This is a BRILLIANT video idea, Steve...love it!! Plus, it will go a far way in fulfilling the multiple daily video requests you've been bombarded with. ;)
Just ordered this off ebay.....I wonder Steve if I will have the moral fiber to read the whole thing from start to finish....I have ADHD and it is hard to finish things.....
1. As Steve notes, Penguin uses the Henry Bettenson translation. I think it's good, but it definitely errs on the side of lively and idiomatic than literal and formally faithful to the underlying text. 2. The next most popular translation of City of God is RW Dyson's which errs in the opposite direction: accurate but a bit stilted or wooden and in general inelegant English. 3. Personally I prefer the relatively recent William Babcock translation which is faithful to Augustine's Latin as well as stylish in English. For example, regarding a bit about suffering in City of God (1:8), the Babcock translation reads: "In one and the same fire, gold glows red but chaff smokes...Stirred by the same motion, filth gives out a foul stench, but perfume a sweet fragrance” (sub uno igne aurum rutilat palea fumat...nam pari motu exagitatum et exhalat horribiliter caenum et suaviter fragrat unguentum). Another taste (3:29): "it was as if Rome’s own bright eyes were on a rampage against her own limbs” (tamquam suorum luminum in sua membra ferocitatem). 4. Also Babcock replaces and rearranges the subheadings for each of the chapters in City of God (which weren't part the original text) with his own subheadings. Although Babcock's regrouped and reformed subheadings have their faults or at least queries, they're still a great deal better than the traditional subheadings in terms of content as well as placement. Overall I think they're a welcome improvement, though others may differ in this judgment. Certainly I don't think Babcock's subheadings are any worse than the traditional subheadings. 5. The main problem I find with Babcock is that it's printed in two volumes, at least as far as I know, not a single volume. That's a huge pity. I hope that's rectified in the future if it isn't already. 6. Still, all in all, I think Babcock is the best available translation of City of God today. Second is Bettenson, though he plays a bit too fast and loose with the text for my tastes, but Bettenson has the benefit of being published in a single affordable volume and also the benefit of being in use for decades so readers can refer to a common translation in discussing City of God. Edit. By the way, I think the best translation of The Confessions today is from Thomas Williams. His introduction is fantastic. As well, he takes the biblical references out of the text and relegates them to the margins, which is perfect since Augustine never put the biblical references into his text in parentheses or otherwise but rather the biblical references and allusions naturally flow forth from Augustine's pen. And perhaps most importantly of all, Williams is far more sensitive to the philosophical and theological sophistication of Augustine than any other translator in English that I'm aware of. Second best is Hebrew Chadwick but Chadwick often makes Augustine sound more like an Oxford or Cambridge don, which is what Chadwick was but of course Augustine was not.
He's presenting an abridged version, in case anyone wants to know. The unabridged version has around 2500 pages. I don't know if there is any unabridged version in English, though.
What a fabulous undertaking! So many of the videos you’ve shared are an inspiration for those of us who never stopped loving books but did not dare to explore outside of our comfort zone. The insight and the passion I feel in your commentary of The City of God is an example; a book I would have normally ignored? not anymore!
i find it hard to comprehend how well read this guy is... and that he squashed it into a short lifetime, with hopefully still plenty more to go. is he some kind of speed reader? is he human? is he a genius? has he got a photographic memory? who knows?
I thought it up last year and REALLY hoped you'd all like it, especially since you didn't get a normal Penguin tour last year! Very glad it's going over well!
What a wonderful idea to do the Penguins one at a time; I'll look forward to them every day. It will cause my tbr list to explode though. I will probably want to add them all.
Thank you for reading the passage from City of God. Augustine’s mastery of metaphor is one of the most powerful aspects of his thinking and one that you captured very clearly. I remember first encountering his ideas on how we conceive of time and then his rationalizations of the mind within his writing on the Trinity, and it was so apparent that he is a special thinker who communicates intricate ideas to such a broad audience. Great and compelling review of his work and City of God specifically!
I am here, all signed up. I LOVE this... thank you so much. City of God is on my TBR. I appreciate the insights and the warnings (LOL) You are heading into some of my very favorite ancient 'dudes'...... it has been too long since they have thought of them. Thank you so much for this. I will be here listening carefully. Lee K.
Wonderful! A daily delight to deliberate and discuss, to divert from the despairingly dismal current events; to remind us that hopefully this comparatively transient situation will be outlived by great thinkers.
