Debunking 3 Geothermal Myths
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- Matt got the chance to meet up with Wade, a fellow builder in Rhode Island, who is in the process of installing a geothermal heating system at one of his projects. Geothermal heating systems have been around for much longer than you may think, and in theory are quite environmentally friendly and efficient. But due to a lack of consumer knowledge and the assumed complexity, geothermal still makes up a small fraction of HVAC systems used in America. But, as Wade and Lou (Wade’s HVAC installer) will tell us, these systems are more affordable than you think, and an excellent way to go about heating your house. There are a couple different types of geothermal heating systems, but essentially pipes in the ground circulate a water solution and extract heat energy and transfer it into buildings. If you are interested in learning more about this system, check out the video and listen to what Lou and Wade have to say!
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Here’s another advantage. It doesn’t matter if outside air is 130 degrees or -40 degrees. The geothermal well will never know it. Amazing technology.
I don’t understand what you mean.
@@DylanBegazo the groundtemperature stays constant, basically it takes so long for the ground to heat up/cool down, that the seasons don't meaningfully affect the temperature a few meters down.
Freek Hoekstra ohhh wow. Now I get it. Thanks 😊
You're mostly right. There are several strategies for ground source systems. I assume that you're referring to vertical loops.
The conductivity of the native formation, and the system's contact with it determine the energy transfer.
Designing for the most prevalent usage (heat or cooling cycles) is the starting point. Southern, desert, and basically most of the US south of the northern tier of states are designed for cooling cycles.
Loop placement. Thermal conductivity will determine distancing between loops. The addition or removal of thermal energy by each loop remains efficient as long as there is no influence by the others. The gradient, or flow direction of the water table and any aquifers which are confined below should be considered.
The driller's experience is important. Knowledge of the local geology determines drilling strategies to both advance the borehole and keep the length of it open for loop placement.
Most important is grouting the annular space of the borehole between the loop and the native formations. Voids affect performance and efficiency.
Always entertaining watching this guy that always appears to be clueless. (On purpose, I hope.)
My house was built in 1982 with an open loop geothermal system. It finally malfunctioned in 2013 when the pump malfunctioned because the return well clogged up. I was quoted 5 grand for drilling a new open loop return well and new pump, but I still would be using a 31 year old system. I opted for a new closed loop system with 5 wells drilled in my yard. Around 18 thousand for the wells and system combined, and 7 years later I have a 2000 sq ft all electric home that costs about $175.00 / month year round to heat or cool. Best investment ever. The old system lasted 31 years, let's see if the new one does too!
Have you considered solar to offset the 175? I want to build a House with geo heating and cooling but with solar to offset grid costs...
@@sundeeptalwar My wife and I sat down with a salesperson just last fall about solar and we decided not to do it at that moment because of our son finishing HS and prepping for college and we were setting aside for that. It's not out of the question but just not right now.
I'm curious on the value engineering life cycle cost savings on this system. Lou gives an estimate that the overall system costs 35% more than a traditional system, but he does not discuss the potential cost savings( if any) of electricity. It seems you've saved some money on your electricity bills. Are their any specifics on your return on investment of this system as far as savings in electricity per month?
@@michaelshettig7805 my open loop system was efficient also. I was paying between 185/195 per month year round as opposed to the 175+/- now. The entire system installed with 5 wells as opposed to the 4 the system called for was 19k. I went with an additional loop for easier heat dissipation and it made it more efficient. I am in SE Virginia with a soft sandy dirt so no big rocks to drill through. They drilled 5 holes 200 feet down and installed a loop to the bottom of each and back up and tied them all in through a manifold. The old system used a big noisy irrigation pump in my garage that died, but the new pump is a small little thing that is encased in the unit itself. A 13 deer air to air heat pump would have run me 8 to 10 k installed depending on brand, so the additional 9k I paid will take some time to recoup at 20 or so bucks a month, but as I stated, the old unit lasted 31 years so I think I have time to let it pay me back.
@@mikedixon8741 Thanks for the reply. I'm interested as I provide design build services for the commercial sector north of Houston. I don't see this system much down here, but I will continue to study this as a value option for my potential clients. Thanks again.
I love my geothermal system!! very reliable for nearly 14 years so far.
@chris shick: New construction or retrofit? Im looking into the latter now...
I had to replace my single 6 ton unit after ten years at the cost of $18k. I have since wisened up and now think ground sourced heat pumps are a waste of money. Better off sticking the extra cost into air sealing and insulation and use mini-splits.
@@etekberg my house leaks like a sieve...
@@bikesqump mm Cc g
how cold does it get where you live?
2:00 PRICE
4:00 RELIABILITY
5:55 LONGEVITY
Wrong! We need to listen to the oil funded think tanks that once said that smoking is beneficial for pregnant women and burn their sugar daddies products in the most wasteful and inefficient way possible to go about our lives. That is how freedom works!
Costs have come down from 20 years past. I was involved with two installations and the cost were about 2 1/2 times over typical systems. I must though, the systems worked great. The wells were the extending cost. Glad to see this video.
What was the cost?
John Marquardt : About 2 1/2 times that of the common system.
Thank you from Ireland I have geothermal heating 14 years now. Done it when no one believed it would work. It's been working great even though the installation contractor and the supplier left a lot to be desired. Thank you for the excellent video wish I had you guys doing the job.
Hi Liam, also in Ireland. How much does it cost to run the pumps etc
My Trane closed loop system is 18 years old and still going. Worried about getting parts now if I have issues since they no longer make this system. My loop is horizontal, and my hot water is heated from it in the summer. 3200 sq ft in North east Ohio.
I’ve had two GSHP systems over the last 7 years. The first was a retrofit on a conventional AC and gas heat system. Installer did horizontal boring to get the pipes into the house. Hit the pre dug hole perfectly! In my system the manifold for three wells was outside, only the supply and return pipes came into the house.
