The Way of White & The Undead Curse | Dark Souls Lore
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- In this episode of Rediscover Dark Souls Lore we reveal some lesser known secrets behind the Church and the Origins of the Undead Curse. Lore which has been hidden in plain sight, and which has far-reaching implications for the way we see the World of Dark Souls.
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Hawkshaw
What about the furtive pygmy don't tell me you forgot him so easily XD
Oh my god I love this comment
Ludwig from 3
Who? Did you say "Curative Kidney"? oh no, wait, did you say something about the "Subversive Blasphemy"? Whatever, it was on the tip of my tongue, but now I lost it completely. Ohhhh.. WAIT, you were trying to "Forgetive Easily"! Now I remember! Yeah I cannot believe he forgot the game's tagline "Forgetive Easily"!
Furtive? I've heard that word before but I can't remember what it means...
@@HalfLifeOfHumanity cringe
Sometimes I think that Patches was a good man at heart. But after some sort of dellusion or disappointment he set out to punish people for their faults or their weak character. Like he punishes people seemingly for their greed while he always ends up punishing them for their curiousity in fact. It feels to me like he was maybe son to a high ranking priest. Like he was always punished for being curious and asking too many questions. His father taught Patches and the people to be pure, while he himself was rotten to the core. I can picture Patches like this really well.
That does make sense.
So if youve played the ds3 dlc and you're at the dreg heap. You may come across an npc who forgot his name. I forgot what name he gave himself but when you do a certain thing he gets his memories back and it turns out it's Patches, who made it to the end of the world. But if you think about it, patches was a really sweet and swell guy before he got his memories back. Now he's back as suspicious, conspicuous, hella misanthropic, and crude. So I'd say that you are right.
I've always loved Patches. He seems like a genuinely good intending soul. Perhaps led astray, and raised in such a way that he began to see curiosity, innocent desire, following one's duty (if a duty that leads one to inevitably have to do something morally wrong in his mind) and greed all under the same category of avarice. He also seems almost low, or like an underdog. Like he's in a lower rank of society, and naturally a bit resentful of his higher ups as a result. It makes him a little more relatable to an average player, including me, and I see him and get the vibe that he's sort of a bro when you get past his possibly misguided desire to punish avarice and scuminess.
@@wizardofooze554 Poor Lipp just wants to know who he was
I killed him right after I got out of the pit he kicked me in
I regret it now, wanted to see his storyline, e
Curses in Dark Souls are explicitly stated as being from the gods. The best humans can do is transfer the curse from themselves to a surrogate. But they cannot break the curse themselves, only the gods can do so, as is the case of Ingward.
I think it is quite likely the undead curse is a result of the “first sin”, if we accept that a sin is to violate the natural order. In this context, the first sin is Gwyn’s unnatural prolongation of the Age of Fire. We know Gwyn feared humanity, the dark. There are two theories: Gwyn created the curse in order to create the system by which undead are manipulated into growing strong and using themselves as fuel in the first kin, or Velka created it to punish the gods, specifically Gwyn, for their sin.
I believe Velka is the source of the undead curse. It’s why her crow ferries undead from the asylum. It’s why her crow servants are guarding Priscilla (more the lifehunt scythe) in Ariamis, which just so happens to be in Anor Londo cathedral. She created the curse so humans return to their original state, because they were deprived of an age of dark by Gwyn, and happen to be the biggest threat to Gwyn. In the age of fire, humans assumed a fleeting form, in other words, they died. No human could gain the strength to punish Gwyn as a mortal, but when undead they absolutely could.
now that the Dark Soul 3 DLC: Ringed City is out tho...
We see that Gwyn was the one to create the Darksign by sealing the humanity of soldiers with a ring of fire before the battle against the dragons. I believe that after their victory and subsequent exile of those who took part in the battle to the Ringed City the art of fire sealing humanity was lost... But we also know that Gael escaped as a rogue undead knight so perhaps he was captured by Allfather Lloyd's followers and experimented upon to reverse ingeneere the source of his seal, thus an imperfect form of it was created in the form of the Darksign.
The darksign seems like a weaker imperfect version of the fire ring that are on the Ringed Knights of the Ringed City... And probably was developed in an attempt to create perhaps an army of his own, but the Darksign seems to be imperfect in the sense that those branded with it can go Hollow, in the Ringed City those who are there do not seem to be Hollow whatsoever and are simply protecting Filianore, the only exceptions are people who come from far away: Lapp and the Dragonslayer Armor who fell there after being forgotten. I believe that because of this flaw, The Way of White seeks to obtain the Rite of Kindling so they can bolster the burning effects of their Darksign, so that maybe it'll be as powerful as Gwyn's seal.
Then the made up legend could be further believed since, by now Allfather would know that a Lord's soul can link the flame, and knowing that humans share the Dark Soul of the abyss he'd try to send as many as possible to the asylum in the hopes that their humanity would eventually match the greatness of a Lord's before coming up with the legend as an excuse to tell the masses as to why they're sending so many undead there.
This explains why the cleric undead are not related to the linking of the fire in any way nor even mention it, since they're trained/taught in seclusion... (creating followers in males as seen in the girl's escort team, and training females in the art of kindling bonfires and perhaps creating the Darksigns since we know that females have it easier messing with fire) ...They wouldn't know of the lies told by the higher ups to the population because they wouldn't be taking part on it, since having undead pursuing their own goals and aspirations of maybe becoming as great as the Lords were would directly interfere in the church's pursue of the art of kindling.
All I know is a purging stone postpones the curse and a fire keeper can cure it in a sense but probably corrupting themselves a bit by it. The curse def was meant to stay until the day the world ends. Some abused the curse,others fled it, others accepted it and let it be. The few cursed were used to either postpone the curse or keep it grow as a hollow leader. Since they can't actually ever die, only rot away without humanity.
@@myrkflinn4331
The firekeeper never cured your curse, she just removed your dark sigils, which are different than the darksign and were placed on you by Yoel. The curse is being undead, going hollow is just the progression of being undead. I don’t think we’ve ever seen anyone “cured” of undeath except maybe Aldia in DS2
I don't really buy the whole Velka theory; mainly because if you take the "light" ending to be canon then we just did what Gwyn wanted anyway. Not a very good revenge plot
Curses aren't the domain of the gods, curing them is: "The breaking of curses is the territory of deities".
"I think it is quite likely the undead curse is a result of the “first sin”"
No, it's just what happens when the Dark inside humanity comes out.
"In this context, the first sin is Gwyn’s unnatural prolongation of the Age of Fire"
No, the first sin was Gwyn branding humans with the ring of fire that sealed the Dark inside them, and giving them the mortal form they have before the curse sets in again. Aldia is very explicit about it.
"Gwyn created the curse in order to create the system by which undead are manipulated into growing strong and using themselves as fuel in the first kin, or Velka created it to punish the gods, specifically Gwyn, for their sin"
No one created it. It's just what happens when you are from the Dark and the fire fades. You go back to being undead.
"It’s why her crow ferries undead from the asylum"
From the narration, it's implied the crow carries you to take part in the Undead Prophecy.
"It’s why her crow servants are guarding Priscilla"
Alternatively, they could just live there. The Painting is a place for people without a home, and they follow a heretic faith.
"She created the curse so humans return to their original state"
They return to their original state because the only thing holding them back was the ring of fire. If fire fades, so does the ring.
This video completely changed my view of the undead curse. Even the phrase, "Those who art undead, art chosen" can be interpreted in a totally different way.
I know it is kind of off topic but do anybody know of a good website to watch newly released series online?
That's not where the curse comes from tho.
@@StephanuSneed where does it come from then? (not sarcasm genuinely curious)
@@grahamfriedman1812 From humanity itself. Aldia is very clear about it:
"Once, the Lord of Light banished Dark, and all that stemmed from humanity.
And men assumed a fleeting form.
These are the roots of our world.
Men are props on the stage of life, and no matter how tender, how exquisite...
A lie will remain a lie."
"All men trust fully the illusion of life.
But is this so wrong?
A construction, a facade, and yet...
A world full of warmth and resplendence."
So, lets take a closer look at what he is actually saying. Gwyn banished the Dark, and humans took a mortal form. This form is tender, exquisite, it allows humans to live in a world full of warmth and resplendence. This is what we know as the default human form, how humans exist without Undeath. Which means that this form is a lie, and therefore, the opposite is the true form of man. What is the opposite of mortal people enjoying their finite lifes? A hollow, an immortal being that can't truly die and is essentially a violent zombie.
So, if we put that together with the fact Undeath only comes around when fire fades, and that we know from Ringed City that the ring the gods branded on humans to contain the Dark is made of fire, we reach the logical conclusion that Undeath is actually the true nature of man coming back to the surface when fire can no longer contain it.
So, undeath isn't actually a curse at all, which is the reason why Purging Stones don't cure it.
Also, a lot of the wording Hawkshaw uses to support the idea that undeath is caused is very faulty if you look at it critically.
"Long ago, the Way of the White produced its first Undead"
The Way of White is the most popular religion in the world of DS. It's like saying "x religion produced a great philosopher". It doesn't mean they literally bioengineered him, just that he was born and raised in a place controlled by them.
