I've considered that sort of system before. My concern would be condensation in the cooling pipes. It only takes a little water to create a big mold problem. I think it would be a good idea to run a dehumidifier in the house to limit the amount of moisture that gets into the lines. Dehumidified air also feels cooler on the skin because it's easier for evaporation to occur. Also, if you're cooking or showering in that structure, make sure that humid air is properly vented as immediately and completely as possible so that humid air doesn't get into the lines. Now that I think about it, I think a better system might be to cycle the same closed-loop of air through the ground with a furnace-style heat-exchanger that you pass the house's internal air over to cool it. This way, no humid air can ever get into your sub-surface lines, and if any condensation occurs on your heat-exchanger, you can just clean off any mold that might occur.
add a drain at the lower end of the loop and have it collect in a tank, then add an ozonator that bubbles ozone through a line that ends at the bottom of the tank. Then you can pump the clean condensate out. There's a way to forgoe the pump by using the power of the bubbles in the bubbler to push the water out through small vinyl tubing. ruclips.net/video/dNJTAbS_GBQ/видео.html
Condensation will occur at the "dew point temperature", your local dew point is on the weather report in your area. You can also research ground temperatures range by depth for your area. Cities generally warm the soil 10F warmer than outside that city. Phoenix AZ is about 75F at 10 ft depth underground in September. With weather highs of 97F and a dew point of 43F, condensation won't occur in an underground heat exchanger pipe because the piped air is 97F to 75F, no where near 43F dew point. However, if your weather near Kansas City is 61-83F and dew point of 65F, with a ground temperature is 55F. If the air coming out of the heat exchange is near 65F, you'll definitely be forming condensation in the pipe. Weather can change dew point significantly. The transfer of heat into the ground to return cooling is extremely inefficient because low surface area of the pipe to exchange heat. The industry best solution has been shell-tubes.
@@DavidJones-me7yr The right liquid can exchange more heat than air can. The extra mass of anti-freeze underground would chill and store cold while not circulating in the mornings and be much more useful in the hot afternoons than air can be. Anti-freeze would be more expensive to use than Methanol, but anti-freeze is less toxic and not flammable. Air requires 10x the surface area of a anti-freeze pipe or 12x of methanol to be similar during active use. A DIY air system is very cheap if you disregard the cost of digging.
My wife and I did something similar here in central British Columbia. We buried two 4" PVC pipes six feet deep, side by side and running out seventy feet from the house. Fans pull outside air in, sending some to our bedroom and some to the kitchen. In the winter, minus 30C air is warmed by the earth to plus 10C. In the summer, plus 30CV air is cooled to plus 15C. It works very, very well. If I had to do it again, I'd go a little deeper (maybe 8-10 ft) and make it longer. We do sometimes get a bit of water in the pipes but haven't had any issues. If the run was sloped away from the house and drainage provided right where the pipes turn up to the surface the system would be self-draining. Anyways, six years later, the set-up works quite well.
I didn't really know what I was doing, so I ran the pipes more or less horizontal. About once a year, during a week or more of heavy rains, some water finds its way down to the pipes (ten foot lengths of four inch PVC), which were not glued together. Eventually, enough seeps in to start blocking the airflow. My only recourse is to simply vacuum the water out with my wet-dry shop-vac. Twenty minutes of work, and I'm good for another six months or more. I could have run those pipes toward a slope and down that hill. Then the pipes would be self-draining. I just never thought of water at the time. I'm not going to dig up our lawn to change it now, so the shop-vac comes out once or twice a year. Good luck with your project!@@sheilabicho2989
Just a thought, probably not important but you decide. Blowing warm, humid air into cool underground pipes might cause condensation in the pipes. Condensation may cause mold growth. The air circulating in the pipes and through the potential mold growth may disperse mold spores throughout the structure and into the lungs of anyone breathing the confined air. I would consider a redesign personally. I would close loop the air in the pipes and install a radiator in the cabin to push the warm air through. Not as effective but maybe safer. Even better would be to replace the air in the pipes with something with better thermal efficiency like water with some antifreeze depending on climate and usage. Good luck with your decisions.
Few hundred feet of buried pex/poly pipe using an antifreeze solution would work perfectly. 50w circulation pump + large radiator for the inside portion.
Great plan and execution. Couple of cautions. Run a check on radon from the fan area. And remember in humid weather the pipe will literally fill up with condensate and pump humidity into the cabin. Those two factors ruled out a similar system for my house near raleigh, nc but i am able to pipe the cooler air through my ac to reduce costs there. Good luck and keep on innovating.
Radon is everywhere, and it clings to static, so the plastic pipe will probably collect most of it on the surface. It's also only a concern if it's accumulated in a closed area, like a basement or well, so the amount from an air handling system is minimal. Funny enough, the solution to if you DO have too much radon is... install more ventilation.
@@JustPlainRobBigger fans! More effective than duct tape in this particular application, more power does amazing things! Here in New Mexico, excessive humidity is rarely an issue but it’s good that you point it out. I’d be concerned with mold or Legionnaires Disease in more humid climates.
One could put a dehumidifier in the cabin. I have one in my work shop in Oklahoma and when it’s humid I get about a quart of water every day. During dry times it takes 3/4 days to get a quart out of it.
@@uncledavesfrontier6846 What part of Texas? South and S.E. or even East Texas definitely need it, West, North, probly not so much. Texas Boy myself. S.A. Austin, Houston, DFW Metro, Beaumont, Tyler, Armadillo-Amarillo, lived and grew up all over.
I have worked designing systems similar to this... but lack money to build them. One thing you might not have allowed for is condensation in your underground pipes. The warm air from the house will have humidity that might condensate inside the pipe and eventually the whole pipe will fill with water and become stagnant. Another thing you might not have considered is the dirt near the surface has no water in it... so... even though the temperature of the dry dirt is 50F... it might not hold very many btu's of coolness. If you can bury the pipes down where the dirt is always wet, it might work better. Another problem is the corrugated pipe. That kind of pipe does not have smooth walls.... so... the air moving through the pipe will have turbulance and will not flow as well. If anyone is thinking of doing this... you should do some TESTING of temperatures below ground BEFORE you start. I installed temperature probes at various depths in St. Louis, Missouri. My results are as follows. Temperature at 20ft down is about 60F Winter and Summer! It doesn't change. As you get nearer the surface, then temperature changes depending on the season and the depth. Down here in central Florida, I measured the temperature at about 10 ft down and it is 70F. If you live in the NORTHERN U.S.A. it would be likely 50F. I wrote a whole PDF book about these subjects including a couple methods of cooling your attic from 150F down to about 105F with NO moving parts/NO electricity! Anyone who wants a free copy of the whole book I will email it to you as an attachment... My name is David Mundy and anyone can email me at this email address: framistan@sbcglobal.net Ask for the "U.G.A.C book" and I will send it to you.
Hello Dave, I tried to email you at the address you posted but it says it is undeliverable. I would like the U.G.A.C book. I look forward to hearing from you and thank you very much.
We tried it in Minnesota. Yes it gets fricken hot and humid in the summer here! It works, but after a while mold had grown in the pipe and it was abandoned. Now I’m too old to try it again.but I still can’t think of a practical way around the mold.
@@michaelnelson9140 I've thought about venting basement air into my attic in during the summer here in Alabama where it's also extremely humid. I considered putting an S-trap in the duct with a small drain hose to the outside. Never did it tho, mold is no joke
So, a consideration to note on the earthships here in New Mexico, the geothermal tubes are open to the outside for a few reasons, one is to prevent too much condensation build up, and the other is to allow a cross breeze to be your main air mover instead of a fan, so you use little to no power at all. Most earthships will have an attatched greenhouse, or at least a roof peak vent. All the hot air in the house will move to the upper most vent in the greenhouse/house and leave, pulling in fresh air through the geothermal tubes, pulling in that cooled (and typically drier) outside air, with no moving parts, although in some cases a fan may be used for extra movement if needed. These are also used for very light heating in the winter, as we have moderate winters, much like Texas. This will still work in this set up, but just as others have said, condensation is worth considering, but most AC systems have to deal with that anyways. These systems work the best in highly insulated buildings with very little temperature fluctuations
Building an earthship now, I think this makes a lot more sense because it’s recycling already cooled air. If it get muggy, you could add a vent at the end of the exterior pipe that you can open at night to let fresh air in
Dude! Finally, an off-gridder who made a sensible and cheap solution at last based off geo-thermal cooling! I love it, great detail and explanation. One question though - have you thought about doing any filtering to prevent dust build-up? I get that it's a cabin and you don't expect HEPA air indoors, but don't discount the additional work a dirty fan motor has to do - your power consumption will take a hit.