I'm glad this has come up in my recommendations as my introduction to you. This should be a very enjoyable series. I treasure my Penguin Classic collection accumulated over the years, including City of God. Henry Bettenson has done a great service to us. He was the translator of selections from The Early Christian Fathers published by Oxford Paperbacks. There is a Latin/English text of De Civitate Dei books I &II -translation by P.G.Walsh published by Aris & Phillips Classical Texts (2005). Subscribed and look forward to viewing your series.
These particular Penguin editions have that coloured band at the top of the spine... I've never been able to figure out if there is logic to the colours??
There is Augustine City Of God with Confessions In Mortimer Adler's Great Books Britannica Vol.18. If you prefer & can find a single copy. But it's double columned per page instead of single.
I thought I heard you talking about City of God before but I couldn't figure out when and then you mentioned it at the end of the video! I guess I'm well informed on the Steve archives.
Sounds likes a fascinating series. I have really enjoyed your library tour. I disagree though with your interpretation of that passage from Augustine. But I don't know if the combox is the place to get into it. Still, I look forward to this Penguin 2020 tour. You've got a wonderful library!
when you spoke about comparisons to modern authors in terms of directness, I wanted to say perhaps George Orwell? Or at least, I was always struck by the clarity of his prose. But I haven't read St. Augustine yet so maybe that's wildly off target... Will add this book to my list - and this channel to my subscriptions!
I appreciate your perspective. It makes me want to read this again. I did notice that you cherry picked an example of how Augustine cherry picked an example to support his polemic. Did I pass the test?
“God will not despise a heart that is broken and humbled” - is that why he ruthlessly tortured Job for no reason? I’m looking forward to reading that book for its historical and philosophical insight, although only after I finish the western canon starter kit (still on the Greeks!).
I listened to City of God on audiobook a few summers ago with the physical copy in front of me. I wanted to be familiar with its contents for research purposes. Listening to it was the way to go because there are chunks that are frankly boring. And yes, Augustine was a polemicist.
Making sense of Christianity when Augustine was alive would have been a whole easier then compared to making sense of Christianity now. 1400 years is just longer compared to the amount of time then. But, I agree Augustine should never be slept on…everyone should him.
It won't do to stick to traditionally publisher any more, the books change as per publisher or his adviser's needs and whims. A true writer must write what he wants to write about,you see. Today kindle publishing or self-publishing has an edge over others. There are gems you may pick up . So read the books I mention below.
12:00 In regards to your claim that Manicheanism makes more sense than "tortured Christianity"... Augustine doesn't deny the existence of Demons/creatures that people thought were gods and worshiped. He just believes that you certainly shouldn't worship them. The whole point of Christianity is to avoid those demons. 18:42 And in regards to your claim that Augustine is deliberately controversial... It's not remotely controversial to say that animal sacrifice isn't Christian because Leviticus is in the Old Testament. Christians follow the New Testament. The Old Testament is written from the perspective of Jews and justifies genocide (Samuel and Amalek), animal sacrifice and so on. The Jews were a deeply faulty people and Jesus came to clarify what God actually wanted from humanity. Christians who think that the Old Testament "is what we believe" are straight up not Christians. The Old Testament serves as a record/history leading up to Christ, so we can learn from the faults of the Jewish people.
Well, three things: a) It's a little on the unlikely side the Daily Penguin will actually be LITERALLY daily, and b) quite a few of the Penguins you see behind me are double-stacked, and c) keep in mind, I regularly get more Penguins throughout the year! I don't think we'll be running out!
@@saintdonoghue Steve you misunderstand what I am saying. I'm saying if you only do one per video how will you get them all done by the end of the year betting there is more than 355 books back there, but as you pointed out that was only if I assumed you made a video every day. I'm sorry I didn't make it clear in the first comment.
The fact that you enjoy this and speak of with such passion and yet when you speak of Plotinus and Hegel (who are talking about the exact same things, yet divorced from any sort of doctrinal or faith-based nonsense), you go into a fit of anger and your words naively reflect how poorly you've read philosophy for almost 40+ years. Boethius and Plotinus are about exactly the same topics: ineffability of the One (the God-above-God), what is Mani but a gnostic / neoplatonist / zoroastrian buddhist synthesizer? your mind seems to be stuck on the sensuous, material plane. reflected in your SOLE sensibility for the literary, indulgence of regency romances, star trek novels and so on. very humble, and I respect it, but Augustine himself, Dionysius, the Church fathers themselves -- all take root in the neoplatonic schema forcefully shoved into the theater of the christ-myth -- of which you could easily comport to a Odysseus-myth or Osiris-myth. Whether you're an atheist or Christian you seem to be solely focused on the ethico-moral-practical-utilitarian planes -- the metaphysical, that is to say, physics reflected unto itself yet also beyond it -- goes beyond you. I suggest you read the metahistorian William Irwin Thompson who overturns many of the "boys history" you read in spades (who fought who when and where, Kings, wars, 'muh slaves bad',). History is an unfolding spirit of people within history seeing themselves within history and the Being of such blossoming outward like a flower into all domains of knowledge (politic, art, metaphysic, architecture, science).