Solaire says that he became undead to go to Lordran. That doesn't necessarily mean that he chose to become undead, but that he perceives it as part of a divine mission, as in he was chosen. This lines up with him being extremely religiously devoted.
It doesn't help either that the translation of DS1 was bad, and Hawkshaw uses the original japanese texts very sparsely. For example "vereor nox", the little phrase Hawkshaw spend so much time translating and trying to make sense of, is an asspull by the localization team. The actual devs didn't write it at all.
@@StephanuSneed I haven't played dark souls 3. I'm assuming that's the game the ringed city is in. Thanks for replying.
"Imagine a real-life figure, whose face appeared on money, was the head of the largest church and had an army."
Literally Henry VIII
I have a feeling Lloyd was based off that
@@grubbiechirp5695 Maybe indeed but it is a shame then we did not had more on Lloyd in Dark souls 3
You can tell that a lot of the storyline revolves around how full of shit the christian church is. The white is clearly an analog for christianity And how they try to make you feel special so you give them all your money and let them control your life and then they want you to bring your kids in right away so they can get brainwashed and keep doing shit for the higher ups who probably don’t believe in god anyway. One of the plot threads of dark souls is them taking old stories and re-appropriating them for the new religion which mirrors how christianity stole older word of mouth stories and bits of other religions like pagan ones into an amalgam of what we ended up with as the many editions of the bible. It also speaks to the idea of the most pious seeming individuals have a motive and they’re generally posturing To hide the fact that they’re just using you.
@@sugarblunt Yes, people who virtue signal their morals, usually are bastards.
Whether it's the church, or the woke left, it's about control.
@@ShibsKensei don't be doin that in the dark souls youtube comment section
Undead Curse Notes:
- its original form is a Seal of Fire placed on arms of ancient humans forged in the Abyss
- Undead existed in the Age of Ancients, both as Slave Knights and as the post-disparity dragons using the Primordial Crystal
- Undead are 'produced', 'spawned', 'turned' well into the late Age of Fire after the first Fire Linking
- the Way of White knows how to produce Undead
- the Darksign does not appear in the opening cutscene until anastacia draws embers into a human corpse
- the Rite of Kindling, which shows a writhing, burning humanity sprite, is passed between clerics
- the Way of White lost the Rite and wants to obtain it again
- anastacia knows the Rite of Kindling and performs it after decanting the first Lord Soul
- Firekeepers and demons all seem to possess some knowledge of the Rite
- the writhing sprite curling in on itself may be likened to the circular black void surrounded by embers corralled on all sides
- thus we may speculate that the Darksign is an internally-focused version of the Rite of Kindling, involving internal humanity being burned slowly until one is hollow
- the Seal of Fire/Darksign is not necessarily rooted in the Light Soul but in bonfire flames derived from the First Flame itself which return the Dark Soul to the Great Soul, removing disparity and returning the cursed to a Hollow state
- the Darksign/Curse being 'contagious' may literally be because the fire spreads to nearby humanity and catches alight
- it's uncertain if the Darksign was intended to spread as far as it did, but it is clear that Gwyndolin, Frampt and Velka are keen to adapt to/make use of the situation regardless, as opposed to Lloyd who seems overwhelmed
- Filianore may be the original creator of the Rite of Kindling/Seal of Fire which is intended to be used by Firekeepers after her, and may be imprisoning the original Dark Soul using it
- anastacia may have been bound for using the Rite improperly, possibly by Petrus or another Way of White cleric
"Slave Knights" implies that the dieties conquered the Humans/Undead/'Pygmies'? in the age of ancients and used them as auxiliaries against the dragons in the war. The Seal of Fire/Darksign was probably used as a way to convince them that the gods had given them the power to cheat death and fight forever when in fact he thinks it will wipe them out by draining their humanity from them and leaving them useless or reducing them to infighting, via the bonfires as you stated. After the war the Humans most likely get uppity and want a city for themselves like the other Great Lords, and fearing them, Gwyn he does give them a city... one that that he closes in on all sides, hoping to stop the spread of the undead curse but it leaks to the outside world anyway. And so, eventually, after the linking of the first flame and the undead become a problem the world over, they are corralled to the north to waste away, "warming themselves" by the bonfires, their humanity leaking out, leaving them helpless and unresponsive until disparity dies and the world grows still again.
Just to add if it hasnt already been said but undead are able to kindle bonfires just like the right of kindling which could mean that the seal of fire could be the origin for where the rite of kindling comes from or vice versa
The only thing u got wrong is humanity isn't burned it's caged,trapped and siphoned, without humanity there is no kindling I think I'm only a year into ds1 relatively new fan
@@journeymanofhope9866 The "syphoning" process is humanity being slowly burned away by the ring of fire, which in turn cages the Dark. The Bonfires are efts of the First Flame, which forms the ring, likely made of embers drawn from one by Anastacia. Much like us chucking the massive ball of humanity/soul power re-ignites the First Flame, the slow-burn of humanity tops it off ever so slightly.
Incidentally, this may reconcile a lore paradox: If Gwyn had enough sway to seal away the Pigmy Lords, how the hell did humanity spread without the God's consent? cI propose they didn't.
Gwyn is essentially *defined* by his obsessive inability to let go of his Age of Fire, willing to re-work the Logic of the World to do so. He was also pretty damned brilliant and quickly understood that a fire needs fuel source, so he took out two birds with one stone. He bound the Pigmies with the Dark-sign and confined them in their ringed-city, in the erroneous belief that the Dark Soul will pour a limitless supply of humanity as fuel. The crazy thing is that it worked, and the Age of Fire is prolonged... at first. Eventually, the Logic of the World imposes itself, and the Fire begins to fade; so begins a vicious cycle of humanity spreading further outward across the world as the fire dims.
I would further speculate that the Witch of Izalith's experiments with the Chaos Flame precipitated the First Flame's decline. The Witch was technically successful in re-creating the First Flame, what she failed to account for was that it still required a source of kindling and it too is/would fade, requiring a steady stream of humanity. This places the Gods and Demons in direct competition for a finite resource, which eventually pushes Gwyn to declare a War against his former allies and it goes poorly. Ending in an effective stalemate wherein they sue for peace and agree to divide humanity right down the middle. Over time, humanity, shepherded by the Gods through the Way of White whose "benedictions" place the Burning Ring that is the Darksign... and the Fire *still* begins to Fade. Seeing no other options, Gwyn marches to the First Flame and offers himself up as Kindling, prolonging the Age of Fire once more, until it begins to darken again.
Soft voiced British dudes talking about Dark Souls lore is my ASMR.
Couldn’t fall asleep without it at this point.
Im something of a mechanic so “10 hours of power tools” is literally the most satisfying videos ive watched. But u agree with you
Facts 💯
For real. Lol it literally isn't a good dark souls video without a British accent. Particularly this dude and Vaati but silver mont too
You joke but Hawkshaw lulls me to sleep at least 4 nights a week now.
Shits so relaxing.
i do this hahah
Also,
the conclusion that the way of white began "branding" humans to create undead for the sake of kindling the flame/bonfires/first flame is amazing. For the sake of keeping Gwyn in power, create undead to infinitely kindle the fires i.e. like their version of cattle. But when shit got too real and they lost control, the undead became rampant and once you add a "Lord of Dark" legend in the mix, you get religious freaks that over react/freak out over the one thing they created may end up being their undoing.
love it
Lloyd's rings Dark Souls 3 both state that the title "Allfather" was proclaimed falsely. This makes him rather suspicious deity. I think he is most likely power hungry and producing, hunting and abusing undeads is one of his means to gain control over humans. Hollows have been always hated and feared, they are good scapegoats.
Prolonging the age of fire is definetly a common interest for both Gwyn and Lloyd.
But I also think the fact that Lloyds title is self proclaimed is sign that he might be competing against Gwyn. By trying to position himself as higher ranked deity in DS pantheon. Because title "Allfather" suggests also a status of a creator god. Thus he is trying to paint an image that he created Gwyn's sunlight and maybe even the flame.
+Sauna Jaakko this brings up a big question
Why did Gwyn link the fire? To preserve the world? Or, was he deceived by Lloyd into believing it would prolong his reign when in reality, it turned him into a husk as it did so many other Lord Of Cinders.
Taha Imran that is a very serious question and needs to be researched.
im waiting for the dlc
next one should have him
Sauna Jaakko Actually, I assume "Allfather" is a title similar to a pope, who I assume everyone refers to as "holy father". I know you're supposed to call a priest father anyways, and Lloyd being the leader of the way of white makes him the "father" of those fathers, or priests. And the only reason that he fell from favor is because one of Lloyd's major symbols is a shield and Carim hates shields. It's stated that the knights of Carim dislike shields, which is why they have parrying daggers. And there isn't a single Carim character who uses a shield, because their culture hates them. So Allfather Lloyd, who's symbol is a shield, would be seen as a false god. Just as a god of death would be seen as evil in a culture afraid of death, but celebrated and worshipped in a land that honors and respects death.
Subtitles now available here too. Not long till the next video!
