Cable Risers, like so many other aspects of the hobby, are exactly the reason why it's difficult to have audio and speakers as a hobby. Because you can so quickly reach a brick wall in the hobby, where there isn't anything left to do, that people begin to look for more things they can do or desire, so they can continue the hobby. This also causes an Emperors New Clothes effect where the person thinks they hear improvements because they WANT to hear improvements, because otherwise they have to admit the hobby is at another brick wall. Think about it, you get your favorite amp, sources, and processors, combine them with your dream speakers, and set them up in an acoustically friendly room. That's it! Hobby over! Time to put your time somewhere else! But some people don't WANT to stop there, so they have to keep finding ways to continue the hobby. This is where everything from cable risers to Snake Oils to the little disk you just place on your CD player in the 90's that was supposed to "clean up" your digital audio stream. And of course people think they hear a difference. They aren't able to perform a true ABX test between their exact system before the change and after the change, so hearing a slight difference means you didn't just waste your time and money, and you can keep moving forward with the hobby infinitely! Yay!
Just like after you wash your sports car. Always seems faster and better, in reality its not. Its all in our head. Its normal for men to have mental complexes that make us think we're better at things than we are. Many audiophiles think they are trained critical listeners, in reality they have no idea what their doing and won't believe anyone that tells them any different.
@@iowaudioreviews Yeah and it's a major red flag when they say things like "I know my system!, I heard a difference". No, you don't know your system. You will start to forget how it sounds a few seconds after listening and even while you are listening you can only focus on one or two attributes at a time. Blind test or GTFO.
I suspend my cables off the floor with wild horse hair from Mongolia, the difference in sound is incredible. Wrap cable twice then make a suspension support above cables, approximately 2’ 3”. high.
Yes, but you need to burn in those horse hairs for at least a week of continuous listening before they perform at their optimum. Female Mongolian horse hairs will affect the treble more further enhancing fine details while Mongolian male horse hairs are awesome for subwoofer cables.
Be careful with the Female Mongolian horse hairs cables risers. They are only good if they are harvested when the horse is pregnant. Otherwise they might even ruin your sound stage. Now you know!
You really need to use a cable cooker first, followed by the cd demagnetizer and don't forget to check the direction of the electron flow marked on the wire.
You can dramatically improve the sound quality of your cable lifters if you paint the Tinker Toy surfaces with a green Sharpie. You won't believe how it cleans up the female vocals to the crash of cymbals.
Most important is to burn the cable lifters, cables and voice coils in with continuous listening to heavy metal for at least 2 weeks at max volume. This doesn’t mean burning your speakers so lower the volume slightly at the point when the voice coils start to smoke. Rather than paint, dip those cable lifters in oil before the burn in as the oil will enhance the soundstage much more than any color of cheap paint. The best oil is genuine python oil. Some cheaper oils from other snakes will cause a slight resonant ring through capacitance and inductance effects yielding female voices to be elevated and the soundstage to narrow.
My stereo system sounds better on Wednesdays, it's really amazing. I challenge everyone to listen to their systems on Wednesdays compared to the rest off the week. You have to have a REALLY GOOD SYSTEM to hear the difference.
It is well known that on Wednesdays the power grid is cleaner as most people have fallen in a numb mid week routine. They flick lights less, fridges are half empty and running less hard, etc. Try a power conditioner the other days. Will blow your -wallet- mind. Must be > $10K. Anything below is garbage... This said I am puzzled. My own audio system sounds better on Friday evenings, after the 1st beer. Can't put my finger on it... 🤔
Hi there. Induction and self induction always influence a current. And it transforms the signal. What is your problem? Want to deny the laws of physics?
I would have to disagree. My $1000 dollar stereo speakers powered by a $500 amplifier with $30000 cables and $40000 cable risers sounds best on Monday at around 7 pm up till 7:30. The soundstage simply gets wider but on Wednesdays, my system sounds like a mono setup.
@@chrisvanderaa6706 So perhaps we should start opening up our amplifiers and moving around the boards inside and then redesigning the circuits at different distances to hear if it sounds different? How about suspending our amplifiers off of the shelf that they're on would that make a difference in sound?
Yeah, isn't this crazy. Several people that I have had over for a listen thought the difference was so clear that they whipped out their phones and ordered some Tinker Toys before they left my room.
@Cody Smith We do that all the time. Chris (from Vinyl Attack) was here and and we did that. He talked about it in a video. I would love to get Gene to come. I have invited him privately and publicly.
I think shoes on, standing upright adds 100pF to a human body’s total capacitance, another 50pF or so for each arm outreached near a wall. Quality RCAs can have
Why do non-audiophiles or existing, closed-minded, arrogant audiophiles feel it necessary to deprecate audiophiles who employ & have discovered certain tweaks that made a difference...? I've never seen posts from "open-minded" audiophiles criticising those who don't try these things.
This is yet another example of why double blind testing is needed for tweaks like this. Anything can make a huge difference, whether it's real or not. It is also true for crossover components. It all has to do with expectations. If you change something, and tell the listener to find differences, they will. The brain can't isolate sound from other senses, no matter how hard we try. It's a very interesting phenomenon.
so that is why some musicians need auto tune because we can,t hear the difference and practicing together is just a con .go and see live music if you can,t tell a good band from an ordinary one get another hobby .
@@tobiasjames6949 In which ocean though diving in the Indian Ocean is so much better than the pacific especially if you live there . I will guess you meant water divining with a rod or stick can you hear past your own rhetoric ?.
Hi. Found you via Vinyl Attack. Nice to hear your explanation of some of the cable issues (your speaker cable reminds me in appearance of the first Shunyata signal cables, which they sourced from someone else). I've sold serious cables for about 30 years now. Even with that I avoided risers. However I was wrong, even though my system right now, which is very high resolution, doesn't respond much. All the variables you mentioned are in play but in my case I use monoblocks and the cables are only 5' long. Not much was lying on the carpet. I did put my manufacturer's risers under them and the difference was really fairly slight. Although this company makes some extraordinarily expensive products, the risers aren't at $150 for a pack of 8. The designer thinks the massive "high end" ones perform worse. These are plastic cables with a piece of nylon string stretch between their U shape. The cable just rests on it with a tiny contact area. I'm glad I found you. Always love places where I can continue learning and send friends and customers.
Great and easy explanation of what electrostatic charge can cause. Cotton rope have some conductivity, and grounding the rope to amplifiers chassis ground might help even more than cotton rope alone. This is simple sience similar to what you do in a ESD safe are in electronics handling/production but at a higher impedance level.
For unshielded cables there is an electric field around the cable when active. Maybe the floor interferes with that. But a few inches from the cable, the intensity of the field decreases. So where the field is most intense it has a clear space for the electric field to happen (and doesn't affect the signal as much as on the floor). Just my snake oil hypothesis.
@@chriswithall2518 Agreed. That was always my theory as well. I felt that synthetic carpet like I have could be the worst offender. but then I see a video where Jay saw a big impact on his hdw floors. Who knows?
I'm in the UK and we have carpets in all our rooms. I found a distinct improvement in using small light wooden blocks as risers in my system (mid level LP12 and Musical Fidelity separates). Also keeping interconnects away from mains power cables.
I run my speaker cables under the floor of my house so I use cable lowerers. The difference in sound is amazing...the bass is lower and the high notes are more defined and the sound stage is wider and more open. Also I have removed all the tubes and transistors, capacitors and resistors in my equipment as they cause phase and harmonic and IM distortion. You're probably wondering how I get amplification without the above mentioned components. It's classified information that I'm not allowed to reveal, but suffice it to say it involves plasma molecular anaerobic junctioning. You will be hearing more about this in the coming months if you read the science journals that deal in audiology, acoustics and sound wave insanity.
I have chunky speaker cables and do run them under the floor , keeps my wife happy and does sound great but I but that down to the cable not any other factor.
A life long friend of mine has a great system, he is really into his music, his front room has 6 windows and patio doors, his wife changed the curtains and the material type and he said it has changed the sound 😁
Excellent advice. My journey followed a similar path. Well after my system achieved a good 3d sound stage I read about cable risers and skeptically tried them and observed similar results. I have used cardboard V risers. My fastest most cost effective was paper coffee cups. Paper has a dielectric coefficient as good as cotton. I am so cheap I saved my morning coffee cups. Cut a V in the top and they work well. 3" tall. Bingo. Currently I don't need them. The speaker cable is sized to travel from the monobloc to the speaker without touching the floor. Now for an even more controversial topic. I find a slight improvement getting power cables up off the carpet. Impact is a slight sense of compression of the sound like you have with a new capacitor. Not as pronounced. Definitely could not pick it out in a controlled ABX test. But once you hear it, it stays in the system. One of those hundred little things that all add up.
I install PA systems and use a Tone Generator and Probe Kit. Which will allow me to hear the music on the cable just by hovering the wand next to the cable. I can disconnect the speaker and still hear the music on the cable using the probe. Very good tool for finding out where interference is being added to the cables. Tried it at home, cables on nylon mix carpet had a lot of background static. Lifted cables of floor using lego blocks and this removed the static I was hearing on the cables. No noticeable difference at the speaker end. But I believe it would be noticeable on a higher end system.
I don't think microphonics of the speaker cable would make difference when low impedance device such loudspeakers are connected. The signal from amplifier to loudspeaker is rather large, comparing to signal from say from gramophone pick-up. Damn it would be actually easier to notice with low impedance headphones and good headphone amp if there differences. But my guess there wouldn't be difference with loudspeakers, and crossovers actually distort the signal in all possible domains: amplitude, phase, time delay to such degree that the signal summed reproduced loudspeaker other than amplitude is very different from original. I would think of cable risers influence as pure fantasy rather than science.
More than 30 years ago I had a Hewlett Packard 4800 Vector impedance Meter. I bought it second hand in a computer shop. When I was measuring the impedance from speakers that I had built, there was a strange reading on the meter when I moved the cables an inch or so sideways. They were just on a wooden floor. When I lifted the cables several inches from the floor and moved the cable sideways there was no effect on the meter. I thought maybe it was the radiation of a power cable in the floor but could not find any cable there. So, I'm not at all surprised that cable risers have some effect.
Applied science upsets some people because it basically means that everything matters and everything makes a difference to some extent. Doesn't at all surprise me. Products made from drilled oil always have noticeably stronger negative electrically active properties. I'd be curious if an unbleached undyed untreated cotton or linen blanket/mat in between the wire and the floor would make a noticeable difference, since it's probably the artificial carpet in your room causing the issue with the wire. Hardwood floors might be better but even those have a plastic coating.
Where is the science here? Any controlled listening tests? Any measurements? This isn't science...that would require evidence, not just silly, silly claims. Course, this place hasn't got a lot to do with actual evidence does it...
You may be on to something there. Of all of the rope cores we've used in the middle of the speaker cables the unbleached natural cotton has the best sound, or has the least negative effect on the sound.
I raised my cables off my carpeted floor in my fairly expensive system and the difference was very apparent. I had trouble understanding the lyrics but after I lifted the cables off the floor with some folded pieces of cardboard I could hear every word clearly.
our trips to ikea, purchased some cheap glass tea light holders with little slot designs at the top that could (effectively) cradle my cables. And - dammit - it made quite a difference.
i used to do a lot of FCC compliance work with power supplies where we had to meed requirements for the level of interference we could put back on the power line feeding the equipment under test. i used a $25k spectrum analyzer to read the level of interference we were cause and did what ever it took to get us below the limits.I would add common mode chokes, capacitors across the line and to ground but in the end the layout of the parts was more important than which parts I used. There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy [science]
Many thumbs up! LOL Wonderful audiophile world. I have yet to try cable risers. I do have hardwood floor but I think it would make a difference. First, I have to upgrade my speakers with your crossover kits. When I get time, I'll do it.
