@@animal9432 I explain my story in the video. I was once a Christian but then later, I became an atheist. Then, after that, I converted to Judaism via the official method.
Hey Matt, can you indicate where a Christian denomination is considered a separate Abrahamic religion like Mandaeism, Rastafarism, and Mormonism? They may consider themselves as a Christian denominations while the other denominations may see them as heresies kr separate religions. So it may be best to mark them as separate Abrahamic religions with origins in Christianity
A suggested change: While Joseph’s Smith’s church was originally organized under the name “Church of Christ” and underwent a few name changes, the name they settled on, “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,” is theologically significant. The name was given through a direct revelation from God to Joseph Smith declaring what God’s personal church ought to be called. This revelation is canonized in Latter Day Saint scripture as Doctrine & Covenants: section 115. Because of this theological significance, the name change to “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” ought to be included on the chart prior to the death of Joseph Smith, separately from the modern denomination: “The Church of *Jesus Christ* of Latter-day Saints” (As properly formatted). Similar to how the name change from Reorganized LDS to Community of Christ is noted on the chart. The recent emphasis from the modern denomination on avoiding the nickname Mormon when referring to the church proper is the result of leaders urging members to be more theologically in line with section 115. They also advise that the name not be abbreviated. Similar to how Jews do not use the terms BC and AD for theological reasons. However, The Church of *Jesus Christ* of Latter-day Saints has not rejected the term Mormon, and they still employ the term for other uses and for subsidiary organizations, and they maintain the trademarks. But they specifically does not use it when referring to the church proper of its members. It is still taxonomically correct to use Mormon to refer to the various denominations of the sect of Mormonism individually or collectively, as denominations that adhere to the Book of Mormon. (Especially when used to refer to non-Latter Day Saint Mormons that do not hold to Section 115 or Joseph Smith’s later teachings) For example, The Church of *Jesus Christ* of Latter-day Saints is a Mormon church, but it is not THE Mormon church. The same goes for the Community of Christ. A note on the origin of the term Mormon: much like how the term Christian was likely first used in a derogatory sense, Mormon was a term popularized by their detractors before it was ultimately co-opted and embraced by Mormons as a handy nickname. But the derogatory connotation still holds for many as Mormon was the term used to refer to Latter Day Saints in things such as “The Mormon Extermination Order” which encouraged and legalized the killing of Mormons in Missouri, an order that remained on the books until the 1970’s. For this reason, many Latter-day Saints and Mormons now take offense to the term Mormon as a reminder of their personal holocaust, or even simply as a sleight against their beliefs when done as an intentional show of disrespect. However, most Mormons have no issue with the term.
That may be a good category for religions like Islam that can draw their origins to Christians but consider themselves as a separate Abrahamic religion. However, for religions like Mormonism which very much consider themselves Christians, but just as strongly separate themselves from other Christian denominations, I think the current category of non-Nicene Christian works perfectly well.
I'd like to believe that the Restorationist tradition of making wacky historical charts to explain their origins is what inspired Matt to start his entire chart-making business.
iirc it was implied that the uhm 'non-mainstream' ideas and practices of his childhood church helped spark a love of geneology. Which is a great outcome for his viewers 😀
I've seen a few of those charts at a Church of Christ in Hattiesburg, Mississippi. Except it left out the Stone-Campbell movement, and just claimed there was always a remnant of true Christians in the background of European history.
As an Atheist who wants to understand the world, I am enjoying these videos. Very good work!!! I knew there were lots of denominations out there, but it is mind blowing how many actually exists!
As someone that grew up Seventh Day Adventist, I find these charts fascinating. Really interesting to see all the different branches come out about throughout history. Especially appreciate the context you add for each section. Concise and useful.
