Do Cables Matter!? and more Divisive Audiophile Topics
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- Опубликовано: 30 июн 2024
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JBL Stage A130 - Neutral/Great All Arounder at $179 the best value amzn.to/3t7gOHe
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sorry I am having trouble with the telegram do you have another way to contact you
That’s a scam. Don’t contact anyone on telegram or anywhere else
Cables matter immensely.
I tried listening to a Pass labs amp and Klipsch Cornwall IVs without cables. Yes, the noise floor was completely black. But otherwise they were silent.
With cables I could hear the music, so yes. Cables.
*slow clap*
classic
I see what you did there
⚡
I like you, and i like this comment.
Fun story.. Old girlfriend who could care less about audio or anything relate. Who hated me spending money on stuff.. Accused me of buying a new system because it sounded so much better.. all I did was upgraded from the set of "upgrade" cables from the store with gold ends (the $50 set).. to the Monster entry level 200i cable.. and I remember the number because I repeated it so much telling her it was all I did.. If you don't think cables matter.. I can refer you to her.. I watch your channel and I agree with you 75% of the time.. I know most folks just want good sound and could care less about the "sound chase".. the ones who do spend time.. converse and take the time.. and it takes time.. to learn to hear and not simply listen.. and there is a huge.. huge difference.. its listening to the same music and finding new things.. instrument placement.. stage.. depth.. height.. etc.. Great vid.. Thanks
Fun video! Really like the music between the triggers 😂. What’s most important about this video are the comments about having adult discourse. Well done, Randy.
Yes, so many adults can't behave like adults.
Alot of speakers disappear for a variety of reasons. You can sit in the sweet spot, try angling them slightly to hear which does this effect the best, but even with that, there are sound passages that favor one channel over the other and you will notice that.
The only way to have your speakers completely disappear from your system is in divorce. You'll find just how much disappears when that happens.
my friend helped me keep my speakers disappear with my divorce by insisting that i go retrieve my audio system and records in one raid. a neighbor must have alerted her at work and she called the house. i answered the phone and she asked WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN THE HOUSE?! ii said...getting my stereo, she said you can't take it, it's in dispute. i said..STOP ME. that was that, she only got what was the used price consideration, to her angered dismay but her attorney told her to give it up.😁
@@hifitommy Ex got my 3k infinitys 10 years ago. I go to see my kids one day a couple years later and the cat had clawed the covers and one woofer clean off. She was using them for, ugh, Movies!
@@robertwoodward9231 ..aaaaAAAHHH!
Thanks for this Randy. A very emotive subject and totally subjective, IMHO. Firstly, as to cables, my life as a networking technician, I know there is signal attenuation and loss during transmission across cables. There is much that can be done to mitigate and reduce this, but generally a well shielded and larger gauge wire will suffice for in-home audio conditions. These are not always the most expensive cables are best, but I have not gone wrong with this decision. As to wireless transmissions there is compression and attenuation inherent, which generally means some loss to the media, so a good receiver and codec will mitigate some of this. Secondly, due to a misspent youth, I have some serious higher register hearing loss, but your Emotiva B+ bookshelves review and recommendation steered me in the right direction. These speakers do disappear and sound stage amazingly with good bass response through the S.M.S.L SA300, also reviewed by you, give me enough power and feeling to 'feel' my music again. So thank you as always for prodding me to reconnect with my music. Thirdly, to open another can of worms, vinyl vs. digital. If most of your listening today is digital then it is already compressed and somewhat attenuated, but that does not mean vinyl is 'better'. A whole slew of considerations is added here right from the vinyl pressing quality, through the stylus, pre-amp, etc. But my point is 'digital' music when it arrives in our ear has already 'lost' some of its initial musical integrity, so as you mentioned, get a system that works for you and enjoy your music. Use other opinions to guide you and not make you a pretentious music snob. I hope I have not been too disrespectful of others, but you and your reviews have bankrupted me, but enriched my dwindling hearing enjoyment of my cherished music. Thank you Sir and your group's opinions for your wonderful advice. Keep up the great work!
HiFi is endlessly amusing. Sometimes it's funny haha; mostly it's funny peculiar. Comments online are like going through trailer park dumpsters. There might be something in there worth keeping but it's very hard to find -- and it's unlikely you will. And it's surrounded by smelly stuff that should be discarded for good reasons. [This comment included.]
On a (typically?) nitty note:
"Timbre (pronounced TAM-ber) is the tone color or texture of a sound. It’s the quality of sound that lets you tell the difference between two instruments playing the same note."
Mistaking it is like describing electricity in 'vilts' and 'umps' and 'poems.'
"Timber" is what you yell before a cut tree falls on someone nearby.
As to measurements versus musical taste: why wouldn't there be huge differences? But, measurements are the closest we can come to accurate, consistent, ever-improving *language for describing and characterizing sound devices.* Warm, v-curved, forward, dry, exciting, and the like don't cut it, and are bull hockey. It would be like describing your house as having a bunch of bedrooms, not quite enough bathrooms, four closets, and a newer couch on a biggish lot with two trees. Doesn't cut it.
As to 2 channel music versus home theatre equipment, why *should* there be any similarity? One does melodies and harmony, the other does talk, crash, boom, zing, and shazam.
That there is some overlap is sonically coincidental. (The possible exceptions are rock concert recordings, which are probably a lot of the boom, zing, twang, etc.)
Anyway, keep on trucking. You're more informative than the vast majority of pundits trying to make a living by preaching to the nave. :)
I find it interesting that we always talk about better. I'm not sure if my more expensive cables make my system sound better but I can tell you for a fact that a set of cheap cables has made my system sound worse.
It introduced audible distortion that I otherwise cannot hear with the fairly modest cables
That's a really interesting observation. I also have noticed that sometimes it's easier to hear a lowering of performance than an improvement. For example: I've made system changes where a new/replacement component was added and my reaction was "I think this might be a little better". Changing back to the 'before' configuration made me feel (about the original set up) "this is DEFINITELY not as good". This is often true with subwoofers - add one and it bumps up the bass a little, take it away and think "OMG - where did all the bass go?".
@@joeburke9061 100% with you here. Even going from relatively poor gear to nice stuff, the difference doesn't feel super impactful (E.g- Old, crappy soundbar to a $700-ish speaker setup), but in hindsight and comparison to said soundbar months down the line, it absolutely sounds like different worlds.
This really speaks to my experience. My first pair of tower speakers were those big Sony SS7000 I got on a fire sale at Frye's. For years I used the cables included in the box, I'm guessing 20guage. I bought better speakers, and some decent 14guage speaker wire. I was playing around, AB-ing stuff, when I realized how bad the manufacturer-included cables had degraded the performance of the Sonys. Now, the Sonys still weren't very good, but it was a night and day change when switching to 14guage wire. I think, like anything else, the better your gear the more benefit you'll get from incremental improvements. I used to think file types (mp3 vs flac) was nonsense, then I bought a DAC. Turns out I just didn't have the gear to capitalize on a relatively small change. If your car is crap, the tires won't register until you rear end someone. Once I bought a decent car, the tires suddenly had a real effect on the feel of the car. I don't care about the car, so I spend my money audio gear instead of tires. Hope the airbags work. I'm kidding. Sort of.
Not flexing here but I've owned integrated amplifiers that sold north of $5,000 retail.
I now have three or four different integrated amplifiers in rotation constantly.
And what I've noticed mostly is the differences. Not which one is better or worse as they are all fairly decent amplifiers in their own right.
We have all heard crappy sounding systems but it is my opinion once you get to a relatively good setup the differences become nuanced.
I have also noticed that listening with intention can change the sound of the same system.
At this point I have settled on a tube amplifier that I built myself and a set of JBL 590 studio
I recently decided to get a budget stereo setup for my music. Before this I used to listen to music almost exclusively on headphones (samson sr850, budget studio headphones). The setup I went for is a pair of dali spektor 2 speakers and an aiyama t9 amp. The music is being played from a raspberry pi with a iqaudio dac attached.
