This has drastically helped me a lot. I was having issues with my EA uptime and this helped bring me from an average of ~75-80% to 90-93% uptime, thank you so much
Being a solo rogue in the guild, I do the exact same thing. Around 15 seconds EA, I try to rebuild the 5 point EA again. Most of the times I do SnD 5/5 but sometimes even 1 or 2/5 would suffice until I rebuild my SnD right before 15 seconds EA. Usually EA and SnD are 8-10 seconds apart for me. Right at the start tho, when I'm popping Blade Flurry with Adrenaline Rush, I tend to do a 5/5 rupture (can be squeezed in rather easily) and occasionally 5/5 eviscerate. But at the end of it all, the key to downing a boss is staying alive ! Rogues are masters at this so NEVER BE AFRAID to use Vanish or Cloak of Shadows. Learn about each boss and how you can face it as a rogue. Example; when Teron Gorefiend begins casting Shadow of Death, a rogue can use Vanish to prevent the spell from ever afflicting them. Yet you can allow Shadow of Death when the boss is around 30% hp, because when the boss dies, the debuff goes away.
I prefer using thistle after my first snd to get expose up quicker for raid, and using my CDs as soon as ea is up. Rotation looks like: ss -> snd -> ss, ss, ss, thistle, ss, ss -> ea -> CDs -> 2 pt snd -> 5 pt rupture. I'll try the 2 pt snd opener out this week! Thanks for the great content Sno.
I don‘t think a 1cp/2cp rupture is a dps increase, in that case I’d just go for a sinister strike. A 3cp(or more) rupture is in most cases a dps gain compared to a sinister strike.
@@ClassicRoguecraft Not using a cp is certainly not optimal, but if we spend more energy/damage just to use up a combo point, we're better off burning that combo point. I'm not saying that a ss is better than a 2cp rupture, as i'm not sure on the calculations for rupture, but I'm certain that when we're looking at the statement from @gurtner9 in isolation and trying to determine when it's better to ss than to rupture we shouldn't consider combo points to be relevant except for the effect on damage dealt by rupture.
@@sebastianv6406 in isolation roughly speaking you want to stick to 3pts and beyond for finishers vs ss efficiency. For the situation where you'd be wasting combo points/capping that would ofc change the dps per energy value a bit once you factor in the loss potential of the combo pt from overcapping beyond 5 if that was the alternative choice.
Also SNO, do you believe that come Sunwell and the gear we're getting that we should go full dps if we have more warriors (fury, arms + tank) that sunder armor would be better overall or should we stick with EA till the end of it ?
You can stack only 5 Sunders, even if you have more than 5 Warriors. IEA will always remove more Armor from the boss than 5 sunders, therefore you'll be stuck with exposing. There should still be about 1600 armor left on a low-armor boss after IEA, CoR and FF is applied, so only if everyone has over 1600 armor pen on gear you could consider dropping IEA in favor for 5 sunders. But I assume IEA and people having less armor pen on gear would be better.
right now IEA is better than ever since physical dps got armor pen on gear, but as other guy said, maybe at certain armor pen breakpoints it would be "worth" dropping IEA. however, using SA you rely on having a prot warrior stacking it up unless you wanna cuck your dps warriors first 2-3 gcds (ofc depends on how many warriors you have. if you have 3 or 4 it's not too bad). even then, on 7700 armor bosses you want the extra armor pen from IEA, so I don't think it's going to be worth dropping if you run a rogue in your roster. (also better to have to gear around having IEA than not, e.g. putting on mongoose enchanted dragonstrike/CE instead of executioner)
Yeah you can, using thistle early is good for the parse, but for beginner rogues who need rotation help I'd honestly save it for when they mess up and get greedy with a rupture and need the energy to save their expose rotation. Either way is fine really, just I like to lean towards the beginner friendly option when giving general guides and save min/max stuff for the more advanced guides.
I admit to being too greedy with ruptures, but sometimes you're popping off so much to be able to get 5pt ea, 5pt rupture, and a 3-4 snd. It's definitely risky and when the procs slow down that ea or snd uptime is in danger.
It's grief to personal dps, but I've been opening with Shiv -> SnD -> AR -> Shivx4/5 -> EA before going into usual rotation, never end up energy starved and get up EA very quickly. Raid seems to be happy with the quick EA, and ultimately doesn't grief me too bad when looking at the entire fight.