In my last home I couldn't have the cables on the floor but the was a wooden rail around the room about a foot from the ceiling with hooks screwed into it so I used so sewing thred and hung the cables using it from the hooks and yes the cables gained around 4 foot in length but it made a huge difference even with a low end budget audio system (less than £700 all in turntable, tapedeck, receiver, secondhand speakers)
@@neandrewthal there was less background noise (hum) with the cables hung so wasn't placebo effect. The reason I think was concrete floor with old-school electric underfloor heating (floor was basically a massive kettle element)
Hi Danny. BANG ON about colorants/pigments in cable insulation/sheathing having sonic impact, in fact system sound/signature can be dialed up at will according to the 'impurities' embedded in the insulation materials. Once a particular mix of compounds which causes dead clean, clear, neutral sound is incorporated, a surprisingly wide range of other 'substances' can be also be included in order to 'voice' the system. Signature actually means dynamic 'patterns' in the reproduced acoustic energy transmission, patterns in energy transmissions have neurological/biochemical effects on the mind/body, some patterns are nice, some patterns are not. Proximity/contact of cables with flooring materials adds another set of patterns into the energy transfer rate, some patterns play nice together, some patterns don't.
Cable companies add compounds to the dielectrics to improve transparency, resolution, neutrality, etc.? Voicing is optional? Talk about secret recipes. That would enormously increase the complexity of cable design.
@@BruceCross Yes but unwittingly for the most part and choosing pigments for aesthetics reasons or model identification. Some cable companies are on to it and deliberately 'noise' the cables but their approach is still a crap shoot. The big trick is knowing which combination of elements produces dead clean, dead clear, dead real sound...the signature of this recipe is that there is no signature if that makes sense.....difficult to comprehend but once heard cannot be unheard and thereafter all cables/systems sound coloured/clouded. Once the clear baseline is set then it is a perfectly simple matter to add voicing at will...want your system to give you a s**tty headache no problem, want your system to be fun no problem, want your system to be therapeutic no problem. I know this concept sounds far out but it is all due to 'patterns' in the sound, usually called noise but is in fact information and at the fundamental level. In depth researching of Bybee Quantum Purifier will give a heads up on physical processes that influence system sound. Cheers.
@@ericmc6482 So most companies aren't intentionally customizing their dielectric material? And the other companies are clueless about the process? Hopefully, somebody has a clue. From what little I could gather on Bybee Quantum Purifiers, they remove low-frequency electronic noise below 2 kHz, also known as 1/f or flicker noise. Whatever that means. Quantum mechanics is only understood by a few physicists, meanwhile I struggled with algebra. Generally, I don't buy tech I can't understand. Honestly, it sounds more controversial than cable risers, but then I looked up the company and they do offer a 30-day return policy.
@@BruceCross Hi Bruce, I just lost a long reply. Yes AFAIK no companies are deliberately choosing colorants for their signature/voice properties and yes it seems that most cable companies are essentially clueless. Yes it's all to do with 1/f noise and materials all have their individual dynamic 1/f noise spectrums. Noise drives/excites system noise interactively/recursively so yes a cable change can markedly change the 'character' of a system despite LCR values being 'same'. Signal is energy transfer, Energy Transfer Rate is not constant Einstein's c but subject to dynamic field conditions, surround a conductor with a substance and the ETR will be dynamically moderated/modulated according to the surrounding material which is resolved to signal noise but is actually information (in the form of patterns) about the insulation material. Jack Bybee device is amortizing or 'whitening' the ETR which reduces 1/f noise and consequent effects on system subjective sound. JB's approach is not perfectly white and whist diminishing 1/f noise and consequent dynamic excess noise still leaves identifiable faint signature. My approach is to rigidly 'clock' ETR (no patterns) and in so doing a whole bunch of dependencies 'magically' disappear leaving dead clean clear natural sounding 3D audio repro. That said patterns can then be deliberately introduced and this opens a whole new world lol. I was serious in my comment about headache, in the name of science I have created an insulation formulation that causes nasty headache in four minutes and lingering three days, confirmed by experiment repeat three weeks later.. Physiologically/neurologically beneficial compounds can be incorporated too, stoning or DMTing a pub crowd through the PA is perfectly doable lmao. So in conclusion expect cables to influence/control system dynamic noise behaviours and physiological responses, so far AFAIK no cable manufacturers have any real clue about this and audiophiles are similarly lost in the wilderness still searching for that 'right' system sound but will never attain it without what I have planned. Thiese links may interest you and reading between the lines explains a whole lot of what is happening to human behaviours/health in dense modern cities with associated high level EMRs. Cheers. www.researchgate.net/publication/28764625_Photon_Induced_Non-Local_Effects_of_General_Anesthetics_on_the_Brain ruclips.net/video/21Z4947fl_s/видео.html
@@ericmc6482 Forgive me if I only speak in generalities, since the science is over my head. Yes, I could see how the conductor signal could be modulated by the dielectric, especially with the electric and magnetic fields. You had me searching for acronyms. ETR is Electron Transport Rate or Energy Transfer Ratio? Your explanation of Jack Bybee's approach vs. your own is beyond me, except that it reduces noise. Do you think your approach is marketable and affordable? How surreal that dielectric compounds can have sinister effects on humans, but healing effects, too. Passing magnetic pulses through a chemical substance to influence the brain is mind-boggling science. If I understood the video, electromagnetic energy transfer at specific frequencies play a major role in human biology, even at the level of protein molecules, DNA, and cell membranes. No, I don't understand it, but it's fascinating. If designer peptides can treat cancer/HIV, it would be wonderful. Yes, EMR pollution in crowded cities has even more frightening consequences. Who can deny the overlap of resonances with music? Can listening to good music heal us? Possibly.
Lowes sells a plastic cone shaped tower called a rebar chair. Its 58 cents. It looks good under the cables and it does improve the sound. Improved imaging and focus, is noticeable in my system. Dirt cheap! Looks good and sounds good. All you have to lose is $15 at Lowes. Just try it with a open mind. Yes I am serious.
Hi Danny. I have been using cable risers for years. The best cheap option is 3 wooden chopsticks and some string tied into a tepee. This costs practically nothing and is an easy way of testing this principle, to see if it can work for you. Give it a whirl.
I recently took a motorsports wiring course. For digital signal wires that connect CANBUS components, not only are you not supposed to run parallel wires, the twists per inch is specified! Very similar to your closer to 90 degree explanation. It cancels noise in high frequency data wires.
So how do I manage the 50 cables hanging off the back of my equipment? I can't seperate all those cables in the cabinet. Is there a similar cable management system for all the power, RCA and speaker wire mess behind the cabinet?
They only work if set up with a downhill slope toward the speakers correct? Actually, I think your static electricity analogy is a bit of a stretch. That is unless you're scooting the cables around on a carpet like a dog's itchy butt and develop a charge like the balloon on your shirt. But if knowing they're there influences your psychoacoustic perception, have at it! :- )
Yes. It's just the laws of physics. Remove or minimize as many variables that can transform an electrical signal. And all transformation is degradation. I am a believer. Now first i need money to buy a high end system, so i can also experience that influence. I like your practical approach to solving the problems in signal paths.
Okay, this can make perfect sense on a concrete slab home. There is a grid of rebar in the concrete. The home's electrical system, if it's a relatively new home, within the last 50 years or so, the electrical system is grounded to the rebar in the slab. So, the question then remains. How high off the floor do the cables need to be? Has anybody tested different elevations?
This is the problem with science that's not well understood. It's just arbitrary and maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't, maybe it could make it worse. How would you know, other than trusting your brain? PS. IT (brain) LIES TO US. But hey, give it a try. If you think it makes a difference, it probably makes a difference.
I've always been told that rising the cables is only really needed if it's a concrete floor with rebar in it. Something about the cables being close to the metal rebar causes an induction effect. I actually don't know what's happening but don't doubt it's noticeable in a high end hifi system. Because what isn't? ;)
I have read that even a regular carpet can generate static electricity that can affect the cables. Risers are one way to get those cables up and away from any potential static or induction interference. Just realize, it's a tweak, not a cure-all!
@@dmark2639 Bbbbbutttt it is a cure for floor generated resistance. In the first system I put the speaker cables on risers-er- cardboard boxes... it removed a haze, a dampened thing on the high frequencies that I simply could not sort until that moment. And what are other tweaks? Let's say I use sorbothane for the feet of some gear or speakers, yes it's a tweak, but the tweak cures a problem. Tweaks are not silly flamboyant flourishes, they are cures for real sonic problems in a room. Spend a few years treating room s and you'll understand that tweaks are, when used properly, cures for genuine sonic interference in the sound your hearing from the system through the room. And by all this I do not mean tweaks bought from $$$$$$$ vendors, I mean an understanding of materials and physics and using the best materials to solve problems, it is amazing what one can do with just the few materials that actually apply to audio, the aforementioned Sorbothane, Rockwool, MDF, mass loaded vinyl... cheers.
I have a physics degree, but don't claim to be a physicist or any kind of authority on electrical engineering, but what I did learn from the few introductory papers in electrical theory I took, was that when a current passes through a wire, there is a heck of a lot more going on than just electrons moving in a conductor. The properties of the resulting fields, frequency dependant inductance and reactance... sure you can measure them or make some kind of inference about them theoretically, but the behaviour of current is extremely complex. I always roll my eyes when I hear people insist that what you measure is what you get... I would compare that to dropping a line over the side of a boat to measure the depth and then claiming to know everything about the ocean. Sure, Danny uses measurements to determine some primary parameters of acoustic systems, but he understands what he is measuring, it's limitations, what the measurement is telling him and what it isn't. I changed out my speaker cable for the helical construction type of cable that Danny uses here, because I immediately recognised when I saw it, that the geometrical configuration of the cable would have a significant effect on the fields created around the cable, and therefore the self-induced field effects on the signal. I can't say that lifting the cables off a non-electrically neutral surface will make an improvement, but I can guarantee it will make a difference to the signal. If you alter the field, you alter the signal.
@@edd2771 How is suggesting putting your wire up on junk you have lying around the house, asking for your money? Why are you asking other people for answers? Why don't you get your own answers? I expect that Danny doesn't give you the answers you want because he cannot say whether a given modification will be a subjective improvement to you. he is telling you to try it and find out for yourself. As for double blind tests, If you can't hear a difference, don't do it. Nobody is holding a gun to your head, but you will never know until you try things for yourself. Cheer up Ed, it's just a hobby.
@@edd2771 Ed, what are you doing? Are you here just because you like arguing about nothing with strangers? I am not interested. It's boring and pointless. If you disagree, I really don't care, just say what you believe, maybe I'll read it maybe I won't. No one is obligated to engage with you.
When cd players were first introduced it was claimed that because they all measure the same they all sound the same, which they clearly didn't then someone analysed phase jitter and that explained a lot of the difference. Could there be something thats not being measured that relates to risers?
@@philspencelayh5464 That's exactly the thing, just like the early days of CD before jitter was known to be a thing, we don't know what we don't know. And even if we do know a measurable phenomena exists that affects the the signal, in the case of fields, even if could quantify some property of the fields, how do we determine it's meaning? We are dealing with a highly complex system where a current creates a fields in 3 dimensional space which acts on itself and in turn affects the current creating it and the effect varies with respect to frequency and a multitude of other factors, add to that that every medium in which the field exists has a dielectric coefficient that influences the field, and therefore the current, and it all gets very complex, very quickly. All you can know for sure is that every factor that changes in the signal path has an effect, whether it's audible, good, bad, who knows. Lifting cables of the floor and therefore changing the dielectric properties of the medium might sound better, might sound worse...All you can do is experiment and listen.
