Thank you for a great video. Currently I am at a point where I can print with ABS and get very good results. Here are the things on my list: * CR-10S (30 x 30 x 40 cm build volume) * Print on glass * heat enclosure I made out of a large carton box (openings for control unit to be outside of it) * Bed temperature 80 degrees C, nozzle 235. * Printing speed between 60-30 mm/s, acceleration down to around 5-10 mm/s/s. I would think this ensures better bonding at corners, preventing layer seperation. * Layer height around 0.12 mm, also experimenting with thicker layer heights. * Something I picked up recently in another RUclips video, a cover at the bottom of the hot end enclosure to divert the air blowing over the hot end away from the object you are printing. Not sure if this is only limited to the Creality machines but it seems to be a game changer for me. * Bed adhesion... A couple of years ago I found that applying spray on clear lacquer creates a very sticky layer on a glass surface, so much so that the ABS printed wonderfully but sometimes even ripping out chunks of glass after it cools down. More recently I read of a mixture (50/50) of white wood glue and powder sugar. Currently a combination of these substances provides great results for me. Basically I just need to reapply a diluted solution of sugar and glue to the glass, a bonus is that you do not need to expose yourself to dangerous fumes like acetone. * Brim and mouse ears: a brim is usually mandatory when printing with ABS. I found that using mouse ears (about 20 mm diameter and 0.6 mm thick) works well for longish, rectangular objects.
Fuiyooh, thanks! I did music mixing a decade ago. Plus I'm obsessed with knowledge and getting things right. Watched tutorials for hours on end and implemented their advice :-)
@@SmallBatchFactory ya, I figured you must 1) have experience, & 2) must have watched a lot of the masters. Everything from your lighting/background and expressive hand movements to your script and editing is really well done. Very telling that I don't have a print farm, but I still want a ton more videos from you. Keep it up and you'll be the next CNC Kitchen! ;)
I'm using cheap hairspray and it's does the job aswell. I like it because it's easy to apply on the buildplate (always far away from the printer to not cover the moving parts with sticky hairspray).
Thank you for sharing your experience with ABS printing with us. I'll just add some of mine own that has been quite successful: print the first layer with PETG. It sticks nicely to PEI and binds perfectly with ABS, making it nearly impossible to lift from the heatbed. Absolutely brilliant trick!
I was printing spools for filament, so a big disc, and was having no luck sticking until the end even with MagiGoo. But your PETG trick worked perfectly. Thanks!
Just wanted to say thank you for this. Your video has ended a 1 year struggle with ABS! I don't understand why everything I read on printing ABS was quite so wrong. Read to print slow, never use the fan etc. I am not using any adhesion agent, but I am printing at a higher speed and using your tips on the slowdown and fan speeds and magic is happening, thank you so much!!
I always have warping when using any fan speed, even 10%. I’m guessing you don’t have issues with fan on? Everything prints great for me except small bridges, which is frustrating because I’m printing parts for a Voron Trident build, on a Bambu Lab machine 🫢
ABS works best with an enclosure and high enough temperatures inside. I usually have around 40c. The mentioned Magigoo adhesive prevents warping from the bed pretty good and made all the difference for me.
I had the same issue. Part cooling on any sort of overhang was a must with 45c enclosure. Also fans to 100% for bridging made supports come off super easy. It also let me do crazy long unsupported bridging, almost as good quality as pla.
I’ve found chamber preheating to at least 40C improves my success in passive setups. Even with a chamber temperature sensor, I’ve yet to find a slicer setting that waits for the chamber to get to temperature before printing.
It think "wait for temperature" is a firmware specific command. If you run Klipper you could probably write a short macro that does that. You only need to either put it in your regular START_PRINT macro or run it only for specific material and therefore put it into the Slicer start GCODE
Thank you for your video! I have been trying to print test cubes with eSUN ABS+ and had trouble with warping and curling. I had the fan speed set to zero like the manufacturer recommended, but after watching your video I tried 5% regular fan speed / 30% max fan speed and it made the quality just as good as my PLA prints.
@@erolchelik 100°C bed, 240°C nozzle. Used a Ender 3 V3 SE and it will print a lot of things in ABS very well with these settings, however the cooling fan seems to sacrifice layer adhesion strength so some objects with more advanced geometry are tough to print. Tried printing a interior piece for a car and it took until the 5th time before it was able to print satisfactory quality all the way to 100%, but still had interlayer cracks and warping that had to be fixed afterwards. Test cubes were much easier.
@@xGSFxGoat thank you for the answer. It's pretty good for me too. But if I print something large then bed warping up. I didn't unaderstand why. I use ender 5 plus and magnetic build bed layer
@erolchelik ABS tends to warp a lot in general. The magnetic bed is probably a bit weak. On my Voron 0 I avoid printing things that cover the whole print bed (it's only 120x120) for that reason. My Prusa mk3 has extremely strong magnets so it's less of an issue. Id the print adheres strongly to the print bed the next logical step for it is to warp the whole bed.
"The print fell off the bed completely and got cought by the moving bed, somehow the printer managed to push the enclosure door open with the failed print and threw it on the groud to taunt me". :D You didn't forget your printers purchase aniversary by any chance?
Hey. thanks for the tips. I print the Prusament ASA with the standard Prusament ASA Profile in my Lack enclosure on my MK3. I print it on the textured sheet without any adhesives. The only thing I found very important to have is a draft shield. Also try activating the brim and - since you won't need it for the part itself - move it away from the part and under the draft shield to hold it down in case it warps from drafts. works very well for me. Also I can strongly recommend Vision Miners Nano polymer adhesive as an all purpose adhesive. It is amazing.
In my case I apply glue to avoid wasting filament. Both aooroaches work of course. With Magigoo I didn't need any extra brim so there's also less post processing work. My colleague with no enclosure uses the draft shield with success even with no enclosure.
I've had really good adhesion using a sheet of PEI lightly sanded with fine grain sandpaper. No other adhesive needed. I run the bed temperature at 115 degrees and it helps with warping. 20% cooling with a single turbine fan. It's a modified Mega S that gets fairly close to a Prusa in quality. The only limitation is I'm using binder clips to hold the sheet down to the bed as a magnetic base will weaken at those temperatures and I don't want a glue mess when I inevitably replace the sheet.
That sounds really interesting! Do you have any long term experience? I'd expect that you need to sand the PEI regularly to keep it sticky. The Prusa uses special magnets that don't weaken at those temperatures. But their heat bed cover does warp.
I've been using this setup for about three years now. I've replaced it a couple of times. Light sanding with an alcohol wipe for a smooth surface is good if you want a clean print face. Doing it a lot wears it out more quickly. I don't worry about that too much. Adhesion is almost too good. PETG will weld itself at any temperature. It IS easy to mar. I've managed a couple of Klipper head crashes (no end stops) driving the 250 degree nozzle into the bed and leaving a divot on one side. It doesn't go through so I just flip it over. If there's magnets available that have a curie temperature high enough you could get a PEI coated steel sheet. I'd be curious if there's any aftermarket equivalent available. I haven't seen anything. I was thinking an electromagnet failing all else. The clips will only hold it down around them and I have to mind the clearance with the print head on larger prints. For most of what I print it's great and minimal hassle. @@SmallBatchFactory
To me it sounds rather expensive if you have to replace the sheet once in a while. My glue bottle is still half full after all these years so the costs seem to be justified. PETG most definitely needs a thin separation layer of PVA, at least that's what I always used. I've drilled a groove into my Vorons sheet as well. The endstop is still not reliable for me. The mesh works fine though. My Prusa has a permanent Benchy hologram from forgetting to switch the bed settings. Haven't tried anything above 110c since the thermal fuses I have installed would stop me.
If you use Magigoo or some other kind of adhesive (like Kores glue stick, etc), can you still easily remove the prints off of the bed once it cools down ? or do you need a PEI sheet ?
Magigoo in particular even releases the print when cooling down. So you usually won't have issues removing them. This can vary depending on your build plate material of course, I didn't try all of them.
Vision Miner Nano Polymer Adhesive is also amazing. It saved our butts on some ASA printing. While it is possible to get good enough bed adhesion on some part geometries without it, some absolutely need it. We even needed print bed clips to prevent the part shrinkage from curling up the magnetic sheet. Good hints in this video. Thx.
Thanks! Plus the costs really aren't that high for adhesive in the long run. The Prusa has very strong magnets, no issues there. With my tiny Voron I can't put too much on the plate at once, otherwise it will definitely lift the 120mm build plate.
I was going out of my mind with a large ASA print and out of desperation I bought some Magigoo. That plus adjusting my cooling settings made all the difference. I’ve found that Magigoo on a per print basis isn’t that expensive as one application lasts multiple prints except on the most difficult designs.
Sounds like you need a pei sheet. My Ender 3 is printing ABS and ASA like a champ in a tent enclosure on a cheap PEI sheet with no brim and no glue. 255 nozzle and 105 on the bed. Pre heat for a few minutes, then fire up the print. I've had a few warps on the edge of the bed when I didn't pre-heat, but otherwise, no significant warping.
I "have them all", meaning smooth and textured PEI. Possibly be differnt if I preheat a bit longer. Since energy is expensive here and I'm I impatient Magigoo does a wonderful job. It's not always warping of course but when it does I have to start over so I rather just apply some glue.
