Why High-Pass Filters Are Ruining Your Mix
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- Опубликовано: 16 сен 2023
- Mixing with sharp/steep high-pass filters could be ruining the phase of your kick and bass instruments. Here's an explanation of EQ phase shift when high-passing kicks and basslines, and how to avoid or minimise phase issues.
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Phase shift in filters - nice, I haven’t heard this mentioned in decades and had forgotten all about it, thank you!
Linear phase EQ’s wont have such a dramatic effect either, but definitely avoid using extreme sharp cuts. Ive rarely used anything harsher than 24db and never that much on low end. 6-12db combined with low shelf will do everything you need, just takes a bit more “ears” and less “eyes” when mixing.
Yup.
Linear phase eqs will lead to pre-ringing which is def worse on a kick than minornphase shift imo
@@mntmntmnt phase shifting isnt really the issue as thats correctable and for most dance music, you want to align kick and bass phase anyways, its more the resonance spikes that standard eq’s create. But yes, i would also generally not use linear phase as standard go-to EQ. But if you need drastic cuts, it will work better than a normal EQ.
I notice a slight decrease in punch when I use linear phase eqs on transient material. Anyone else?
@@Seriouspupyes. that is the trade off. more dlatency, pre-ringing, and less punch because of the prering
I’ve gained more useful knowledge from this dudes 60 second clips than anyone else on RUclips
why do you think everyone else gained less from this dude's 60sec clips? :o
I admit, I like my steep cuts or passes, but I usually check if there’s something wrong afterwards or unpleasant, and if it doesn’t and it sounds good, I’m good too ✌️ anyway, thanks for the vid, I’m trying the shelf method 👌
Thanks for this video! I was using ableton eq8 and I always choose 4x cut! Never thought that it’ll ruin my mix
I've been having this issue ever since I've started making music, i do a cut and the volume increases. When I use linear phase it loses energy. Thanks this made a big difference thanks 🙏🏽👍🏽
Ive recently started low shelfing my bass instead of high passing and it keeps it warm but also gets out the way of the kick
Adding HPF also changes tightness. Ive learned from using pultecs that if you want a tighter kick cut at 80, a bassier kick cut at 50. Cant go wrong
Def has a pretty obvious effect! 👍
Thank you for answering my confusion 🙏🏻
I'll take care of that phase for punch 👊
What oscilloscope are you using to monitor the kick waveform after eq has been applied?
@@jonathanbobo722Smart Electronics ( Free )
@@jonathanbobo722And Wavecandy if FL user
Thanks for sharing this. This channel really is about mixing ENGINEERING. Waiting for more!
I prefer to go for low or high shelves instead of filters, for this reason.
The problem with this is that you're still leaving frequencies that you can't ear but they're could still be there and mudding up the mix. I would still prefer to use a filter, with a gentle slope, but that's a me preference
I kinda do both
I first do low and high shelves, then an extra high-pass (or low pass in some cases) so I make sure the small parts (of which the phase shift is normal insignificant at that point) are removed!
Linear phase filter fixes this
@@muzy8768 linear phase EQ causes pre-ringing, which can be very audible and sometimes alter the signal (especially with strong transient materials). I prefer natural phase EQ.
@@muzy8768 true
there's many ways to do convolution (in this case, being for EQ purposes), where the impulse does not need to be in much of a specific phasing, while linear phase ones usually preserve phase, but may cause more latency in high dB per octave cuts
Thank you sir! I got some mistakes to fix RIGHT now.
Wow that's crazy I had no idea that was a thing. I wonder if for kicks you could still use a hard highpass but apply a subtle fade in to the kick
So true, I will never understand why people willingly make their mixes sound thin by removing all the low end from the parts that actually need it(the kick and bass)
Thank you!!! I've been saying this for ages.....
Forget it and just turn on linear phase😅
@@muzy8768not a solution, see the many other replies
Interesting. I’m definitely going to trying this. Thank you.
Didn't know that! And I thought it's a good idea to aggressively cut out unwanted frequencies... have been doing it for years. Not anymore. Much obliged.
Yeah I see this too often as well, people on about removing "mud" to make headroom on kicks and even their sub making the cut literally below 20hz 😂 when all they are doin is just shifting the phase of their low end. As long as you have a a good kick sample and nice smooth phase alignment between the kick and sub using a sidechain duck, then you don't need to worry about cutting out low end with a high pass. Just use an oscilloscope and line them up👌
Had no idea, great to know. Thx!
