Nice to to see your young brother getting involved. Not a rant in sight. I reckon all that copper piping has made you bitter and twisted🤣🤣. Only joking your a top man Rodger.👍
Article on our local TV tonight about an idea I had years ago - drilling into old flooded mines and running the pipes in there . Literally millions of gallons of water at 20c all year round. We have apparently many thousands of such mines in the UK!
I was keen on a GSHP system about 18 years ago and got a specialist company in for a quote. £12k for a Scandinavian system if I dug 3x50m trenches 1 m deep and 1m wide for the collector slinkies. Our family is quite large and between us we cover most building trades and I had had my quite large house built 6 years previous so it was quite well insulated for that time. But no underfloor heating. The radiators were going to be changed for suitable ones fed from the oil fired boiler. It suddenly occurred to me to ask what was the thermal resistivity ( conductance ) of the soil? They asked why was I asking! I explained that as a young electrical engineer one of my first jobs was a 132 kv underground cable from a power station transformer station. The thermal resistance was important to take the heat away from the cable. If it was not good special backfill was needed. Perhaps today this is taken into account but 18 years ago the company I was dealing with did not consider the soil at all. My soil is very high in clay and flint and very unsuitable for that type of system. So the project didn’t go ahead. Perhaps there is some data today showing the COP change with soil type? My guess is with heavy clay you would struggle to get a COP of 2 at 5 degrees Cost
You are right. Soil type is important. But in sweden it does not really affect cop normally, but it affect how long piping that is required for the collector. Wet clay soil is the best, and sand the worst (if i dont remember wrong). We almost never use this slinky style. I dont think it is efficient.
@@bsod5608 Unfortunately I think you have remembered wrong about the soil type. There are a lot of variables in soil thermal conductivity including moisture content , compaction (air gaps), temperature of the soil, and of course type of soil. According to Oklahoma State University the conductivity for quartz (sand types) is the best at 8.8, clay is 3, and organic matter is 0.3, worst is air at .025 Because of the variables it is better to measure the actual conductivity on site. I expect you may be right about slinky collectors. However collecting heat from as much volume of soil as you can must surely be better when you are running 24/7 in winter? I have been getting a few cold calls over recent weeks about heatpumps and government grants etc. For the first time one of the callers actually admitted clay soils could be a problem. GSHP is infinitely better than ASHP in terms of cold weather performance , noise etc. If I didn;t have a huge shading problem from trees (protection order so can't fell them) I would now go for a PV system with battery storage, thermal collection for hot water.
@@michaelviney3737 yeah, onsite test is best if it is possible to carry out. Dont know if it is expensive. The moisture content as you said is important, and clay tend to hold water better than sand. But really wet quartz sand is far superior to clay, that is right. I looked up some reference values for differens soil types, and unfrozen [swedish] clay is typically 0,85 - 1,5 w/m, k. Frozen clay 2-2,8 w/m, k. Sand have a wider variety depending on its mineralorigin/water content, particle size, from 0.4 (dry) - 4. Pure quartz, as a rock is around 7.5 w/m, k. At least in my area, we never have pure quartz sand. I dont think clay is unsuiteble for geothermal heat, it is very common here around. its just a question of sizing of the collector. A house with about 6kW heatpump would proably need around 400 - 600 m collector in sweden, due to long winter. some more english reference-material. www.geothermal-energy.org/pdf/IGAstandard/WGC/2010/2952.pdf The slinky style may be more suitable for countries with a higher average outdoor temp than sweden. Local electric prices and cost for labour is probably changing how to optimize the system too. Its a basic investment cost vs operating cost. airsouce vs groundsorce is all about air-temperature. Its a lower investment, so if you live in an area with fairly high airtemperature/short winters its genreally favorable with ASHP. In south of sweden its more favorable with ASHP, in the north GSHP is more favorable.
@@bsod5608 Thank you for your reply. You are fortunate in Sweden to have built suitable houses for relatively low water temperature systems. We in the UK mostly live in houses built for higher water temperatures and the cost of retrofitting is high. I used to look forward to my visits to Sweden to see ASEA when they were building the nuclear power plant in Sweden. Later they merged with the Swiss Company Brown Boveri with whom we had projects in the Middle East. I'm afraid I do dislike ASHP having experienced them when living in Canada. But I expect they are correctly installed and operated in Sweden Good Luck
We had a GSHP installed in Sept 21 and are located in the Hudson Valley NY USA. It is a 5 ton vertical closed loop system with two bore holes each 88 meters deep. On Jan 16 at 4A ET temp outside was -1F or -18.33 Celsius. The water coming in was at 42.5F or 5.833C and going out was 38.9F or 4.39C. The return air was 65.8F or 18.7C the supply air was 86.5F or 30.3C. The temp was set to 68F or 20C in the house.
@@scooter_scooter_scooter After all rebates and the Fed Tax Credit it comes in at $21,800 USD. From start to turning it on took about four days for the drilling and two weeks to complete the installation. That included removing an air source heat pump and an oil furnace.
@@chrismaxny4066 just so you know, just got two estimates, 5 ton ground source closed loop, radiant flooring and heating in a 3100 square foot house- $145,000.00! Not joking.
Our quote was $40,375 and after a discount for cash payment, an incentive from Central Hudson (electric company) and a 26% Federal Tax Credit the price was $21,315.70. The check we wrote to Dandelion was $28,805 as the fed tax credit wasn't received until we filed taxes. We have forced air heating and cooling and a 1800 sq ft home but that still is a huge difference!
Any chance of some ball-park costings Roger? I live in a 4 bedroom detached metal framed house, so can't use cavity wall insulation. I'm sceptical of the benefits claimed for these systems versus my existing gas boiler/radiator & cylinder set-up.
I'd be looking to apply exterior installation instead then - best not to lose heat in the first place than try and warm the air around the house. With power costs spiking at the moment, running the heat pump will also cost more.
Don't blame USA you moron. The eu is to blame for the Ukraine problem. So I guess you don't give a fig about the thousands of dead Ukrainians. You are hypocritical, ill -informed, greedy and cynical
Just to note. There are still those who are skeptical about global warming and this is mainly due to not understanding what the term actually means. Most people do not equate cold temperatures to 'warming', so; As greenhouse gases build up in the atmosphere, that humanity has produced and which has been happening for several centuries, light from the Sun is trapped in these gas molecules which causes the bonds between the atoms to vibrate. This vibration produces heat. A warmer atmosphere equates to a more turbulent atmosphere. A more turbulent atmosphere results in more extremes of all kinds of weather. Hot, cold, rain, snow, storms and other atmospheric and climatic phenomena of all kinds.
I served my time on an electricity board and three months of it was spent with Prestcold in Oxford. Their advice on these systems was unless you have a river at the bottom of your garden forget it.