The funny thing is that when I first listened to it I didn't really know what to think other than 'it sounds good'. What I mean to say is that it is (atleast for me) incredibly hard to judge sound quality beyond recognizing obvious flaws in the sound, which aren't present in this setup. I feel the only way I could get an idea of exactly how 'good' my setup sounds it to compare it to a better or worse setup. If someone at the factory would have secretly swapped out the internal components of my budget setup and replaced them with $3000 components, I woudn't know. The reason I point this out is that I feel a lot of audiophile discussions are pointless because they are splitting hairs based on comparison. For example, even if someone can hear the difference between cables, would they be able to hear if the cable they like is currently connected without a side by side comparison with another cable? And if you would swap out the cable the next day, would they be able to notice it has been swapped? I sincerely doubt anyone has ears that sensitive.
The point I am trying to make here is that if the quality of two 'good' setups without obvious flaws cannot be quantified unless they are compared to one another, does it really matter which one you listen to?
The key is to enjoy what sounds good to You! Cables (like anything else) can make a difference. But at my age I wouldn't hear much of a difference. I'm just happy I can still enjoy the music.
I hear you brother, everything over 15K is a mystery to me now, but the real shocker is I cannot hear below ~37hz it just disappears.
To me it seems like at the end of the day our "HEARING" is one of our 5 senses. We seem to accept that what touch feels good, what smells good, what taste good, or what color looks good is totally subjective and we accept that you body may respond to those things differently than mine......but for SOME REASON when it come to the sense of hearing it seems that many audiophile jump ship and just flat out what to TELL YOU what sounds best. All of our ears (frequencies we pick up, how those are transformed to signals in the brain, etc) are different so what might sound great to you can LITERALLY be unpleasant to another.
I've been using WBC balanced, RCA, and speaker cables for about 2 years now and in every case there have been clear improvements in neutrality as I have upgraded to this brand. This is good stuff.
i love music, i have great sounding headphone setup and great passive speaker and amplification setup, it took me 35 years to get it right......total dedication to reading, testing, getting frustrated, being delighted and of course adapting to different trends in media delivery like cassette/vinyl/CD/streaming etc etc........my best advice trust your ears but try and try everything you can.......my best choice over the years to my listening room ? Moving from floorstanders to small standmounts and subwoofer......i can tune the sound to my liking......for me its always the music and my ears......
Just did same thing myself and agree w/you. I always trust my ears first & foremost. I’ve simplified, and I’m loving my music. 👍🏼😎☕️
Being a transformer design engineer for 30 years. I am a sceptical scientific nut also Google did not make me obsolete. It lets people know that I do not give out false or exaggerated numbers. I love it. We should be grateful that we live in this incredible time.
This year will be talked about in a 100 years.
The late great Roger Russell of McIntosh said that 18 gauge wire was good up to 32 feet. He wondered why there was so much wailing and gnashing of teeth over a device that short circuits the output of an amplifier to the input of a speaker. He stated that there could be as much as 100 feet of 28 gauge wire in a woofer voice coil. I use 14 gauge wire myself and quality RCA cables because I don't want to worry about it. My modest surround sound system has NHT fronts, Polk rears, a Klipsch center and a Polk sub. I love the way it sounds.
I don't know if there's any advantage going from say, a hundred dollar cable to a thousand dollar cable, but I definitely noticed a big improvement going from cheap speaker wire to a nice ~$100 set of cables.
You better do not tell it to Mr. Cheap who considers any audio gear above $100 as a "snakeoil rant"
same!
"Audiophiles don't use their equipment to listen to your music. Audiophiles use your music to listen to their equipment"
wise words, and right on the nose
In my youth, we moved houses and I could not find my speaker cables. In the garage, I found solid electrical wire and used it. Sonically, there was a big difference. Likely a slight increase in voltage due to less resistance in solid copper than stranded wire. A different gauge could have been in play, too, but I do not remember. Downside was the cables would not lay flat on the ground and were awkward in the room. Found my speaker cables, replaced the solid wire with the speaker cables and no worse for wear musically. Enjoy the music and movies; quit obsessing with stuff.
@@johnm3544 when changing from DIN cables to rca cables one notices the advantage of a better section but some are just only more expensive
My take in timbre matching speakers: biggest gain is from video games. It’s why I timbre matched my entire bed layer 7.x.4. Not sure what is it about movies, Atmos music or Atmos demo track but I never “heard” the difference in my speakers every time there was 360 panning around. In movies it’s rare that anything ever goes from LCR to surrounds to rear surrounds and back to LCR to really test that.
It became a problem in video games whenever it panned around to my rear surrounds (they were cheaper, different branded/sized ones from my other 5) and I heard the difference anytime it panned to those rear surrounds.
Keep in mind, in video games it’s possible to hear the exact same audio source across speakers by panning around. Example is Nier Replicant there’s an early NPC that sings and plays an instrument in a small plaza who you can use as a sample source and pan around to each speaker and her vocals will come out relative to her position to your character.
Video games are the ones who have the most and more consistent sources of audio that can pan around and the exact same audio being able to more from speaker to speaker.
I think a lot of this cable non-sense is rooted in the placebo effect and needing to justify to oneself spending an inordinate amount money on cables. Speaker placement and finding the right speaker and amp for your listening palette is far more important than the cables you use. But hey, you want to spend $1k or more on cables go ahead.
There are also sometimes people actively selling high end cables. And using nonsensical, snake oil terms. I do recognize a need for friendly discourse on forums, but most of the big argument come over legit scandals.
Back in the late 80s, I had an audiophile friend who had an amazing system. He had turned his 2 1/2-car garage into a listening room and he built his speakers, crossovers, and much of his equipment himself. To this day it’s probably the finest system I’ve ever heard in a personal home. One day he calls me up to say he’s got new cables and wants me to come over and have a listen. So I go to his house and his system sounded amazing still and he showed me the cables he made. They were cheap wire that he bought at the Home Depot. We then decided to go to my house and see how they sounded on my system. I had some much more expensive (by the standard of the day) Monster cable on a pair of Apogee Duettas. We put his cables on the Duettas and the lower end on my system just disappeared and the upper end was thin. What sounded great on his system did not sound great on mine. We then took my cables back to his house to swap them out in his system and his system was diminished. So there you have it. Expensive cables vs cheap cables were entirely dependent on the system you put them in. Money guaranteed nothing. But there was a difference!
Please explain to me what "thin" means. While you are at it, how about a lot of other audio terms like "soundstage" and "depth" and "detail". Did you do a blind comparison? Did you record it? (once again, then you could do a null test). Glad you like your system, that is all that matters.
Leo, I would say that the “thinness” I was describing was that there was a lack of detail and weight. You have asked, for some reason, for me to define some other terms. When I am listening to a well-recorded jazz album, I want to “see” the musicians, as in where they are standing/sitting in relation to each other. That is what I would call the sound stage. Depth is simply the perceived distance from the closest musician to the furthest away. Detail is all that space in between both the musicians and the notes. But that is just me. Your mileage may vary. We did not record the systems nor attempt a blind test. Keep in mind that this was about 35 years ago but the difference (to both of us) was apparent. I no longer have that system but it was decent.
As a retired scientist and a lover of listening to music, I believe if someone is making claims about a product, they need to prove it in a scientific way using the scientific method. In science, you don't get published in reputable journals with subjective research. An audio engineer helped me with my first real stereo system in the early 80s. I had set up and been a DJ for a couple of years before meeting this guy and thought I knew everything(wrong). He was kind enough to spend the time to let me listen to my favorite music over a number of different systems and different speaker cables when the subject came up. Not a lot of choices back then but I did listen to copper lamp cord and his best cables. He showed me his measurements of the cables and told me that, in the audible range, there is virtually no difference. He introduced me to the concept of diminishing returns and biases. Unfortunately, the human mind can be convinced of just about anything on any topic. I really appreciate what you are doing.
#1 - Cables matter to a point. You need "good enough" cables to get the electrical sound transmission to the speakers so as you increase distance you need to increase the gauge and have wire that can carry that signal. After that the best speaker cables are choked at the speaker by what the wires are in the speakers which aren't high end by any means. So yes to a point but unless your rewiring everything it's snake oil for the most part.
a lot of people have a out-of-sight-out-of-mind mentality...Especially when it comes to power cords and speakers like you mentioned!