When I built a new home 4 years ago, did the same system. 3 ton system with three wells. Used the same WaterFurnace System 7. 12 stage variable speed pump, compressor and fan. Also, takes off the waste heat and preheats my hot water which is stored in a separate tank.
Absolutely awesome system! I pay less than a dollar a day all year to heat and cool a 4,000 square foot home. Eastern Nebraska. Last year total cost was $210.
Couldn’t be happier. I advocate for it when ever I can.
When you did your retro fit protect did you get quotes to put in gas and conventional ac again? I was wondering what a price difference you saw between that and a geothermal install.
Nicholas McKellip , I did quote it both ways. Admittedly, the geothermal was more expensive, but I was able to use the federal tax rebate (which was huge) as well as a much smaller rebate from the local electric utility. It was still more, by about 8%. At that time I was not really planning on moving, so looking for the long term play.
Using payback calculations for the two systems, I was looking at 3 ish years for my system. I was comfortable with that.
The system worked wonderfully and I saw significant savings in electricity. I actually had 10 years of previous electric bills to compare to and keep a spread sheet going forward with month by month comparisons between old conventional and new GSHP. It was playing out as I had hoped for.
I will say that without the fed tax rebate it would have been a much tougher sell on price alone.
We ended up moving, so in reality, I didn’t make it to complete payback time, but it was a great selling point for the house.
Nicholas McKellip , one more comment. If you go with a GSHP system, make sure the company has experience and really believes in their product. Not just a “yeah, sure, we can do that...”
A friend of mine had a contractor that was like that. Let’s just say their experience was waaaay different from mine. They eventually got it right, but it was a struggle.
@@ericwilliams4465 thanks for the info. Hopefully I can find a company that believes in it in our area. Plus, hopefully I can find one that gets me to a similar payoff period. I would be pretty happy with 3 years.
What was the cost of the system for your new home?
8:00 lou's face as matt over pronunciates his exit catch phrase. we feel you lou..
I went back to look at that and I didn’t see Lou’s expression change?
That's some low testosterone. He could be in a K-pop boy band.
Enjoyed this video. Great content. I did chuckle that the two builders are in jeans, long sleeve tees and vests... and the HVAC guy is in shorts and a short sleeve shirt.
The content on this channel mirrors areas of interest and helps answer questions by having experts explain in plain English the systems and why they designed or completed the project the way they did. Always interesting - keep up the good work.
That's Ricks brother from Pawn Stars... 🤣
Are you sure it’s not his twin brother ?
Does Rick even know he’s got a doppelgänger?
Best I can do is distant cousin
nice to hear the differences in the new closed loop as opposed to the old pump and dump systems, Lou looks like he could drive a well casing by hand.....LOL
Pump and dump? You make it sound like it's not the way to do it.....ground water IS BY FAR the most efficient, and easiest way to have a system that will live forever.
"DUMP"..??? means that you've extracted or added the energy you need......warm in the winter, and cool in the summer.
great video - some more on geo thermal would be appreciated
So funny I never knew there is an open loop system. Been from Germany I always only used closed Glycol loop systems. But much bigger pipes. We ran 2" from the house as 2 pipes and than 4 - 8 times down into the ground to about 40meter so 120ft deep into the ground. because we used bigger well drilling it was cheaper for us about 50% cheaper because we could use Oil drilling drig Companies to just dill for us instead of the much more expensive Well Water crew costs. Haven't checked the numbers in the USA yet but I would bet here it's going to be also cheaper because from the permit and all process it should be half the costs because oil riggers have a much better Equipment and drill 3x times faster into the ground than well water small Equipment Companies.
Open loop systems are rare.
I got a quote of $78K when I wanted to move from oil to geothermal for my 3000 sqft home. No thanks. I went the propane route for $13K (96% efficiency, constant hot water, 1000g tank) and have been really happy since. 6 years now.
@@vipahman 78K who ever gave you that quote was smoking something. On average you get 4 holes drilled cost per hole about 3-4k max so max 12k there plus digging work outside about 4-5k and than the interior work still would come down to less than 30k in costs....
@@lsellclumanetsolarenergyll5071 12k to drill through granite is not unusual in New England. Some of these wells have to be pretty deep and are going through some hard rock.
@@discodench you mean 12k per hole is a normal price for your area when you only drill less than 200ft deep? @vipahman got a 78K quote which I think is double of the price it should be, which clearly tells me the Company who gave it to him must be using a ton of subcontractors and not owning or having good relationships with their subs. Also geothermal drilling holes are normally only 2" in diameter for some odd reason I see a lot do 4" which mean's more than double the costs too. The pipes going into the ground are only 3/4" pipe's so a 2" hole should be just fine it they use the right speed drill Equipment.
Great video as always Matt but I would love to see the heat and circulation pumps too.
I would love to see Matt do a video on the current crazy overly complex roof designs I see everywhere. How are you supposed to control water off a roof like that? What happened to the simple gable roof which made water management so easy? The gutter guys really have some challenges these days.
fancy roof features are a profitable way to make the house look unique.
It looks chaotic. Not a fan.
ever hear about the book, 'the house with seven gables', now they all do.
They talked a bit about the life of those pipes. What is the lifespan of them and the wells? It seems it would be expensive to replace since they are coming in through your foundation. Interesting to hear about the closed loop system and the maintenance benefits of the newer systems.
The life span of these pipes is 50+ yrs.
@@TL-xv9of --that is correct, and may be conservative as the pipes are not exposed to the elements.
I'm not sure if the tax incentives are still in place, but a 30% deduction used to be available.
By what the gentleman said, it would pretty much cover the difference.