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Interesting chart. Still not accurate, but at least puts everybody in their place approximately. Regarding Seventh-Day Adventists, I would say, contrary to the chart, that they are all non-Nicaene as well, not because they are non-trinitarian, but because the most important Adventist book after the Bible (Great Controversy, chapter 4) traces the beliefs of Adventists to the Seventh-Day Waldensians, which in turn traces them to the first Christians. So, on the chart, the Pauline Christians would split into Chruch-State Christians (Nicene) and independent Scripture believers, and out of these independent Scripture believers would come out the Seventh-Day Waldensians, which would fade out, but pass on the Sabbath observance to others. Adventist-Millerites spring up as a merger of protestants in the 19th century, but when they adopted Sabbath observance, by that act they denied the authority of Nicaea and resuscitated the Waldensians. That's because Nicaea's Council's boss was Constantine the Great which, 4 years prior to the council, he also changed by law the observance of Sabbath to the first day of the week since his decree on March 7th, 321 AD to our days (fact). Seventh-Day Adventists deny the authority of Constantine of uniting Church and State and change Sabbath observance to Sunday observance by law, therefore, by implication, they deny the authority of Constantine of summoning the Council of Nicaea.
@ Actually, it is YOUR information which is not entirely accurate. While Constantine's "Edict of Constantine" did suggest using Sunday as a day of rest, it was primarily targeted for the administration not for the general population. In addition it was never a "law", only a guide. Moreover, it did not remove worshiping on Saturday. It only added Sunday as an option.
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@@maddog8082 While this law did not affect the Sabbath, it did set a precedent with long-term implications. About 50 years after his death, Theodosius I and later emperors enacted Sunday rest laws with added Christian meaning. The main point I made in my comment is that Chruch-State Nicaean Christianity never legitimately covered all categories of Christians, as the chart would suggest. And by what authority did Constantine "guide" city-dwellers to observe Sunday "optionally" (he himself not even being baptized at that time), if not by Church-State clerical authority which wanted to enforce Sunday by law?
@ what I love about your comment is that this "interesting take" on history has led to so many inaccurate beliefs and views of SDA's. Sadly, the history that SDA's are taught is viewed with Ellen white lens and sadly very biased. I say this as an former SDA for over 18 years. After learning what the scriptures teach, church history and what the reformers said themselves, I can no longer identify with a church that I view as fundamentally flawed. There were people worshiping on Sunday before Constantine - please consult (Justin martyr, ireaneus, tetulian and the Didache) The Sabbath day was and is seen to be ritual/ceremonial law by Jews before and current/ early Christians and Christians today. It's inclusion in the 10 commandments does not equal moral law. (This was my wake up call). Not all moral laws are contained in the 10 and there is no reason why one could not have been included. It was all law. This helps explain why it is this commandment only that does not repeat in the same way in Deuteronomy. Please read "from Sabbath to Lord's day" for a thorough analysis of scripture/ theology and history. The overwhelming evidence is not on the fact that Constantine changed the day or that early Christians wanted to change the day. Sunday worship was developed and then later on rest developed over time. But even the rest was different to a Sabbath rest. But they understood that Sabbath along with circumcision and all other ceremonial laws were fulfilled in Christ.
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@@Sora-yq1td Sorry to hear that you believe that not all 10 Commandments given at Sinai are moral laws. Sabbath observance is the only sign given in the Bible by which we, the children of Israel, know that the Lord sanctifies us. Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus: "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed." // "And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them. But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them." (taken from Exodus 31:12-17; Ezekiel 20:11,12,13)
Great video as always. Two things I want to bring up about Jehovah's Witnesses. 1. There probably should be a separation between Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses. After Charles Taze Russel died there was a schism that resulted in a few splinter groups such as the Laymen's Home Missionary Movement, Free Bible Students and Dawn Bible Students Association. The group that kept ownership of the Watchtower and Tract Society renamed themselves Jehovah's Witnesses after the schism in the 1930s. 2. Little nitpick, but the Witnesses don't deny the pronunciation of Yahweh, but see Jehovah as the English equivalent of the name, similar to Jesus being the English version for the Hebrew name Yeshua.
@@Planag7 lol that’s not true. It’s a “regional respect” thing. If in the area it’s deemed not professional then members will be encouraged to not have beards while preaching.