This is why I want to build one of those cheap Parts Express C-note speaker kits and swap out the parts in one of speakers with higher quality internals and compare it to the other speaker using the factory parts, to see if there's a difference.
There's a Cuban gentleman here on RUclips with him building a pair of those c-note speakers using additional braces and he mentioned that there was a noticeable difference in the reduction of resonance. Sometimes taking the time to use better parts and design features makes a difference.
Agreed, it’s more important that the cable isn’t outright terrible or bad in quality. My take on the high end market for cables: if cable quality mattered for interference reasons, quality, etc wouldn’t audiophiles want the same cables they use in highly sensitive measurement science instruments?
Honestly kinda surprised the cable industry hasn’t tried to peddle something like low-background copper wire to prevent radiation from interfering with the audio/electrical signal.
Well stated.
I am not picking a fight here, but (hopefully) applying logic.
If you recognise the differences between cables, but then suggest the actual effect is limited by cables inside the speakers,, then that is not snake oil, it is a limit on the audible effect.
And if you accept the limit placed by the cabling inside the speakers, you are by that very comment, a cable "believer".
Re cables: The termination is arguably more important than the cable itself. A loose connection on any cable is bad news. Bare wire is great because you can really crank down on it, but it's a little fiddly if you are swapping things out frequently. Spades are my least fav, because they are the same work as bare wire to tighten, but can fall out easier. A compression or locking banana plug is a good compromise. Match or exceed the gauge you need relative to the length and ohms, make sure it's ofc copper, and you're good. Other materials are fine, but the charts I've found on cable gauge all use copper. 12 gauge will cover 4ohm up to 60ft, double for 8ohm, and easy to terminate.
Copper is better than CCA, but upcharges for OFC is likely snake oil. Copper oxides are still very conductive, and most copper is technically OFC (i.e. high purity) anyway. Apparently it's not worth it for refiners to run another production line to output cheaper impure copper.
Crash is correct and thanks for pointing that out. Only reason I said ofc is because it's easier to ensure you are NOT getting cca. A lot of budget speaker wire doesn't even specify, so looking for ofc copper ensures you get the real deal. But yes, no reason to get ofc copper over pure copper, it just happens to be easier to find search results for 'ofc copper' tbh.
@@crash.override Copper oxides may be conductive, but they act as (poor) diodes, which also are conducive, but more so in one polarity than the other.
I'm kind of like Randy in that I sit somewhere in the middle. I bought a pair of Meze Audio 99 Classics and though they sounded nice, they were a bit rolled off on the top end end of the frequency spectrum for my taste. I had read that getting the silver headphone cable to replace the stock copper one could add some top end clarity to the 99 Classics. I decided to buy it and did many swaps back and forth with the stock cable and silver cable with some of my favorite CDs and I feel like I did hear a small difference in the high end frequencies (emphasis on small). I wouldn't say it was a monumental difference by any stretch but it did seem to re-introduce some of the top end I felt was lacking with the 99 Classics.
The best way I can describe it was that the silver cable seemed to have more frequencies residing on the "top portion of the earcup" (more trebly frequencies) that gave me the impression of more clarity in vocals and cymbals but not harshly so. In comparison, the stock copper cable seemed to have more frequencies residing in the "center" and towards the bottom of the earcup (thus, their warm sound) and less in the "top" which gave a "darker" sound. I wouldn't say the difference I think I heard was some sort of jaw dropping revelation as some would claim but whatever difference the silver cable did make, I like listening to the 99 Classics even more so now. Just my two cents for the conversation :).
I'm in the pro audio business, and I can say with a decent amount of certainty that WBC are as good as any cable needs to be... although... sometimes I buy AudioQuest Evergreen cables because green is my favorite color :)
Great minds think alike. Evergreen for the win!
I would even go one up from there Audioquest cinnamon because I love cinnamon toast crunch cereal 🥣
Nothing wrong with a little jewelry fo the rig💍
If only WBC made their cables green they could get more business. I just saw a video on WDC. It looks like they use high-quality parts at a budget price. That's good enough for me.
LOL. Yeah, I like Evergreen too. They match my Auditorium 23 speaker cables and I live a few blocks from the bridge they're named after... Good a reason as any.
I'm using 12 gauge speaker wire off the spool at a buddy's car audio shop with some cheap gold plated spades,
I worked in home av for 20 years, sounds just fine to me
Here's a topic to discuss, with a speaker you have lived with for a long time, once loved and you find you are getting bored/tired with it, rather than trying to upgrade for maybe marginal improvements, sound signature differences, etc., why not find a speaker that cleanses the palette, something with a similar SQ but a step or two below your main driver in most performance regards.
I have this arrangement and find I really like going back to my main drivers after doing this, also, the smaller, lesser speaker may even be preferred for late night listening for a more relaxed sound rather than more extreme dynamic shifts, etc. I do enjoy both however.
That's just like the trick with hiding half the toys from my kids and bringing them out six months later. They are so excited to see them again!
I have to give you a big thank you for your level headed advice on audiophile stuff. I have a perfectly good system I’ve been enjoying for 20 years. I watch a lot of RUclips videos and get all excited to get a new system, new cable or new speakers; then I watch your videos and figure out how to properly use what I have and root out the crud. Thanks again.
I believe cables make a difference but usually just not that bigger difference! Biggest ever difference I ever heard was with speaker cables. I switched from some Amazon budget 2.5mm2 cable to some Van Damme 6mm2 cable. It was honestly like night and day! It was like there was a turbo switch and a mega bass switch on the side of the speakers that I had only just noticed! Fully, deeper, richer sound!! But then I switched from my budget Amazon RCA cable to Audioquest Red River RCA cables. So £10 cables to £70 cables! The Red River were slightly better.... can't quite put my finger on why but definitely better. The a m8 of mine brought round some £250 Van Du Hul RCA cables(sorry can't remember which variant) and I could hear zero difference!
Since then my experience with cables has been pretty much that. Switch from budget cables to lower end intermediate cable and hear a slight difference! Switch from low end intermediate to mid or high end Intermediate ... no difference. I have a 2K amp, maybe if I had a 20k amp I'd hear a difference!!?? I never heard high end cables so can't comment on them. I've seen 20k interconnects on the internet...seems crazy to me but maybe if your system is worth 250K+ these cables may have a place!!??
I also think speaker measurements are vital when doing speaker design, but also important when choosing a speaker to listen to. Knowing what area of the frequency response is emphasized and how the bass rolls off are the most important things I look for and let me know if they might be a speaker I'd enjoy or not.
When I first started putting together my hifi system I ran simple, cheap speaker wire. After getting my components the way I wanted them, I watched a few videos and decided to try upgrading the cables. I bought some BJC Ten White speaker cables, plugged them in, and was very pleased with the difference. The sound was way more open without becoming tinny. I then tried the interconnects, comparing between BJC and WBC. I decided that I preferred the BJC as the WBC sounded to me more compressed. I tried a few USB cables and they made no difference at all, so I stuck with the cheap Mediabridge USB B printer cable. Thank you, Amazon, for your easy return policy.
I used to sell high end audio and have owned stupidly expensive gear in the past. I will share something I noticed years ago. The legacy reviewing entities (print, the NYC audio mafia, etc.) push the high end myths because it helps them garner advertising funds and lots of expensive free gear. Pushing these "high end" myths also salves their egos and lets them feel superior to the unwashed masses. I know and have known several of these well-known reviewers and most are intolerable blow-hards. I am not as impressed with them as they are with themselves. The bottom lines is; "Does it make you happy?"
I got interested in Hifi gear because I love music. A good song is a good song whether it is on a $10,000 system or your car radio. You can still get pleasure from it.
I agree that WBC are very good. I prefer Mogami. I have seen that brand in dozens of recording studios. Cables don't have to be expensive just well shielded with good connectors. For speaker wire, I do use 10AWG OFC and have for years. I think that using quality cables is taking care of small issues before they appear. They can provide some peace of mind. Kind of like buying Michelins over some inexpensive tire. They both do the same job but, which gives you more confidence on the road?