@davidgentz1731 cleaning the fan is easy. However, keeping the entry of the pipes filtered will keep the pipes from getting dirty and possibly moldy over time and the last thing, it keeps the fan Clean which really isn't important. Ceiling fans gotta get cleaned all the time.
I would only run this in a closed system. You could use an HRV to do this. You'd run the underground loop across one side of the coil and then the interior air across the other. This would massively reduce mold, mildew, radon, etc issues. HRVs can transfer like 50-75% of the heat so it would work super well
HRV does not run a closed loop as it exchanges outside are with indoor air but reduces temperature & humid difference. I suppose an HRV could be modified for a closed loop system. FWIW, ground system could be hydronic and use a water radiator for heat exchange. A hydronic pump would not need a lot of power.
If you put the air intake closer to the ceiling you'll find it much more effective and efficient. As level is evacuating near the same temperature air as it's imputing. Heat rises cool air falls In thinking about it the air output should be head high also that reduces the hot zone by increasing the cooler area. Im impressed because I am guestimating how much site development will cost ie;solar and battery storage. Ill need and a fan is cheaper and easier to run than a ac unit . Could run a fridge on the savings in energy.
My cabin is all off grid. I have solar power and water is from rainwater collection system. The more I can stay away from government control, the better.
this cooling system was abandoned in europe because off condensation and mold problem... even silver coated pipes didnt help... the only good possibility is to dig water circuit pipes and pump water to ceilings or a cooling unit in front of recuperation unit... i have the ceiling version and it works good and consumes around 18w of energy
I had an eccentric friend that buried 4” pvc 6 feet deep . He ran it about 75 yards from his home to his creek fed pond. He ran it to the middle of the pond and elbowed it to exit the water in the pond. He ran it to a box with a cheap box fan. The fan was pulling the cooler air into his house. His house was a dome home built in Mantachie, Ms, by Joel Nichols.
Brilliant design. We do something similar in an earth sheltered home and livestock housing in the Ozarks. It is completely passive, where warm air rises through vents to the outdoors and cooler air is drawn in from sunken pipes. We often have to shut the vents to keep it from getting too cool. This is based on the vent design of my unairconditioned familly home in Florida. The intake vents were all along the bottom of an outside facing wall, sheltered by foliage. Lots and lots of foliage. The upper vents let warm air escape and drew the cooler air in. If there had been sunken pipes we could have gotten better than the average summer temperature of around 78 degrees indoors when normally it would be nearer to a hundred degrees. It made the northwest facing side of the house much more bearable without HVAC. Downside in Florida was the wear and tear on the small screens and the humidity and moisure affecting the jalousy mechanism of the vents.
Cool setup! I'm looking into the efficiency of a recirculating water system going to a radiator with a fan blowing over it. My soil temps are a bit higher here.
At the very beginning he states the approximate ground temp of 52 degrees, then said he used 100' of pipe. Best case senario, 100' plus the length above ground. Realistically, he likely bought a 100' roll of the 6" pipe he used (mentioned later when talking about the fan that pulls the air through the pipe) so 85' +/- buried. I'd guess not much over 250 sf of living space to be conditioned so I'd use that as my starting point....except I only watched it because it seemed a pretty simple, but not easy project, unless you happen to have a backhoe. Kudos to Uncle Dave and his low budget cooling project. I am mildly curious about mold and mildew being sucked into the cabin, though.
@@uncledavesfrontier6846 ✌😁i obviously didn't listen properly. I am off grid and farming, and mould really can be a prob to not discount. Wishing you the best!
@@uncledavesfrontier6846 Here's what I don't understand: A dehumidifier is just an air conditioner that dumps the heat back into the same air it just cooled. You can get the same de-humidification affect PLUS the benefit of cooler air, by just buying a normal air conditioner and using that handle both the cooling AND de-humidification of your cabin. To me it makes no sense to burn electricity running a de-humidifier (Which actually creates heat inside your cabin) when the same electricity could be used to run an air conditioner that removes both the humidity AND dumps the heat outside instead of back into your cabin. You would get a lot more BTU's of cooling by just using an air conditioner in place of the dehumidifier, for the same electrical input, and you wouldn't need to rent a backhoe and bury 100 ft of pipe 4 ft deep.
That's a great system! I'm glad that you're already aware of the potential for mold growth. One way to mitigate that risk would be to pick up an ozone generator and once a year, sanitize the air in the cabin and pipes. I would remove anything biological from the cabin that you don't want dead (people, pets, plants, etc.), close up the cabin and with the AC blowers running, fill the cabin with ozone. I'd let the ozone generator run for 24 hours, then let the ozone dissipate for three days after, opening the doors on the third. This is how I've removed mold from basements particularly and older structures (especially before upgrading it with a vapor barrier and vinyl siding), and in a system that is likely to produce mold, the ~$750-$1,000 for the investment in the ozone generator could well save the occupants from a major health hazard in the future. Anyway, I'm enjoying your channel and you've got a new sub!
Just some helpful advice. Insulate your pipes all the way to the ground and also,, run a dehumidifier. These geothermal mass air flow units will start to sweat and cause some bacterias to grow. Happy off grid
Glad to read in one the comments that you’re running a dehu. I live in sunny FL and that is the main thing most people don’t understand. I hope your cheap solution will work for a long time. This being said, geothermal is ok but can stop working after a while because of ground heat absorption saturation depending on the type of soil so good luck to you.
I had an idea like that could be more than 20 years ago but I could never talk my family into doing it? Don't have a backhoe,, but the neighbor does! Another idea that would definitely help in old style rafter buildings is to sheet off possibly even insulate the bottom side of the rafters, not in between. Create a manifold at the top on the south side of the building, then an insulated pipe to take it down to the air vents in the rooms. Probably a little huskier fan would be needed, but you could have warm air during the day during winter time.
The Romans had a similar setup only without the electrical part. They built a chimney on the opposite side of the house that was painted black and let thermal conduction move the air for them. Their intake was also open on the far end, so it wasn't a closed loop system as yours is.
I never thought of anything like this. One thought I had was using a small pump to pump ground water through a heat exchanger to cool air circulating through the house and let it drain back to the well, but I suppose there would be a contamination issue there.
I was going to do this back in 1982 when I built my dome house, but decided against it because of the worries of radon, humidity, mold, and trapped moisture in the pipes. I still think it's a great idea if these problems can be addressed.
Basically what you’ve built here is a very rudimentary heat pump. These are a great idea in certain climates. You can keep your place above freezing with it if it ever gets cold in your area as well. Unfortunately here in Alaska where I live they are problematic because in many areas we have permafrost and the areas we don’t the frost line is so deep in the winter a heat exchange/pump system like this would be a major undertaking using more energy to build than you’d save over several decades. Of course we’d be using it primarily for heat as the days requiring an air conditioner are minimal.
I did something similar but in reverse inside my high tunnel here in Alaska. I pull the hot air from the top of the tunnel and pull it through the rammed earth under my raised beds. I also insulated it horizontally around the tunnel, and then covered the insulation with 6 mil black poly, so that all of the cold rain water sheds away from my foundation. The soil in my tunnel was thawed out in February and I was able to plant seeds in March.
Thank you for the video. This type of cooling has been used for centuries but for some reason is not used in many places here. What kind of pipe did you use and how big is your cabin. I lived off grid in Arizona for over 20 years and regret not doing this. Looking forward to your update. Good job
@@anthonyspadafora1384 After twenty some years off grid I found the swamper to work ok except during monsoon season. Geothermal works all of the time summer and winter and it can be set up as passive so not using precious power.