@@SmallBatchFactoryyeah, can't argue with what works. I just found it annoying to apply the glue. I did notice with the smooth pei that I have to literally clean it before EVERY print. Also, 85 and even 95c were not enough to keep things stuck down. I'm in Southern California, so I understand expensive power. I just put in solar, but haven't turned it on yet. Just printed some ASA brackets for the conduit running into the solar and end-caps for the rails the panels bolt to. Been wanting to build a large core XY, so maybe I'll be able to power it without feeling guilty LoL.
@huzbum I wipe with IPA, but it's not always enough for me. A large CoreXY is very cool. I have a few problems with my Voron 2.4 though, I always have to adjust the first layer. Mesh leveling works great but the first layer distance is a bit hit and miss. Although the click switch is always spot on when calibrating it isn't anymore when printing. Might need to add a brush to clean the Nozzle before leveling.
@@SmallBatchFactory My current plan is to modify the design of "the 100" AWD remix to make the corner pieces and attach them inside a plywood/2x4 cube (with plexiglass doors.) Then use a Kobra Max 400x400 heated bed with 3 independent z-screws. Design wise, it's really going to be a frankenstein abomination. I basically just want it to be cheap, large, and reasonably fast. Looking cool would be great, but you can't have it all. Maybe if I make it look like a video game military loot crate that would be cool in its own way.
I love the loot crate idea! If we're honest many open frame printer don't look pretty as well. My Prusa mk3 for example, the wooden encloruse I added isn't exactly a masterpiece either but it gets the job done. Form follows function I'd say
I have a glass bed of my CR-10 where the print ripped out pieces so it might even be too much. While PEI is nice my ABS prints still need some convincing to stick perfectly.
@@SmallBatchFactory I've not had it tear out the glass. Usually if I wait for it to cool completely down it just slides off. If I have my offset a little too close it will be a bit harder.
Hey there! Hope you've been well. I was wondering if you could answer a question for me concerning ABS. So I recently got a bambulabs A1 printer. Apparently it meets all the requirements for printing ABS as well as other engineering grade materials. However the printer is not enclosed it's an open frame bed slender. I did purchase a tent like enclosure, more so to maintain a consistent temperature in my workspace and to keep pet hair away from the printer. However I'm curious If this printer should be fine printing ABS parts. So one of the concerns brought up on Reddit is related to heat and temperature that might be generated if you enclose the printer. I think the concern revolved around stepper motors as well as the motherboard. However there seems to be a bit of a debate on if the printer could generate enough heat while enclosed to even damage the components. The manufacturer doesn't recommend an enclosure, but again there's debate as to why this is the case. Some argue that it is because of potentially damaging components, others say it's more to do with product differentiation and getting people to buy more expensive printers. I'm curious to what your thoughts on this might be? Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated. My other question is regarding the fumes generated by ABS and certain filaments. There is a device some use called a bentobox that uses charcoal, HEPA filter and some fans to process the air within an enclosure. I was wondering if you have any thoughts on the effectiveness utility of something like this. Obviously it would still be used in conjunction with having a window open and not being in a completely enclosed space. But I'm curious if such a device is even worthwhile. Again any and all feedback is much appreciated. Thank you kindly, much love and gratitude. P.s. pardon any typos as I was using speech to text while walking to write this.
Hey Whyired, nice to read you again! The biggest issue with enclosures is having the power supply inside. It's giving up quite a bit of heat and will get pretty warm inside. Having it inside an enclosure regularly will wear it out quickly, occasionally for a few hours should be OK. I don't know where the A1 has its supply, I guess below the print bed. So one thing you might be able to do is put it in a table with an opening in the bottom for fresh air to the power supply. Best scenario would be having the PSU outside, rewiring the printer. That's what I did with my Prusa. For the steppers the heat is no issue. The controller board should be able to take the heat as well. Heat always shortens the life span of components, but usually not in a meaningful way. Think of how hot a PC or Laptop gets inside the case while still running perfectly fine. A charcoal filter definitely helps filtering a lot of nasty fumes. They're actually mostly particles, not gases, and can be filtered pretty good. I built one for soldering for example and it makes a huge difference. Just don't forget that you have to replace the filter material pretty regularly. I have yet to build a filter for my Voron 0.2. It's already accumulated a film on the panels from printing ABS which a filter would definitely help avoiding.
Had lifting issues with Nylon. I used "Super Glue" and glued the Brim down with it. Solved all the problems cheaply. I dont know yet how it will work with ABS. If the bed is Magnetic. Magnets on the brim .
@@SmallBatchFactory Yeh it scraped off pretty good.Given its age ,i figured i might as well try it . if i wipe it out ,id buy a new one. I needed the gears bigtime . . I cant recall what kind of bed i got. Got it a few yrs ago. all i can say its white lol.
I have a glas bed and use normal PVA glue as a slurry, that I thinly spread out with a spatula while the bed is heating evaporating the water. I even reuse the coat multiple times by just spraying the bed with water when it's between 40-50°C. It works well most of the times, ABS is just notorious. The most satisfying part for me is when everything is dialed in and the part auto releases from the bed when it's cooled down.
That's what I usually do for PLA and PETG, even on PEI. Except for the spatula, I use a wide foam brush. With ABS this was hit or miss for me. The first of the two shown red parts stuck with this, but the second didn't anymore. I assume my glue laser was too thick rather than too thin. I'm almost never patient enough to wait for the bed to cool down though. I use my wife's aquarium as a cooler (only press it on the glass, no water involved)
@@SmallBatchFactory I also think not all PVA glues are equal. Each manufacturer has his own unique blend. So if you found something that works, stick to it.
I have actually never had a problem with bed adhesion on textrued PEI. It holds super well, removes itself when cooled down and leaves a sweet texture on the bottom.
i am having problems with my nozzel stopping up while printing ABS any ideas to help me. i have run a temp tower, retraction test, flow rate test all seem ok but the nozzel keeps stopping up not sure why
That can be many things. Does it always happen after a certain time and the filament has become thicker at the tip: that's heat creep, can be amplified by high retraction values and chamber temperatures. Are you running the filament on the hot side: Residue build up. Does the clogg persistent and you can see something other than filament stuck in the Nozzle: Bad filament quality with unwanted particles. Stripped filament at the extruder gear so pushing becomes impossible: you're going too fast for your hotend to keep up. The list goes on of course.
How would you print thin walled (2-4 walls) ABS parts? I got 65°C chamber temp and using the fan at 20-30% makes this part weak for the layer adhesion. Only 0% fan makes these parts strong, but messes up all overhangs :(
You can always opt to print it slower and only use the fan for the overhangs. How on earth do you get 65c chamber temp? I'm building a insulated printer with extra 80c heaters and it currently reaches 60c max.
@@SmallBatchFactory i got a 600x400x300mm printer with a 1000W heated bed. The bed is at 100°C to get a 65°C chamber temp. I red something today that i should crank up the outer wall thickness to 0.7mm on a 0.4 nozzle to get the extra squish for thin walls with overhangs. I also will try a 60% aligned reclinear infill today for that part.
@TheWuzyy printing the wall in one 0.7mm perimeter will definitely improve adhesion. It's just not as pretty. You can also increase flow a bit, if that doesn't result in overextrusion
@@SmallBatchFactory after the first ABS print with 0,7mm layer width on a 0,4mm nozzle and 0.15mm layer height (260°C nozzle / 105°C Bed / 60-65°C chamber / Speed ~ 50mm/s / Infill: 60% aligned rectliniear) the small part came out with very clean overhangs, fine details and a perfect layer adhesion on the thin walls. With Arachne perimeters, the layer lines were on some spots even over 0.9mm wide without a problem for the CHT-nozzle. It seams ABS really loves to get squished for the best performance... and it loves hot moving air.
@TheWuzyy definitely! You can go totally overboard with squishing. 200% of the Nozzle width usually works fine, even up to 300 is manageable. We printed face shields when the pandemic started and I optimized my GCODE with wider layers to save 70% print time.
When changing the nozzle, I didn't connect the fan cable properly and been printing without cooling for the last month. Not a problem for PLA, but ASA came out as goopy mess. No wonder I had so much trouble printing small ASA parts 🤦♂
If I run my cooling fan over 50% it doesn't fuse the layers correctly with ABS but if I turn it down too much I'm getting more upward curling on these corners that have a significant overhang. I can see the part actually moving because the previous layers are still liquid 🤔. I think I need to reduce layer time even more since it is a super small part. I have it at 120 second layer time right now and that gave me the best part but there is still some up curling.
Even as little as 10% fan speed can make a big difference. You can always increase layer time but the issue is you get material oozing out and risk heat creep (but with ABS it's not a big deal).
So far, I have not had any issues with bed adhesion, nothing but PEI steel, but cooling needed some tweaking (eSUN ABS+, 250C/105C, about 40-45C chamber temp, E3V2, klipper, Dragon HF, Sherpa Mini, 2x5015 12V fans at 24V, Manta MK2 ducts, dual Z, Mag PEI, Comgrow tent enclosure)
For a glass bed. All i have done for a long long time is put a little acetone on the glass and use a failed print and slide it over the acetone and over the area the print will be. I cannot remember the last time i had an abs print come loose.
Great tips! I can also recommend breaking the straight lines with... spheres. So spherical negative volume indentations. They are pleasant to the eye and break the tension quite a lot.
@@SmallBatchFactory I very simply use metallised bubble wrap, upcycled from food delivery packaging! Just one layer on the left and right sides of the printer. I also preheat to 50-60c prior to printing. Pretty easy to reach with the Aussie summer!