The reason why there has always been hundreds of speaker companies is that everybody likes something a bit different either in sound quality or cosmetic appearance. Sorry for the diatribe.
Final note: I understand measurements. It gives the consumer some reference point to help make a decision, but it is like 0-60mph times. Does it make a difference in our daily lives that my car or your car can do 0-60 in 7 seconds? Not really. Also it is pretty well known that most people can't hear THD at less than 2%. Again how does it impact the real world? When I started in audio it was during the receiver power wars and of course more was always better. Unfortunately speakers don't run on watts per say they run on AC current, so not even that is an indication of quality. All of this is and should remain a subjective issue. I am done.
I agree on all points. Something I heard a long time ago that (I think) may be true is that we measure what we know how to measure, not necessarily what matters the most. I don't want to upset any engineers out there, but this seems plausible to me. I think we still fall short on the correlation between measurements and how they relate to what we actually hear.
i too, am a michelin man.
@@shitsandwich1983 Nice to meet you Bibendum. We should have a drink!
@@joeburke9061 I very much like how you put that. So true. Measurements on amp power were so crazy in the 70's that the FTC had to step in. So what value were those measurements?
well said 👍
Timbre matching seems to be the correct way to go IMHO. After experiencing home theater with first bookshelf speakers as a center channel, then a mix and match set of speakers, I finally purchased a set specifically for home theater - Onkyo - I finally heard home theater properly. Since then, I've made certain my speakers are indeed timbre matched.
Here's what convinced me: Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. The opening symphonic music had more power and presence with timber matched speakers, and when the Klingon moon explodes in the distance, and the soundwave moves from the upper right hand corner and engulfs you. Then theres the quiet scene when Captain Sulu makes his log entry while sipping tea when the wave hits his ship. The voices as he shouts commands above the rumble and chaos are clear and concise.
Hi I'm the crippled Audio Man and I like this video my neighbor recently moved of living in the house for 78 years he was into hi-fi ham radio they throw away a thousand feet a speaker cable shielded copper I love it everything in my systems are used to that it sounds fantastic you don't have to spend any money if you dumpster dive have a great day bye
I visit many online forums/channels discussing a wide range of topics. Topics from home audio, personal computers, politics, religion, spirituality, our history, the size and shape of our planet and others. I have noticed a slow shift from pure vitriol debates on topics to a more honest discussion on the nuances of the topics. Many are realizing they have more in common than not and are more willing to respect the perspectives of others. Of course there are those who are still stuck in the old collectivism of group think and are having difficulty shaking it. In fact, many are realizing that how you exchange ideas is every bit, if not more important, than the topic itself.
You sure covered a mess of ground, in a short video.
Well written. Very well spoken.
Walking through a minefield, and determined to enjoy it.
Really very well done. You have alot to say, we all do. You have an audience because you deserve it!
Don't ever change. Please.
QOTD:
A) Wires & Cables: For me, I think if you have a good thick speaker cable, 10 AWG, that is 99% copper, I think you are good. I never owned anything else.
B) Measurements: I care little about measurements, I ask myself, how does it sound? What kind of music do I listen to and will that play well on the speaker?
C) I like good speakers that best represent the sound, I don't care how big they are.
D) For home theatre, I would prefer my center channel to be the same brand and line as the left and right channels. However, I don't think using a different branded channel, is a huge issue. It just may need to be tweaked more than if it was from the same line.
Keep it up buddy. Rock on!
Loved hearing your views! Wonderful to see you crossing 100K soon. I’m not as regular a viewer as I would like to be, but I have such a good feeling about your work. Wishing you 500k subs in the not too distant future. You deserve.
I personally love the Caintuck Bestsy speaker. No crossovers, open back. I auditioned them in my home and thought my Klipsch speakers were broken. They’re the only ones in my experience that darn near disappear. I’d love to see you review them. BTW, I really enjoy your channel. I got the Aiyima A07 and put the Sparkos op amps in it to see what you were talking about. Wow! Now I recommend that set up for my friends that are starting out or want a small secondary system.
Measurements are fantastic place to start - something that we can correlate to our listening. A $20 cable can measure much better than a cheap cable, and it seems that plenty of people agree that they sound better. However, $200 cables do not measure better. Power cables are definitely a place that is not wise to spend a lot as the signal doesn’t travel through it and power is conditioned in drastic ways after the current travels through it. Speakers would seem to have the largest skew in measurements, so measurements are a great way to be pointed to a particular sound that you might like as those types of speakers should sound similar. As you point out, different types of amps have different sounds based on the types of harmonics that are meant to be there. So the type of SINAD and/or THD need to be categorized, so that we can be pointed to the type of amp sound that we like. Measurements help define what we like so that we can compare through measurements vs a lot of colorful language.
Thanks for your suggestion for the Sith Audio Banana Plug Lube! My speakers don't complain anymore. After I lube the plug the speakers just purr. 😉
RCA cables: as long as they are well built with proper RF shielding and good materals you won't hear any difference between a $20 pair or $2000 pair. It's an audiophile placebo.
You left out my favorite. Audiophile power cords! I can't say what I think of these because of your comment rules for this video 😉🤣
Cheapaudioman, I enjoy your channel and content! Thanks! I have a relatively "modest" audio system. I opted for 12ga oxygen free wires... (mostly because during a remodel, I wanted to put a high quality product in my walls so that I would not regret it later if I had "skimped out") also, I did not want to break the bank. I have a very modest Yamaha v385 A/V amp that seems to be more than enough to fill my entire first floor with sound. on an audio scale of 1-100, I usually listen on 35 and jack it up to 75 when I am really rocking. Frankly more than that is too loud for my enjoyment. NOW, HERE IS WHERE I WENT A LITTLE ROGUE... I decided to go with "no name" in-wall/in-ceiling speakers (Acoustic Audio). These were VERY inexpensive full range speakers. I spent approx $300 for L,C,R, SL, SR, SBL and SBR. Really $300 for all of those speakers. (Pretty insane IMO) But had gotten great reviews. Knowing that I could replace these speakers (relatively easy, most inwall speakers are roughly the same size. (finger crossed) LOL!) with better known speakers if things did not work out as planned. To support these very basic speakers I opted to use 2 powered subwoofers... again, I went budget and chose the PSW10 s (Polk Audio 10 inch)
I configured the Yamaha cross over at 90hz to send the deeper freqs to the subs and the higher freqs to the wall/ceiling speakers. I can honestly tell you that I am very happy with the sound. my family and friends comment on how excellent the systems sounds. All in all, I am not comparing my configuration to systems that cost many thousands of dollars more than mine. But, I will say, if you plan your system out, consider the room it will occupy, you do not need to spend a fortune to experience great sound. I wonder if I had spent more on my inwall/ceiling speakers, if the sound would be better? hmm I honestly don't know. But I don't think I care enough to spend all that money to find the answer. ~peace
I used to think that I needed very expensive, “perfect” gear and I believed every word my audiophile friends told me about it. This was silly especially when I didn’t have a lot of $$. Now that I can afford that gear, I had to struggled to buy in the past; I will pass this on, buy good gear you can afford because the expensive gear is not worth stressing over - it is just about the music enjoyment, for me. Also, I find it sad that today it is nearly impossible to listen to any gear, except some high end gear at the few high end stores available. I miss hi-fi shops with lots of products to check-out.
I miss the old stereo stores as well. I used to spend a lot of time looking over all the gear in those stores. Drooling over the new hot stuff, while trying to save up money for the models I could afford.
"Also, I find it sad that today it is nearly impossible to listen to any gear, except some high end gear at the few high end stores available." Absolutely agree! I understand in this day we are in it's just hard to move enough high end products to have stores for them...but man it would be nice.
I'm with you that I'm willing to spend $20-$50 on cables for their built quality. I don't expect to get a "better" sound from it though.
Yes, there are differences in cables regarding how they effect SQ, however slight and at certain frequency ranges, and I am willing to explore cables whether interconnects and/or speaker cables...but not with insane pricing and margins.