I'M SO HAPPY READING THIS I COULD CRY
Thank you for your hard work Hawkshaw. You are amazing.
Hey, Hawkshaw, hope you will see this. Your video got me thinking. If father Lloyd is undead, he is basically immortal, but he can go hollow, to prevent this he and his inner circle need humanty. So the need to prevent hollow is the reason for the whole religion. Lotrec is after humanity, dark wraithes are too for some reason.
I also find the number of homeward bones found below firelink shrine rather interesting ... it implies that Petrus possibly travels down the catacombs regularly and wants to return safely then - preferably alone.
Maybe that's why patches hates clerics. As petrus could've wronged patches in some way.
"The Way of White is a religion of peace."
Dank meme bro
Yeah, like any religion...
jojolafrite90 except Muslim
Muslim isn't a religion
Islam is a Truck of Peace.
FINALLY I've always thought the intro scene showed that the undead curse was placed on others with intent, not just something that happens.
Bro just casually spoils all of berserk while trying to explain dark souls lore. Like there are a lot of people, and especially dark souls fans, who may still be interested in reading.
I see where youre coming from but he doesnt spoil that much tbh only farneses relationship with her family/faith or did I miss anything ?
Oh wow ok he actually spoils a lot more lol
I just realized the Church Servants in Bloodborne look a lot like the Holy See priests.
Oh, Miyazaki. You and your Berzerk references.
I mean if you’re GONNA reference anything…
I think we've found who's getting the $$$ for explaining the lore correctly
TheBassPhenomenon Any chance you have a link/title to search for of the winning video?
TheBassPhenomenon wait so was it a contest to tell the lore correctly or just an entertaining retelling of what we know? that video didn't say anything new that the intros couldn't have told us already.
looks like miyazaki got to Hawkshaw first, so as to prevent the actual lore from getting out. but serisously. there are actual quotes from the directer himself backing up these speculations. you can't get more concrete than what the creater intended the lore to be like, or at least wat was intended.
@@KamiDesu7 "looks like miyazaki got to Hawkshaw first, so as to prevent the actual lore from getting out." ik it is 2 years ago but WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT :D
@@akifmemis4255 i forgot i even made this comment lol.
I just thought that hawkshaw being not as prominent as other lore channels , i was trying to paint hawkshaw as some guy going into hiding from the fromsoft authorities.
My mind was in a different place then.
way of white starting to remind me of the church of blood healing...
Mike Shivak Fear the Dark, Fear the Old Blood. May the Good Blood guide your way, I forget the equivalent for the way of white but there’s like something to do with father Gwyn or something. I love it.
@@coralinekozun7325 The way of white clerics say "Vereor Nox" a butchered latin phrase meaning "Fear the night/dark"
Also the Temple of God follwers in Demon's Soul, who secretly have tailmans of the Old One. Soul Arts and Miracles both come from the Old God.
@@coralinekozun7325 The WoW never mentions Gwyn.
You are one off the best lore in depths ever! Please don't stop.
Don't intend to! Thanks man
+Hawkshaw good stuff mate , you should do bloodborne too it will be awesome plus it gives you a reason to go back and play it lol I love that game
If u start as Knight(class) you are in Way of White covenant...Can it be the same knight from starting scene?....
"The Shackles of the Gods are Fragile" -Holy Knight Hodrick
So I have a couple thoughts on the "Uncle of Lord Gwyn" comment. First, I know that the Norse Eddas, being first written down in their entirety after Christian occupation of Viking lands, contain a foreword. This foreword states that, while these books tell the story of the Norse gods, they are all only demigods compared to the "true Christian God", something they were probably required to say in order to be allowed to record their history.
Maybe that's what's going on here. The Way of White may believe that Gwyn and his family are just regional demigods compared to the gods of their religion.
The other idea, and I think this is way more compelling but maybe less likely, is that Allfather Lloyd is a romanticized figure based on Nito. Going by the intro cutscene of Dark Souls, it seems to be Nito who actually discovered and possibly kindled the First Flame, and Gwyn simply took it from there. This would, in a sense, explain what the Rite of Kindling even IS.
And it explains, too, why all of the Way of White pilgrimages lead not just to the first place where you can find the Rite of Kindling, but all the way into Nito's home. You find Paladin Leeroy, of the first pilgrimage,'s set IN Nito's boss room, and where you find Reah and friends, they couldn't possibly have been headed anywhere else.
The faith is called Way of White, with Gwyn meaning "white" in welsh and being a god of light. The fact that Lloyd is his uncle and has the title Gwyn would have had (allfather is better translated as "chief god" in Japanese) is meant to make you ask why his uncle and not his children inherit the title.
Also, Nito didn't exist prior to the First Flame.
"why all of the Way of White pilgrimages lead not just to the first place where you can find the Rite of Kindling, but all the way into Nito's home"
Because Pinwheel stole it from Nito.
Nice work, mate.
One possible translation/interpretation of Vereor nox is - "I, the Night/Darkness, fear myself". Contextually, this makes sense a lot of sense given humanity harbors the dark soul and fears it so, that they must offer up that very humanity.
I think it’s closer to ‘I fear/revere the Dark, the subject of the verb would be the thing being venerated
What concepts did you use to reach said conclusion? How do you know?
I'm not a Latin expert by any means but I'm interested enough in it to know you're not technically wrong but that's a very ass backwards way of translating it. Considering the context of where it's used, it just means "I dread the dark".
For the night is dark, and full of terrors
@@grimble4564Not a latin expert, but it can't be "I fear the night", as that would be "Vereo Nocti".
"Vereor" is first person passive. Meaning(In short) that the verb is refers to the object as a subject, in this case night.
Nox is nominative, meaning that it's the subject or object experiencing the fear, or vocative, meaning it is the subject the person fearing is addressing(However, it is NOT the reason for the fear, and instead is just a second party being talked to"
Given this, I don't think it translates as "I am afraid, night" like Hawkshaw said, but instead as either "I, the night, am afraid" or even even "I, the night, am afraid if myself"
Either way, it seems like "Nox" is the subject doing the fearing. If it was the subject being feared, it would be Vereor Noctis
I find it important to point out that Nico, whether you love or hate him, is spitting straight facts
I'm Welsh and Welsh is my first language. Nice to see someone acknowledge the Welsh meaning of Gwyn's name
I wish you all had more representation in culture. I remember watching in old black and white movie that took place in Wales, and Domnhall of Zena (which may be dark souls Wales?) Is heavily implied to be Welsh when he says his adorable catchphrase. 'Aye, simwae(?)' which if I remember correctly is basically 'how's it going/what's up?'
@@lucamckenn5932 siwmae, yeah
Fellow sheep shager and wife beater! Shamae!
@@lucamckenn5932shwmae and it just means hello or in other parts of wales it’s just helo
Im Hungarian and Hungarian is my first language.
Nice to see someone acknowledge the Hungaarian meaning of Gwyn's name
It doesnt mean anything at all in Hungarian.
Looking at churches in Soulsborne games is basically just looking at the real life church from like 1700 and back
So Petrus means stone, and you have Havel the Rock?
Havel Dwayne the rock lol
Jaykova your heart is cold as stone id break my fist if punched you
What if Havel is literally just a rock golem, would explain why he has no stamina and wears boulders. And why you find more than one set( One being worn, and the other now discarded), a model supersoldier you can just make outta dirt of they bite it.
Rock and stone!
It's a bit sad that he spends so much time analyzing the "vereor nox" line when the localization team just pulled it out of its ass. It doesn't exist in the original Japanese script.
Where could I see that fact evidently?
@@TheAlison1456 In the japanese subtitles for the english dialogue.
Instead of "vereor nox", they say "by the guidance of fire", which is consistent with DS3 where that motto is translated correctly.
To expand a bit on that, the game's texts were written in Japanese and then translated by a western team to english, leading to a lot of mistranslations and changes.
One could argue that this didn't happen with character dialogues since the game was voiced only in English, but there are in fact similar incongruencies between those dialogues and their Japanese subtitles. It's possible that the Japanese team changed their mind and wrote new and slightly off subtitles after the voice recordings had already been done, but since the rest of the game is badly localized, the better guess is that the translators also fucked up when translating the Japanese dialogue scripts that had to be voiced in english.
@Piratadoidao Miyazaki has said that he expects the players to put the story together by themselves, while also stating that there is, in fact, a correct story to the games he makes, even if it's not as directly told to the players as other games.
And regarding the "vereor nox" line, you are also wrong, it was the translator (who did not write any of the game's story) making up a line on their own (the latin they tried to use isn't even grammatically correct).
We know what the original correct line in japanese is, and the DLC of DS1 and DS3 even translated similar lines correctly. The Thorolund people got a shitty made-up latin line because the translators wanted to emphasize they were modeled after the roman catholic church. In a similar way, Lloyd's title as changed to "allfather" because the translators wanted to emphasize a parallel with Odin and didn't care if it only confused other aspects of the story.
Even the japanese name of Thorolund (which has massive implications for its history) was badly translated, which is awful because it's written in very simple katakana an absolute beginner could correctly translate.