I used to be an electrician and a elevator mechanic and I could trouble shoot basic electric circuits it also seemed the more I learned the more confused it seemed so I am not a electrical engineer. but I just watched a video from a guy who is a ee, somewhere along the way I learned electricity travels along the skin of an electrical wire now in this video I watched it said electrons move from electric motive force(with means the lines of force that radiate out from a wire that has electrical current moving thru it) causes electrons to flow outside the wire not on the skin or thru the core... which would mean being on the floor could very well make a diff... but to be honest it is completely over my head. I have a nice entry level system 1500$ speakers and a 3000$ receiver and A1500$ integrated amp playing airplay or CD player as a source and listening to zeppelin and the like. It probably wouldn't make a difference but it does sound pretty good. I went all thru that to say I like the way Danny explained it and if I was quite a bit upstream in a system I might be interested but since I am in the bottom 80 to 90 percent I will just say thanks for the video
"Skin effect" is a real thing in signal transmission, but it isn't a factor at the low frequencies of audio signals. There are other audiophiles with engineering backgrounds who can do a better job of what actually matters in an audio system and why.
Yep, this skin effect non-sense and cable riser bs has been debunked by audio research over the years. There's published scientific papers out there on it. These kind of audio guys refuse to acknowledge them or read them and just trust their ears. Well science has also taught us our ears and brain can't be trusted either. At least not for this sort thing were memorizing fidelity is required. Why blind tests always debunk this nonsense. There's plenty of audio demonstrations out there that easily fool human hearing and the mind. Statistically much of this is all in our heads.
Daanny I only come here for the plain truth. You lay everything on the table. It's easy to understand and everything I've learned here matches my own findings. I'm putting into practice everything I've leaned here over the years. Unfortunately currently I don't have room for indoors hifi. But I built a completely sq build. Competing in IASCA SQ daily truck comp this season. I have custom passive crossovers with mylar film caps and sonic caps bypass caps. Braided my own cables with a 7/16 poly ripe center wrapped with custom braided 16gx6 - 28 strand conductors woven by hand each half wrapped in tpfe tape then wrapped as one. Each conductor is wound in opposing directions. Then soildered and terminated on the ends. My hands are still cramped. But man was it worth it. Image and stage jumped to life. Upper vocal ranger. No words. Took me 3 years to get here and still not done. Lol😂 blackhole of hifi! Love ❤️ it. Danny keep it up.
@@AT-wl9yq if using cable risers produce a hearable difference in the sound, it should be possible to measure these effects. Otherwise there are only „earwitness“ accounts, made by people with flawed and imperfect measuring tools (human hearing). Of course its totally fine for people to use cable lifters if that’s what makes them happy. But if you make scientific claims you have to be prepared to give scientific prove.
@@HenneB I can't say if they make a difference or not because I never tried them. The reason I said what are you going to measure, is we can't measure everything we hear. "Of course its totally fine for people to use cable lifters if that’s what makes them happy. But if you make scientific claims you have to be prepared to give scientific prove." That's something else entirely. The experience I have with people who claim "science", is they talk about it but never do it. For example, I'm sure you've heard of Audio Science Review (I think that's what its called.). He seems like a nice guy, but when I pointed out that he doesn't do anything even remotely resembling science, he seemed to get a little upset. But when I made my case, which is fairly simple, the discussion was over. He has a channel to build, and he's not going to let real science get in the way of that. That's why I'm asking, what are you going to measure. Do you want to win an argument, or do you want to get to the truth. If you want to win an argument, no measurements, test, evidence, etc... will ever do unless I get the results you want me to get. If you want the truth, then you need to use real science. So unless you can come up with something real, we can't have a discussion.
@@cbts001a4 That's a typical response for someone who doesn't know how science works. Lets have another look at my question. "Its a good idea but what would you measure?" Now is that so complicated you can't give me an answer? Its a very simple question.
I have just made speaker cable risers from oak wood and i can definitely hear a difference. More fine low-level detail, freer very high frequencies and more dynamic, faster transients and perceived louder peaks. My hardwood floor has underfloor water heating and I believe I have reduced the capacitance of the cables by raising them 6 inches off the floor.. My system is very good at resolving detail. My older Exposure amplifier is -3dB I believe at 100 kHz so it has a very extended frequency response. I do my best to have very clean AC, as little RF as possible and negligible susceptibility to non-audio signals so the amplifier can spend its energy on audio-band signals. Speaker cables are Kimber Crystal 24, length of each side is 4.5 metres or about 14 feet. Another huge improvement was gained by isolating the KEF Reference Three Two loudspeakers from the floor with compliant anti-vibration feet for washing machines. Here again huge amounts of treble energy liberated after isolation, better detail resolution. All the best, Rob in Switzerland
In commercial installations involving transmission lines, GIL or Gas Filled Lines use Nitrogen and Sulphur Hexafloride (SF6) as a dielectric. Yes, I know the comparison is quite unlikely given the parameters at audio frequencies but I have oftentimes wondered how long before someone develops GIL audio cables but why go to that expense when your grandkids tinker toys, Lincoln Logs, or Legos wind up in our audio system. As for me, I saving my money for a Flux Capacitor to recap my passive crossovers 😉
Wire's capacitance can't be denied in higher voltages. We started using "medium" voltage, (3000 vac), wiring where I used to work and the wire would hold enough charge unplugged that it could kill you if you didn't remember to discharge by shorting it.
On one of our trips to ikea, purchased some cheap glass tea light holders with little slot designs at the top that could (effectively) cradle my cables. And - dammit - it made quite a difference.
Danny - you always bring "UP" the best subjects. Wink - grin... Now, because of this video, the price of Tinker Toys is going to go way up on Amazon. Hahaha All the best to you and yours, Kevin
Too many are approaching this wrong. The 𝙚𝙭𝙩𝙚𝙧𝙣𝙖𝙡 𝙛𝙞𝙚𝙡𝙙𝙨 𝙞𝙨 𝙬𝙝𝙚𝙧𝙚 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙬𝙤𝙧𝙠 𝙞𝙨 𝙙𝙤𝙣𝙚, ... where the energy is transferred. Instead of conventional wisdom focusing on conductive paths... (floor static, or nails, rebar, etc), the physics at play here seem to be the E and B fields' interaction with it's environment. I'd suggest plausible impacts (soundstage dimensionality, openness) may most align with the disturbance and corruption of the external electric field and magnetic field. If that's the case, then that environment's permeability and interaction with the external fields is an element at play. 𝙀𝙣𝙚𝙧𝙜𝙮 𝙞𝙨 𝙘𝙖𝙧𝙧𝙞𝙚𝙙 𝙗𝙮 𝙛𝙞𝙚𝙡𝙙𝙨 𝙣𝙤𝙩 𝙫𝙞𝙖 𝙚𝙡𝙚𝙘𝙩𝙧𝙤𝙣𝙨... a mammothly common misconception. Decades of over simplification of electricity flow contributes to this misunderstanding. All said; It's plausible a capable rig in an well sorted room could delineate such differences. Openness, space, dimensionality, these represent some of the smallest, least significant voltage variations present at the mic capsule. Certainly thought provoking.
The Poynting vector S = E × B, the vector cross product of E, the electric field vector and B, the magnetic field vector. The Poynting vector magnitude is zero if either E or B vector magnitudes are zero, so there is no energy transfer if either E or B vector magnitudes are zero. The electric field vector E and the magnetic field vector B and the Poynting vector S are perpendicular to each other. The magnetic field vector B is curled around the current carrying conductor according to the right hand rule. There is zero energy transfer from a battery or a statically charged dielectric not in a circuit (like carpet) because there is an electric field but zero current so zero magnetic field. Fact check my comment with a physics text book.
Non-linear distortion of the audio signal waveform is harmonic or intermodulation distortion, changes in timbre, not "soundstage dimensionality, openness". Stereophonic "dimensionality" requires level or time difference between left and right stereo channels, which are part of the recording, not part of the playback system if left and right channels are identical and independent. Disconnect one left or right amplifier input and listen for any music from the speaker on the disconnected side.
in the UK back in the past some audiophiles experimented using fine fishing lines attached to the ceiling lifting the cables & claimed it made a difference i kid you not.
It's a win-win.... Buy & try the Tinker Toys, and if you don't like it, give them to some kids. Somebody wins! And, it's not some crappy plastic toy that will go into landfill... it's a biodegradable solution!
Would lifting traces off the PCB on a complimentary output stage of an amplifier help as well ? I mean between the transistors' emitters and emitter resistors and then all the way to output coils/resistors ? What about the positive and negative DC supply rails ? All those capacitively (electrolytics!) coupled stages of modern amplifiers must surely be terribly detrimental to the sound and miles of these tracks are in the same PCB plane ! What are the Engineers thinking ???
PCB layout do's and don'ts are well understood. Capacitive coupling, signal coupling, ground planes, trace width, component placement are all taken into account as part of a design. Hopefully, an attempt at humor. Otherwise, exaggeration sprinkled with a few "technical" terms is jibberish.
Obviously, the DC supply rails need to be both at their spec DC voltages & low impedance ground level simultaneously,....thus the need for high Uf electrolytic bypass.....The PCB signal traces Should be elevated on risers above the boards ground plane throughout all signal pre-amp, power amp & extended elevated above floor surface to speakers for best possible sonics...
Hey Danny... It is SO NICE to see this subject addressed so rationally and reasonably...and with the proper qualifications and understanding. To deny that it is real, is, well, just foolish. And to recognize that it requires a certain level of performance to be notable - the area of performance I address routinely in my writing and on my channel - is just as significant. I have been espousing this philosophy since the mid-1990s. In fact, the last time I talked about it, in my "the audio analyst Episode 22: Better sound for free," it inspired a German audio manufacturer to do a spate of measurements and to work with an aircraft turbine parts manufacturer (Eurofighter!) to laser create a boutique paramagnetic cable raiser made of a newly created proprietary Magnesium and Aluminum alloy. I have a set and they are remarkable. Yet as you point out here, and as I have said in ALL my comments on the matter, you can use free or uber cheap minimally invasive materials, cardboard tubes (empty toilet paper or paper towel tubes), paper cups, bamboo skewers and rubber bands, etc., to see for yourself how effective it can be in your own system. In hyper-audio systems like mine, it is so readily apparent that it would be criminal NOT to get my cables up off the floor. THANK YOU for all your excellent work here on the channel, my friend. Keep ‘em flyin’, Danny!
I wonder if any of this would be measurable with a VNA? I know moving an antenna near any object can cause dramatic changes in the antennas characteristics but this is also in the UHF realm.
Cool !. You can also place bits of paper, cardboard, cloth (organic hemp, organic cotton, silk, etc, watch out about colourants) in the cradles and you might find slight change/voicing. My suggestion to Danny of white Titanium Dioxide paint is because the Tio2 pigment gives a nice damping quality/voicing, muting the highs/tops a little but depending on system this can be advantageous. White sheathed power cables and signal cables have same property and I find black cables have a 'hardness' signature in comparison.......maybe Apple know something they are not saying lol. Please let us know what you find with your experiment. Cheers..
I'm always curious about using high voltage insulated cable that we discard at the power company for speaker cable it's #2 stranded welding cable type cooper with 15000v insulation ( stupid question but it's free ) ???
Any idea what the mechanism for the perceived improvement is? I can't think of anything myself, all of the floors in my house (and a tremendous amount of others too) are wooden so I can't see how any electromagnetic effect can be involved.