Please explain in technical terms how.
yes there is.. it's just INAUDIBLE! neither you nor any human alive or who has ever lived is able to tell apart 2 speaker cables with their gargantuan 0,01db influence on the frequency response of a speaker. and that's an undeniable fact
Thank you Randy, great way to start a discussion. I can remember buying equipment with the cheap interconnects with the red and white ends and wonder do people use these to hook up their equipment. I may not need the best interconnects, but I want better than that.
Speaker Cables: I used to work in a HiFi shop in the 80's. We had two identical systems set up for this exact purpose. One system was cabled with the cheap, thin stuff you could strip with your front teeth (don't try this at home) or "Bell Wire" as we used to call it. It cost about 15p per foot. The other used QED 79-Strand and this was an order of magnitude more expensive - about £1.50 per foot. There were definite sonic improvements with the QED stuff and I mean definitely better and yes, definitely worth the extra spondoolies. In my opinion (and only my opinion) it's worth upgrading speaker cable and the sweet spot is probably around £100 for a typical install. Beyond that, there's probably more to be had but you're into the laws of diminishing returns. Spending £1000 won't get you ten times the improvement?
Agee , If you had $1000 system spending $ 100 on interconnects ,usb , power and speaker cables is not over the top . Also these cables will work well as or if you decide to upgrade your equipment. So spending $ 10,000 on cables for a $100,000 dollar setup would be ok to. But as Randy was saying one would need a acoustically designed listening room to justify having a $100,000 setup in the first place .
I've gone 2.1 with bookshelves for my computer, and for my entertainment setup. I like bookshelves because they're cheaper than towers and more flexible for bass management with a good sub. That said, I really want to try other types of speakers. I wanted to check out LRSs but I'm pretty sure my cats would shred them. I also want to check out some Zus or Tektons, and I want to give some Polk R600s a shot. Wouldn't turn down some Fortes either. Sadly car maintenance is going to eat up all the extra funds for a while.
Finally!! Someone suggesting we have a civil discussion about these issues. For context, I'm 62 and have been into audio since the age of 14. I'm no professional reviewer but have heard so many systems between Axpona, dealerships and homes. I know this and a few bucks will get you a cup of coffee, I'm certainly no expert.
1) Cables CAN make a difference from RCA to XLR to Speakers and yes, even digital signal cables. I had a friend bring over a USB specialty audio cable to put in my system and I heard a difference. They don't always but definitely can. And there is an outrageous markup on the boutique brands which I think is a big part of the issue as to why some people have such negative opinions about them.
2) Measurements are important to a degree but as Randy said Tube equipment measures like a sack of crap. As I like to say, I listen with my ears, brain and sometimes heart, not a protractor and a lab coat.
3) My home theater speakers are not Timbre matched. I have a 7.4 system and to attempt to Timbre match 11 speakers would be nearly impossible. I think if your front 3 are at least very similar in design and sound, it's fine. I heard a system with big horn loaded speakers flanking a much smaller traditional MTM cc speaker that was placed too low and that was bad.
4) Imaging is very important to me. Getting good speakers to image well in a dedicated space where they can be properly positioned and sound absorption/diffusion panels can be placed is much easier to accomplish than a shared, wide open room. Compromises often need to be made in those areas.
5) I have floor standing speakers at the moment in my main system but have had bookshelf speakers over the years. I've had ribbons, horns and still have a pair of speakers with HEIL tweeters. A better design from the crossovers to the cabinets and of course drivers wins imo.
1) I agree with the analog cables, but digital is digital. Sure, if you have a really crappy cable (analog or digital), it might have retransmissions or pick up interference, but digital will wait for the bit-perfect (not lossy) data to be transmitted and received before going into a DAC/etc. The only thing I can think of happening with you hearing worse-quality audio with a digital cable is something kinda like how streaming services auto-negotiate the bit stream based on your connection quality, maybe?
I agree with all your other points though :)
@@boomertsfx1 Your point is well taken and maybe it was a placebo effect but I swear I heard a little bit of a difference. More chest and the vocals if that makes any sense.
@@boomertsfx1 The problem is that a digital signal in a wire is actually an analogue square wave switching between two voltages...therefore timing is key for the correct reconstruction of the analogue waveform and the construction and impedance matters. 🙂
The more you spend on Coffee the better it tastes too! ;) I agree with all your points, audio flavour and body of the sound, be it a little bit of second harmonic or third if that's your gig, the same way as a little floral or spiciness is important in your Coffee.
I run a very budget setup, one that’s cost me maybe $150 in total, and in the process I’ve hunted down great products to help get the sound I like. That’s been cables, sockets, speaker wire, equipment, etc. I can say I found monster cable and it’s equivalent far better than your standard cheap wire- much more space and depth. And decent equipment powered directly and surely- a solid connection and no ground loop. For speaker wire I’ve always used 12 gauge since the 14ga wire was too brash and lacked good bass response to my ears. That all said I run an old budget nakamichi CD player, a basic Yamaha amp, and a vintage pioneer turntable. All rebuilt and slightly “tuned” to taste. Paired with a 90s set of KLH bookshelf speakers it’s been pleasant. Reviews and discussions like you open up have made my audio journey enjoyable and budget friendly. Thank you!
My great Yoda
Go 2 weeks with a phone and TV. Not even ear buds. Your stuff will give you many eargasims again. I'm 11 days and spending 12 hours a day watching you.
Gratitude and acceptance that this is an amazing disease are vital.
Your humor matches mine.
Thank you for all of your knowledge, wit and passion.
Get out of your comfort zone and listen to great words of wisdom from our great actors
Robin Williams, Denzel, almost endless list.
I'm insane and newly sober
I did switch from the old traditional wire on a spool for some speaker cables that were advertised as O2 free copper and a pair of Schitt 6” RCA cables for my Node, did notice a difference and spent around 50.
Randy I watch your videos like I used to watch reruns of Motorweek. It’s comfort food. Hell, if I was bedridden and stricken, I would rest with a steady diet of you and Zeos (well, Zeos from the old apartment). It’s been awesome watching you and your channel ascend in the past year+. I hope you continue to be the reasonable, diplomatic audiophile as you get more RUclips powerful!
The biggest take away from this video is let's not fight on who's right but help people get started enjoying their music. Then give them your opinion and let them make up their own minds. Some people don't even want to go down the rabbit hole. They just want to enjoy the music and that's what's the most important ENJOYMENT.
Well said 👍
When I put together a HiFi system last year - my first in 25 years - I'd mistakenly placed an order (in haste) for 12 AWG CFA speaker wire, as opposed to OFC, and this nagged at me for months. Eventually I succumbed and dove down the rabbit hole and replaced it with a regarded brand of 12 AWG OFC speaker wire. I can't say with any certainty I could hear a difference - I *imagine* I do - but I can say it raised my confidence level in the system as I no longer considered the speaker wire as a weak link in the set-up. Not particularly rational, but it did help me be less uptight. So, worth it to me - did not spend a stupid amount on the OFC wire - around 100 USD - mostly due to the legth of the cable runs.
I enjoyed this, great points! I’ve tried several interconnects and speaker wires, they make a difference, but nothing magical like some people make it seem. I think some people get stuck on purchasing different cabling when the problem may just be the speakers themselves that need to be changed.
Agree completely. I have some lower priced Audioquest interconnects that are going on 30 years old that only need replacing because they have become somewhat loose on the RCA posts. So I may experiment a little, nothing crazy😊
#2 - Frequency ratings can give a guideline of what the speaker SHOULD sound like to help you choose a speaker that might have more bass, might have better top end, V shaped, U shaped..... It will never tell you how that speaker will sound in your room.
Forums 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Sounds like the presidents speech in Mars Attacks, “Why can’t we all be friends? Let’s get along”
Cue blaster to the face.
I agree with your assessments, Randy. While the Law of Diminishing Returns certainty apply to many makes of audio gear (or any type of product, really) there can be found audible differences in similarly priced products. Speakers certainly, and yes, even cables and interconnects. More expensive doesn't necessarily buy better quality.