50 minutes to say miracle builds suck. But seriously, great video
On the subject of the Undead Curse: I always assumed that it was partially an unintentional side effect of linking the fire and that the way of white and others who willingly became undead simply learned how to invoke it artificially. I mean it is clearly stated that Gwyn tried to link the flame in order to prolong its existence, but how does linking or in this case spreading the fire around the world help anything?
Well in my eyes it was done so that humanity(which we use in game to kindle the flame) could be more easily and on mass feed to it. However as we know humanity can be either extracted after a person dies(evidenced by the number of corpses with humanity on them and rats in the sewers drooping it) or it has to be extracted using the mythical art of life drain. There is however a problem, life drain is something that Cathe bestowed upon people in New Londo and that place was eventually flooded, plus only darkwraiths seem to use it. Since they were former knights of New Londo I find it unlikely that they were the ones using it to extract humanity from people as it seems rather improbable that a knight would be tasked with such a thing.
So that leaves us only with humanity taken from dead bodies and as we can see in game that isn't exactly a plentiful source of humanity(aka look how much humanity you can get from corpses). But there is a third option, to simply throw a human into the fire. Noticed ever how all the bonfires are made of bones and skull? Yes, it is very probable that at least initially the fires were kindled using living humans, perhaps even their creation requires a human sacrifice( the coiled swords seem to imply this). This worked out for a while(and by that I mean perhaps even few hundred years) but ultimately the flame continued to weaken to such a point that it was unable to fully consume the humanity of a person(again notice how tiny an unkindled bonfire looks). Instead it "kindled" that humanity turning said victim into a undead. This would also explain how hollowing works, why you respawn at bonfires and why all the undead look like they have been burned , the flame that the made you undead is slowly burning through your humanity until there is nothing left but a hollow husk, while effectively shackling you to the bonfire itself.
And so once the flame was too weak to properly consume humanity offered to it, the undead started to appear on mass and so the way of white(despite originally producing its own undead) started to hunt them as they felt the situation got out of hand.
Please excuse my English as its my second language, you theory on humanity and the curse of the undead seems to go good with a theory of my own assuming the church actually produces undead then they must have a limit to how much they create and with thier power they can eradicate the undead if they think it goes out of control what i mean is that does the curse spread from one human to other and if they can then is the church that stupid enough to create an extinction of thier own or was it an accident that got out of hand?
And on the topic of humanity I would like to share my point i would like you to examine it feel free to correct it if i am wrong, why does we the chosen undead does not go hollow without humanity and souls how does we be sane without humanity, there must be something else to trigger hollowing other than the loss of humanity. You might not see this but here my view point on your theory and i apologise if i made mistakes on my grammer or anything
@@anujithnairm.s6770 Well we actually have no idea how the curse spreads since we never actually see a place or people not affected by it, so that kind of complicates things. But I always assumed that it was not spread like a disease but occurs more like an unintended consequence of linking the flame. Basically to kindle the flame you need humanity and only humans have humanity so the church or Gwyn were initially throwing humans into the fire to kindle it. This worked but eventually as the fire weakened it could not fully consume the humanity of people thrown into the flame and they came back as undead. The Church of White did not create this intentionally, they probably just observed this effect and realized that by applying little of the flame(or a spark like we see in the intro) they can
guarantee that a undead is created. This was cool for them initially since they got immortal warriors out of it but as more and more undead started to appear by their own the church decided that enough is enough and started hunting them. The church did not create the curse, they simply exploited it for their own gain(as there seems to be some rivalry between the way of the white and Gwyn).
As for the choosen undead(CU), the player character that is simple. We as the CU never actually go fully hollow. Undead are created from people whose humanity was not fully consumed by the flame. If you look at the Darksign you will notice that it looks like a burning piece of humanity. As long as not all of that humanity is burned up the undead should not go hollow. This means that the Darksign is actually our characters original piece of humanity and as long as that is not burned up we cannot go hollow. We can come close but never go fully hollow. Every other piece of humanity we collect is just a bonus to that original Darksign.
@@Ravielsk wow i never expected you reply to my comment thanks a lot for replying, so this cleared up some of my questions regarding the church but i still have lingering questions about the humanity it is stated that whoever holds the undead sign is always chained to a bonfire
so for eg the undead we fight in the undead burg still respawns after they die which means, is the dark sign a form of humanity eating thing or the dark sign itself is a humanity that is burning it self out to keep the owner from going hollow and the additional humanity we gain adds to the fuel. If the dark sign is kind of like a humanity burner then that would prove why the undead we fight in the burg respawns but if the dark sign itself is a humanity that burns then why are they undead alive after we kill them once. ? Again thanks for replying im actually amazed that you replied to a four year old comment feel free to correct me where im wrong
@@anujithnairm.s6770 Well I do not really have all the answers but I assume it works like this: The Darksign burns humanity but once it burns through all or most of it the afflicted person turns hollow. However the reason why it even burns through humanity in the first place is because its derived from the first flame. Essentially its a small piece of the flame with all its powers and properties.
And as we see in the intro the flame can very much support or even evolve life. This is further evidenced by estus flasks and all those boss souls that look like tiny flames. So what happens with hollows is probably that once the flame burns through their humanity it functionally replaces that humanity sort of like a new soul.
But since humans in the DS universe are defined by having dark humanity(or a dark Soul, I think this might be a problem with the translation tbh) that is the very opposite of the flame that also means the flame cannot fully replace humanity/dark soul but it can keep the sort of alive(a.k.a undead) and chained to a bonfire or just to the fire in general. Thus these hollows end up respawning the same way as the player. But since they no longer have their own humanity/dark soul they only respawn as mindless zombies.
Or you know it could all be just a gameplay mechanic that has no bearing on the lore.
@@Ravielsk im kind of getting the gist of things, i recently got interested in dark souls lore so theres lot for me to uncover and i still haven't played ds3 yet and i keep away from all the ds3 lore until i finish it so in the mean time i research stuff about ds1 anyway it was nice having conversation with you, take care
Pretty good up until the halfway mark. After that, though, you constantly misread quotes to suit your argument, like "produced" an undead meaning "literally created an undead," when it clearly is just saying that Leeroy was the first follower of the Way of White to become undead. Your Solaire misquoting is even worse. Nothing in "I became undead" implies that he did so on purpose. He's clearly trying to find meaning in his becoming undead after the fact, like any of a trillion real life examples of people claiming they were "born to [do X]." Every other quote in between is likewise twisted to suit your argument rather than being true at face value.
A damn shame. Your theory has potential, if you could only find actual evidence. You pretty conclusively prove that the Way of White is corrupt, and that there is a process by which dead become undead (as shown in the opening cutscene), but nowhere do you show that the Way of White actively creates undead or that the process to become undead can't also happen naturally.
Thank you. Both examples, Leroy and Solaire, sound a bit cheap. It looks like he wants them to fit in the narrative. But it's a good theory. It explains why not every human become undead, something that i've been thinking about. First I thought the undead curse apeared just when the fire started to fade after gywn linked the fire. Actually, it's very confusing
idiot
How did you conclude the murmurings were a sign of questioning? He might just be reciting a prayer under his breath
It’s the outfit he wears
The description
I'm gonna say it right now.
Hawkshaw is the best lore channel!
Hands down
Praise the lore
Hey dude. I made an account to comment on this video and say that your lore videos are amazing. They're extremely well-researched, carefully edited and professionally delivered all whilst being appropriately atmospheric and thought provoking. Whether you focus on DkS, the Souls series as a whole, or beyond - I'll definitely be subscribed. Awesome work man ^___^
That means a lot man. Hope you continue to enjoy, we've got some great stuff in the works.
New subcriber, same sentiment!
@@fpcooper95 :D
Wishing Allfather Lloyd was a boss you could defeat.
I think you read too much into the word produced.
"The teacher asked for my homework, and so I produced it," makes sense but doesn't mean I did my homework right then and there.
But most of your theories are pretty sound imo.
You know thinking about it, this puts a whole different perspective on the Nameless King being in hollow form. Now it appears to be a choice rather than being another victim of the undead curse. Also across the games there is dialogue stating that humans are slaves of the gods. Oscar's cut content says this plus Oceiros calls you ignorant slaves. In unteaded graves there is a coffin that has a body in it, the very same one you rise from. The queen of Lothic leaves gifts for the player which hints at the idea that ashen undead are a product of them. Also the dark sigil in DS3 is applied to the player, strengthing the idea that the undead curse is manufacutred.
slightlytwistedagain the dark sign and dark sigil are different things. Hollowing is definitely not a choice, if it was, there'd only be few hollows, and Oscar wouldn't be hollow.
Oscar didn't want to be hollow, but still became hollow.
slightlytwistedagain the Ocerios thing can be interpreted as a mad king, who only sees his subjects as slaves.
Also Oscar's cut content also goes with him serving the gods and wanting to link the flame. In the cut content he chooses the opposite of what ever you choose.
It's possible for something to be a choice in some cases, and nonconsensual in other.
Ah, you ignorant slaves... Finally taken notice, have you?