That's probably the biggest difference. I peak at 40c with around 23c room temperature. A bit of isolation would go a long way surely but I already grilled my Prusa mk3 board once in the past. I got a brain fart stuck in my head regarding a Voron 0.2 with aluminum parts and chamber heating, featuring a water cooled hotend... Maybe some day
Never had an issue printing on a glass bed with and without hairspray once I dialed im a few other factors. Key is chamber temperature above 35C, bed temp of 100C, print a bit slower, zero or very little cooling, and increase the flow on the bottom layer so it really squishes that bottom layer into the bed. I think fan cooling can cause additional issues. A better approach I've found is to set the minimum layer cooling time in the slicer. This slows the print to allow the layer below to cool sufficiently.
In my humble beginnings I had the experience that printing slower just resulted in more time for the print to warp for some reason. We printed a lot of faceshields in 2020 and the faster I printed the less I had warping issues. I didn't use Magigoo back then. That was the only occasion where I printed so many of one model that I could really adjust the settings. If you have time to spare you can of course just slow down the print instead of fan cooling. With the full plate I showed in the video I needed no cooling at all since every layer took long enough.
I think it depends on what kind of printer you have. A bed slinger moves the print back and forth which is basically like having light cooling. That was my situation, where I saw contraction on corners near the doors until I got chamber temp up high enough and slowed down the print to reduce the cooling effect.
I always suspected bed movement to contribute to the unwanted cooling. A colleague uses the "curtain" that Prusa Slicer can create around the print with good success. It basically confirms the theory
Another adhesive option that works really well is dissolving filament in acetone to make a 10-20% solution, then applying with a spray bottle. You get the acetone stink, but it's very quick and convenient to apply. Just spritz with the spray bottle where needed. With black or colored filament, it's easy to see if you have the build plate coated sufficiently and what areas need touch-up.
@SmallBatchFactory I have a magnetic steel plate. It came with a PEI coating, but I flip the plate over so the PEI side is on the bottom when printing ASA.
I use that for PLA and PETG. It's much weaker than Magigoo though. For comparison, with Magigoo a warping print will bend the magnetic build plate against the magnets force instead of releasing the print
@@SmallBatchFactory wow that's a lot of force. I'll keep that in mind, can't wait to switch to ABS, I built the enclosure and getting myself mentally prepared for the trouble it comes with :D
@LukaMilosevic-c7f if you follow the tips in the video it's actually not that hard :-) It also highly depends on the model though. There were parts of the Voron ERCF I couldn't get to print since the surface are on the bed was too small (it would later be bridged to the rest of the part but it got knocked over every time). Good luck!
@@SmallBatchFactory That happened to me few times. I'm getting the hang of it after ~1kg of my first spool of PLA. Got few really nice functional prints with real world applications as well as few great looking painted small miniatures. Thank you for all the tips!
Miniatures are fine too. One of my very first prints was DOOM guy with a 0.2mm Nozzle. Turned out extremely well and with the tiny Nozzle the support material was super easy to remove. Thank you for watching! Maybe someday you'll even build a Gatoino :-)
try printing on the smooth side of your build plate, put your first layer width to about 130%. I have never needed to use glue and I always print on the smooth side of the build plate and infact it holds better than the textured side
I've also noticed a bit of increased adhesion on smooth surfaces, but for me it was never enough. I don't want to elephant foot on the first layer and I like the texture. Besides Magigoo really goes a long way, still have my first bottle ever half full.
@@SmallBatchFactory if you tune up your slicer correctly, an increase in first layer width doesn’t necessarily mean elephants foot. It just means that the first layer line is wider and promotes better adhesion to the bed.
@@SmallBatchFactory correct, I’m not overflowing just making the bottom layer 130% wider than the extruder nozzle pushes the filament down onto the bed with much more force causing it to adhere much better. The slicer accounts for the extra width and I end up with a perfect first layer. No glue needed
Meanwhile me: since 2019, I printed my abs prints with ender 3 pro which covered with xl trashbag in balcony. Even winter times in Ankara/Turkey. I was using glass bed, after the pei sheet boom CLEAN pei is my favorite.
Thanks for the nice video! Did you build your enclosure yourself? I'm also looking to build and enclosure by my self, but I am generally very untalented in woodworking or even something else ^^
Thank you for watching :-) the enclosure is my own design, yes. Made some last minute changes to fit in the Prusa MMU while building. If your printer is small enough you can just build the shown LACK enclosure from IKEA tables. Otherwise you can build one out of aluminum profiles. Putting them together is a bit like Lego. You can order them cut to size. You just need to add acrylic glass. There are probably plans and calculators floating around the web.
@@SmallBatchFactory Okey thanks for the tip with the aluminum profiles, they seem to be very sturdy and easy to install and get an enclosure out of it. :-)
@EliasX962 they definitely are. Voron printers are built with them and already integrate the enclosure for example. Depending on your region it might even be cheaper to buy a enclosed printer than sourcing profiles.
Issue with temp towers is they don't represent real world printing. Since they're small they printer needs to slow down. Back when printers were generally slow this worked fine IMO but with today's high speed printers it already makes a big difference how large the model is, meaning print time per layer.
That's pretty much how I felt when I used the test sample after being hesitant for so long. Recently took advantage of a sale and ordered 4 bottles (2 regular, 1 PC and 1 nylon)
@@SmallBatchFactory have you tried the Nylon one yet? I ordered that too but haven’t tried it yet… I only use nylon for a couple things here and there.
@@SmallBatchFactory me too… I have a 5 year old spool of ESun natural nylon and it has never been easy or fun to print with. But when it does manage to print well. It is pretty good material…
Sounds a bit like mine. I got it from "Your Droid" which is just a white label brand. I need to print it 25c over the recommended temperature to get layer adhesion. But then it's really strong, didn't manage to break off the nubs of the gear I made with it by hand.
Magigoo, yes. But I still get warping if I cool the print down too quickly. I've had some success letting it cool gradually at 5 degrees per 5 minutes but the edges still curve up a little on the larger prints. I think my next bet is to just let it sit on the plate, covered with a filament box to make a mini oven, and let it heat soak on a 100 degree build plate for an hour to relieve the internal stresses.
Are you talking about rather flat prints? For what I usually print the parts are over 5cm high. I get a hot bottom, cool middle part (~40c) and a hot top when the print finishes. Means the middle is already cold enough to not warp anymore. If the print is only a few millimeters high I'd expect the result you mentioned.
@@SmallBatchFactory Nope, it was tall. I was printing the feet for a Voron 0.2 with Mouse Ears, but no Magigoo, and the corners lifted when I let it cool naturally (bed heater off immediately) instead of letting it cool slowly over an hour (-5 degrees every 5 minutes).
@tasa4904 that's interesting, how much glue did you apply? I literally popped my Voron parts off the minute it stopped printing to immediately start the next print. Didn't have any Warping that occurred after the print finished. Might also have to do with the material used but it was just cheap regular ABS, nothing special.
@@SmallBatchFactory If anything, I had the heater bed running at 110 degrees to make the part stick without glue (bed top is about 10 - 15 degree cooler than stated temperature). Pumping that much heat below while the upper part cooled to about 40 to 50 degrees ambient temperature might have done something. Although I would expect the warp to go in reverse / create layer separation since a layer is supposed to contract on cooling, not expand... The only reason why I know that it warped on print completion is because the mouse ears were firmly stuck to the bed right up until the very end. Then I walked away and let the print cool, and came back to find the mouse ears had detached and were in the air.
Thinking about it further, I think the reason why it warped upwards is because the heat transmitted from the bottom of the print flowed to the middle layers. And then the bottom of the print cooled down quickly because the build plate is thermally conductive and equalizes quickly with the ambient air once it isn't actively heated. With a hot middle layer and a cooler bottom layer, upward warp. Next experiment then is to use Magigoo with a bed temperature set to 80.
Printing ABS for 10 years, and never used adhesives. I print on 1.5mm G10/FR4 board at 100 or 105 degrees C. Make sure to never touch it with your hands which will leave grease behind which harms the adhesion . The parts self release when the plate is cooling down. I do make use of printing a brim or mickey mouse ears to corners (slicer option)
@@SmallBatchFactory True, if you really want a magnetic build plate.. But I don't get the hype of those. Why is that so important? Do you switch build plates so often? (and if so, why?) My plate can be changed easily too, albeit not in 5 seconds but under a minute.
@winandd8649 it's not necessarily about wanting them, but many printers come with those plates today so you need to figure out another way of fixing the plate. My CR-10 uses those clamps that always stick a bit into the print area for example, so you need to be careful where to place them
@@SmallBatchFactory Okay, it came with the printer, so everyone is forced to use adhesives now.. I never bought an of the shelf printer, I've always built my own, so that's why I don't have these magnetic sheets luckily 😄
@winandd8649 they have their advantages too. I haven't seen many people print with FR4 boards but that's no reason not to use it. Many people don't like to tinker with their machine so that's a bit of an obstacle for many
Muss mir vielleicht auch mal ein Video dazu ansehen. Kann mir nur gerade nicht vorstellen, dass es meinen Workflow verbessert. Kann aber natürlich auch eifnach die Gewohnheit sein.
The major fix to me was to heat the enclosure at 40°, and bed at 110, vent at 15%. I did a temperature tower, perfect from 230 to 270 lol.and when finish i wait 20 mn to let everything cool down. No sticker, no brim.