For cooling you should have you're ducts as high as possible. Like that you grab the hot air on top and cool it down. That would possibly work without the fan because as the air cools in the tube it would loose weight and come out at the bottom end.
I had this idea for a while. Does condensation will build up in a pipe? I think that pipe should be laid sloping away from a cabin with two 45 elbows and T section right in a middle. extended to ground level for vacuuming it (just after first bend right where small bush is at in a video) Correct me if I am wrong
From the Mayo Clinic: Legionnaires' disease is a severe form of pneumonia - lung inflammation usually caused by infection. It's caused by a bacterium known as legionella. Most people catch Legionnaires' disease by inhaling the bacteria from water or soil. Older adults, smokers and people with weakened immune systems are particularly susceptible to Legionnaires' disease. The legionella bacterium also causes Pontiac fever, a milder illness resembling the flu. Pontiac fever usually clears on its own, but untreated Legionnaires' disease can be fatal. Although prompt treatment with antibiotics usually cures Legionnaires' disease, some people continue to have problems after treatment.
I researched all that before deciding on this project. The temp difference isn't enough to cause condensation. I run a dehumidifier in my cabin. I have a filter system now on the air intake. I test the air monthly. Still super clean air coming out.
I plan to do a similar thing in northern MI but will opt to circulate liquid into a thermal exchanger rather than directly using air, in order to avoid mold problems.
I'm building a hobbit house next. With that one I'm gonna do what your talking about. I'll run water filled lines in coils in my pond back into a radiator in the house.
I've considered doing this, but using the air to feed a traditional heat pump unit. You'd need more pipes to get enough airflow, but the problems with getting water into the underground pipe, and mold would not be an issue.
I have seen that done with water pipe 1 1/2 and filled with windshield washer fluid. You just have to bury the pipe deep enough and have enough distance in pipe. Then using a radiator and fan. Have heard that works pretty well.
Hey Dave, I can't believe this idea! I love it and since I haven't decided on a system for the new house, I'm giving this a serious look. I'm in the phoenix, az area and plenty of room to work with. Would it do any good to have the house air exiting into a manifold which would empty into say four 4 in. tubes? Thanks partner, and of course I subscribed!!
It would work better in your area. Yall don't have the humidity we have. I plan to change a few things up on my next cabin build now that I've tried this. Go as deep as you can with your pipe. 4 inch may be a better choice. Make sure the fan you use produces enough CFMs to move the amount of air per square foot. My cabin is 12x24 so I'm not sure how well this would work on cooling a large house. But it's all trial and error and I'll keep at it.
i noticed that this is the first closed loop system I've seen... and kudos to you i would likely do the same thing, have you had any condensation issues?
No condensation issues. It will only maintain temps. So if it gets down to 70 at night, it will keep it 70 during the day. Hard for it to drop temps if you turn it on after the cabin gets hot inside. So i turn it on in the morning
I put a lot of thought and research into a similar idea for my home but was seriously concerned about condensation in the pipes as the hot air was cooled leading to mold, mildew and poor to dangerous air quality. I decided on smooth pipe and a grade downward to a drain before going straight up into my home but never did because of the same reason I don't to many things, lack of funds. lol I did put a temperature sensor in the ground last year and an 8 ft depth and programed an app for my phone to record the temps year round. I installed it in Jan if you can believe.... it was an unusually warm winter. In the 10C area then and up to 13.75C on Sept 21 funny thing the temp kept dropping until mid April to 3.5C as the temperture outside warmed. My ESP32 micro controller stopped working in through May and I was too lazy to figure it out until June... Ahhh Fudge it's 4:20am and I just realized I broke my phone screen while I was replacing my tarp shed cover yesterday!!
It's been a super wet spring/summer/fall around here! Lots to do but can't get 24hrs of dry above 10C weather to paint my solar furnace rack and hen house. I had to run the furnace to warm the in floor heating last night! @@zombieblaster5754
Hey, I know I'm late but corrugated tubing collects and holds condescension. That condescension grows mold and other fungus. You can use a shopvac, string and a rag to clean every season or when needed. If you can afford it use SCH 20 pvc or install a stripped copper ground wire in the pipe to help fight mold.
heads up to anyone trying this. i did this but used clay pipe, works great and adds a little humidity as it can be very dry where i live. i went from 86F inside down to 73F and the humidity went from 37% to a nice 46%.
The Earthships in NM have these. They work well but the outside air is dry. How do you handle the condensation? I spit out my drink when you said TX was as hot as Satn's rear end. I have to agree with you. I live in north TX & it's been a rough summer. LOL
I haven't had any condensation issues. I run a dehumidifier in my cabin so the air stays dry. I run the dehumidifier for about 2 hours before I turn the system on. No smell or anything like that. I'm going to try a different design when I build the hobbit house.
Good example, for use the advantage of thermodynamics to redesign. Place the return vents lower and supply (cold vents, higher so you defeat stratification. It will create a more even mix of air than coming off the same pipe. I might have had two runs of pipe with a heat sync medium running opposite ends of the building Another consideration is to use Cinder blocks and seal with a water proof wrap. It will take the structural loads and is an excellent heat sync to the earth.
I've experimented with thermal mass too. The problem that remains is the same one Carrier struggled with...the ambient air temperature must be lowered to below the ambient dew point temperature....and thats going to take an input of energy..Carriers first movie theater was cool, but the people filled it up with water vapor and it got sweaty real fast. Some method to condense water vapor will be necessary in all but arid conditions.
think of a lab experiment: moist dusty air condensing on a ribbed petri dish with a dirty eyedropper of dirty water every day for years, then breathe it in. The problem is that moist interior dust mite laden air enters, collects, and condenses moisture on cool ribbed pipe walls which also develop leaks from an upthrusting stone or two somewhere, or the pipe is crushed from a car. Mold develops, so it was deprecated as a practice. They used to blow sun heated air through a pile of rocks in an enclosed crawlspace to store the heat...they found the sale thing, plus spiders and vermin, and it's impossible to clean.
If you had run water in a pipe in the trenches and used a radiator inside, you could have easily collected the condensate there. Since you will have condensation in the underground part of your pipe, I think you'll need to run a smaller piece of tubing into that pipe to periodically pump out the condensate.
If you plant trees i used evergreen trees plant 6' from house & 6' apart when thay get above the roof edge trim the top thay will start to bush out . When planting use black 2:46 dirt and if you can sum old plow blades put them foot from roots evergreen like the iron . Im 68 years old been there & did that . 😊 you will have nice shade & wind block for your cabin . 😊
Hell yes, Texas can get “Hotter than Satan’s ass”!!! My husband and I moved here from Oregon four years ago to take care of my mother, and in the summer with everyone running their A/C the electricity overloads the “grid” and then NO ONE has power! So, THANK YOU ALL for your innovative input!!
Ground loop cooling... and heating. I recall a big surge of interest in the concept during the late 60's, early 70's with the "back to the earth" movement (along with earth-berm houses, bead wall, trombe walls, and thermal-only solar panels). Subsequently, the reality of mold, mold spores, and associated medical issues (mostly respiratory) became evident. This realization pushed direct ground loop AC out of consideration, but seemed to foster an interest in heat pumps sourced to a ground loop. Unfortunately, heat pumps use a lot more energy. Equally unfortunate is the fact that a lot of ground loops have been very poorly done. For example: A co-worker was paying 7X more per month for heat from his ground-loop-based heat pump during a Wisconsin winter than I was for natural gas. His ground loop contractor had laid the pipe on the surface and piled several feet of dirt on top. Not only were the ridges across the backyard inconvenient and ugly, they were pretty pointless from an energy source/sink standpoint. If you find a solution to the mold/mildew buildup, I'd love to hear it. (A solution other than fans on the intake side pushing the warm air through a HEPA filter system into the pre-sterilized interior of a ground loop duct... which is sooo practical.)