My HEMP insulated wires sound even better!! But only if I hang them from organic silk threads. Actually, 11 gauge RG-8 Coax is a fantastic sounding speaker wire and I would sincerely love to see a comparison. I would buy the RG-8 and mail it to you to compare.
Is it electrical or vibrational issues affecting the cable, and what’s under the floor? If height doesn’t matter then perhaps using slit pipe insulation,cut into short pieces would do the job too
Cable risers work for me. I paid $35 for enough 3D printed plastic risers to suspend my cables off the floor. The increase in clarity and focus is obvious. Thanks for sharing, Danny.
Hmmm...not saying it is not an improvement, but if it were me, I would not want the risers made out of a conductive material like plastic or metal. Maybe try wood or ceramic, cork, or even cardboard in your system to test the theory...
Recently i made some cable risers for 2 systems i have.. one system is on a wooden floor and the other sitting on a concrete floor. Both made differences in clarity/ separation and definition. As a result i also found the volume didn't need to be turned up as much to enjoy the definition of instruments and with one of the systems i really noticed a difference in soundstage, there is a depth to the the positioning on the instruments.
@Cody Smith Hey, you have yet to answer my question regarding "controlling one's Dreams". So do you believe that this is possible (just as I described above) or do you also contend that what I am suggesting concerning Dreams is simply non-sense / impossible?
I've used cable risers for a few years now. I'm not 100% sure I hear a difference but, I just made some cheap ones cutting up a 2x4. Cost me $3 and had the hardware store make the cuts. I have no problem using them because they cost next to nothing.
I think it is worth saying the obvious BTW. The sounds that make that final big difference in realism in sound stage are in the micro details. There are a lot of things that can muffle these tiny micro or pico volt signals. This is where coupling capacitors, connectors, teflon dielectric, and cable architecture all come into play. So your comment that most people will never hear this is spot on. Most systems while very nice at their level just do not play these sounds that spook us and excite us. When it all comes together it is pretty amazing. I can spontaneously sense the human emotion of the artist singing. It is captured by a microphone and ends up years later in my sound room on demand. It is like that observation when a mother spontaneously lactates upon hearing her baby cry while not responding to any other child in the room. It is in our DNA, and we respond when it is done right.
At dealers, shows, that I have seen the use of risers, the explanation was always the same, static electricity in the carpet was affecting the sonics and that it wouldn't have much effect on wooden floors. Never heard of rebar in concrete issue or see how cryogenically treating the risers would improve things. But hell if it works, c'est la vie.
I lifted the cable to my fridge, milk lasts now 3 month longer...ok occasionally the fridge is now humming vivaldi in the middle of the night, but we got used to that...just hoping the fridge doesn't discover various metal genres
Tried it back and forward a few days with my speaker cables, sounded better without the risers and just lying on the carpet. There was definitely a difference, with the risers voices became thinner and almost fatiguing. I now use them to route the power cables over the signal cables but stay away from the speaker cables 👍 Still find it strange to notice a difference 😳
Are you serious! I've had Cardas,, Audio quest,and still have Some Kimber,and. Super High end MIT cable's.but, found some incredible results with just 12 ga.romex! The trick is,slit the insulation and remove the Black and Red solid core wires.then,fix the end of those wires under a weight,then on the other end , stick them in a drill,and twist them to eliminate all RF frequency.if you do it right,it will astound you!!!
I started using cable risers after following the uTube channel, A stereophile in Seattle. I can vouch that keeping the power cord off the floor makes a huge difference. As for speaker cable I’m not sure as I’m still looking for the right cable. I’ve sued from I could have bought a small car with the money to lamp cord. Maybe I’ll give you a call and try yours. Good video.
The next step is to suspend the cables in a vacuum! Remove all of those electrical interactions with the atmosphere, which we know is there, because lightning is a thing.
Plastic "pizza savers" (those little white plastic tables in pizza boxes) should work fine, especially the ones that are open like a tripod and don't have the "table top" part which could introduce more dielectric absorption.
7:36 - This was a MUCH needed explanation, as well as nicely put. I always just love how folks can completely dismiss something as being not true for the fact that they themselves cannot hear it, taste it, smell it, see it, etc etc. Of course often it is merely a case of how resolving the Audio system is in the first place..., and also that (which Danny clearly stated) some tweaks simply may not work for a particular system (in this case cable / floor), but again that doesn't therefore mean that "it does not work / does nothing". Then again if you hear no difference then by all means don't waste your money -OR- even IF you hear a difference and the difference is simply way to small to justify the cash outlay, well then again don't waste your money. However do determine all of this for yourself... and never simply take anyone's word on anything in Life (IMO 😀).
@Cody Smith Do you believe that it is possible for some people to actually gain control of their dreams (wake within their dreams without actually waking up) and therefore be able to live out fantasies within their dreams (as well as fully remembering what took place while they were dreaming upon waking up)... very much like in the movie Inception.
@Cody Smith Also you're missing my entire point (Well, one of my two points) if you're asking me if I BELIEVE vs. if you're asking me if I happen to KNOW.... unless of course you are truly only interested in whether or not I BELIEVE vs if I happen to KNOW if something is in fact true or not.
@Cody Smith I for one don't go through life Believing or Disbelieving something (neither does one very much good), and instead I choose to prove to myself whether something is in fact true or not... and for those things for which I cannot prove, I simply choose not to either Believe or to Disbelieve... I do however often Hypnosize.
@@neandrewthal No, not at all however you (I) also shouldn't disbelieve and/or judge the person (in such a negative manner). Just because someone doesn't Believe something (know it to be True), they need not Disbelieve it either. May I please ask what do you think about my other comment concerning "controlling one's Dreams". Do you believe that is possible, or simply too far fetched and therefore only something out of the movies (the movie Inception as an example).
I have a pair of speakers (ADS) that's over 25 yrs old.. they were working fine until I changed the impedance on the amplifier from 4ohms to 8 and I switched them around putting the speaker that was normally on the left and the other on the right.. I got major rattle on the low frequencies then I switched them back, right to left and the rattle went away? .. is this possible?.. I left the amplifier impedance switch at 8ohms
Sometimes keeping, or even getting to the point, where one has an open mind, takes work. This is where the ball gets dropped and many players walk off the field. There are some people that come into the game with their minds made up as to where their limits and saturation points of information are. These are the people that are generally the hardest to convince. However, once in a while the light goes on and the ball gets picked up and the player scores and everyone wins- well almost everyone!
I use cork sanding blocks on a hardwood floor with Nordost Red Dawn on a modest setup (Rega CD and a 10 watt PSE). And it gives a better detailed bass.
Mr. Research, In your experience, are the sonic results of the cable lifting phenomenon only applicable to speaker cables? Or, should all the cables in the system be lifted? Thank you.
I watched your video on getting the speaker cables off of the floor. I didn't want that to be a thing. Two months later my girlfriend cleaned up the living room and took all the cables off the floor and stuck them under the tv to get them out of the way. When I woke up I didn't know she had done anything but she was playing music and I could tell right away something had changed. It was so obvious that it was better, I could hear things in the music that I've never heard and she plays these songs a lot. Seeing 2 garbage bags by the front door told me she had cleaned up the spot where she sits on the floor in front of the tv. I knew without looking that the wires weren't on the floor anymore. Does it make a difference, way more than you think it will, get them off the floor, the difference just might shock you. It's noticeable immediately.
I started off wondering if this video was posted 13 days late ... still for the effort of cutting up some cardboard to make risers its worth a go wonder if my radiogram will sound better for it though.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
If you aren’t single and start using cable risers, you will be soon.
morons should hang these cables with strings to the ceiling for better sound quality
😂😂😂👍
Whether they work or not, nobody disagrees they are ugly.
The wife's been asking for a riser for weeks..
Imagine how the family dog would interact with them!
Cable Risers, like so many other aspects of the hobby, are exactly the reason why it's difficult to have audio and speakers as a hobby. Because you can so quickly reach a brick wall in the hobby, where there isn't anything left to do, that people begin to look for more things they can do or desire, so they can continue the hobby. This also causes an Emperors New Clothes effect where the person thinks they hear improvements because they WANT to hear improvements, because otherwise they have to admit the hobby is at another brick wall. Think about it, you get your favorite amp, sources, and processors, combine them with your dream speakers, and set them up in an acoustically friendly room. That's it! Hobby over! Time to put your time somewhere else! But some people don't WANT to stop there, so they have to keep finding ways to continue the hobby. This is where everything from cable risers to Snake Oils to the little disk you just place on your CD player in the 90's that was supposed to "clean up" your digital audio stream. And of course people think they hear a difference. They aren't able to perform a true ABX test between their exact system before the change and after the change, so hearing a slight difference means you didn't just waste your time and money, and you can keep moving forward with the hobby infinitely! Yay!
Great post. It's the honest, and hard truth.
Sounds like you are not a crazy person. What are you doing here lol?
He's not selling snake oil, unless you are suggesting a conspiracy theory where Danny own's Tinker Toys... Clearly that's ridiculous!
Just like after you wash your sports car. Always seems faster and better, in reality its not. Its all in our head. Its normal for men to have mental complexes that make us think we're better at things than we are. Many audiophiles think they are trained critical listeners, in reality they have no idea what their doing and won't believe anyone that tells them any different.
@@iowaudioreviews Yeah and it's a major red flag when they say things like "I know my system!, I heard a difference". No, you don't know your system. You will start to forget how it sounds a few seconds after listening and even while you are listening you can only focus on one or two attributes at a time. Blind test or GTFO.
I suspend my cables off the floor with wild horse hair from Mongolia, the difference in sound is incredible.
Wrap cable twice then make a suspension support above cables, approximately 2’ 3”. high.
Yes, but you need to burn in those horse hairs for at least a week of continuous listening before they perform at their optimum. Female Mongolian horse hairs will affect the treble more further enhancing fine details while Mongolian male horse hairs are awesome for subwoofer cables.
I will follow your instructions, hopefully this will solve some problems I’m having…thanks
@@zenos.5315 If it fails, you should try some Egyptian camel hairs.
Be careful with the Female Mongolian horse hairs cables risers. They are only good if they are harvested when the horse is pregnant. Otherwise they might even ruin your sound stage. Now you know!
@@PierreVilleneuve88 Did Google just ban your comment?
Cable risers look like train tracks and that's why I want them. Choo choo
A man of culture 😂
Danny. You might just be the best audio troll youtube channel in history.
You really need to use a cable cooker first, followed by the cd demagnetizer and don't forget to check the direction of the electron flow marked on the wire.
Just make sure you aren't chuckling the baby out with the bath water
Solid advice.. appreciate it.
You can dramatically improve the sound quality of your cable lifters if you paint the Tinker Toy surfaces with a green Sharpie. You won't believe how it cleans up the female vocals to the crash of cymbals.
Man, must be some good female stuff in the Sharpie.
using a black sharpie, helps lower the noise floor.
Blue had a negligible effect and brown was downright horrible.
ok, but which one opens the soundstage? These guys are always listening to closed one :D
Most important is to burn the cable lifters, cables and voice coils in with continuous listening to heavy metal for at least 2 weeks at max volume. This doesn’t mean burning your speakers so lower the volume slightly at the point when the voice coils start to smoke. Rather than paint, dip those cable lifters in oil before the burn in as the oil will enhance the soundstage much more than any color of cheap paint. The best oil is genuine python oil. Some cheaper oils from other snakes will cause a slight resonant ring through capacitance and inductance effects yielding female voices to be elevated and the soundstage to narrow.
My stereo system sounds better on Wednesdays, it's really amazing. I challenge everyone to listen to their systems on Wednesdays compared to the rest off the week. You have to have a REALLY GOOD SYSTEM to hear the difference.