Could you do or link me to a explanation of the phase shift's effects? I've never understood how phase shift functions and why it can be a negative thing.
Could you not just Google it for a proper explanation? Or read a book on mixing? Why do you need this guy to make an in depth video just for you?
@@BenHall289 I have done those; I intended to simply suggest a content idea for him. He isn't obligated to do it.
@@raesoup7 Fair enough.
@@BenHall289
Why should he make a video about anything of if you can just look it up yourself. Why are you even watching this video? Go read a book about it.
@@ElectricAlien577why are you even here on this video as well then?? Go read a book or practice your production instead of spreading hate. This is why your mixes are probably garbage.
I don’t usually use subtraction eqing on kicks, unless I’m trying to cut out some high end from the kick. Most of the time if a kick is getting me the sound I want I look for a different kick sample.
Regardless of shape, slope or aggressiveness, HP filtering a signal will change the time based waveform by definition. This, can indeed increase peak levels, in my experience of up to even 12dB! No linear or low phase shift EQ will help you there.
I agree I use shelves a lot and also rarely cut steep.
Low shelf is such a game changer. I hardly ever use high pass filters anymore unless it’s on things with no bass whatsoever.
so this explained why my EQ was adding extra gain, found that out pretty recently (I have abletons EQ defaulted with a 25hz low cut)
Finally some agrees that low shelf’s are better than hpf
Well, a 12 or 24 hpf has its advantages over shelves and doesn't introduce too much phasing issues. But yea all these 4x filters in use everywhere are hindering sound quality
@@JohnJohnCrushera min phase hp filter definitionally has a 180deg phase shift around the corner frequency, as he said this is how they actually work
I ALWAYS WONDERED WHY IT BOOSTED THE PEAK. THANJNYOU!!!!
That's why you need eliptical filters. They work a lot better on low end. 😛 Amazing stuff always Cableguys
if you mix your kick and bass together to phase align them, I would use a low shelf on the group as well instead of on the individual channels. Unless ofc you compensate for the shift after applying EQ cuts.
For kicks I usually use a soft clipper and same for 808s and snares
high shelf filters so underrated i wish i could teach a lesson
If it makes it sound shit then it is wrong, however if it makes it sound good then it is correct. It is as simple as that.
That does not help people who are learning how to mix. This isn't a personal attack on you but I'm sick and tired of people repeating this. Yes, sound good is good, sound bad is bad. We know. The point of videos like this is learning HOW to make it sound good. You need a lot of knowledge and experience to be able to just "make it sound good" when it comes to modern production. Early producers' ears aren't as well trained as those with more experience, and not is their technical knowledge.
@@xkinsey3831 like you said, it comes from experience. So what I think sounds good today will probably sound shit tomorrow due to getting better over time and also change in my preferences later.
You can't hear the change in amplitude often when phase shift is the issue, especially when it throws the phase rotation out so that the waveform becomes asymetric. In fact, it can reduce your headroom by 5db yet not be apparent besides when it internally clips plugins as a result.
Also, what might sound good in someone's space might translate awful elsewhere for a multitude of reasons. We are working with phsycis and to get good consistent results it's important to understand what's happening, so we can exercise some 'whys' with the correct 'hows'.
@@andrewhouser1334 Ever considered people can improve faster by learning properly, rather than over time by feeling around in the dark?
Look at you, Einstein!
I like to exploit this sometimes to make acoustic snares or kicks have more synthetic, ringy fundamentals. Its not always bad! You can also use extraordinary steep slopes to purposely lengthen individual frequencies by causing them to ring out.
I don't change how the samples are, for example the kick/snares, if they are already processed to sound good, and because i don't have any kinda of decent monitors... I don't even think about mess my samples.
Funny i accidentally stumbled upon this a few weeks ago didn’t know why it worked at the time but now i know :D
thanks for this tip
What visualization tool you are using for the kick?
ShaperBox's Oscilloscope Tool 👍
thanks !@@Cableguys
I noticed the same thing when removing all lows from my dirty snare, and it started clipping
Thank you for this!!!!
No problem 😊
Thank you so much
Even a small adjustment to the kick start point can help.
Sometimes i want it to increase in peak by doing it then i compensate the volume fader
Or just clip the kick after doing that. Adds some snap, which you can then tame in the highs if needed.