I will stress the importance of hiring a driller/loop installer with local knowledge and experience. The contact between the loops and the native formation is most important. Voids will result in lower performance and efficiency.
Welcome to RI!
I've only experienced one geothermal system in an office in Rhode Island. It was a combined system which integrated solar preheaters and geothermal. The geothermal NEVER made enough heat once the temps dropped below 50 and every hole in the roof from the solar preheaters leaked rain and snow. And, when it was cloudy, the preheaters were ineffective. The propane secondary heat would run non-stop from Nov to Apr. Glad to hear the technology has come along.
That poor Office sounds like it was visited by contractors that needed putting in a gibbet out front as a warning to others.
The roof has one basic but important job and that is to keep the weather out, that one sounds a disaster. Geothermal systems are best in well insulated buildings, one that can't even keep the weather out was never going to work and you have to wonder what the owners and the installers were thinking.
@@helenlawson8426 In this case, the developer gave the building design to his daughter for a graduation present for her architecture degree. She was an environmentalist and an artist, but NOT a building engineer.
@@RIBill Lets hope she learnt something from it. :)
@@helenlawson8426 Highly doubtful. She probably went on to design bigger, leakier buildings at greatly increased costs!
Yeah. I got an estimate for geothermal for my house. They wanted $60k. My house is 1600 sq ft with less than 40k btu heat loss. It was about $20k for the wells.
I don't know what they are talking about costs only being 50% higher than conventional. Maybe on these large jobs the cost to drill 4 wells vs. two isn't that much.
If price is your concern, it's cheaper to get an air source heat pump. The increased cost of running that system is less than the drilling cost for the ground source heat pump.
Bummer to hear. My guess is it definitely depends on where you are and whether you need to do vertical or horizontal boring. Either way like you mentioned 60k to 20k difference is gonna take a while to pay for itself even after the 60k is brought down by tax credits. So I think the moral of the story really would be check it out and depending on where you live, house size, and a few other conditions it may or may not be worth it for you. In my case it was well worth it.
@@BirdBuster91 Agreed. I was only able to get one quote.
I imagine the drilling cost where the video was filmed, RI, was extremely expensive. I live 15 miles from the RI border and you can’t dig a post hole without hitting rock.
Why are drilling so expensive in us? In Sweden we pay something like $6000 for a 600 feet well.
I've been a geothermal driller before.
Lou knows his stuff and can back it up !!
He sure can 😍
Hahaha
Sweet, this is going to be a big one for geothermal
If you try to avoid the costs of drilling and your space is large enough you could also go for a trench collector. It offers the same efficiency but at much lower price.
You need a very long trench, but at what depth ?
Something that they probably didnt think of is salt water intrusion on those exposed well runs. Salt water intrusion is a real problem in the northeast for owners who own homes near the ocean while using wells. The well water becomes contaminated by seawater which seeps into the freshwater water table and have to have remediation equipment installed. I wonder if these geothermal runs are rated for saline conditions?
@itsabig Im talking about the well, the well casing, the piping and the glue used at the end of each loop at the bottom of the well. Is all this rated for salt water?
I have a Geothermal system and I kept reading below how many square feet per ton. Here in Zone 5, 3600 sqft takes about 4 ton if reasonable well insulated and sealed.
I always wondered if it could keep up in the extreme cold. My wife love my house at 78 in the winter.
Should be no problem. We keep our Geo at 73 this time of year. It's 34 degrees (F) outside as I write this and my ground loop temp is a steady 52 degrees. The heating mode is running but it's on the lowest (level 1) speed and the whole system is only drawing 808 watts. We had ours installed in 2016 and reduced our household heating/cooling costs to about 1/3 of what they once were. Getting about 1/3 of the cost back in tax credits and incentives from our energy supplier made the cost only about $1500 more than a comparable air-sourced heat pump. The only problem is that nobody understands this stuff and we're thinking of selling soon. It's a question mark for potential buyers, so an increasing number of videos on RUclips like this are nice to see.
These systems are called GEOEXCHANGE, that uses the constant underground temp as a alternative to ASHP
Geothermal is harvesting energy from superheated
Earth way further down than a geoexchange loop field or well, typically steam that drives a turbine generator for electrical power
25 years WOW (Matt) ** My wife and I have been in the same house since 1998 - I guess it's about time to move or blow up the house LOL
My dad is still in the house he bought in 72. Still running the same natural gas forced air unit that was installed when the house was built in 70.
my thought exactly. if those loops don't last 50 years what a joke
#1 Myth - Cost
Doesn’t discuss cost. 50% more than “conventional” equipment. Describe conventional... are we talking 90% gas furnace (cheap and very conventional) or a multi-head VRF air-source heat pump (expensive and not very conventional)?
He said the comparison was to "convention high efficiency systems"...
@@BrendanCBreen High efficiency Gas furnace s can be bought for the cost of one of those wells...I don't feel that fellow was being as transparent as he could have been.
Well at the end of the day he wasn´t talking to some sort of independent expert but to someone that sells the systems. Being to open when it comes to numbers isn´t something they want to do.
Actually pretty much all of his videos have this exact problem. He is pretty much always talking to salesmen and if I know something from visiting conferences and exhibitions... Salesmen often don´t really have a clue :D
Ground source heat pumps have a high up front cost. These installers are salesmen and the +50% cost cited is wishful thinking at best. It's like solar panels; you pay a lot up front and then you save a lot in operating costs. There is a "return on investment".
That having been said, if we would stop treating nuclear energy as a boogeyman, today's energy supply would be so cheap that we could all run electric resistance heat and it wouldn't matter.
Put in 8 geothermal wells 10 yrs ago here in western Pa. Cost of the drilling was 2K/well. Then ran them to two forced air furnaces plus a water circulation furnace (using pex in basement and garage floor). Best decision ever. We’re all electric in a 8000 sq ft house. Winter bills about $550/mo. Summer a/c is about $200/mo.
