The bitterest part of the GMTV win was that their bid did turn out to be unsustainably high and only a few years later they successfully persuaded the ITC to reduce it. Bruce Gyngell publicly predicted that GMTV (or Sunrise as it was still called at the time) would be bust within a year [if they paid the full bid amount each year] - underlining his view that TV-am had bid the maximum sustainable amount for the franchise. And in the end he turned out to be not far off.
Carlton was blocked by both Thames and the IBA from buying Thames in 1989, Michael Green who was the Chairman of Carlton was also reported to be a major contributor to Conservative Party funding at the time.
ITV turns 60 this year, but the network did not launch across the UK as one network, it started in London in 1955, it took until 1962 for all of the UK to be covered by ITV.
@@JackP5225 It will never happen. ITV plc is merely an airtime sales company for other people's programme contributions / independent programme maker's material to its national network and news is nothing more than an interruption these days. A diet of reality shows, formats and archive repeats these days with no input from viewers like the old 17 itv company structure was. They cared. ITV plc doesn't. In its eyes viewers don't count. Its purpose is to make money spending little on costs as it can. It's rubbish! Anyone like Stevie who says itv is good these days needs their head looking at because they are brain-dead boring like he is!
It's all true and the franchise auction was an absolute travesty. However, the final seconds of this clip are true too, and in the end it didn't matter. Carlton had been eyeing up Thames for years and would have bought it out as soon as that was allowed, and the dominance of market forces and multi-channel TV would have had the same effect on ITV anyway.
Whilst Thames should never have lost its franchise, its the only ITV regional name you still see at the end of shows like X Factor and Britain's Got Talent. Just a shame they don't bring the old logo back.
Not quite, STV still produce programmes for ITV too, so you still see their name at the end of programmes such as Catchphrase. They are effectively the last region standing.
Thames Television, as a company, has no value whatsoever. Its name has been thrown around by its new overlords in Pearson/Freemantle/RTL in an endless array of subsiduaries, producing what is considered a lowbrow entertainment for the masses. Today's Thames Television has nothing to do with the Thames Television of old - they only share name...and that's it.
To all of you saying Thames shouldn't have been replaced by Carlton, you are all deluded, did you know that Carlton was responsible for creating some of ITV's best loved programmes such as alphabet castle, Tots Tv, Family Fortunes and who wants to be a millionaire. And Carlton's logo and idents were great as well, if Thames had kept the franchise none of what I mentioned would've happened so I'm glad that Thames lost the franchise
well its granda and carlton that made modern day itv so if Thames stayed then the whole franchise thing might still exist today, or maybe not because granda did buy alot of the other itv franchises as did carlton
Unfortunately, Thames majority shareholder at the time was Thorn EMI who had no appetite to spend vast amounts of money each year paying the Government for the franchise.
remember Thorn EMI had been trying to sell off Thames since the mid 80s and even when it went on to the stock exchange not alot of ppl wanted to buy the shares.
True. Gyngell was a bastard for locking out the unionized workers and then sacking them all only to be replaced with blackleg labour. But, let's be honest, breakfast telly has always been shite anyway. It's just something remotely interesting to gawp at while having your breakfast to.
Did the chief executive at TVS carry out his threat and is there no plaque in the Maidstone Studios reception that proclaimed who opened the complex? I would like to know.
ITV should have another franchise round. But it should be done the way it was before this one, then hopefully we might get better programmes again. I can’t believe they haven’t done it yet. Because of this, Thames Television have never had a chance to get their franchise back. Thames was definitely way better than Carlton.
Carlton may have purchased Central Independent Television and wallpapered over the Central name, but those programmes will always be Central to me and just presented by Carlton. Carlton Television never produced a single decent programme.
@@glenncooney3959 i agree - i may be biased growing up in a Central tv region in the 80s (Leicestershire) but i always thought Central was the backbone of itv :) :)
The bidding system was barmy, because if you bid too much or too little you lost, and the programme quality threshold became irrelevant and there was no middle way out.
@@sillygoose635 You're wrong! It lead to crap programmes, a relaxing of the rules by a backwards looking light touch operator, and more rubbish clogging our airwaves. I honestly don't know how you can rightfully agree with Maggie Thatcher and a general shake up of itv! Maggie Thatcher was a bloody interfering cow!