Specifications don't tell the WHOLE story, but they do tell an important part. For one, they hold a manufacturer's feet to the fire to product consistent quality and gives the consumer recourse if a product underperforms. But again, sometimes a piece of gear with impressive specs (and a high price tag) won't sound nearly as good as the one with lackluster specs and a modest price tag. But we all know that but sometimes a truism needs to be repeated.
Btw - I really like your "just the guy next door" approach to audio gear! Keep up the great work you do!
Soundstage and imaging is probably of tertiary concern after clarity and frequency response. However, to me, once you hit a certain price level the biggest difference is in soundstage and imaging. The main reason I went from my kef q350s to my amphions was sound stage and imaging.
Most people I know like different genres of music. Theres a sweet spot from a favourite bunch of songs, or albums that make the listener go back to that album again and again. A crash of a symbol, or a high note that gets the hairs on the neck standing up. So what's my point. My point is that measurements don't always hit that sweet spot. Something imperfect, MAY sound better than something which measures perfectly. The individuals ears tell the true story. Theres a bit in Don't stop me now, by queen, where towards the end, the electric guitar goes bananas for about 2 seconds. But that sweet spot is so important to that song. I want it to jump out and grab me. I'll listen to a bunch of speakers and find the ones that'll do that to that song, plus many others. If the speakers give me what my ears want, I don't care how they measure. 🙂
Great video Randy. I am of two minds on this. The voices on on the left side of my head say that cables and measurements matter. The voices right side of my head tell me that they don’t. I’ve never had a good sound stage between the voices in my head. When they start shouting, I’ll take one of my special pills and then go to bed for the rest of the day.
😂👍
Your approach to handling these "touchy" subjects is admirable. In many things today, differences are viewed as wrong, which makes everything wrong, right? A very sensible and human way to discuss differences, audio or otherwise. Well done. I once traded a Ted Williams baseball card for a battery powered 8 track player and two AC/DC tapes and NOTHING sounded better to me.
I agree with you on pretty much everything. With #5 I prefer large box speakers with a sub. Klipsch, in fact. Mainly because I like rock and pop at a louder level, though they do well with symphonic stuff as well. I've got along with smaller speakers and a sub as well. It's all good and depends on what you like. Some may not like my system, but I probably wouldn't like theirs either. Different tools for the job.
All of the things matter, generally with some degree of diminishing return, until you finally wind up in snake oil territory.
Inductance, capacitance, resistance, resonance, vibration and a bunch of other -ance's and -tion's all have an impact on the final thing that makes your ear bones wiggle.
There is a synergy (or lack there of) in the assembly of components being used that gets altered with every modification we make. Not to mention age, temperature, humidity and all the other factors effecting our listening experiences.
Personally what's been the most fun about this channel is the diversity of "new to me" products that I've now spent countless hours chasing down digital rabbit holes.
Randy's evaluations have slowly made him a trusted broker in audio value assessment that has carried some weight in my own personal assessment of equipment. I've never met the man, he's simply a talking picture on screen, but his approach and "for the people" attitude feel genuine, honest even, and I'm hoping he can persist in that role as the pressures that come with success begin to add up.
Having used everything that conducts as speaker wire, solid copper that is well constructed, sufficiently gauged for length, durable enough for application, is my go to. Choice narrowed by the dollars I allotted at the time, of course. $100 is a reasonable top end. My normal budget is around 40 on no name. Either I like them, or they go into the random wire, charger, and jamboree tote in the attic.
Specs, measurements, reviews all have their place. After getting to understand each, they can provide a context to buyers who have few if any opportunities to listen to stereo equipment like we used to.
The speaker design is easy. The best designs are transmission line or are horns with the word Avantgarde written on them somewhere. 😁 Neil knows and he is cool.
"The mid-90's Monster-Cables reference series interconnects are the best i've owned....easy to ear the difference.....Never see such gain since.....I have an Actinote and Bis audio silver today and not change really the sound....need an old Monster reference 90's..."
Oxen and wainrope couldn’t pull me into those toxic forums. As Andrew Robinson says, the only one who needs to like my system is me!
I agree 100% with your assessment of liking a dip in the 1800 to 2000 hz range. I first realized this when I put Focal Access Components in my first higher end car stereo. They seemed so harsh until I lowered 2k a few db on the EQ, which was all the difference in the world!
I am a strong believer that tweeter/midrange type makes a big difference in the sound. Those were Aluminum Tweeters in those Focals.
By the same token, I sold my Warfdale Evo 4.2's after 2-3 months as my primary Living Room speaker because my ear often felt attacked at certain upper midrange frequencies. And although they were one of the clearest and most analytic speakers I've ever heard, music and HT sound track just didn't sound right to me. Since I've enjoyed Martin Logan and Emotiva AMT's quite a bit, I assume the forward nature of that mid range dome was the primary culprit. I sold them before your review, where you pointed out exactly how I felt, specifically when the mid-range was right at ear level, which mine were. I ended up with Klipsch RP-280's in that room instead, converting to towers with a more party/HT sound to them. No regrets there. Though I do have a 2dB or so dip across all the highs on the Klipsch, as they're a bit trebly out of the box. The shape of the curve is nice, it's just too much, so I bring down everything from about 2k to 10k, then give it a tiny boost in some of the mid's and bass frequencies.
Hey Randy, good effort to produce a civil debate. On cables, they made a huge difference in my systems. The most irritating sonic characteristic of my main system was one of ringing in the high frequencies.
It manifested itself as sibilance in anything with forward treble. Having spent what I had, this was seriously disappointing. Then I tried swapping interconnects and speaker cables. The main difference was that I swapped silver plated OFC copper from The Chord Co. for Mogami pure OFC. Wow, the difference was huge. So much more bass and the treble extension was actually improved but the ringing was gone.
By the way, I suspect the spell checker is having some fun with you. Hearing you talking about “timber” matching home cinema gear had me chortling away. Were they all oak, or cherry perhaps 🤣🤣 ? I can say for sure that matching the “timbre” may be a more productive move. 😄
Finally, did you miss one. What about bi-wiring? Always worked for me but I know it upsets some folk.
One thing too about the Mogami wire, they supply actual measurements of each sku they manufacture. Most recording studios use Mogami or Canare wire, if it works there, why would it not be the best choice for my system?
Ignorance and being closed minded are part of life and always need to be mindful of.
Some people are too closed minded to realize they are closed minded.
Only fools argue out of ignorance and prejudice. Most humans are fools.
It's none of my business what people think of me or my tastes. Ego makes people too stupid to wake up and be humble. It takes 10,000 hours to be an expert on any given topic. I'm obsessed with most scientific topics.
Thank you
God bless civil adult conversation! I wish I had any scientific knowledge to understand a lot more, but I don’t, I’ve got ears and I mainly use them. I’ve tried well reviewed stuff, less well reviewed stuff, things suggested on forums, cheap cables, expensive cables, stuff that measures well and stuff that measures bad.
What I like might not be what other people like, and that’s because we all have different priorities and tastes I guess. I can hear a difference between two pieces of gear, are they cables or amps or speakers or phono cartridges. And if I don’t I’ll have the cheaper one thank you.
Randy you are great btw, love your attitude, your goals with this channel are all well deserved.
I've personally found once I got to the point where an upgrade to my system means spending $2k or more, but I felt the itch to upgrade, I bought cables. Any cable I purchased was through amazon (for returns) but I felt the upgrade was certainly worth it and I did not return anything.
Timber matching in home theatre speakers is vital. I bought an oak centre and rosewood fronts and my wife went ballistic.
Thank you!
Im so glad your asking these questions and inviting our comments.
Ive been attempting to reach out to you about this question for a few weeks on your live streams.
I bought some equipment based almost entirely on your recommendations and the size of my office.
Denon AVR S540BT
Jamo 803
Jamo 808
Now I’m looking into adding the 2nd sub.
Im missing some of those lower frequencies.
Can I, or should I get the 810?
Or go even bigger with more power?
More importantly will the mismatched subs conflict with each other?
Im thinking…that having a small sub and a big sub will be perfect to get the super low frequencies while maintaining the higher bass frequencies between 80-150Hz.