James - We are looking for someone to do Geothermal and can't find anyone in Pittsburgh. Who did you use?
How deep is the wells? In Sweden we usually only have one well or maybe two for a really big house in the northern part of Sweden (I live above the Arctic circle). We usually drill 180-220 meters (590 to 720 feet) sometimes closer to 250 or even 300 meters but that is pretty uncommon.
Tim Augustsson , in my area in the central US, most wells are only 200-300 feet deep. The depth is dependent on exactly where you are geographically. At that depth, the temperature is pretty stable, about 55 degrees F.
Then, it is typically one well per ton.
Youre probably drilling into volcanic magma!!! Haha, also you probably insulate well.
@@bikesqump Sure not hope so, we have to mines nearby that are more 500 meters and 1500 meters deep😂
@@thenorthernhandyman 1 more centimeter deep and BOOM 💥
I'm in Colorado and 300 feet equates to one ton (heat pumps come in 1,2,3,4,5 ton sizes). Industry supplies ready to deploy double pipes at 360 ft length (to allow connecting wells) so that is what drillers use.
Built one of these systems commercial back in late 80s with my Dad who designed it and I think it was 20, 20ft wells (he owned a well drilling company at the time) without glycol, just water. In the summer building inside was about 65 degrees and you had to go outside to warm up and cost nothing to run. It was closed loop, fused fitting with a heat gun device and redundant pump system.
Odd that it seems that they are just getting to closed loop now and had open loops before, wow that was a bad idea.
They had closed loop systems over 30 years ago. And how did this system you speak of "cost nothing to run" in the summer time?
love the idea of geo source heat pump. With the prices of inverter style mini split units, still makes a lot of sense to go that route. There are new units as you know that will operate down into sub zero weather. For a lot of the country that is a better idea. For those areas that do see extended 0degree and below winters, Geo source make huge sense. In essence they can produce 4-5 times the amount of heating or cooling by using the earth as the real energy source to tap from. Deep wells are now able to be drilled at a much lower cost than even 5 years ago. It is a matter of supply and demand. As demand rises entrepreneurs are filling the need
I still didnt understand what they was talking about..lol..but I love the points they made
quick and dirty explanation--geothermal systems bury long pipes underground. A fluid is pumped into the pipes and back into your house. in the winter, you get energy from the fluid, as the fluid coming out of the ground is warmer than the winter air temperature. In the summer, you pump warm fluid into the ground, it cools down to temperature below the summer air temperature, you pump that back into your house, cooling your house. (it's a big heat exchanger, like the radiator in your car---your car heats up, pumps fluid into the radiator, the air rushing into your car cools down the fluid, the engine gets the cooler fluid back. Instead of air, geothermals use the constant ground temperature to cool the liquid in the summer, or heat the liquid in the winter).
We purchased a geothermal house in Houston that was brand new. The AC repair men were in our community every day for the five years we lived there. I had three Lenox coils replaced in five years as did many of my neighbors. These systems would always break when we went from summer to winter and turned on the heat. It was not a reliable system at this location at all. The beauty of the system was its very quiet and we don’t have that noisy unite outside. But reliability is the biggest concern for this equipment. Also keep in mind these are like a Ferrari. Specialized AC people have to maintain them.
Currently have a 30 year old open system 130 ft deep with only one issue encountered with a fuse. Challenge is finding service/ people with knowledge in the Ottawa area here in Canada. Manufacturer went out of business (not surprised as there is little/no recurrent work once this system was installed). We are very happy customers. We know we are on borrowed time and need to plan for upgrade/replacement. We need to start considering our options. If anyone has experience in our area please advise.
Thank you Matt, Wade, and Lou. Very informative and interesting.
3:15 of COURSE the difference in price is mostly the well drilling. And excavation/drilling is NOT cheap. If you're talking about a fresh system install with ductwork and everything then yeah you might be looking at "only" a 25% increase in price or something. But if you are (much more commonly) replacing a unit, it absolutely WILL cost double or triple. Because the cost to replace the indoor air handler equipment and the outdoor unit would be less than $10,000 easily....but that drilling and excavating can easily cost the exact same or more.
Excavation/drilling can also be very risky. If you live in a karst area (think: limestone caves, underground and not visible of course until you start driling), you run the financial risk of having to dump tons of betonite down the hole to insulate and stabilize the piping. This is a big, and potentially costly unknown.
Each well costs thousands of dollars. So the cost of geothermal is high when you use multiple wells. And the electricity to power those pumps is probably more than a regular heat pump. A closed system is cheaper.
I know a woman who has a house with 13,000 heated/cooled square feet. She has a geothermal system and her highest electric bill ever was $600. She said it's usually in the $300-$400 range.
This Big guy is soo well spoken!
Technically it’s not geothermal it’s a ground source heat pump.
I’m still not convinced on cost, condensing Nat gas boiler cost less than $3k, plus install.
That can do 3,000 sq ft.
Ground source Heat pump over 4 times cost for equivalent plus drilling costs.
I love they are so quiet.
Technically, they are called Geothermal Heat Pumps = GHP's. A GEOTHERMAL HVAC unit can do heating and cooling.
Its not geothermal, its ground source.
There is a difference, many refer to them as geothermal which is inaccurate
Around the world they are referred to ground source heat pumps.
@@pulporock The manufacturers call them GHP = Geothermal Heat Pumps. What YOU call them is irrelevant ...
I didn't have geo, but, I got a heat pump put in. I don't remember the details, but, I asked for a larger one and was told it wouldn't help, the heat pump had to be near capacity to work correctly. In east Texas. In the summer, I couldn't get my house under around 85 f. I will never have another heat pump. My installer was probably just a liar, but, can't afford to make the same mistake again.