If people are confused about how the ground contains heat, remember it's only cold relative to our bodies. Relative to the liquid refrigerant, the ground is warm as it's boiling point will be well below 0°C
One of the main issues with heat pumps is how these systems actually perform in real life, so many reviews and analysis are at the stage of being fitted when everything seems great. As this was done some time ago it would be very interesting to go back and see how well it performed over time, speaking to the owners and looking at running costs over time. That would be far more useful than hearing how wonderful things are before it gets switched on!
@@Ben-in6qh I do not think that they use a lot of electricity...it just a pump...also the ground always has a constant temperature...not like the air in winter time
so either roger has let his son do a video, or this video is so old that it just goes to show how far ahead of the curve roger was back in the 90's whichever one it is, it's certainly an eye opener
It's a video from the 90s he just re uploaded for some reason. He has been wasting time talking with heat-geek lately, probably something to do with that.
He said above that the system in the vid cost £30,000. Zero chance the average joe like me will have that lying around so it's really only for people who need to heat their pool.
I saw this video years ago and downloaded it as it was so interesting. I’m guessing It’s a shame you feel the need to bring it back because people are hounding you with regards to your recent comments on air source. Which I totally agree with. Thanks for the education once more 👌
We brought this video back because it discusses ground source as opposed to air source. The simple facts are that most homes could not have ground source so the main focus of the government is air source which is not as efficient. Neither of these system will give you the same output as a gas boiler. Just for the record, I do not feel hounded in the slightest, I enjoy the debate and the video has had a a lot of views so I am happy.
How do these systems compare in the dead of winter, while the ground might still have a temp to extract would it be able to sufficiently heat the house with say under floor heating or would you need to boost the heat as you would with some solar systems
I lived in a house with a ground source heat pump a while back and it was always nice and warm. It was a big system though so probably cost a fortune. My guess is that a smaller system with a boost for the coldest weeks would be more economical.
What would be the cost of fitting a ground source system to a detached 4/5 bed house with concrete floor. Walls and roof well insulated, roof space gives us three loft spaces, one along each sides of the roof and a standard loft at the apex of the roof. These have multi layers of insulation and are floored with roof standard chipboard and the roof eaves are also filled with insulation material. We nave now a combi boiled (3 years old and very efficient), an independent 10kw log burner. Windows and doors are double glazed and in some cases triple glazed and in some cases double glazed with secondary glazing and in some cases triple glazed with secondary glazing. We have a modern front porch and a large conservatory. Rear garden is approx 80ft x 40ft narrowing to 28ft. Access to the garden is not a problem and there is considerable parking to the front, paver drive. I need an estimate fairly quickly!
Yes, it can happen very quickly and we have seen cases where the ground has frozen. You can see a potential problem where the pipes run alongside the swimming pool.
Ground temp to 2-3 m depth varies seasonally (quite slowly across most of uk). Daily solar gain builds up “heat” , but heat is also being lost via evapotranspiration so there is quite a complex flow of heat in the shallow subsurface (esp if there is shallow groundwater too). GSHP systems are “supposed” to be engineered to factor in soil thermal conductivity (which controls how well the soil will absorb and transmit heat/cold. Conductivity is a function of soil type and moisture content - and these can change considerably with depth - as well as laterally not all soils are as uniform as the one that is this video). If the collector is not designed correctly (too shallow, too closely spaced), then the system can freeze the ground (simply dumping more “cold” than the soil can conduct away) the compact systems really do have to be designed carefully, slinkies - less so. The idea is to strike a balance over the year, during winter you extract heat from the ground, over the summer the ground recovers naturally via solar gain (if you run a reversible system for air conditioning, you can pump heat into the ground- which can cause plant distress as you desiccate it). Generally, shallow GSHP go in about 1m depth (checkout the video - are those folks super short? Walking along those trenches?). As a geologist (with some experience of GSHP in Europe) I think too many of these systems are still being installed far too shallow- installers use shallow trenches because of costs but also to avoid rules about shoring trench walls over 1.2m deep (trench support kit is costly). Thermal gain “sweet spot” for many uk soils is closer to 2m depth not 1m…it’s all about balancing that heat exchange- for which you want a steady temperature that you can work with and deeper is more stable than shallow. If your system is too shallow you may get marginal benefits in spring as the first 0.5m of ground warms up quickly, but you also run the risk of freezing as winter sets in and the solar gain tails off (there is a time lag as well- so it’s complicated ). If your system is too shallow (or you mess up the conductivity calcs) you really are going to end up not getting the COP=4.
Hi, I've already discounted solar as my garden is surrounded by trees, but if gshp needs ground warmed by the sun, I'll have the same problem here too, correct please?
The deeper you drill, the warmer the ground is, and the extracted heat is then classed as geothermal. So people like me who live in small houses on small plots in cold, dull damp areas of the UK could only dig deep rather than wide.
@@normanboyes4983 So where is the cut-off depth between sun-warmed ground and earth-core-warmed ground (on average in the UK)? Is there a level where it would be pointless installing a circulation system perhaps?
In a modest 3 bed house what would be the minimum sized garden for this compact collector to work ? You would also need a rather big room inside for the heat pump and anything else.
nice videos. I've seen quite a few now. Many thanks and great work! One question please, would it be possible for an underfloor heating system to double as a ground-source energy supply for the water immersion tank?. everything would be inside the building, and installation on top of clay.
Although this was one year ago, it still amazes me how many new builds are not taking advantage of this technology. especially thermal and solar panels on roofs as well as ground-source heat pumps. Near where I live there is a large solar farm taking up valuable agricultural land. So my question is two-fold why do we not mandate in the building regs sola and thermal heat and electric capture. I am not talking about this feeding back into the network, but using it on an individual basis. Or even a small community basis. In the same way, some villages are clubbing together for broadband internet as the big companies are trying to fleece small communities or just to gather government grants only serving the shareholders. We have seen what happened to the water industry mentioning no names.
Roger shall grow not old, as we that watch the videos grow old; Age shall not weary him, nor the years condemn. At the plugging of the channel, and the urging to subscribe, We will remember him... But not like this 🤣
It seems really stupid to put the forward pipe and return just next to each other and insulate them. In sweden we dig 2 trenches about 1 m apart, and put forward in 1 and return in the other, and skip the insulation. We only insulate them the very last meter or 2 from the house.
Happy New Year Roger. Please may I ask a quick question " how thick is a 1980 concrete floor" single storey extension. I looked through 1976 regs and couldn't find anything. Do you know if any old builders!! I wish to dig in underfloor heating and insulation. I will drill a test hole to double check. I would be very very grateful. x
Didn't see one worth having 20 years ago, and even now wearing glasses I still can see one worth having. If global warming statistics and estimates turn out to be correct by 2030 the average winter tempreture will be -15, heat pumps won't be able to rise to the compensated required heat.
Your ahead of the game but quite a few years by the looks of things. Luv your show. Keep on top and keep publishing because it’s people like you who the future really take advice and learn from. It goes s long way Thanks. I’m a very experienced tiler/bathroom fitter if you ever want to come to shoot any video clips.
