Wolverine Ruling Update
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- Опубликовано: 18 сен 2024
- Quick update on the official ruling on how Wolverine works from Fantasy Flight Games
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#marvelchampions #xmen #wolverine 
Игры
First off I love that this is the drama in this community. No politics or other stuff, just this.
Secondly, I play as though these types of cards count toward the 40-50 card limit because the cards and instructions don't say that they don't count.
Lastly, with the second point - I would have play tested the same way. Whether you search your deck and discard pile for the card or you just leave it out during set up you are in the same exact board state as you would be if you searched. Another example of something similar is Mutagen Formula. "put a goblin thrall into play engaged with each player shuffle the deck." I just leave out the necessary thralls rather than shuffling them in cuz it's kind of a waste of time. I do the same thing with Caps Shield during setup. No matter what I'll end up with the shield as the 7th card in the opening hand so there's no reason to do the search or go through the process of mulliganing it if it's going to end up there in the end. It's possible that FFG were originally throwing out the play tests where they did this as you suggested and then when asked the playtesters explained themselves and FFG allowed it.
A different type of example of this "streamlining" - You are Drax with 10 health fighting a final stage villain with only 1 health left. Villain attacks you for 5 and you play your 0 cost "Paypack" that deals your attack back to the villain. Are you really going to count down the damage on Drax before you finish the game? No, you're going to end the game there because the game is over.
In my opinion the real mistake here is that the text doesn't have the standard "Shuffle your deck" instructions after the search.
Totally agree with your take on this, the second part is the really tough part of it.
Great video and you addressed the issue in a professional manner. Keep up the great work.
Also, I heard the play testers did bring the issue up but not sure what happened after. Prehaps FFG knew of this and wanted to provide an errata or a FAQ like they mentioned recently?
Appreciate the kind words. And if the playtesters did that’s even more nuts. And yeah they errata a lot of things. I’m sure this is just one more ha
Not sure why I wouldn’t just put it into play as part of set up. LOL. Why take the risk. It also seems it doesn’t count towards my deck size so double bonus. It will be my 31st card and I will put it into play as part of setup. Done!!
@@patrickmcgee8318 Perfection explanation!
I just want to say thanks for covering this with a level of understanding and grace.
Most comments I've seen in the comunity have been...strongly worded.
But you have so far managed to cover it from both perspectives as well as the perspectives of the designers. So thank you for that. It's not an easy thing to do.
This a great info vid to keep up with the on goings of the community and games! Very cool
I feel like what fixes everything is just adjust the timing of Hero Setup to before you draw your starting hand. Which can easily be done in next FAQ update. It does hurt Black Panther and Captain America (a little). If you don't want to hinder them, then the solution is to make 2 setup windows, one for Permanent cards and one for not.
There are really not many things that can be said in favor of a rule that playtesters disregard and the designers don't even care. But this is a living card game, it's supposed to evolve and change, errata and revisions on the rules are done all the time. Just recently they overruled a previous ruling that stated that a single card could have two instances of surge. Just release an Errata for Spectrum, Vision and Wolverine and change their abilities to something else like "After you select this identity during setup (step 1) put their permanent cards into play".
I think the issue here is that if "most" playtesters are playing your game the way that is intuitive to them and that they think is correct but isn't, then there is a problem with your rules.
I'm sure I missed some nuance in the rules, but, as a new player who bought the core set and a few add-ons, I play Wolverine "wrong" the same way the playtesters did. As someone who comes from competitive games, I get sweating over tiny nuances in rules.
This game is purely co-op. Based on the available content on RUclips, it's mostly played solo.
I understand wanting to play a "clean" game, but no system is perfect. In a co-op or solo scenario, a house rule, especially for a scenario that most people would intuitively play the same way, seems reasonable.
RAW may be imperfect, but RAI is pretty clear. I hope I never run into anyone complaining about this while playing Warhammer.