I have a heat pump in East Texas. 2000 sf costs under $140 per month to heat or cool for 10 years.
Useful trades professional's experience!
Makes sense on very large projects like that....... as the project scales down to normal 3 bedroom size 1200-1800 ft2 , it does not pencil out compared to mini split heat pump technology. The larger the project the more it starts to pencil out,....commercial has used a variant of this tech for years .
I have never seen it pencil out in a modest sized home unless you figure it over 60-80 years, but the equipment will never last that long, more like 15-30 on the equipment, not to mention any service calls on a system consisting of many many control systems.
I would say it was a smart choice for that project,.........for a 1200-1600 ft2 house it would not be. A standard/modest 3 bedroom house can be covered with 5-6 zones/units with mini split heat pumps in the 1 to 2 k per zone.....6 to 12k total equipment costs . Giving zoning and scalability without additional controls.
The problem with digging deep in to tech like this, is it is changing.......if a person went high end 50 years ago and paid for the premium of a system that would last for 50 years, it would eat you alive in utilities compared to today......50 year old fridges, window units etc etc are perfect examples, they cost pennies to operate compared to old equipment.
Its balance act to straddle quality with replicability.....because every 5 to 10 years you want to upgrade equipment like this as efficiencies are rapidly improving with new tech......if you are super upside down on the payback when a tech comes out thats 50% more efficient, you will be hesitant to dump the old equipment.
If the savings does not pencil out in 10 years or less on anything, its a huge gamble and probably will never break even.
if you had ground water close to surface you could build an open loop geothermal heat pump as a diy project for $600 -$700 with COP 4 some people go even farther they add thermal solar panels to their systems which increase COP even more
The upfront costs are definitely the biggest deterrent. I think it would be great to see more places like this: ruclips.net/video/Uy0SEG36bEM/видео.html
Getting it installed when the house is built, and only having to pay a small monthly fee is a much more digestible option for most people.
Is it possible to pump heat not from ground but from nearby lake or even ocean?
Geo is the best option for Coastal areas. No condenser to get eroded by the salt air!!! Closed loop isn't new... In fact nothing in this video is new with in the last several years/decades.
geothermal is the best option nowhere. they are so much more expensive than air source systems that you would be better off to spend a few thousand dollars to replace the outdoor unit if it indeed got "eroded (sic) by the salt air".
@@paperwait9611 Not true at all. I had a geothermal system installed last year and with the tax credit, it cost me about the same as the most efficient air-source heat pump. 4 ton unit with four 200' wells.
@@91156 ymmv. i got a quote on a geothermal system for my (average sized) house and the quote was $45,000. i suppose if i worked at it hard enough, i could find a way to spend $30,000 on an air-source system, but it would take me some doing! then again, i guess it all depends on how liberally you define "it cost me about the same..."
High price is not a myth! A basic system for a new house (including ducting) is quoted at 18.5k, Mitsubishi heat pump $25-33k depending on configuration, geothermal is $66-70k on a midrange equipment. 2024 prices are wild...
so what did this system cost? 40? 50k? 4 wells?!
When no one wants to say how much it costs then the cost is only affordable to people where money is no object.
Hard to say for sure because its vertical boring. Which is more expensive. Its 4 wells but you can see in video that basically just means 4 loops. Each pair of lines is one loop or well. Depending on how deep they went is how much it costs. By the ocean my guess is they dont have to go far because the soil is going to be very wet down there which is very beneficial for geo wells. All that being said I can tell you I'm building my own home and just had it done here is MN. I need an 8 loop field or 8 well system in this case. All are 300' loops. 7 ton system. Cost 67k for all the equipment and boring. Conventional system was quoted at 42k. So that's a 25k difference before tax credits. After the tax credits of 26% it comes down to 49.58k or an 18% increase. On top of that you actually can wrap as much as you possibly can into that 26% credit. As far as I understand it most the time foam under a foundation can be wrapped into it. Any additional electrical costs can. You basically get 26% off anything that is apart of the "system". Could be wrong on the whole 4 wells == the 4 loops thing but pretty sure they are 1 to 1. If your asking for personal reasons and are interested let me know and I can answer any other questions you might want to know about my system. - Edit just realized I should probably mention I went radiant heat. I'd imagine without that the conventional would of been less making the difference greater. That being said it took them a day to lay all the pipe and if I had to take a conservative guess it maybe costs 3k more.
Should break even when you turn 125.😜
@@BirdBuster91 Wow that's neat to see how far the system has come! My question is how many square feet will your 7 ton system heat? Does it also provide cooling or is it necessary to have an AC unit as well? Thanks!
@@carpentrylover145 😳
If I walk into a basement with a geothermal unit, how am I to tell from that visit if the system is open looped or closed looped?
I get that some stuff in the system will last 25 yrs and the pump might "last" 25yrs, but it will need seals replaced along the way. I've been working with pumps for 35+ years and even in closed loop systems, 25 years is rare. More like 10 yrs between seal replacements. Just buy some now and store them in mylar bags (to keep oxygen and ozone away from synthetics) and you'll be ready for the job when it pops up. Remember, do not contaminate ceramic seals with anything, I don't even get fingerprints on them, certainly not any kind of oil. Once they're installed seated together, their close fit keeps them safe. Also, air in the lines will wear out pump veins, always purge the air out.
Very neat looking and professional looking install.... except for that one bracket that is 1/2 inch off. The things that catch ones eye. C'mon man
Sticks out like a sore thumb.
i worked on a job near Vancouver BC, they just ran the lines in the ocean
Pond geothermal works, yup :)
do you have to drill wells or can you do direct bury at X amount of feet under ground?