Tricky The fact that I am willing to tell the truth about air source is not a commercial decision. We could get loads of ads from heat pump manufacturers. Ground source is impractical and too expensive for most homes. Air source works with underfloor heating and high levels of insulation. If that is too nuanced for you then sorry.
@@SkillBuilder it works in other situations too. But in my opinion, you have an agenda aside from the ad revenue here. You are quite right it doesn't work everywhere, but I disagree with the headlines you are chasing discrediting the technology.
Great but for the ordinary suburban house its going to be impractical and if installed, very expensive. For me with a back garden 50ft x 50ft max and front 25ft x 80ft I reckon it would have to be a borehole. Then you have to find space for hot water storage and all the equipment. Then all the radiators would have to be upsized. Lastly, how could I get the very hot baths and showers I like, current hot water temp 60c for 'topping up'. Then we have the rocketing price of electric even at 4-1 efficiency. So solar panels and a battery needed. So what are we looking at? £30k plus? Maybe going down the shops to buy a big coat and some thermals!
@@TurinTuramber , GSHP is more common in Germany and Sweden, systems there are well established as viable heating and -5 is nae bother….but uk housing stock and some poor over selling means they have had a dodgy start here..stayed in plenty of places where it was more an issue of trying to turn it down/off
Huge amount of space required for all the associated equipment, great for large houses but not for most people and especially for those who live in flats
My problem with ground source heat pumps or indeed air source is their over reliance on electronics to boost their so called electrical efficiency rating Simple would be better ( old style direct switching rather than inverter driven) After too many years to mention I have found that modern air conditioning systems ( which Heat pumps basically are) are as fragile as F1 cars against earlier types 1980s They will be expensive to repair as not a plumbers repair job so new training will be needed or the normal cowboys will be in Any problem and I bet the first thing the engineer says will be that replacing the unit will be cheaper It will certainly be easier ( and more profitable) for him
All the electronics are made in China, the units change every 5 minutes and nothing is compatible. Asides from the boards there are lots of other electronics dotted around, MOSFETS' mounted on heatsinks capacitors mounted in motors, loads to go wrong. Even if you go with one of the big manufacturers you will be no better off, parts will become obsolete and the whole unit will need to be replaced. Since the new outdoor unit will no longer be compatible with the indoor system, indoor unit replacement and re connection will be required. One big cluster fuck every 5-10 years.
@@cuckingfunt9353 Or just go with a Chinese Made System for 1/3 of the Price that has no fancy Inverter Controll and just let it run in steady states. That is my Plan. Everything else will be done via a regular Boiler. I fully agree with your statement. Just go as simple as it can be. My last Gas Boiler lastet almost 30 years, the one what replaced that old buity will be gone in latest 15 years.
One of the easiest ways to transfer heat from ground sources is with ground water if there is a sufficient supply the earth readily gives up it's stored heat and the cold return can be put back just as easily. Heating companies seem to steer customers away from this type as it cost a lot less. Cheers.
I don't understand why it's necessary to insulate the lines going to and from the field. Why can't the supply and return be run on opposite sides of a 24" trench and serve as part of the system? Picking up heat along the way? It's essentially the same thing as linear pipes in the field.
@@SkillBuilder So if you have room for a 24" trench and can bury it as deep as all the other lines, the supply lines should not be insulated and therefor figure positively in the heat calculations, correct...? Seems like this would be the preferred option. Also, I know you have a bone to pick with air source heat pumps but a German engineer type fellow I've built stuff for for years over here in california is telling me Viessmann is coming out with a new model that is ridiculously efficient. Are you aware of this and, if so, what's your thinking? It sure would be a lot easier to go with that thing than doing all the digging. I've got plenty of area to work with but none of it is flat. By the way, thanks for responding.
This is ground source and it works better but this is not what most people will fit. The air source is not as good. I said in this video that insulation is the key.
They saw it ages ago. I think they agree with me on almost everything. Heat pumps in well insulated buildings work but they are still no match for a boiler.
It is not at odds at all. We put this video back up to show that ground source is a lot better than air source because a lot of people were saying that in the comments but we show that even this system is not enough to heat this house in the winter because it is poorly insulated. Without the backup boiler, ground source is not economic or practical for most homes.
Wow!! That must have been hugely expensive and totally inappropriate for the majority of properties in the UK. I live in a two bedroom terraced house built around 1900 ( 2 or 3 bedroom Victorian terraced houses are very common to most UK towns and cities). Internal wall insulation wouldn't work and exterior at the front only any good if the whole row had it done. Would maybe work at the rear? As far as heat source for water and heating I'm kind of stuck with gas or electric both of which are becoming more expensive very quickly. My rear garden (yard) is a sun trap in the spring and summer so it's a shame there's not some way of capturing this heat and storing it insulated under the house for winter use. I've no idea how this could be done or the longevity of heat held in storage systems. Are there any case studies for UK terraced houses and methods to insulate and heat such properties?. Only other option I can think of is knock them all down and start again!
Treble I agree with all you say and storing heat under ground won't work for that long. I think we need cheap energy, that should be our goal and there are lots of people working towards it.
Great idea in theory, but with a COP of four, assuming it manages that consistently, and present electric prices, natural gas is still cheaper (4p/kwh vs electric at 22p/cop of 4 = 5.5p/kwh)
For how long? Gas prices are soaring and the stated government policy will be to reduce the differential between gas and electric costs per kWh in order to encourage the production and use of electricity and via wind and solar to deliver the reduced carbon emissions targets.
The situation is particularly acute if you live off the gas grid. Since moving into a property 5 years ago, supplied by lpg tanker deliveries, the cost per litre has risen from 32p/l to 55p/l. It has never dropped in that time only plateaued for brief periods before rising again. I can't imagine this trend changing, only continuing.
@@WirelessGriff Do you seriously believe the 6x difference between gas and electric, that based on the expected wholesale price increases in April of circa 40%, which will undoubtedly be more like 50% when it hits the retail market, making the difference between electric and gas around 10x different are going to be blended into a single rate? Furthermore, the wholesale rate increase expectation of 40% in April and a further 20pc in Sept are going to make such a colossal void between electric and natural gas, you've going to need devices with an impossible year round COP of 10+ to even compete on basic energy consumption. To say nothing of the capex of course..
Energy prices will change to the detriment of gas - it will be a political balancing exercise to achieve that. Currently the Green tariffs (25%) are applied to electricity and given the pledges at COP26 the logical first step is to remove from electric and apply to gas. But - I am still installing a new gas boiler in May 2022.