Phase shift only really is an issue because you're shifting the bass into the transient.
How about using a natural phase setting and still making an aggressive low cut. Will that be okay?
Very interesting, I'll take note of this because I'm one of those "cut it all and give me space!!" Kinda producers 😅
Absolutely. EQ8 4x is hindering so many productions. Stopped using it a while ago.
This is all minimum phase eqs not just eq8.
@@Trickey2413 nothing wrong with minimum phase. Every analog EQ is minimum phase, and they sound great.
@@happylittlesynth i agree, minimum phase is arguably preferable to linear phase in most use cases.
What is that linear spectrum analyzer is named please ?
A free plugin called 'FX23 - PsyScope'
@@Music-tg5is no its the oscillator from their plugin shaperbox.
But yes i have FX23 and it rocks
Have anyone told you about FIR filters and linear phase filters?
FIR = Lin phase. IIR = Min phase. :D
just sidechain lol..
I recently started use eq 8 on my kicks to SLIGHTLY remove some low end and then I put a compressor on my bass and sidechain to the kick.
People often say using linear phase will solve the phasing issues, which is true. However I wouldn’t use linear phase on a kick (or any transient-rich sound) because it induces pre-ringing which “announces” the sound so to say. You probably won’t consciously hear the pre-ringing but you will feel like the kick lost all of it’s power/impact for seemingly no reason
You make a very good point!
Also, nothing kills the warmth, fullness and "closeness" of a lead vocal (ie: a song's focal point) like high pass filtering "to make space" for other elements.
Can't you apply a phase less filter though? If you don't have access to a phase less algo you can play in reverse and filter the reversed time history after you do it forward.
Honestly highpassing kicks or bass has been one of my go too tricks if I’m having phase alignment issues with kick or bass. Works more often than not in my case
smart. that way you solve 2 things at the same time. removing mud and aligning phase. this only works if the sounds weren't aligned well yet ofc
@@TheJohnsofDoes if your sounds correlate pretty bad to begin with the drastic phasing of a pass-filter can shake things up to actually become better sometimes. little delays are rarely a problem. if they were, we wouldn't be throwing 100th of allpass filters on everything right? IIR filters don't generally make things worse just because they have a phase response
What is that Oscillator Waveform Viewer plugin that he's using?
This is gold.
If you put linear phase?
Linear phase filter might help
doesnt the linear phase option minimise that?
Best sound is 69db/octave but sometimes 420db/octave is required. Wait are we talking filters here or .... ?
Wait what do you use to monitor the waveform? I’ve been looking for this for the longest time 😭
It's ShaperBox 3's Oscilloscope Tool 👍
I'm new to producing so i dont get it: why are we lowering the lows of the bass in the first place? Isn't bass supposed to kick the hardest in the lowend?
Out of curiosity - what is even the point of low-cutting kicks and sub basses?
I've personally never done it
High passing a kick to keep it out of the way of the sub is pretty common
@@LanielDevy oh okay. I mostly make EDM, so I just sidechain the sub to the kick to retain the low end punch of the kick. It's interesting tho, to see different mixing techniques. Thank you for your reply
There’s usually too much energy in the
What oscilliscope are you using to monitor the kick’s waveform after eq has been applied?
It's ShaperBox 3's Oscilloscope Tool 👍
Do I need to buy the whole shaperbox bundle if I just want this oscilliscope?@@Cableguys
Low shelf for the win
does this also happens with analog gear? thanks
Any filter is gonna cause phase changes as far as I’m aware
Analog EQ is always going to be minimum phase.
What are you using to see the waveform?
That's the Oscilloscope Tool in ShaperBox 3 👍
-48db is a 360 rotation, worth it?
Good tip
Why would you high pass a kick apart from as an effect? Some kick samples sound amazing on their own, just with a bit of maximising.
There are many better options than this.
If your kick is too subby:
Pick a different kick that isn’t
Turn the whole kick down until the sub frequencies are the right volume and then layer a clicky sample on top to get that high end back.
Saturate the kick so it has more mids/highs and turn down until sub frequencies are balanced.
ADVANCED: create your own eq using serum. Play the root note of your kick for the length of your kick. Shape the envelope to match your kicks envelope. Turn off random phase. Open wavetable editor and mess with the phase of the fundamental frequency until it’s 180 degrees out of phase with the kicks fundamental.
Now the more you turn up serum the more it will cancel out or turn down the fundamental of your kick.
