Korin: Too much wasted movement. That’s why you run out of breath quickly. Kami: Be as tranquil as the heavens and as quick as a bolt from the blue. Popo: Pecking order.
HuntedGuy this fight is so dumb. Roshi couldnt even put up a fight with piccolo in the original series but now he is dodging attacks from someone who’s stronger than a god of destruction. They did this to make him relevant in the manga
@@Samir-rd8xp Jiren simply held back so he wouldn't accidentally kill Roshi. Think of it as Ssj Vegeta who was no match for Beerus, still putting up somewhat of a fight after Bulma got hit. Beerus was stronger, yet he received some blows from Vegeta when finally defeating him much like how Jiren knocked out Roshi later once he adjusted his power to what he needed.
Everyone hating on this scene, but I think it’s perfect. If DB Super does have an overarching theme, that’s the return of the martial arts roots of the series. And Roshi is perfect to represent it. Plus it is interesting that Goku himself, after so many years of relying on Ssj, gradually and unconsciously forgot about his roots as a martial artist, and began to believe - like the audience did - that his power came uniquely from his transformations. That he WAS his transformations, that without them he is nothing. Roshi simply reminds him that’s not the case, that the secret of his power - the secret Vegeta finally understood at the end of the Buu saga - is his completely pure and humble heart. Which grants him access to Ultra Instinct. And who better than Roshi can represent this, since Roshi trained Grandpa Gohan, and Grandpa Gohan is where Goku’s pure heart comes from? In short words, I really think people randomly criticizing this scene because of “power levels” should take a closer look at it. The scene itself exists to tell us and Goku that power levels are not everything. It is, again, a beautiful homage to the roots of Dragon Ball.
The Cod The Cod DB Manga Ultra Instinct is not “boom, power of the gods”. It is “less power, more technique”. Jiren himself states that Goku has not properly surpassed him in terms of power. He’s simply moving faster and better, thus managing to exploit openings with perfect timing. This said, Goku is still a Super Saiyan capable of mastering the power of a god. So obviously there’s a difference between him and Roshi when using UI. Roshi is physically too weak to do more than evading some of Jiren’s attacks (and it would’ve been the same with Raditz), while Goku is more than strong enough to become a serious threat when UI channels his strength in a more effective way. About martial arts in general... well, I’m no expert in real life, but at least for how they were presented in the DB world (mainly by Karin and Kami) they were always about finding inner calmness and purity. Which is what Ultra Instinct is about. And who says it can’t be accessed at will? It’s a state of mind, a feeling. Once you got a taste of it, with proper training you can learn to tap into it at will. Super Saiyan was introduced the same way, since it was a sort of divine power that awakened when the warrior lost control of his conscious self. And now Goku&Co access it consciously every five minutes.
The Cod The ToP in the manga was undoubtedly rushed and overall... well, bad, and the struggle it took Goku to get to UI would have deserved faaar more space and time. But technically it is there: the struggle was the entire battle with Jiren, during which he couldn’t tell why he couldn’t overcome the difference in power. Roshi merely gave him the final key to the solution, the last needed push. On the contrary, back on Namek, Vegeta’s dying speech only gave him the first factor needed to reach Ssj - the full acceptance of Goku’s Saiyan roots - while the second factor - a fit of uncontrollable rage - still wasn’t there. Then, about the contradiction part: achieving the ability to tap into UI (and tap out of it) doesn’t mean you achieve control over your body while using it, which of course would be contradictory. It simply means you can voluntarily push your body into, or out of, that state. This doesn’t change the fact that your body will move on its own WHILE in the state. And Roshi, well... I really can’t see your problem here. His VERY brief exchange of punches against Jiren is meant as a demonstration to Goku, nothing more. He’s not even using UI, he’s just moving in a way that reminds Whis of it. And Jiren was not fighting to kill. Had Roshi tried his “demonstration” against a truly vicious opponent like Nappa and Vegeta were back then, they would’ve slaughtered him on the spot. Plus, Goku would have done absolutely nothing with the UI principles back in Z, even if Roshi had given him some extra lessons sooner, since UI is a godly technique. Goku gained access to it only after discovering and mastering God ki. Prior to that, even if he had followed the principles of UI to the letter, he would’ve simply moved a bit better.
@@thecod2345 the anime did a shit job with introducing UI, imagine getting this broken ass power up where he STILL GETS HIT after mastering it for no FUCKING reason by falling into his attack. What fucking part of that leads to UI it actually would make more sense if he got another ssj form. Also no one talks about where he fucking went after the spirit bomb either. The manga doesn't do a good job with UI, it does a less shitty job
@@thecod2345 Didn't I literally just say that the manga did a less shit job, MY point is that him remembering EVERY teaching he forgot because of his pursuit of raw power was forgotten but roshi reminded him of that, now it should have taken him a lot longer to achieve or master it but so far him only lasting a few minutes in UI is better than in the anime where there was absolutely zero tension about wether he would lose. Cause "I'm out of stamina" really doest check out when he can still go ssb kaioken when he fucking feels like it. It was in asspull IN BOTH OF THEM
It's clear that Jiren has more power, but after the first round, You can see that he developed respect towards Master Roshi. He went for a quick, clean and relatively weak hit to knock him out rather than the big, somewhat clumsy and massive attacks he usually uses.
@@theultimatetrashman887 the entire point here is that Roshi isn’t powerful, but he has a mastery of martial arts that lets him avoid attacks from people way stronger than himself. His attacks were like feathers to Jiren.
Gods have a longer life span so think of it this way a dog at 20 human years would be a very old dog but 20 years for a human is young it's just that beerus is young and not aged to be elderly yet because of his longer life span compared to a human so in conclusion, beerus is like physically as old as like goku but because he's a god, being a adult means having around millions of years cause they age slower
Maturity doesnt only come from age, but also lifetime if that makes any sense. From Beerus perspective, 1000 years might felt like a day, and he only achieved this kind of "maturity" when he was considered old on his own race's lifetime.
When master roshi tells Gohan in freeza movie that he hasn't kept up with his training... This low key means roshi always trains... I used to always think of him at Dragonball level but I wonder how strong he really is
From forums I have read and the creators of dragon ball z they have confirmed we have never seen more than 50 pct of roshis true power reason he did not use it in super is imo he let his guard down a few times and drained his stamina
Muten Roshi doesn't have much strength but he overcomes opponents with technique hence his fights are interesting. UI Muten Roshi should he canon because as he said, Ultra Instinct isn't a power boost but a state of peaceful mind martial artists try to achieve so it's obvious that Muten Roshi is probably able to use it even if it's for few seconds. So while Muten Roshi is able to dodge Jiren's punches, he doesn't have the fire power to beat Jiren. This is how you do fights, strategy and techniques>>>>ridicolous, illogical power boosts
It's not the ultra instinct technique lol it's just Roshi's version of the flow technique in martial arts which is essentially "letting go" often associated with drunkenness opening the mind to ignore physical harm and have more fluid and less rigid movement. This is Roshi's version of the concept combined with martial arts
Soith 05 sounds a lot like ultra instinct to me, we don't even know anything about it besides what whis has mentioned. Fuck if toriyama or Toyotarou says so then roshi has super mega ultra instinct. Also that is the same thing as goku, martial arts and not making unnecessary movements
@@ryanepps2183 it's a same ones U.I is the way that you let the mind go like the water in river it just like don't let your mind control your body let the body control themself All master roshi do just like it the only way can reach to UI is exp about fighting in thier limited because saiyans don't have limited in thier power so they never think about the important of thier skill but roshi knows he already reaches his limited but he never stops trainning and he learns how to let it go don't like another human like tien krillin (yamacha like a younger version of roshi but he lost his way)
@@yenee-chan8491 Same reason we got goku vs kefla while the manga had gohan fighting her. Which i was not a fan of kale or her voice actor but the two voices togeather as kefla were just fantastic in the japanese version.
Fans: We want Human characters to be relevant again! Tori: makes roshi dodge some of jiren's punches Fans: Boo, the power scaling is wack this is shit!! Booo!!
If anything it doesnt show Roshis strength at all and doesnt ruin power scaling. You could be skinny and still dodge an athletes punch if you have the skills. Thats basically whats happening here. Roshi is simply dodging and not to mention Jiren was interested in what Goku's master could do
To be fair, there's lots of better ways to make them relevant again. Training them in special techniques, doing some storyline that allows humans to have special transformations, something like that. The way they made humans relevant again was just featuring them as they are, which I personally don't care about. I want to see some development from people besides saiyans, and even to let vegeta or Gohan advance and win the final battle for once. I think the featuring of Android 17 was fantastic tho
Roshi: "Look into your heart, Goku. You will find the answer in there" Goku: *Proceeds to stab himself and take his heart out of his chest to find the answer*
Why almost everyone gets angry cuz of this?! I really like how manga gives some shine to old martial arts master and how he keeps up with few punches to show body movement to his student.
We're angry because Jiren should be so above Roshi that even with a facsimile of Ultra Instinct , he should get instantly demolished by Jiren. It made more sense to do what the anime did and have him beat reasonably more powerful foes with technique and wisdom .
People who get angry over this are kinda stupid, this is a great moment for Roshi and a valuable lesson for Goku. And power scaling isn't ruined because of this, Roshi dodged a few attacks from Jiren because he's a great martial artist (probably one of the best in Universe 7) and used something simmilar to Ultra Instinct, Jiren got a bit angry, dodged his attack and knocked him out with a single chop. This fight was the same as Beerus getting pushed a bit by angry Super Sayian 2 Vegeta, it's not because he was strong enough to do it, he just proved to be stronger than what Beerus anticipated and just like in this fight Beerus simply powers up a bit and knocks him out.