I like those high bass notes to be strong in the mix.
Im always missing some of those notes, like in the song:
Use me
By: Bill Withers.
I still have all of this equipment but no longer have the room to have it all hooked up. I had large horn speakers with 15" woofers and a 18" powered subwoofer. All from a company called Bag End. I was using flea powered 300B monoblock tube amps on the 103db sensitivity speakers. Had to see for myself if i could hear a difference when the usually 1k+ Acoustic Zen Hologram ii's were available used for $300. So i picked them up and put them in the system. Those things are never going anywhere. What is going on or why i don't have a clue. I can hear details in all areas that no way was i hearing before, especially in the mids.
I still use those cables on my Mirage OM12's and they make a difference there as well. Prior i was just using some 12 gauge cable and thought it was good. I had moved and dug the Acoustic Zen's out of storage just to try with these newly acquired Mirage's(used for $100). They fit my new apartment so i tried them. They are awesome omnidirectional speakers and they were quite the score for my taste. The Acoustic Zen's brought out things with these speakers as well. The name definitely sounds pretentious, and i get that, but the sound is definitely there for my ears! No way in heck would i swap back to my old cables. I'm not mr. money bags so i wish cheap cables sounded the same. In my experience alas, this has not been the case. Did i have to spend that much money? I dunno. I may have been happy with cheaper cables but i got these and they sound fantastic and i don't want to mess around with the sauce.
Also picked up some SVS Soundpath speaker wire to replace the cheaper wire i was using at my desktop. That also was a very nice sonic upgrade to my ears. Much easier on the wallet as they were only $100 for the pair and hey....they look really perty too! :)
The End
It's always beneficial to have some decent cables. The more transparent speakers you're playing, the more influence on overall quality you'll hear between 5$ and 100$ OFC speaker cables. The same rule is applicable in terms of IC cables.
And most importantly - the room can ruin everything or take the experience to the next level. In the flat I'm currently renting I've got a bit of sound level increase around the range of 58-65 Hz which surprisingly makes listening very pleasurable. When listening to Chocolate Chip Trip (which became my no.1 tune to evaluate stereos after watching one of your recent videos, Randy) I can feel the sofa trembling when the drums appear after 2 minutes mark.
For someone, who would like flat frequency response, this would be not acceptable. But on the other hand everyone listening to my stereo with eyes shut say that the chimes are here and there and transition of sounds from one side to another is happening not only in a flat line, but some of the sounds are traveling on a path like infinity sign. And they like that the sofa is shaking a bit.
The above can't be achieved with the cheap af cables. I still have the first IC and speaker cables (which weren't cheap) used with this combination of amp and speakers and the degradation of imaging is almost a butt pain when I switch to them to show the difference.
Nowadays you can get a cheap and decent sounding stereo and you've proven it many times - I've checked some of the combos you presented here and I confirm it works. The guidance provided by you is very reliable but I was wondering if you thought about an episode of "cheap audio dos and donts" or "follow these steps so you can ruin your listening experience easily"?
I once made the mistake of mentioning on a forum that I noticed a difference bi-wiring my Klipsch RP-600M’s. The amount of vitriol that came my way was insane. I can only imagine how unhappy those people are in life.
I agree with many of the people here who believe in diminishing returns of cable. I also think it depends on the equipment you use. If you’re running a $30k amp using high grade cable, you’re likely to see an improvement if you don’t use cheap garbage cable. Cable like Worlds Best Cable, or Blue Jeans Cable, are not crazy pricey, and probably represent all one really needs in that area for most systems.
I like what you said at 8:17. "I know they don't measure flat. That's alright. I like them."
Cables, years ago cambridge audio made interconnects, Atlantic (red) least expensive, Pacific (yellow) mid, Arctic (green) most expensive.
So for tape to amp I used Atlantic.
Tuner to amp I used pacific and CD to amp Arctic was used .
This made it easier to know what was going on in the back of my amp.
In my experience speaker wire/connections and interconnects matter. I was not a believer until a friend gave me some Kimber Kable 8tc with some really nice banana plug connectors. Everything just sounded better, cleaner with more air. My teenage son noticed the difference immediately and asked me what I did to make it sound more detailed. I am still not sure if it was the cable or the better tighter fit of the new connectors either way I was proven wrong in my original thought cables didn’t matter. It was a minor improvement and I wouldn’t prioritize over speakers, amps, source etc but there was definitely an improvement in my case.
I think you are on to something with the connectors. I used to run sound for a small regional band. We played lots of outdoor grandstand shows in the summer and the gear would get pretty dirty. We showed up to a regular indoor venue a little early one night, so I grabbed the contact cleaner, pulled all the connections in the amp rack and cleaned everything. I was stunned at how much better the PA sounded. Tighter, punchier, more impact. It was like we had a better set of subs.
Dirty and tarnished connections act like diodes, disturbing the balance between plus and minus signals. Wire a diode in series with a speaker and you’ll hear what I mean. Ay yi yi.
Kimber 8TC was a wire a few people could successfully identify in blind ABX tests between wires from Sound King, power cable etc. It can sound different and usually better. Connectors can help...my interconnects are never soldered when possible.
I went with the WBC Mogami speaker wire with the soldered banana plugs. I did not do an A/B test, but I thought I heard the same as your Kimber experience. Opened things up a bit over my home made cables. It was worth the purchase.
Monster
BJC has cables at reasonable prices. They have many informative, scientific articles about cables.
Their LC-1 low capacitance analog stereo interconnects are very good. They also sell the same cord as a subwoofer cable.
I really never thought about the diff RCA cables.I picked a pair of Kimber Cables and was really shocked how good they sounded in comparison to the typical amazon $20 cables. I went back and forth and could tell a different sound signatures. Colour me impressed
I’ve had good experience with Blue Jeans Cables. They are made here and have good connectors. Am using their coax and subwoofer cable.
I have experimented with speaker wire, cables, interconnects etc. None have had any noticeable dif fence in my system. However one thing I tried recently was to swap out these cheap plate jumpers on the binding posts. I ditched these cheesy plates to completely solid 10 gauge copper wire and used rhodium plated spade connectors and red/white color coded shrink tubing . The difference was really the first time I noticed a difference in separation and how my RTI a7s had so much more body and richness. I tested this by switching them back and forth with plate jumper and homemade cable and it was a no brainer. Randy thank you for the vids and open debates!
@telegram me 👉@Cheapaudioman Thank you for liking my comment.
Here's where I have landed after oh so many decades:
1. Timbre matching. This has really not been an issue with films. It is an issue with multi-channel music. Even then, though, it was not a total deal-killer until I got some Quadio mixes (like the short-lived Quadrophonic stuff in the 70s). These mixes put specific instruments and/or voices in different channels (some DVD-A remixes from 60s & 70s albums do, too). So, now I have Elac Unifi 2.0 family members all around. The complaints department closed.
2. Speaker "designs". I've migrated my preference to thinner designs. I like the soundstage better. My last few speaker designs employ minimum practical distance from the enclosure edge to the driver edges. Practice what I preach. As to towers vs. bookshelf, all things being equal (which is rarely true), I prefer towers with the low-frequency drivers near the floor. If I'm going to get a boundary bounce, for low frequencies, I prefer it to be overwhelmingly dominated by the direct floor bounce. More impact. Unambiguous directivity.
OK, take your shots. I have eye protection.
I was into car audio before I could afford home audio. I had a shop install a Sony car stereo. Then I started reading about car audio and learned about separate amps. I had another shop install a small amp for my front speakers. I was disappointed by the performance. Then I found the local hifi store who sold Kimber Kable. I swapped out the cheap RCA interconnects with a pair of PBJ. That was when I became an audiophile.
I could hear lyrics more clearly. I could hear the soundstage better. I could make out different instruments in the mix more clearly. Been a Kimber fan ever since. That said they are overpriced. I still use 4TC in my home stereo.
That's called placebo effect. Because they are more expensive cables you went to you are convincing yourself in your head that it is going to sound better before you even listen to anything. You would have to go back and forth with the different cables and do a blind a b to confidently make that statement.