So I agree on RAI. Keep the claws out. Make life easier. The problem is (and this is mentioned in the follow up video I believe, can’t full remember now it’s been a while) they doubled down on it and said, no the rules intended are that you should have shuffled that card in. Then that brings issues with the permanent keyword as it only works intended when they say so. There are also other issues with different cards where we all kinda agree what the rules should be. But then they rule on hall of heroes the opposite because they like to keep RAW. I should do a much later follow up on this but I also don’t love beating this dead horse haha.
@@D20Woodworking Thanks for the explanation and extra context. I think my original comment came from too much time playing competitive games with rules lawyers. The way you put it does make sense.
It’s all good! And definitely play whatever way makes you happy with this. But just the inconsistency is what has been driving people nuts. And I can imagine how crazy it gets in the competitive scene.
I just wish companies would be honest. I would respect FFG so much more if they said. We screwed up, this is what the card should say, and for the foreseeable future we have no intention of reprinting this card.
100% agree and well said!
So, I figured that I was going to play Wolverines claws just as visions cards. This isn't league play, so it won't hurt anyone so who will care. I really find this to be funny though that some people are making such a big deal out of this.
I think the reason the rules being unclear is a problem, is due to so many players coming from similar competitive games like Magic.
*EDIT* I'm a dummy who hasn't read the rules in years, and got it confused with LotR and other games.
I'm not sure what the issue is on playing the card. I interpreted the text as basically "begin the game with this card in play". It doesn't go into your hand it goes straight to the "board". There's no issue if you are performing setup requirements before drawing cards for your hand. Drawing cards is the last thing you should be doing before the first round begins. For example with Colossus I search the card stated on his setup and add it to my "hand", shuffle, and then draw 5 cards to meet the 6 card hand size. I interpret it as "begin the game with this card always in your starting hand". I don't know why Wolverine's claws say anything about discard pile though, my assumption is a copy/paste or an interaction with a mechanic that doesn't "exist yet". I think their wording could be more precise though.
So set up is actually the last thing you do. You draw cards first. Mulligan. Then set up. Page 35 images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/a3/76/a376cbb4-0440-4082-995b-975dac4f82cf/mc_rulesreference_v14_2_compressed_1.pdf steps 13-15.
This is what the problem is. So you can draw it into your hand and then you do the set up. Obviously you can house rule things to fix it. But if you’re someone trying to play the rules exactly as written. Then there are issues.
@D20 Woodworking Ah you're right. I'ts been a few years since I've read the rule book tbh. I quit playing for awhile and couldn't be arsed to read it again with X-Men release. I really should though 🙃. I remember now Caps setup for his shield is similar no? In which case you can mulligan it then grab it from the discard pile if you draw it early. Which is the same case with wolverine's claws. If you draw them then just discard them for a mulligan and put them in play from discard. If you don't draw them don't risk the mulligan which seems unintuitive at first but mulligans aren't always necessary. The claws let you play any attack card practically for free and is permanent so it's pretty strong tbh.
*EDIT* Upon further investigation. (Actually reading the entirety of the setup rules). The only risk I see is the card being pulled before hero setup. Which isn't even a problem in the majority of scenarios that I'm familiar with.
I'm so used to playing LotR and Arkham and other card games. I forgot how weird the setup for Champions is lol. So pardon my initial ignorance plz.
@@danielh9212 It's all good I need to reread set up rules all the time since they are all just slightly off haha. I haven't played Arkham or LOTR in a while so now I need to read them again haha.
So drawing the claws into your hand after mulligan isn't going to happen all the time or even most of the time, but I had it happen to me in a game already. So I had to restart the game because of that since it's a dead card in my hand. It's not a huge deal but they have done these set up cards before (such as Cap) so they know how to do it properly, this was just a error made most likely but the frustrating thing is when they double down on it and say, "no this is how it was intended." That Wolverine would never have his claws. Anyway, it's not a huge deal just a frustrating one (or can be).
I've playtested for FFG in the recent past (not on Marvel Champions) and I can just about guarantee that the playtesters pointed out this issue *in addition to* reporting that they pulled the claws out before they drew their initial hand. FFG didn't "let the playtesters break the rules," they ignored the full input from them (in my educated opinion). FFG doesn't want to set a precedent with setup permanents that they will have to go back and retroactively fix on several other heroes, so they are stuck with the "waffling" at this point.