I have installed a filter on the intake. The temp difference isn't enough to cause condensation. It's trail and error. I do text the air regularly for mold spores. Nothing so far. I run a dehumidifier in my cabin.
This is so interesting and creative... by any chance did you happen to video shoot the whole process? I would love to do something like this for my mum but unfortunately I have zero knowledge how to go about it.
It was so hot the day I did this that I was in a hurry to get it done. I did a follow up video explaining a little more about it. I'm going to do this on another cabin I'm building and I'll be able to video more.
Something to consider for the expected condensation is a pump like i have on my hvac system or a non chemical tablet in the pipe to kill water organisms like the Madi Drop that has been used world wide.
Sounds a bit loud on camera but i love the simplicity of it. They have been cooling inside spaces like this for thousands of years but instead of fans they used the wind
In humid climate, it's better to run PEX pipe burial grade in big Loops 6 ft down in the ground and then pump fluid through the PEX pipe and then through a radiator with a fan in the house. Just a low voltage boiler pump will pump the fluid through and keep it circulating
I'm pretty sure this is not how this works in the winter. The Earth is big and heating a small section of it is not possible using hot air from the summer. In the summer time, the ground temperature is 55F. In the winter time, the ground temperature is 55F. You're never "charging" the earth with a significant amount of energy to detect a difference in the ground temperature in the winter.
@@Kevin-ht1ox lol The entire idea of "Thermal Mass'' is the Mass you Thermally charge. You can charge it with Hot or Cold. The part you are missing is that the heat from the summer sun and air, Normally does not penetrate that deep into the earth, so having more area and Earth to put heat into, the more mass you have exposed to said heat and the more you have stored..It works both ways. If you lower the temperature of the earth deeper than normal in the winter, you can store the cold/energy. Dirt is a very good insulator and this is how Humans stored Ice in the desert and heat in the arctic for 1000's of years.. And igloo is actually a thermal mass too. The skins insulate it, and store the heat generated by the humans inside. The difference may only be from -20f to +40f but that 60 degrees is the difference between life and death.
@redneckhippiefreak Exactly! Very well put. I'll add that this storage of temperature difference is why many people that are building greenhouses are starting with floor piping. The earth below becomes the buffer. During a hot sunny day, cool air comes from the pipes. Once the sun goes down and temps drop, that same piping is supplying air that is warmer than would be in a cooled off greenhouse. The days of black barrels is gone if you can afford it.
@@redneckhippiefreak The heat you put into the ground is not going to change the ground temperature. This is why the ground is always a constant 55F. In the winter time, your home will never be colder than 55F. In the Summer time, your home will never be warmer than 55F. This is assuming perfect insulation in your home, which isn't possible so if you want comfort, then you need to augment this thermal transfer with a heat pump. Greenhouses can leverage this because plants do not like the temperature being too hot or too cold and they never like the temperature being below freezing. If you were to replace the thermal mass of the earth with a giant, insulated metal block, then you would be able to charge it with warm air in the summer time and discharge that heat in the winter. You would have the ability to change the temperature of that isolated system. With the earth, you do not have that capability without adding a significant amount of energy to a localized area -- for example, melting a cubic meter of bedrock and slowly bleeding away that heat through out the winter. If your thermal mass is not insulated, it will simply get conducted away into the background level of energy -- which is 55F.
I could be wrong, but if you pulled your return air from as high as you can, it should pull the hottest air out of the room replacing it with colder air.
The only issue is the ground will slowly heat up or cool down depending on the season. I guess the key is to have enough underground to make it trough the season.
The concept is interesting. but what do you do about condensation that will form in your ground loop? My fear is that over time it will pickup a musty smell and potential for other nasty.
I am curious, how well will it warm it in the winter, I have no clue what the winters are like in Texas. As long as you are below the frost line, I would think it would help some. What do you think? Lee
I don't use it in winter. I have a fireplace that keeps it nice. Winters here are hit and miss. May get down to single digits and I've seen it 85 at Christmas. Crazy Texas weather. Only place you can get all 4 seasons in one day
YOU CAN MAKE YOUR SYSTEM MORE PASSIVE by lowering one pipe and placing the other up higher. Like the systems the made in the desert in the Mideast. There are videos on this technology
I’m curious how well this works with plastic corrugated pipe since plastic is an insulator. Would it not be better to use copper or metal or maybe even dryer tubing to do this so that he can be transferred more quickly?
Hell that's a good idea if you do have the grid anytime you could not have to pay for cooling that's a good thing that's great idea man thanks for the heads up
I've considered that sort of system before. My concern would be condensation in the cooling pipes. It only takes a little water to create a big mold problem. I think it would be a good idea to run a dehumidifier in the house to limit the amount of moisture that gets into the lines. Dehumidified air also feels cooler on the skin because it's easier for evaporation to occur.
Also, if you're cooking or showering in that structure, make sure that humid air is properly vented as immediately and completely as possible so that humid air doesn't get into the lines.
Now that I think about it, I think a better system might be to cycle the same closed-loop of air through the ground with a furnace-style heat-exchanger that you pass the house's internal air over to cool it. This way, no humid air can ever get into your sub-surface lines, and if any condensation occurs on your heat-exchanger, you can just clean off any mold that might occur.
Aye mold loves dark places.
add a drain at the lower end of the loop and have it collect in a tank, then add an ozonator that bubbles ozone through a line that ends at the bottom of the tank. Then you can pump the clean condensate out. There's a way to forgoe the pump by using the power of the bubbles in the bubbler to push the water out through small vinyl tubing. ruclips.net/video/dNJTAbS_GBQ/видео.html
Condensation will occur at the "dew point temperature", your local dew point is on the weather report in your area. You can also research ground temperatures range by depth for your area. Cities generally warm the soil 10F warmer than outside that city. Phoenix AZ is about 75F at 10 ft depth underground in September. With weather highs of 97F and a dew point of 43F, condensation won't occur in an underground heat exchanger pipe because the piped air is 97F to 75F, no where near 43F dew point. However, if your weather near Kansas City is 61-83F and dew point of 65F, with a ground temperature is 55F. If the air coming out of the heat exchange is near 65F, you'll definitely be forming condensation in the pipe. Weather can change dew point significantly.
The transfer of heat into the ground to return cooling is extremely inefficient because low surface area of the pipe to exchange heat. The industry best solution has been shell-tubes.
One possibly is a heat exchanger like a furnace would have and instead of air in the lines run water or antifreeze solution?
@@DavidJones-me7yr The right liquid can exchange more heat than air can. The extra mass of anti-freeze underground would chill and store cold while not circulating in the mornings and be much more useful in the hot afternoons than air can be. Anti-freeze would be more expensive to use than Methanol, but anti-freeze is less toxic and not flammable. Air requires 10x the surface area of a anti-freeze pipe or 12x of methanol to be similar during active use. A DIY air system is very cheap if you disregard the cost of digging.
My wife and I did something similar here in central British Columbia. We buried two 4" PVC pipes six feet deep, side by side and running out seventy feet from the house. Fans pull outside air in, sending some to our bedroom and some to the kitchen. In the winter, minus 30C air is warmed by the earth to plus 10C. In the summer, plus 30CV air is cooled to plus 15C. It works very, very well. If I had to do it again, I'd go a little deeper (maybe 8-10 ft) and make it longer. We do sometimes get a bit of water in the pipes but haven't had any issues. If the run was sloped away from the house and drainage provided right where the pipes turn up to the surface the system would be self-draining. Anyways, six years later, the set-up works quite well.
Sounds awesome
Да что то подобное тоже хочу. Сделать только сбрасывать тепло под дом в глину чтобы зимой в подвале было потеплее а летом попрохладнее...
Nice! How do you drain the water? Would like to do
I didn't really know what I was doing, so I ran the pipes more or less horizontal. About once a year, during a week or more of heavy rains, some water finds its way down to the pipes (ten foot lengths of four inch PVC), which were not glued together. Eventually, enough seeps in to start blocking the airflow. My only recourse is to simply vacuum the water out with my wet-dry shop-vac. Twenty minutes of work, and I'm good for another six months or more.