In my case the parts usually already warp while printing. When it's done I sometimes even cool them down on a piece of stone if I'm impatient. The large print I showed in the video actually sticked perfectly for the first print but the second one always failed without glue. I just couldn't figure out why.
I've used glue stick on my bed, but it is completely unnecessary. It made no difference other than having a bigger mess to clean. I've never had adhesion issues, and will not use glue again unless I experience adhesion issues.
@SmallBatchFactrory - I find I achieve the worst print results using ABS filaments that were declared 'new and unopened' on eBay! 🤔 As I only print single items and in occasional low-volumes, I find keeping all my used reels in hermetically sealed plastic flight cases with silica dry bags, dramatically reduces moisture ingress and delays premature degradation, also negating the need to 'heat box' dry my reels as frequently when using them so sporadically, I also find cutting off the amount of ABS filament I require, also reduces exposing the remaining filament to unnecessary ambient moisture. 👍 This is my particular method of madness, I could be wrong. 😉
To be honest I almost never dry any filament at all. Apart from Nylon and Polycarbonate, which I keep in a sealed dry box even when printing. I have spools I opened years ago which still work great. The only ones showing a bit of moisture absorption are a few PETG rolls, but still totally usable if you don't need those last 10% of print quality. Granted I live in a 50% humidity area. Probably way different if you live in a very humid place.
I have been experimenting with ABS on my new Qidi X-Smart 3 printer, which is an enclosed corexy small-format machine. This video is of enormous help to me. FWIW, you have a new subscriber.
I like HIPS. I think it's underrated. I don't see much point in ABS to be honest for the trouble it causes. Their temperature endurance is really similar as is the cost and mechanical and chemical properties. HIPS prints come out pleasantly slightly matte. Yes i think a consistent amount of airflow is needed, so i run a slow PCF speed. Adhesives i've been happy with is Deli 7091 glue stick and self-made PVP solution, both work well. But then working with HIPS isn't nearly as demanding as with ABS as it doesn't exhibit excessive swell or shrinkage, so the experience needn't carry over.
I have a spool laying around that I didn't try yet. Maybe I should. What drew me to ABS was the low price in the past. And according to the Voron team it's the only material not suffering from significant deformation under pressure
@@SmallBatchFactory HIPS is probably not among the recommended materials because it hadn't been considered. I don't know why everyone treats HIPS as a joke, it prints well and holds together just fine.
The most prominent instance where people talk about HIPS is as support material since it can be dissolved in lemon acid (if that's the right translation). I really have to test out that spool I have here.
I have good experience not with slurry but with acetone with a little abs into it. Don't apply a layer, just moisten the surface. I Like the smell of acetone, and it is sometimes in your blood so it can't be all that harmful.
IDK why you insist on glue when PEI and a chamber above 40c is all you need. I run my bed at 100c and apply a brim for parts lacking surface contact other than that as long as the chamber doesn't drop below 50 after a couple hours it will always complete successfully. Another thing I will do if its a part that needs dimensional accuracy is leave the heated bed on and slowly ramp it down for a hour or so to eliminate warping due to rapid cooling.
My chambers don't get above 40c. A PEI sheet and 110c bed temperature wasn't enough for me in the past. I also rather use glue than remove a brim afterwards. If that all works for you then there's no need to change anything. With glue I get dimensional accuracy without a slow cool down.
1: Just scuff your pei with a scotch pad thoroughly, clean with dish soap, maintain with 90% or higher IPA - no need for glue stick 2: The higher the chamber temp (up to a point) the better. 50C-60C is great. At these chamber temps you can even run the part cooling fan at a low speed - 50% or below based on your part cooling setup. 3: Bed at 110C, Hotend anywhere from 240C to 270C (yes 270C). These are the only changes I make compared to printing PLA, and my parts come out absolutely perfect. Really the key is chamber temp. The lower the chamber temp, the more problems you'll have.
Of course higher chamber temps is better. With a Prusa mk3 for example, which is printed out of PETG and has the electronics firmly attached to it I wouldn't want to fry the whole machine. There are many people out there who can't run such high temperatures
Just yesterday I finally ordered Magigoo for Nylon so why not? I only have a cheap spool but it works. Nylon really is a bitch to print but you probably already noticed that. Could add Polycarbonate while I'm at it.
At least here in Germany that's not available. Heard about it in the past but the spray I tried wasn't good. Possibly some ingredients that are banned in Europe or something.
@@SmallBatchFactory it is shallac based.. if you can get some of it in some way, its super cheap and just works, cheers to you buddy, just thought you would like to hear!
My chambers don't go much above 40, doesn't matter how long I heat them (not even after 24h of printing on the Prusa). I'd have to add insulation and risk frying its board.
Another factor: the printer itself. The Prusa Mk3 and other printers with light weight beds just don’t print ABS very well. Printers that have a lot more thermal mass in their bed (like the Voron) print far better. I’ve burned a LOT of time trying to make the Mk3 print ABS well-enclosures, active enclosure heating, many variations on settings-and it will never do as good of a job as the Voron.
Didn't share the same experience. If I apply Magigoo it worked just as well on the Prusa (the photo of the full plate was from the Prusa, almost 24h print time). It was all about fan speed and bed adhessive for me.
@@SmallBatchFactory 100% agreed on good bed adhesive and light part cooling fan-I discovered both of those the hard way, too! And the Mk3 will print ABS acceptably. The Voron just prints it better, with fewer flaws and improved surface quality. My old LulzBot Taz with its heavy glass bed also printed ABS really well. I believe the thermal mass of the bed is a factor but I could be wrong; it could be as simple as the printer parts being made of ABS rather than PETG. I’m currently rebuilding one of my Mk3’s with ABS parts out of curiosity.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Get great results every time by following my free Design and Print Checklist: smallbatchfactory.com/design-and-print-checklist
Signed up to the "subscription" but never got the PDF email.
Have you checked the spam folder? According to my logs there was a signup a few minutes ago where the mail has been sent. I suspect that was you.
Got the email for the subscription and clicked the link in the email but nothing else came through.@@SmallBatchFactory
You can drop me an e-mail and I can send you the link manually again. Sorry for the inconvenience
Thank you for a great video. Currently I am at a point where I can print with ABS and get very good results. Here are the things on my list:
* CR-10S (30 x 30 x 40 cm build volume)
* Print on glass
* heat enclosure I made out of a large carton box (openings for control unit to be outside of it)
* Bed temperature 80 degrees C, nozzle 235.
* Printing speed between 60-30 mm/s, acceleration down to around 5-10 mm/s/s. I would think this ensures better bonding at corners, preventing layer seperation.
* Layer height around 0.12 mm, also experimenting with thicker layer heights.
* Something I picked up recently in another RUclips video, a cover at the bottom of the hot end enclosure to divert the air blowing over the hot end away from the object you are printing. Not sure if this is only limited to the Creality machines but it seems to be a game changer for me.
* Bed adhesion... A couple of years ago I found that applying spray on clear lacquer creates a very sticky layer on a glass surface, so much so that the ABS printed wonderfully but sometimes even ripping out chunks of glass after it cools down. More recently I read of a mixture (50/50) of white wood glue and powder sugar. Currently a combination of these substances provides great results for me. Basically I just need to reapply a diluted solution of sugar and glue to the glass, a bonus is that you do not need to expose yourself to dangerous fumes like acetone.
* Brim and mouse ears: a brim is usually mandatory when printing with ABS. I found that using mouse ears (about 20 mm diameter and 0.6 mm thick) works well for longish, rectangular objects.
LOL... "hiyaaaa!" How is your channel so new and yet you do all this so professionally sounding / looking?!?! Subscribed!!!
Fuiyooh, thanks! I did music mixing a decade ago. Plus I'm obsessed with knowledge and getting things right. Watched tutorials for hours on end and implemented their advice :-)
@@SmallBatchFactory ya, I figured you must 1) have experience, & 2) must have watched a lot of the masters. Everything from your lighting/background and expressive hand movements to your script and editing is really well done. Very telling that I don't have a print farm, but I still want a ton more videos from you. Keep it up and you'll be the next CNC Kitchen! ;)
No previous video experience, but I guess I'm a swift learner :-) one can dream!
Came here for ASA tips, stayed for the Unko.
I'm using cheap hairspray and it's does the job aswell. I like it because it's easy to apply on the buildplate (always far away from the printer to not cover the moving parts with sticky hairspray).
Never had much luck with hairspray. But I only tried what we had at home anyway.
Hairspray is very flammable so good luck
Thank you for sharing your experience with ABS printing with us. I'll just add some of mine own that has been quite successful: print the first layer with PETG. It sticks nicely to PEI and binds perfectly with ABS, making it nearly impossible to lift from the heatbed. Absolutely brilliant trick!
That sounds really intriguing! PETG is known for sticking almost too good. I'll have to try that out.
I was printing spools for filament, so a big disc, and was having no luck sticking until the end even with MagiGoo. But your PETG trick worked perfectly. Thanks!
That's a wonderful trick and worthy of a video! I Saw this trick for printing Nylon..without an Enclosure!
Just wanted to say thank you for this. Your video has ended a 1 year struggle with ABS! I don't understand why everything I read on printing ABS was quite so wrong. Read to print slow, never use the fan etc. I am not using any adhesion agent, but I am printing at a higher speed and using your tips on the slowdown and fan speeds and magic is happening, thank you so much!!
I'm glad I could help! It's been the same for me and I always wondered how some people were able to print ABS so flawlessly...
