It also had to do with aircraft type. Akagi and Kaga were going to send Type 97s (B5N) for the first wave, while Hiryu and Soryu were going to send type 99s (D3A). In which Type 97s needed to be fueled and armed with torpedoes in the hangar deck, while the Type 99s were armed (bombs) and fueled on the flight deck-let's keep that in mind for now, because of the rearmament order from the so called Nagumo's Dilemma would only affect Type 97s, because they had to be finished preparing in hangar decks, while the Type 99s would be prepared on the flight decks regardless of their missions, therefore still unarmed during rearm order. So, it's possible that Soryu and Hiryu could start spotting their strike aircrafts anytime they wanted, while Akagi and Kaga had to wait for their Type 97s to be finished rearming. With that said, it's probable to say that the 2nd carrier division had a huge lead when it came to preparing their strike packages due to their aircraft type, and don't forget that Akagi and Kaga were both old ships, their facilities were not as efficient as their newer counterpart, i.e. slower elevators and less optimized overall layout. That's why Hiryu could lauch her strike pretty quick (for the first counterstrike wave). After this is my own speculation, so prepare for some schizo; because 2nd CarDiv required their flight decks for preparation, therefore, both of them would not be operational for recovering any aircrafts at all for some time, which meant any emergencies occured to their CAP would end up in ditches, or some other flight decks. So yeah, the Japanese had 2 aircraft carriers that needed to use flight deck for preparing their aircrafts before they could be launched (Soryu & Hiryu), while other 2 needed to prepare all their aircrafts in their hangars and then spotted and launched (Akagi & Kaga). And there were like... 42 CAP fighters in the sky (dunno, probably around that)? With a hand being dealt like that: A) 2nd CarDiv probably were not going to wait for 1st CarDiv to finish rearming all of their Type 97s just for them to wait for they to arming their Type 99s. B) 42 CAP fighters were lots of aircrafts, risking ditching them during the battle was too huge of a compromise for the rest of the operation. With all that, I could see why Soryu's and Hiryu's flight decks would be packed with aircrafts during the Dauntless strike, and why Kaga might have some aircrafts on deck, while Akagi's flight deck would be mostly empty.
THANK YOU for your dedication and attention to details and facts. I admire and appreciate the quality of your channel. I've been reading books about or including Midway since 1973. Circular second-hand references are common. Further, as an adult I was employed doung security and investigation, and I was stunned at how much first-hand accounts could completely be at odds and also disagree with video and physical evidence. I think your concluding remarks are gold; it doesn't matter whether the aircraft were on deck; all sources and logic agree that they were fueled and armed. Whether they were on deck, in transit, or in the hangars is immaterial. They got hit, they went BOOM, they caused fires, the carriers were mortally wounded.
The authors of Shattered Sword say that our pilots and gunners who referenced aircraft on the flight decks were telling "lurid tales" for which they can be "forgiven". It's worth pointing out that Leslie was a 40- year- old squadron commander, while McClusky was 40- year- old air group commander. Flinging dirt into the faces of men who risked their lives to gain that victory by claiming that the men in question were exaggerating despite abundant evidence to the contrary (and then 'forgiving them') makes it matter, particularly since these men are no longer around. It's also worth remembering that the author's claim that their primary source (Senshi Sosho) is an official history is untrue. It was neither commissioned nor endorsed by the Japanese government. It in fact represents the predominant views of Japanese veterans, and not historians. In the volume covering Midway for example, much of the responsibility for their defeat is cast onto the shoulders of a petty officer (the pilot of Tone's Scout #4) for initially failing to identify carriers in the U.S. formation, even though he flew outside of his zone to detect them by luck. Meanwhile, the pilot whose flight path took him right over the U.S. carriers without spotting them (an who happened to be a graduate of Eta Jima) got a pass.
The essence of the study of history is a search for truth. With that in mind, I can only say of this video what I've said of 'all' of your videos- WELL DONE.
I think that the point made in 'Shattered Sword' is not that the fighters needed a full flight deck to take off, it is that the CAP had frequent landings and the back of the flight deck had to be clear. The flight deck records are pretty hard to rebut. The Japanese were preparing their planes for attack, but, below decks in the hangar.