18:30
i believe Reas Father died. that is what Petrus means when he says "without her family name".
she has no family left and so the way of white wants her out of the way.
she has the pendant in memory of her father too.
In my opinion, you are THE greatest lore master ever!
Thank you Joshua.
Agreed. Makes a lot more sense than the fauc mysticism arguments of the Undead Curse just "appearing" as a result of the Age of Fire being prolonged.
@@Mayhzon I mean, even then, the Curse is still Gwyn’s fault. Any way you look at it, Gwyn and his followers have ruined the world for their selfish desire to stay in power
@@stingerjohnny9951
Feels awfully familiar, doesn't it? ;)
@@Mayhzon lol a little bit. That said, I subscribe more so the undead curse being the result of linking the fire.
Between the Churches views on undead, the fact that so many humans from so many different lands suffer from it at seemingly the same time, and the fact that the undead show up every time the fire fades, even in lands that don’t follow the Way of White, it seems to me that the Church didn’t make the curse.
Makes more sense to me that the curse was an environmental response to the world being altered from its natural cycle due to the greed and desperation of the powers that be…which ALSO sounds pretty familiar 😉
That bit about the intro blew my mind. This kind of discovery, centered around something as central to the game as it's introduction, changes the entire message of the game
Strongly disagree with much of this video's interpretations. It takes wording and phrasing far too literally. While the effort and work put into the video are good, the conclusions are all speculative and filled with technicalities based on small, niche language differences.
You've done it again, great video. I have to say though that Vereor Nox has one of the trickiest translations but FOR ME, it has a better translation, "Fear the Night", as of fear the darkness. It makes more sense to me as it gives a link to the necessity of producing undead. It is necessary to produce them in order to find the one that will extend the age of fire the longest. Praise the lore!
It's also mirrored by the line in Bloodborne "Fear the Old Blood".
This’d also make more sense in that Latin-based (Indo-European) languages have some conceptual differences from Eastern (Sino-Tibetan/Japonic) languages, and FROM probably didn’t invest that much time into learning the nuances of the Latin language. They went with something that had the concepts they wanted to put into the name (Fear, Night), but still sounded good.
I think JSF pointed out that it translates more accurately to “I am afraid, Night.” As if the speaker is addressing the night itself, and admitting fear of it. A friend of mine is a Latin professor and agrees, but the way the line is delivered, perhaps it’s a mistranslation.
I took it as a general use fear! called out into the night... as in what may be out there in the night. good, undead, hollow alike.
It can also be reduced reflexive "I,the night, fear (myself)" (in latin languages like my native portuguese it feels less forced, I swear), telling how the way of whit teaches beings of the dark soul to fear the dark.
The dark sign was made by Gwyn to keep the power of the dark soul controlled in the ringed knights (you see the giant fire circle in their armors) however, when fire faded, the dark sign went out of control and the undead appeared, if you dont know what I am talkin' bout, read the "age of fire" comic, it explains many things, but the way of white neither create undead, they hate em', they hunt them, they kill em', but never went on bussines with em' (except for their "cursed" clerics) they also had an order of knights that hunt undead, well im done writting, please read this hawkshaw and rethink what are ya saying...
Is the comic canon?
Great video, but just to clarify, your thesis is that the Way of White's primary - but not only - purpose in creating undead was to create a source of fuel for bonfires to extend the Age of Fire? So Gwyn links the fire to extend the Age of Fire, which then starts to wain again, causing Allfather Lloyd to come up with the undead solution rather than sacrifice himself in the manner Gwyn did? Do you plan to discuss the fire/dark dichotomy in a future video, because if my above summary of your thesis is correct, it would be interesting to know what is was about the coming dark that was seen as such a threat. I know fire = light/good, dark = death/bad, but I feel dark is only ambiguously bad in the Souls series, and fire, given the sacrifice required to maintain it, can only be seen as ambiguously good.
The age of fire is an age of prosperity, mainly for the ones in power : the Lords who found theirs in the first flame, as well as the Way of White which bases itself on "the tales from the gods" , which means is legitimate thanks to the what established Gwyn and his followers winning over the dragons, the result being the Age of Fire. Having the flames fading is bad for everyone who actively draws power from the first flame, Gwyn and his followers mainly.
The Dark is a threat because it extinguishes the flames, bringing a brutal end to the reign of the Lords (end of the Age of Fire), leaving the church with no purpose, since kindling is no longer required, and maiming Allfather Loyd's ambitions, status, and power over human.
(the title "Allfather" is somewhat implying, he his a paternalistic figure that humans should listen to, and by following his religion they blindly follow the Age of Fire)
Finally, the Dark and its effect are mostly unknown, and the threat of the coming dark could be summarized as a fear of the unknown.
You could argue that the "Spread of the Abyss" is an example of the Age of Dark, but I wonder if the real cause of the Abyss isn't simply a result of Manus's humanity going wild, rather than the normal state of the Age of Dark. Maybe the Age of Dark is quiet peace.
+Anon 87786 I guess that creates an interesting dynamic for the character given we start as a scrub, and merely a pawn of those in power seeking to extend the Age of Fire, but end as a lord ourself, in possession of substantial power but - depending upon the ending - still a pawn for more established players of the game so to speak.
stealingfire1991 dark doesn't initially mean bad. Look at berserk, which dark souls has many similarities to, the black swordsman is the protagonist, while the white swordsman is now the antagonist and a betrayer.
"Produced" has both an active and passive definition. When the Way of White "produced it's first undead", that can also refer to one of their members becoming an undead for the first time, not the church intentionally creating him.
No way, with other words like "branded with" can it mean anything other than that Undead are created from people who died by some other means.
@@CigaretteCrayon That idea doesn't really track, given tons of people throughout the ages become undead not just against their own will, but also against the will of society at large. Even in this interpretation there's the assumption that undeath self-propagates somehow.
@@CigaretteCrayon I've actually often seen the word "branded" used figuratively to describe physical characteristics, like saying a person with a lot of wrinkles is "branded with the marks of a long life" or something to that effect. That doesn't mean someone branded them when they got old.
@@RevanX77 The other problem with the theory is the fact that the ancient humans were branded with a fire seal by Gwyn. Imo he did that as he feared humanity and knew that the Age Of Dark would be our time and their age would be over but by binding humanity to fire like he did he made it impossible for us to exist without it. That is what Kaathe fails to mention, that Humanity as we know it cannot exist without fire and so the only way to keep existing and not become a bunch of mindless hollows is to keep the Age Of Fire going. Which is why Aldia's idea to break the cycle was to find some way to make the Fire last forever without the need to be linked (He never succeeded of course but that's why he went about it the way he did) It's also why he made the Green Herald(Firekeeper in DS2 who lets you level up)a Human with the power to exist beyond time like Dragons do. His plan was to make an immortal Firekeeper that could make the Age Of Fire go on forever Edit: Grammar. Again as we know it it didn't work the Green Herald seems to exist somewhat outside time like the Dragons do but for whatever reason she was unable to sustain the fire.
No... it happens in every cycle... it's the fire fading... that causes the curse to start. I like your perspectives but this one I think you're stretching to reach your conclusion. To "produce" something can mean to have something and bring it forth (generate), or in that case find one among their ranks when before they thought there were no undead. The wording is due to translation. It is very literal and uses very proper English that is scarcely spoken these days. But it is known that hollowing is because as the cycle ends, we begin to lose our humanity. Some faster than others. We return to our natural state. So it's not something new, it is returning to what we were and truly are.
It probably is natural, as hollowing is. But to hawkshaws point, they can also be produced. And as pointed out, a lot of the descriptions point to it being manufactured as well.
Hey, your videos blew my mind and I think you are the one telling us what Dark Souls actually is about! So I have to ask, do you plan on doing more videos in the future? Cause after seeing all these videos, you just became my favourite Souls RUclipsr!
Glad to hear it! There is definitely plenty more to come, I'm just unable to pump them out as fast as we all want. One is in the works though as we speak
Hawkshaw This is great news, thank you for the answer! :)
I'm so confused. I thought the Pygmy created humanity, and imposed the undead curse on his decendants for reasons unknown. If this is false then what's the significance of him and the Dark Soul of man? You're saying the Undead Curse was made by Way of White clerics and imposed on the bodies of fallen warriors. I remember reading a passage in the book "DARK SOULS BEYOND THE GRAVE vol 2" that the Way of White was used to decieve undead to provide themselves as kindling for the linking of the fire. I'm so confused now 😕
You need to reupload this so it's not 5 yeard old anymore
+Hawkshaw I'm currently scraping brain matter up off the backwall, my mind is that blown...! This is great work, can't wait to see more :)
Please don't sue for damages...
One amazing reddit post i read years ago, who attempted to translate "Vereor Nox", and gained quite a bit of attention, came to the conclusion that it translates to
" I , the night , fear myself "
can't say wether that is correct or not (it's a shame i don't speak latin despite being from Italy..) but it's still my favorite interpretation
Watched this again after playing through DSR. Fascinating conclusion on Way of White, great work man!
Historically, a mace was used by those wearing armor against those in armor. It's inherently an anti armor weapon. It's not a good choice for unarmored opponents as much. Even a spiked mace would not be good against unarmored opponents.