I always have warping when using any fan speed, even 10%. I’m guessing you don’t have issues with fan on? Everything prints great for me except small bridges, which is frustrating because I’m printing parts for a Voron Trident build, on a Bambu Lab machine 🫢
ABS works best with an enclosure and high enough temperatures inside. I usually have around 40c. The mentioned Magigoo adhesive prevents warping from the bed pretty good and made all the difference for me.
I love how simple the x1 carbon made abs. I just got some ASA and have never used it before.
Great video. The fact that you found that you needed part cooling on small parts was very enlightening. Keep up the good work. I’m subscribing now.
Thanks! We're taught at every corner that ABS and cooling is a no go that this was mind blowing to me as well.
I had the same issue. Part cooling on any sort of overhang was a must with 45c enclosure. Also fans to 100% for bridging made supports come off super easy. It also let me do crazy long unsupported bridging, almost as good quality as pla.
I’ve found chamber preheating to at least 40C improves my success in passive setups. Even with a chamber temperature sensor, I’ve yet to find a slicer setting that waits for the chamber to get to temperature before printing.
It think "wait for temperature" is a firmware specific command. If you run Klipper you could probably write a short macro that does that. You only need to either put it in your regular START_PRINT macro or run it only for specific material and therefore put it into the Slicer start GCODE
Thank you for your video! I have been trying to print test cubes with eSUN ABS+ and had trouble with warping and curling. I had the fan speed set to zero like the manufacturer recommended, but after watching your video I tried 5% regular fan speed / 30% max fan speed and it made the quality just as good as my PLA prints.
Glad I could help!
What are the bed and printing temperatures??
@@erolchelik 100°C bed, 240°C nozzle. Used a Ender 3 V3 SE and it will print a lot of things in ABS very well with these settings, however the cooling fan seems to sacrifice layer adhesion strength so some objects with more advanced geometry are tough to print. Tried printing a interior piece for a car and it took until the 5th time before it was able to print satisfactory quality all the way to 100%, but still had interlayer cracks and warping that had to be fixed afterwards. Test cubes were much easier.
@@xGSFxGoat thank you for the answer. It's pretty good for me too. But if I print something large then bed warping up. I didn't unaderstand why. I use ender 5 plus and magnetic build bed layer
@erolchelik ABS tends to warp a lot in general. The magnetic bed is probably a bit weak. On my Voron 0 I avoid printing things that cover the whole print bed (it's only 120x120) for that reason. My Prusa mk3 has extremely strong magnets so it's less of an issue. Id the print adheres strongly to the print bed the next logical step for it is to warp the whole bed.
"The print fell off the bed completely and got cought by the moving bed, somehow the printer managed to push the enclosure door open with the failed print and threw it on the groud to taunt me". :D You didn't forget your printers purchase aniversary by any chance?
Might be possible! That explains why the first print stuck and the second didn't anymore
This is my first time printing abs on k1max had zero issues print came out extremely beautiful no glue textured build plate with brim
That's cool. Brims also usually work but take more post processing to be removed
Hey. thanks for the tips. I print the Prusament ASA with the standard Prusament ASA Profile in my Lack enclosure on my MK3. I print it on the textured sheet without any adhesives. The only thing I found very important to have is a draft shield. Also try activating the brim and - since you won't need it for the part itself - move it away from the part and under the draft shield to hold it down in case it warps from drafts. works very well for me. Also I can strongly recommend Vision Miners Nano polymer adhesive as an all purpose adhesive. It is amazing.
In my case I apply glue to avoid wasting filament. Both aooroaches work of course. With Magigoo I didn't need any extra brim so there's also less post processing work. My colleague with no enclosure uses the draft shield with success even with no enclosure.
I've had really good adhesion using a sheet of PEI lightly sanded with fine grain sandpaper. No other adhesive needed. I run the bed temperature at 115 degrees and it helps with warping. 20% cooling with a single turbine fan. It's a modified Mega S that gets fairly close to a Prusa in quality. The only limitation is I'm using binder clips to hold the sheet down to the bed as a magnetic base will weaken at those temperatures and I don't want a glue mess when I inevitably replace the sheet.
That sounds really interesting! Do you have any long term experience? I'd expect that you need to sand the PEI regularly to keep it sticky.
The Prusa uses special magnets that don't weaken at those temperatures. But their heat bed cover does warp.
I've been using this setup for about three years now. I've replaced it a couple of times. Light sanding with an alcohol wipe for a smooth surface is good if you want a clean print face. Doing it a lot wears it out more quickly. I don't worry about that too much. Adhesion is almost too good. PETG will weld itself at any temperature. It IS easy to mar. I've managed a couple of Klipper head crashes (no end stops) driving the 250 degree nozzle into the bed and leaving a divot on one side. It doesn't go through so I just flip it over. If there's magnets available that have a curie temperature high enough you could get a PEI coated steel sheet. I'd be curious if there's any aftermarket equivalent available. I haven't seen anything. I was thinking an electromagnet failing all else. The clips will only hold it down around them and I have to mind the clearance with the print head on larger prints. For most of what I print it's great and minimal hassle. @@SmallBatchFactory
To me it sounds rather expensive if you have to replace the sheet once in a while. My glue bottle is still half full after all these years so the costs seem to be justified. PETG most definitely needs a thin separation layer of PVA, at least that's what I always used.
I've drilled a groove into my Vorons sheet as well. The endstop is still not reliable for me. The mesh works fine though. My Prusa has a permanent Benchy hologram from forgetting to switch the bed settings. Haven't tried anything above 110c since the thermal fuses I have installed would stop me.
If you use Magigoo or some other kind of adhesive (like Kores glue stick, etc), can you still easily remove the prints off of the bed once it cools down ? or do you need a PEI sheet ?
Magigoo in particular even releases the print when cooling down. So you usually won't have issues removing them. This can vary depending on your build plate material of course, I didn't try all of them.
Have you tried garolite G10 as a bed material with ASA/ABS?
Not yet. Only PEI, Glass and bare steel
Vision Miner Nano Polymer Adhesive is also amazing. It saved our butts on some ASA printing. While it is possible to get good enough bed adhesion on some part geometries without it, some absolutely need it. We even needed print bed clips to prevent the part shrinkage from curling up the magnetic sheet. Good hints in this video. Thx.
Thanks! Plus the costs really aren't that high for adhesive in the long run. The Prusa has very strong magnets, no issues there. With my tiny Voron I can't put too much on the plate at once, otherwise it will definitely lift the 120mm build plate.
I was going out of my mind with a large ASA print and out of desperation I bought some Magigoo. That plus adjusting my cooling settings made all the difference. I’ve found that Magigoo on a per print basis isn’t that expensive as one application lasts multiple prints except on the most difficult designs.
It definitely lasts a long time. I only ever bought one bottle which is still half full even after a few spools of ABS to build two Voron printers.
Sounds like you need a pei sheet. My Ender 3 is printing ABS and ASA like a champ in a tent enclosure on a cheap PEI sheet with no brim and no glue. 255 nozzle and 105 on the bed. Pre heat for a few minutes, then fire up the print. I've had a few warps on the edge of the bed when I didn't pre-heat, but otherwise, no significant warping.
I "have them all", meaning smooth and textured PEI. Possibly be differnt if I preheat a bit longer. Since energy is expensive here and I'm I impatient Magigoo does a wonderful job.
It's not always warping of course but when it does I have to start over so I rather just apply some glue.
@@SmallBatchFactoryyeah, can't argue with what works. I just found it annoying to apply the glue. I did notice with the smooth pei that I have to literally clean it before EVERY print. Also, 85 and even 95c were not enough to keep things stuck down.
I'm in Southern California, so I understand expensive power. I just put in solar, but haven't turned it on yet. Just printed some ASA brackets for the conduit running into the solar and end-caps for the rails the panels bolt to. Been wanting to build a large core XY, so maybe I'll be able to power it without feeling guilty LoL.
@huzbum I wipe with IPA, but it's not always enough for me.
A large CoreXY is very cool. I have a few problems with my Voron 2.4 though, I always have to adjust the first layer. Mesh leveling works great but the first layer distance is a bit hit and miss. Although the click switch is always spot on when calibrating it isn't anymore when printing. Might need to add a brush to clean the Nozzle before leveling.
@@SmallBatchFactory My current plan is to modify the design of "the 100" AWD remix to make the corner pieces and attach them inside a plywood/2x4 cube (with plexiglass doors.) Then use a Kobra Max 400x400 heated bed with 3 independent z-screws. Design wise, it's really going to be a frankenstein abomination. I basically just want it to be cheap, large, and reasonably fast.
Looking cool would be great, but you can't have it all. Maybe if I make it look like a video game military loot crate that would be cool in its own way.
I love the loot crate idea! If we're honest many open frame printer don't look pretty as well. My Prusa mk3 for example, the wooden encloruse I added isn't exactly a masterpiece either but it gets the job done. Form follows function I'd say
Magigoo on the glass bed in my old DaVinci made all the difference. On my 2.4 with pei, i haven't really had an issue with warping off the bed.
I have a glass bed of my CR-10 where the print ripped out pieces so it might even be too much. While PEI is nice my ABS prints still need some convincing to stick perfectly.
@@SmallBatchFactory I've not had it tear out the glass. Usually if I wait for it to cool completely down it just slides off. If I have my offset a little too close it will be a bit harder.