Hello very well presented but you have mellowed? We had several buildings on our land at the rear of the main house with a mixture of half metre rubble walls and brick cavity walls where the original outbuildings had been extended into five three bedroom houses. There was plenty of room for a horizontal loop system but the ultimate decision was one borehole per house. This worked well but only because we were able to line the interiors with 6" insulation during modification and extension of the original structures. It was deemed impossible to attempt to install a heat pump in the main house as the half metre rubble wall with normal interior wooden frame and plasterboard would have to be completely stripped and various options of foam/resin etc applied for insulation with an estimated cost of £35/40k. The five three bedroom modifications referred to cost on average £20k incl 100metre deep boreholes, pump and insulation. What spurred me to make this comment is viewing your original you tube critique highlighting the potential issues applying to grant aided heat pump installations was music to my ears as i agreed with every single comment you made and I was hoping someone would point to the pitfalls of heat pumps as well as the benefits. I fear there are going to be many people living in what I believe are unsuitable dwellings for heat pump conversion especially in conurbations where gas boilers are commonly used and could be a very costly mistake both for the home owner and government policy. Good luck with all your future videos and don't be frightened of telling the truth I see you been taking some criticism from the trade???
This looks like an old video. So given what you've said in other videos about ground source heat pumps, why put it out now? Just an advert for Worcester Bosch.
I didn't say that ground source doesn't work. I said that it was unsuitable in urban environments and most homes can't have it. This video illustrates just that, hence the reason for putting it out.
Roger I know you made this a while back just wondering why you've re-released it. I thought in your video about ASHP you mentioned neither those or GSHP worked well enough and that was why you didn't fit one for yourself.
Hi Paul I put this out because it shows how much work is involved and how impractical it would be for an average home. I said in the video they were keeping the boiler for very cold days. I think that says it all. Nothing has changed since I made this video.
@@SkillBuilder Thanks for the reply. Heat pumps appear to be a minefield and so dependant on the engineer specing the system. Makes it very hard to make an informed choice.
Ground source versus air source. two different things and you may notice they didn't chuck out the boiler. This video actually reinforces everything I said about the foolishness of taking out gas boilers and putting in air source
Thanks for your reply Roger. Much appreciated. One question though, does the ground pump require the noisy air conditioning type unit fixed to the building with the fan unit running through the night?
Excellent video. The amount of disruption really comes across. To get to zero emissions we need to use all technologies available. The government needs to properly support these schemes to help householders overcome the disruption barrier.
How about just have wall mounted units for heating and cooling, boil the kettle to wash up and use an electric shower. No need for ground source at all if you don't mind not having hot water coming out of the taps...an air source digital scroll inverter is pretty efficient and you don't need to be a landowner to have one.
This video is old now. Now, with there decade plus more experience, roger should do a follow up video explaining, the positives and negatives of such a thing today. Has this tech improved since you made that video over a decade ago?
CoP of 4, or even more may well be delivered on average over the year, but in winter it will drop to 1 or less when system inefficiencies are taken into account. ie In winter, running costs will be horrendous based as it is on prime electricity. Mind you, in summer you'll have heating and hot water galore 😁 Another point, in Scotland. the sun doesn't shine every day. Well, not underneath clouds it doesn't
Good to see your posh son is getting involved Roger 👍🏽
Nice to to see your young brother getting involved. Not a rant in sight. I reckon all that copper piping has made you bitter and twisted🤣🤣. Only joking your a top man Rodger.👍
It's young Roger again with his telephone voice!!
Definitely the way to go for the future of our planet. I have an air to water heat pump and love it .
Nice to see your getting your son involved Roger
He's been to a detox yoga retreat, cucumber on the eyes.......
@@vic6820
His son yeah ? 😁
I've been looking at renewables for years and I totally agree with you Roger. Don't let them get you down.
Article on our local TV tonight about an idea I had years ago - drilling into old flooded mines and running the pipes in there . Literally millions of gallons of water at 20c all year round. We have apparently many thousands of such mines in the UK!
Yes good idea but if too many people extract heat from one source it wll freeze. Maybe we need to put heat pumps at the poles.
@@SkillBuilder why should we give heat pumps only to Polish people?
#DadJoke
But seriously folks, maybe not @skill builder. The water in the would continue to circulate heat from the rock and water and earth in the mine.
If you are seriously interested in mine water heat visit Newcastle Gateshead 6MW district heating scheme and UKGEOS Glasgow research facility .
This feels like it was filmed in the 80s!
I was keen on a GSHP system about 18 years ago and got a specialist company in for a quote.
£12k for a Scandinavian system if I dug 3x50m trenches 1 m deep and 1m wide for the collector slinkies.
Our family is quite large and between us we cover most building trades and I had had my quite large house built 6 years previous so it was quite well insulated for that time. But no underfloor heating. The radiators were going to be changed for suitable ones fed from the oil fired boiler.
It suddenly occurred to me to ask what was the thermal resistivity ( conductance ) of the soil? They asked why was I asking!
I explained that as a young electrical engineer one of my first jobs was a 132 kv underground cable from a power station transformer station. The thermal resistance was important to take the heat away from the cable. If it was not good special backfill was needed. Perhaps today this is taken into account but 18 years ago the company I was dealing with did not consider the soil at all. My soil is very high in clay and flint and very unsuitable for that type of system. So the project didn’t go ahead.
Perhaps there is some data today showing the COP change with soil type? My guess is with heavy clay you would struggle to get a COP of 2 at 5 degrees Cost
You are right. Soil type is important. But in sweden it does not really affect cop normally, but it affect how long piping that is required for the collector. Wet clay soil is the best, and sand the worst (if i dont remember wrong).
We almost never use this slinky style. I dont think it is efficient.
@@bsod5608
Unfortunately I think you have remembered wrong about the soil type.
There are a lot of variables in soil thermal conductivity including moisture content , compaction (air gaps), temperature of the soil, and of course type of soil.
According to Oklahoma State University the conductivity for quartz (sand types) is the best at 8.8, clay is 3, and organic matter is 0.3, worst is air at .025
Because of the variables it is better to measure the actual conductivity on site.
I expect you may be right about slinky collectors. However collecting heat from as much volume of soil as you can must surely be better when you are running 24/7 in winter?
I have been getting a few cold calls over recent weeks about heatpumps and government grants etc. For the first time one of the callers actually admitted clay soils could be a problem.
GSHP is infinitely better than ASHP in terms of cold weather performance , noise etc. If I didn;t have a huge shading problem from trees (protection order so can't fell them) I would now go for a PV system with battery storage, thermal collection for hot water.
@@michaelviney3737 yeah, onsite test is best if it is possible to carry out. Dont know if it is expensive. The moisture content as you said is important, and clay tend to hold water better than sand. But really wet quartz sand is far superior to clay, that is right.
I looked up some reference values for differens soil types, and unfrozen [swedish] clay is typically 0,85 - 1,5 w/m, k. Frozen clay 2-2,8 w/m, k. Sand have a wider variety depending on its mineralorigin/water content, particle size, from 0.4 (dry) - 4. Pure quartz, as a rock is around 7.5 w/m, k. At least in my area, we never have pure quartz sand.