Thatchers last act of knackering something up that wasn't already broken! "Restrictive practices" she says? What the hell would she or her cabinet know?
@@whatamalike She had it in for Thames and decided to force the pace of change where the unions were pulling ITV's string by bollocksing up the network thru privatisation and deregulation of ITV. Led to downing the standards and upping the rubbish...
@@anthonyperkins7556 oh yeah death on the rock showed her government up massively, which for Thatcher, in her Pinochet in a dress phase, was unacceptable.
+Andrew Clarke Yes, but they didn't. Carlton had the money. Thames was a vast money making machine, so I am surprised they were outbid. Thames made millions, so I am assuming they underbid thinking they would get the franchise under the quality threshold and special circumstances. Thames did not think it through. Remember the big winners who won by bidding higher actually had their money reduced within 2-3 years, as it became apparent they would not be able to continue. So Thames should have bid very high, and they would have won.
John King but some were able to keep their regions (STV and Central) while not having to spend much money at all. The biggest flaw of that whole thing was people winning contracts based on paper as opposed to their body of work overall (some of the bidders had nothing to their names in terms of production)
Andrew Clarke,You're right there because Thames had much better programmes in their time than Carlton did and not only ruined Television for London but for the whole of The ITV Network.
Steve _G I suppose what you said to tsangari was right. TV-am was located in Camden Town on the River Thames where they could get access to Thames or LWT so say there was an emergency or major incident like the Great Storm of 1987 it would it make it easier for the presenters to broadcast from either company in such circumstances.
Yes they did; this is what I have been saying. Now that GMTV was situated at LWT's studios and Carlton moved its staff who shared its presentation facilities having the London feed of ITV coming from one premises made life easier for British Telecom.
ITV once produced quality shows like this week and world in action. Today it produces shows such as love island and the only way is Essex enough said..
I always wonder what would have happened had North West TV won and Thames as Yorkshire/Tyne Tees were already on the edge with their own bids not sure they could have sustained taking on the North West for £35m. If Granada had fallen & Carlton hadn't won what would we have now or would Granada & Carlton just have bought the others out anyway?
@@Blubatt Nah, I think while mergers and such would've taken place, it wouldn't have been as bad as it became. Thames was so synonymous with its region (as was Granada for the north west) that it would've stuck out like a sore thumb if they, say, did the same as Carlton in the midlands and south west by imposing their name on those regions. Then again, while I am by and large anti ITV in its corporate makeup, I do agree that mergers were necessary for the network to survive. How the heck could the likes of Tyne Tees, Border, Grampian, the TSW/Westcountry and even Anglia survive in a much more competitive media landscape when they struggled to sell their own ad space when they were the only game in town!? A good indication of this was whether Channel 4 in the 80s and early 90s showed adverts or not between programs as the adspace was sold by the regional ITV companies.
@@whatamalike The issue is that this is purely speculation. Had Thames Television kept its franchise (assuming that this is the only deviation from our timeline) we don't know what their corporate plans were. There would be no London News Network since Carlton would not win the franchise. We do know is that they cut staff before the franchise round, and started to commission more programmes, rather than produce in house. Post-1993, this likely would have continued. As for takeovers/mergers? We don't know what they would have done. Would Pearson TV have bought a still active Thames, in an alternate 1993? I think with Thames, be it independent, or owned by Pearson, could have bought the UNM regions in 1998/1999. They'd still buy Yorkshire-Tyne Tees, b. UNM would still own Meridian, Anglia, and HTV. As for Westcountry and Central, Carlton may still have bought the controlling stake of Central, but may not have bought the controlling stake in Westcountry, with UNM getting it (like they nearly did in 1996). I think, in an alternate 1999, you would have: Granada- Granada, Yorkshire, Tyne Tees, LWT (Maybe) Carlton- Central Thames- Thames, Westcountry, Meridian, and Anglia
Carlton should've been disqualified on quality grounds. The ITC made a terrible mistake by not disqualifying Carlton either on quality grounds or business plans.