Maces and warhammers fatigue those in armor while causing blunt trauma. It's to drain your stamina and to cause blunt force trauma.
While maces and warhammers can kill an unarmored opponent it's not as efficient as a weapon for cutting. Falchions, hewing Spears, barbed straight sword, claymore,zweihander, axes, bastard swords, Longsword, short sword, scimitars, broad swords, sabers and arming swords would be better.
For the unarmored, you would want blades and maybe thrust centric weapons if used with a buckler, shield or dagger. Rapiers are not good against armor. Unless you go for the gaps in the armor. Which is difficult.
The Rapier does this well in duels. Spears do well here too.
An Estoc might do ok against armor.
Halbards and Bec de Corbyns are good against armored opponents.
Why are cutting weapons 'vaguely, generally' better?
A mace would easily bring an enemy down (dead, unconscious or immobile) if you hit them in the head or leg whereas a sword wouldn't (make immobile at most, unless you use thrust attacks at the chest)
Man I wish he'd drop some more dark souls 1 content I love how in depth these videos are I find myself rewatching them
Your use of 'produced' is sort of weak. You could also read that as 'many years ago, the first undead appeared that were followers of the way of white,' implying that there were other undead before, but these were the first to follow this specific religion. The term 'produced' has a tricky double meaning and could really mean either of these. Your other evidence is much more convincing.
i disagree with the idea that the way of white are manufacturing most of the undead, or that the undead curse is always deliberate. first, the grammar for the first few item descriptions is fine and works perfectly well. for example, when you say something like "new york has produced many famous artists", you don't mean "the city of new york works day and night to specifically build artists". you mean that they came from that environment.
so, paladin leeroy would've been a paladin of the way of white, then become an undead later, possibly by accident, though it's unlikely it was by choice, since few people would choose to become a test subject for a strange brand. none of this implies he was forced into being an undead, nor that the way of white are the ones who branded him.
same with the knight king rendal. his land was overrun when undead were spawned. while that could imply someone spawned them, it can also just state the past tense, with again, no proof the way of white have anything to do with it.
there's also aldia's dialogue from DS2 that has some cryptic hints for how the curse works, this bit in particular: "Once, the Lord of Light banished Dark, and all that stemmed from humanity.
And men assumed a fleeting form." a literal reading of this seems to imply that aldia believes humans were immortal before a "lord of light banished the dark". so, since aldia is currently one of the best sources for info on the curse (along with the tight-lipped yuria and yoel of londor), what we should probably be asking is this: is the dark sign a curse, or a _reversion to a more natural state_?
and, if it is a reversion to the natural way humans should be, why would it be that it can only happen artificially? i would guess you can become an undead naturally fairly easily, it's just faster and more directed to have it happen artificially.
interestingly, yuria seems to believe the same thing as aldia, stating multiple times that hollows are "the true face of man" or something like it. so, that's two of our semi-reliable sources saying that hollows and immortal undead are how humans should be, and that the dark sign is wholesome, though only yuria seems to think it's entirely natural. aldia seemingly blames gwyn for it after all.
Men become hollows when turned undead. And all humans were hollows before they were given dark souls by the Pygmy. That's what that's about.
Yal Rathol dark souls 3 clears it up better gwyn did indeed brand the humans and cursed them
DS2 is garbage and its lore isnt canon
Cain also how the darksign in the sky symbolising the world being bound by fire becomes white, similar to a humanity
Niko: hmmmrrmrrggsvyyyummmuuuuuhhhh
Hawkshaw: So clearly this man is a critical thinker who questioned the teachings of the way of white🧐
Lolwut?
The item description he mentioned does hint towards that possibility. Or he's just disabled in some way.
PRAISE THE LORE
Praise the LORE \[T]/
Miyazaki, when designing the Way Of White:
"So I asked myself, is there an analogous religion in the real world that is, somewhat sinister, often misogynistic, and mostly filled with men, exploiting people's faith for their own ends?
Unfortunately, I couldn't find one that fit that description.
(Awkward pause)
So I'm basing it loosely on the Catholic Church."
Its accurate though because the catholic church isn’t as innocent ad you think. There are still life sacrifices and blood shed over people loosing faith happening
The possible explanation for organized religion often being seen as villainous in Miyazaki's games could possibly be because Japan doesn't see organized religion in the best light. Game theory did a video a few years ago explaining why Final Fanatasy was anti religion. Also really like your content. Found out about you from VaatiVidya. Keep up the good work.
The first fourth of the video was pretty slow but man did it pick up by the end. I never saw it that way, it made so much sense. I would want you to make more connections between ds 2 and 3 in the future.
Apologies. Tested the waters and hope to improve for the perfect middle ground. That depends on our support since we have still barely scratched the surface of this first game.
I never really thought about Undead being actively produced by the Church, by extension, the Lords.
That just blows my mind and makes really think how many possibilities there are for what's going on.
Being purposely produced to keep the supremacy of the Gods going.
Makes me both want and not want more in-game content on Father Lloyd; I wanna know what he does but at the same time I wanna keep on hearing stories like these.
Thank you for this video.
@@SadoMessiahLP The whole theory is that the 'curse' is just the gods making humans undead to keep them controlled in a way. Having the prophecy about the Chosen Undead and the fact that Gwynevere is at the head of the Way of White (and she talks about the Chosen Undead; her illusion anyway).
Obviously they don't tell us what happened exactly to begin the curse (otherwise that theory wouldn't exist); Kaathe says that the curse began when Gwyn refused to let the Flame die, which would actually have been a good time to create the whole 'Chosen Undead' prophecy.
So in terms of events of this theory, it'd go like this:
- Gwyn refuses to let First Flame die
- Sees himself growing weaker, so the gods come up with a plan to have an (near) unlimited supply of 'fuel' to keep the Flame going
- Come up with the Way of White; Gwynevere is the caring and loving goddess that humans rally around, and in reality she's just telling them to go be fuel for the Age of Fire i.e. keep the gods in power.
- Undead are 'made' to give ground to the prophecy they've just come up with; make undead, make a prophecy, and the existance of one gives credence to the other.
It is all speculation, but I find it more interesting than having the curse appear just because; also the Undead Prophecy is confirmed to be a big farce, just from the events that happen in the game.
Linking the Fire doesn't really help humanity because they just keep getting sacrificed to keep the gods in power.
@@SadoMessiahLP Do you have a direct quote saying that Gwyn linking the Fire caused the undead curse? Been a while since I played; I'm pretty sure it's never explicitly mentioned.
Also no idea why you're getting antsy about me 'explaining Dark Souls lore to you'; we're just having a discussion.
@@SadoMessiahLP But the Way of White and Gwyn are linked; the fact that Gwynevere isn't in Anor Londo in the first game (and that they basically lie to every indead who gets there) is already fishy.
From DkS3, we know that Smough was the last major guard to remain in Anor Londo, obviously for protection.
There's some theories that say she passed via what is Heide in DkS2 and tried to set up a similar base as Anor Londo (similar architecture, those statues with the GLGS and bird heads, Ornstein being there) but moved on as well.
The fact that she has a role in the phony prophecy already tells us that she is on the side of Gwyn and artificially prolonging the Fire; starting the Way of White faith as soon as the Fire started fading in order to secure a bunch of fuel via faithful humans would be smart.
And it is very probable that bonfires were actually made to support the Chosen Undead prophecy, and didn't just appear after the linking of the Fire.
Homward Bone description says the bones of the undead are used to fuel the fires, and Firekeepers are bound to their bonfire.
We have three Firekeepers in DkS1; Anastacia, who it is implied to have been crippled on purpose to remain at her post.
Darkmoon Knightess, who is in service to the gods and would want to see them succeed.
And thethird is Quelaan, who either set up and linked herself to the bonfire to help with the puss outbreak in Blighttown or was there before it, maybe during the period they tried to recreate the first Flame.
Anyway, the video ain't saying this happens, but it is a lot more fun than saying it just happened because it did, especially when it isn't refuted.
It's just theorycrafting.
So much of this is so intriguing, and I know a lot of great deal work is put into it, but I feel like I'm just take the wrong turn, and I don't understand why. It's just little things here and there but they add up to a lot. Patches did not get that talisman from a way of white leader as a gift or means of merchant proprietor, patches is a grave robber, I repeat grave robber. Why would you take that course as a way to come to conclusion instead of the obvious that he stole it off a dead body of a way of white high clergyman? This is what I mean I don't understand some of the directions you take, they have to be intentional but I don't understand why. Why not come to the most logical conclusion instead of where you would like it to go? This isn't meant to be negative I know it sounds like it I do love this channel
This video raises few questions that resulted highly speculative ideas. I were not sure if this comment should belong to timeline video or this, but here we go:
What kind of status Allfather Lloyd really had in Dark Souls Pantheon? How Gwyn and Lloyd saw each others? And what is his role in timeline between DS1 and DS3?
Lloyd's rings in DS3 state:
"Much time has passed since the worship of Lloyd was common in the Way of White. The clerics of Carim had always strongly asserted that Lloyd was a derivative fraud, and that the Allfather title was self-proclaimed."
