likely servents of Velka. But why then would they drown the city? I love this game it's so nice people still engage with it :)
@@tobiaslundqvist3209 If the Sealers were connected to Velka, perhaps they did it because the Darkwraiths were also committing heavy sins by going out and killing people to gain their Humanity. Their outfit might have been based off real-life Plague Doctors too.
If you're interested, RickyTebbe has a very interesting theory about the one of the Sealers, Yulva, and how she might have eventually become known as the Goddess of Tears, Caitha by the time of Dark Souls II and III: ruclips.net/video/E9TRG2S0kDk/видео.html
So, this isn't exactly about the subject you have covered here but since you're bringing back Dark Souls Lore in a big way I think now is as good of a time as any to bring this up.
I think that the pendant came from Lord of the Rings and is specifically a reference to Aragorn's ring or the ring of Barahir.
There is no doubt that the game is at least partly inspired, at least stylistically, off of Lord of the Rings. Especially the intro cinematic but also in the language such as Anor being a cognate of sun in elvish.
There are also various rings of incredible power in the game. Rings are one of the most powerful item types in the game, for instance. So with all of these powerful rings, it's somewhat unique that the pendant does absolutely nothing in the game. Now there can be 1000 reasons for this including but not limited to; they never came up with one, the did come up with one and it was removed or that it's 100% a troll item that's made to confound the type of obsessive player who can't just go along for the ride of a good game.
However (ignoring any references to Berzerk to be sure) there is an item, a ring, in Lord of the rings that is strangely similar. Aragorn's ring or the ring of Barahir.
The ring was described as the likeness of two serpents intertwined with eyes made of green jewels. The serpents met beneath a crown of golden flowers that one upheld and one devoured. This was the symbol of the House of Finarfin and worn by it's lord Finrod.
The ring was later given to a lord of men of the house of Barahir as a gift of thanks and as part of sworn oath of protection to Barahir's kin. This ring would be handed down through generations and would every so often be given and re-given as a gift of utter sincerity, love, trust and benevolence. It was part of two major love stories between elves and men and was given by Aragorn to Arwen when they were wed.
Again, the ring had no power like the one ring did but it represented the power of faith and love and goodwill. Things most precious and powerful, indeed. So to me, I think that is the point of the pendant. It is a useless thing in a way but also a thing with greater meaning than any object that was merely useful might have.
Love the Dark Souls videos. I totally understand your need to both keep things fresh while we wait for Elden Ring DLC and also to get down to the roots of From Software's story telling. If anything, I at least think this will help provide a firmer foundation for your explorations of Bloodborne and Elden Ring.
Love the connection!
@@a.walker7366 Happy to oblige.
As someone who hasn't beaten Dark Souls 1 yet, these videos are SO cool because I can watch the first 7 minutes without encountering any serious spoilers, but still gain SO much appreciation for the game. Inspires me to not give up, skeleton
This channel is so f-ing underrated
Thank you for what you have done for the community. It's really amazing when the game has already come out for past over decade and people are still working with enthusiasm to speculate the lore of it.
Yes, Kaathe and Frampt were never actually enemy to each other. They were more likely friends, and they all believe in The Prophecy of Chosen Undead. It's just that they have different ways in understanding The Prophecy. The Chosen Undead can either choose to link the First Flame and become The Lord Of Light or he/she can choose to accept the Dark and become the human's Dark Lord. That's why when The Chosen Undead decides to abandon the Flame, we see Frampt bows to the newborn Dark Lord, as like he not even mad about it, just accepting the fact that his friend, comrade and also his opposite and their followers were right from the beginning. To me, this is the most accurately way of explaining the story in Dark Souls 1.
According to Carl Jung, one must accept the Light but also do not reject the Dark inside them, we must balance our existence between the Light and Dark, for human is able to do both Good and Bad. And to reject the Dark is to reject half of ourself. Because it is two faces of the same coin.