To all of you saying Thames shouldn't have been replaced by Carlton, you are all deluded, did you know that Carlton was responsible for creating some of ITV's best loved programmes such as alphabet castle, Tots Tv, Family Fortunes and who wants to be a millionaire. And Carlton's logo and idents were great as well, if Thames had kept the franchise none of what I mentioned would've happened so I'm glad that Thames lost the franchise
Sir Paul Fox was right when it came to Carlton Television. I mean for example Carlton Television made what is possibly the most pointless television program in British television history with “The Brighton Belles”. “The Brighton Belles” was just a knock off of the classic American sitcom, “The Golden Girls”. It mostly used the same exact lines and scripts as the “The Golden Girls” and even though not many people saw most of the episodes of “The Golden Girls” most people had seen at lest a few episodes, or had seen the Royal Variety Performance in which the main cast of “The Golden Girls” had appeared on, so the viewers just found “The Brighton Belles” to be just a bad knock off of the American series so it did terrible in the viewing figures. It did so badly in fact that “The Brighton Belles” was taken off the air after just six episodes had aired with the remaining five airing as slot filler over a year later. So Carlton Television was just there to make pointless television.
The bitterest part of the GMTV win was that their bid did turn out to be unsustainably high and only a few years later they successfully persuaded the ITC to reduce it. Bruce Gyngell publicly predicted that GMTV (or Sunrise as it was still called at the time) would be bust within a year [if they paid the full bid amount each year] - underlining his view that TV-am had bid the maximum sustainable amount for the franchise. And in the end he turned out to be not far off.
Carlton was blocked by both Thames and the IBA from buying Thames in 1989, Michael Green who was the Chairman of Carlton was also reported to be a major contributor to Conservative Party funding at the time.
ITV turns 60 this year, but the network did not launch across the UK as one network, it started in London in 1955, it took until 1962 for all of the UK to be covered by ITV.
Bring back proper regional ITV.
no.
Regional itv was good
@@JackP5225 It will never happen. ITV plc is merely an airtime sales company for other people's programme contributions / independent programme maker's material to its national network and news is nothing more than an interruption these days. A diet of reality shows, formats and archive repeats these days with no input from viewers like the old 17 itv company structure was. They cared. ITV plc doesn't. In its eyes viewers don't count. Its purpose is to make money spending little on costs as it can. It's rubbish! Anyone like Stevie who says itv is good these days needs their head looking at because they are brain-dead boring like he is!
Corrie is the remnant of granada
This would mean breaking up the current ITV plc, and we know this is never going to happen.
It's all true and the franchise auction was an absolute travesty. However, the final seconds of this clip are true too, and in the end it didn't matter. Carlton had been eyeing up Thames for years and would have bought it out as soon as that was allowed, and the dominance of market forces and multi-channel TV would have had the same effect on ITV anyway.
Whilst Thames should never have lost its franchise, its the only ITV regional name you still see at the end of shows like X Factor and Britain's Got Talent. Just a shame they don't bring the old logo back.
Not quite, STV still produce programmes for ITV too, so you still see their name at the end of programmes such as Catchphrase. They are effectively the last region standing.
@@HalfbrickVHS But STV never lost its right to broadcast!
Thames Television, as a company, has no value whatsoever. Its name has been thrown around by its new overlords in Pearson/Freemantle/RTL in an endless array of subsiduaries, producing what is considered a lowbrow entertainment for the masses. Today's Thames Television has nothing to do with the Thames Television of old - they only share name...and that's it.
TVS (my region) should have been kept as well, despite me still being nostalgic over Meridian.
To all of you saying Thames shouldn't have been replaced by Carlton, you are all deluded, did you know that Carlton was responsible for creating some of ITV's best loved programmes such as alphabet castle, Tots Tv, Family Fortunes and who wants to be a millionaire. And Carlton's logo and idents were great as well, if Thames had kept the franchise none of what I mentioned would've happened so I'm glad that Thames lost the franchise
Even if Thames had won, the result would be Thames running the network from 2002, instead of Granada
Which would not, necessarily, have been a bad thing.
@@stevenbeaven1 Agreed
well its granda and carlton that made modern day itv so if Thames stayed then the whole franchise thing might still exist today, or maybe not because granda did buy alot of the other itv franchises as did carlton
based on quality threshold then surely Thames shouldve won easily regardless of cash
MJPExeter Thames made some pretty decent programmes
well the problem was the quality of death on the rock
@@kentallard8852 As in the quality was spot on. It pretty much got the facts right, much to the discomfort of Mrs Thatcher
Unfortunately, Thames majority shareholder at the time was Thorn EMI who had no appetite to spend vast amounts of money each year paying the Government for the franchise.
remember Thorn EMI had been trying to sell off Thames since the mid 80s and even when it went on to the stock exchange not alot of ppl wanted to buy the shares.