It is well known that on Wednesdays the power grid is cleaner as most people have fallen in a numb mid week routine.
They flick lights less, fridges are half empty and running less hard, etc.
Try a power conditioner the other days. Will blow your -wallet- mind. Must be > $10K. Anything below is garbage...
This said I am puzzled. My own audio system sounds better on Friday evenings, after the 1st beer. Can't put my finger on it... 🤔
Hi there. Induction and self induction always influence a current. And it transforms the signal. What is your problem? Want to deny the laws of physics?
I would have to disagree. My $1000 dollar stereo speakers powered by a $500 amplifier with $30000 cables and $40000 cable risers sounds best on Monday at around 7 pm up till 7:30. The soundstage simply gets wider but on Wednesdays, my system sounds like a mono setup.
@@chrisvanderaa6706 So perhaps we should start opening up our amplifiers and moving around the boards inside and then redesigning the circuits at different distances to hear if it sounds different? How about suspending our amplifiers off of the shelf that they're on would that make a difference in sound?
@@jeffmpvd7689 Haven,t you got a Hover platform yet ? so 2,000s catch ut to modern times!.
This is new levels of audiophile insanity. You couldn't make this up and yet here we are.
You are in the first stage of the Five Stages of Grief.
Yeah, isn't this crazy. Several people that I have had over for a listen thought the difference was so clear that they whipped out their phones and ordered some Tinker Toys before they left my room.
@Cody Smith We do that all the time. Chris (from Vinyl Attack) was here and and we did that. He talked about it in a video. I would love to get Gene to come. I have invited him privately and publicly.
I think shoes on, standing upright adds 100pF to a human body’s total capacitance, another 50pF or so for each arm outreached near a wall. Quality RCAs can have
Cable risers? Why not. It’s a nice addition to a sophisticated megabuck junkyard of a living room. 👌
rebar chair is riser for metal rod in concrete floor to keep rod up
Why do non-audiophiles or existing, closed-minded, arrogant audiophiles feel it necessary to deprecate audiophiles who employ & have discovered certain tweaks that made a difference...? I've never seen posts from "open-minded" audiophiles criticising those who don't try these things.
This is yet another example of why double blind testing is needed for tweaks like this. Anything can make a huge difference, whether it's real or not. It is also true for crossover components. It all has to do with expectations. If you change something, and tell the listener to find differences, they will. The brain can't isolate sound from other senses, no matter how hard we try. It's a very interesting phenomenon.
That's why we've done this quite a bit where the listener has no idea if anything is being changed and any expectation is gone.
can you tell the difference between a $2000 Turntable and a $6,000. Turntable I can so easily .
so that is why some musicians need auto tune because we can,t hear the difference and practicing together is just a con .go and see live music if you can,t tell a good band from an ordinary one get another hobby .
big difference there I did a $600 versus a $1200 easy to hear the better seperation two guitars playing together could be delineated .
@@tobiasjames6949 In which ocean though diving in the Indian Ocean is so much better than the pacific especially if you live there . I will guess you meant water divining with a rod or stick can you hear past your own rhetoric ?.
How did they change the measurements?
Hi. Found you via Vinyl Attack. Nice to hear your explanation of some of the cable issues (your speaker cable reminds me in appearance of the first Shunyata signal cables, which they sourced from someone else). I've sold serious cables for about 30 years now. Even with that I avoided risers. However I was wrong, even though my system right now, which is very high resolution, doesn't respond much. All the variables you mentioned are in play but in my case I use monoblocks and the cables are only 5' long. Not much was lying on the carpet. I did put my manufacturer's risers under them and the difference was really fairly slight. Although this company makes some extraordinarily expensive products, the risers aren't at $150 for a pack of 8. The designer thinks the massive "high end" ones perform worse. These are plastic cables with a piece of nylon string stretch between their U shape. The cable just rests on it with a tiny contact area. I'm glad I found you. Always love places where I can continue learning and send friends and customers.
Great and easy explanation of what electrostatic charge can cause.
Cotton rope have some conductivity, and grounding the rope to amplifiers chassis ground might help even more than cotton rope alone.
This is simple sience similar to what you do in a ESD safe are in electronics handling/production but at a higher impedance level.
For unshielded cables there is an electric field around the cable when active. Maybe the floor interferes with that. But a few inches from the cable, the intensity of the field decreases. So where the field is most intense it has a clear space for the electric field to happen (and doesn't affect the signal as much as on the floor). Just my snake oil hypothesis.
emphasis on unshielded, which none of these thicc ass cables are
The impact is an exponential decrease as distance increases. IE even a couple inches makes a difference.
All depends what the floor is made of. and its effect on L & C.
@@chriswithall2518 Agreed. That was always my theory as well. I felt that synthetic carpet like I have could be the worst offender. but then I see a video where Jay saw a big impact on his hdw floors. Who knows?
@chriswithall2518 late to the party, but it's not about lcr, it's about even propagation of the electric and magnetic fields.
Hello Danny. Rebar chairs at Home Depot. 20 for $6.00. Easy alternative:)
I'm in the UK and we have carpets in all our rooms. I found a distinct improvement in using small light wooden blocks as risers in my system (mid level LP12 and Musical Fidelity separates). Also keeping interconnects away from mains power cables.
I use monster cable and tried it both ways. I didn't notice any difference.
I run my speaker cables under the floor of my house so I use cable lowerers. The difference in sound is amazing...the bass is lower and the high notes are more defined and the sound stage is wider and more open. Also I have removed all the tubes and transistors, capacitors and resistors in my equipment as they cause phase and harmonic and IM distortion. You're probably wondering how I get amplification without the above mentioned components. It's classified information that I'm not allowed to reveal, but suffice it to say it involves plasma molecular anaerobic junctioning. You will be hearing more about this in the coming months if you read the science journals that deal in audiology, acoustics and sound wave insanity.
I have chunky speaker cables and do run them under the floor , keeps my wife happy and does sound great but I but that down to the cable not any other factor.
Cable lowerers... 🤣🤣🤣
When we 'hear more about this' will it be obvious to us all or is it more subtle than that?
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
😂😂😂😂
A life long friend of mine has a great system, he is really into his music, his front room has 6 windows and patio doors, his wife changed the curtains and the material type and he said it has changed the sound 😁
the mentally ill dont know they are mentally ill
Quite likely.
@@Paul09 maybe it sounds more "veiled" 😁
I loved tinker toys as a kid. Now I have an excuse to go out and buy some !!
Excellent advice. My journey followed a similar path. Well after my system achieved a good 3d sound stage I read about cable risers and skeptically tried them and observed similar results.
I have used cardboard V risers. My fastest most cost effective was paper coffee cups. Paper has a dielectric coefficient as good as cotton. I am so cheap I saved my morning coffee cups. Cut a V in the top and they work well. 3" tall. Bingo. Currently I don't need them. The speaker cable is sized to travel from the monobloc to the speaker without touching the floor.
Now for an even more controversial topic. I find a slight improvement getting power cables up off the carpet. Impact is a slight sense of compression of the sound like you have with a new capacitor. Not as pronounced. Definitely could not pick it out in a controlled ABX test. But once you hear it, it stays in the system. One of those hundred little things that all add up.
I'm like you. I look for low cost tweaks that can help. Find a half dozen of them and things become noticeable. I can't afford $2,000 amps, ect.
My neighbor is gonna wonder where his mailbox’s 4x4 post went😳🤣👍😎.
tl:dr all the other cable risers suck, but the gr research cable risers improved soundstage depth and clarity
I install PA systems and use a Tone Generator and Probe Kit. Which will allow me to hear the music on the cable just by hovering the wand next to the cable. I can disconnect the speaker and still hear the music on the cable using the probe. Very good tool for finding out where interference is being added to the cables.
Tried it at home, cables on nylon mix carpet had a lot of background static. Lifted cables of floor using lego blocks and this removed the static I was hearing on the cables. No noticeable difference at the speaker end. But I believe it would be noticeable on a higher end system.
Great observation. Can you please give details of the cable tracer setup you used ?. Thanks.
@@ericmc6482 Greenlee 601K-G Basic Tone and Probe Kit, there are cheaper versions.
@@mrplainlazy Thanks.
I don't think microphonics of the speaker cable would make difference when low impedance device such loudspeakers are connected. The signal from amplifier to loudspeaker is rather large, comparing to signal from say from gramophone pick-up. Damn it would be actually easier to notice with low impedance headphones and good headphone amp if there differences. But my guess there wouldn't be difference with loudspeakers, and crossovers actually distort the signal in all possible domains: amplitude, phase, time delay to such degree that the signal summed reproduced loudspeaker other than amplitude is very different from original. I would think of cable risers influence as pure fantasy rather than science.
@@pliedtka "My guess....", Clueless.
More than 30 years ago I had a Hewlett Packard 4800 Vector impedance Meter. I bought it second hand in a computer shop. When I was measuring the impedance from speakers that I had built, there was a strange reading on the meter when I moved the cables an inch or so sideways. They were just on a wooden floor. When I lifted the cables several inches from the floor and moved the cable sideways there was no effect on the meter. I thought maybe it was the radiation of a power cable in the floor but could not find any cable there. So, I'm not at all surprised that cable risers have some effect.
No other cables under the floor, but what about next to them?
@@TheMatsushitaMan I think they were 5 feet next to the speaker cables.
At what test frequency did you see that behaviour ?
@@iamsometimes6712 I do not remember. It's a long time ago. I don't have the HP meter anymore so I can't test it again.
I have done my part experimenting this. No difference at least to my ears. Enough is enough.
Oh boy, here we go…
Oh boy, where do we go from here?
Tinkertoys! What a great idea!!
Applied science upsets some people because it basically means that everything matters and everything makes a difference to some extent. Doesn't at all surprise me. Products made from drilled oil always have noticeably stronger negative electrically active properties. I'd be curious if an unbleached undyed untreated cotton or linen blanket/mat in between the wire and the floor would make a noticeable difference, since it's probably the artificial carpet in your room causing the issue with the wire. Hardwood floors might be better but even those have a plastic coating.
Where is the science here? Any controlled listening tests? Any measurements? This isn't science...that would require evidence, not just silly, silly claims. Course, this place hasn't got a lot to do with actual evidence does it...
You may be on to something there. Of all of the rope cores we've used in the middle of the speaker cables the unbleached natural cotton has the best sound, or has the least negative effect on the sound.
@@bwoody1090 hello bigcorpshill
I raised my cables off my carpeted floor in my fairly expensive system and the difference was very apparent. I had trouble understanding the lyrics but after I lifted the cables off the floor with some folded pieces of cardboard I could hear every word clearly.
I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic, which is hilarious in its own right
@@HiJon89 same 🤣
@@HiJon89 I’m serious but I’m glad you got a chuckle.
@@HiJon89
I think he's being serious.
I use XL sized open air raised egg crates.
Much better than folded carboard pieces in my experience.
Really makes more natural sound quacks !
Those little sawhorses for the cables are cool
our trips to ikea, purchased some cheap glass tea light holders with little slot designs at the top that could (effectively) cradle my cables. And - dammit - it made quite a difference.
My dog walks on my 10 gauge Belden 5000 series left speaker cable to get to his nap location.
i used to do a lot of FCC compliance work with power supplies where we had to meed requirements for the level of interference we could put back on the power line feeding the equipment under test. i used a $25k spectrum analyzer to read the level of interference we were cause and did what ever it took to get us below the limits.I would add common mode chokes, capacitors across the line and to ground but in the end the layout of the parts was more important than which parts I used.