I could have run those pipes toward a slope and down that hill. Then the pipes would be self-draining. I just never thought of water at the time. I'm not going to dig up our lawn to change it now, so the shop-vac comes out once or twice a year. Good luck with your project!@@sheilabicho2989
@@paulmaxwell8851 I definitely try this for my house in Czech republic..:)) so practical and reasonable information. God bless you !!
Just a thought, probably not important but you decide. Blowing warm, humid air into cool underground pipes might cause condensation in the pipes. Condensation may cause mold growth. The air circulating in the pipes and through the potential mold growth may disperse mold spores throughout the structure and into the lungs of anyone breathing the confined air.
I would consider a redesign personally. I would close loop the air in the pipes and install a radiator in the cabin to push the warm air through. Not as effective but maybe safer. Even better would be to replace the air in the pipes with something with better thermal efficiency like water with some antifreeze depending on climate and usage.
Good luck with your decisions.
Few hundred feet of buried pex/poly pipe using an antifreeze solution would work perfectly. 50w circulation pump + large radiator for the inside portion.
Perhaps uv lamps in the pipe could prevent mold?
@@glennlopez6772 enough uv lamps to prevent mold would require tons of electricity, a massive waste of energy.
Yup...guranteed mold growth! I tried this 40 years ago and abandoned the system I had installed due to MOLD!
Minimize that issue by having drainage holes at the lowest portion of the pipes. Very little humidity is left in the air by the time it returns.
Great plan and execution. Couple of cautions. Run a check on radon from the fan area. And remember in humid weather the pipe will literally fill up with condensate and pump humidity into the cabin. Those two factors ruled out a similar system for my house near raleigh, nc but i am able to pipe the cooler air through my ac to reduce costs there. Good luck and keep on innovating.
Radon is everywhere, and it clings to static, so the plastic pipe will probably collect most of it on the surface. It's also only a concern if it's accumulated in a closed area, like a basement or well, so the amount from an air handling system is minimal. Funny enough, the solution to if you DO have too much radon is... install more ventilation.
@@JustPlainRobBigger fans! More effective than duct tape in this particular application, more power does amazing things! Here in New Mexico, excessive humidity is rarely an issue but it’s good that you point it out. I’d be concerned with mold or Legionnaires Disease in more humid climates.
One could put a dehumidifier in the cabin. I have one in my work shop in Oklahoma and when it’s humid I get about a quart of water every day. During dry times it takes 3/4 days to get a quart out of it.
I run a dehumidifier in my cabin
@@uncledavesfrontier6846 What part of Texas? South and S.E. or even East Texas definitely need it, West, North, probly not so much. Texas Boy myself. S.A. Austin, Houston, DFW Metro, Beaumont, Tyler, Armadillo-Amarillo, lived and grew up all over.
I have worked designing systems similar to this... but lack money to build them. One thing you might not have allowed for is condensation in your underground pipes. The warm air from the house will have humidity that might condensate inside the pipe and eventually the whole pipe will fill with water and become stagnant. Another thing you might not have considered is the dirt near the surface has no water in it... so... even though the temperature of the dry dirt is 50F... it might not hold very many btu's of coolness. If you can bury the pipes down where the dirt is always wet, it might work better. Another problem is the corrugated pipe. That kind of pipe does not have smooth walls.... so... the air moving through the pipe will have turbulance and will not flow as well. If anyone is thinking of doing this... you should do some TESTING of temperatures below ground BEFORE you start. I installed temperature probes at various depths in St. Louis, Missouri. My results are as follows. Temperature at 20ft down is about 60F Winter and Summer! It doesn't change. As you get nearer the surface, then temperature changes depending on the season and the depth. Down here in central Florida, I measured the temperature at about 10 ft down and it is 70F. If you live in the NORTHERN U.S.A. it would be likely 50F. I wrote a whole PDF book about these subjects including a couple methods of cooling your attic from 150F down to about 105F with NO moving parts/NO electricity! Anyone who wants a free copy of the whole book I will email it to you as an attachment... My name is David Mundy and anyone can email me at this email address: framistan@sbcglobal.net Ask for the "U.G.A.C book" and I will send it to you.
Hello Dave, I tried to email you at the address you posted but it says it is undeliverable. I would like the U.G.A.C book. I look forward to hearing from you and thank you very much.
Yeah condensation and mold were the first things that came to mind when I saw this.
We tried it in Minnesota. Yes it gets fricken hot and humid in the summer here! It works, but after a while mold had grown in the pipe and it was abandoned. Now I’m too old to try it again.but I still can’t think of a practical way around the mold.
@@michaelnelson9140 I've thought about venting basement air into my attic in during the summer here in Alabama where it's also extremely humid. I considered putting an S-trap in the duct with a small drain hose to the outside. Never did it tho, mold is no joke
Awesome information. Thank you. I will be emailing you for the book. 👍
"hotter than Satans ass" lolol. thanks for the early morning laugh
Me too, was going to comment but seen yous. I’ve never heard that one before.😂😂😂
So, a consideration to note on the earthships here in New Mexico, the geothermal tubes are open to the outside for a few reasons, one is to prevent too much condensation build up, and the other is to allow a cross breeze to be your main air mover instead of a fan, so you use little to no power at all. Most earthships will have an attatched greenhouse, or at least a roof peak vent. All the hot air in the house will move to the upper most vent in the greenhouse/house and leave, pulling in fresh air through the geothermal tubes, pulling in that cooled (and typically drier) outside air, with no moving parts, although in some cases a fan may be used for extra movement if needed. These are also used for very light heating in the winter, as we have moderate winters, much like Texas. This will still work in this set up, but just as others have said, condensation is worth considering, but most AC systems have to deal with that anyways. These systems work the best in highly insulated buildings with very little temperature fluctuations
I don't understand the first sentence. How are teh geothermal tubes openes? You mean not underground but above?
Building an earthship now, I think this makes a lot more sense because it’s recycling already cooled air. If it get muggy, you could add a vent at the end of the exterior pipe that you can open at night to let fresh air in
Dude! Finally, an off-gridder who made a sensible and cheap solution at last based off geo-thermal cooling! I love it, great detail and explanation. One question though - have you thought about doing any filtering to prevent dust build-up? I get that it's a cabin and you don't expect HEPA air indoors, but don't discount the additional work a dirty fan motor has to do - your power consumption will take a hit.
I have a filter system in front of the intake vent and I run a dehumidifier in my cabin.
@@uncledavesfrontier6846 you gave me idea for hot sauce name 🤔 Satan's ass😁
Hey buddy he walks right by that fan everyday you can see if it's dusty that's ridiculous going to take a hit. Stop it
@@uncledavesfrontier6846 How many amps does your dehumidifier use?
@davidgentz1731 cleaning the fan is easy. However, keeping the entry of the pipes filtered will keep the pipes from getting dirty and possibly moldy over time and the last thing, it keeps the fan Clean which really isn't important. Ceiling fans gotta get cleaned all the time.
I would only run this in a closed system. You could use an HRV to do this. You'd run the underground loop across one side of the coil and then the interior air across the other. This would massively reduce mold, mildew, radon, etc issues. HRVs can transfer like 50-75% of the heat so it would work super well
HRV does not run a closed loop as it exchanges outside are with indoor air but reduces temperature & humid difference. I suppose an HRV could be modified for a closed loop system. FWIW, ground system could be hydronic and use a water radiator for heat exchange. A hydronic pump would not need a lot of power.
What’s HRV? Could running a little chlorine dioxide gas through the pipes once in awhile solve any mold issues?
If you put the air intake closer to the ceiling you'll find it much more effective and efficient. As level is evacuating near the same temperature air as it's imputing. Heat rises cool air falls
In thinking about it the air output should be head high also that reduces the hot zone by increasing the cooler area. Im impressed because I am guestimating how much site development will cost ie;solar and battery storage. Ill need and a fan is cheaper and easier to run than a ac unit . Could run a fridge on the savings in energy.
My cabin is all off grid. I have solar power and water is from rainwater collection system.