I would also like to toss in the possible explanation that Jiren, who in this iteration is hung up on his master, wanted to see what Goku's master was capable of. Plus, Roshi's showing of Mu is direct foreshadowing of Goku using Ultra Instinct. Look at the 2. They dodge Jiren's attack, but once they go on the offense, they got knocked down. Ultra Instinct alone isn't the answer to beating Jiren.
roshi can never see a jiren punch coming. i love it when a manga does something silly and ya fanboys try to explain it away with things the writer aint even think of lol it has nothing to do with sense. its relevance. they wanted roshi to he relavant a bit again in super since he lost relevance ages ago lol
@@lionzcrown1702 Jiren still knocked him out with 1 hit and characters lowering their power has been established a long time ago. In Tournament of Power killing wasn't allowed so Jiren was probably extra careful especially with Roshi.
@@lionzcrown1702 Idk what you're reading, but the author intentionally had Roshi shit on the notion that strength trumps technique (which a portion of the fanbase take issue with, since it makes powerscaling kinda pointless). Roshi criticized Goku's belief that what he needed to beat Jiren was more power by asking if Frieze and Vegeta taught him that- 2 characters that has never had a master teach them- and say that Goku was still as green as the day they met. He even mocks one of the Pride Troopers for judging him only by his low power level and not seeing "what lies underneath." Toyotaro and Toriyama (who has to approve the scripts used in the manga) are obviously sending the message that judging a character by how powerful they are is foolish and used the weakest character on Team U7 drive home the point. No one is making things up that the author themselves didn't put in the story. It's not even subtext. It's just text. Toyotaro and Toriyama are simply saying "Powerlevels are bullshit." But instead of it being a one-liner, theyre following threw on it. It's why Moro's first act as a villain was rendering SSJ forms utterly useless against him.
Jiren adjusted his power level to roshi so as not to accidentally kill him and get disqualified, but roshi's skill was such that even when jiren kept twice or thrice as strong and fast as him roshi could still predict him...
@@MillenniumEarl014 You think Roshi was dodging a serious Jiren? That would be the biggest Roshi outlier feat ever given he has no feats that place him near a guy that was smacking around TOP SSB Goku unless you think Roshi is comparable to him in speed? any supporting evidence to back that claim?!
I think the reason people had an issue with Roshi dodging Jiren's punches was they had this preconceived notion on how power should work in the series, where Toyotaro and Toriyama obviously disagree with it. You see it in the comments with people saying that Jiren by default should be so much faster than the speed of light. But as a writer, how do you depict this? How do you even write a story with that? Fights would take less then a second to happen. This whole fight was showing that things don't operate on that ridiculous scale and are actually much more grounded. Like TFS said, "power levels are bullshit". Toriyama and Toyotaro obviously agree and are trying to course correct.
@@JCMustang "some of Jiren's weaker punches were stronger than... 100% Death Ball, U7 Spirit Bomb,...etc" This is exactly what I'm talking about. That. Is. Ridiculous. A punch is just a punch. A single punch from Jiren isnt destroying a planet. Also, if Gohan is so fast, why did it take him so long to dive in front of Vegeta and take the hit for him? The answer is because Toriyama isnt concerned with powerscaling. Logically, if these fights are at the speed of light, the moment the camera changes perspective, the fight would be over. This image of db that some people in the fandom has built is boring and nonsensical.
@UCpH5w1GfrPzv2xVLADwVuXw A word of advice: stop putting so much thought into the powerscaling of this series. Toriyama stopped caring about that YEARS ago and he arbitrarily boosts and lowers the strength of anyone he wants to as the story needs it . Like, Broly went from being toyed with by Base Vegeta to contending against 2 SSBs in a single fight. Not to mention 17 being able to contend with God level opponents for no discernible reason outside of "I trained" while 18 also kept up her training, but saw no boost in power. There is no rhyme or reason put into this. I promise you- to Toriyama, Toei, and Toyotaro- a punch from Jiren is just a strong punch. He's as fast as he needs to be for that moment and will be caught off guard by telegraphed attacks when the plot needs it. Powerscaling. Is. Stupid. That was the whole point of Roshi's speech to Goku when he said he needed more power to beat Jiren.
If Toriyama and Toyotaro had such a problem with power scaling, why did they continue this story on rotten foundations and not just do a soft reboot with new characters and explain how the world of Dragonball's physics work? Hunter x Hunter, Jojo, Kimetsu no Yaiba all explain how their world's rule when it comes to how fighting works. DBS is so high off the ground when it comes to suspension of disbelief that people can't even see the floor anymore.
@@USMC49er I believe that world building isn't a particular strong suit of Toriyama's. I mean, look at the Dragonball World and Universe and compare it to worlds like One Piece. How has the world changed since the Red Ribbon Army's antics back in Dragonball? How has the introduction of Ki seen in the Buu Saga's Martial Arts Tournament affected the world? Gohan got outed as the Great Saiyaman AND the Golden Fighter, how has that changed his work, social, and private life? The moment Toriyama stepped out of the planet and into the infinite expanse of Space, he introduced us to THE strongest guy there and had out heroes beat him. Then look at One Piece- when Luffy beat Crocodile, that had consequences across the world. The world in One Piece changes due to events. Dragonball's world is horribly tiny in comparison to works such as the ones you've listed, since it didn't really change from Dragonball to Super. In the Buu Saga, Videl thought Ki was a trick like her father told her until Gohan showed her, despite Ki being used in Martial Arts tournaments for decades and has been a thing in the world as far back as Roshi's days as a student. That's why I think rebooting it and expanding it's world wasn't on the table with him. It's not an area he's comfortable in. So the next best thing is to try and fix the problem with the powerlevels in the series. Master Roshi's UI is based off the very real Mu in martial arts. It's why Beerus was shocked at the similarites. Mu is to humans what Ultra Instinct is to Gods. Roshi's showing also does 2 things: 1. It shows that weaker characters can be useful regardless of how small their number may be. 2. It foreshadows Goku's confrontation with Jiren. Right down to the moment Roshi went in to attack, he's knocked out. In the same chapter, Goku did the same thing and got put on his ass by Jiren. We see this being applied in the Moro Arc. Moro's power made the old paradigm absolutely useless. Goku and Vegeta powering up and achieving a new transformation would just make Moro stronger. It's why the comparably weaker Majin Buu had a chance thanks to the Fat Kai being dormant in him. Even in the training they're doing, it's not so much about increasing their powerlevels as it is about discovering new techniques and new ways of thinking. Think about it, when they got confronted with Broly, how did they beat him? By fusing and making their number bigger than his. They didn't sniff out a potential weak spot of his or find a way to calm him down. They beat him the same way they've beaten all of their villains: become stronger and punch really, really hard or throw a strong blast. Moro is being built up to be beaten by ingenuity and wit. At least, that's what it appears to be so far. Besides, I don't think a soft reboot would be as universally praised as you may think. Look at Dragonball Minus, for example. It changed Bardock's backstory that even Toriyama praised and made the comparisons between Goku and Superman even more blatant, which some in the community despises. I think it's best at this point to course correct and let the past be the past.
Anime:Goku gets ultra instinct because he's the main character Manga:Goku finally learns from the teachings of all his master's and with one final lesson and showing from his original master he is able to obtain ultra instinct
neverunknown that’s a dumb explanation, by that logic then there was no point in training from Z to super. That means goku could’ve got ultra instinct back in dragon ball....
More than 100 years of training but he couldn’t even put up a fight against piccolo, but then all of a sudden can dodge punches from someone that’s stronger than a god of destruction. This fight is such a fucking asspull
@@Samir-rd8xp dude what's your problem with this fight at least in the manga we have a reason for Goku getting it and I don't know what you have aginst master roshi but dude chill let him have a moment
Thing is, in the anime they just gave Roshi (and every other B lister) a massive power boost to be as strong as Goku, here it shows that while Roshi isn't able to punch as hard, he doesn't need to
I love this so much! Honestly, this is what Super was missing. Goku's journey was not just about power. His real strength didn't come just because of alien genetics from a race of warriors. Yes, his heritage obviously helps him stand out (Vegeta too). His blood gives him the ability to tap into power that no human can but that was never the point of Dragon Ball. Well, not originally at least. Goku's journey and accomplishments were built upon his experiences, his lessons and the people met, places he's been to. The real discipline it takes to be a martial artist isn't based on the strongest kei blast or how much you can flex in a single punch. It's a mastery only truly accomplished by discipline of your complete self, externally, internally and spiritually. Super needed scenes like this, and while what we got was good; it's still a far shot from greatness. This is perfect, and it even tied in all of everything that was lost with Z.
Still one of the best decisions in the manga, fight me. It very clearly/firmly set the tone for the direction UI takes in the manga as opposed to the anime's "same old spectacle power boost", As well as how the rest of the arcs will tackle more then just "More raw angry power >>> anything else" and will incorporate more styles/strategy.(while still staying true to traditional dbz, and keeping the importance of power gaps being a factor)
I like this more than the anime when he got the UI because of spirit bomb like wtf. This is beautiful they did a tribute to goku s masters and what they taught him. And that's how he got ui amazing. Thanks toyotaro
Where as I love both tbh..roshi is just 🔥🔥 But in anime, he did not attain UI by spirit bomb exactly.. it was because of battling the spirit bomb when he was almost exhausted.. Indicating that when he stops thinking and working on instinct it will be something entirely different. Plus he had been training with whis for so long exactly for UI. So both are justified.