There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy [science]
Many thumbs up! LOL Wonderful audiophile world. I have yet to try cable risers. I do have hardwood floor but I think it would make a difference. First, I have to upgrade my speakers with your crossover kits. When I get time, I'll do it.
In my last home I couldn't have the cables on the floor but the was a wooden rail around the room about a foot from the ceiling with hooks screwed into it so I used so sewing thred and hung the cables using it from the hooks and yes the cables gained around 4 foot in length but it made a huge difference even with a low end budget audio system (less than £700 all in turntable, tapedeck, receiver, secondhand speakers)
Sorry, placebo. Try a blind test.
@@neandrewthal there was less background noise (hum) with the cables hung so wasn't placebo effect. The reason I think was concrete floor with old-school electric underfloor heating (floor was basically a massive kettle element)
Pro Tip - Concrete rebar plastic “chairs” are real cheap and easily available from hardware/trade stores, work a treat.
Great idea!
@@dannyrichie9743 Thanks. Usually they are grey plastic, a spray with white paint (TiO2 pigment) would improve WAF lol.
Hi Danny. BANG ON about colorants/pigments in cable insulation/sheathing having sonic impact, in fact system sound/signature can be dialed up at will according to the 'impurities' embedded in the insulation materials. Once a particular mix of compounds which causes dead clean, clear, neutral sound is incorporated, a surprisingly wide range of other 'substances' can be also be included in order to 'voice' the system. Signature actually means dynamic 'patterns' in the reproduced acoustic energy transmission, patterns in energy transmissions have neurological/biochemical effects on the mind/body, some patterns are nice, some patterns are not. Proximity/contact of cables with flooring materials adds another set of patterns into the energy transfer rate, some patterns play nice together, some patterns don't.
Cable companies add compounds to the dielectrics to improve transparency, resolution, neutrality, etc.? Voicing is optional? Talk about secret recipes. That would enormously increase the complexity of cable design.
@@BruceCross Yes but unwittingly for the most part and choosing pigments for aesthetics reasons or model identification. Some cable companies are on to it and deliberately 'noise' the cables but their approach is still a crap shoot. The big trick is knowing which combination of elements produces dead clean, dead clear, dead real sound...the signature of this recipe is that there is no signature if that makes sense.....difficult to comprehend but once heard cannot be unheard and thereafter all cables/systems sound coloured/clouded. Once the clear baseline is set then it is a perfectly simple matter to add voicing at will...want your system to give you a s**tty headache no problem, want your system to be fun no problem, want your system to be therapeutic no problem. I know this concept sounds far out but it is all due to 'patterns' in the sound, usually called noise but is in fact information and at the fundamental level. In depth researching of Bybee Quantum Purifier will give a heads up on physical processes that influence system sound. Cheers.
@@ericmc6482 So most companies aren't intentionally customizing their dielectric material? And the other companies are clueless about the process? Hopefully, somebody has a clue. From what little I could gather on Bybee Quantum Purifiers, they remove low-frequency electronic noise below 2 kHz, also known as 1/f or flicker noise. Whatever that means. Quantum mechanics is only understood by a few physicists, meanwhile I struggled with algebra. Generally, I don't buy tech I can't understand. Honestly, it sounds more controversial than cable risers, but then I looked up the company and they do offer a 30-day return policy.
@@BruceCross Hi Bruce, I just lost a long reply.
Yes AFAIK no companies are deliberately choosing colorants for their signature/voice properties and yes it seems that most cable companies are essentially clueless.
Yes it's all to do with 1/f noise and materials all have their individual dynamic 1/f noise spectrums.
Noise drives/excites system noise interactively/recursively so yes a cable change can markedly change the 'character' of a system despite LCR values being 'same'.
Signal is energy transfer, Energy Transfer Rate is not constant Einstein's c but subject to dynamic field conditions, surround a conductor with a substance and the ETR will be dynamically moderated/modulated according to the surrounding material which is resolved to signal noise but is actually information (in the form of patterns) about the insulation material.
Jack Bybee device is amortizing or 'whitening' the ETR which reduces 1/f noise and consequent effects on system subjective sound.
JB's approach is not perfectly white and whist diminishing 1/f noise and consequent dynamic excess noise still leaves identifiable faint signature.
My approach is to rigidly 'clock' ETR (no patterns) and in so doing a whole bunch of dependencies 'magically' disappear leaving dead clean clear natural sounding 3D audio repro.
That said patterns can then be deliberately introduced and this opens a whole new world lol.
I was serious in my comment about headache, in the name of science I have created an insulation formulation that causes nasty headache in four minutes and lingering three days, confirmed by experiment repeat three weeks later..
Physiologically/neurologically beneficial compounds can be incorporated too, stoning or DMTing a pub crowd through the PA is perfectly doable lmao.
So in conclusion expect cables to influence/control system dynamic noise behaviours and physiological responses, so far AFAIK no cable manufacturers have any real clue about this and audiophiles are similarly lost in the wilderness still searching for that 'right' system sound but will never attain it without what I have planned.
Thiese links may interest you and reading between the lines explains a whole lot of what is happening to human behaviours/health in dense modern cities with associated high level EMRs. Cheers.
www.researchgate.net/publication/28764625_Photon_Induced_Non-Local_Effects_of_General_Anesthetics_on_the_Brain
ruclips.net/video/21Z4947fl_s/видео.html
@@ericmc6482 Forgive me if I only speak in generalities, since the science is over my head. Yes, I could see how the conductor signal could be modulated by the dielectric, especially with the electric and magnetic fields. You had me searching for acronyms. ETR is Electron Transport Rate or Energy Transfer Ratio? Your explanation of Jack Bybee's approach vs. your own is beyond me, except that it reduces noise. Do you think your approach is marketable and affordable?
How surreal that dielectric compounds can have sinister effects on humans, but healing effects, too. Passing magnetic pulses through a chemical substance to influence the brain is mind-boggling science. If I understood the video, electromagnetic energy transfer at specific frequencies play a major role in human biology, even at the level of protein molecules, DNA, and cell membranes. No, I don't understand it, but it's fascinating. If designer peptides can treat cancer/HIV, it would be wonderful. Yes, EMR pollution in crowded cities has even more frightening consequences. Who can deny the overlap of resonances with music? Can listening to good music heal us? Possibly.
If Tinker Toys work on speaker cables, should I consider Lincoln Logs for my sub cables? 🤔
Lowes sells a plastic cone shaped tower called a rebar chair. Its 58 cents. It looks good under the cables and it does improve the sound. Improved imaging and focus, is noticeable in my system. Dirt cheap! Looks good and sounds good. All you have to lose is $15 at Lowes. Just try it with a open mind. Yes I am serious.
Been using rebar chairs for years and yeah they do make nice improvement !.
Hi Danny. I have been using cable risers for years. The best cheap option is 3 wooden chopsticks and some string tied into a tepee. This costs practically nothing and is an easy way of testing this principle, to see if it can work for you. Give it a whirl.
When you see one’s for £100s each, it’s clearly a rip off.
I recently took a motorsports wiring course. For digital signal wires that connect CANBUS components, not only are you not supposed to run parallel wires, the twists per inch is specified! Very similar to your closer to 90 degree explanation. It cancels noise in high frequency data wires.
no radio frequency in speaker signals, so the digital example does not apply.
So how do I manage the 50 cables hanging off the back of my equipment? I can't seperate all those cables in the cabinet. Is there a similar cable management system for all the power, RCA and speaker wire mess behind the cabinet?
So is leaving cables tangled up with my av systems other components and resting on carpet a bad idea?
It just means you haven't fallen into the rabbit hole. Good job!
@@fredygump5578
Haha!! I envy him.
They only work if set up with a downhill slope toward the speakers correct? Actually, I think your static electricity analogy is a bit of a stretch. That is unless you're scooting the cables around on a carpet like a dog's itchy butt and develop a charge like the balloon on your shirt. But if knowing they're there influences your psychoacoustic perception, have at it! :- )
Yes. It's just the laws of physics. Remove or minimize as many variables that can transform an electrical signal. And all transformation is degradation. I am a believer. Now first i need money to buy a high end system, so i can also experience that influence. I like your practical approach to solving the problems in signal paths.
Will it make a difference on a ceramic tile floor?
Okay, this can make perfect sense on a concrete slab home. There is a grid of rebar in the concrete. The home's electrical system, if it's a relatively new home, within the last 50 years or so, the electrical system is grounded to the rebar in the slab.
So, the question then remains. How high off the floor do the cables need to be? Has anybody tested different elevations?
This is the problem with science that's not well understood. It's just arbitrary and maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't, maybe it could make it worse. How would you know, other than trusting your brain? PS. IT (brain) LIES TO US.
But hey, give it a try. If you think it makes a difference, it probably makes a difference.
@@erics.4113 He could raise his cables 2 feet off the floor and see if it continues to get better . ..
To minimise this effect you could put the hifi in one of the bedrooms and sleep downstairs, if you live alone.
I've always been told that rising the cables is only really needed if it's a concrete floor with rebar in it. Something about the cables being close to the metal rebar causes an induction effect.
I actually don't know what's happening but don't doubt it's noticeable in a high end hifi system. Because what isn't? ;)
My cement floors do as you describe...
I have read that even a regular carpet can generate static electricity that can affect the cables. Risers are one way to get those cables up and away from any potential static or induction interference. Just realize, it's a tweak, not a cure-all!
@@dmark2639 Bbbbbutttt it is a cure for floor generated resistance. In the first system I put the speaker cables on risers-er- cardboard boxes... it removed a haze, a dampened thing on the high frequencies that I simply could not sort until that moment. And what are other tweaks? Let's say I use sorbothane for the feet of some gear or speakers, yes it's a tweak, but the tweak cures a problem. Tweaks are not silly flamboyant flourishes, they are cures for real sonic problems in a room. Spend a few years treating room s and you'll understand that tweaks are, when used properly, cures for genuine sonic interference in the sound your hearing from the system through the room. And by all this I do not mean tweaks bought from $$$$$$$ vendors, I mean an understanding of materials and physics and using the best materials to solve problems, it is amazing what one can do with just the few materials that actually apply to audio, the aforementioned Sorbothane, Rockwool, MDF, mass loaded vinyl... cheers.
If cables only interact with rebars inside concrete floors, then why is this happening? >>> ruclips.net/video/8yaOUrULYP4/видео.html
@@dmark2639 only if there was something causing a rubbing motion constantly
I have a physics degree, but don't claim to be a physicist or any kind of authority on electrical engineering, but what I did learn from the few introductory papers in electrical theory I took, was that when a current passes through a wire, there is a heck of a lot more going on than just electrons moving in a conductor. The properties of the resulting fields, frequency dependant inductance and reactance... sure you can measure them or make some kind of inference about them theoretically, but the behaviour of current is extremely complex. I always roll my eyes when I hear people insist that what you measure is what you get... I would compare that to dropping a line over the side of a boat to measure the depth and then claiming to know everything about the ocean. Sure, Danny uses measurements to determine some primary parameters of acoustic systems, but he understands what he is measuring, it's limitations, what the measurement is telling him and what it isn't. I changed out my speaker cable for the helical construction type of cable that Danny uses here, because I immediately recognised when I saw it, that the geometrical configuration of the cable would have a significant effect on the fields created around the cable, and therefore the self-induced field effects on the signal. I can't say that lifting the cables off a non-electrically neutral surface will make an improvement, but I can guarantee it will make a difference to the signal. If you alter the field, you alter the signal.