I dont think clay is unsuiteble for geothermal heat, it is very common here around. its just a question of sizing of the collector. A house with about 6kW heatpump would proably need around 400 - 600 m collector in sweden, due to long winter.
some more english reference-material.
www.geothermal-energy.org/pdf/IGAstandard/WGC/2010/2952.pdf
The slinky style may be more suitable for countries with a higher average outdoor temp than sweden. Local electric prices and cost for labour is probably changing how to optimize the system too. Its a basic investment cost vs operating cost.
airsouce vs groundsorce is all about air-temperature. Its a lower investment, so if you live in an area with fairly high airtemperature/short winters its genreally favorable with ASHP. In south of sweden its more favorable with ASHP, in the north GSHP is more favorable.
@@bsod5608 Thank you for your reply. You are fortunate in Sweden to have built suitable houses for relatively low water temperature systems. We in the UK mostly live in houses built for higher water temperatures and the cost of retrofitting is high. I used to look forward to my visits to Sweden to see ASEA when they were building the nuclear power plant in Sweden. Later they merged with the Swiss Company Brown Boveri with whom we had projects in the Middle East.
I'm afraid I do dislike ASHP having experienced them when living in Canada. But I expect they are correctly installed and operated in Sweden
Good Luck
Clay is ideal as it holds water which enhances the heat transfer
We had a GSHP installed in Sept 21 and are located in the Hudson Valley NY USA. It is a 5 ton vertical closed loop system with two bore holes each 88 meters deep. On Jan 16 at 4A ET temp outside was -1F or -18.33 Celsius. The water coming in was at 42.5F or 5.833C and going out was 38.9F or 4.39C. The return air was 65.8F or 18.7C the supply air was 86.5F or 30.3C. The temp was set to 68F or 20C in the house.
Do you mind giving us a ballpark of the price and how difficult it was to have installed?
@@scooter_scooter_scooter After all rebates and the Fed Tax Credit it comes in at $21,800 USD. From start to turning it on took about four days for the drilling and two weeks to complete the installation. That included removing an air source heat pump and an oil furnace.
@@chrismaxny4066 Thanks so much.
@@chrismaxny4066 just so you know, just got two estimates, 5 ton ground source closed loop, radiant flooring and heating in a 3100 square foot house- $145,000.00! Not joking.
Our quote was $40,375 and after a discount for cash payment, an incentive from Central Hudson (electric company) and a 26% Federal Tax Credit the price was $21,315.70. The check we wrote to Dandelion was $28,805 as the fed tax credit wasn't received until we filed taxes. We have forced air heating and cooling and a 1800 sq ft home but that still is a huge difference!
Any chance of some ball-park costings Roger? I live in a 4 bedroom detached metal framed house, so can't use cavity wall insulation. I'm sceptical of the benefits claimed for these systems versus my existing gas boiler/radiator & cylinder set-up.
I'd be looking to apply exterior installation instead then - best not to lose heat in the first place than try and warm the air around the house. With power costs spiking at the moment, running the heat pump will also cost more.
There is nothing whatsoever to gain over your gas boiler. This job would cost you £30,000 or more depending on size.
Dont bother, air to air heat pump and combi boiler combination is way to go
Well if the damn USA stop trying to start wars in Ukraine and let Nord Stream 2 start operating then gas will be the cheapest option by far
Don't blame USA you moron. The eu is to blame for the Ukraine problem. So I guess you don't give a fig about the thousands of dead Ukrainians. You are hypocritical, ill -informed, greedy and cynical
next up on skill builder : "How to install your domestic nuclear reactor"
never get planning lol
I don’t think you’ll have the proper license. Lol
The only sensible answer mc sarcasm ! I’m amazed at the politeness of replies typ brits ,
Should be a united FO lol
Just to note. There are still those who are skeptical about global warming and this is mainly due to not understanding what the term actually means. Most people do not equate cold temperatures to 'warming', so;
As greenhouse gases build up in the atmosphere, that humanity has produced and which has been happening for several centuries, light from the Sun is trapped in these gas molecules which causes the bonds between the atoms to vibrate. This vibration produces heat. A warmer atmosphere equates to a more turbulent atmosphere. A more turbulent atmosphere results in more extremes of all kinds of weather. Hot, cold, rain, snow, storms and other atmospheric and climatic phenomena of all kinds.
can any one recommend a company in the UK to install ground source
Thanks!
Thank you Rodney, we love dollars
I served my time on an electricity board and three months of it was spent with Prestcold in Oxford. Their advice on these systems was unless you have a river at the bottom of your garden forget it.
If people are confused about how the ground contains heat, remember it's only cold relative to our bodies. Relative to the liquid refrigerant, the ground is warm as it's boiling point will be well below 0°C
You could also say it contains heat relative to outside at ground level.
One of the main issues with heat pumps is how these systems actually perform in real life, so many reviews and analysis are at the stage of being fitted when everything seems great. As this was done some time ago it would be very interesting to go back and see how well it performed over time, speaking to the owners and looking at running costs over time. That would be far more useful than hearing how wonderful things are before it gets switched on!
We will try and do a follow up
From my experience they use a LOT of electric, plus the install cost, never recoupe that cost ever
@@Ben-in6qh Could it be that your home isn't insulated well enough?
@@Ben-in6qh they do. But they use less than electric radiators do for the same amount of heat.
@@Ben-in6qh I do not think that they use a lot of electricity...it just a pump...also the ground always has a constant temperature...not like the air in winter time
Thank you! Looks like those systems are for the higher echelons. Would love to see an affordable one.
There is no cheap ground source option
@@SkillBuilder DIY
so either roger has let his son do a video, or this video is so old that it just goes to show how far ahead of the curve roger was back in the 90's
whichever one it is, it's certainly an eye opener
It's a video from the 90s he just re uploaded for some reason. He has been wasting time talking with heat-geek lately, probably something to do with that.
@@cuckingfunt9353 well I saw his heat pump rant and I think this makes a good case for why the quick fix ones won't work
@@cuckingfunt9353 that's the 00s not the 90s
Can we get an updated look at GSHP please
Key points works well with underfloor heating. Rads need to be larger than equivalent combi systems so factor the cost in .
how many years would it take to break even on the cost of that? sounds good but not very realistic for your average Joe.
He said above that the system in the vid cost £30,000. Zero chance the average joe like me will have that lying around so it's really only for people who need to heat their pool.
This was filmed before Roger's infamous "bump on the head" that turned him into a "bloke"
I saw this video years ago and downloaded it as it was so interesting. I’m guessing It’s a shame you feel the need to bring it back because people are hounding you with regards to your recent comments on air source. Which I totally agree with. Thanks for the education once more 👌
We brought this video back because it discusses ground source as opposed to air source. The simple facts are that most homes could not have ground source so the main focus of the government is air source which is not as efficient. Neither of these system will give you the same output as a gas boiler. Just for the record, I do not feel hounded in the slightest, I enjoy the debate and the video has had a a lot of views so I am happy.