You can add more partials in the wavetable editor to do the same thing with other frequencies. Just adjust the phase and amplitude of any frequency you want to cut or boost. In phase to boost, out of phase to cut.
This is essentially how an EQ works except you have all the control over which specific frequencies phase shifted and by how much.
You can do this to any sound btw
🤪
what's with that phase shift? how?
6db per octave is a 90 degree phase shift, still detrimental to the low end. Low shelf or even better linear phase is the way.
what oscilloscope is he using?
ShaperBox 3’s Oscilloscope Tool 👍
Or just use harsh cuts, use your ears to see if the sound is ok, then use a clipper to make use of that saved headroom.
tbh it has almost nothing to do with phase shift (at least in a case of one low-order filter) but just simple resonance nature of high-order filters. First-order filter (6dB per octave) simply can't have that resonance
Thankyou
Remove the sub bass of everything except the kick and bass. (Sometimes I leave the sub bass on the snare because it makes it hit just a litttle be harder)
What are "Headroom" and "Punch" ?
Headroom is the space between your peaks and 0 dbfs. Punch is just a word to describe the impact of a kick or bass...or any other instrument for that matter.
or you just use linear phase filters. preringing sounds nice anyway. or you just softclip after the filter. that sounds nice on transients anyway. there are a lot of ways to deal with it
Use 2 eqs one hard and one soft hpf in sequence
or use linear and natural phase filters?
1. Natural phase warps the phase too (but it does it like "analogue" eq's)
2. Linear phase can affect transients with pre-ring effect
That's even worse
Who Hp with a 48db/oct ?
Use a 6 or 12 …
Deal with it later on in master to get the level up (more sub 30hz attenuation
I don't know how much I buy "for more headroom" when so much audio is mastered as a rectangle these days, tbh
SUPER COOL
😎👍
You dont need to cut the kick higher then 35hz at 45hz the eg in this video would be cutting frequency's that you can actually hear.
Thankiea
Пригодиться 👍
jeff cavalier of music
Wich oscilloscope are you using? 🤔
It's ShaperBox 3's Oscilloscope Tool 👍
@@Cableguys I've had I've been using shaperbox for a while, And just now I realize that I had that function 😂
Thank you ❤️
It's kind of funny that digital filters are still mimicking the effects of physical circuitry. Maybe there are filters that don't introduce phase shift--it's fully possible in a digital space.
the word roll off is used for a reason, not cut
I high pass every mix at 20 hz and low pass at 20 kHz. I hardly ever high pass a kick unless it’s a super punchy high kick 💯
Or fix it with a phaser pluggin in the master
Or use them just not to strong and in linear mode
You create the best TickTocks ever!
Thanks!
You are on RUclips dude.lmao!! ..Chines Tik Tok is not relevant in the music industry
To fix the unwanted volume peaks while EQing, make sure to use linear phase within your EQ and you won’t have this issue.
Using Linear phase on kicks and base introduces more problems than a phase shift due to pre ringing, so actuallybe very careful when using linear phase eq
Nope, using linear phase eq will introduce pre ringing. You could get around this somewhat by printing to audio anything you use linear phase eq on and just using that one instance of each note though.
Pre ringing is not always that severe of an issued tho. it depends on the settings of your eq Like slope steepness and the original audio. In my experience Phase shifting tends to alter the Waveform a lot more then lin Phase Processing in general, which leads to vastly different results, when using distortion compression or limiting in the Chain after.
@@BenHall289It depends on the content that you are applying it to. I use linear phase EQs on kicks and sub base and there is no audible pre-ring and nothing that is noticeable within a mix. It depends on the situation. If I am applying it to a synth however or something with a lot of high frequencies then there's definitely pre-ring
@@zechs5079 Yeah kick and bass in psytrance is highly engineered and linear phase eq on them can really fuck with it. The answer is to just use it on one instance of the bass hit and one instance of the kick and then bounce to audio. If I make drum n bass or something like that I can’t usually hear any issues but psytrance kick n bass have to be sample/ms perfect so you definitely can.
or just use a linear phase eq
… at the expense of pre-ringing and high latency/CPU.
Linear phasepre ringing sounds worse than minimum phase post ringing most of the time imo
Why the hell does the audio volume go down at the end of his sentences
Why would anyone high pass a kick?!😮
Linear phase fixes this and wont increase gain. FL parametic eq 2 has the feauture.
Not really