I listened to City of God on audiobook a few summers ago with the physical copy in front of me. I wanted to be familiar with its contents for research purposes. Listening to it was the way to go because there are chunks that are frankly boring. And yes, Augustine was a polemicist.
It will be the longest shelf tour in history....
I'm allotting only 2020!
Yes! This is the greatest series idea ever
I think the original Star Trek was the greatest series idea ever, but I'll gladly take Second Place!
This is a BRILLIANT video idea, Steve...love it!! Plus, it will go a far way in fulfilling the multiple daily video requests you've been bombarded with. ;)
Steve enjoying a work of philosophy is a rare sight indeed!
Just ordered this off ebay.....I wonder Steve if I will have the moral fiber to read the whole thing from start to finish....I have ADHD and it is hard to finish things.....
What a great idea for a new video series. The sound you hear in the background is the pitter-patter of "happy feet" for the daily penguin chat.
Me: A penguin a day? Is that what heaven is like?
Pope Donoghue: Yes my son.
Augustine: *subscribed*
1. As Steve notes, Penguin uses the Henry Bettenson translation. I think it's good, but it definitely errs on the side of lively and idiomatic than literal and formally faithful to the underlying text.
2. The next most popular translation of City of God is RW Dyson's which errs in the opposite direction: accurate but a bit stilted or wooden and in general inelegant English.
3. Personally I prefer the relatively recent William Babcock translation which is faithful to Augustine's Latin as well as stylish in English. For example, regarding a bit about suffering in City of God (1:8), the Babcock translation reads: "In one and the same fire, gold glows red but chaff smokes...Stirred by the same motion, filth gives out a foul stench, but perfume a sweet fragrance” (sub uno igne aurum rutilat palea fumat...nam pari motu exagitatum et exhalat horribiliter caenum et suaviter fragrat unguentum). Another taste (3:29): "it was as if Rome’s own bright eyes were on a rampage against her own limbs” (tamquam suorum luminum in sua membra ferocitatem).
4. Also Babcock replaces and rearranges the subheadings for each of the chapters in City of God (which weren't part the original text) with his own subheadings. Although Babcock's regrouped and reformed subheadings have their faults or at least queries, they're still a great deal better than the traditional subheadings in terms of content as well as placement. Overall I think they're a welcome improvement, though others may differ in this judgment. Certainly I don't think Babcock's subheadings are any worse than the traditional subheadings.
5. The main problem I find with Babcock is that it's printed in two volumes, at least as far as I know, not a single volume. That's a huge pity. I hope that's rectified in the future if it isn't already.
6. Still, all in all, I think Babcock is the best available translation of City of God today. Second is Bettenson, though he plays a bit too fast and loose with the text for my tastes, but Bettenson has the benefit of being published in a single affordable volume and also the benefit of being in use for decades so readers can refer to a common translation in discussing City of God.
Edit. By the way, I think the best translation of The Confessions today is from Thomas Williams. His introduction is fantastic. As well, he takes the biblical references out of the text and relegates them to the margins, which is perfect since Augustine never put the biblical references into his text in parentheses or otherwise but rather the biblical references and allusions naturally flow forth from Augustine's pen. And perhaps most importantly of all, Williams is far more sensitive to the philosophical and theological sophistication of Augustine than any other translator in English that I'm aware of. Second best is Hebrew Chadwick but Chadwick often makes Augustine sound more like an Oxford or Cambridge don, which is what Chadwick was but of course Augustine was not.
I have been waiting for the shelf tour for eternity, but this defies all the odds! Thanks a lot!
Love this. Hope you keep going on this penguin track. Learned something new today listening to this
👏👏👏👏 Penguin Classics a day!!! Beeeean is adorable!!!!
Penguin A Day, all by itself, makes 2020 something to look forward to.