The impatience was the problem for me. It's all documented in the video linked at the end
Hey there! Hope you've been well. I was wondering if you could answer a question for me concerning ABS.
So I recently got a bambulabs A1 printer. Apparently it meets all the requirements for printing ABS as well as other engineering grade materials. However the printer is not enclosed it's an open frame bed slender.
I did purchase a tent like enclosure, more so to maintain a consistent temperature in my workspace and to keep pet hair away from the printer.
However I'm curious If this printer should be fine printing ABS parts. So one of the concerns brought up on Reddit is related to heat and temperature that might be generated if you enclose the printer. I think the concern revolved around stepper motors as well as the motherboard.
However there seems to be a bit of a debate on if the printer could generate enough heat while enclosed to even damage the components.
The manufacturer doesn't recommend an enclosure, but again there's debate as to why this is the case. Some argue that it is because of potentially damaging components, others say it's more to do with product differentiation and getting people to buy more expensive printers.
I'm curious to what your thoughts on this might be? Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated.
My other question is regarding the fumes generated by ABS and certain filaments. There is a device some use called a bentobox that uses charcoal, HEPA filter and some fans to process the air within an enclosure.
I was wondering if you have any thoughts on the effectiveness utility of something like this.
Obviously it would still be used in conjunction with having a window open and not being in a completely enclosed space. But I'm curious if such a device is even worthwhile. Again any and all feedback is much appreciated.
Thank you kindly, much love and gratitude.
P.s. pardon any typos as I was using speech to text while walking to write this.
Hey Whyired, nice to read you again!
The biggest issue with enclosures is having the power supply inside. It's giving up quite a bit of heat and will get pretty warm inside. Having it inside an enclosure regularly will wear it out quickly, occasionally for a few hours should be OK. I don't know where the A1 has its supply, I guess below the print bed. So one thing you might be able to do is put it in a table with an opening in the bottom for fresh air to the power supply. Best scenario would be having the PSU outside, rewiring the printer. That's what I did with my Prusa.
For the steppers the heat is no issue. The controller board should be able to take the heat as well. Heat always shortens the life span of components, but usually not in a meaningful way. Think of how hot a PC or Laptop gets inside the case while still running perfectly fine.
A charcoal filter definitely helps filtering a lot of nasty fumes. They're actually mostly particles, not gases, and can be filtered pretty good. I built one for soldering for example and it makes a huge difference. Just don't forget that you have to replace the filter material pretty regularly.
I have yet to build a filter for my Voron 0.2. It's already accumulated a film on the panels from printing ABS which a filter would definitely help avoiding.
Had lifting issues with Nylon. I used "Super Glue" and glued the Brim down with it. Solved all the problems cheaply. I dont know yet how it will work with ABS.
If the bed is Magnetic. Magnets on the brim .
Were you able to remove it without damaging the print bed?
@@SmallBatchFactory Yeh it scraped off pretty good.Given its age ,i figured i might as well try it . if i wipe it out ,id buy a new one. I needed the gears bigtime . . I cant recall what kind of bed i got. Got it a few yrs ago. all i can say its white lol.
I have a glas bed and use normal PVA glue as a slurry, that I thinly spread out with a spatula while the bed is heating evaporating the water.
I even reuse the coat multiple times by just spraying the bed with water when it's between 40-50°C.
It works well most of the times, ABS is just notorious.
The most satisfying part for me is when everything is dialed in and the part auto releases from the bed when it's cooled down.
That's what I usually do for PLA and PETG, even on PEI. Except for the spatula, I use a wide foam brush. With ABS this was hit or miss for me. The first of the two shown red parts stuck with this, but the second didn't anymore. I assume my glue laser was too thick rather than too thin. I'm almost never patient enough to wait for the bed to cool down though. I use my wife's aquarium as a cooler (only press it on the glass, no water involved)
@@SmallBatchFactory I also think not all PVA glues are equal.
Each manufacturer has his own unique blend.
So if you found something that works, stick to it.
I have actually never had a problem with bed adhesion on textrued PEI. It holds super well, removes itself when cooled down and leaves a sweet texture on the bottom.
Consider yourself lucky. For some reasons I always needed at least a bit of glue. Even for PETG on a Prusa PEI bed, textured and smooth.
i am having problems with my nozzel stopping up while printing ABS any ideas to help me. i have run a temp tower, retraction test, flow rate test all seem ok but the nozzel keeps stopping up not sure why
That can be many things.
Does it always happen after a certain time and the filament has become thicker at the tip: that's heat creep, can be amplified by high retraction values and chamber temperatures.
Are you running the filament on the hot side: Residue build up.
Does the clogg persistent and you can see something other than filament stuck in the Nozzle: Bad filament quality with unwanted particles.
Stripped filament at the extruder gear so pushing becomes impossible: you're going too fast for your hotend to keep up.
The list goes on of course.
How would you print thin walled (2-4 walls) ABS parts?
I got 65°C chamber temp and using the fan at 20-30% makes this part weak for the layer adhesion.
Only 0% fan makes these parts strong, but messes up all overhangs :(
You can always opt to print it slower and only use the fan for the overhangs.
How on earth do you get 65c chamber temp? I'm building a insulated printer with extra 80c heaters and it currently reaches 60c max.
@@SmallBatchFactory
i got a 600x400x300mm printer with a 1000W heated bed. The bed is at 100°C to get a 65°C chamber temp.
I red something today that i should crank up the outer wall thickness to 0.7mm on a 0.4 nozzle to get the extra squish for thin walls with overhangs. I also will try a 60% aligned reclinear infill today for that part.
@TheWuzyy printing the wall in one 0.7mm perimeter will definitely improve adhesion. It's just not as pretty. You can also increase flow a bit, if that doesn't result in overextrusion
@@SmallBatchFactory
after the first ABS print with 0,7mm layer width on a 0,4mm nozzle and 0.15mm layer height (260°C nozzle / 105°C Bed / 60-65°C chamber / Speed ~ 50mm/s / Infill: 60% aligned rectliniear) the small part came out with very clean overhangs, fine details and a perfect layer adhesion on the thin walls.
With Arachne perimeters, the layer lines were on some spots even over 0.9mm wide without a problem for the CHT-nozzle.
It seams ABS really loves to get squished for the best performance... and it loves hot moving air.
@TheWuzyy definitely! You can go totally overboard with squishing. 200% of the Nozzle width usually works fine, even up to 300 is manageable.
We printed face shields when the pandemic started and I optimized my GCODE with wider layers to save 70% print time.
When changing the nozzle, I didn't connect the fan cable properly and been printing without cooling for the last month. Not a problem for PLA, but ASA came out as goopy mess. No wonder I had so much trouble printing small ASA parts 🤦♂
It's interesting how it wasn't a problem for PLA though. Must've printed something large, PLA usually profits from a lot of cooling.
Would it be beneficial if I print ABS outside in my backyard as I don't have a garage and don't want to print in my house???
If it's warm that OK. If it's cold it's probably not so beneficial
If I run my cooling fan over 50% it doesn't fuse the layers correctly with ABS but if I turn it down too much I'm getting more upward curling on these corners that have a significant overhang. I can see the part actually moving because the previous layers are still liquid 🤔.
I think I need to reduce layer time even more since it is a super small part. I have it at 120 second layer time right now and that gave me the best part but there is still some up curling.
Even as little as 10% fan speed can make a big difference. You can always increase layer time but the issue is you get material oozing out and risk heat creep (but with ABS it's not a big deal).
So far, I have not had any issues with bed adhesion, nothing but PEI steel, but cooling needed some tweaking (eSUN ABS+, 250C/105C, about 40-45C chamber temp, E3V2, klipper, Dragon HF, Sherpa Mini, 2x5015 12V fans at 24V, Manta MK2 ducts, dual Z, Mag PEI, Comgrow tent enclosure)
What your cooling setting sir?
For a glass bed. All i have done for a long long time is put a little acetone on the glass and use a failed print and slide it over the acetone and over the area the print will be. I cannot remember the last time i had an abs print come loose.
That's basically the concept of ABS slurry. Works perfectly well if you're willing to work with acetone
It is the same concept. Except without needing to create and store a slurry. Its fast and a cleaner process.
@Bobby11 that's true. Haven't been using acetone in 3D printing for years. PEI sheets don't particularly like it
I loved the Uncle Roger impression, big LOL.
Fuiyoh! It's also a greeting to my co-workers from our Malaysian branch
i don't really think about printing abs but i found this really interessting
Thanks! Maybe some day you'll have to, like when you're building a Voron :-)
then il watch this video again keep making such videos becaus you do it really good@@SmallBatchFactory
I'm glad you like it, really nice to hear!
I use spray adhesive to coat the bed plate first, it’s cheap, easy to apply and works every time on ABS.
What type of spray adhesive?
@@ripmax333 Selleys Kwik Grip Contact adhesive
Great tips! I can also recommend breaking the straight lines with... spheres. So spherical negative volume indentations. They are pleasant to the eye and break the tension quite a lot.
Yes, slicer modifications are very powerful. Talked about that a bit in another video
I just use a textured PEI plate with my P1S. Sticks a little too well!
The chamber might help a good bit. Depends on how well it's insulated.
@@SmallBatchFactory I very simply use metallised bubble wrap, upcycled from food delivery packaging! Just one layer on the left and right sides of the printer. I also preheat to 50-60c prior to printing. Pretty easy to reach with the Aussie summer!