I always love those moments when MC reflects on what their teachers have said to them, it really shows that they have come a long way, and that the basics are always important
I actually prefer this version of events over how the anime interpreted it. It adds to the depth of development between Goku and Roshi, demonstrates that Roshi can't compete with power levels but is still a martial arts wizard, and that the ominous and mysterious events of the anime concerning Goku taking on the Spirit Bomb's energy is redacted for a simpler harkening back to Dragon Ball's roots.
Of course, Jiren is superior in strength and speed. Roshi was just making a point to show how to move, he's one of the greatest martial artist we've ever seen and probably top 5. He's capable of moving so amazingly that it made Beerus think it was UI and Whis even says that its very close
A lot of people are upset due to power scaling, but it's been established that does not enough to win fights. Like in a fighting game, rather than reacting, what Roshi is doing is predicting, it's hard to react to frames that come out within a 10th or a 5th of second. So Roshi immediately dodges before Jiren throws the punch. And even then he still got grazed and even ultimately lost pretty easily. And eventhough he struggled against Piccolo before, he never stopped training since then, he even commented on how Gohan is starting to slack of on his training; And him showing a new technique just shows that he is constantly training and trying to better himself.
@@triple-d2640 How? All he did was dodge a few of Jiren's attacks only to then to be ringed out without having made a scratch on him. If a housefly can do that to normal ass people, then a dude using a move literally named *"ultra instinct"* can sure as hell do it too
@@triple-d2640 You realize how old Master Roshi is. I know those people are probably older than Roshi, don't get me wrong but Master Roshi has martial arts and since that age he's still training as a human. And of course he would get this strong, oh and he is aware of those statements to Goku as well? How? Well those decades for him wasn't spend for nothing. It's a shame that Roshi got knocked at the end.
@@DevilMarioProductions master Rosie's age doesn't affect anything, his body will remain the same that way for as long as he lives. im sure if he just gave up on fighting forever he'd outlive goku
And this is why I am pissed at myself not reading up all the manga from DB all the way to DBS. This actually almost made me cry. Thanks for sharing JY!
People fotgot this is an immortal man who mastered over 1000 techniques, spells, and charms, who defended Earth for hundreds of years before Goku came, who only stopped fighting after making sure Goku can do it. He lives alone. What do you think he does every day? He surpassed his limits in every way, to the point he could fake UI... that alone shows his love for the martial arts.
Roshi: "Sheesh, Goku. Is it all about power with you?" Also Roshi: "Well boys, the secret to the Turtle School IS the hard work you've been doing. Without realizing it you've pushed your bodies far beyond their limits. I have nothing left to teach you."
Roshi knew he didnt stand a chance in hell He wasnt fighting to win He was trying to show goku what he needed to do You never stop learning And i personally think that a good teacher never runs out of things to teach
I would have liked it if it was literally anyone from another universe but for it to be Jiren who could have speed blitz Goku from the start of the arc. I can't take power scaling serious anymore
@@romallohenry5700Yea because Goku was way more predictable than Roshi at the time. Roshi was simply acting way before Jiren made his moves. It's even reinforced in the superhero arc; With Vegeta realizing Jiren was not waaay stronger than them. Jiren had better technique and control over his ki than them. Superheroes was being written even before the Broly movie.
"And my master's as good a teacher as ever." I feel touched by this line because Goku finally remember how much his master did for him (which seemingly he long forgot) great plot line I don't care if it is Canon. Great plot
Jiren: WHY IS THIS OLD MAN SO FAST Edit: Should clarify I meant that jiren said that in the tone of that one vine where that guys high, one of 2 links right here m.ruclips.net/video/Xal-7X729ps/видео.html m.ruclips.net/video/oHg5SJYRHA0/видео.html
He's not fast. He just knows what a novice like Jiren is going to do before he even does it. The whole premise is that Roshi is such an experienced martial arts master, he starts dodging Jirens attack before even Jiren knows how he's going to attack.
Jiren was clearly suppressed given he's just confused. It's like saying Captain America actually kept Thanos hand open, nah Thanos was just suppressed and shocked at the persons defiance/will rather than there actually being a challenge. Jiren was holding back to a massive degree and was surprised this old man was dodging his >1% attacks, then he got a little more serious once the novelty wore off and chopped Roshi.
I love the idea that even though Goku is such a good fighter, he was always held back from his true potential because his saiyan biology just carried him in fights with pure stats. This was a great way to return to form from early DragonBall and I really hope that Toyotaro can fix this up
I think it would make sense if roshi had ultra instinct. It wouldn’t make his power skyrocket but it would make him a much better fighter. Roshi is one of the most intelligent martial artists in the show and he could have very well learned how to use the technique himself. But since he’s human he’d still be too weak to fight jiren.
Master Roshi was just predicting jirens movements basically before jiren thought of them, and made no mistakes since he couldn’t afford them. With his mind and body acting multiple steps before jirens that’s how he closed the enormous power gap and also probably because jiren couldn’t go to hard as to not kill roshi
Roshi deserves his honor, even though I guess Jiren had to hit slower not to kill the old Master. Still it's impressive for a human being to get to that point!
I actually love roshi having a power like ultra instinct a mastery of martial arts after living so long it’s understandable that he would know the concept as eventually achieve a power like it it’s stupid when people say “why does Roshi have it that’s so dumb”
I like this because it shows Ultra Instinct isn't gained with great power alone, but you need a state of mind that comes from a rich martial arts experience, adjusting your "flow" to your opponent and removing emotion from your actions. Roshi can't fully attain it because he's missing the power of beings like angels and GoDs who attain a greater version of this
The reason Jiren missed a couple times was because he held back even more. Remember that killing still isnt allowed so if Jiren accidentally killed Roshi he would be disqualified. And with Roshi using an unpredicted movement technique it made it difficult for Jiren to anticipate when holding back so much.
They should have left this in anime as well It makes sense for Goku to learn the only thing he was missing for ultra instinct transformation from his master
HOW DID THIS NOT MAKE IT IN THE ANIME!? This actually kinda makes Jirens character a little less op. Like what? Roshi giving goku a little lesson like old times, this right here feels like dragon ball. You have a God of destruction and an angel impressed with this old man. This would have slapped as a scene in the anime.
@@alex_dc800 now thats bs... if i remember correctly perfect cell was at a threat level that even the namekians from a planet far from earth sensed him... roshi however is nothing but a good martial artist with techniques but his power level is... wait now that i think about it that mafuba seems to be very dangerous even to zamasu
I don't get why people get mad about that particular thing. First of all, master Roshi didn't defeated Jiren, so it had almost no effect for the battle as a whole, master didn't even hurt Jiren. Second, i love when they give old characters that got "defeated by the scouters" some love, really Master Roshi and Picolo are both such great characters, both fan favorites and very important, so it's hurts my heart knowing that they are nothing but trash compared to the new characters and Goku + Vegeta. What i meant by "defeated by the scouters"? The greatest fighting animes whe had (and Dragon Ball is not one of the greatest fighting wise), all of them had something named "surprise factor", like Hunter x Hunter, if that anime was lead only by the numbers (It have numbers, but as Knuckle said, they mean nothing), we would obviously think that Pitou could have easily slaughtered everybody from the invasion team, because she had higher reserves of power than they had, but as Hunter x Hunter is not actualy guided by numbers, the invasion team had the oportunity to play smart, or on Gon's case he was more determined to kill Pitou than she was determined to stay alive and protect her king, the numbers just didn't had any meaning, because the stronger character had some serious chances of dying just like the "weaklings". But when Dragon Ball introduced the "scouter" thing, they also gave the fans the oportunity not to judge things by their own thoughts, and only accept that one character had higher numbers than others, and after that got stablished, master Roshi would never be able to even touch enemies like Buu and Cell, even knowing he was far more more experienced than any of those. Obviously some cases would not have changed, but because of some hierarchy of power, like Beerus against Roshi, that would be a diferent situation. What they made with Roshi vs. Jiren, for me was basicaly an apology for that whole scouters thing, because even Roshi, an earthly human was able to face and show what he's made of in front of one of the biggest monsters we had on that tournament. For me, an anime was not suposed to be made of battles that gets decided even before they begin, it completely ruins the experience and expectations we could have had. Honestly it doesn't talk directly about numbers, but inderectly, like the fact that Goku and Vegeta are training lifting gazilions of tons in weight (something that makes no sense but ok), or when they talk about propotions, like when Picolo say that he could not be able to help Goku and Vegeta against Broly (that moment hurt me so bad, poor Picolo). Dragon Ball have since long became an anime made for kids, i think since the beginning of the Super anime. It just don't have any blood, and the excuse that "all the characters are just too strong to bleed" isn't valid at all, when you look into the anime, we had lots of some white spots that were suposed to be filled by blood, but since a buncha kids are watching it they decided to take it out, I was like 5 yo when i first watched Freeza torturing Vegeta, and guess what? For me that scene was fucking awesome, but it looks like kids are fucking mentaly weak today. CMON DUDE, ZAMAZU STABED GOKU AND 2 MINUTES AFTER HE WAS COMPLETELY FINE LIKE WTF, HE'S STRONG BUT DUDES STILL NEED HIS FUCKING ORGANS. They are still giving Goku some new fancy hair colors (that we all know, later on they are completely going to lose their meaning, getting replaced by others), hair colors that only have the goal of selling cards and figures, and the ones that are responsible for Dragon Ball beign completely flooded by Deus ex Machina moments, when the character is at his last forces and sudenly some hidden unknown power magicaly becomes awaken, giving the character the exact amount of power he needed to defeat his curent opponent, but obviously not his next ones, because you know they need new material to sell some stuff after. That's all my criticism about Dragon Ball, and don't get me wrong i love that anime, i grew up watching it, but after waiting some decades i think that the Super anime is just commiting the same mistakes that other seasons had, and some of them even worse, that's so disappointing. I would love to see Dragon Ball beign the ultimate anime, but it have just gone too far to be able to fix it's mistakes. The manga is just doing Dragon Ball legacy some justice, of course it's not perfect, while it have fixed some old isues it have created some new ones, but since it's some recent shit i think they still have time to get to the right spot.