@@edd2771 How is suggesting putting your wire up on junk you have lying around the house, asking for your money? Why are you asking other people for answers? Why don't you get your own answers? I expect that Danny doesn't give you the answers you want because he cannot say whether a given modification will be a subjective improvement to you. he is telling you to try it and find out for yourself. As for double blind tests, If you can't hear a difference, don't do it. Nobody is holding a gun to your head, but you will never know until you try things for yourself. Cheer up Ed, it's just a hobby.
@@edd2771 Ed, what are you doing? Are you here just because you like arguing about nothing with strangers? I am not interested. It's boring and pointless. If you disagree, I really don't care, just say what you believe, maybe I'll read it maybe I won't. No one is obligated to engage with you.
When cd players were first introduced it was claimed that because they all measure the same they all sound the same, which they clearly didn't then someone analysed phase jitter and that explained a lot of the difference. Could there be something thats not being measured that relates to risers?
@@philspencelayh5464 That's exactly the thing, just like the early days of CD before jitter was known to be a thing, we don't know what we don't know. And even if we do know a measurable phenomena exists that affects the the signal, in the case of fields, even if could quantify some property of the fields, how do we determine it's meaning? We are dealing with a highly complex system where a current creates a fields in 3 dimensional space which acts on itself and in turn affects the current creating it and the effect varies with respect to frequency and a multitude of other factors, add to that that every medium in which the field exists has a dielectric coefficient that influences the field, and therefore the current, and it all gets very complex, very quickly. All you can know for sure is that every factor that changes in the signal path has an effect, whether it's audible, good, bad, who knows. Lifting cables of the floor and therefore changing the dielectric properties of the medium might sound better, might sound worse...All you can do is experiment and listen.
@@philspencelayh5464 Read Ethan Winer. Ethan Winer is a real engineer and musician.
I used to be an electrician and a elevator mechanic and I could trouble shoot basic electric circuits it also seemed the more I learned the more confused it seemed so I am not a electrical engineer. but I just watched a video from a guy who is a ee, somewhere along the way I learned electricity travels along the skin of an electrical wire now in this video I watched it said electrons move from electric motive force(with means the lines of force that radiate out from a wire that has electrical current moving thru it) causes electrons to flow outside the wire not on the skin or thru the core... which would mean being on the floor could very well make a diff... but to be honest it is completely over my head. I have a nice entry level system 1500$ speakers and a 3000$ receiver and A1500$ integrated amp playing airplay or CD player as a source and listening to zeppelin and the like. It probably wouldn't make a difference but it does sound pretty good. I went all thru that to say I like the way Danny explained it and if I was quite a bit upstream in a system I might be interested but since I am in the bottom 80 to 90 percent I will just say thanks for the video
"Skin effect" is a real thing in signal transmission, but it isn't a factor at the low frequencies of audio signals. There are other audiophiles with engineering backgrounds who can do a better job of what actually matters in an audio system and why.
Yep, this skin effect non-sense and cable riser bs has been debunked by audio research over the years. There's published scientific papers out there on it. These kind of audio guys refuse to acknowledge them or read them and just trust their ears. Well science has also taught us our ears and brain can't be trusted either. At least not for this sort thing were memorizing fidelity is required. Why blind tests always debunk this nonsense. There's plenty of audio demonstrations out there that easily fool human hearing and the mind. Statistically much of this is all in our heads.
@@fredygump5578 Like Dr. Floyd Toole and Ethan Winer.
I hope you make a video on Cryo treatment for wires, tubes, etc.
i use clothespins for this,also use it when cables are close to eachother to keep a distance
Daanny I only come here for the plain truth. You lay everything on the table. It's easy to understand and everything I've learned here matches my own findings. I'm putting into practice everything I've leaned here over the years. Unfortunately currently I don't have room for indoors hifi. But I built a completely sq build. Competing in IASCA SQ daily truck comp this season. I have custom passive crossovers with mylar film caps and sonic caps bypass caps. Braided my own cables with a 7/16 poly ripe center wrapped with custom braided 16gx6 - 28 strand conductors woven by hand each half wrapped in tpfe tape then wrapped as one. Each conductor is wound in opposing directions. Then soildered and terminated on the ends. My hands are still cramped. But man was it worth it. Image and stage jumped to life. Upper vocal ranger. No words. Took me 3 years to get here and still not done. Lol😂 blackhole of hifi! Love ❤️ it. Danny keep it up.
I think it would be helpful for the skeptics if you were able to show some measurements or data comparing before and after cable risers.
Its a good idea but what would you measure?
@@AT-wl9yq if using cable risers produce a hearable difference in the sound, it should be possible to measure these effects. Otherwise there are only „earwitness“ accounts, made by people with flawed and imperfect measuring tools (human hearing).
Of course its totally fine for people to use cable lifters if that’s what makes them happy. But if you make scientific claims you have to be prepared to give scientific prove.
@@AT-wl9yq the voodoofactor ?
@@HenneB I can't say if they make a difference or not because I never tried them. The reason I said what are you going to measure, is we can't measure everything we hear.
"Of course its totally fine for people to use cable lifters if that’s what makes them happy. But if you make scientific claims you have to be prepared to give scientific prove."
That's something else entirely. The experience I have with people who claim "science", is they talk about it but never do it. For example, I'm sure you've heard of Audio Science Review (I think that's what its called.). He seems like a nice guy, but when I pointed out that he doesn't do anything even remotely resembling science, he seemed to get a little upset. But when I made my case, which is fairly simple, the discussion was over. He has a channel to build, and he's not going to let real science get in the way of that.
That's why I'm asking, what are you going to measure. Do you want to win an argument, or do you want to get to the truth. If you want to win an argument, no measurements, test, evidence, etc... will ever do unless I get the results you want me to get. If you want the truth, then you need to use real science. So unless you can come up with something real, we can't have a discussion.
@@cbts001a4 That's a typical response for someone who doesn't know how science works.
Lets have another look at my question.
"Its a good idea but what would you measure?"
Now is that so complicated you can't give me an answer? Its a very simple question.
Is this just something one can try with speaker cables? Not power cords ?
Nice video as always 😊 a cheap way to test this is using
washing clip 🎶😃🎶 have fun all 👍
I have just made speaker cable risers from oak wood and i can definitely hear a difference. More fine low-level detail, freer very high frequencies and more dynamic, faster transients and perceived louder peaks. My hardwood floor has underfloor water heating and I believe I have reduced the capacitance of the cables by raising them 6 inches off the floor..
My system is very good at resolving detail. My older Exposure amplifier is -3dB I believe at 100 kHz so it has a very extended frequency response. I do my best to have very clean AC, as little RF as possible and negligible susceptibility to non-audio signals so the amplifier can spend its energy on audio-band signals. Speaker cables are Kimber Crystal 24, length of each side is 4.5 metres or about 14 feet. Another huge improvement was gained by isolating the KEF Reference Three Two loudspeakers from the floor with compliant anti-vibration feet for washing machines. Here again huge amounts of treble energy liberated after isolation, better detail resolution.
All the best, Rob in Switzerland
In commercial installations involving transmission lines, GIL or Gas Filled Lines use Nitrogen and Sulphur Hexafloride (SF6) as a dielectric. Yes, I know the comparison is quite unlikely given the parameters at audio frequencies but I have oftentimes wondered how long before someone develops GIL audio cables but why go to that expense when your grandkids tinker toys, Lincoln Logs, or Legos wind up in our audio system. As for me, I saving my money for a Flux Capacitor to recap my passive crossovers 😉
I heard that using Flux Capacitors in your crossovers can help solve phase issues between drivers 😏
@@zackw4941 yes, Any time delays would be eliminated 😂
That is because they call it Stormy Monday but Tuesday is just as bad but Wednesday makes me glad.
@@zackw4941 But doc needs those for the Delorian
Wire's capacitance can't be denied in higher voltages. We started using "medium" voltage, (3000 vac), wiring where I used to work and the wire would hold enough charge unplugged that it could kill you if you didn't remember to discharge by shorting it.
On one of our trips to ikea, purchased some cheap glass tea light holders with little slot designs at the top that could (effectively) cradle my cables. And - dammit - it made quite a difference.
Lol I didn't want it to work either.
Danny - you always bring "UP" the best subjects. Wink - grin...
Now, because of this video, the price of Tinker Toys is going to go way up on Amazon. Hahaha
All the best to you and yours, Kevin
Too many are approaching this wrong.
The 𝙚𝙭𝙩𝙚𝙧𝙣𝙖𝙡 𝙛𝙞𝙚𝙡𝙙𝙨 𝙞𝙨 𝙬𝙝𝙚𝙧𝙚 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙬𝙤𝙧𝙠 𝙞𝙨 𝙙𝙤𝙣𝙚, ... where the energy is transferred.
Instead of conventional wisdom focusing on conductive paths... (floor static, or nails, rebar, etc), the physics at play here seem to be the E and B fields' interaction with it's environment.
I'd suggest plausible impacts (soundstage dimensionality, openness) may most align with the disturbance and corruption of the external electric field and magnetic field.
If that's the case, then that environment's permeability and interaction with the external fields is an element at play.
𝙀𝙣𝙚𝙧𝙜𝙮 𝙞𝙨 𝙘𝙖𝙧𝙧𝙞𝙚𝙙 𝙗𝙮 𝙛𝙞𝙚𝙡𝙙𝙨 𝙣𝙤𝙩 𝙫𝙞𝙖 𝙚𝙡𝙚𝙘𝙩𝙧𝙤𝙣𝙨... a mammothly common misconception. Decades of over simplification of electricity flow contributes to this misunderstanding.
All said;
It's plausible a capable rig in an well sorted room could delineate such differences.
Openness, space, dimensionality, these represent some of the smallest, least significant voltage variations present at the mic capsule.
Certainly thought provoking.
The Poynting vector S = E × B, the vector cross product of E, the electric field vector and B, the magnetic field vector. The Poynting vector magnitude is zero if either E or B vector magnitudes are zero, so there is no energy transfer if either E or B vector magnitudes are zero. The electric field vector E and the magnetic field vector B and the Poynting vector S are perpendicular to each other. The magnetic field vector B is curled around the current carrying conductor according to the right hand rule. There is zero energy transfer from a battery or a statically charged dielectric not in a circuit (like carpet) because there is an electric field but zero current so zero magnetic field. Fact check my comment with a physics text book.
Non-linear distortion of the audio signal waveform is harmonic or intermodulation distortion, changes in timbre, not "soundstage dimensionality, openness". Stereophonic "dimensionality" requires level or time difference between left and right stereo channels, which are part of the recording, not part of the playback system if left and right channels are identical and independent.
Disconnect one left or right amplifier input and listen for any music from the speaker on the disconnected side.
Your T-shirts are going to give the audiopheliac a run for his money, that's very nice
in the UK back in the past some audiophiles experimented using fine fishing lines attached to the ceiling lifting the cables & claimed it made a difference i kid you not.
It's a win-win.... Buy & try the Tinker Toys, and if you don't like it, give them to some kids. Somebody wins! And, it's not some crappy plastic toy that will go into landfill... it's a biodegradable solution!
Excellent, thanks
Would lifting traces off the PCB on a complimentary output stage of an amplifier help as well ? I mean between the transistors' emitters and emitter resistors and then all the way to output coils/resistors ? What about the positive and negative DC supply rails ? All those capacitively (electrolytics!) coupled stages of modern amplifiers must surely be terribly detrimental to the sound and miles of these tracks are in the same PCB plane ! What are the Engineers thinking ???
PCB layout do's and don'ts are well understood. Capacitive coupling, signal coupling, ground planes, trace width, component placement are all taken into account as part of a design. Hopefully, an attempt at humor. Otherwise, exaggeration sprinkled with a few "technical" terms is jibberish.
@@jfritzy4358 Wait ... are you saying that amplifier design is governed by well understood engineering principles and does not involve magic ???