@@Gallowaywind Just for the sin of dumping Benny Hill, Thames deserves to burn in hell. How much money did cancelling Hill cost them?
Very true, although I did smile wryly when Tv-am lost their franchise
True. Gyngell was a bastard for locking out the unionized workers and then sacking them all only to be replaced with blackleg labour.
But, let's be honest, breakfast telly has always been shite anyway. It's just something remotely interesting to gawp at while having your breakfast to.
He underbid. No sympathy.
0:53-Still of Thames Television ident with the rippling effect from the lower half.
Did the chief executive at TVS carry out his threat and is there no plaque in the Maidstone Studios reception that proclaimed who opened the complex? I would like to know.
Yes... The plaque was indeed removed... And scrapped.
That was a reporter not the chief executive or any board member
Richard Dunne’s words were absolutely spot on.
R.I.P Richard Dunn (1943-1998)
ITV should have another franchise round. But it should be done the way it was before this one, then hopefully we might get better programmes again. I can’t believe they haven’t done it yet. Because of this, Thames Television have never had a chance to get their franchise back. Thames was definitely way better than Carlton.
Can't remember a single networked programme made by CARLON Television.
Old Bear Stories? That is probably the single decent programme that Carlton ever commissioned
Could be contended that Cadfael and Sharpe were once they bought Central.
They were!
Carlton may have purchased Central Independent Television and wallpapered over the Central name, but those programmes will always be Central to me and just presented by Carlton. Carlton Television never produced a single decent programme.
@@glenncooney3959 i agree - i may be biased growing up in a Central tv region in the 80s (Leicestershire) but i always thought Central was the backbone of itv :) :)
I would love to see this full program of this
The bidding system was barmy, because if you bid too much or too little you lost, and the programme quality threshold became irrelevant and there was no middle way out.
1990 Broadcasting Act=the death of ITV
not at all.
@@sillygoose635 You're wrong! It lead to crap programmes, a relaxing of the rules by a backwards looking light touch operator, and more rubbish clogging our airwaves. I honestly don't know how you can rightfully agree with Maggie Thatcher and a general shake up of itv! Maggie Thatcher was a bloody interfering cow!
Thatchers last act of knackering something up that wasn't already broken!
"Restrictive practices" she says? What the hell would she or her cabinet know?
@@whatamalike She had it in for Thames and decided to force the pace of change where the unions were pulling ITV's string by bollocksing up the network thru privatisation and deregulation of ITV. Led to downing the standards and upping the rubbish...
@@anthonyperkins7556 oh yeah death on the rock showed her government up massively, which for Thatcher, in her Pinochet in a dress phase, was unacceptable.
Thames should have won! Period😞.
+Andrew Clarke Yes, but they didn't. Carlton had the money. Thames was a vast money making machine, so I am surprised they were outbid. Thames made millions, so I am assuming they underbid thinking they would get the franchise under the quality threshold and special circumstances. Thames did not think it through. Remember the big winners who won by bidding higher actually had their money reduced within 2-3 years, as it became apparent they would not be able to continue. So Thames should have bid very high, and they would have won.
John King but some were able to keep their regions (STV and Central) while not having to spend much money at all. The biggest flaw of that whole thing was people winning contracts based on paper as opposed to their body of work overall (some of the bidders had nothing to their names in terms of production)
... Atleast Thames were not completely screwed.
Andrew Clarke,You're right there because Thames had much better programmes in their time than Carlton did and not only ruined Television for London but for the whole of The ITV Network.
yes, they SHOULD have, but they didn't, move on
ITV never recovered. Look at the state of it now
At least thames now does programming independent from itv.
They're not really Thames though. Its a subsidiary with the name Thames
@@Blubatt May whoever designed their current logo burn in the same hell as Bruce Gyngell.
COME BACK 4 OF YOU
Steve _G I suppose what you said to tsangari was right. TV-am was located in Camden Town on the River Thames where they could get access to Thames or LWT so say there was an emergency or major incident like the Great Storm of 1987 it would it make it easier for the presenters to broadcast from either company in such circumstances.
Yes they did; this is what I have been saying. Now that GMTV was situated at LWT's studios and Carlton moved its staff who shared its presentation facilities having the London feed of ITV coming from one premises made life easier for British Telecom.