The more I can stay away from government control, the better.
this cooling system was abandoned in europe because off condensation and mold problem... even silver coated pipes didnt help... the only good possibility is to dig water circuit pipes and pump water to ceilings or a cooling unit in front of recuperation unit... i have the ceiling version and it works good and consumes around 18w of energy
I had an eccentric friend that buried 4” pvc 6 feet deep . He ran it about 75 yards from his home to his creek fed pond. He ran it to the middle of the pond and elbowed it to exit the water in the pond. He ran it to a box with a cheap box fan. The fan was pulling the cooler air into his house. His house was a dome home built in Mantachie, Ms, by Joel Nichols.
Brilliant design. We do something similar in an earth sheltered home and livestock housing in the Ozarks. It is completely passive, where warm air rises through vents to the outdoors and cooler air is drawn in from sunken pipes. We often have to shut the vents to keep it from getting too cool.
This is based on the vent design of my unairconditioned familly home in Florida. The intake vents were all along the bottom of an outside facing wall, sheltered by foliage. Lots and lots of foliage. The upper vents let warm air escape and drew the cooler air in. If there had been sunken pipes we could have gotten better than the average summer temperature of around 78 degrees indoors when normally it would be nearer to a hundred degrees. It made the northwest facing side of the house much more bearable without HVAC.
Downside in Florida was the wear and tear on the small screens and the humidity and moisure affecting the jalousy mechanism of the vents.
Cool setup! I'm looking into the efficiency of a recirculating water system going to a radiator with a fan blowing over it. My soil temps are a bit higher here.
At the very beginning he states the approximate ground temp of 52 degrees, then said he used 100' of pipe. Best case senario, 100' plus the length above ground. Realistically, he likely bought a 100' roll of the 6" pipe he used (mentioned later when talking about the fan that pulls the air through the pipe) so 85' +/- buried. I'd guess not much over 250 sf of living space to be conditioned so I'd use that as my starting point....except I only watched it because it seemed a pretty simple, but not easy project, unless you happen to have a backhoe. Kudos to Uncle Dave and his low budget cooling project. I am mildly curious about mold and mildew being sucked into the cabin, though.
I run a dehumidifier in my cabin and I have a filter on the suction side. Total cost of materials was about 250 at the time. Minus rented the tracthoe
@@uncledavesfrontier6846 wouldn't the soil bring it in?
I hope not, I think it is a great idea.
@@em945 it's buried in clay
@@uncledavesfrontier6846 ✌😁i obviously didn't listen properly. I am off grid and farming, and mould really can be a prob to not discount.
Wishing you the best!
@@uncledavesfrontier6846 Here's what I don't understand:
A dehumidifier is just an air conditioner that dumps the heat back into the same air it just cooled. You can get the same de-humidification affect PLUS the benefit of cooler air, by just buying a normal air conditioner and using that handle both the cooling AND de-humidification of your cabin.
To me it makes no sense to burn electricity running a de-humidifier (Which actually creates heat inside your cabin) when the same electricity could be used to run an air conditioner that removes both the humidity AND dumps the heat outside instead of back into your cabin. You would get a lot more BTU's of cooling by just using an air conditioner in place of the dehumidifier, for the same electrical input, and you wouldn't need to rent a backhoe and bury 100 ft of pipe 4 ft deep.
That's a great system! I'm glad that you're already aware of the potential for mold growth. One way to mitigate that risk would be to pick up an ozone generator and once a year, sanitize the air in the cabin and pipes. I would remove anything biological from the cabin that you don't want dead (people, pets, plants, etc.), close up the cabin and with the AC blowers running, fill the cabin with ozone. I'd let the ozone generator run for 24 hours, then let the ozone dissipate for three days after, opening the doors on the third. This is how I've removed mold from basements particularly and older structures (especially before upgrading it with a vapor barrier and vinyl siding), and in a system that is likely to produce mold, the ~$750-$1,000 for the investment in the ozone generator could well save the occupants from a major health hazard in the future. Anyway, I'm enjoying your channel and you've got a new sub!
Thank you
Just some helpful advice. Insulate your pipes all the way to the ground and also,, run a dehumidifier. These geothermal mass air flow units will start to sweat and cause some bacterias to grow.
Happy off grid
Its going to all be insulated. Ill do a follow up video when its all complete.
Glad to read in one the comments that you’re running a dehu. I live in sunny FL and that is the main thing most people don’t understand.
I hope your cheap solution will work for a long time.
This being said, geothermal is ok but can stop working after a while because of ground heat absorption saturation depending on the type of soil so good luck to you.
freaking love it! i had this idea years ago, and didn't realize it was being used till this video.
A squirrel cage fan will be much more efficient BTW. If you keep some cover crop over the piping, you will increase the cooling effect.
I have the piping covered and insulated. Doesnt show it in the video
I had an idea like that could be more than 20 years ago but I could never talk my family into doing it? Don't have a backhoe,, but the neighbor does! Another idea that would definitely help in old style rafter buildings is to sheet off possibly even insulate the bottom side of the rafters, not in between. Create a manifold at the top on the south side of the building, then an insulated pipe to take it down to the air vents in the rooms. Probably a little huskier fan would be needed, but you could have warm air during the day during winter time.
Shoulda put the intake duct up higher were it's hotter to pull out the heat but I guess it wouldn't cool as good just add a other fan lol
The Romans had a similar setup only without the electrical part. They built a chimney on the opposite side of the house that was painted black and let thermal conduction move the air for them. Their intake was also open on the far end, so it wasn't a closed loop system as yours is.
I'll be honest, I am beyond impressed my man. Great job
Good on you thanks , look into insulation paint for your outside cladding ,dad painted his RV with it ,made a huge difference in Australian summer ,
I never thought of anything like this. One thought I had was using a small pump to pump ground water through a heat exchanger to cool air circulating through the house and let it drain back to the well, but I suppose there would be a contamination issue there.
Results are so phenomenal - they are kept a secret.
I did a follow up video
I was going to do this back in 1982 when I built my dome house, but decided against it because of the worries of radon, humidity, mold, and trapped moisture in the pipes.
I still think it's a great idea if these problems can be addressed.
You address moisture in the pipes by having holes in the lowest spot of them to allow water to drain out.
radon? lmfao
Да какой там родон 😂 нечего там незакачается трубы ненадо ложить дырявые и нечего страшного😂
@@user-hc8es6cu4t Exactly
This is awesome!👍
A inexhaustible source of energy that's pollution free!
It's like a busted drum... you can't beat it! 😝
Basically what you’ve built here is a very rudimentary heat pump. These are a great idea in certain climates. You can keep your place above freezing with it if it ever gets cold in your area as well. Unfortunately here in Alaska where I live they are problematic because in many areas we have permafrost and the areas we don’t the frost line is so deep in the winter a heat exchange/pump system like this would be a major undertaking using more energy to build than you’d save over several decades. Of course we’d be using it primarily for heat as the days requiring an air conditioner are minimal.
I did something similar but in reverse inside my high tunnel here in Alaska. I pull the hot air from the top of the tunnel and pull it through the rammed earth under my raised beds. I also insulated it horizontally around the tunnel, and then covered the insulation with 6 mil black poly, so that all of the cold rain water sheds away from my foundation. The soil in my tunnel was thawed out in February and I was able to plant seeds in March.
How is this a heat pump? it is a fan moving air from a cool place to a hot place. That is not a heat pump.
We're looking forward to the results! Please do let us know how it's working when you get the chance. Thanks so much!
I posted a follow up video
Impressive, many thanks.
Thank you for sharing. I look for this kind of methods. I will try
Thank you for the video. This type of cooling has been used for centuries but for some reason is not used in many places here.
What kind of pipe did you use and how big is your cabin.
I lived off grid in Arizona for over 20 years and regret not doing this.
Looking forward to your update.
Good job
You have no humidity in Arizona, you can simple use a swamp cooler.
@@anthonyspadafora1384
After twenty some years off grid I found the swamper to work ok except during monsoon season.
Geothermal works all of the time summer and winter and it can be set up as passive so not using precious power.