@@SkillBuilder fair enough 👍
How do these systems compare in the dead of winter, while the ground might still have a temp to extract would it be able to sufficiently heat the house with say under floor heating or would you need to boost the heat as you would with some solar systems
I lived in a house with a ground source heat pump a while back and it was always nice and warm. It was a big system though so probably cost a fortune. My guess is that a smaller system with a boost for the coldest weeks would be more economical.
ground keeps a near constant temperature.
Has a certain 90's vibe about it :)
Thank you for sharing, curious: where do you get those fence-like PE line, only in UK?
HNY Roger - did you find the fountain of youth over Christmas? Where can I find it please?
dang, they put return bends on the compact collectors? in the states they would lay out the pipe in a coil fashion, no hard 90s
What a brilliant solution.
Bury some plastic in the ground, fill your house with plastic crap to insulate it enough to work. Planet saved!
What would be the cost of fitting a ground source system to a detached 4/5 bed house with concrete floor. Walls and roof well insulated, roof space gives us three loft spaces, one along each sides of the roof and a standard loft at the apex of the roof. These have multi layers of insulation and are floored with roof standard chipboard and the roof eaves are also filled with insulation material. We nave now a combi boiled (3 years old and very efficient), an independent 10kw log burner. Windows and doors are double glazed and in some cases triple glazed and in some cases double glazed with secondary glazing and in some cases triple glazed with secondary glazing. We have a modern front porch and a large conservatory. Rear garden is approx 80ft x 40ft narrowing to 28ft. Access to the garden is not a problem and there is considerable parking to the front, paver drive. I need an estimate fairly quickly!
Could ground source be put UNDER roads outside your house? Because tarmac gets hotter than a lawn or garden bed.
You can but it will freeze the road in no time
Does the ground over time cool and progressively reduce the efficiency of the system?
Yes, it can happen very quickly and we have seen cases where the ground has frozen. You can see a potential problem where the pipes run alongside the swimming pool.
@@SkillBuilder Truth is the daughter of Time, Roger!
Ground temp to 2-3 m depth varies seasonally (quite slowly across most of uk). Daily solar gain builds up “heat” , but heat is also being lost via evapotranspiration so there is quite a complex flow of heat in the shallow subsurface (esp if there is shallow groundwater too). GSHP systems are “supposed” to be engineered to factor in soil thermal conductivity (which controls how well the soil will absorb and transmit heat/cold. Conductivity is a function of soil type and moisture content - and these can change considerably with depth - as well as laterally not all soils are as uniform as the one that is this video). If the collector is not designed correctly (too shallow, too closely spaced), then the system can freeze the ground (simply dumping more “cold” than the soil can conduct away) the compact systems really do have to be designed carefully, slinkies - less so. The idea is to strike a balance over the year, during winter you extract heat from the ground, over the summer the ground recovers naturally via solar gain (if you run a reversible system for air conditioning, you can pump heat into the ground- which can cause plant distress as you desiccate it). Generally, shallow GSHP go in about 1m depth (checkout the video - are those folks super short? Walking along those trenches?). As a geologist (with some experience of GSHP in Europe) I think too many of these systems are still being installed far too shallow- installers use shallow trenches because of costs but also to avoid rules about shoring trench walls over 1.2m deep (trench support kit is costly). Thermal gain “sweet spot” for many uk soils is closer to 2m depth not 1m…it’s all about balancing that heat exchange- for which you want a steady temperature that you can work with and deeper is more stable than shallow. If your system is too shallow you may get marginal benefits in spring as the first 0.5m of ground warms up quickly, but you also run the risk of freezing as winter sets in and the solar gain tails off (there is a time lag as well- so it’s complicated ). If your system is too shallow (or you mess up the conductivity calcs) you really are going to end up not getting the COP=4.
Not with a water well system.....much much MUCH less expensive.
Hi, I've already discounted solar as my garden is surrounded by trees, but if gshp needs ground warmed by the sun, I'll have the same problem here too, correct please?
Is this the same Roger but after his anger management counselling session?😂😂
Roger (or anyone) can you recommend a good gas boiler for a two bed flat. Not sure I could sacrifice my kids’ bedroom for a GSHP boiler room.
The deeper you drill, the warmer the ground is, and the extracted heat is then classed as geothermal. So people like me who live in small houses on small plots in cold, dull damp areas of the UK could only dig deep rather than wide.
You'd have to a long way to get more heat
Kilometres for geo and metres for ground source (This for UK with some tiny exceptions).
@@normanboyes4983 So where is the cut-off depth between sun-warmed ground and earth-core-warmed ground (on average in the UK)? Is there a level where it would be pointless installing a circulation system perhaps?
@@KendalSmithy over a kilometre
How many years since this video was made?
In a modest 3 bed house what would be the minimum sized garden for this compact collector to work ? You would also need a rather big room inside for the heat pump and anything else.
nice videos. I've seen quite a few now. Many thanks and great work! One question please, would it be possible for an underfloor heating system to double as a ground-source energy supply for the water immersion tank?. everything would be inside the building, and installation on top of clay.
K
Great vid but how long does it that to pay for itself
Although this was one year ago, it still amazes me how many new builds are not taking advantage of this technology. especially thermal and solar panels on roofs as well as ground-source heat pumps. Near where I live there is a large solar farm taking up valuable agricultural land. So my question is two-fold why do we not mandate in the building regs sola and thermal heat and electric capture. I am not talking about this feeding back into the network, but using it on an individual basis. Or even a small community basis. In the same way, some villages are clubbing together for broadband internet as the big companies are trying to fleece small communities or just to gather government grants only serving the shareholders. We have seen what happened to the water industry mentioning no names.
Roger shall grow not old, as we that watch the videos grow old;
Age shall not weary him, nor the years condemn.
At the plugging of the channel, and the urging to subscribe,
We will remember him...
But not like this 🤣
Brilliant
I didn't know ground source heat pumps could de-age you, might get one 🤔
It seems really stupid to put the forward pipe and return just next to each other and insulate them.
In sweden we dig 2 trenches about 1 m apart, and put forward in 1 and return in the other, and skip the insulation. We only insulate them the very last meter or 2 from the house.
That is a better idea but not always possible. I would get as much separation as possible
It's amazing how well these systems apparently work in much colder climates than the UK, I do wonder why.
Happy New Year Roger. Please may I ask a quick question " how thick is a 1980 concrete floor" single storey extension. I looked through 1976 regs and couldn't find anything. Do you know if any old builders!! I wish to dig in underfloor heating and insulation. I will drill a test hole to double check. I would be very very grateful. x
How much did this system cost?
What if I'm living in an area where ground water is very close to the surface(2m) will the system even work?
It works better with ground water than anything else. The water brings in more heat from the surrounding ground.