When ITV that we knew it *truly* started to die, before going for good in 2004 (when Granada and Carlton merged).
Carlton, more like Crapton. Thames should've kept their franchise, they were better.
ITV once produced quality shows like this week and world in action. Today it produces shows such as love island and the only way is Essex enough said..
I always wonder what would have happened had North West TV won and Thames as Yorkshire/Tyne Tees were already on the edge with their own bids not sure they could have sustained taking on the North West for £35m. If Granada had fallen & Carlton hadn't won what would we have now or would Granada & Carlton just have bought the others out anyway?
@AidanLunn One of his mocks is a featured video from where I'm sat, angry doesn't begin to describe it...
Have you got the rest of this show??
Don't you just hate the Tories?...just look how they left the Railway...
So...what if Thames won?
It would have changed nothing. I reckon there would still be some version of the current ITV we have today.
@@Blubatt Nah, I think while mergers and such would've taken place, it wouldn't have been as bad as it became. Thames was so synonymous with its region (as was Granada for the north west) that it would've stuck out like a sore thumb if they, say, did the same as Carlton in the midlands and south west by imposing their name on those regions.
Then again, while I am by and large anti ITV in its corporate makeup, I do agree that mergers were necessary for the network to survive. How the heck could the likes of Tyne Tees, Border, Grampian, the TSW/Westcountry and even Anglia survive in a much more competitive media landscape when they struggled to sell their own ad space when they were the only game in town!? A good indication of this was whether Channel 4 in the 80s and early 90s showed adverts or not between programs as the adspace was sold by the regional ITV companies.
@@whatamalike The issue is that this is purely speculation. Had Thames Television kept its franchise (assuming that this is the only deviation from our timeline) we don't know what their corporate plans were.
There would be no London News Network since Carlton would not win the franchise. We do know is that they cut staff before the franchise round, and started to commission more programmes, rather than produce in house. Post-1993, this likely would have continued. As for takeovers/mergers? We don't know what they would have done. Would Pearson TV have bought a still active Thames, in an alternate 1993?
I think with Thames, be it independent, or owned by Pearson, could have bought the UNM regions in 1998/1999. They'd still buy Yorkshire-Tyne Tees, b. UNM would still own Meridian, Anglia, and HTV. As for Westcountry and Central, Carlton may still have bought the controlling stake of Central, but may not have bought the controlling stake in Westcountry, with UNM getting it (like they nearly did in 1996).
I think, in an alternate 1999, you would have:
Granada- Granada, Yorkshire, Tyne Tees, LWT (Maybe)
Carlton- Central
Thames- Thames, Westcountry, Meridian, and Anglia
@@Blubatt Of course it's all speculation, but its interesting to theorize how things could've been :)
Not much would have changed! It was still a case of acquire or be acquired.
It was riged???? Well, good thing she was fired.
Carlton should've been disqualified on quality grounds. The ITC made a terrible mistake by not disqualifying Carlton either on quality grounds or business plans.
To all of you saying Thames shouldn't have been replaced by Carlton, you are all deluded, did you know that Carlton was responsible for creating some of ITV's best loved programmes such as alphabet castle, Tots Tv, Family Fortunes and who wants to be a millionaire. And Carlton's logo and idents were great as well, if Thames had kept the franchise none of what I mentioned would've happened so I'm glad that Thames lost the franchise
Sounds like play or film material.
Itv these days is bland boring
Sir Paul Fox was right when it came to Carlton Television. I mean for example Carlton Television made what is possibly the most pointless television program in British television history with “The Brighton Belles”. “The Brighton Belles” was just a knock off of the classic American sitcom, “The Golden Girls”. It mostly used the same exact lines and scripts as the “The Golden Girls” and even though not many people saw most of the episodes of “The Golden Girls” most people had seen at lest a few episodes, or had seen the Royal Variety Performance in which the main cast of “The Golden Girls” had appeared on, so the viewers just found “The Brighton Belles” to be just a bad knock off of the American series so it did terrible in the viewing figures. It did so badly in fact that “The Brighton Belles” was taken off the air after just six episodes had aired with the remaining five airing as slot filler over a year later. So Carlton Television was just there to make pointless television.
I wonder if they put it up for tender again would 37 different companies bother bidding to invest in the crap ITV network now?
*OMFG*
At least Maggie is no more