Truly amazing your work is, one again thank you for your effort. I hope you keep up with the good work ❤
This is genuinely so cool and explains a lot. To me it always seemed intentional that the narrator says the word “chosen” when we’re being grabbed by a Raven, as if to imply that it was Velka’s will being carried out. The interpretation of the older child revealing a greater understanding of the plan (either the true one or the gods’ self-serving rewriting of it) aligns with the relative progress you’ve made in the story at this point in the game, too.
Hey TA. Wanted to echo what so many others have said - your work with these videos is excellent.
I’m in the long process of writing a fantasy novel inspired in part by the Souls games, and these videos really challenge me to dig deeper and think about the nuance of world-building and drawing on real world archetypes.
Thank you for making this series!
Hope I can see your analysis of the dlc trailer, even caught myself noticing small details i wouldnt have if not for your videos.
Man I just checked on ya channel yesterday looking for some gold. And today you deliver. Thank you for the hard work as always TA 🙏🏽
It's cool to see all the the Greek myth connections (coff coff Nito's daughter coff coff) knowing Miyazaki played a lot of Rune Quest
Lord Gwyn forgot Prophecy 101: attempting to stop a prophecy may ultimately bring it to pass
Except he succeeded completely.
No; seriously. Why are people acting like this is some traditional hero story where the hero saw through these things?
Gwyn won. DS2 and 3 exist to prove it. The cycle of Linking continued for thousands of years after his death. Non one ever suspected otherwise, and those who did were not desirous of an Age Of Dark.
Gwyndolin carried his dad's dream super hard.
Moral: hide your kids in the basement and make them dress up like the opposite gender 😅
Dude, every one of your videos is top tier. I can’t tell you how excited I get to see you drop a new post. Thanks for all the effort you put into these!!!
To get Dark souls content again is true sunshine in my cup. Thank you
You're getting way too good at the little cliffhangers at the end! I can't wait for the next one :D
i'm left speechless everytime, and it feels like this makes sense. I always wonder if miyazaki intended this or if it's contrived due to the brilliant world building. Thank you TA!
Skipping right over Dark Souls 2? COWARD!!
Real talk though, fantastic video as always.
This work is incredible, as always! It's always amazing to see inspiration, either direct or subconscious, that these devs took from real world history, art and infrastructure!
Do you have any published work on real world archeology? I don't know much about your field, but your research, presentation and persuasive writing style is extremely professional!
I'm a simple Hollow, I see TA upload, I appraise the video
I always thought that the chosen undead legend was created by Gwyn and adapted in New Londo after, but the idea that Gwyn was inspired by humanity's religion and created his own version to chorale the undead is an interesting thought, amazing video!
Yeah....
That is unlikely to be the case.
Gwyn has been controlling the narrative of our race since the pygmies of the Ringed City; in fact, it could be said he is directly responsible for humans as we know them existing, as opposed to the pygmies:
"Once, the Lord Of Light banished Dark, and all that stemmed from humanity. And Men assumed a fleeting form. These are the roots of our world."
Thus, by the time New Londo was founded ( note the name), there would've been no such narrative of rebellion.
Indeed, the temple you see, as well as the Four Kings arena, is above Manus' tomb ingame. The discovery of Manus, and all that entailed, including the events regarding the Abyss, happened only three hundred years ago. Seven hundred years after the death of Gwyn.
( The developers are the source of this timeline; specifically, commenting that the events of Oolacile happened 300 years ago, and that the Linking of the Fire by Gwyn, as well the events regarding the Chaos Flame before he linked it, happened approximately a millennium ago)
As such, yes, the legend of the Chosen Undead is indeed a godly creation; this variation on it seems to have only begun long after it's original inception.
@@alyseleem2692 i also still believe the legend was a creation of the gods, but it's fun to tinker with different theories sometimes, i too always a wondered about different ststues in New londo
@@TheodoroDML I have my own theory on them.
If you come in from the gates of the city, you may find a Red Tearstone Ring; a symbol, as we later find out, of Caitha.