@@ryanschipp8513 As a broke dude I was fully prepared to return them if I didn’t hear a difference. My friends heard the difference too. Wasn’t just me.
@@Corndog642 I understand where you are coming from but that is still a placebo effect for them also. Honestly, you would have to go back and forth with the same track over and over with a blind test. Anyone knowing the fact that you're spending more money for a so-called higher-quality cable is going to mentally convince themselves that it's going to sound better but the only way to truly tell is back and forth with a blind a B test
@@ryanschipp8513 It’s really not hard to hear differences and it’s repeatably consistent. Have you tried it?
@@Corndog642 I'm sorry but you are essentially ignoring everything I said. The way human beings hear sound is very forgetful. There is no way you could hear your system hooked up with certain wires and then minutes later hear it with other wires and then tell there is a difference. There is truly a way you could tell if there is a difference and that would only be with a blind A&B test. You did not do this. This isn't picking on you, no human being would be able to give a certain answer unless they did a blind a B test. Our brain and ears just don't work in a fashion where you can remember the sound of something from minutes or hours or days or weeks ago and confidently say that there is a difference. It doesn't make sense answer your question because it's irrelevant since the only way to confidently say there's a sound difference is by quick ab blind testing back and forth on a track you know extremely well
Guys I used to be a musician I used to make my own speaker cables inside and up to the speakers I used 76 ish strand wire and the difference is profound it is more expensive and hard to solder but worth it
I ordered a set of 'worlds best' cables to add an Amp I got to a second system. So I figured, swap the new cables for my audioquest cables on my main rig, simply because I could.. Having swapped several interconnects before and heard nothing, I of course expected nothing.... Ya, so I now use 'Worlds best cables' interconnects because I can hear the difference. Costs less than $40, sounds like a win to me!
Great Video as usual Randy, thanks!
I've had two different types of cables for my speakers. one was cheap £14 a meter bi white made by Gale and the other was £54 a meter Chord Odyssey bi wire speaker cable. The Gale cable sounded warmer and muted and the Chord cable gave my system a brighter more detailed sound. It was so obvious and like night and day. The right design speaker is the one that sounds great to you. I'm also a fan of Tarun and feel he's trustworthy and knows his stuff. love your channel btw Randy and love your sense of humour 😊
When objective measurements don’t correlate directly and unequivocally with a shared subjective perception, you’re going to have controversy. I don’t trust my aging ears enough to overrule a scientific instrument. Cables have to be good enough, but beyond sufficient conductivity to limit voltage drop and convey a current over a given run, and adequate shielding to obviate RF and other EM disturbances, what really can you do to make them “Better”?
Yea but there are things you are not measuring. The measurement nuts care about SNR which has no affect on sound quality on modern components. The headphone show channel did a good write up on this.
@@enjoshi-godrez8775 Yes true, SNR won't matter in practice, unless one is unlucky enough (cursed?) to get a setup of really high sensitivity speakers with a phono or microphone headamp that is noisy (not a defective unit, but rather poorly designed in the first place). Then you would hear "hiss"ing between songs. I have heard that over a friend's system many years ago. It's bothersome. But that would be an exception, not the rule, with a badly chosen combo of gear. In such a case, either ditch the speakers for less sensitive pair, or ditch the noisy headamp, or both. Otherwise, I do agree with you about SNR; it used to be very important, but not so much so any more. It is a rather outdated measurement with today's headamps, even decent ones, never mind worrying about the completely inaudible noise floors in preamps or power amps.
Hi MOzart Mike; From my experiences as a long-time audiophile (also long in the tooth), I agree with you! Cheers! 🍺
Air matrix and locking RCA plugs.
@@JohnDoe-np3zk At audio frequencies, I'd agree with the locking connectors, yes. The physical integrity of connectors and the integrity of shielding are significant contributors. Good physical, and hence the resulting electrical, connections certainly work wonders. Locking ones are a great idea.
I love the sound of my "system"! I've got a Rogue Audio Sphinx V3 partnered with Tannoy Revolution XT-8f tower speakers (connected with 12 gauge Blue Jeans Cables). The sound is great to my ears! Both components have received some outstanding "reviews" on 'the internet'. However, when it comes to measurements, both can fall short of "flat" or have, in some cases, inaudible shortcomings that metrics might measure and what some might term "distortion" (or coloring). Watching too many "audiophile" RUclips videos, I've also explored upgrading cables/interconnects and even power cords. I corresponded directly with Rogue Audio regarding a power cord upgrade - not that the original equipment seems "cheap". We discussed "noise floor" and my ears don't notice any problems with that. I guess the power supply to my home is relatively "clean". Rogue Audio's contact stated, I could upgrade the power cord, but he suggested that money would be better spent on more vinyl or CD's. I'm with him. The interconnects from both my Fluance turntable and Denon CD player appear to be a step above traditional/typical RCA quality. So, I'm not sold on spending more money chasing Unicorns. Even if I tried a meager upgrade to the WBC's interconnects, would I hear a difference?
Thanks for another great video, Randy. I was thinking about that there could maybe be a sixth trigger. I get that subwoofers isn’t such a great divider among audiophiles in the US, but in many European countries the subject of subwoofers in stereo listening can often get a bit heated. I guess that I’m a rather «in the middle of the road» here, as I have owned a fair amount of subwoofers. I admit that subs might be quite tricky to «get right», to get integrated to mainspeakers, but I would never dismiss anyone who feels that subs are essential to a stereo system. On the other hand I think not all room benefits so much from a sub as some pro-sub advocates says. - Fortunately I have several systems. Some with and some without subs, and I like both, for different reasons.
Definitely more a European point of contention, or with the older crew in the states. The 50 and under are probably all into that bass bass bass lol
What I find interesting about these controversies is the human nature behind them. It seems to be pretty important as humans to filter our experiences. Certainly for Audio/Videophiles. Other enthusiasts do very similar filtering. Wine connoisseurs for example. It seems the more money one has to spend the more delicately one wants to split hairs and select the “best”. In the most extreme examples we see the ultra wealthy making these kinds of distinctions for abstract art, confidently deciding that one artists work is worth millions more than another’s. What is unfortunate I feel is the practice of defending one’s choices as the “correct” way to see things, and those who disagree must be less discerning and therefore ignorant or wrong. Maybe that’s the core foundation of this filtering. We can enhance our self worth by developing a finely tuned expertise, reinforced by peers who agree.
Well, yes, but if you can't hear the difference between your basic cables and my ultra-conductive quattuordecuple-braided unicorn hair cables then you're stupid and should never listen to music. Just kidding, I actually really enjoyed your post and have also noticed that the deeper you go into most hobbies the more competitive people tend to get with "being right." At some point, it also seems that many of the arguments boil down to just theorycrafting over tactile experience.
I think getting people interested in hi fidelity is most important. It keeps the industry flourishing from one generation to the next with lots of options and at different budget levels. We are here for a time, but audio continues. Past period music regardless of genre should continue to be enjoyed and influence musicians for generation after generation.
I've heard improvements when upgrading my RCA's but was pleasantly surprised when I replaced my $15 optical with a $40 glass cable. Obviously better everything but especially bass
This is basically the same reason as why you can tell the difference when looking through a clear sheet of plastic vs a clear sheet of glass.
I'm using the weird, skinny optical cable that came with a $15 DAC. I upgraded the DAC but not the cable. What brand of optical cable are people using?
I am 100% on board with your Timbre matching for speakers opinion. I've had numerous setups where my right and left are different than my Center and I hear no distraction of mismatch of sound. regarding soundstage and imaging. I truly believe 90% of that comes from the recording itself. if it's not in the recording a speaker can't magically create a ton more depth or Imaging then another speaker. it's either there or it isn't. my proof. I have three different Hi-Fi rigs in my place. different components, different speakers, different rooms. when I listen to the same recording I essentially get the same results with soundstage and imaging.
Another great video, I always find that some analogue music doesn’t centre image as much as others, I can only think it’s the way it’s recorded in the first place that can make the difference. Either way I’m enjoying the music in what ever format and tend to focus on just listening and not getting bogged down on to much technicality .. cheers