@@stephennewton2223 I'll try and touch my point as simply as I can here to prevent confusion. The presentation in this video and shattered Sword is not about the A6M needing a full flight deck to take off, it's a smaller topic within a greater picture. Shattered Sword says "Nor should it be assumed that there were no aircraft whatsoever on the Japanese flight decks at 10: 20......these aircraft were mostly, if not entirely, Zeros....." Those sentences are why I mention the odd assertion that Zeros were waiting for takeoff at the after end of the flight deck. While the book doesn't outright say that, it's implied as It's attempting to address the countless accounts of aircraft positioned at the after flight decks. It's a very odd assumption. The landing times are also odd pieces to fully rely on because of 2 major points: 1) In the case of Soryu, it had nearly 35 minutes between the final landing and being bombed, Akagi had about 15 minutes. As I say in the video, I'm comfortable settling that Akagi had virtually nothing on its flight deck as everything available says so. But Kaga, Soryu, and hiryu are different. 2) Shattered Sword attempts to close the subject of Soryu, hiryu, and Kaga's half hour windows by saying they launched fighters in that duration, which is correct. However, launching does not require the last half of the flight deck when dealing with the Zero. So the timetable still provided the Japanese (excluding Akagi) with roughly 30 minute windows to take aircraft from the hangars to the flight deck. The forward elevators would have been out of service while launching, but the bombers used the central and after elevators, making it completely possible. That is the primary point of the video.
@@centralcrossing4732 It seems to me that they were in active defense and had to leave the decks clear to land CAP fighters who needed to rearm. This would preclude spotting a strike. The time may allow one of the carriers to do this, but, it would require advance knowledge that there would be no more attacks to defend against. Seems unlikely.
@@stephennewton2223 That is a potential argument, and the one Shattered Sword greatly relies on. However, it doesn't obliterate the long list of primary sources that state otherwise from both US and Japanese accounts of the battle. It still fails to explain Hiryu's counterstrike starting launch at 10: 50 when we know it still operated CAP by 10: 13. The books own arguments would suggest it needed to start raising aircraft to the flight deck no later than 10: 05. My purpose behind the video is not to be the dominant factor on the topic, but to demonstrate that there is a very real alternative to Shattered Sword that I think we collectively ignore too easily.
Excellent video. Shattered Sword is quoted a lot when it comes to the battle of Midway. Your video is a great example of how even a very good source can be wrong in some cases. That you for your hard work.
Another thought: Japanese doctrine was to launch half of their aircraft at a time. So even if they had managed to get first wave of planes to the deck, there still would have been about half below decks, presumably fueling and arming.
From other carrier battles, the time difference of attacks from the first and second waves would probably be the equivalent of the time it took to bring the second wave up to the deck and launch.
Interesting topic and aspects. I would add that Soryu did launch at least one of the D4Y Judy Scout Planes prior to the SBD attack. I cannot recall if and when Soryu and Hyriu might have also rearmed their aircraft for sea action. IIRC they had prepared their strike for follow up strikes on Midway. Akagi and Kaga had strike aircraft armed for sea action, then switched after the various Scout #4 reports. At some point I imagine Carrier Division #2 would have also had rearmed their Vals and Kates with anti-ship weaponry. Tone Scout #4 confirmed at least one US Carrier which of course caused the confusion in the Kido Butai. All very interesting.
A very well thought out and articulated argument, deserving of serious thought, and further debate. For what it's worth, you have my respect for your efforts, and your objective views.
I read Shattered Sword and (good book), the actual battle is about 6 pages out of 600 pages. I learned every single solitary detail about the lives and careers of every pilot on both sides it seems. I have since forgotten everything. But I do remember enjoying the book.
Been watching since this channel was named Yamato30. Love the content. So I have a few suggestions. 1. In the future you could make videos about what changes you would make to a certain ship. 2. You could create a fictional ship or ask viewers to submit their own ship designs and then make a video giving those ships history.
@@No-dy3zk I replied to this comment already, but it appears that my comment didn't send for some reason. Just in case it's not an error on my end, I wanted to make another response. I like your suggestions and I think they will make excellent video topics. I've already got a few ships I would change in mind for your first topic.
@@centralcrossing4732 Ya I only got the notification for this reply. It seems youtube is just being youtube again lol. Thank you for taking the time to reply. Another suggestion I just had is maybe try covering space shuttles or some space related stuff.
@@centralcrossing4732 These are good suggestions. I got some as well 1. You could also cover much older ships like medieval or ancient ships. 2. Maybe cover some stuff like the evolution of a navy through out it's existence 3. I know 2 other youtubers covered this already but you could also talk about ships going from wooden sailing ships up to ships of the 20th century.
there is a bit of indesputable evidence that the strike was on deck, ready to go. hiryu launched it's strike quickly enough to follow vb-3 back to the yorktown arriving just as vb-3 was entering the landing pattern. the cruising speed of a loaded val dive bomber was almost the same as that of an unloaded dauntless. there is no way that could have happened if the strike was not ready to go. kudos for going against the wave of revisionist history.