i mean i rlly liked the fact that roshi jumped off by himself and gained respect from beerus in the anime but this scene in the manga is rlly cool too. it just shows the great wisdom of old age that master roshi has
Okay so here's the thing...roshi is taking us back to the old days of Dragonball. *You have to rely on your moves and techniques to defeat your opponent or just standing up to them rather than having a huge power level.*
Not really sure but they said that Roshi is the closest one to Ultra Instinct(besides goku, beerus, and whis) in universe 7, welp I can't really deny it, he's a really skilled martial artist
I love that the manga does everyone so much more justice in the tournament of power, despite the fact that tien and krillin were knocked out swiftly by frost
Honestly I’ll say I like the way he chooses to fall off in the anime more than the manga, and that’s saying a lot considering how well the manga usually plays out compared to the anime. I like the exchange between Vegeta and Roshi, even Roshi is indirectly teaching Vegeta while also being the noble old geezer he’s known to be. Roshi really is amazing, he really carried his weight in the tournament of power. He also saves Vegeta, without him they definitely would’ve lost, he finished Toppo after all while 17 and Frieza were essentially out of commission
It's things like this that make me appreciate DBS. It's almost like they acknowledged that much of the DBZ era was just power ups and ki blasts. Ssj just get mad, ssj2 just get more mad, ssj3 off screen. But ssj blue was about controlling ki red the same but for speed. Ultra instinct is about clearing your mind. Super has done a good job mixing power ups with martial arts. Going back to Roshi teaching Krillin and Goku all that yard work and delivering milk was about discipline to work everyday. Bojack Horseman has an applicable quote. "Every day it gets a little easier. But you have to do it everyday, that's the hard part."
Absolutely love that DBS still made old characters relevant. Roshi knew he could never have a chance against Jiren, he sacrificed his spot on the tournament to continue teaching Goku.
WHERE THE HELL WAS THIS IN THE ANIME!? This is actually a great scene! A lesson from Goku's first teacher that helps him piece together what he needs to achieve ultra instinct, calling back to a fundamental part of the spirit of martial arts! If there was more of this in Super maybe I'd actually be able to get into it!
I wish this had been in the anime, but at the same time I also loved master roshi's episodes that aired. Both of them made him feel special again for the first time in a long time. So either the anime or the manga, both made roshi dope again just like he was when I was a kid.
Roshi: "If you're nothing without your transformations you don't deserve the transformations!"
Spider man homecoming reference
@@justarandomdude8698 yeah he read them
@@vegitodev he said he never wached or read any comics and even if he read them he's not a fan for theme to make a reference about them
@@justarandomdude8698 look up, you might just see the joke that went over your head.
@@justarandomdude8698 2 things
1you fucking dumbass
2 you fucking dumbass
Anyone: *dodges more than 2 attacks*
Beerus: "iS hE UsInG uLtRa iNsTiNct?"
Lmao
@@ultimatetrishbhatia Hello Mr. P
@@ultimatetrishbhatia Know who I am
That's literally everyone who hated this fight
😂
Korin: Too much wasted movement. That’s why you run out of breath quickly.
Kami: Be as tranquil as the heavens and as quick as a bolt from the blue.
Popo: Pecking order.
You, the dirt, the worms in the dirt, Roshi, Korin, Kami, King Kai, Whis, and then Popo
Mindless dude you forgot Popo's stool
That smile says it all
*FIRST RULE OF POPO'S TRAINING: DO NOT TALK ABOUT POPO"S TRAINING!*
@@mdsystems4463 (not even during Popo's training.)
(Scratch that, especially not during Popo's training.)
Roshi said “screw power scaling” imma use ultra instinct. What a boss
this fight did not affect the power scaling at the slightest...
Master roshi when from moon level to fighting characters that can shake the universe lol
HuntedGuy this fight is so dumb. Roshi couldnt even put up a fight with piccolo in the original series but now he is dodging attacks from someone who’s stronger than a god of destruction. They did this to make him relevant in the manga
@@Samir-rd8xp Jiren simply held back so he wouldn't accidentally kill Roshi. Think of it as Ssj Vegeta who was no match for Beerus, still putting up somewhat of a fight after Bulma got hit. Beerus was stronger, yet he received some blows from Vegeta when finally defeating him much like how Jiren knocked out Roshi later once he adjusted his power to what he needed.
Austin Mamangon saitama is a gag character, it’s not comparable
Master Roshi is no longer strongest warrior, but the greatest teacher
Not when it comes to relationship advice tho
@F2pguy
well he is single
The first part of this sentence is a lie
*the greatest
Is the best martial artist (in terms of experience).
DBZ Fans; *Arguing over who is the strongest human.*
Toriyama: "It's Roshi."
@@DerpaTure9503 shut up man seriously
@@DerpaTure9503 who are you quoting seriously what's up with the quotation mark
@@DerpaTure9503 who are you quoting seriously what's up with the quotation mark
@@DerpaTure9503 except Toriyama literally tells him what to write so....
He isn't the strongest human, he is the most skilled one
" We don't Master Martial arts to win fights we do it to conquer ourselves"
MASTER Roshi
If you thought of it as a joke alright but if not He had to do it to save the Universe :P
@@affanvh5746 Hm?
@@The-Determined-Ninja Yeah I'm also curious
"Also for b*tches."
Oh man, Roshi quoting himself from OG Dragon Ball will always make me happy!
This is non canon because roshi wouldve won with 1 punch.
Karma Anims, Roshi is just old saitama
@Kelvin Issac it's a joke*.
@@edrollagigraioe3391 wow👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
@@breezyjames8802 ???
@@edrollagigraioe3391 facts
Everyone hating on this scene, but I think it’s perfect. If DB Super does have an overarching theme, that’s the return of the martial arts roots of the series. And Roshi is perfect to represent it. Plus it is interesting that Goku himself, after so many years of relying on Ssj, gradually and unconsciously forgot about his roots as a martial artist, and began to believe - like the audience did - that his power came uniquely from his transformations. That he WAS his transformations, that without them he is nothing. Roshi simply reminds him that’s not the case, that the secret of his power - the secret Vegeta finally understood at the end of the Buu saga - is his completely pure and humble heart. Which grants him access to Ultra Instinct.
And who better than Roshi can represent this, since Roshi trained Grandpa Gohan, and Grandpa Gohan is where Goku’s pure heart comes from?
In short words, I really think people randomly criticizing this scene because of “power levels” should take a closer look at it. The scene itself exists to tell us and Goku that power levels are not everything. It is, again, a beautiful homage to the roots of Dragon Ball.
The Cod The Cod DB Manga Ultra Instinct is not “boom, power of the gods”. It is “less power, more technique”. Jiren himself states that Goku has not properly surpassed him in terms of power. He’s simply moving faster and better, thus managing to exploit openings with perfect timing.
This said, Goku is still a Super Saiyan capable of mastering the power of a god. So obviously there’s a difference between him and Roshi when using UI. Roshi is physically too weak to do more than evading some of Jiren’s attacks (and it would’ve been the same with Raditz), while Goku is more than strong enough to become a serious threat when UI channels his strength in a more effective way.
About martial arts in general... well, I’m no expert in real life, but at least for how they were presented in the DB world (mainly by Karin and Kami) they were always about finding inner calmness and purity. Which is what Ultra Instinct is about. And who says it can’t be accessed at will? It’s a state of mind, a feeling. Once you got a taste of it, with proper training you can learn to tap into it at will. Super Saiyan was introduced the same way, since it was a sort of divine power that awakened when the warrior lost control of his conscious self. And now Goku&Co access it consciously every five minutes.
The Cod The ToP in the manga was undoubtedly rushed and overall... well, bad, and the struggle it took Goku to get to UI would have deserved faaar more space and time. But technically it is there: the struggle was the entire battle with Jiren, during which he couldn’t tell why he couldn’t overcome the difference in power. Roshi merely gave him the final key to the solution, the last needed push. On the contrary, back on Namek, Vegeta’s dying speech only gave him the first factor needed to reach Ssj - the full acceptance of Goku’s Saiyan roots - while the second factor - a fit of uncontrollable rage - still wasn’t there.
Then, about the contradiction part: achieving the ability to tap into UI (and tap out of it) doesn’t mean you achieve control over your body while using it, which of course would be contradictory. It simply means you can voluntarily push your body into, or out of, that state. This doesn’t change the fact that your body will move on its own WHILE in the state.