Been playing rogue for YEARS. I started in vanilla but remember TBC very well. The best piece of advice for me was knowing when to use a 1-2-3 combo point Rupture/Dispatch/Eviscerate over waiting for a full 5 combo points.
how does your addon thing track when the coil trinket and the spine is being used? i have coil but it doesn’t appear as a buff in the top right corner when it procs so i’m never actually sure. is there a standalone addon for that
Thanks for this guide - one maybe very stupid question, isn’t using ss after ur regular hit for an extra wind fury proc a thing anymore? Iam getting back on my rog but I don’t even see a swing timer in snos ui!? k.r
I open with SS x3, Tea, SS, sapper, SS, EA, 1-2 point SnD, pop CDs, 5 point rupture, 1-2 SnD, EA. Then maintain EA, 3 point SnD and 4 point ruptures (if lucky). Thoughts?
I think opener IEA 5 pt right away is fine too if you want to prio guilds dps gain over everything else. It's usually something I saw more so in extremely hardcore raids, where clear time was important than personal dps in all cases. Average rogue probably doesn't have to do that as their non hardcore guild won't require them to go full sacrifice IEA opener, but if you're happy to do that it's all good too.
@@ClassicRoguecraft Yeah I like the smoothness and semi burst of using a sapper while you wait for an energy tick to get EA up. Also let’s you use a goblin sapper a minute earlier. Obviously can be expensive for opening but it lines up really well with CDs and lust etc.
Yeah that's fine. I didn't cover a lot of niche usage type rotations/emergencies since it would have made the video 3x longer, but shiv to save a 5 stack deadly from dropping is definitely worth, same with if you screwed up and need quick combo pts to save an IEA from dropping.
Great explanation on rotation but I'm wondering if your not the rogue doing the IEA and looking at the 2 piece Deathmantle set bonus should your rotation be 5 point Snd then 5 pt eviserate and benefit from the 40 damage per combo point or stick with the Snd and rupture rotation? Somewhere I read that Rupture ignores the bosses armor but not sure which rotation would be better. If Snd and Rupture is the rotation then what good is the 2 piece set bonus really doing?
@@Wesker_G Rupture is still a mile better than eviscerate even accounting for more armor pen/crit. You can still eviscerate to try rng grit, but on average rupture will still beat out eviscerate
Why when I look at every single rogue rotation via warcraftlogs NO rogue ever casts slice and dice in their rotation? They also only use 1 evis and maybe 2 ruptures per fight regardless of the fight its about 99% sinister strike and not even spending combo points? 99% of the top rogues are showing this on warcraftlogs? Any explanation?
eey tnx for the videos keep it up! do u ever open in stealth with a garrote? i feel in some cases that gives the maximum uptime since i can open as soon as the tank touches the boss to a 1cp snd instead of risking 2 sinister into aggro fiesta.. in some cases i might open with shiv too.. Also i find myself shiving at least 1-2 times per fight to keep deadly poison for dropping, do u do that? Last i envenom if the target is about to die i find it a waste of deadly poisons to eviscerate but i see no1 touching that donno why
Garrote at best is even but at worst a dps loss vs ss, more often than not a dps loss if not done perfectly ideal, so I personally rarely use it in serious cases. Shivving if a 5 pt stack is about to drop is good, that's what you want to do anyway. Envenom if target is about to die is definitely a thing you can do, the gain isn't that great for the extra effort but it is a minor dps gain if you want to go for it and do it perfectly. I mostly don't cover any of the very niche or more advanced dps stuff here since this is a very basic rotation guide to get up and running for beginner rogues.
Wow do not use this opener it is absolutely wrong. If you want to maximize your dps and your raids dps please use 1snd into ADR and while building to 5cp use thistle tea and then 5IEA. After this pop all your cds BF, haste pot, racials, etc.. You want Expose up as fast as you can for your dps and your raids dps to maximize DPS!. If you use Sno's rotation you are less than optimal.
TBC GUIDES DISCORD ►► discord.gg/T9XQJw7gJj
This has drastically helped me a lot. I was having issues with my EA uptime and this helped bring me from an average of ~75-80% to 90-93% uptime, thank you so much
Being a solo rogue in the guild, I do the exact same thing.
Around 15 seconds EA, I try to rebuild the 5 point EA again. Most of the times I do SnD 5/5 but sometimes even 1 or 2/5 would suffice until I rebuild my SnD right before 15 seconds EA. Usually EA and SnD are 8-10 seconds apart for me.
Right at the start tho, when I'm popping Blade Flurry with Adrenaline Rush, I tend to do a 5/5 rupture (can be squeezed in rather easily) and occasionally 5/5 eviscerate.
But at the end of it all, the key to downing a boss is staying alive ! Rogues are masters at this so NEVER BE AFRAID to use Vanish or Cloak of Shadows. Learn about each boss and how you can face it as a rogue. Example; when Teron Gorefiend begins casting Shadow of Death, a rogue can use Vanish to prevent the spell from ever afflicting them. Yet you can allow Shadow of Death when the boss is around 30% hp, because when the boss dies, the debuff goes away.