If the pump lifespan is 25 years, in today's dollars what's the approximate cost in time and materials to replace whatever will need replacing in 25 years? Also, what's the projected lifespan of the pipe, especially the sections that go into the wells?
The most common estimate I've heard is 50 years for PEX and up to 100 years for ABS. I didn't notice if they said specifically what they were using for this house.
@@seanpalmer8472 thank you!
Informative as always! Thank you
i wish Lou would make his own video about all there is to know about GT heating system.
Interesting, thanks. I am wondering if one can use glycol in closed loop with air heat pumps into a geyser / heat tank that has heat exchanger elements
When I see a video that affirms the preconceived notions I already had, I instantly click Like, lol.
Any folks have experience installing this type of system in a sandy coastal setting? I am on cape cod near a spring fed pond so I am thinking that a there is a heat sink, heat source quite close to the surface. Also, any thought on who to ask about potential environmental concerns.
I get more high bill complaints, for electric, when the outside temp drops below 35 degrees and the geo thermal can’t keep up. My suggestion... more insulation and a wood stove, a much more affordable option.
The pipes have a lifetime of 50-100 years.
What kind of Coefficient of Performance (COP) are you getting from this system, and how does that compare to air source heat pumps? Air source is so good these days it seems like it would be hard to justify the cost of all the extra drilling.
the big advantage with geothermal is when it is really cold outside you dont need restive heating
@@niklasxl there are mini splits available now that work down to -13F. I just don't see the need for geothermal in most places.
@@mattv5281 yes they have gotten a lot better but depending on how far north you are it might be cheaper not to have to run resistivity heating at all when it gets bellow -30 C a lot of the nights. but yes sometimes airpumps are a better fit
High efficiency Air Sourced Heat Pumps average ~3 COP (depending on climate zone)
High efficiency Ground Sourced Heat Pumps are above 5 COP
Matt V, during the polar vortex of 2014 it was -40F for a week in Illinois.
I have witnessed a highly engineered vertical well system fail miserably. Use some kind of horizontal layout. Copper laid in a sand bed and proper fluid chemistry will outlast the water source heat pump.
I really want some apprenticeship in this technology.
Lew is real life Homer Simpson.
D'oh!
but smarter!
How can this be cheaper than electric heat, and investing the difference into solar panels?
400%+ efficiency, its cheaper in the long run
A lot do both. Heating with electricity is very consuming especially an entire home.
An N absolutely, but the difference between the geothermal cost and tradition gas/electric could purchase the required solar panels to make it self sufficient.
@@gooseseey4687 Or because its efficient you need less solar. In the end the prices may all even out. Never the less if you go both solar and geo your far more efficient. Might not save you any more obviously but still better in the sense that both systems are working less hard to provide the same outcome. Your thought and question isn't invalid though and is worth investigating.
Is it a rule that if your name is Lou you have to look like you want to fight everyone you meet?
🤔
Lou spits FACTS
How about the number one myth! Ground source heat pumps are not the same as geothermal. Ground source heat pumps are different from geothermal. Geothermal uses latent heat from the core of the earth our planet used to be a ball of molten rock and it’s still hot from that. Ground source heat pumps use the sun’s energy, which is stored in the near surface ground as heat. Calling a GSHP Geothermal is like saying you have an on-site fusion reactor when you have a solar array.
So how long would you expect a well and pipe system to last?
ardenthebibliophile He clearly said "several decades"
@@spencerwilton5831 yep, looking for something a little more accurate than that. We talking thirty years? Fifty? Seventy? All are "several"
The real myth is that nuclear energy is unsafe. Today's "fourth generation" reactors are literally incapable of melting down, and they can actually consume older reactors' waste as fuel. We have the technology to realize the original promise made in the 1960s: that electricity could be made so cheaply that it could be billed at a flat monthly rate instead of metering it. At that point it wouldn't matter if we heated our homes with electric resistance heat.
Not to mention the number of people negatively impacted by pollution from coal power plants dwarfs the numbers who have been impacted by nuclear meltdowns/leaks.
1960's era reactors are still safer for the general public than coal plants if you look at the actual numbers instead of buying into the fear mongering from the media.
So are you OK burying the spent rods in your community/state?
@@UVJ_Scott I'm more ok storing nuclear waste near my community in the best containment systems we can create, than continue sucking pollution from coal plants.
"Coal is responsible for over 800,000 premature deaths per year globally and many millions more serious and minor illnesses." endcoal.org/health/
Obviously that website has their own agenda, but if their numbers are even one tenth of reality, then coal kills more people than I want to think about.
@@UVJ_Scott also, from Wikipedia regarding Chernobyl:
"There is consensus that a total of approximately 30 men died from immediate blast trauma and acute radiation syndrome (ARS) in the seconds to months after the disaster, respectively, with 60 in total in the decades hence, inclusive of later radiation induced cancer.[2][3][4] However, there is considerable debate concerning the accurate number of projected deaths due to the disaster's long-term health effects; long-term death estimates range from up to 4,000 (per the 2005 and 2006 conclusions of a joint consortium of the United Nations) for the most exposed people of Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia, to 16,000 in total for all those exposed on the entire continent of Europe, with figures as high as 60,000 when including the relatively minor effects around the globe. Such numbers are based on the heavily contested Linear no-threshold model model. [5]"
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_due_to_the_Chernobyl_disaster
@@UVJ_Scott I already live near a nuclear site. Doesn't bother me a bit.
I am new to watching your videos but I tried looking through playlists, but I'm looking to start working in construction and want to start buying tools, looking for longevity and good quality but also necessity, any beginner tool guides? Everyday items? Carpenter belt necessities?
I wanted this 5 years ago when we built, but contractor insisted we also had to instal a second heat source, and our fire place didn't count. Such a shame.