And Roshi, well... I really can’t see your problem here. His VERY brief exchange of punches against Jiren is meant as a demonstration to Goku, nothing more. He’s not even using UI, he’s just moving in a way that reminds Whis of it. And Jiren was not fighting to kill. Had Roshi tried his “demonstration” against a truly vicious opponent like Nappa and Vegeta were back then, they would’ve slaughtered him on the spot. Plus, Goku would have done absolutely nothing with the UI principles back in Z, even if Roshi had given him some extra lessons sooner, since UI is a godly technique. Goku gained access to it only after discovering and mastering God ki. Prior to that, even if he had followed the principles of UI to the letter, he would’ve simply moved a bit better.
@@thecod2345 the anime did a shit job with introducing UI, imagine getting this broken ass power up where he STILL GETS HIT after mastering it for no FUCKING reason by falling into his attack. What fucking part of that leads to UI it actually would make more sense if he got another ssj form. Also no one talks about where he fucking went after the spirit bomb either. The manga doesn't do a good job with UI, it does a less shitty job
@@thecod2345 Didn't I literally just say that the manga did a less shit job, MY point is that him remembering EVERY teaching he forgot because of his pursuit of raw power was forgotten but roshi reminded him of that, now it should have taken him a lot longer to achieve or master it but so far him only lasting a few minutes in UI is better than in the anime where there was absolutely zero tension about wether he would lose. Cause "I'm out of stamina" really doest check out when he can still go ssb kaioken when he fucking feels like it. It was in asspull IN BOTH OF THEM
Or as one would say, "power levels are bullshit!".
It's clear that Jiren has more power, but after the first round, You can see that he developed respect towards Master Roshi. He went for a quick, clean and relatively weak hit to knock him out rather than the big, somewhat clumsy and massive attacks he usually uses.
thats what i kind of like about jiren, he’s a bit wasted but he respects those with skills
Not to mention, a big atk on a low power level could kill and he would be disqualified immediately
@@david95ms not really a problem considering roshi is at super saiyan 3 power here or somewhere close, for some reason
None of jirens attacks are clumsy.
@@theultimatetrashman887 the entire point here is that Roshi isn’t powerful, but he has a mastery of martial arts that lets him avoid attacks from people way stronger than himself. His attacks were like feathers to Jiren.
I like how Beerus called Roshi “old coot” when he’s thousands if not million years older than Roshi
i always love that funny comment with characters that live forever forgetting how old they are.
Gods have a longer life span so think of it this way
a dog at 20 human years would be a very old dog but 20 years for a human is young
it's just that beerus is young and not aged to be elderly yet because of his longer life span compared to a human
so in conclusion, beerus is like physically as old as like goku but because he's a god, being a adult means having around millions of years cause they age slower
Maturity doesnt only come from age, but also lifetime if that makes any sense. From Beerus perspective, 1000 years might felt like a day, and he only achieved this kind of "maturity" when he was considered old on his own race's lifetime.
When master roshi tells Gohan in freeza movie that he hasn't kept up with his training... This low key means roshi always trains... I used to always think of him at Dragonball level but I wonder how strong he really is
K.C. Kono he’s still weak this is technique
From forums I have read and the creators of dragon ball z they have confirmed we have never seen more than 50 pct of roshis true power reason he did not use it in super is imo he let his guard down a few times and drained his stamina
Muten Roshi doesn't have much strength but he overcomes opponents with technique hence his fights are interesting. UI Muten Roshi should he canon because as he said, Ultra Instinct isn't a power boost but a state of peaceful mind martial artists try to achieve so it's obvious that Muten Roshi is probably able to use it even if it's for few seconds. So while Muten Roshi is able to dodge Jiren's punches, he doesn't have the fire power to beat Jiren. This is how you do fights, strategy and techniques>>>>ridicolous, illogical power boosts
He could have killed frieza in dragon ball z.
In one episode of Super, they put Roshi vs Base Goku and confirmed that Roshi is training in secret
I activated my sharingan and kept up with the text.
Eww
Link fullSniperZ nigga what
I watch it at 2x speed.
Rigo The Poet I didn’t but still did 😎
Link fullSniperZ wtf lol wdym eww
Wow. Beerus thought Master Roshi attained Ultra Instinct. Even I did.
GamingwithCuyler6 to be fair he is basically the closest to mastering it, even if his power isn't that high
It's not the ultra instinct technique lol it's just Roshi's version of the flow technique in martial arts which is essentially "letting go" often associated with drunkenness opening the mind to ignore physical harm and have more fluid and less rigid movement. This is Roshi's version of the concept combined with martial arts
Soith 05 sounds a lot like ultra instinct to me, we don't even know anything about it besides what whis has mentioned. Fuck if toriyama or Toyotarou says so then roshi has super mega ultra instinct. Also that is the same thing as goku, martial arts and not making unnecessary movements
It’s in the same lane if might at well be some form of it but not close to the thing angels and destroyers use
@@ryanepps2183 it's a same ones U.I is the way that you let the mind go like the water in river it just like don't let your mind control your body let the body control themself
All master roshi do just like it the only way can reach to UI is exp about fighting in thier limited because saiyans don't have limited in thier power so they never think about the important of thier skill but roshi knows he already reaches his limited but he never stops trainning and he learns how to let it go don't like another human like tien krillin (yamacha like a younger version of roshi but he lost his way)
I think I speak for everyone... WHY THE F#!K WAS THIS NOT PUT IN THE ANIME!?!?!?
I swear
@@togucvinw7 so basically they just wanted publicity points?
Simple, To sell more manga.
@@Jexorz86 makes sense
@@yenee-chan8491 Same reason we got goku vs kefla while the manga had gohan fighting her. Which i was not a fan of kale or her voice actor but the two voices togeather as kefla were just fantastic in the japanese version.
Fans: We want Human characters to be relevant again!
Tori: makes roshi dodge some of jiren's punches
Fans: Boo, the power scaling is wack this is shit!! Booo!!
Maybe if it worked on somebody that wasn't, you know, Jiren of all people.
@@kyon9898 It obviously didn't if he still got floored by Jiren and taken out the tournament.
Litteraly says he still has a ways to go :/
i think its just funny hehe
If anything it doesnt show Roshis strength at all and doesnt ruin power scaling. You could be skinny and still dodge an athletes punch if you have the skills. Thats basically whats happening here. Roshi is simply dodging and not to mention Jiren was interested in what Goku's master could do
To be fair, there's lots of better ways to make them relevant again. Training them in special techniques, doing some storyline that allows humans to have special transformations, something like that. The way they made humans relevant again was just featuring them as they are, which I personally don't care about. I want to see some development from people besides saiyans, and even to let vegeta or Gohan advance and win the final battle for once. I think the featuring of Android 17 was fantastic tho
The one who truly has Ultra Instinct is the one who can read all the text before it dissapears.
Nice ima go became a god then
Did it in x2
me:
Roshi: "Look into your heart, Goku.
You will find the answer in there"
Goku: *Proceeds to stab himself and take his heart out of his chest to find the answer*
Wasn’t expecting that👁👄👁
Roshi: "...That boy ain't right."
Cringe as your pathetic and miserable life
@@mattiacicchetti4728 no u loser
Why almost everyone gets angry cuz of this?! I really like how manga gives some shine to old martial arts master and how he keeps up with few punches to show body movement to his student.
Most people are angry that it wasn't in the anime.
We're angry because Jiren should be so above Roshi that even with a facsimile of Ultra Instinct , he should get instantly demolished by Jiren. It made more sense to do what the anime did and have him beat reasonably more powerful foes with technique and wisdom .
@@KingNazaru He was demolished by Jiren he just dodged a few of his attacks before it happened though.
Cato Sicarius He shouldn’t have dodged them at all. The fact he did made it asinine.
@@KingNazaru The way I see it the old power level system of DBZ no longer really applies anymore.
Anyone who has trained with a real old martial arts master understands how well Master Roshi's character was written
Only martial artists such as ourselves really understand what this scene in the manga represents
People who get angry over this are kinda stupid, this is a great moment for Roshi and a valuable lesson for Goku.
And power scaling isn't ruined because of this, Roshi dodged a few attacks from Jiren because he's a great martial artist (probably one of the best in Universe 7) and used something simmilar to Ultra Instinct, Jiren got a bit angry, dodged his attack and knocked him out with a single chop.
This fight was the same as Beerus getting pushed a bit by angry Super Sayian 2 Vegeta, it's not because he was strong enough to do it, he just proved to be stronger than what Beerus anticipated and just like in this fight Beerus simply powers up a bit and knocks him out.
I would also like to toss in the possible explanation that Jiren, who in this iteration is hung up on his master, wanted to see what Goku's master was capable of.
Plus, Roshi's showing of Mu is direct foreshadowing of Goku using Ultra Instinct. Look at the 2. They dodge Jiren's attack, but once they go on the offense, they got knocked down. Ultra Instinct alone isn't the answer to beating Jiren.
roshi can never see a jiren punch coming. i love it when a manga does something silly and ya fanboys try to explain it away with things the writer aint even think of lol it has nothing to do with sense. its relevance. they wanted roshi to he relavant a bit again in super since he lost relevance ages ago lol
@@lionzcrown1702 Jiren still knocked him out with 1 hit and characters lowering their power has been established a long time ago.
In Tournament of Power killing wasn't allowed so Jiren was probably extra careful especially with Roshi.