For cooling you should have you're ducts as high as possible. Like that you grab the hot air on top and cool it down. That would possibly work without the fan because as the air cools in the tube it would loose weight and come out at the bottom end.
Even with a basic 'P' trap effect? That's quite a drop and rise, 12ft. I'm guessing? Natural Convection? Hardly.
Very COOL idea. You may want to eventually put a filter grill over the return...keeps debris and dust out of your pipe.
I had this idea for a while. Does condensation will build up in a pipe? I think that pipe should be laid sloping away from a cabin with two 45 elbows and T section right in a middle. extended to ground level for vacuuming it (just after first bend right where small bush is at in a video) Correct me if I am wrong
nice. been toying with this thought for years
I love this Uncle Dave! New subscriber, the RUclips Big Brother AI suggested your channel. So that is a win. LOL.
Thank you so much
From the Mayo Clinic:
Legionnaires' disease is a severe form of pneumonia - lung inflammation usually caused by infection. It's caused by a bacterium known as legionella.
Most people catch Legionnaires' disease by inhaling the bacteria from water or soil. Older adults, smokers and people with weakened immune systems are particularly susceptible to Legionnaires' disease.
The legionella bacterium also causes Pontiac fever, a milder illness resembling the flu. Pontiac fever usually clears on its own, but untreated Legionnaires' disease can be fatal. Although prompt treatment with antibiotics usually cures Legionnaires' disease, some people continue to have problems after treatment.
I researched all that before deciding on this project. The temp difference isn't enough to cause condensation. I run a dehumidifier in my cabin. I have a filter system now on the air intake. I test the air monthly. Still super clean air coming out.
I plan to do a similar thing in northern MI but will opt to circulate liquid into a thermal exchanger rather than directly using air, in order to avoid mold problems.
I'm building a hobbit house next. With that one I'm gonna do what your talking about. I'll run water filled lines in coils in my pond back into a radiator in the house.
Great idea!! Is the uncovered hole a return? If so, should it be higher to pull hot air out? Otherwise, love this concept!
I was thinking the same thing. Pull the air from the ceiling where it will be the warmest. Heat rises.
I've considered doing this, but using the air to feed a traditional heat pump unit. You'd need more pipes to get enough airflow, but the problems with getting water into the underground pipe, and mold would not be an issue.
I have seen that done with water pipe 1 1/2 and filled with windshield washer fluid. You just have to bury the pipe deep enough and have enough distance in pipe. Then using a radiator and fan. Have heard that works pretty well.
Hey Dave, I can't believe this idea! I love it and since I haven't decided on a system for the new house, I'm giving this a serious look. I'm in the phoenix, az area
and plenty of room to work with. Would it do any good to have the house air exiting into a manifold which would empty into say four 4 in. tubes? Thanks partner, and of course I subscribed!!
It would work better in your area. Yall don't have the humidity we have. I plan to change a few things up on my next cabin build now that I've tried this. Go as deep as you can with your pipe. 4 inch may be a better choice. Make sure the fan you use produces enough CFMs to move the amount of air per square foot. My cabin is 12x24 so I'm not sure how well this would work on cooling a large house. But it's all trial and error and I'll keep at it.
"Hotter than Satan's ass" is my new favorite phrase.
I luv this one. Southern euphemisms are the best.
I laughed out loud 😂
great video!
Thank you
I've always wanted to know if something like this would work. Also good for Winter too. But what about condensation, and bacteria ?
Great video 👍
Thank you
Excellent job.
If you put the air intake on the ceiling, would natural convection be enough to push air through the pipes without a fan?
Warm humid inside air intake, into cold dark area seems like a recipe for condensation/mold. Cool idea though!
You could put an insulated air handler box (with a filter) outside and run the air thru that. It would reduce noise considerably.
It's super quiet. Sounds loud in the video cause I had to mic sensitivity turned up too much. I do have a filter on the intake
Thanks uncle dave!
Low inlet High outlet. Cold air drops. How deep in ground the pipes and Also at what diameter?
i noticed that this is the first closed loop system I've seen... and kudos to you i would likely do the same thing, have you had any condensation issues?
No condensation issues. It will only maintain temps. So if it gets down to 70 at night, it will keep it 70 during the day. Hard for it to drop temps if you turn it on after the cabin gets hot inside. So i turn it on in the morning
I put a lot of thought and research into a similar idea for my home but was seriously concerned about condensation in the pipes as the hot air was cooled leading to mold, mildew and poor to dangerous air quality. I decided on smooth pipe and a grade downward to a drain before going straight up into my home but never did because of the same reason I don't to many things, lack of funds. lol I did put a temperature sensor in the ground last year and an 8 ft depth and programed an app for my phone to record the temps year round. I installed it in Jan if you can believe.... it was an unusually warm winter. In the 10C area then and up to 13.75C on Sept 21 funny thing the temp kept dropping until mid April to 3.5C as the temperture outside warmed. My ESP32 micro controller stopped working in through May and I was too lazy to figure it out until June... Ahhh Fudge it's 4:20am and I just realized I broke my phone screen while I was replacing my tarp shed cover yesterday!!
the evaporation from the top soil may be causing cooler summer and the lack of evaporation the accumulation of heat.
It's been a super wet spring/summer/fall around here! Lots to do but can't get 24hrs of dry above 10C weather to paint my solar furnace rack and hen house. I had to run the furnace to warm the in floor heating last night! @@zombieblaster5754
You might want to make it a closed loop, mold may be an issue
It is a closed loop
Hey, I know I'm late but corrugated tubing collects and holds condescension. That condescension grows mold and other fungus. You can use a shopvac, string and a rag to clean every season or when needed. If you can afford it use SCH 20 pvc or install a stripped copper ground wire in the pipe to help fight mold.
Just have drainage holes in the pipe and issue solved
@@thatguychris5654 I'm my area that would let critters and ground water in.
heads up to anyone trying this.
i did this but used clay pipe, works great and adds a little humidity as it can be very dry where i live. i went from 86F inside down to 73F and the humidity went from 37% to a nice 46%.
The Earthships in NM have these. They work well but the outside air is dry. How do you handle the condensation? I spit out my drink when you said TX was as hot as Satn's rear end. I have to agree with you. I live in north TX & it's been a rough summer. LOL
I haven't had any condensation issues. I run a dehumidifier in my cabin so the air stays dry. I run the dehumidifier for about 2 hours before I turn the system on. No smell or anything like that. I'm going to try a different design when I build the hobbit house.
Brilliant!
This would be a really good idea if you like poly line because you can join it together without and make any seams really strong
1:55 that's the greatest scientific approach I have ever seen - "...the air coming out of it is really cool."
Good example, for use the advantage of thermodynamics to redesign. Place the return vents lower and supply (cold vents, higher so you defeat stratification. It will create a more even mix of air than coming off the same pipe. I might have had two runs of pipe with a heat sync medium running opposite ends of the building
Another consideration is to use Cinder blocks and seal with a water proof wrap. It will take the structural loads and is an excellent heat sync to the earth.
Put 'em both high. The exhaust to prevent stratification, and the intake to draw in the warmest air ...unless you're also running a circulation fan.
I've experimented with thermal mass too. The problem that remains is the same one Carrier struggled with...the ambient air temperature must be lowered to below the ambient dew point temperature....and thats going to take an input of energy..Carriers first movie theater was cool, but the people filled it up with water vapor and it got sweaty real fast. Some method to condense water vapor will be necessary in all but arid conditions.
Awesome!
think of a lab experiment: moist dusty air condensing on a ribbed petri dish with a dirty eyedropper of dirty water every day for years, then breathe it in. The problem is that moist interior dust mite laden air enters, collects, and condenses moisture on cool ribbed pipe walls which also develop leaks from an upthrusting stone or two somewhere, or the pipe is crushed from a car. Mold develops, so it was deprecated as a practice. They used to blow sun heated air through a pile of rocks in an enclosed crawlspace to store the heat...they found the sale thing, plus spiders and vermin, and it's impossible to clean.