The woman in the statue seems to be weeping black tears, all while trying to comfort a confused, wide-eyed child.
Whilst this may or may not be a direct representation of Caitha, the message is the same; the statues do not denote heresy so much as grief. As for why they would be grieving, the Four Kings arena lies almost directly above Manus' tomb. Another possible reason is Gwyn's passing, or Priscilla's imprisonment; Caitha is not particular, and likely weeps for all of them equally.
The Painted World is guarded in Anor Londo itself, and is a sacred relic of the gods; to call it heretical( referring to the video) is a bit preposterous. Rather, it is a " haven" in Miyazaki's words; a place where they allow things otherwise Forlorn and rejected to enter and not be disturbed. A safe solution to any problem.
Gael can be seen praying to a statue of a woman covering her face, presumably weeping, calling her "Mother of the Forlorn". This is also likely Caitha; as a goddess of grief and loneliness, her role perfectly fits with comforting the Forlorn and their like. She is much closer to being their patron than Velka ever was.
(I want to make this clear; I do not believe for a second that Caitha is Velka. Their roles are directly opposed, as Velka is a goddess of punishment,and requires active payment for "salvation". This directly goes against Caitha's ethos; even if both have dabbled in the Dark, their work remains different. In particular, black flames are said by Cornyx to require a "deep sorrow" to use; I believe the same is true of many Dark miracles and sorceries alike. Caitha's domain is sorrow; thus, she naturally has a connection to the Dark,as seen with her Chime)
Your vids are great! Best lore is found at the border of somewhat justified conjecture and convincingly argued fan fiction.
Can't wait for part 3 and whatever else you Foul tarnished have cooking!
Low poly assets have a very special place in this kind of content: They procure the same exercise as some artifacts do in actual archaeology, where some finds are either severely eroded, or were crafted in low detail for ine reason or another :)
Excellent as always. I'm still standing by my theory that the primordial serpants (ie dragons) tricked gywn into creating the darksign and humans into creating the abyss. They understood both routes would give us the warped world of ds3. Notice how hollows turn into trees and time itself warps.
Wow these revelations are quite astonishing. I am not sure if prior lore hunters have seen this video but they should because I feel a lot of these, if not new findings have a lot more clear reasoning using our history as a guiding post.
Always on fire, TA. I love how quickly you upturn established lore on these games by just saying “don’t overthink it, it’s the same monomyth we see everywhere in history and literature, stop thinking so hard about Velka” [assertion mine]
This video blew me away at the end! I was ready to correct you about something I thought you got wrong about something you said in the Jesus parts. I should have had more faith lol tho, because you addressed it and got it correct but you were just building a great story. 👏 👏 👏 🙇♂️
I am so happy that you have decided to dive into the other parts of the Fromsoft grim dark library. The lore community space tends to feel so negative and stagnant with creators clinging to item descriptions and translation localizations as the only context of story. If I had my own channel I’d gladly interview you to get your thoughts on your process. Keep creating. Shake up the ‘established’ fan base and creator pool.
Another TA masterpiece. Great content as always
my fav lore channel 4 sure. youre awesome!
this channel is just…This is my favorite lore channel. That cliffhanger….bro….
Great work as always! FWIW the structure you identify as the Abyss-enclosing temple strongly resembles stepwells of the less elaborate variety with just a helical staircase descending down a cylindrical passage into water that often appears very black from the lack of light getting down there.
Also I always assumed the reason there's Four Kings is because of the four heavenly kings in buddhism, who occupy the lowest part of the world of the devas on Mount Sumeru where they protect the dharma against asuras.
"Oh thank god." - Me, audibly at 1:26 AM when i noticed this video was up.
I have been craving for dark souls 3 lore so i will be waiting (im)patiently for your next video !
Like always. Cannot wait for the next part.
In the right eye so many secrets are uncovered.
It's usually the left eye for me
Man i know I know Elden ring is big but please keep these coming! :)
A fresh take on DS1 makes me so happy.