I prefer using thistle after my first snd to get expose up quicker for raid, and using my CDs as soon as ea is up. Rotation looks like: ss -> snd -> ss, ss, ss, thistle, ss, ss -> ea -> CDs -> 2 pt snd -> 5 pt rupture. I'll try the 2 pt snd opener out this week! Thanks for the great content Sno.
Clear and concise guide. Thank you man.
ty for this video been looking for something like this
I don‘t think a 1cp/2cp rupture is a dps increase, in that case I’d just go for a sinister strike. A 3cp(or more) rupture is in most cases a dps gain compared to a sinister strike.
Keep in mind it's not just about dps per energy but dps loss if a combo pt isn't used as well.
@@ClassicRoguecraft Not using a cp is certainly not optimal, but if we spend more energy/damage just to use up a combo point, we're better off burning that combo point. I'm not saying that a ss is better than a 2cp rupture, as i'm not sure on the calculations for rupture, but I'm certain that when we're looking at the statement from @gurtner9 in isolation and trying to determine when it's better to ss than to rupture we shouldn't consider combo points to be relevant except for the effect on damage dealt by rupture.
@@sebastianv6406 in isolation roughly speaking you want to stick to 3pts and beyond for finishers vs ss efficiency. For the situation where you'd be wasting combo points/capping that would ofc change the dps per energy value a bit once you factor in the loss potential of the combo pt from overcapping beyond 5 if that was the alternative choice.
Also SNO, do you believe that come Sunwell and the gear we're getting that we should go full dps if we have more warriors (fury, arms + tank) that sunder armor would be better overall or should we stick with EA till the end of it ?
You can stack only 5 Sunders, even if you have more than 5 Warriors. IEA will always remove more Armor from the boss than 5 sunders, therefore you'll be stuck with exposing. There should still be about 1600 armor left on a low-armor boss after IEA, CoR and FF is applied, so only if everyone has over 1600 armor pen on gear you could consider dropping IEA in favor for 5 sunders. But I assume IEA and people having less armor pen on gear would be better.
right now IEA is better than ever since physical dps got armor pen on gear, but as other guy said, maybe at certain armor pen breakpoints it would be "worth" dropping IEA. however, using SA you rely on having a prot warrior stacking it up unless you wanna cuck your dps warriors first 2-3 gcds (ofc depends on how many warriors you have. if you have 3 or 4 it's not too bad). even then, on 7700 armor bosses you want the extra armor pen from IEA, so I don't think it's going to be worth dropping if you run a rogue in your roster. (also better to have to gear around having IEA than not, e.g. putting on mongoose enchanted dragonstrike/CE instead of executioner)
You can open with 1pt slice and not have SD run out before you do your 5pt SD If you are using AR and thistle to build the first IEA
Yeah you can, using thistle early is good for the parse, but for beginner rogues who need rotation help I'd honestly save it for when they mess up and get greedy with a rupture and need the energy to save their expose rotation.
Either way is fine really, just I like to lean towards the beginner friendly option when giving general guides and save min/max stuff for the more advanced guides.
I admit to being too greedy with ruptures, but sometimes you're popping off so much to be able to get 5pt ea, 5pt rupture, and a 3-4 snd. It's definitely risky and when the procs slow down that ea or snd uptime is in danger.
great tips! thanks
what is the name addon is usefull for rogue combo?
It's grief to personal dps, but I've been opening with Shiv -> SnD -> AR -> Shivx4/5 -> EA before going into usual rotation, never end up energy starved and get up EA very quickly. Raid seems to be happy with the quick EA, and ultimately doesn't grief me too bad when looking at the entire fight.
Very helpful!
I'm finding that without AR I can't get enough energy to pop EA before my SnD ends. I have no idea why
Perhaps your OH speed is too high. The faster your OH is the more consistent your proc combat potency
What is that weak aura that shows timers and combo points can you please link it
Yep that's part of my basic UI weakauras - links are in discord
Hey, thank you for the video. What is your addon called which shows your energybar, Combo Points and the time of the attacks?
Those are a mixture of my weakauras, you can find them on discord and patreon
@@ClassicRoguecraft where can I find them exactly? Do you have a download link? Thank you
@@saschas2943 link is in video description for both the discord and patreon
Been playing rogue for YEARS. I started in vanilla but remember TBC very well.