I am surprised there are no pictures of the damaged Akagi, Kaga, and Soryu carriers from the Japanese side. I think there is a picture from damaged Hiryu. And a drawing of what wrecked Kaga looked like in the book Shattered Sword.
There are a few seconds of film from aboard Akagi after she was hit and while fire- fighting was still in progress. I do mean "seconds", at least as far as I'm aware.
The first wave of the "grand scale attack" that Nagumo planned was the original reserve force that he had retained after launching the strike on Midway. Kaga was in the process of moving hers to her flight deck and had approximately 20 or so of the 27 slated on the flight deck. Few of them were spotted however because she had last landed aircraft at approximately 1005. Soryu and Hiryu both had theirs on their flight decks. They had last landed aircraft much earlier and had more than enough time to spot theirs. Akagi's first wave was still in her hangars as she had six fighters on deck about to launch. Lieutenant Best saw these begin to launch as he was diving on Akagi. The second wave of the "grand scale attack" was the original Midway strike force and was in the hangars of the carriers undergoing the process of rearming and refueling.
@@FredKuramura I didn't say I hadn't heard of it. I think it's impossible to not hear of it. I just never read it. I don't have to read every single production on a topic to study the topic.
@@FredKuramura possibly, but I do like just using as many primary sources as possible, which Shattered Sword is not. Even without using Shattered Sword, my videos covering the losses of Akagi, Kaga, and Soryu agreed heavily with the conclusions drawn in Shattered Sword. Just because I haven't read a book you think I should have doesn't make me bad at what I do.
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It also had to do with aircraft type.
Akagi and Kaga were going to send Type 97s (B5N) for the first wave, while Hiryu and Soryu were going to send type 99s (D3A).
In which Type 97s needed to be fueled and armed with torpedoes in the hangar deck, while the Type 99s were armed (bombs) and fueled on the flight deck-let's keep that in mind for now, because of the rearmament order from the so called Nagumo's Dilemma would only affect Type 97s, because they had to be finished preparing in hangar decks, while the Type 99s would be prepared on the flight decks regardless of their missions, therefore still unarmed during rearm order. So, it's possible that Soryu and Hiryu could start spotting their strike aircrafts anytime they wanted, while Akagi and Kaga had to wait for their Type 97s to be finished rearming.
With that said, it's probable to say that the 2nd carrier division had a huge lead when it came to preparing their strike packages due to their aircraft type, and don't forget that Akagi and Kaga were both old ships, their facilities were not as efficient as their newer counterpart, i.e. slower elevators and less optimized overall layout. That's why Hiryu could lauch her strike pretty quick (for the first counterstrike wave).
After this is my own speculation, so prepare for some schizo; because 2nd CarDiv required their flight decks for preparation, therefore, both of them would not be operational for recovering any aircrafts at all for some time, which meant any emergencies occured to their CAP would end up in ditches, or some other flight decks.
So yeah, the Japanese had 2 aircraft carriers that needed to use flight deck for preparing their aircrafts before they could be launched (Soryu & Hiryu), while other 2 needed to prepare all their aircrafts in their hangars and then spotted and launched (Akagi & Kaga). And there were like... 42 CAP fighters in the sky (dunno, probably around that)?
With a hand being dealt like that:
A) 2nd CarDiv probably were not going to wait for 1st CarDiv to finish rearming all of their Type 97s just for them to wait for they to arming their Type 99s.
B) 42 CAP fighters were lots of aircrafts, risking ditching them during the battle was too huge of a compromise for the rest of the operation.
With all that, I could see why Soryu's and Hiryu's flight decks would be packed with aircrafts during the Dauntless strike, and why Kaga might have some aircrafts on deck, while Akagi's flight deck would be mostly empty.
THANK YOU for your dedication and attention to details and facts. I admire and appreciate the quality of your channel.
I've been reading books about or including Midway since 1973. Circular second-hand references are common. Further, as an adult I was employed doung security and investigation, and I was stunned at how much first-hand accounts could completely be at odds and also disagree with video and physical evidence.
I think your concluding remarks are gold; it doesn't matter whether the aircraft were on deck; all sources and logic agree that they were fueled and armed. Whether they were on deck, in transit, or in the hangars is immaterial. They got hit, they went BOOM, they caused fires, the carriers were mortally wounded.