When also considering coin descriptions in DS1 found in Anor Londo:
"Coin made of gold, with Allfather Lloyd
and his white halo shown on its face.
Even coins of great value in the world of
men have little value in Lordran, where the
accepted currency is souls.
Those who dream of returning to the outside
world are fond of carrying these around.."
"The Princess of Sunlight left Anor Londo along with many other deities, and later became wife to Flame God Flann."
Why would Lloyd falsely proclaim himself as Allfather and why gods in Anor Londo missed outside world?
Allfather sounds like a title of superior creator god. In sense, far surpassing Gwyn's title. As creator he would had created the Sunlight, or even the flame itself.
To me it looks like that this title is challenging Gwyn's authority. if so, why would he oppose his rule, the one who has a lord soul and is clearly more powerful and mightier than him?
He is his uncle and thus member of an older generation. Gwyn's family line certainly is the ruling house among his people. Gwyn receiving the lord soul might have been unexpected event that made him the heir of the house, and thus would change the original order, which originally benefited Lloyd. If he was Gwyn's father's elder brother, and thus the heir.
If so, how did this conflict of interests escalate? I don't think that there were all out civil war among them. But at least this disagreement resulted to gods splitting into two groups:
Majority joined Gwyn and settled in Anor Londo and ordered his followers to stay in the city. Some stayed like McLoyf (and maybe Flann) with Lloyd in outer world and established his domain there.
This would explain why Velka went rogue, her most important goal was to oversee and judge everyone's sins. Power struggle might have been unwanted petty nuisance to her work and motivated her to be neutral towards both groups.
As you have demonstrated, New Londo was pinnacle of human civilization and was under Gwyn's rule. Which makes Lloyds dominion's nature questionable. Was it rather minor and grew after Gwyn's power and authority faded, or was he originally just his vassal. But why would vassal proclaim himself "allfather", which sounds like a title of a true creator god and thus superior? When exactly was this title announced exactly?
What is certain is that actions to feed bonfires with humanity by the Way of the White suggests that linking the fire and prolonging the age of gods was common goal for both Gwyn and Lloyd. Even if they would had grudges, they would cooperate to certain extent.
Isolated gods were missing the outer world and their kin living there, which would be why they carried around coins. Glory of Anor Londo could have been their golden cage.
When fire was fading and Gwyn's authority got weaker, this desire to get out of this golden cage grew, gods saw this as a chance to leave Anor Londo behind.
This would explain where Gwynevere, and "many other gods" went. They might have joined Lloyd or at least made contact with him, because his faction was most likely highest authority in outer world. I think that around these times Gwynevere married Flann. As it happened after she left Anor Londo.
We do not know anything else about Flann other than his title and his marriage with Gwynevere. But we can speculate about the nature of this marriage and where he originates. If Flann is god from outer world and somehow related to Lloyd or even his descendant, this union was morganatic marriage. A symbolical union to bound two lines of the same house together.
This is very speculative and has no proof for it.
But it would be too positive to think that Lloyd would had been completely happy to see his rival's descendants moving in and seeking to establish rule within his own dominion. Even if they are related to him and even if he took them under his wing. Even if his rule was not absolute, Gwyn's descendants would be challenge to his rule even when left alone.
But what gods thought about their future? Would they accept the fading of the flame and just wait and see world being covered by darkness? Even if Gwynevere heard her father's last order afterwards, she would be motivated to preserve the age of fire.
Was Lloyd right man to be in charge to ensure that age of gods would not end? This power hungry deity that falsely proclaimed himself as "allfather" and is inferior to Lord Gwyn who sacrificed himself to flame?
What is interesting is that rings state "Much time has passed since the worship of Lloyd was common in the Way of White".
So Lloyd's influence faded at least in the Way of White. What happened to him? Did Gwynevere seize power from him? Or did authority pass to her peacefully through marriage?
What is sure is that Lloyds influence shrinked and Gwynevere's grew. It is hard to say by which means and causes. This eventually resulted the kingdom of Lothric, which is putting lot of effort to produce a worthy heir to link the fire. As queen is speculated to be very likely Gwynevere or at least connected to her.
What do you think about all of this? I welcome your criticism.
Loyd's connection to the "outside world" as you call it, which is really just the "human world", is too strong for him to have any place in the Dark Soul's pantheon.
Without going through all the evidence a second time, Loyd's status could only be fabricated. The absolute is Gwyn and him only, he's one of those who found the First Flame, quite a share actually. All gods have legendary beginnings. Gurus, prophets, and charlatans tend to give themselves mythical origins to mimic the extraordinary, justifying that power and law should be bestowed upon them, without question. Being the uncle to a god is one way of claiming yourself to a higher plane of existence.
It really just sounds like wanting to enter a VIP room, knowing the person for which the VIP room was actually put up and going : "Let me in, I know that guy". Taking advantage and thriving on this situation, but no being an actual celebrity.
I even find "The uncle" in itself to be quite crafty; its both not too close (not a father/brother direct lineage) and not too far (not a cousin, distant relation), the perfect middle ground.
As far how Gwyn saw Loyd, I think he didn't mind as he is innocuous. Even serves his interest. Maybe The Way of White became an actual religion when Gwyn needed to link the fire with a strand of bonfires, all of them requiring fuel and firekeepers, ergo humans. Maybe Gwyn or his followers brought up the figure of an "Allfather Loyd, uncle to Lord Gwyn" as of way to shepherd the humans, thus sustaining the Age of Fire.
So in the end, there couldn't be a war or conflict between the two, as both are mutually dependent upon each other. Allfather Loyd needs Gwyn but moreso his Age of Fire to go on, since his entire persona is based upon Gwyn's legendary tale (even if Gwyn dies as seen in the game, Gwyn is lore but Loyd acts as the surrogate force thanks to his alleged relation to Gwyn).
Gwyn needs Allfather Loyd, but moreso "his" humans (Allfather), since the Age of Fire can only be sustained with kindling.
More so the fire did fade and so did "Allfather Loyd, uncle to lord Gwyn". Only, in death, the god enters the realm of legends and lore while the once powerful human is judged, mocked or deemed derivative.
Gwyn was the original allfather (it's a bad localisation btw, in Japanese the title is just chief of the gods). He went to war with Izalith, came back to Anor Londo, and the city was deserted. He left to link the fire, and the firstborn became the new allfather, king of Anor Londo. Then he self-exiled, maybe prompted by Lloyd or Gwyndolin.
Since neither Gwynevere nor Gwyndolin were apt to take the title, the next male candidate was Lloyd, who corrupted the WoW into his own political organisation.
Then at some point after 1, Gwyndolin came out as a man, became the new allfather, and Lloyd was stripped of his status.
well Rhea's sin may be becoming undead as it is stated that the way of white sent undead to Lordran just to get rid of them and keep the order pure. Rhea being an undead was a stain in the Thorolund name that was a big deal within the way of white
This channel is gonna change the views on dark souls lore significantly! Thanks for the loads of work you put into your videos. Praise the Lore! \[T]/
Fascinating stuff. Excellent video.
I have to admit, when thinking of Vereor Nox with the added knowledge of Dark Souls 3, the "fear not the dark, my friend" line from the Locust Priests come to mind. Could they be related, or is this just a coincidence?
Your translation of vereor nox is well thought, but after some thinking and some research, it seems ultimately wrong. "Nox" is indeed a nominative/vocative, but, BUT, it is also used as an adverb. And so it seems, "vereor nox" means literally "I fear, by night", which is a very latinly astruse way of saying "I fear the night". Great video nonetheless!
"Whether the members of the Way of White are led by wolves or shepherds, they will both be consumed eventually"
10/10 holy shit you guys are brilliant
Yeah the way Solaire says that he gets that look all the time. I always thought he meant coming to Lordran but who would be giving him "those looks" all the time. he might be referring to being in the outside world being hollow getting looks.
I think it might have to do with his Gwyn/Firstborn son worship? Id have to go over his dialogue.
“They are going to pillage graves”
(Crestfallen Warrior)
yeah at first, it didnt bother me but after understanding it longer, I was pissed off.
Great stuff, but what a huge leap about Niko based on incoherent mumbling! Would have liked some more evidence there.
You make such compelling arguments in these videos. You base everything you can on evidence either from spoken word or item descriptions and the stuff you can't find evidence for is usually fairly grounded and straightforward. You and your channel should be well known and get much more traffic. I've watched all of your videos multiple times because they really do go incredibly deep for a game that has such scarce evidence. I knew this game was deep but you take it to a whole different level for me. I really appreciate your efforts. Sincerely thank you.
Also note the Dark Sign is the same shape as the symbol for the Way of White. And if what you say is true, about the timeline, then the Way of White existed before the Undead curse.
Yeah of course they did since they created the curse.
well yeah.
Okay so here's my insight on this, it's like 6am so I may be babbling nonsense but here it goes:
now that the Dark Soul 3 DLC: Ringed City is out tho (hot damn what this guy managed to find out without the additional info from there, amazing!)...