A thought: what if the mother and child statue isn't depicting a school-age child, but an adult human. A descendant of the furtive pygmy, who would have been much shorter than whatever race the gods are. It could be a depiction of a taller god nurturing a pygmy who will one day take their place. This might be a stretch, but it may be worth looking into the possibility.
Tbf, having more than one king at a time isn't completely unheard of, though I've never heard of more than two IRL (the spartans, iirc). Co-emperors were also a thing.
IIrc, Lokey has (and they’re longtime theories) the Madonna statues depict Velka and Priscilla. I’d love to hear you directly analyze that alternative.
He kinda did, by analyzing the same statues and coming to a different conclusion.
They probably don’t depict them one to one. They probably reference that there’s a mother who helps safeguard her child. It’s probably why Velka is in charge of sin and forgives it. All undead sin and to be lifted of it is similar to a mother protecting her child. It’s designed to be a symbol for forlorn undead to rally around. Similar to a cross. That’s why they protect Priscilla she is their opportunity to become closer to the goddess who looks out for them by acting in a manner similar.
I started playing dark souls for the first time a few months ago, on PC, using Luke Ross' mod for VR, on a cheap outdated VR headset with the Age of Sunlight overhaul installed. DSR is the second best game I've played, next to Elden Ring. In VR they are both mind blowing. I'm thankful our paths aligned ( I'm playing dsr, you are exposing it) because there is just enough weird in the games to put me off, if it weren't for the knowledge that these things have real world inspirations. Now peering into the brilliance that is FromSoft, which Tarnished Archaeology have kindly unveiled to gleam forth upon us, I make my way to Lord Gwyn :)
Is the teaser at the end that the Mother-Child statue has been covered over in the Cathedral of the Deep? Absolutely cannot wait for the DS3 video(s). As great as DS1 is it’s very interesting to see how much more adept From are at developing and utilizing the strata concept and iconography of these civilizations as their games progress.
7:17 hey this is awesome BUT DONT TELL ME 7 MINUTES IN THIS A PART 2 😭
But part one was awesome, I’m glad I watched it
I've been watching DS1 lore videos for a decade and it's great to see people are still at it, still coming up with strong new theories. I'm wondering, in this theory, what exactly is the origin of the Undead? Did Gwyn and Nito create them intentionally to keep humans down and turn them into bonfire fuel? Or was it an accidental consequence of extending the age of fire too long? Or are undead just the natural form of the descendants of the furtive pygmy?
my god that cliffhanger. another masterpiece
Yes! My favourite souls lore RUclipsr! Keep making awesome work!
this series is brilliant! thanks for the hard work TA
My first thought is that if the temple encircling the Abyss can be read as a ring around a sacred space, then it may also be a literal recreation of the Dark Sigil.
I can’t wait for the continuation of this series
I think another big part of New Londo that is often glossed over is that Symbol on top of the first Temple you run through, where you eventually drain the water and can get the Ember. It's the same symbol that's used in the Undead Parish, also linking both of the areas. I always believed that it was a Light-Based temple before the Kings thought up of their Plan. I thought the drop into the Abyss was the kings' way of dealing with the undead, sacrificing themselves back into the Dark so the others could go on living in peace. I thought it matched the Ring of Sacrifice trope and dealing with their own "sin."
Ive often wiahed there were some TA videos for kingsfield but you did mention the low poly count here and thays a great point. Nvm, but thank you so much for time and effort here, very much enjoying the TA analysis of older titles.
You’re doing really great work TA
ive always been really interested in dark souls 3's Londor and that dark lord ending. so this is a close second to me
You absolutely NEED to dissect Dark Souls 2. What we dont understand about the series is deeply rooted in that game. Many locations like heide, iron keep, drangleic castle, tseldora and aldias keep have to be analyzed...
Chosen one wake up! Tarnished Archeologist posted the Dark Souls video!!!
The great one returns to bless us.