What happens to the trees ? They need co2 to live to make oxygen. What about subsidence?
Or just fit a gas boilder?
Would be very illuminating to know the cost of the installation and associated work.
Didn't see one worth having 20 years ago, and even now wearing glasses I still can see one worth having.
If global warming statistics and estimates turn out to be correct by 2030 the average winter tempreture will be -15, heat pumps won't be able to rise to the compensated required heat.
Lovely pipework on show there
Not what you’d call a “minimally invasive” option is it?
No it could do with a bit of keyhole surgery
Your ahead of the game but quite a few years by the looks of things. Luv your show. Keep on top and keep publishing because it’s people like you who the future really take advice and learn from. It goes s long way Thanks.
I’m a very experienced tiler/bathroom fitter if you ever want to come to shoot any video clips.
Except nowdays all he is doing is slagging them off. Whatever gets the most ad revenue
Tricky
The fact that I am willing to tell the truth about air source is not a commercial decision. We could get loads of ads from heat pump manufacturers. Ground source is impractical and too expensive for most homes. Air source works with underfloor heating and high levels of insulation. If that is too nuanced for you then sorry.
@@SkillBuilder it works in other situations too. But in my opinion, you have an agenda aside from the ad revenue here. You are quite right it doesn't work everywhere, but I disagree with the headlines you are chasing discrediting the technology.
@@SkillBuilder Roger come on, you know that's not true, air source heat pumps can work in older buildings as Heat Geek recently showed.
@@patrickwheeler2646 he knows it's not true but it doesn't suit his agenda (Daily Fail)
Great but for the ordinary suburban house its going to be impractical and if installed, very expensive. For me with a back garden 50ft x 50ft max and front 25ft x 80ft I reckon it would have to be a borehole. Then you have to find space for hot water storage and all the equipment. Then all the radiators would have to be upsized. Lastly, how could I get the very hot baths and showers I like, current hot water temp 60c for 'topping up'. Then we have the rocketing price of electric even at 4-1 efficiency. So solar panels and a battery needed. So what are we looking at? £30k plus?
Maybe going down the shops to buy a big coat and some thermals!
Good comment, we are looking at heated jackets in a couple of weeks time
I don't have the funds for this heat pump solution or do I have the space.
Excellent video, keep up the good work with the heat pumps!!
great, but what happens in mid winter when its -5 ???
This isn't Siberia. The deep ground doesn't get that cold.
That's what the back-up oil boiler is for.
@@paulhillman400 So the boiler does the heating when it's cold and the heat pump does the heating in the summer...when it's not required. Lol.
@@TurinTuramber , GSHP is more common in Germany and Sweden, systems there are well established as viable heating and -5 is nae bother….but uk housing stock and some poor over selling means they have had a dodgy start here..stayed in plenty of places where it was more an issue of trying to turn it down/off
One big electric heater how do you get 8 degrees to 30 degrees and the cost is extortionate
Huge amount of space required for all the associated equipment, great for large houses but not for most people and especially for those who live in flats
My problem with ground source heat pumps or indeed air source is their over reliance on electronics to boost their so called electrical efficiency rating
Simple would be better ( old style direct switching rather than inverter driven)
After too many years to mention I have found that modern air conditioning systems ( which Heat pumps basically are) are as fragile as F1 cars against earlier types 1980s
They will be expensive to repair as not a plumbers repair job so new training will be needed or the normal cowboys will be in
Any problem and I bet the first thing the engineer says will be that replacing the unit will be cheaper
It will certainly be easier ( and more profitable) for him
All the electronics are made in China, the units change every 5 minutes and nothing is compatible. Asides from the boards there are lots of other electronics dotted around, MOSFETS' mounted on heatsinks capacitors mounted in motors, loads to go wrong. Even if you go with one of the big manufacturers you will be no better off, parts will become obsolete and the whole unit will need to be replaced. Since the new outdoor unit will no longer be compatible with the indoor system, indoor unit replacement and re connection will be required.
One big cluster fuck every 5-10 years.
@@cuckingfunt9353 Or just go with a Chinese Made System for 1/3 of the Price that has no fancy Inverter Controll and just let it run in steady states. That is my Plan. Everything else will be done via a regular Boiler. I fully agree with your statement. Just go as simple as it can be. My last Gas Boiler lastet almost 30 years, the one what replaced that old buity will be gone in latest 15 years.
One of the easiest ways to transfer heat from ground sources is with ground water if there is a sufficient supply the earth readily gives up it's stored heat and the cold return can be put back just as easily. Heating companies seem to steer customers away from this type as it cost a lot less. Cheers.
I don't understand why it's necessary to insulate the lines going to and from the field. Why can't the supply and return be run on opposite sides of a 24" trench and serve as part of the system? Picking up heat along the way? It's essentially the same thing as linear pipes in the field.
This trench is narrow and runs along the side of a swimming pool. Not everyone has the room for a 24inch trench and even if you do it can freeze.
@@SkillBuilder So if you have room for a 24" trench and can bury it as deep as all the other lines, the supply lines should not be insulated and therefor figure positively in the heat calculations, correct...? Seems like this would be the preferred option.
Also, I know you have a bone to pick with air source heat pumps but a German engineer type fellow I've built stuff for for years over here in california is telling me Viessmann is coming out with a new model that is ridiculously efficient. Are you aware of this and, if so, what's your thinking? It sure would be a lot easier to go with that thing than doing all the digging. I've got plenty of area to work with but none of it is flat.
By the way, thanks for responding.
I’m confused the last videos of yours that I watched you were raging about how bad heat pump were?
This is ground source and it works better but this is not what most people will fit. The air source is not as good. I said in this video that insulation is the key.
How about the Solar hot water Roger? Any good as a secondary DHW top up?
I have solar hot water, it is great.
What year was that filmed. Going by the excavators I’m guessing 15 years ago
spot on
How has it performed since the video was made?
We will find out
Blooming el Roger. I thought the couple of beers was playing tricks on my eyes and hearing 😄
Hope them heat geeks see this 😉
They saw it ages ago. I think they agree with me on almost everything. Heat pumps in well insulated buildings work but they are still no match for a boiler.
Roger! You have gotten younger! Waw!
Had a bit of work done Roger?
How much was the cost of the project?
This is at odds with your recent "expose" on heat pumps....so which is it Roger?
It is not at odds at all. We put this video back up to show that ground source is a lot better than air source because a lot of people were saying that in the comments but we show that even this system is not enough to heat this house in the winter because it is poorly insulated. Without the backup boiler, ground source is not economic or practical for most homes.
Didn't you do a couple of other videos saying these weren't great?
Yes air source primarily but here I still point out that the boiler is back up.