Absolutely correct on the name part, my mother who is a JW was brought up as a Jew and speaks Hebrew They do see Jehovah as an English version of Yahweh This is common, for instance I have many Jewish relatives and some have English versions of their names such as Yakov (Jacob) When they talk to us in English they will often use the English version of their name and the Hebrew version when talking to each other.
Another thing is even though Jehovah witnesses disagree with a lot of Taze Russell’s statements, mainly Jesus returning to earth in 1874, but he did NOT teach that the world would end in 1914, rather he taught that it was the end of “ The Gentile Times” and that Gods kingdom began In heaven that year
Charles didn't even form the current group in the first place, as he never wanted it to become a religion under any circumstances. In fact, he publicly stated this many times. It was on his deathbed that Rutherford hijacked the group, and formed the religion after having tampered with Charles' will, as Rutherford wanted control and run a religion that badly, so he could exploit people's donations to the religion formed of it to feed his own extremely lavish desires, leading to him owning a bunch of mansions for himself, and a whole horde of super luxury cars for himself.
I am finding your series absolutely fascinating. Bought up Methodist, becoming a believer in a "supreme being" at the age of 19 converted to Pentecostal. In Australia this was the Revival Centres. By the age of 70 I became totally disolusioned and stopped going to church completely though I remain a belieer. Seeing all the splits over all the years I can only see the hand of man. Thank goodness God will look at our hearts and not our church affiliation.
For the love of all that is sacred and holy. Please never stop posting. I am using this as a cram session for the history classes that I was never taught or were glossed over. That are important to know about and why the world is where it is now.
As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I really appreciate the respect you showed to our religion in this video. I thought it was well-balanced, academically-based, and fair. I love that you are covering this topic and have enjoyed all the videos in this series so far. It has helped me understand other church origins, and see what churches have common beliefs with mine. Keep up the good work!
Yes you did a great job, just one note about our name, we have been encouraged to refer to the members as Later-Day Saints(one of several recommended suggested preferences for our people,) but we have been asked to refer to the church as The Church of Jesus Christ not LDS Church.
Here's a list of Brazilian Christian denominations that exceed 1 million members: 1. Christian Congregation in Brazil (Congregação Cristã no Brasil) - between 2,8 mi and 4,5 mi - neopentecostal 2. Universal Church of the Kingdom of God (Igreja Universal do Reino de Deus) - 1,873 mi - neopentecostal 3. International Grace of God Church (Igreja Internacional da Graça de Deus) - 1,5 mi - neopentecostal 4. Brazilian Baptist Convention (Convenção Batista Brasileira) - 1,790 mi - Baptist, associated with the Baptist World Alliance
@@prof.davidgonzalezcorrea7096I have a friend that is adventist and never tought of that question, does the church in Brazil is the same "denomination" for other adventist churchs in the world? Because in my denomination I know that they brench out from the original US church
Maybe Christian Scientists should go on the chart? I know they're not very populous now but they had a decent impact in history, enough to be recognised here I would think.
I was just wondering this, myself. While they may have more roots in common with Spiritualism & Mesmerism, they do claim to be a branch of Christianity.
I was thinking the same thing, especially since Knowing Better recently did a video about them. It's a historically significant denomination even though it has few followers today. It looks like it began during the Third Great Awakening, so Matt might cover it in the next episode.
The LDS church also believes in a form of dispensationalism. That's what the "latter-day" part comes from. I really love this series! I especially appreciate the respectful approach to everything.
The only difference I can see is that dispensationalism defines the final dispensation as the fulfillment of Christ's coming and the end of the Grace, whereas the LDS church believes that they currently live within the final dispensation to be ENDED with the coming of Christ.
@@paulgarduno2867 we base it from the book of revelations - we expand it as God reveals further, which he can and will as he pleases, which he has always done.
Most mormons i have seen a great people, however, how can you not see you are in a cult that preaches false doctrine? "Mormons believe Jesus is a god, but that any human can also become a god (Doctrine and Covenants 132:20;," No one can achieve the status of God-only He is holy (1 Samuel 2:2). We can only be made holy in God’s sight through faith in Him (1 Corinthians 1:2).