Man I love this channel, I always like to hear irl connections or marks in our history. Probably will forget because all of the past is always unnecessary to know about but I appreciate people who take interest in those things and I'll gladly listen
you gotta understand why the world is the way it is
Gwyn is literally like Sauron. He gives part of his power in order to control and rule them all.
hell yeah i've been waiting for this so eagerly!
24:50 lol I think we found the inspiration for the weird trumpeters in Leyndell
TA taking on the dark souls series right after I finish killing 100% of all bosses in the 3 games let’s goooooooooooo 🙌🙌🙌🙌
I think it's awful that you guys, being the very best content makers in the whole internet, take so long to make new videos! You should be releasing like at least 5 a day so we can watch it non-stop!!!
xD
Jokes aside, thanks for these! You guys are just awesome!!!!
I’d never heard of that one story about Jesus pulling a Kevin McAllister, that’s hysterical
The cathedral of the deep suddenly becomes so much more interesting. =)
It's refreshing to see you back.
That said, I disagree with at least half of what you said.
Let's begin with this, right out the bat;
There was likely never a point where the gods weren't in control of the prophecy, with the only exceptions being the Serpents, and more importantly, the period after Gwyn's death. New Londo itself, as well as all human cities thereafter, is a successor to a state already pacified by the gods.
The Ringed City.
The people of New Londo weren't pygmies; merely Undead. They looked like, and lived like, the average man, in contrast to the exceptionally Hollow-looking pygmies themselves, who even in their own statues are depicted as Hollow as we see them at the very end of time itself.
As it's name suggests, New Londo was client and successor to Anor Londo. And that was true since it's inception, for even the Ringed City itself was under similar dominion, if begrudgingly to some of it's inhabitants.
The myth of Man's ascension is recorded, if we are to believe,on a Titanite Slab; the Titanite Slabs were the work of a god.
The Chosen Undead has always been an ideal, born from the thoughts of the gods.
As such, the stratum of the sunken temple likely isn't before, but after, the building of Firelink Shrine.
Why am I so certain of it?
Do you know what lies below the temple?
Both it, and the Four Kings' arena,are almost directly above Manus' grave.
In a word, they weren't worshipping "the Abyss". They were worshipping it's source.
And he was clearly not happy about it.
" Seduced by a dark serpent or no, they awoke that thing themselves, and drove it mad. One's demise is always one's own making."
This connects, also, to the fall of Oolacile, which likely happened in conjuction with these events; Ingward speaks as if Artorias yet hunts Darkwraiths abound outside New Londo. Evidently, it was an ongoing affair, ending in Artorias' death, and, when all hope was lost in his return, the flood of New Londo.
So, that leads to the question:
Why?
Why did the supposedly wise Four Kings take part in so foolish an endeavour as the waking of Manus himself? What did they expect to come from their prayers? Why abandon their loyalty to Gwyn?
Here's a question:
When did the fall of Oolacile, and by extension New Londo, take place?
Three hundred years ago; seven hundred years after the first linking of the Fire.....
And the death of Gwyn.
-
Seven hundred years.
Seven hundred years of Gwyn's absence.
We all think what we think of the man, but could you imagine how it felt to his most loyal followers? Undead, living centuries without their Lord?
It is reflected in the statues, too; I believe you overstated their heresy, for the Painted World remains a creation sanctioned by the gods and present within Anor Londo; they only allow the unwanted to enter there at their own pleasure. It is no prison, but, according to Miyazaki, a "haven"; a hiding place, one endorsed by the pantheon.
Nonetheless, let us focus;
How do the statues reflect this?
Look well; the woman's hollow eyes shed wretched tears of black, as she holds her child in a gesture of comfort. The child, evidently, is confused.
What strengthened this impression in my mind was what I found outside the city''s gates;
A Red Tearstone Ring.
A symbol of Caitha; Goddess Of Tears.
Now, I won't pretend that the statue depicts Caitha specifically, or that the developers even had a specific name like "Caitha" by Dark Souls 1, but even without her existence, the concept checks out.