@@lionzcrown1702 Idk what you're reading, but the author intentionally had Roshi shit on the notion that strength trumps technique (which a portion of the fanbase take issue with, since it makes powerscaling kinda pointless). Roshi criticized Goku's belief that what he needed to beat Jiren was more power by asking if Frieze and Vegeta taught him that- 2 characters that has never had a master teach them- and say that Goku was still as green as the day they met. He even mocks one of the Pride Troopers for judging him only by his low power level and not seeing "what lies underneath." Toyotaro and Toriyama (who has to approve the scripts used in the manga) are obviously sending the message that judging a character by how powerful they are is foolish and used the weakest character on Team U7 drive home the point. No one is making things up that the author themselves didn't put in the story. It's not even subtext. It's just text.
Toyotaro and Toriyama are simply saying "Powerlevels are bullshit." But instead of it being a one-liner, theyre following threw on it. It's why Moro's first act as a villain was rendering SSJ forms utterly useless against him.
x CEGold just remember that roshi shouldt be this fast or strong. He shouldnt be stronger that saiyan saga vegeta.
Jiren adjusted his power level to roshi so as not to accidentally kill him and get disqualified, but roshi's skill was such that even when jiren kept twice or thrice as strong and fast as him roshi could still predict him...
@Jerry Gonzales 🤣🤣
@Jerry Gonzales Well yeah. That's why this fandom is entertaining. That and the braindead arguments about arbitrary things. Like this video.
This nigga talkin bout "skill" lmao roshi dodging Jiren lmao
@@MillenniumEarl014 You think Roshi was dodging a serious Jiren?
That would be the biggest Roshi outlier feat ever given he has no feats that place him near a guy that was smacking around TOP SSB Goku unless you think Roshi is comparable to him in speed? any supporting evidence to back that claim?!
We'll this is the only theory I like out of all
"So there I was, back to back with Jesus."
Bible in one hand ak-47 on the other
Love this haha
@@lucs4543 ready to blast these thots with our divine sauce...
Where is that from?
I think the reason people had an issue with Roshi dodging Jiren's punches was they had this preconceived notion on how power should work in the series, where Toyotaro and Toriyama obviously disagree with it. You see it in the comments with people saying that Jiren by default should be so much faster than the speed of light. But as a writer, how do you depict this? How do you even write a story with that? Fights would take less then a second to happen. This whole fight was showing that things don't operate on that ridiculous scale and are actually much more grounded. Like TFS said, "power levels are bullshit". Toriyama and Toyotaro obviously agree and are trying to course correct.
@@JCMustang "some of Jiren's weaker punches were stronger than... 100% Death Ball, U7 Spirit Bomb,...etc"
This is exactly what I'm talking about. That. Is. Ridiculous. A punch is just a punch. A single punch from Jiren isnt destroying a planet. Also, if Gohan is so fast, why did it take him so long to dive in front of Vegeta and take the hit for him? The answer is because Toriyama isnt concerned with powerscaling. Logically, if these fights are at the speed of light, the moment the camera changes perspective, the fight would be over. This image of db that some people in the fandom has built is boring and nonsensical.
@UCpH5w1GfrPzv2xVLADwVuXw A word of advice: stop putting so much thought into the powerscaling of this series. Toriyama stopped caring about that YEARS ago and he arbitrarily boosts and lowers the strength of anyone he wants to as the story needs it . Like, Broly went from being toyed with by Base Vegeta to contending against 2 SSBs in a single fight. Not to mention 17 being able to contend with God level opponents for no discernible reason outside of "I trained" while 18 also kept up her training, but saw no boost in power. There is no rhyme or reason put into this. I promise you- to Toriyama, Toei, and Toyotaro- a punch from Jiren is just a strong punch. He's as fast as he needs to be for that moment and will be caught off guard by telegraphed attacks when the plot needs it. Powerscaling. Is. Stupid. That was the whole point of Roshi's speech to Goku when he said he needed more power to beat Jiren.
If Toriyama and Toyotaro had such a problem with power scaling, why did they continue this story on rotten foundations and not just do a soft reboot with new characters and explain how the world of Dragonball's physics work? Hunter x Hunter, Jojo, Kimetsu no Yaiba all explain how their world's rule when it comes to how fighting works. DBS is so high off the ground when it comes to suspension of disbelief that people can't even see the floor anymore.
@@USMC49er I believe that world building isn't a particular strong suit of Toriyama's. I mean, look at the Dragonball World and Universe and compare it to worlds like One Piece. How has the world changed since the Red Ribbon Army's antics back in Dragonball? How has the introduction of Ki seen in the Buu Saga's Martial Arts Tournament affected the world? Gohan got outed as the Great Saiyaman AND the Golden Fighter, how has that changed his work, social, and private life? The moment Toriyama stepped out of the planet and into the infinite expanse of Space, he introduced us to THE strongest guy there and had out heroes beat him. Then look at One Piece- when Luffy beat Crocodile, that had consequences across the world. The world in One Piece changes due to events. Dragonball's world is horribly tiny in comparison to works such as the ones you've listed, since it didn't really change from Dragonball to Super. In the Buu Saga, Videl thought Ki was a trick like her father told her until Gohan showed her, despite Ki being used in Martial Arts tournaments for decades and has been a thing in the world as far back as Roshi's days as a student. That's why I think rebooting it and expanding it's world wasn't on the table with him. It's not an area he's comfortable in.
So the next best thing is to try and fix the problem with the powerlevels in the series. Master Roshi's UI is based off the very real Mu in martial arts. It's why Beerus was shocked at the similarites. Mu is to humans what Ultra Instinct is to Gods. Roshi's showing also does 2 things:
1. It shows that weaker characters can be useful regardless of how small their number may be.
2. It foreshadows Goku's confrontation with Jiren. Right down to the moment Roshi went in to attack, he's knocked out. In the same chapter, Goku did the same thing and got put on his ass by Jiren.
We see this being applied in the Moro Arc. Moro's power made the old paradigm absolutely useless. Goku and Vegeta powering up and achieving a new transformation would just make Moro stronger. It's why the comparably weaker Majin Buu had a chance thanks to the Fat Kai being dormant in him. Even in the training they're doing, it's not so much about increasing their powerlevels as it is about discovering new techniques and new ways of thinking.
Think about it, when they got confronted with Broly, how did they beat him? By fusing and making their number bigger than his. They didn't sniff out a potential weak spot of his or find a way to calm him down. They beat him the same way they've beaten all of their villains: become stronger and punch really, really hard or throw a strong blast. Moro is being built up to be beaten by ingenuity and wit. At least, that's what it appears to be so far.
Besides, I don't think a soft reboot would be as universally praised as you may think. Look at Dragonball Minus, for example. It changed Bardock's backstory that even Toriyama praised and made the comparisons between Goku and Superman even more blatant, which some in the community despises. I think it's best at this point to course correct and let the past be the past.
@Thomas Houghton Why tf are you so butthurt?
Anime: Goku gets ultra instinct because yes
Manga: *epic Master Roshi ultra instinct based in more than 100 years of training*
Anime:Goku gets ultra instinct because he's the main character
Manga:Goku finally learns from the teachings of all his master's and with one final lesson and showing from his original master he is able to obtain ultra instinct
neverunknown that’s a dumb explanation, by that logic then there was no point in training from Z to super. That means goku could’ve got ultra instinct back in dragon ball....
More than 100 years of training but he couldn’t even put up a fight against piccolo, but then all of a sudden can dodge punches from someone that’s stronger than a god of destruction. This fight is such a fucking asspull
@@Samir-rd8xp dude what's your problem with this fight at least in the manga we have a reason for Goku getting it and I don't know what you have aginst master roshi but dude chill let him have a moment
Lets be fair
If you combined both explanations
Manga/ anime you will have a decent fact
But separatly both are wack
“Bruh they made master roshi too overpowered in the anime”
Manga: I’m about to give him a career
Eminem: Had to give you a career to destroy it
Thing is, in the anime they just gave Roshi (and every other B lister) a massive power boost to be as strong as Goku, here it shows that while Roshi isn't able to punch as hard, he doesn't need to
I love this so much! Honestly, this is what Super was missing. Goku's journey was not just about power. His real strength didn't come just because of alien genetics from a race of warriors. Yes, his heritage obviously helps him stand out (Vegeta too). His blood gives him the ability to tap into power that no human can but that was never the point of Dragon Ball. Well, not originally at least. Goku's journey and accomplishments were built upon his experiences, his lessons and the people met, places he's been to. The real discipline it takes to be a martial artist isn't based on the strongest kei blast or how much you can flex in a single punch. It's a mastery only truly accomplished by discipline of your complete self, externally, internally and spiritually. Super needed scenes like this, and while what we got was good; it's still a far shot from greatness. This is perfect, and it even tied in all of everything that was lost with Z.
Still one of the best decisions in the manga, fight me. It very clearly/firmly set the tone for the direction UI takes in the manga as opposed to the anime's "same old spectacle power boost", As well as how the rest of the arcs will tackle more then just "More raw angry power >>> anything else" and will incorporate more styles/strategy.(while still staying true to traditional dbz, and keeping the importance of power gaps being a factor)
Facts
Ah yes, the most powerful being in all universes VS Jiren.
I think we all know who's winning here.
This comment is pure gold
Wait s sec. Mr. Popo was not in the tournament what are you saying?
Roshi never loses. He simply decides when he's had enough.
Yamcha isn’t here tho
@@tacomeat5689 oh who cares about Yamacha we need UI Shaggy here he would one shot everyone with 1% power
I like this more than the anime when he got the UI because of spirit bomb like wtf. This is beautiful they did a tribute to goku s masters and what they taught him. And that's how he got ui amazing. Thanks toyotaro
Where as I love both tbh..roshi is just 🔥🔥
But in anime, he did not attain UI by spirit bomb exactly.. it was because of battling the spirit bomb when he was almost exhausted.. Indicating that when he stops thinking and working on instinct it will be something entirely different.