Wow!! That must have been hugely expensive and totally inappropriate for the majority of properties in the UK. I live in a two bedroom terraced house built around 1900 ( 2 or 3 bedroom Victorian terraced houses are very common to most UK towns and cities). Internal wall insulation wouldn't work and exterior at the front only any good if the whole row had it done. Would maybe work at the rear? As far as heat source for water and heating I'm kind of stuck with gas or electric both of which are becoming more expensive very quickly. My rear garden (yard) is a sun trap in the spring and summer so it's a shame there's not some way of capturing this heat and storing it insulated under the house for winter use. I've no idea how this could be done or the longevity of heat held in storage systems. Are there any case studies for UK terraced houses and methods to insulate and heat such properties?. Only other option I can think of is knock them all down and start again!
Treble
I agree with all you say and storing heat under ground won't work for that long. I think we need cheap energy, that should be our goal and there are lots of people working towards it.
You can buy ground mounted solar PV panels and storage batteries. That would help with the rising electric costs
Great idea in theory, but with a COP of four, assuming it manages that consistently, and present electric prices, natural gas is still cheaper (4p/kwh vs electric at 22p/cop of 4 = 5.5p/kwh)
If you have gas, stick with it.
For how long? Gas prices are soaring and the stated government policy will be to reduce the differential between gas and electric costs per kWh in order to encourage the production and use of electricity and via wind and solar to deliver the reduced carbon emissions targets.
The situation is particularly acute if you live off the gas grid. Since moving into a property 5 years ago, supplied by lpg tanker deliveries, the cost per litre has risen from 32p/l to 55p/l. It has never dropped in that time only plateaued for brief periods before rising again. I can't imagine this trend changing, only continuing.
@@WirelessGriff Do you seriously believe the 6x difference between gas and electric, that based on the expected wholesale price increases in April of circa 40%, which will undoubtedly be more like 50% when it hits the retail market, making the difference between electric and gas around 10x different are going to be blended into a single rate?
Furthermore, the wholesale rate increase expectation of 40% in April and a further 20pc in Sept are going to make such a colossal void between electric and natural gas, you've going to need devices with an impossible year round COP of 10+ to even compete on basic energy consumption. To say nothing of the capex of course..
Energy prices will change to the detriment of gas - it will be a political balancing exercise to achieve that. Currently the Green tariffs (25%) are applied to electricity and given the pledges at COP26 the logical first step is to remove from electric and apply to gas.
But - I am still installing a new gas boiler in May 2022.
Hello very well presented but you have mellowed? We had several buildings on our land at the rear of the main house with a mixture of half metre rubble walls and brick cavity walls where the original outbuildings had been extended into five three bedroom houses. There was plenty of room for a horizontal loop system but the ultimate decision was one borehole per house.
This worked well but only because we were able to line the interiors with 6" insulation during modification and extension of the original structures.
It was deemed impossible to attempt to install a heat pump in the main house as the half metre rubble wall with normal interior wooden frame and plasterboard would have to be completely stripped and various options of foam/resin etc applied for insulation with an estimated cost of £35/40k.
The five three bedroom modifications referred to cost on average £20k incl 100metre deep boreholes, pump and insulation.
What spurred me to make this comment is viewing your original you tube critique highlighting the potential issues applying to grant aided heat pump installations was music to my ears as i agreed with every single comment you made and I was hoping someone would point to the pitfalls of heat pumps as well as the benefits.
I fear there are going to be many people living in what I believe are unsuitable dwellings for heat pump conversion especially in conurbations where gas boilers are commonly used and could be a very costly mistake both for the home owner and government policy.
Good luck with all your future videos and don't be frightened of telling the truth I see you been taking some criticism from the trade???
Ive got the land to install this, but i dont have the 45k spare.
It's the rain that takes heat into the ground, mostly. Little bit comes up.
Most heat comes down into the near surface crust (solar).
Like a young David Attenborough 😁
Geothermal heating is the same ??
No it isn't. Geothermal is heat generated by activity at a much lower level. Ground source is solar heat stored in the ground
@@SkillBuilder I'll stick.to the plant rooms good old boilers
Roger, you're looking good mate. New Years gym resolution?
This looks like an old video. So given what you've said in other videos about ground source heat pumps, why put it out now? Just an advert for Worcester Bosch.
I didn't say that ground source doesn't work. I said that it was unsuitable in urban environments and most homes can't have it. This video illustrates just that, hence the reason for putting it out.
I bet that's not a cheap install. Crikey what a bit of kit.
Looking good. You must have spent Christmas at a health resort. And taking elocution lessons 😁😁
Perfect video
very informative , thank you
Roger I know you made this a while back just wondering why you've re-released it. I thought in your video about ASHP you mentioned neither those or GSHP worked well enough and that was why you didn't fit one for yourself.
Hi Paul
I put this out because it shows how much work is involved and how impractical it would be for an average home.
I said in the video they were keeping the boiler for very cold days. I think that says it all. Nothing has changed since I made this video.
@@SkillBuilder Thanks for the reply. Heat pumps appear to be a minefield and so dependant on the engineer specing the system. Makes it very hard to make an informed choice.
Arh!! yes I remember the 70's.
What happened to the Roger we know and love, that ranted about heat pump’s being noisy and inefficient and not worth the expense?
That roger stopped getting paid to shill for heat pump manufacturers.
Ground source versus air source. two different things and you may notice they didn't chuck out the boiler. This video actually reinforces everything I said about the foolishness of taking out gas boilers and putting in air source
@@SkillBuilder So do you prefer ground source over air source?
@@koffibanan3099 yes he sure does.
Thanks for your reply Roger. Much appreciated. One question though, does the ground pump require the noisy air conditioning type unit fixed to the building with the fan unit running through the night?
Excellent video. The amount of disruption really comes across. To get to zero emissions we need to use all technologies available. The government needs to properly support these schemes to help householders overcome the disruption barrier.
Word!
Adds to total gdp debt, adds to more inflation, if you can't afford it then that's it
Lol how chill was Roger back then?
still the same, don't take all that ranting seriously, it takes a while to crank me up to that speed.
How about just have wall mounted units for heating and cooling, boil the kettle to wash up and use an electric shower. No need for ground source at all if you don't mind not having hot water coming out of the taps...an air source digital scroll inverter is pretty efficient and you don't need to be a landowner to have one.
Fantastic mate
Roger looks young after holidays
Regards
Faruk
Looking very young mate !
This video is old now.
Now, with there decade plus more experience, roger should do a follow up video explaining, the positives and negatives of such a thing today.
Has this tech improved since you made that video over a decade ago?
We will do more on this in the near future.
Very interesting. Thank you : )
massive house with its own paddock is hardly representative of the majority of uk housing stock.
CoP of 4, or even more may well be delivered on average over the year, but in winter it will drop to 1 or less when system inefficiencies are taken into account.
ie In winter, running costs will be horrendous based as it is on prime electricity. Mind you, in summer you'll have heating and hot water galore 😁
Another point, in Scotland. the sun doesn't shine every day. Well, not underneath clouds it doesn't