The statue is of mourning; the temple is a temple of tears. A mausoleum.
Whom does the woman and her child mourn? Who is the father missing from this picture? For whom do the Four Kings stand silent at the base?
Gwyn?
Manus?
Both?
The third is entirely possible; after all, nothing we know truly indicates either of them to have been enemies in life. Indeed, instead of pursuing his "duty" as Dark Lord, Manus was content to sleep; a course Kaathe certainly didn't approve of, and sought to correct.
The Four Kings are corrupt, and yet, the shard they recieved from Lord Gwyn remains pure; blazing as it did when they recieved it. Why show such reverence, if they have abandoned their lord's vision? For indeed, Kaathe does not slither among them, but hides deep beneath, only emerging for....
You.
Is he so quick to abandon them for you? Or...
" They failed me; every last one of them.
They were strong, but could not see the truth.
I am certain that you will prove different."
What " truth" could they not see, old friend?
Is it perhaps, that Flame must fade, and that only Dark must remain?
_
The prophecy of the Dark Lord was introduced in a time of grief and desperation; the Fire faded once more, and Gwyn was there to protect his people no more. None of the Four Kings possessed as much courage as they did wisdom; all they sought was answers from those before them, be it Gwyn or Manus; the shrine above, or the tomb below.
There had to be a way, they thought, to both sustain and reconcile this conundrum; to sustain the Fire, and yet pacify the Dark that threatened it. There had to be, or else who among them four may be tossed to follow their sire?
In entertaining these questions, and in their desire for a third solution, they found Manus. And in Manus, they found their doom.
They would not be the last, and if one were to be so bold, they may not have been the first.
Notes:
1.The prophecy is the same, as you said; in fact, there likely isn't even a variation in text. If we are to take the famed Titanite Slab translations, all they say is;
"Man will rise; cold will return."
Man rises, but should he do so as Lord Of Cinder or Dark? Cold and Dark return, and we see them return, but who says they must stay?
Who says the Fire must fade?
Indeed, such openness to interpretation may be the reason why Gwyn's plans were so successful; after all, we know they succeeded. Otherwise, how would Drangleic exist? Or Lothric?
2. The Four Kings were likely kings in truth, if only in the most esoteric sense as seen across other ages. A "monarch" is defined by the strength of their soul; by sharing a single great soul of power, the Legion Of Farron secured their mandate as Lords. They were, effectively, the same person; their unity is assured by their unity in spirit. Literally.
Edit: Final note:
For those confused by the timeline, it is based on interviews with the developers in which they state that the DLC happened 300 years ago, and that Gwyn linking the Fire happened a millennium ago. Based on this, there are about seven hundred years between the rise of the Abyss and Gwyn's sacrifice.
You state things as fact here that aren't supported by evidence, and then build on that shaky foundation. I'm sure SOME of this is correct but until you weed out the unsupported conclusions it's just messy.
@@DichotomousRex Do you mean the timeline?
You're right it's not ingame; instead, it's from the developers' interviews.
The DLC is said by them to have happened about 300 years before the main story; in comparison, Gwyn is said to have linked the Fire a millennium ago. My calculations, and conclusions thereof, were based on these two statements; if the Abyss arose three hundred years ago, then there's about seven hundred years between it and Gwyn's death.
If you mean the part about the Titanite Slabs, I'll admit, it's shaky, but still; not necessary for the theory in general.
100% the statues in new londo and painted world are depicting Velka.
Babe wake up, new Tarnished Archaeologist video is out
I wonder if the child/adult issue with the Jesus story lines up with Miquellas attempts at becoming an adult. Maybe he needs to in order to become a messiah for the lands between
In my opinion, the Deep and the Profaned Flame are a reference to Cioran's Sacred/Profane dichotomy.
The Deep represents an Abyss that has been profaned by prolonged stagnancy.
The Profaned Flame represents the First Flame profaned by the Flame of Chaos (hence also the dental resemblance between Pontiff Beasts and Centipede Demon/ Gaping Dragon).