Plus he had been training with whis for so long exactly for UI. So both are justified.
Same
Well this is the only thing Toyotaro did right in the ToP arc. Everything else is just pure bullsht.
@@kevzzzzzz He did the female Saiyans right and Gohan.
@@jasonone8726 I'm going to guess that you are joking because those are things that were absolute shit.
This basically implies that everything since dragon ball led to goku attaining ultra instinct
I always love those moments when MC reflects on what their teachers have said to them, it really shows that they have come a long way, and that the basics are always important
2:30 Somebody dropped a beat
I actually prefer this version of events over how the anime interpreted it. It adds to the depth of development between Goku and Roshi, demonstrates that Roshi can't compete with power levels but is still a martial arts wizard, and that the ominous and mysterious events of the anime concerning Goku taking on the Spirit Bomb's energy is redacted for a simpler harkening back to Dragon Ball's roots.
This part in the manga was mind blowing
You could argue that jiren held back to measure roshi, and he obviously beat roshi with one punch
It was more about teaching Goku a lesson
Of course, Jiren is superior in strength and speed. Roshi was just making a point to show how to move, he's one of the greatest martial artist we've ever seen and probably top 5. He's capable of moving so amazingly that it made Beerus think it was UI and Whis even says that its very close
@@JustYTWatching roshi is def 1 of the goats.
If jiren kills roshi he will be disqualified
Calvin Nathaniel.K exactly
A lot of people are upset due to power scaling, but it's been established that does not enough to win fights.
Like in a fighting game, rather than reacting, what Roshi is doing is predicting, it's hard to react to frames that come out within a 10th or a 5th of second. So Roshi immediately dodges before Jiren throws the punch. And even then he still got grazed and even ultimately lost pretty easily.
And eventhough he struggled against Piccolo before, he never stopped training since then, he even commented on how Gohan is starting to slack of on his training; And him showing a new technique just shows that he is constantly training and trying to better himself.
It's a shame they didn't include this in the anime because roshi would be "Too Op"
I mean it's kinda bs Roshi would even pull this off on Jiren of all people.
@@triple-d2640 How? All he did was dodge a few of Jiren's attacks only to then to be ringed out without having made a scratch on him. If a housefly can do that to normal ass people, then a dude using a move literally named *"ultra instinct"* can sure as hell do it too
@@triple-d2640 You realize how old Master Roshi is. I know those people are probably older than Roshi, don't get me wrong but Master Roshi has martial arts and since that age he's still training as a human. And of course he would get this strong, oh and he is aware of those statements to Goku as well? How? Well those decades for him wasn't spend for nothing. It's a shame that Roshi got knocked at the end.
@@DevilMarioProductions master Rosie's age doesn't affect anything, his body will remain the same that way for as long as he lives. im sure if he just gave up on fighting forever he'd outlive goku
The anime was ahead of the manga in super
Audience: There’s no way Roshi is strong enough to do that!
Muten-Roshi: And who says I’m doing this with “strength”, eh?
And this is why I am pissed at myself not reading up all the manga from DB all the way to DBS. This actually almost made me cry. Thanks for sharing JY!
People fotgot this is an immortal man who mastered over 1000 techniques, spells, and charms, who defended Earth for hundreds of years before Goku came, who only stopped fighting after making sure Goku can do it. He lives alone. What do you think he does every day? He surpassed his limits in every way, to the point he could fake UI... that alone shows his love for the martial arts.
Roshi: "Sheesh, Goku. Is it all about power with you?"
Also Roshi: "Well boys, the secret to the Turtle School IS the hard work you've been doing. Without realizing it you've pushed your bodies far beyond their limits. I have nothing left to teach you."
Roshi knew he didnt stand a chance in hell
He wasnt fighting to win
He was trying to show goku what he needed to do
You never stop learning
And i personally think that a good teacher never runs out of things to teach
I would have liked it if it was literally anyone from another universe but for it to be Jiren who could have speed blitz Goku from the start of the arc. I can't take power scaling serious anymore
@@romallohenry5700Yea because Goku was way more predictable than Roshi at the time.
Roshi was simply acting way before Jiren made his moves.
It's even reinforced in the superhero arc; With Vegeta realizing Jiren was not waaay stronger than them. Jiren had better technique and control over his ki than them. Superheroes was being written even before the Broly movie.
"And my master's as good a teacher as ever." I feel touched by this line because Goku finally remember how much his master did for him (which seemingly he long forgot) great plot line I don't care if it is Canon. Great plot
It is canon though it's the bloody manga
lmao, as canon as it gets 🤣
Jiren: WHY IS THIS OLD MAN SO FAST
Edit: Should clarify I meant that jiren said that in the tone of that one vine where that guys high, one of 2 links right here
m.ruclips.net/video/Xal-7X729ps/видео.html
m.ruclips.net/video/oHg5SJYRHA0/видео.html
Cause he master roshi
Toriyama: because I want him too😊
He's not fast. He just knows what a novice like Jiren is going to do before he even does it. The whole premise is that Roshi is such an experienced martial arts master, he starts dodging Jirens attack before even Jiren knows how he's going to attack.
Toku lmfao 🤣🤣
Jiren was clearly suppressed given he's just confused.
It's like saying Captain America actually kept Thanos hand open, nah Thanos was just suppressed and shocked at the persons defiance/will rather than there actually being a challenge.
Jiren was holding back to a massive degree and was surprised this old man was dodging his >1% attacks, then he got a little more serious once the novelty wore off and chopped Roshi.
"Fighting power? Who taught you that? Freeza?" Best roshi quote.
Master roshi got a lower form of ultra instinct called “instict”
no he got "super instinct"
Basic Instinct*
I like the idea that his experience and skill naturally gives him minor Ultra Instinct-style techniques
Don’t care what people say this makes ultra instinct feel more interesting then goku getting smacked by the spirit bomb for no reason
I love the idea that even though Goku is such a good fighter, he was always held back from his true potential because his saiyan biology just carried him in fights with pure stats. This was a great way to return to form from early DragonBall and I really hope that Toyotaro can fix this up
Damn I wish the anime would've gone this route it would've looked great
This was perfectly handled, liked this better than the anime
2:05 jiren: why do I hear ultra instinct music?
Wish there was any kind of music lmao
I think it would make sense if roshi had ultra instinct. It wouldn’t make his power skyrocket but it would make him a much better fighter. Roshi is one of the most intelligent martial artists in the show and he could have very well learned how to use the technique himself. But since he’s human he’d still be too weak to fight jiren.
Jiren:My baldness is unmatched!!
Master Roshi: Goku, Hold my book.
U mean porn mag
@@MrSpardas No, he means the bible and an ak in the other arm
@@alinastanescu4430 a little too american
@@alinastanescu4430 and he was back to back with Jesus.
Love it when the original characters get some shine. Maybe one day we'll see a respectable return of the wolf fang fist...
A move that was never useful lol
@Jessie 992 lol maybe not but it was cool as hell!
@@j04370859 lol sure
This is easily one of my favorite parts of the manga
The lorax vs jiren
Topo is the lorax, don't you know that?
\Ò_Ó/
NADATEEEE
"Hurt the trees, I break your knees"
Roshi: I'm the Lorax and I speak for the trees"
Jiren: What?
Master Roshi was just predicting jirens movements basically before jiren thought of them, and made no mistakes since he couldn’t afford them. With his mind and body acting multiple steps before jirens that’s how he closed the enormous power gap and also probably because jiren couldn’t go to hard as to not kill roshi
Roshi deserves his honor, even though I guess Jiren had to hit slower not to kill the old Master.
Still it's impressive for a human being to get to that point!
Ifritlordofire yeah. Even if jirren was at .001% that’s like destroying the galaxy strong. Probably stronger then majin buu
@@sharkt9877 bruh
@@sharkt9877 bruh
@@sharkt9877 thats just disrespectful man
I actually love roshi having a power like ultra instinct a mastery of martial arts after living so long it’s understandable that he would know the concept as eventually achieve a power like it it’s stupid when people say “why does Roshi have it that’s so dumb”
Jiren:Your master still has lessons to teach you
Goku : atleast I'm not bald like your teacher
No matter the criticizing, master roshi is one of the greatest teachers in dragon ball.
I love Roshi’s fighting style and how quick and nimble it is, taking advantage of his small body mass.
Why wasn’t this in the anime? Could’ve been Roshi’s most badass moment!
I like this because it shows Ultra Instinct isn't gained with great power alone, but you need a state of mind that comes from a rich martial arts experience, adjusting your "flow" to your opponent and removing emotion from your actions. Roshi can't fully attain it because he's missing the power of beings like angels and GoDs who attain a greater version of this
Wish this was in the anime, last badass Roshi moment didn't happen for a long time
We still had great Roshi moments, in the anime version.
This was beautiful. Thank goodness this is the definitive canon
Bro imagine if Roshi wished to keep his wisdom but retain his youth.....
*The main character would be Roshi*
Isn't roshi like 400 years old
@@deac-hd2lo Years can't measure Roshi's age and experience.
@@sailorquestion3229 Still he is no saiyan = he will never be as strong as goku.
@@gamersforlife3440 well why not jiren also isnt a saiyan.