The authors of Shattered Sword say that our pilots and gunners who referenced aircraft on the flight decks were telling "lurid tales" for which they can be "forgiven". It's worth pointing out that Leslie was a 40- year- old squadron commander, while McClusky was 40- year- old air group commander. Flinging dirt into the faces of men who risked their lives to gain that victory by claiming that the men in question were exaggerating despite abundant evidence to the contrary (and then 'forgiving them') makes it matter, particularly since these men are no longer around. It's also worth remembering that the author's claim that their primary source (Senshi Sosho) is an official history is untrue. It was neither commissioned nor endorsed by the Japanese government. It in fact represents the predominant views of Japanese veterans, and not historians. In the volume covering Midway for example, much of the responsibility for their defeat is cast onto the shoulders of a petty officer (the pilot of Tone's Scout #4) for initially failing to identify carriers in the U.S. formation, even though he flew outside of his zone to detect them by luck. Meanwhile, the pilot whose flight path took him right over the U.S. carriers without spotting them (an who happened to be a graduate of Eta Jima) got a pass.
The essence of the study of history is a search for truth. With that in mind, I can only say of this video what I've said of 'all' of your videos- WELL DONE.
I think that the point made in 'Shattered Sword' is not that the fighters needed a full flight deck to take off, it is that the CAP had frequent landings and the back of the flight deck had to be clear. The flight deck records are pretty hard to rebut. The Japanese were preparing their planes for attack, but, below decks in the hangar.
Yes, last landing times are what restricted the spotting of aircraft, and not CAP launches- and they fully support the statements in this video.
@@stephennewton2223 I'll try and touch my point as simply as I can here to prevent confusion. The presentation in this video and shattered Sword is not about the A6M needing a full flight deck to take off, it's a smaller topic within a greater picture. Shattered Sword says "Nor should it be assumed that there were no aircraft whatsoever on the Japanese flight decks at 10: 20......these aircraft were mostly, if not entirely, Zeros....." Those sentences are why I mention the odd assertion that Zeros were waiting for takeoff at the after end of the flight deck. While the book doesn't outright say that, it's implied as It's attempting to address the countless accounts of aircraft positioned at the after flight decks. It's a very odd assumption.
The landing times are also odd pieces to fully rely on because of 2 major points:
1) In the case of Soryu, it had nearly 35 minutes between the final landing and being bombed, Akagi had about 15 minutes. As I say in the video, I'm comfortable settling that Akagi had virtually nothing on its flight deck as everything available says so. But Kaga, Soryu, and hiryu are different.
2) Shattered Sword attempts to close the subject of Soryu, hiryu, and Kaga's half hour windows by saying they launched fighters in that duration, which is correct. However, launching does not require the last half of the flight deck when dealing with the Zero. So the timetable still provided the Japanese (excluding Akagi) with roughly 30 minute windows to take aircraft from the hangars to the flight deck. The forward elevators would have been out of service while launching, but the bombers used the central and after elevators, making it completely possible. That is the primary point of the video.
@@centralcrossing4732 It seems to me that they were in active defense and had to leave the decks clear to land CAP fighters who needed to rearm. This would preclude spotting a strike. The time may allow one of the carriers to do this, but, it would require advance knowledge that there would be no more attacks to defend against. Seems unlikely.
@@stephennewton2223 That is a potential argument, and the one Shattered Sword greatly relies on. However, it doesn't obliterate the long list of primary sources that state otherwise from both US and Japanese accounts of the battle. It still fails to explain Hiryu's counterstrike starting launch at 10: 50 when we know it still operated CAP by 10: 13. The books own arguments would suggest it needed to start raising aircraft to the flight deck no later than 10: 05. My purpose behind the video is not to be the dominant factor on the topic, but to demonstrate that there is a very real alternative to Shattered Sword that I think we collectively ignore too easily.
Great points, great video, and some outstanding photos. Japanese downdraft funnels were so... weird, love it!
Thanks for posting!
Excellent video. Shattered Sword is quoted a lot when it comes to the battle of Midway. Your video is a great example of how even a very good source can be wrong in some cases.
That you for your hard work.
Another thought: Japanese doctrine was to launch half of their aircraft at a time. So even if they had managed to get first wave of planes to the deck, there still would have been about half below decks, presumably fueling and arming.
Yes, the ones that returned from the Midway strike.
From other carrier battles, the time difference of attacks from the first and second waves would probably be the equivalent of the time it took to bring the second wave up to the deck and launch.
Interesting topic and aspects. I would add that Soryu did launch at least one of the D4Y Judy Scout Planes prior to the SBD attack. I cannot recall if and when Soryu and Hyriu might have also rearmed their aircraft for sea action. IIRC they had prepared their strike for follow up strikes on Midway. Akagi and Kaga had strike aircraft armed for sea action, then switched after the various Scout #4 reports. At some point I imagine Carrier Division #2 would have also had rearmed their Vals and Kates with anti-ship weaponry. Tone Scout #4 confirmed at least one US Carrier which of course caused the confusion in the Kido Butai. All very interesting.