An acquaintance of mine had a geothermal system installed. It must have been a lemon, as it would stop working and take a month or two to get fixed. All that time, it was running on very expensive resistance heat. The contractor must have lost his shirt on maintenance and went out of business. No one else would service it, so she had to replace it with a gas furnace.
@@johnhaller5851 dang, that would suck.
25 years is not a long time when compared to my grand mothers soildfuel water and heating which was bit in in 1948..its 2021 now and it still running
My fathers gas central heating boiler lasted 48 years
I've gone to your Build Network website, and unfortunately, the videos there are not captioned. I could not check out the mechanism of the geothermal system there. I don't know who you use to stream your videos there, but do they have something like RUclips's auto caption option? Thanks!
Do you have to reinstall the system after 30 years?
This system is perfect for people who have a lake or pond because they don’t need to bury the tubes. Simply toss the tubes into the water and save $10-20k on installation.
Water at the bottom of lakes & ponds stay cool in summer, and warm in winter.
If only people knew this one simple trick fish have known for millions of years.
Plus the thermal efficiency is better when the tubes are surrounded by water, so less tubing is needed, and less tubing equates to more efficiency with the pump. The pump won’t need to run as much, or push as much fluid in the tubes, and longer pump life results as well.
So what happens after 25 years and the pipes need to be replaced? How much did that cost?
Pipes stay in, you repair / replace the HVAC unit in the basement ...
Use RUclips chapters please
So we can share each chapter
...guess you better watch where you plant the Trees. ...man, looks like a lot of angles, joints with potential to leak..?
no
Can we install it in cold and cloudy climate, where it rains throughout the year?
Can someone explain to me how this works using a fluid. Fluids can't be compressed. So how is the temperature raised from 50 - 55 degrees to ~70 to heat the home?
As far as I know, you still have condenser loops like a traditional heat pump, but instead of an outside radiator unit you pass the heat to the water (or the other way around).
The liquid is only there to transfer the heat from the refrigerant to the ground or viceversa. The refrigerant in the heat pump does the heating/cooling.
From my experience as a stationary engineer for a large office building, the heat pump still uses a refrigerant to pull the heat out of the warmer water thru a set of heat exchangers. Similar process we use to cool a building, where we use a closed loop chill water system which the compressor chills 55 degree return chill water from the air handler coils down to 45 degrees. The heat drawn from the return line is then exchanged into the condenser water line which then feeds to a set of cooling towers where evaporation releases that heat. I presume this acts in the opposite and uses the warmth of the earth as to heat the water, which then exchanges that heat into the refrigerant of the heat pump and is then compressed and concentrated and pump thru evaporator coils of the air handler. In other words, it uses water as the condenser instead of air like your typical air-sourced heat pump. Water is something like 15-20 times more efficient at heat transfer than air.
This operates the same way an air conditioner does. Instead of exchanging heat with air, it uses the ground. The water is the medium used to exchange that heat.
In laymen's just think of it like the cooling system in your car. Instead of it pushing the heat out to the radiator and into the air, it uses a "water" to "Water" radiator system and then using the ground like a big ass radiator.
This is nice in a new, upscale, big, fancy house with a good sized lot to run all that piping, but what are you going to do in more dense neighborhoods with 2000 or 3000 sq ft. lots?
Dandelion are one option for those sizes of houses. This Old House did a good program on them...
ruclips.net/video/IMO9jvwlHFg/видео.html
There website... dandelionenergy.com/how-geothermal-works
An intro would be nice. All I know about geothermal, is that they use it in Iceland to pump heat out of volcanos...
Can you produce electricity for your home with geothermal energy?
No, not from a Geothermal HEAT pump - they use electricity ...
@@MrSummitville So there isn't a way to use geothermal energy for producing electricity in general?Or is it just too expensive?
@@_matis_ I do not know of any residential device or method that can to easily and/or cheaply convert Geothermal Heat into electricity. In residential areas, typically they do not drill deep enough to reach 300° F and higher temperatures ...
www.eia.gov/energyexplained/geothermal/geothermal-power-plants.php
Please don't ever call it geo thermal, this is incorrect. Geothermal energy is hot earth gas. This is ground source heat pumps....
Geo means earth, thermal means heat, this is using heat from the earth. Weather water is turned to steam or a heat pump is used either could be referred to generally as geothermal. Hot earth gas isn’t a thing though.
@@floshey look it up noob
Could the water from a well be filtered and stored in a tank that is located under the garage of the house? In south Texas the groundwater temperature is about 72F, but using better insulation and air leakage control makes more sense. There is a location in this city that was famous as a resort for hot wells, but that's not the case in the neighborhood that I live in.
@@floshey You aren't wrong, but you're not looking back far enough in time. With both ground source heat pumps and geothermal systems you pull the heat (energy) from the ground, that much is true. BUT: With Geothermal systems the energy comes from the earth (as you correctly said), from geothermal activity (think hot springs). Ground source heat pumps draw energy from the upper layer of the ground in areas WITHOUT geothermal activity, the heat in the ground actually comes from the sun warming the soil/rock over months and years.
Edit: That said, call it whatever you want, it doesn't really matter. 👍
Geothermal is the term used for this system by industry. www.trane.com/residential/en/resources/get-inside-look-geothermal-hvac-systems-energy-efficient/
Would it be possible to use geothermal in conjunction with a HRV/ERV? Would this be wise? or would this needlessly cost more for your monthly energy bill?
Lew doesn’t know what to do with his hands.
What do you mean? He built a geothermal well system. Probably not his first either. Looks like he knows alright how to use his hands. Good on him.
And that is someone I would hire. He is also wearing shorts,and knows his business.