That's probably the biggest difference. I peak at 40c with around 23c room temperature. A bit of isolation would go a long way surely but I already grilled my Prusa mk3 board once in the past.
I got a brain fart stuck in my head regarding a Voron 0.2 with aluminum parts and chamber heating, featuring a water cooled hotend... Maybe some day
Never had an issue printing on a glass bed with and without hairspray once I dialed im a few other factors. Key is chamber temperature above 35C, bed temp of 100C, print a bit slower, zero or very little cooling, and increase the flow on the bottom layer so it really squishes that bottom layer into the bed.
I think fan cooling can cause additional issues. A better approach I've found is to set the minimum layer cooling time in the slicer. This slows the print to allow the layer below to cool sufficiently.
In my humble beginnings I had the experience that printing slower just resulted in more time for the print to warp for some reason. We printed a lot of faceshields in 2020 and the faster I printed the less I had warping issues. I didn't use Magigoo back then. That was the only occasion where I printed so many of one model that I could really adjust the settings.
If you have time to spare you can of course just slow down the print instead of fan cooling. With the full plate I showed in the video I needed no cooling at all since every layer took long enough.
I think it depends on what kind of printer you have. A bed slinger moves the print back and forth which is basically like having light cooling. That was my situation, where I saw contraction on corners near the doors until I got chamber temp up high enough and slowed down the print to reduce the cooling effect.
I always suspected bed movement to contribute to the unwanted cooling. A colleague uses the "curtain" that Prusa Slicer can create around the print with good success. It basically confirms the theory
Another adhesive option that works really well is dissolving filament in acetone to make a 10-20% solution, then applying with a spray bottle. You get the acetone stink, but it's very quick and convenient to apply. Just spritz with the spray bottle where needed. With black or colored filament, it's easy to see if you have the build plate coated sufficiently and what areas need touch-up.
That works as well. Just don't use it on PEI, it doesn't like acetone.
@SmallBatchFactory I have a magnetic steel plate. It came with a PEI coating, but I flip the plate over so the PEI side is on the bottom when printing ASA.
I think I got something similar to magigoo but on a budget. Mix water and regular white glue in ~7:1 ratio, it works great and cleans easy.
I use that for PLA and PETG. It's much weaker than Magigoo though. For comparison, with Magigoo a warping print will bend the magnetic build plate against the magnets force instead of releasing the print
@@SmallBatchFactory wow that's a lot of force. I'll keep that in mind, can't wait to switch to ABS, I built the enclosure and getting myself mentally prepared for the trouble it comes with :D
@LukaMilosevic-c7f if you follow the tips in the video it's actually not that hard :-)
It also highly depends on the model though. There were parts of the Voron ERCF I couldn't get to print since the surface are on the bed was too small (it would later be bridged to the rest of the part but it got knocked over every time).
Good luck!
@@SmallBatchFactory That happened to me few times. I'm getting the hang of it after ~1kg of my first spool of PLA. Got few really nice functional prints with real world applications as well as few great looking painted small miniatures. Thank you for all the tips!
Miniatures are fine too. One of my very first prints was DOOM guy with a 0.2mm Nozzle. Turned out extremely well and with the tiny Nozzle the support material was super easy to remove.
Thank you for watching! Maybe someday you'll even build a Gatoino :-)
try printing on the smooth side of your build plate, put your first layer width to about 130%. I have never needed to use glue and I always print on the smooth side of the build plate and infact it holds better than the textured side
I've also noticed a bit of increased adhesion on smooth surfaces, but for me it was never enough. I don't want to elephant foot on the first layer and I like the texture. Besides Magigoo really goes a long way, still have my first bottle ever half full.
@@SmallBatchFactory if you tune up your slicer correctly, an increase in first layer width doesn’t necessarily mean elephants foot. It just means that the first layer line is wider and promotes better adhesion to the bed.
So you're referring to the extrusion width I guess.
@@SmallBatchFactory correct, I’m not overflowing just making the bottom layer 130% wider than the extruder nozzle pushes the filament down onto the bed with much more force causing it to adhere much better. The slicer accounts for the extra width and I end up with a perfect first layer. No glue needed
Meanwhile me: since 2019, I printed my abs prints with ender 3 pro which covered with xl trashbag in balcony. Even winter times in Ankara/Turkey. I was using glass bed, after the pei sheet boom CLEAN pei is my favorite.
Thanks for the nice video! Did you build your enclosure yourself? I'm also looking to build and enclosure by my self, but I am generally very untalented in woodworking or even something else ^^
Thank you for watching :-) the enclosure is my own design, yes. Made some last minute changes to fit in the Prusa MMU while building.
If your printer is small enough you can just build the shown LACK enclosure from IKEA tables. Otherwise you can build one out of aluminum profiles. Putting them together is a bit like Lego. You can order them cut to size. You just need to add acrylic glass. There are probably plans and calculators floating around the web.
@@SmallBatchFactory Okey thanks for the tip with the aluminum profiles, they seem to be very sturdy and easy to install and get an enclosure out of it. :-)
@EliasX962 they definitely are. Voron printers are built with them and already integrate the enclosure for example. Depending on your region it might even be cheaper to buy a enclosed printer than sourcing profiles.
I would love to see more abs/asa tests. Like temotowers in different configs and stuff just to demonstrate these things.
Issue with temp towers is they don't represent real world printing. Since they're small they printer needs to slow down. Back when printers were generally slow this worked fine IMO but with today's high speed printers it already makes a big difference how large the model is, meaning print time per layer.
I just got my first bottle of magigoo two weeks ago and I can’t believe how much I was screwing myself by using glue stick… lesson learned for sure.
That's pretty much how I felt when I used the test sample after being hesitant for so long. Recently took advantage of a sale and ordered 4 bottles (2 regular, 1 PC and 1 nylon)
@@SmallBatchFactory have you tried the Nylon one yet? I ordered that too but haven’t tried it yet… I only use nylon for a couple things here and there.
Not yet. Like you I only use it very occasionally. I also have a very cheap Nylon that's especially nasty.
@@SmallBatchFactory me too… I have a 5 year old spool of ESun natural nylon and it has never been easy or fun to print with. But when it does manage to print well. It is pretty good material…
Sounds a bit like mine. I got it from "Your Droid" which is just a white label brand. I need to print it 25c over the recommended temperature to get layer adhesion. But then it's really strong, didn't manage to break off the nubs of the gear I made with it by hand.
Cool beat at the end!
Thanks! That's "Ticklish" from the RUclips music library if you want to listen to the full song.
Magigoo, yes. But I still get warping if I cool the print down too quickly. I've had some success letting it cool gradually at 5 degrees per 5 minutes but the edges still curve up a little on the larger prints. I think my next bet is to just let it sit on the plate, covered with a filament box to make a mini oven, and let it heat soak on a 100 degree build plate for an hour to relieve the internal stresses.
Are you talking about rather flat prints? For what I usually print the parts are over 5cm high. I get a hot bottom, cool middle part (~40c) and a hot top when the print finishes. Means the middle is already cold enough to not warp anymore. If the print is only a few millimeters high I'd expect the result you mentioned.
@@SmallBatchFactory Nope, it was tall. I was printing the feet for a Voron 0.2 with Mouse Ears, but no Magigoo, and the corners lifted when I let it cool naturally (bed heater off immediately) instead of letting it cool slowly over an hour (-5 degrees every 5 minutes).
@tasa4904 that's interesting, how much glue did you apply? I literally popped my Voron parts off the minute it stopped printing to immediately start the next print. Didn't have any Warping that occurred after the print finished. Might also have to do with the material used but it was just cheap regular ABS, nothing special.
@@SmallBatchFactory If anything, I had the heater bed running at 110 degrees to make the part stick without glue (bed top is about 10 - 15 degree cooler than stated temperature). Pumping that much heat below while the upper part cooled to about 40 to 50 degrees ambient temperature might have done something.
Although I would expect the warp to go in reverse / create layer separation since a layer is supposed to contract on cooling, not expand...
The only reason why I know that it warped on print completion is because the mouse ears were firmly stuck to the bed right up until the very end. Then I walked away and let the print cool, and came back to find the mouse ears had detached and were in the air.
Thinking about it further, I think the reason why it warped upwards is because the heat transmitted from the bottom of the print flowed to the middle layers.
And then the bottom of the print cooled down quickly because the build plate is thermally conductive and equalizes quickly with the ambient air once it isn't actively heated.
With a hot middle layer and a cooler bottom layer, upward warp.
Next experiment then is to use Magigoo with a bed temperature set to 80.
Printing ABS for 10 years, and never used adhesives. I print on 1.5mm G10/FR4 board at 100 or 105 degrees C. Make sure to never touch it with your hands which will leave grease behind which harms the adhesion . The parts self release when the plate is cooling down. I do make use of printing a brim or mickey mouse ears to corners (slicer option)
Those boards work but they aren't magnetic. On magnetic beds you have to fix them another way.
@@SmallBatchFactory True, if you really want a magnetic build plate.. But I don't get the hype of those. Why is that so important? Do you switch build plates so often? (and if so, why?) My plate can be changed easily too, albeit not in 5 seconds but under a minute.