@@xPumy09HD1 Dude he is human jiren is not LOL
The reason Jiren missed a couple times was because he held back even more. Remember that killing still isnt allowed so if Jiren accidentally killed Roshi he would be disqualified. And with Roshi using an unpredicted movement technique it made it difficult for Jiren to anticipate when holding back so much.
So because Jiren was holding back in strength he was holding back in speed?
@@mr.matrix4082 he was probably holding back on speed too
@Jacky Chen yeah that would make alot more sense, and people are so salty but they don't realize that there is an easy explanation for this chapter
@@bmariano1879 Why would he do that? I can't think of 1 solid reason he would hold back in speed
@@mr.matrix4082 probably wanted to go easy on Roshi
They should have left this in anime as well
It makes sense for Goku to learn the only thing he was missing for ultra instinct transformation from his master
this came out AFTER the anime
HOW DID THIS NOT MAKE IT IN THE ANIME!? This actually kinda makes Jirens character a little less op. Like what? Roshi giving goku a little lesson like old times, this right here feels like dragon ball. You have a God of destruction and an angel impressed with this old man. This would have slapped as a scene in the anime.
"Wait, is that Roshi fighting against Jiren?"
"Uh, yeah."
"Well either I'm in a delusional coma or..."
"Or?"
"POWER LEVELS ARE BULLSHIT!"
Well killing aint allowed so he gotta hold back u know?
Power Levels have always been bullshit
i read somewhere that master roshi was at perfect cell level XD
@@alex_dc800 now thats bs... if i remember correctly perfect cell was at a threat level that even the namekians from a planet far from earth sensed him... roshi however is nothing but a good martial artist with techniques but his power level is... wait now that i think about it that mafuba seems to be very dangerous even to zamasu
Wait h
I don't get why people get mad about that particular thing.
First of all, master Roshi didn't defeated Jiren, so it had almost no effect for the battle as a whole, master didn't even hurt Jiren.
Second, i love when they give old characters that got "defeated by the scouters" some love, really Master Roshi and Picolo are both such great characters, both fan favorites and very important, so it's hurts my heart knowing that they are nothing but trash compared to the new characters and Goku + Vegeta.
What i meant by "defeated by the scouters"? The greatest fighting animes whe had (and Dragon Ball is not one of the greatest fighting wise), all of them had something named "surprise factor", like Hunter x Hunter, if that anime was lead only by the numbers (It have numbers, but as Knuckle said, they mean nothing), we would obviously think that Pitou could have easily slaughtered everybody from the invasion team, because she had higher reserves of power than they had, but as Hunter x Hunter is not actualy guided by numbers, the invasion team had the oportunity to play smart, or on Gon's case he was more determined to kill Pitou than she was determined to stay alive and protect her king, the numbers just didn't had any meaning, because the stronger character had some serious chances of dying just like the "weaklings". But when Dragon Ball introduced the "scouter" thing, they also gave the fans the oportunity not to judge things by their own thoughts, and only accept that one character had higher numbers than others, and after that got stablished, master Roshi would never be able to even touch enemies like Buu and Cell, even knowing he was far more more experienced than any of those. Obviously some cases would not have changed, but because of some hierarchy of power, like Beerus against Roshi, that would be a diferent situation.
What they made with Roshi vs. Jiren, for me was basicaly an apology for that whole scouters thing, because even Roshi, an earthly human was able to face and show what he's made of in front of one of the biggest monsters we had on that tournament.
For me, an anime was not suposed to be made of battles that gets decided even before they begin, it completely ruins the experience and expectations we could have had. Honestly it doesn't talk directly about numbers, but inderectly, like the fact that Goku and Vegeta are training lifting gazilions of tons in weight (something that makes no sense but ok), or when they talk about propotions, like when Picolo say that he could not be able to help Goku and Vegeta against Broly (that moment hurt me so bad, poor Picolo).
Dragon Ball have since long became an anime made for kids, i think since the beginning of the Super anime.
It just don't have any blood, and the excuse that "all the characters are just too strong to bleed" isn't valid at all, when you look into the anime, we had lots of some white spots that were suposed to be filled by blood, but since a buncha kids are watching it they decided to take it out, I was like 5 yo when i first watched Freeza torturing Vegeta, and guess what? For me that scene was fucking awesome, but it looks like kids are fucking mentaly weak today. CMON DUDE, ZAMAZU STABED GOKU AND 2 MINUTES AFTER HE WAS COMPLETELY FINE LIKE WTF, HE'S STRONG BUT DUDES STILL NEED HIS FUCKING ORGANS.
They are still giving Goku some new fancy hair colors (that we all know, later on they are completely going to lose their meaning, getting replaced by others), hair colors that only have the goal of selling cards and figures, and the ones that are responsible for Dragon Ball beign completely flooded by Deus ex Machina moments, when the character is at his last forces and sudenly some hidden unknown power magicaly becomes awaken, giving the character the exact amount of power he needed to defeat his curent opponent, but obviously not his next ones, because you know they need new material to sell some stuff after.
That's all my criticism about Dragon Ball, and don't get me wrong i love that anime, i grew up watching it, but after waiting some decades i think that the Super anime is just commiting the same mistakes that other seasons had, and some of them even worse, that's so disappointing.
I would love to see Dragon Ball beign the ultimate anime, but it have just gone too far to be able to fix it's mistakes.
The manga is just doing Dragon Ball legacy some justice, of course it's not perfect, while it have fixed some old isues it have created some new ones, but since it's some recent shit i think they still have time to get to the right spot.
No cap this shit would’ve made more sense than how Goku achieved UI in less than 40 minutes
really shows why he is called "Master" .. old school Dragon Ball roots here, pure martial arts mindset
i mean i rlly liked the fact that roshi jumped off by himself and gained respect from beerus in the anime
but this scene in the manga is rlly cool too. it just shows the great wisdom of old age that master roshi has
I prefer this than Goku getting UI in anime because it shows all his training has come to this moment and shows roshi’s skills
Okay so here's the thing...roshi is taking us back to the old days of Dragonball. *You have to rely on your moves and techniques to defeat your opponent or just standing up to them rather than having a huge power level.*
True
the reason why muten roshi was able to dodge jiren's attack is he knew where jiren is going to attack even before jiren started moving lol
And that's when Roshi unlocked Ultra Instinct....
Not really sure but they said that Roshi is the closest one to Ultra Instinct(besides goku, beerus, and whis) in universe 7, welp I can't really deny it, he's a really skilled martial artist
Hello hello whis has it doe
Whis has ultra instinct
It's a flow technique not ultra instinct lol. Whis outright said it wasn't ultra instinct :/
*_BESIDES_* Goku, Beerus and *Whis*
honestly, i'd say he's closer than beerus as well
I don't care what anyone says, this was a cool moment and a great way to introduce Ultra Instinct
The man who invented the kamehameha wave would we expect any less
I love that the manga does everyone so much more justice in the tournament of power, despite the fact that tien and krillin were knocked out swiftly by frost
I mean, Its a good tactic, throw to Jiren the weakest being you find so every hit it takes is a deathly one. So you win by disqualification. Brilliant
luis pastor but they didn’t bother to ask yamcha
they probably regret not having Yamcha on their team
Imagine Roshi having a younger body and in his prime + using the pseudo UI, he can probably match Jiren here.
Nope
Your presentation of this is awesome.
Honestly I’ll say I like the way he chooses to fall off in the anime more than the manga, and that’s saying a lot considering how well the manga usually plays out compared to the anime. I like the exchange between Vegeta and Roshi, even Roshi is indirectly teaching Vegeta while also being the noble old geezer he’s known to be. Roshi really is amazing, he really carried his weight in the tournament of power.
He also saves Vegeta, without him they definitely would’ve lost, he finished Toppo after all while 17 and Frieza were essentially out of commission
I think the lesson in this is that power and strength are 2 very different things
Albertosn3 i think you power skill and speed are all different things
It's things like this that make me appreciate DBS. It's almost like they acknowledged that much of the DBZ era was just power ups and ki blasts. Ssj just get mad, ssj2 just get more mad, ssj3 off screen. But ssj blue was about controlling ki red the same but for speed. Ultra instinct is about clearing your mind.
Super has done a good job mixing power ups with martial arts.
Going back to Roshi teaching Krillin and Goku all that yard work and delivering milk was about discipline to work everyday.
Bojack Horseman has an applicable quote. "Every day it gets a little easier. But you have to do it everyday, that's the hard part."
This is awesome
Absolutely love that DBS still made old characters relevant. Roshi knew he could never have a chance against Jiren, he sacrificed his spot on the tournament to continue teaching Goku.
WHERE THE HELL WAS THIS IN THE ANIME!? This is actually a great scene! A lesson from Goku's first teacher that helps him piece together what he needs to achieve ultra instinct, calling back to a fundamental part of the spirit of martial arts! If there was more of this in Super maybe I'd actually be able to get into it!
People upset by this skipped Dragonball and started at "Z".
I've missed the days of the great Muten Roshi
So damn good!
He’s so god damn cool!
Nice reference lol
I wish we had this in the anime that would have looked amazing and got a lot more attention
More attention? Not sure about that lol
I wish this was in the anime, it would have been a great opportunity to have goku grow as a character for some of us who dont read the manga much
I wish this had been in the anime, but at the same time I also loved master roshi's episodes that aired. Both of them made him feel special again for the first time in a long time. So either the anime or the manga, both made roshi dope again just like he was when I was a kid.
actually i think they could of fit this seen in if he didnt give up in the top
i could see how it would work.
I love how despite the ungodly power gap using good old experience master Roshi was still able to hold his own for a bit atleast