Really looking forward to this new feature on your channel this year. I loved listening to this deep dive on one of your treasured Penguins.
Wow this is going to one to savour Steve. The blessed penguins. Brilliant thank you 😊Loved the outline of city of god
He's presenting an abridged version, in case anyone wants to know. The unabridged version has around 2500 pages. I don't know if there is any unabridged version in English, though.
What a fabulous undertaking! So many of the videos you’ve shared are an inspiration for those of us who never stopped loving books but did not dare to explore outside of our comfort zone. The insight and the passion I feel in your commentary of The City of God is an example; a book I would have normally ignored? not anymore!
You are so interesting and enthusiastic. I bet you are an amazing teacher. I also love the way you are with you little dog. What a mind you have.
Frieda’s looking especially photogenic today!
Oh boy, I'm am thrilled about this Penguin series!
i find it hard to comprehend how well read this guy is... and that he squashed it into a short lifetime, with hopefully still plenty more to go.
is he some kind of speed reader?
is he human?
is he a genius?
has he got a photographic memory?
who knows?
One thing's for sure: "he"s right here, so maybe your comments should be TO him instead of ABOUT him
FANTASTIC!! I look forward to the daily dose!!
This is such a great idea! Yes!
I thought it up last year and REALLY hoped you'd all like it, especially since you didn't get a normal Penguin tour last year! Very glad it's going over well!
Thank you, Steve...Thank you... New favourite series,
Wow! I would never have picked up that book (for a few reasons), but now I'm convinced I need to read that! Thank you!!
What a wonderful idea to do the Penguins one at a time; I'll look forward to them every day. It will cause my tbr list to explode though. I will probably want to add them all.
Thank you for reading the passage from City of God. Augustine’s mastery of metaphor is one of the most powerful aspects of his thinking and one that you captured very clearly. I remember first encountering his ideas on how we conceive of time and then his rationalizations of the mind within his writing on the Trinity, and it was so apparent that he is a special thinker who communicates intricate ideas to such a broad audience.
Great and compelling review of his work and City of God specifically!
2:30 I love those yellow and black Penguins.
This was absolutely fascinating!! I've always been wary of City of God but after this, I feel like I'm up to the task of reading it.
I am here, all signed up. I LOVE this... thank you so much. City of God is on my TBR. I appreciate the insights and the warnings (LOL) You are heading into some of my very favorite ancient 'dudes'...... it has been too long since they have thought of them. Thank you so much for this. I will be here listening carefully. Lee K.
Wonderful! A daily delight to deliberate and discuss, to divert from the despairingly dismal current events; to remind us that hopefully this comparatively transient situation will be outlived by great thinkers.
What a gift. Thank you for doing this.
This is awesome
I'm glad this has come up in my recommendations as my introduction to you. This should be a very enjoyable series. I treasure my Penguin Classic collection accumulated over the years, including City of God. Henry Bettenson has done a great service to us. He was the translator of selections from The Early Christian Fathers published by Oxford Paperbacks. There is a Latin/English text of De Civitate Dei books I &II -translation by P.G.Walsh published by Aris & Phillips Classical Texts (2005). Subscribed and look forward to viewing your series.
These particular Penguin editions have that coloured band at the top of the spine... I've never been able to figure out if there is logic to the colours??
There is Augustine City Of God with Confessions In Mortimer Adler's Great Books Britannica Vol.18. If you prefer & can find a single copy. But it's double columned per page instead of single.
You can get the Penguin edition on Apple Books for £1.99. Reading it right now, which is why I clicked on this video. Great review.
I thought I heard you talking about City of God before but I couldn't figure out when and then you mentioned it at the end of the video! I guess I'm well informed on the Steve archives.
Yippee! What a perfect plan! I'll echo Jason and say I can't wait for this year-long entertaining education--preparation for the SD degree.
Terrific idea Steve!
Sounds likes a fascinating series. I have really enjoyed your library tour. I disagree though with your interpretation of that passage from Augustine. But I don't know if the combox is the place to get into it. Still, I look forward to this Penguin 2020 tour. You've got a wonderful library!
when you spoke about comparisons to modern authors in terms of directness, I wanted to say perhaps George Orwell? Or at least, I was always struck by the clarity of his prose. But I haven't read St. Augustine yet so maybe that's wildly off target... Will add this book to my list - and this channel to my subscriptions!
I appreciate your perspective. It makes me want to read this again. I did notice that you cherry picked an example of how Augustine cherry picked an example to support his polemic. Did I pass the test?