I'm not sure about the profaned flame being corrupted by chaos. Given that the profaned coal doesn't grant chaos infusion nor do black knights weapons grant bonus damage against enemies associacted with the profaned flame.
You Are Brilliant. Genius. Never Saw Dark Souls In This Matter.
incredible work, as always, keep it up!
Every video I click on of yours I think to myself “please let this be long af.” Just so I don’t have to continue searching for ER/DS content
Oh man have I been looking forward to this one!
I love your stuff, Tarnished
Dark Souls is the type of game where the "dark messiah" is the ultimate good guy and best hope for the world
Really cool as always. May I suggest you to watch Hawkshaw's video? He too thinks the kindling prophecy is a fabrication, with deep analysis (he's the best analyst i know of DS1)
i'm going to eat up all this content and there's nothing you can do to stop me
The mother statue must be representative of Velka and how she guided our journey, or perhaps the Furtive Pygmy as our forebearer as Kaathe describes. Maybe both?
Also considering how much the Ringed City reveals about Gwyn's relationship with the ancient humans, I think New Londo absolutely kept their worship of the Abyss a secret. And that's not to mention how New Londo probably drew from their former neighboring kingdom of Oolacile in a lot of ways.
@@GrandPaladinTyrux A better explanation would be that they began it after Gwyn's death.
The events of Oolacile occurred, according to the developers, three hundred years ago; in comparison, Gwyn linked the Fire a millennium ago. During that interim of seven hundred years, the leader they were loyal to was absent. That gives them plenty of time to renovate the place, if you will.
Also, fun fact; the temple itself, as well as the Four Kings' arena, is almost directly above Manus' arena. As such, yes, I'm pretty sure they built this place around the time of his discovery.
I personally think the statue, if it is of anyone, is of Caitha. At least, retroactively. A Red Tearstone Ring lies outside the city; the statue itself is weeping black tears, if my eyes do not decieve me; it's only other place where we see it is the home of the Forlorn and desperate.
Whom is she mourning, I wonder?
Is it because the rapier of Velka is in the painted world that everyone thinks the statues are her?
@@erichowens85Largely, yes. Other people cite the Dark Ember and the Crow People, but the latter's connection to Velka is cut content, and the former doesn't mention Velka at all, though she is a goddess of the occult, and the ember can be used to make Occult weapons.
There's pretty much...nothing else. Except maybe the Pardoner Set, but it's former wearer is now a corpse, so...
The deeper you go in your examination, the more the work of Hawkshaw is vindicated. Great job TA, your videos are pure excellence.
I have a pet theory which I think fits well with your most recent video, that the nature of humanity is not so much pure darkness and undeath as many seem to believe but rather that the Lords co-opted fire and used it against humanity. Humanity was drawn to the fire and was a part of the true age of fire, but was depressed by Gwyn and the chosen undead stories are indeed being used to manipulate us, but nonetheless wedding fire die To spite gwyn isn’t the right answer I always choose to link the fire and keep it alive in spite of the attempts to trick me into it because that’s what I think humanity is fighting against the dying of the light and against the lie that there is nothing but darkness for us
The best thing about these lore series is we get to see each youtuber’s preferred drip
One thing I hope you do touch on in the analyses of the narrative surrounding the linking of the flame failing to bring salvation is the story told on Dark Souls 2. People sleep on DS2 because of its status as the black sheep in the series, but DS2 basically sets up the entire plot of DS3. By its very existence, DS2 reveals that no matter what the Chosen Undead decided to do, the cycle of an undead needing to relink the flame to stave off the growing Dark repeats itself. DS2 is what reveals it AS a cycle in the first place, and Aldia, Scholar of the First Sin, is searching for a way to break the cycle "beyond light and dark". The "first sin" in this mythology is Gwyn's taking of the flame and suppressing the Dark (some have argued it's linking the flame by sacrificing himself, but regardless, Gwyn's perpetuation of the age of fire is considered a sin by Aldia).