A very well thought out and articulated argument, deserving of serious thought, and further debate. For what it's worth, you have my respect for your efforts, and your objective views.
Shattered Sword is an AMAZING book. :)
Very informative video. 👍🏼
As an aside: The things people will get passionate about. 🙄😄
I read Shattered Sword and (good book), the actual battle is about 6 pages out of 600 pages. I learned every single solitary detail about the lives and careers of every pilot on both sides it seems. I have since forgotten everything. But I do remember enjoying the book.
Fantastic video showing that it is still possible to disagree with facts in a civil manner. Bravo!
Been watching since this channel was named Yamato30. Love the content. So I have a few suggestions.
1. In the future you could make videos about what changes you would make to a certain ship.
2. You could create a fictional ship or ask viewers to submit their own ship designs and then make a video giving those ships history.
@@No-dy3zk I replied to this comment already, but it appears that my comment didn't send for some reason. Just in case it's not an error on my end, I wanted to make another response.
I like your suggestions and I think they will make excellent video topics. I've already got a few ships I would change in mind for your first topic.
@@centralcrossing4732 Ya I only got the notification for this reply. It seems youtube is just being youtube again lol. Thank you for taking the time to reply.
Another suggestion I just had is maybe try covering space shuttles or some space related stuff.
@@centralcrossing4732 These are good suggestions. I got some as well
1. You could also cover much older ships like medieval or ancient ships.
2. Maybe cover some stuff like the evolution of a navy through out it's existence
3. I know 2 other youtubers covered this already but you could also talk about ships going from wooden sailing ships up to ships of the 20th century.
there is a bit of indesputable evidence that the strike was on deck, ready to go. hiryu launched it's strike quickly enough to follow vb-3 back to the yorktown arriving just as vb-3 was entering the landing pattern. the cruising speed of a loaded val dive bomber was almost the same as that of an unloaded dauntless. there is no way that could have happened if the strike was not ready to go. kudos for going against the wave of revisionist history.
I am surprised there are no pictures of the damaged Akagi, Kaga, and Soryu carriers from the Japanese side.
I think there is a picture from damaged Hiryu. And a drawing of what wrecked Kaga looked like in the book Shattered Sword.
There are a few seconds of film from aboard Akagi after she was hit and while fire- fighting was still in progress. I do mean "seconds", at least as far as I'm aware.
@manilajohn0182 Can you point me to a source for this? An article, website or video? I would love to learn more.
@@TrickiVicBB71 Did you get the info on where to get the video?
@@manilajohn0182 All in vain. Searched across Google and found nothing
What carrier is that at the 9 minute mark? Very unique photo I have never seen before. I'm guessing Soryu?
So if the deck wasn't loading fuel and ammunition how were the dive bombers THAT successful? This is the first I've heard of this account.
The first wave of the "grand scale attack" that Nagumo planned was the original reserve force that he had retained after launching the strike on Midway. Kaga was in the process of moving hers to her flight deck and had approximately 20 or so of the 27 slated on the flight deck. Few of them were spotted however because she had last landed aircraft at approximately 1005. Soryu and Hiryu both had theirs on their flight decks. They had last landed aircraft much earlier and had more than enough time to spot theirs. Akagi's first wave was still in her hangars as she had six fighters on deck about to launch. Lieutenant Best saw these begin to launch as he was diving on Akagi.
The second wave of the "grand scale attack" was the original Midway strike force and was in the hangars of the carriers undergoing the process of rearming and refueling.
What makes me wonder how much research you do, is that Shattered Sword was released in 2005. 19 years ago, and you had never heard of it. HUH???
@@FredKuramura I didn't say I hadn't heard of it. I think it's impossible to not hear of it. I just never read it. I don't have to read every single production on a topic to study the topic.
@@centralcrossing4732 But this book was what changed the thinking on Midway... It was one of the pivotal books on WW2 in a long time.
@@FredKuramura possibly, but I do like just using as many primary sources as possible, which Shattered Sword is not. Even without using Shattered Sword, my videos covering the losses of Akagi, Kaga, and Soryu agreed heavily with the conclusions drawn in Shattered Sword. Just because I haven't read a book you think I should have doesn't make me bad at what I do.
I will take the account of someone who was there over a historians account ( no mater how reputable), anyday.
But... That's where historians get their accounts, from primary sources. What are we to make of primary sources that disagree with each other?