If you had run water in a pipe in the trenches and used a radiator inside, you could have easily collected the condensate there. Since you will have condensation in the underground part of your pipe, I think you'll need to run a smaller piece of tubing into that pipe to periodically pump out the condensate.
I was thinking of something similar but using liquid anti-freeze mix into a radiator
If you plant trees i used evergreen trees plant 6' from house & 6' apart when thay get above the roof edge trim the top thay will start to bush out . When planting use black 2:46 dirt and if you can sum old plow blades put them foot from roots evergreen like the iron . Im 68 years old been there & did that . 😊 you will have nice shade & wind block for your cabin . 😊
Hell yes, Texas can get “Hotter than Satan’s ass”!!! My husband and I moved here from Oregon four years ago to take care of my mother, and in the summer with everyone running their
A/C the electricity overloads the “grid” and then NO ONE has power!
So, THANK YOU ALL for your innovative input!!
Wholly Moses, this is genius!
Ground loop cooling... and heating. I recall a big surge of interest in the concept during the late 60's, early 70's with the "back to the earth" movement (along with earth-berm houses, bead wall, trombe walls, and thermal-only solar panels). Subsequently, the reality of mold, mold spores, and associated medical issues (mostly respiratory) became evident. This realization pushed direct ground loop AC out of consideration, but seemed to foster an interest in heat pumps sourced to a ground loop. Unfortunately, heat pumps use a lot more energy. Equally unfortunate is the fact that a lot of ground loops have been very poorly done. For example: A co-worker was paying 7X more per month for heat from his ground-loop-based heat pump during a Wisconsin winter than I was for natural gas. His ground loop contractor had laid the pipe on the surface and piled several feet of dirt on top. Not only were the ridges across the backyard inconvenient and ugly, they were pretty pointless from an energy source/sink standpoint. If you find a solution to the mold/mildew buildup, I'd love to hear it. (A solution other than fans on the intake side pushing the warm air through a HEPA filter system into the pre-sterilized interior of a ground loop duct... which is sooo practical.)
I have installed a filter on the intake. The temp difference isn't enough to cause condensation. It's trail and error. I do text the air regularly for mold spores. Nothing so far. I run a dehumidifier in my cabin.
Cool idea
This is so interesting and creative... by any chance did you happen to video shoot the whole process? I would love to do something like this for my mum but unfortunately I have zero knowledge how to go about it.
It was so hot the day I did this that I was in a hurry to get it done. I did a follow up video explaining a little more about it.
I'm going to do this on another cabin I'm building and I'll be able to video more.
Thank you for such a quick response. I look forward to your new upcoming video. Thanks for sharing your 'know how'.
Fallowing
Something to consider for the expected condensation is a pump like i have on my hvac system or a non chemical tablet in the pipe to kill water organisms like the Madi Drop that has been used world wide.
Sounds a bit loud on camera but i love the simplicity of it. They have been cooling inside spaces like this for thousands of years but instead of fans they used the wind
That's my fault. I had the mic sensitivity turned up too much and had it too close to the fan. It's already quiet
Have you tested the cabin for radon?
That’s great I would suggest testing for radon though.
I do. But it's not common in my area. Mostly common in rocky areas
In humid climate, it's better to run PEX pipe burial grade in big Loops 6 ft down in the ground and then pump fluid through the PEX pipe and then through a radiator with a fan in the house.
Just a low voltage boiler pump will pump the fluid through and keep it circulating
This can be used in reverse too. You can pump hot summer air in and get some heat back out during the winter. Thermal mass projects are awesome 👍
I'm pretty sure this is not how this works in the winter. The Earth is big and heating a small section of it is not possible using hot air from the summer. In the summer time, the ground temperature is 55F. In the winter time, the ground temperature is 55F. You're never "charging" the earth with a significant amount of energy to detect a difference in the ground temperature in the winter.
@@Kevin-ht1ox lol The entire idea of "Thermal Mass'' is the Mass you Thermally charge. You can charge it with Hot or Cold. The part you are missing is that the heat from the summer sun and air, Normally does not penetrate that deep into the earth, so having more area and Earth to put heat into, the more mass you have exposed to said heat and the more you have stored..It works both ways. If you lower the temperature of the earth deeper than normal in the winter, you can store the cold/energy. Dirt is a very good insulator and this is how Humans stored Ice in the desert and heat in the arctic for 1000's of years.. And igloo is actually a thermal mass too. The skins insulate it, and store the heat generated by the humans inside. The difference may only be from -20f to +40f but that 60 degrees is the difference between life and death.
@redneckhippiefreak Exactly! Very well put. I'll add that this storage of temperature difference is why many people that are building greenhouses are starting with floor piping. The earth below becomes the buffer. During a hot sunny day, cool air comes from the pipes. Once the sun goes down and temps drop, that same piping is supplying air that is warmer than would be in a cooled off greenhouse. The days of black barrels is gone if you can afford it.
@@redneckhippiefreak The heat you put into the ground is not going to change the ground temperature. This is why the ground is always a constant 55F. In the winter time, your home will never be colder than 55F. In the Summer time, your home will never be warmer than 55F. This is assuming perfect insulation in your home, which isn't possible so if you want comfort, then you need to augment this thermal transfer with a heat pump.
Greenhouses can leverage this because plants do not like the temperature being too hot or too cold and they never like the temperature being below freezing.
If you were to replace the thermal mass of the earth with a giant, insulated metal block, then you would be able to charge it with warm air in the summer time and discharge that heat in the winter. You would have the ability to change the temperature of that isolated system. With the earth, you do not have that capability without adding a significant amount of energy to a localized area -- for example, melting a cubic meter of bedrock and slowly bleeding away that heat through out the winter. If your thermal mass is not insulated, it will simply get conducted away into the background level of energy -- which is 55F.
Great video! What I would like to see is the temperature difference between the intake and the exhaust.
Sorry I didn't film that. You get about 7 to 8 degrees temp difference. Not a whole lot.
@@uncledavesfrontier6846What's your approximate CFM?
@@PatrickKQ4HBD let me look back at the exhaust fan I'm running and I'll let ya know
@@PatrickKQ4HBD 308 CFMs
I could be wrong, but if you pulled your return air from as high as you can, it should pull the hottest air out of the room replacing it with colder air.
What about the condensation of moisture in the pipe? This can breed microorganisms and blow them into the living space.
Great idea
The only issue is the ground will slowly heat up or cool down depending on the season. I guess the key is to have enough underground to make it trough the season.
Once you go down past 5 feet, the temp of the soil stays the same year round.
Great video brother ! links for material ?
That's a great idea.
The concept is interesting. but what do you do about condensation that will form in your ground loop? My fear is that over time it will pickup a musty smell and potential for other nasty.
It's a closed loop. Temp difference isn't enough to cause condensation. I run filters on the intake.
I am curious, how well will it warm it in the winter, I have no clue what the winters are like in Texas. As long as you are below the frost line, I would think it would help some. What do you think?
Lee
I don't use it in winter. I have a fireplace that keeps it nice. Winters here are hit and miss. May get down to single digits and I've seen it 85 at Christmas. Crazy Texas weather. Only place you can get all 4 seasons in one day
More efficient if out take pipe is higher and intake in lower. Reason hot air moves up cold air replace hot air from downwards.
Awesome
very cool, literally.
Great idea. Curious if the ground temperature will ever saturate?
I doubt it. It's buried in clay. Doing well so far
YOU CAN MAKE YOUR SYSTEM MORE PASSIVE by lowering one pipe and placing the other up higher. Like the systems the made in the desert in the Mideast.
There are videos on this technology
Thanks so much
I’m curious how well this works with plastic corrugated pipe since plastic is an insulator. Would it not be better to use copper or metal or maybe even dryer tubing to do this so that he can be transferred more quickly?
I tried metal in different applications. Doesn't last. Rusts out in 3 to 4 years in my area
Hell that's a good idea if you do have the grid anytime you could not have to pay for cooling that's a good thing that's great idea man thanks for the heads up
I’ve been wanting to do this for a while but i need to figure out how to remove the condensed water inside the pipes.
How do you do this?
The temp difference isn't enough to produce condensation