@@PowerLord83 If someone believes their church teaches false doctrine, they wouldn't be a member of that church. So those that are a part of a church believe its doctrine and probably believe its the other churches that are preaching false doctrine. So your question is really why haven't all Mormons left that religion. The answer to that question is :They Believe Its Doctrine. Now if you ask the question why do Mormons believe their doctrine, you have to ask a Mormon. I'm sure most would be happy to tell you why they believe.
@@PowerLord83 I myself take anything that Joseph Smith said with a grain of salt. (He was-to say the absolute least-a man of questionable repute.) But apropos your point, methinks that he confused the Abrahamic *Almighty God* (an eternal self-created being) with the Wiccan *Horned-god* (a legendary hero-not unlike Hercules, Odin, or Utnapishtim-who was born mortal, but achieved divinity as a reward for his extreme hope, faith, and charity). Or, more likely, Smith just chose to "cut and paste" from different theologies so as to ensnare his gullible followers.
@@grantorino2325 , clever use of ‘cut and paste’, as if Joseph Smith was either living in 2020, not 1820, or as if he was educated at Oxford, not a farm boy. I give you a C+ on this take.
Hello Matt. We went to the same world wide church in Halifax. Glad to see you have continued your study. I have never forgotten the teaching we received, including sermonets from your father. I continue to search deeper understanding including Jewish and ultimate variety of church and religions. We have a creator in the old testament. He made human to grow in His knowledge and His way of life. Lev. 23. Thank you for your research.
Some denomination I would recommend including it in the chart from Indonesia are: 1. HKBP (Huria Kristen Batak Protestan) they're a Lutheran church in the island of Sumatera primarily and its members are from the Batak people. They're the biggest protestant church in Indonesia with around 4.5 million members. An interesting point about them is the fact that they're Lutheran while most other protestant church in Indonesia are Calvinist, Pentecostal, or Charismatics 2. GBI (Gereja Bethel Indonesia) with around 2.3 million members. I'm not really familiar with them so I couldn't say anything about them 3. GPdi (Gereja Pentakosta di Indonesia) with around 1 million members. I'm not familiar with them either There's a lot of interesting churches in Indonesia. Some of them are based on ethnic lines and some of them are not. Where I live, a church that's quite big is GKII (Gereja Kemah Injili Indonesia) with around 500 thousand members. What interesting about them is that they're very active in evangelizing mission in rural areas. Taking members from the Catholic church if I'm not mistaken
The GKII (Gereja Kemah Injil Indonesia) is a part of the Alliance World Fellowship, or, as it is known in the US, The Christian and Missionary Alliance (C&MA). This denomination started by A.B. Simpson in 1887 is made up of over 6 million members around the world and over 500,000 in the US. The C&MA could be considered for this chart!
@@basocheir and to @iPeeTM: for more accurate and additional info: many Pentecostal denominations in Indonesia, but GPdI is the most renowned and largest among them. They use "Pantekosta" because of their tradition and the correct translation is Pentecostal Church in Indonesia
Indonesian churches still thoroughly uses the mainline doctrine of Protestant. -Lutherans are only found in Sumatera. -Most reformed churches are Calvinist, which are brought by the Dutch, Portuguese, and English. (I.g. GPIB is a dutch reformed, All saints is Anglican, etc) -The biggest number of followers are the charismatic Pentecostal. Despite the influence of ethnic language usage, it doesn't fully change the doctrine. It is mostly a mean of communication and how the church may assimilate better to the local cultures. Like how most Javanese churches are Calvinists, despite the ethnic representation.
Great video as always Matt!! If there's a global denomination that I might suggest would be the Batak Christian Protestant Church (HKBP) which has over 4 million members in Indonesia and representing its largest Christian denomination and a Reformed-Lutheran Church member of the LWF... Anyways I look forward to the conclusion of the series as always. 😊
I’ve always wondered about your path to Judaism. I really appreciated how you talked about it in this video. Maybe you could have a dedicated video on your conversion?
I want to hear more on this topic, too. I grew up in the Church of Christ, studied philosophy, became an atheist, got my MA, and now I’m a Latter-Day Saint.