The best piece of advice for me was knowing when to use a 1-2-3 combo point Rupture/Dispatch/Eviscerate over waiting for a full 5 combo points.
how does your addon thing track when the coil trinket and the spine is being used? i have coil but it doesn’t appear as a buff in the top right corner when it procs so i’m never actually sure. is there a standalone addon for that
there's a buff id for the wsc buff, it just tracks that
@@ClassicRoguecraft sorry if this is noob but how do i get that lol
it’s a weakaura for the buff id? seems useful to have but i never messed with WA settings
@@levia9753 it's included in the weakaura on the patreon already
@@ClassicRoguecraft oh nice awesome - thank you & love the videos
Do still need to care with swinger time on TBC to improve even more the dps?
Nah swing timers not needed in TBC - your swing doesn't get interrupted
Thanks for this guide - one maybe very stupid question, isn’t using ss after ur regular hit for an extra wind fury proc a thing anymore? Iam getting back on my rog but I don’t even see a swing timer in snos ui!? k.r
Swing timers don't matter anymore in TBC.
@@Kryxx07 thanks
I open with SS x3, Tea, SS, sapper, SS, EA, 1-2 point SnD, pop CDs, 5 point rupture, 1-2 SnD, EA. Then maintain EA, 3 point SnD and 4 point ruptures (if lucky). Thoughts?
I think opener IEA 5 pt right away is fine too if you want to prio guilds dps gain over everything else. It's usually something I saw more so in extremely hardcore raids, where clear time was important than personal dps in all cases.
Average rogue probably doesn't have to do that as their non hardcore guild won't require them to go full sacrifice IEA opener, but if you're happy to do that it's all good too.
@@ClassicRoguecraft Yeah I like the smoothness and semi burst of using a sapper while you wait for an energy tick to get EA up. Also let’s you use a goblin sapper a minute earlier.
Obviously can be expensive for opening but it lines up really well with CDs and lust etc.
What do you think about 1 shiving in emergency cases instead of SS ?
Yeah that's fine. I didn't cover a lot of niche usage type rotations/emergencies since it would have made the video 3x longer, but shiv to save a 5 stack deadly from dropping is definitely worth, same with if you screwed up and need quick combo pts to save an IEA from dropping.
Great explanation on rotation but I'm wondering if your not the rogue doing the IEA and looking at the 2 piece Deathmantle set bonus should your rotation be 5 point Snd then 5 pt eviserate and benefit from the 40 damage per combo point or stick with the Snd and rupture rotation? Somewhere I read that Rupture ignores the bosses armor but not sure which rotation would be better. If Snd and Rupture is the rotation then what good is the 2 piece set bonus really doing?
No - don't change your rotation just for that bonus, rupture is miles better than eviscerate.
@@ClassicRoguecraft eviscerate is better if you have the crit and amor pen
@@Wesker_G Rupture is still a mile better than eviscerate even accounting for more armor pen/crit. You can still eviscerate to try rng grit, but on average rupture will still beat out eviscerate
@@ClassicRoguecraft test it like I did and you will see.
I just think about all the 98's that would've been 99's if I wasn't applying EA :)
Why when I look at every single rogue rotation via warcraftlogs NO rogue ever casts slice and dice in their rotation? They also only use 1 evis and maybe 2 ruptures per fight regardless of the fight its about 99% sinister strike and not even spending combo points? 99% of the top rogues are showing this on warcraftlogs? Any explanation?
eey tnx for the videos keep it up! do u ever open in stealth with a garrote? i feel in some cases that gives the maximum uptime since i can open as soon as the tank touches the boss to a 1cp snd instead of risking 2 sinister into aggro fiesta.. in some cases i might open with shiv too.. Also i find myself shiving at least 1-2 times per fight to keep deadly poison for dropping, do u do that? Last i envenom if the target is about to die i find it a waste of deadly poisons to eviscerate but i see no1 touching that donno why
Garrote at best is even but at worst a dps loss vs ss, more often than not a dps loss if not done perfectly ideal, so I personally rarely use it in serious cases. Shivving if a 5 pt stack is about to drop is good, that's what you want to do anyway.
Envenom if target is about to die is definitely a thing you can do, the gain isn't that great for the extra effort but it is a minor dps gain if you want to go for it and do it perfectly. I mostly don't cover any of the very niche or more advanced dps stuff here since this is a very basic rotation guide to get up and running for beginner rogues.
Nice
Envenom only xD
Wow do not use this opener it is absolutely wrong. If you want to maximize your dps and your raids dps please use 1snd into ADR and while building to 5cp use thistle tea and then 5IEA. After this pop all your cds BF, haste pot, racials, etc.. You want Expose up as fast as you can for your dps and your raids dps to maximize DPS!. If you use Sno's rotation you are less than optimal.
You realise that’s the 2nd rotation talked about right? I think you’re missing the point of the noob friendly opener at the start.