Obviously, the DC supply rails need to be both at their spec DC voltages & low impedance ground level simultaneously,....thus the need for high Uf electrolytic bypass.....The PCB signal traces Should be elevated on risers above the boards ground plane throughout all signal pre-amp, power amp & extended elevated above floor surface to speakers for best possible sonics...
Hey Danny... It is SO NICE to see this subject addressed so rationally and reasonably...and with the proper qualifications and understanding. To deny that it is real, is, well, just foolish. And to recognize that it requires a certain level of performance to be notable - the area of performance I address routinely in my writing and on my channel - is just as significant.
I have been espousing this philosophy since the mid-1990s. In fact, the last time I talked about it, in my "the audio analyst Episode 22: Better sound for free," it inspired a German audio manufacturer to do a spate of measurements and to work with an aircraft turbine parts manufacturer (Eurofighter!) to laser create a boutique paramagnetic cable raiser made of a newly created proprietary Magnesium and Aluminum alloy.
I have a set and they are remarkable. Yet as you point out here, and as I have said in ALL my comments on the matter, you can use free or uber cheap minimally invasive materials, cardboard tubes (empty toilet paper or paper towel tubes), paper cups, bamboo skewers and rubber bands, etc., to see for yourself how effective it can be in your own system.
In hyper-audio systems like mine, it is so readily apparent that it would be criminal NOT to get my cables up off the floor.
THANK YOU for all your excellent work here on the channel, my friend. Keep ‘em flyin’, Danny!
Thanks, and thanks for watching.
I wonder if any of this would be measurable with a VNA? I know moving an antenna near any object can cause dramatic changes in the antennas characteristics but this is also in the UHF realm.
Just got the LTM CONCRETE Snap Rebar Chairs from Amazon and have started installing them. I will see what difference they make!
Cool !. You can also place bits of paper, cardboard, cloth (organic hemp, organic cotton, silk, etc, watch out about colourants) in the cradles and you might find slight change/voicing.
My suggestion to Danny of white Titanium Dioxide paint is because the Tio2 pigment gives a nice damping quality/voicing, muting the highs/tops a little but depending on system this can be advantageous. White sheathed power cables and signal cables have same property and I find black cables have a 'hardness' signature in comparison.......maybe Apple know something they are not saying lol. Please let us know what you find with your experiment. Cheers..
I'm always curious about using high voltage insulated cable that we discard at the power company for speaker cable it's #2 stranded welding cable type cooper with 15000v insulation ( stupid question but it's free ) ???
Any idea what the mechanism for the perceived improvement is? I can't think of anything myself, all of the floors in my house (and a tremendous amount of others too) are wooden so I can't see how any electromagnetic effect can be involved.
The mechanism is psychological
My HEMP insulated wires sound even better!! But only if I hang them from organic silk threads.
Actually, 11 gauge RG-8 Coax is a fantastic sounding speaker wire and I would sincerely love to see a comparison. I would buy the RG-8 and mail it to you to compare.
Is it electrical or vibrational issues affecting the cable, and what’s under the floor? If height doesn’t matter then perhaps using slit pipe insulation,cut into short pieces would do the job too
Cable risers work for me. I paid $35 for enough 3D printed plastic risers to suspend my cables off the floor. The increase in clarity and focus is obvious.
Thanks for sharing, Danny.
Hmmm...not saying it is not an improvement, but if it were me, I would not want the risers made out of a conductive material like plastic or metal. Maybe try wood or ceramic, cork, or even cardboard in your system to test the theory...
@@dmark2639 That's a reasonable suggestion. I may try it, though I'm pleased as is. Happy listening!
What about the dielectric properties of your 3D printed plastic?? 😭🤣😭🤣😭🤣
I understand that we don't live on an orb moving thru a vacuum, but rather a stationary extended flat plane, yet _I'M_ the krazy one...
Recently i made some cable risers for 2 systems i have.. one system is on a wooden floor and the other sitting on a concrete floor. Both made differences in clarity/ separation and definition. As a result i also found the volume didn't need to be turned up as much to enjoy the definition of instruments and with one of the systems i really noticed a difference in soundstage, there is a depth to the the positioning on the instruments.
@Cody Smith Hey, you have yet to answer my question regarding "controlling one's Dreams". So do you believe that this is possible (just as I described above) or do you also contend that what I am suggesting concerning Dreams is simply non-sense / impossible?
@Cody Smith "...a blond test"? are you testing hair tinctures in audio?
@Cody Smith I did a blonde test. It was stupid.
I've used cable risers for a few years now. I'm not 100% sure I hear a difference but, I just made some cheap ones cutting up a 2x4. Cost me $3 and had the hardware store make the cuts. I have no problem using them because they cost next to nothing.
You should be extremely embarrassed. That's a good reason to not use them.
@@neandrewthal I know...I suck.
I think it is worth saying the obvious BTW. The sounds that make that final big difference in realism in sound stage are in the micro details. There are a lot of things that can muffle these tiny micro or pico volt signals. This is where coupling capacitors, connectors, teflon dielectric, and cable architecture all come into play. So your comment that most people will never hear this is spot on. Most systems while very nice at their level just do not play these sounds that spook us and excite us. When it all comes together it is pretty amazing. I can spontaneously sense the human emotion of the artist singing. It is captured by a microphone and ends up years later in my sound room on demand. It is like that observation when a mother spontaneously lactates upon hearing her baby cry while not responding to any other child in the room. It is in our DNA, and we respond when it is done right.
Picovolt signals making an AUDIBLE difference?????
At dealers, shows, that I have seen the use of risers, the explanation was always the same, static electricity in the carpet was affecting the sonics and that it wouldn't have much effect on wooden floors. Never heard of rebar in concrete issue or see how cryogenically treating the risers would improve things. But hell if it works, c'est la vie.
I use them on my TV and the picture it was amazing returned from black and white to color!
Pschhhh, that's pedestrian. My TV went full 3D ! 🤣
I lifted the cable to my fridge, milk lasts now 3 month longer...ok occasionally the fridge is now humming vivaldi in the middle of the night, but we got used to that...just hoping the fridge doesn't discover various metal genres
Tried it back and forward a few days with my speaker cables, sounded better without the risers and just lying on the carpet. There was definitely a difference, with the risers voices became thinner and almost fatiguing. I now use them to route the power cables over the signal cables but stay away from the speaker cables 👍 Still find it strange to notice a difference 😳
🤣🤦♂️
Looks cool. But I’m married.
I have the same struggle... Halp! 😜
Are you serious! I've had Cardas,, Audio quest,and still have Some Kimber,and. Super High end MIT cable's.but, found some incredible results with just 12 ga.romex! The trick is,slit the insulation and remove the Black and Red solid core wires.then,fix the end of those wires under a weight,then on the other end , stick them in a drill,and twist them to eliminate all RF frequency.if you do it right,it will astound you!!!
Seeing the high dollar cable risers at AXPONA was a highlight of discussion 😅
When you explain it makes sense. 👍
I started using cable risers after following the uTube channel, A stereophile in Seattle. I can vouch that keeping the power cord off the floor makes a huge difference. As for speaker cable I’m not sure as I’m still looking for the right cable. I’ve sued from I could have bought a small car with the money to lamp cord. Maybe I’ll give you a call and try yours. Good video.
And now of coarse the power cord.
The next step is to suspend the cables in a vacuum! Remove all of those electrical interactions with the atmosphere, which we know is there, because lightning is a thing.
Plastic "pizza savers" (those little white plastic tables in pizza boxes) should work fine, especially the ones that are open like a tripod and don't have the "table top" part which could introduce more dielectric absorption.
7:36 - This was a MUCH needed explanation, as well as nicely put. I always just love how folks can completely dismiss something as being not true for the fact that they themselves cannot hear it, taste it, smell it, see it, etc etc. Of course often it is merely a case of how resolving the Audio system is in the first place..., and also that (which Danny clearly stated) some tweaks simply may not work for a particular system (in this case cable / floor), but again that doesn't therefore mean that "it does not work / does nothing". Then again if you hear no difference then by all means don't waste your money -OR- even IF you hear a difference and the difference is simply way to small to justify the cash outlay, well then again don't waste your money. However do determine all of this for yourself... and never simply take anyone's word on anything in Life (IMO 😀).
@Cody Smith Do you believe that it is possible for some people to actually gain control of their dreams (wake within their dreams without actually waking up) and therefore be able to live out fantasies within their dreams (as well as fully remembering what took place while they were dreaming upon waking up)... very much like in the movie Inception.
@Cody Smith Also you're missing my entire point (Well, one of my two points) if you're asking me if I BELIEVE vs. if you're asking me if I happen to KNOW.... unless of course you are truly only interested in whether or not I BELIEVE vs if I happen to KNOW if something is in fact true or not.
@Cody Smith I for one don't go through life Believing or Disbelieving something (neither does one very much good), and instead I choose to prove to myself whether something is in fact true or not... and for those things for which I cannot prove, I simply choose not to either Believe or to Disbelieve... I do however often Hypnosize.
So if I start raving like a lunatic and telling you about all my imaginary friends you have to believe me? It's not my fault if you can't see them.
@@neandrewthal No, not at all however you (I) also shouldn't disbelieve and/or judge the person (in such a negative manner). Just because someone doesn't Believe something (know it to be True), they need not Disbelieve it either. May I please ask what do you think about my other comment concerning "controlling one's Dreams". Do you believe that is possible, or simply too far fetched and therefore only something out of the movies (the movie Inception as an example).
I have a pair of speakers (ADS) that's over 25 yrs old.. they were working fine until I changed the impedance on the amplifier from 4ohms to 8 and I switched them around putting the speaker that was normally on the left and the other on the right.. I got major rattle on the low frequencies then I switched them back, right to left and the rattle went away? .. is this possible?.. I left the amplifier impedance switch at 8ohms
Sometimes keeping, or even getting to the point, where one has an open mind, takes work. This is where the ball gets dropped and many players walk off the field. There are some people that come into the game with their minds made up as to where their limits and saturation points of information are. These are the people that are generally the hardest to convince. However, once in a while the light goes on and the ball gets picked up and the player scores and everyone wins- well almost everyone!
I use cork sanding blocks on a hardwood floor with Nordost Red Dawn on a modest setup (Rega CD and a 10 watt PSE).
And it gives a better detailed bass.
Mr. Research,
In your experience, are the sonic results of the cable lifting phenomenon only applicable to speaker cables?
Or, should all the cables in the system be lifted?
Thank you.
The same can apply to all cables, but the greatest effect appears to take place with speaker cables.
I watched your video on getting the speaker cables off of the floor. I didn't want that to be a thing. Two months later my girlfriend cleaned up the living room and took all the cables off the floor and stuck them under the tv to get them out of the way. When I woke up I didn't know she had done anything but she was playing music and I could tell right away something had changed. It was so obvious that it was better, I could hear things in the music that I've never heard and she plays these songs a lot. Seeing 2 garbage bags by the front door told me she had cleaned up the spot where she sits on the floor in front of the tv. I knew without looking that the wires weren't on the floor anymore. Does it make a difference, way more than you think it will, get them off the floor, the difference just might shock you. It's noticeable immediately.
Don’t you think the acoustics of cleaning up a room would have much more of an effect than speaker cables not being on the floor
@@ar_xiv no, having the wires off of the floor has made a difference. The room was cluttered many times since and the sound has not changed.
I would love to the differences quantified somehow. Maybe a spectral decay measurement?
I started off wondering if this video was posted 13 days late ...
still for the effort of cutting up some cardboard to make risers its worth a go
wonder if my radiogram will sound better for it though.