The suppression of the human Dark is repeatedly suggested to be a bad thing by DS2, and DS3 bears out this narrative choice by revealing the firelinking cycle has repeated so many times throughout history that it's beginning to fail (which, ultimately, if you try to do it, it does). Like a bad rechargeable battery, the fire is withering out; meanwhile, the Dark Soul of humanity has festered for so long it's begun to mutate and lash out. Aldia is proven right, and the only way to truly resolve the problem is to integrate the flame and the Dark to go beyond both. We see this in two endings; the Lord of Hollows usurps the Fire to claim it for humanity, integrating it with their own Dark Soul. And The Painter paints a new world using both flame to burn the old one away, and the blood of the Dark Soul as a catalyst for the new one; with the Dark Soul being inviolate, the new world ought to be immune from the entropic effects experienced the other worlds, finally allowing all who choose to live in it in peace
(Or the world she paints is the world of Bloodborne, as a world literally born by the power of blood, as is my personal headcanon, but that's neither here nor there).
DS2 needs to be talked about when talking about the wider series.
I like how, at the end, you went into the idea that the whole prophecy was made up, at least partially. I like the theory that the version told to us by Oscar was made up by Gwyndolin and Frampt, due to the language it uses. What do you think of that theory, if you've heard it?
And what do you make of the lack of Gwyn- and Fire-centric imagery around New Londo? The Four Kings did get parts of Gwyn's soul, and the elevator leads up to Firelink Shrine, so firelinking must've been a prime concern for the city at its inception. But the idea that the city was always, at least in part, open to Dark worship would explain why it was made underground, away from the Sun's sight. Do you think they destroyed all their iconography and built the new temple to the Abyss only after their meeting with Frampt, or that both views were present from the very beginning?
Also, you call the big building in New Londo a cathedral, but I thought it was a mansion? It has a fireplace and all.
Let's put this into perspective:
The temple, and the Four Kings' arena, are almost directly atop Manus' tomb ingame.
The events surrounding Manus and Oolacile, as well as New Londo by extension, happened three hundred years ago, according to the developers.
From the same source, we know that Gwyn linked the Fire about a millennium ago.
In other words, any such focus on the Dark, the Abyss, and Manus himself ( who was a recent discovery at the time) occurred during the interim of seven hundred years between Gwyn's death and the rise of the Abyss.
It simply doesn't make sense otherwise. How would the temple be dedicated to the Abyss if the Abyss produced by Manus did not yet exist?
It's a pretty common theory that the prophecy was made up, Lokey Lore presents it as being a falsification too iirc
Personally I definitely believe the prophecy was made up, it's just too coincidental, and it doesn't seem to hold much weight considering you can choose to become the dark Lord
I mean, the first requirement is that you start at an undead asylum. Considering the way of white's persecution of the undead, and the asylum being labeled the "Northern" undead asylum, there are likely multiple asylums that exist around lordran. So, many undead will end up in an asylum before reaching lordran. It's positioned as being coincidental and meaningful that the prophecy starts there, and yet it's a very easy condition to fulfill, most likely intentionally, to give many people the false impression that they are part of some grand, predestined journey to save the world.
I mean, it's pretty overt that the gods are constructing a narrative to make you feel like a hero so that you will do whatever they want (Kaathe does it too), and we already know the gods are lying to you because of fake Gwynevere. So I would say it's much more likely to be a made up prophecy
There is a staircase in the painted world that goes up into nothing. Perhaps the entirety of the painted world or at least that part made up what the abyss is now (was connected to the new londo staircase that takes you down there) and the abyss replaced it because it's literally a removed space.
Ohh the legend is back!! 🤯🤯🤯
Unreal, cant wait for the next ❤
Fear not the dark my friend and let the feast begin
So, like the 2nd chapter of this video suggests, this can be the tale of a Dark Messiah. It's certainly a tale of Might and, if you want it to be, a tale of Magic.