We see that Gwyn was the one to create the Darksign by sealing the humanity of soldiers with a ring of fire before the battle against the dragons. I believe that after their victory and subsequent exile of those who took part in the battle to the Ringed City the art of fire sealing humanity was lost... But we also know that Gael escaped as a rogue undead knight so perhaps he was captured by Allfather Lloyd's followers and experimented upon to reverse ingeneere the source of his seal, thus an imperfect form of it was created in the form of the Darksign.
The darksign seems like a weaker imperfect version of the fire ring that are on the Ringed Knights of the Ringed City... And probably was developed in an attempt to create perhaps an army of his own, but the Darksign seems to be imperfect in the sense that those branded with it can go Hollow, in the Ringed City those who are there do not seem to be Hollow whatsoever and are simply protecting Filianore, the only exceptions are people who come from far away: Lapp and the Dragonslayer Armor who fell there after being forgotten. I believe that because of this flaw, The Way of White seeks to obtain the Rite of Kindling so they can bolster the burning effects of their Darksign, so that maybe it'll be as powerful as Gwyn's seal.
Then the made up legend could be further believed since, by now Allfather would know that a Lord's soul can link the flame, and knowing that humans share the Dark Soul of the abyss he'd try to send as many as possible to the asylum in the hopes that their humanity would eventually match the greatness of a Lord's before coming up with the legend as an excuse to tell the masses as to why they're sending so many undead there.
This explains why the cleric undead are not related to the linking of the fire in any way nor even mention it, since they're trained/taught in seclusion... (creating followers in males as seen in the girl's escort team, and training females in the art of kindling bonfires and perhaps creating the Darksigns since we know that females have it easier messing with fire) ...They wouldn't know of the lies told by the higher ups to the population because they wouldn't be taking part on it, since having undead pursuing their own goals and aspirations of maybe becoming as great as the Lords were would directly interfere in the church's pursue of the art of kindling.
I think, having watched many lore videos - including of course those on this channel several times - this is my favourite. It may not be your Magnum Opus, but it is a marvel. Vereor Nox.
"That'll be in another video where it's more relevant." Pretty sure it's fuckin relevant right here, bud.
lots of logic leaps
Interesting to see the Nox stuff return in Elden Ring. Also another example of an "Less Than Benevolent Church" in a Miyazaki work.
Perhaps the Miracle or Ritual used to turn people undead is based on the original story of Allfather Lloyd creating the first Undead in Paladin Leeroy? It would fit with the lore that Curses are the domain of the Gods.
I think more likely its based on Gwyn cursing humanity and Loyd was likely a test subject.
11:11 - I just noticed that the Sunlight Talisman has a little face on the yellow fabric
Being the son of a preacher, and having studying christian teology my whole life, I can say both the church in Berserk and The Way of White in Darl Souls are critiques, or satire, to Christianity, more specificaly, to the medieval Roman Catholic Church. The japanese have a historic of showing disdain for christianity in their works, I've seem it in mangas, games and animes for decades. It is no wonder that Myazaki has chosen to once again portray the dark side of the Church in his work which, I might say, perfectly fits a dark universe such as the Souls series.
I'm not complaining though, there is much thruth in the atrocities of the Catholic Church, but people rarely mention the good deeds of the Church, or the fact that the Protestant Reformation happened because of the catholic's corruption in order to rescue true christianity.
Rhea is a good person what the author is saying is that the church takes advantage of good people who are part of it
Well, one thing I can note is that the modern American Evangelicals (that tend to be Protestant) are just as zealous as the Medieval Catholics were.
As a relatively devout Roman Catholic myself it always tickles me when I see popular media critique the medieval church like that. It doesn't shake my faith much, not anymore, but it does serve as a reminder of just how authoritarian any religious institution can be for the sake of itself and not of what truly matters, how just like in anything else religious leaders can use the dogma to perpetuate their own power instead of shepherding people to a better future
@@wizkidgamer9942 I too am Catholic. I just find it hilarious how Protestants like to point out, that we're zealous and stuff... Yes, we used to be. But now it's the Protestants in America who are extremely zealous and are always babbling on about how good Israel is (despite the Gaza bombings and Christians getting spat on.)
I'm probably just going on a tangent here. I just find it slightly amusing, that's all.
yeah I would not even call it subtle in Souls
Personally I doubt that Allfather Lloyd was actually the creator of humanity. Kaathe states the Furtive Pygmy to be our "progenitor" after all, implying humans to be descendant rather than created. But the implication of Lloyd's creation of humans is interesting, and I do believe this to be the Genesis story of the Way of White.
To me it does seem Lloyd and the church's actions are aligned with the Lords of Anor Londo and the Age of Fire, in a somewhat round about way. Why would the same church who purges undead be producing them? To employ unwitting humans into feeding the fire, via the killing of their undead brethren.
I think it likely that Allfather Lloyd was directly serving Gwyn as the head of the church, in yet another ploy to extend the Age of Fire.
Well, these theories are mindblowing. I Hope there is more to come. :)
Contrary to this, I dont think Patches has lied to us throughout the entire series. He just cant help but to prank us
The Way of White really reminded me of the Conviction Arc's church from Berserk, especially when it became the cult of the Deep
omg i saw where you were going at 41:55... her putting the hand on the head and the backround color of the darksign matching the skin... you guys blew my fucking mind please never stop. this lore community needs every seconds of your content.
what does the murmuring guy have to do with that robe? what??
I have yet to see a piece of japanese media that doesn't portray the church as villains
It's hardly just an influence from Berserk
by far the best lore channel
The knight's of a astora scale their weapons on faith. I love that straight sword.
The deepest dark souls lore was right under our nose this whole time!
The only hole in it is that it's stated in DS3 in the Ringed City DLC is that Gwyn created that fire seal to bind humanity to fire so that for humanity to exist we would have to link the fire. We were originally creatures of the Dark and the next age would have been our time but by doing this Gwyn permanently screwed humanity so humanity as we know it cannot exist without fire so if we want to survive we have to link the fire or break the cycle in some way.
Technically the description could also be written using a little bit of purple prose, referring to the Way as the whole organization. Thus Leeroy would be the first human turning undead belonging to that organization, he's the first undead produced by the Way of White.
The wording of "The way of white produced it's first Undead" could also imply that 'Undead' have been appearing for some time, and that 'Hero' was just the "first" of their followers to be cursed and return undead. But other non-affiliated have been raising previously (thus the negative connotation held toward undeath in the church). 'Produced' implying Action does not necessarily require it to have occurred through acute human/active intention. Action can still be a random/semi-random production.occurance.
I think this points at the direction that the curse can be manipulated.
It's important to clarify too, which I think he ignores, that the way of white produced THEIR first undead. This implies there were already other undead being produced.
Now, produced can be a passive verb, or even if used in an active sense, it could still be natural. If we say that nature "Produced" the undead, although active, it still implies a natural cause.
I think what's important here is that, with the knowledge fo DS3, it points to the direction that the fire fading is what's causing the undead to appear, but it can also be artificially manipulated, through the rite of kindling, to cause the subject to become undead.
Eventually, as the fire begins to fade, the curse would strengthen and it would get out of control.
I don't agree with him implying the church created all undead. That's just plain wrong. Patches is an undead, and he wouldn't even use the energy to mess with a high ranking church official. Logan also seem unlikely to make a dealing with one. Solaire might've I guess, but that's also an assumption.
I think it's easier to think of the curse as the last stage of human kind, and the church, along with other groups, can actively speed up the process, or "skip" to that late stage by burning the humanity at it's core.
The idea that the dark sign not appeared by itself after one's death and rather imposed on a dead body by someone else in a ritual is hinted in Dark Souls 3 in the beginning of Londor questline, when Yoel of Londor branding the ashen one with the different kind of dark sign - a dark sigil (a black hole of humanity free of the flame bound)
but i only got that after watching this vid, you are a loremaster, sir
I never really give much thought about religion in dark souls before but damn, all of these connection. Is it just merely coincidences or is it on purpose.. anyway learn something new again. Good stuff.
Dark Souls Lore and accidental? Never
nice pfp
i see you're a man of culture as well.
I like this theory, but at the same time, I kinda don't. You see, undead curse works better IMHO as something that can happen to anyone, regardless of whether or not they want it to happen. And some people can place their own meaning into it. Like solaire could probably think that randomly becoming an undead has an inherent meaning to it, while being randomly cursed.
Also, I think that the curse could be placed on all Humans, therefore the wording in all of the examples. And my theory is that it just happens, but undead people being able to absorb souls and feed on humanity makes them good candidates for linking the first flame. Not the other way around.
I don't think that producing the undead would make much sense, because undead are really only needed if the Flame fades. And it just makes more sense to me, that, as flame fades, difference between life and death fades as well, thus undead start to appear.
At the same time, why they need to have an Undeadburg and New Londo, the city of the undead.
I have to go to bed for work. Fuckkkkk
Dominick Bolieau i have this weird curiosity about people who commented on years old videos, so if this account is still active, hows the job?
what is white? Bones. Who is THE bone lord? -- Ainz Ooal g -- Nito.
The way of white worship Nito, and start the undead curse with his help.
All along, they have been in service of Nito.