@winandd8649 it's not necessarily about wanting them, but many printers come with those plates today so you need to figure out another way of fixing the plate. My CR-10 uses those clamps that always stick a bit into the print area for example, so you need to be careful where to place them
@@SmallBatchFactory Okay, it came with the printer, so everyone is forced to use adhesives now.. I never bought an of the shelf printer, I've always built my own, so that's why I don't have these magnetic sheets luckily 😄
@winandd8649 they have their advantages too. I haven't seen many people print with FR4 boards but that's no reason not to use it. Many people don't like to tinker with their machine so that's a bit of an obstacle for many
Hätte den Akzent fast nicht bemerkt! Der Orca Slicer hat mit Mausohren bereits so ein Feature für alle Ecken, damit du weniger Warping hast :)
Ich geb mir mühe ;-) kann SuperSlicer das auch? Bin mit der Oberfläche von Orca einfach nicht warm geworden bisher...
Einfach weiter benutzen.
Ich hatte am Anfang auch meine Schwierigkeiten, aber jetzt ist es super
Muss mir vielleicht auch mal ein Video dazu ansehen. Kann mir nur gerade nicht vorstellen, dass es meinen Workflow verbessert. Kann aber natürlich auch eifnach die Gewohnheit sein.
Great topic, thanks 👍
The major fix to me was to heat the enclosure at 40°, and bed at 110, vent at 15%. I did a temperature tower, perfect from 230 to 270 lol.and when finish i wait 20 mn to let everything cool down. No sticker, no brim.
In my case the parts usually already warp while printing. When it's done I sometimes even cool them down on a piece of stone if I'm impatient. The large print I showed in the video actually sticked perfectly for the first print but the second one always failed without glue. I just couldn't figure out why.
I've used glue stick on my bed, but it is completely unnecessary. It made no difference other than having a bigger mess to clean. I've never had adhesion issues, and will not use glue again unless I experience adhesion issues.
If that works for you that's cool. I only use it for ABS, since that stuff never stuck well for me.
Vision Miner “nano polymer adhesive” works well, too. It applies really thin and doesn’t build up like glue stick does. Works great with ABS/ASA.
There are probably quite a few really good. adhesives these days. Only ever tried Magigoo though.
@SmallBatchFactrory - I find I achieve the worst print results using ABS filaments that were declared 'new and unopened' on eBay! 🤔
As I only print single items and in occasional low-volumes, I find keeping all my used reels in hermetically sealed plastic flight cases with silica dry bags, dramatically reduces moisture ingress and delays premature degradation, also negating the need to 'heat box' dry my reels as frequently when using them so sporadically, I also find cutting off the amount of ABS filament I require, also reduces exposing the remaining filament to unnecessary ambient moisture. 👍
This is my particular method of madness, I could be wrong. 😉
To be honest I almost never dry any filament at all. Apart from Nylon and Polycarbonate, which I keep in a sealed dry box even when printing. I have spools I opened years ago which still work great. The only ones showing a bit of moisture absorption are a few PETG rolls, but still totally usable if you don't need those last 10% of print quality.
Granted I live in a 50% humidity area. Probably way different if you live in a very humid place.
I have been experimenting with ABS on my new Qidi X-Smart 3 printer, which is an enclosed corexy small-format machine. This video is of enormous help to me. FWIW, you have a new subscriber.
I'm glad you liked it! My Voron 0.2 is probably pretty similar
I like HIPS. I think it's underrated. I don't see much point in ABS to be honest for the trouble it causes. Their temperature endurance is really similar as is the cost and mechanical and chemical properties. HIPS prints come out pleasantly slightly matte.
Yes i think a consistent amount of airflow is needed, so i run a slow PCF speed.
Adhesives i've been happy with is Deli 7091 glue stick and self-made PVP solution, both work well. But then working with HIPS isn't nearly as demanding as with ABS as it doesn't exhibit excessive swell or shrinkage, so the experience needn't carry over.
I have a spool laying around that I didn't try yet. Maybe I should. What drew me to ABS was the low price in the past. And according to the Voron team it's the only material not suffering from significant deformation under pressure
@@SmallBatchFactory HIPS is probably not among the recommended materials because it hadn't been considered. I don't know why everyone treats HIPS as a joke, it prints well and holds together just fine.
The most prominent instance where people talk about HIPS is as support material since it can be dissolved in lemon acid (if that's the right translation). I really have to test out that spool I have here.
Ha! Love the reenactment!
Thanks! It turned out to be way easier to reproduce than I expected 😅
I put a platic bag over my Cobra2 and got 35°C
Probably a good start. It's way more important that you don't have cooler air moving inside than having it really hot
I have good experience not with slurry but with acetone with a little abs into it. Don't apply a layer, just moisten the surface. I Like the smell of acetone, and it is sometimes in your blood so it can't be all that harmful.
Mine was probably way too thick. I try to avoid the smell, it makes me light headed.
Just get Capton sheets 6.3x6.3 and apply to your build plate and forget about magic glue and other stuff it works with abs petg and pla.
But they don't have the nice texture of a powder coated PEI
IDK why you insist on glue when PEI and a chamber above 40c is all you need. I run my bed at 100c and apply a brim for parts lacking surface contact other than that as long as the chamber doesn't drop below 50 after a couple hours it will always complete successfully. Another thing I will do if its a part that needs dimensional accuracy is leave the heated bed on and slowly ramp it down for a hour or so to eliminate warping due to rapid cooling.
My chambers don't get above 40c. A PEI sheet and 110c bed temperature wasn't enough for me in the past. I also rather use glue than remove a brim afterwards. If that all works for you then there's no need to change anything. With glue I get dimensional accuracy without a slow cool down.
IDK why you think your way is the only way
A brim and a satin finish bed (Prusa mk4) also helps a lot
It does. Only downside is you need to remove the brim afterwards while glue doesn't need any post processing
@@SmallBatchFactoryIf your chamber isn't above 40c, that is the problem. Fix your chamber.
1:34 Bro channeled his inner Uncle Roger
Did you manage to catch your train after you finished the video?
The train with the people who care?
hair spray actually works REALLY well for bed ahesion. Sadly instead of bed seperation I got seperation from the raft lol
I never understood why I would want to use a raft. It just seems so inconvenient
that haayaa was already enough for the like :D
Fuiyooooo, thanks!
@@SmallBatchFactory uncle small batch :D
Uncle Roger would give you uncle status for this information thanks
I'm glad I could help a niece or nephew out
1: Just scuff your pei with a scotch pad thoroughly, clean with dish soap, maintain with 90% or higher IPA - no need for glue stick
2: The higher the chamber temp (up to a point) the better. 50C-60C is great. At these chamber temps you can even run the part cooling fan at a low speed - 50% or below based on your part cooling setup.
3: Bed at 110C, Hotend anywhere from 240C to 270C (yes 270C).
These are the only changes I make compared to printing PLA, and my parts come out absolutely perfect. Really the key is chamber temp. The lower the chamber temp, the more problems you'll have.
Of course higher chamber temps is better. With a Prusa mk3 for example, which is printed out of PETG and has the electronics firmly attached to it I wouldn't want to fry the whole machine. There are many people out there who can't run such high temperatures
Nice movie , informative. Next time, do one about nylon. :)
Just yesterday I finally ordered Magigoo for Nylon so why not? I only have a cheap spool but it works. Nylon really is a bitch to print but you probably already noticed that. Could add Polycarbonate while I'm at it.
Nice shoutout to Uncle Roger.
Fuiyooh! Plus we had colleagues from Malaysia visiting last week so it's also a shout out to them :-)
"don't burn your house down hayaa" 😭😭😭
Auquanet hairspray is always good
At least here in Germany that's not available. Heard about it in the past but the spray I tried wasn't good. Possibly some ingredients that are banned in Europe or something.
@@SmallBatchFactory it is shallac based.. if you can get some of it in some way, its super cheap and just works, cheers to you buddy, just thought you would like to hear!
Uncle Roger approved!
Fuiyooooh!
That slurry is too thick, it should be much more liquid.
You're right! Haven't used it in years so a lot of the acetone has evaporated. It used to be pretty thin. I switched to using Magigoo.
@@SmallBatchFactory or simply enclose... even poor enclosures are usually good enough for normal-sized parts. 15 cm or larger require a chamber.
There are so many variables involved I'm not taking chances anymore. All my printers are enclosed yet still that's no guarantee it will stick.
haiya 😂😂😂😂
Heat soak camber to 50c, nothing more is needed.
My chambers don't go much above 40, doesn't matter how long I heat them (not even after 24h of printing on the Prusa). I'd have to add insulation and risk frying its board.
watch too much uncle Roger
Definitely!
3dlac works better and cheaper
Haven't tried that. I guess there's no improvement to "sticks without problems" except for the price.
Another factor: the printer itself. The Prusa Mk3 and other printers with light weight beds just don’t print ABS very well. Printers that have a lot more thermal mass in their bed (like the Voron) print far better. I’ve burned a LOT of time trying to make the Mk3 print ABS well-enclosures, active enclosure heating, many variations on settings-and it will never do as good of a job as the Voron.
Didn't share the same experience. If I apply Magigoo it worked just as well on the Prusa (the photo of the full plate was from the Prusa, almost 24h print time). It was all about fan speed and bed adhessive for me.
@@SmallBatchFactory 100% agreed on good bed adhesive and light part cooling fan-I discovered both of those the hard way, too! And the Mk3 will print ABS acceptably. The Voron just prints it better, with fewer flaws and improved surface quality. My old LulzBot Taz with its heavy glass bed also printed ABS really well. I believe the thermal mass of the bed is a factor but I could be wrong; it could be as simple as the printer parts being made of ABS rather than PETG. I’m currently rebuilding one of my Mk3’s with ABS parts out of curiosity.