All that is to say, this is an FFG issue, not a playtester issue. Playtesters, at best, get a copy of the game for their time spent and are dedicated fans that really care about the game they playtest, at least in my experience. 😀
That’s really good to hear from a playtester! It’s nice to hear your perspective and help understand
There has been a long history with FFG and funky setup timings (e.g. lone wanderer contract in LotR and possibly prior stories I am not aware of).
I don’t read too much into the playtesting thing. A plausible explanation is that playtesters got the card as written, played it ‘wrong’ and FFG did pick up on the issue and fixed it. For one reason or another the printer got the wrong version. The rest would be history.
I totally agree with you about this. They actually made another big playtesting goof in another game recently too, with their newest expansion for Cosmic Encounter, and that pissed me off because that's one of my favorite games of all time! (By no means did it ruin the game or the expansion, it just stood out to me lol.)
(The actual goof was that there are "Hazard" cards and you are supposed to draw one in a specific phase in the middle of a turn, yet some of them have effects that don't make sense if they are drawn during the phase that the rules say they are supposed to be drawn in. And the designer's response in the BGG forums was "well, I guess I've been playing wrong.")
Agreed the answer is annoying. But I really just want to play how it was intended. So, if that’s how it was play tested then I’m alway putting permanents in play with my hero.
I actually completely agree with everything you are saying. I feel it goes beyond just this issue, the game from its release has had several mechanical/rules problems. I have always said it is a mess in that way but thematically incredible. The feeling I get is like a modern video game released before completion, this game seems to have been rushed to print. A basic fundamental piece of the game Defending has changed ~4 times! Now there is keyword issues, the sad part is the team/designers just do not seem to care about their own game. As you point out the response involving testers and look at the recent play of MG and the response from Phoenix and Cyclops team-up card, even the writer questions it. I really love this game and want it to be the best it can be, but the team really needs to get their s#!t together, mechanically speaking, because thematically they are killin' it!
You've played great gobs more of LotR and Arkham than I have, but has FFG ever had an error/play issue like this?
I just can't understand how some people in the community can take this and make it into sucha huge deal. I've seen so many people just insulting/threatning/mocking others over the rulings for this.. yeah it's kind of a "controversial" ruling but so many people are just blowing it up
They have ruled but acknowledged some may not like this ruling so have reasserted "play however you want".
So IMO it's clear but if I don't enjoy the rule they are endorsing an alternate. I agree they should not have endorsed a specific house rule as it confuses.. I'd personally have simply linked the Golden Rules if it was me :)
So IMO the issue is closed and we can all play Wolverine as intended... if we wish.
THE GOLDEN RULES
If the text of this Rules Reference directly contradicts
the text of the Learn to Play book, the text of the Rules
Reference takes precedence.
If the text of a card directly contradicts the text of either the
Rules Reference or the Learn to Play book, the text of the
card takes precedence.
Honestly people should just use common sense and play the card as if the cost was 0. This is a casual game, not MTG tournament play
It not about it being competitive but more about templating and consistency. Using common sense should be associated with a basis of how things should work in the game and players can draw conclusions using existing cards and rules.
@@deckofsomethings5320 there is already rules for when - = 0. Again if you actually read what I said the game is casual
I did and even casual games need rules to follow, but 🙄
@@deckofsomethings5320 wow your next level, you clearly lack comprehension. The rule already exists, you should try reading them
No reason to get snarky. But OK let's look at pg. 5 of the RRG under the Dash, it tells us that a character with a basic power with a dash value can Not use said power. Now we apply common sense to that and can extrapolate that a cost of Dash would mean we are unable to play such a card. The statement you keep referring to regarding Dash = 0 is in fact to the game trying to interpret the Dash, meaning the Dash would be treated as 0 not that it actually equals it. It is for example the difference in the ally Hulk THW (-) v Marvel Boy THW (0), FYI. Good day sir!
I don't think Alex is a he.
I still don't care about the rule.
Ah my bad!
fix what? omg guys, just start the game with the claws in play...so much drama lol