Confused , 4 1-1/4” pipes flow more than double a 2”
Err Those pipes look just under the top soil
so minimal temp difference isn't 6 feet + down the goal.
Matt,
I am starting a design for my new house build in Dallas, TX. Would it make sense to pair geothermal radiant in floor cooling and heating with hempcrete walls? Definitely interested in both options but would it be a smart move to do both?
Insulate your house. Use three pane windows. Maybe use icf. Put a radiant barrier around the house in Dallas. Do not use liquid in floor radiant especially for cooling. It is expensive, can leak in your slab, and the cooling can condense humidity. Put in floor electric wires in the bathrooms if you want warm floors in there. Use air to air heat pumps or standard ac with gas. The passive stuff is where you will really gain efficiency and a comfortable house. The mechanicals are nothing but a pain so keep them as simple and standard as possible.
Hey Matt! Love your show, been a subscriber for a while. What are your thoughts on pre-fab construction? I'm a mom&pop real estate investor with several single-family/duplex rental properties but I am considering developing on land using pre-fab to either sell or rent out. I'm hoping pre-fab would cut down on cost and simplify the process, but not sure what the realities are. Are there any pre-fab companies you would recommend that service NorCal and do you think it would offer cost savings for a developer? We built our house and we're not newbies to the process of building but are certainly not pro developers and would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks!
Are you referring to houses that come in sections and assembled onsite? My brother's neighbor had his whole house assembled in 3-4d days pre-fabbed walls. It was quite amazing and there was a small savings of around 15-20% for that particular part of the job.
When they discuss cost, I really think this is poorly done!!
The cost of the duct work is the same.
The cost of the equipment is definitely NOT the same.
The cost to drill a well, or wells, is extra.
The operating cost is different depending on the heat source of the non geo equipment.
Another thing not mentioned is service/repair. On specialty equipment, that means higher efficiency or something not normally found in the everyday home, those costs will be more.
I agree. I would like to see a few more detailed (as in spreadsheet of total lifecycle costs) analysis of not only installation cost and operation cost, but maintenance cost. If you have a break in one of the well pipes, you are talking probably at least $1,000 to get a backhoe out to did it up, find the problem and then repair it. And if this happens in the winter, good luck finding a contractor to do that before your home freezes up.
I agree with the energy efficiency of geothermal, no question that is great, but my concern is longer term maintenance and repair cost. My forced air gas fired furnace is super simple to maintain and repair. No water to corrode or leak and cause damage and everything is easily accessible for maintenance and repair. I have in-slab hydronic in my workshop and it is great for that application, but boilers are simply more maintenance intensive than furnaces and when something goes wrong in the winter, you need to fix it soon before the unit freezes up. Hydronic has advantages and is easier to install than a ducted system, but I’ve never heard of a home getting $10,000 of damage from an air leak from a duct. 😁
So, what is the cost of a Geo-Thermo HVAC ( equipment ) vs the cost of High-Efficiency Nat-Gas with A/C ?
The operating cost of Geo-Thermo is LOWER, for 25 years ...
@@MrSummitville I suspect it varies greatly and each home would have to be evaluated individually. It also depends on fuel prices. With NG at historically low levels and looking to stay that way for some time, I suspect the payback of geothermal is questionable in many locations. However, the only way to know would be a detailed analysis and people seems to rarely do that.
@@MrSummitville This article suggest that geothermal is rarely cost effective for a single family residence. www.ecohome.net/guides/2349/geothermal-heating-and-cooling/
@@MrSummitville
And the cost of the wells is factored in?
The reliability?
In my limited experience, geo is less reliable and the repairs are far more expensive.
People usually don't remember the cost of wells, either.
This looks like a monstrous house with complex ductwork so wondering of a plain old minisplit system would make more sense for a modest well insulated house with a simple floor plan.
Once you get the geothermal lines in the home, everything else is essentially the same. No difference in air ducts, etc. The indoor mechanicals are the same size as most conventional systems....
A couple of key things they didn’t mention.
Geo systems have much lower operating temperatures, so an air handler might discharge around 105degF max whereas a natural gas/propane unit would be around 145degF.
This means it takes longer for the hating system to reach a ‘set point’.
That’s why most geothermal installations utilize radiant floor heating, the larger surface area and ‘whole room’ coverage means that lower operating temperatures aren’t a problem. It’s a much nicer, more even heat too.
Also, drilling can be very expensive depending upon location. In my area, there are only a hand full of drillers and it’s as if they have formed a cartel - it isn’t cheap at all. The electricity company offer no incentives and the kWh price just keeps increasing. Compared to natural gas, the operating costs (energy not servicing) are about 40% higher for geothermal.
So, one needs to check these variables for their location to understand if a geo system really does make sense.
Just don't try to install a vertical system over an old underground coal mine. Friends did this in the 80s and apparently ended up hitting lots of voids and had to install a gas + AC unit. Crazy part they were not that far from a large body of water, but really couldn't use it.
We have these new things ... they are called maps ... read the map BEFORE drilling ...
If one brings energy up from underground faster than it's "natural" heat dissipation, won't this increase the equilibrium temperature of the biosphere i.e. exactly the problem already caused by the greenhouse effect?
the greenhouse effect is caused by certain molecules trapping heat close to the earth. Our atmosphere is good at this and it's why we can survive on earth. But increasing the molecules that trap heat exponentially is tough to adjust to, as the system starts to bring us more extreme heat than we have ever seen, and disrupts the jet streams that keep our climate stable. Some of these heat trapping molecules include methane (natural gas) and carbon dioxide.
A greenhouse is hot primarily because of the glass, and because the sun shines.
Great video. These guys have to embrace the sign-off. It's awesome!
If I already have a house, in town, would this be practical, or would it be better to get energy efficient AC/furnace and tankless water heater?
What is your COST to drill the wells ?