I wonder what latin text should we use in OUR LATIN STUDIES of 2020?
Penguin a day! Yayyy!
OMG!!! Yesss!!!! Hurray!!!!!
This is going to be epic!
“God will not despise a heart that is broken and humbled” - is that why he ruthlessly tortured Job for no reason? I’m looking forward to reading that book for its historical and philosophical insight, although only after I finish the western canon starter kit (still on the Greeks!).
You must have not read the book of Job.
Read The Retriever Of Dignity,a novel. And The Fisherman & His Son & The Innocents Went Too Far,books that will surprise you.
I listened to City of God on audiobook a few summers ago with the physical copy in front of me. I wanted to be familiar with its contents for research purposes. Listening to it was the way to go because there are chunks that are frankly boring. And yes, Augustine was a polemicist.
Making sense of Christianity when Augustine was alive would have been a whole easier then compared to making sense of Christianity now. 1400 years is just longer compared to the amount of time then. But, I agree Augustine should never be slept on…everyone should him.
It won't do to stick to traditionally publisher any more, the books change as per publisher or his adviser's needs and whims. A true writer must write what he wants to write about,you see. Today kindle publishing or self-publishing has an edge over others. There are gems you may pick up . So read the books I mention below.
I'd be interested in a Eastern Region starter kit 🤟✌️
I'm not sure I'd know enough to make one!
@@saintdonoghue 😲😳😱
God loves a terrier!
12:00 In regards to your claim that Manicheanism makes more sense than "tortured Christianity"... Augustine doesn't deny the existence of Demons/creatures that people thought were gods and worshiped. He just believes that you certainly shouldn't worship them. The whole point of Christianity is to avoid those demons.
18:42 And in regards to your claim that Augustine is deliberately controversial... It's not remotely controversial to say that animal sacrifice isn't Christian because Leviticus is in the Old Testament. Christians follow the New Testament. The Old Testament is written from the perspective of Jews and justifies genocide (Samuel and Amalek), animal sacrifice and so on. The Jews were a deeply faulty people and Jesus came to clarify what God actually wanted from humanity. Christians who think that the Old Testament "is what we believe" are straight up not Christians. The Old Testament serves as a record/history leading up to Christ, so we can learn from the faults of the Jewish people.
Are you sure there is not more than 355 penguins back there, considering you make a video every day until December 31st ?
Well, three things: a) It's a little on the unlikely side the Daily Penguin will actually be LITERALLY daily, and b) quite a few of the Penguins you see behind me are double-stacked, and c) keep in mind, I regularly get more Penguins throughout the year! I don't think we'll be running out!
@@saintdonoghue Steve you misunderstand what I am saying. I'm saying if you only do one per video how will you get them all done by the end of the year betting there is more than 355 books back there, but as you pointed out that was only if I assumed you made a video every day. I'm sorry I didn't make it clear in the first comment.
What's the next one? What's the next one?
The fact that you enjoy this and speak of with such passion and yet when you speak of Plotinus and Hegel (who are talking about the exact same things, yet divorced from any sort of doctrinal or faith-based nonsense), you go into a fit of anger and your words naively reflect how poorly you've read philosophy for almost 40+ years. Boethius and Plotinus are about exactly the same topics: ineffability of the One (the God-above-God), what is Mani but a gnostic / neoplatonist / zoroastrian buddhist synthesizer? your mind seems to be stuck on the sensuous, material plane. reflected in your SOLE sensibility for the literary, indulgence of regency romances, star trek novels and so on. very humble, and I respect it, but Augustine himself, Dionysius, the Church fathers themselves -- all take root in the neoplatonic schema forcefully shoved into the theater of the christ-myth -- of which you could easily comport to a Odysseus-myth or Osiris-myth. Whether you're an atheist or Christian you seem to be solely focused on the ethico-moral-practical-utilitarian planes -- the metaphysical, that is to say, physics reflected unto itself yet also beyond it -- goes beyond you. I suggest you read the metahistorian William Irwin Thompson who overturns many of the "boys history" you read in spades (who fought who when and where, Kings, wars, 'muh slaves bad',). History is an unfolding spirit of people within history seeing themselves within history and the Being of such blossoming outward like a flower into all domains of knowledge (politic, art, metaphysic, architecture, science).
I listened to City of God on audiobook a few summers ago with the physical copy in front of me. I wanted to be familiar with its contents for research purposes. Listening to it was the way to go because there are chunks that are frankly boring. And yes, Augustine was a polemicist.