If I might make one point, we Jehovah's Witnesses don't belive that the Tetragrammaton was pronounced "Jehovah" by Jews, we are taught that "Yahweh" (which as a Jew the author will not pronounce) is the most likely pronunciation by ancient Israelites, we translate that to English as Jehovah like we translate Yeshua to Jesus.
Actually it's not that simple. Jews do not pronounce JHWH in any way. The English-language pronunciation "Jehovah" was introduced by William Tyndale back in XV century (though itself it has an origins in latin Iehoua) and a number of languages adopted similar derivatives. E.g. in my native language, it's one of the two ways that are in the common use, and it's the one used by the JW (the other one being Yahweh, which apparently is closer to how the tetragrammaton was originally vocalized).
To simplify it I think of my name. I am Mexican and my name is Juan. My name in English is John. I speak both languages fluently and funny enough I get called John more often when I speak with Spanish speakers. However when a native English speaker pronounces my name "Juan" it sounds more like the number 1as supposed to "Hw-ahn". Regardless of how people pronounce my name I still reply to my mom yelling "BURRO" across the house. Same deal with the Yahweh vs Jehovah
I learned recently about a term called "full communion" where churches that share certain theological essentials, do services and celebrations together and be led by clergy from any of the denominations in question. It might be an interesting addition to the chart to show what churches are in full communion with each other.
Yes! Like maybe somewhere at the top that shows the largest communions, assuming they meet the population threshold. Also, you maybe interested in the term "altar and pulpit fellowship", which is similar to the idea of communion but for different denominations.
The purposes of these charts on this channel is to be as unjudgmental as possible. I think it shows tact to not mention full communion because it would unavoidably be a controversial theological political statement. It loses accuracy but I feel a different purpose is gained omitting it. It allowed the series to continue much longer without running into "are these people Christian or not" until it was unavoidable to put off any longer with non-Nicene teachings.
Even though it is an omission.....I find it functional. No chart ever will be perfect. What does this chart want to be? The work put into these is art as much as science, or more, but art is not a bad word.
It might be weird if sub-branches are in communion but others are not. Before leaving the ELCIC I recall they were in full communion with the local Anglican denomination, but I don't think any other group was in full communion.
I would add the mormons to your global denominations by population chart, since they are so huge and very influential in many regions, especially the pacific.
The Mormons are on his chart, see the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They had a kind of rebranding to emphasise they are a Christian church but some of their beliefs like multiple creators, secret temple ceremonies and underwear and mandatory tithing of 10% can cause people to call them a sect or cult. But they seem to have about $100 billion in the bank, as a "rainy day fund".
Thank you for all the work you are putting into this series. I've been looking forward to each episode and am learning a lot. Looking forward to episode 7 since the denomination that I grew up in is part of the Holiness movement - Church of God (Anderson).
you should definitely include the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God from Brazil, it has almost 2 million followers in Brazil alone, but is also present in other south american countries. its pretty controversial, and even though we normal brazilians may not like the church itself, we shure would appreciate being included in this series.
@@malachiphoniex8501 The bishop who created the church is a billionaire, Edir Macedo. He controls one of the main open TV channels in Brazil and has contributed significantly to the election of Jair Bolsonaro, one of the main leaders of the extreme right in Brazil and in the world.
Whoa!! I was in the Worldwide Church of God as a kid, as well!! (I even went to SEP in the mid 80s - and met many wonderful Canadian friends there!! They made me want to move to Canada. I still want to! lol) I absolutely did not expect to hear that part of this video!!
I love this series! They will probably show up in the next episode, but I think the Unification Church (aka the Moonies) and the Iglesia ni Cristo deserve a mention on this chart since they both have significant influence in their regions of origin.
@@clint6538, he’s already included some groups that are historically or culturally significant that have been labeled a cult on the chart. Iglesia Ni Cristo and the Unification Church would be appropriate to include
Great stuff!! I appreciate you including your history here too. I am a convert to LDS. I see great value in people coming to understand their individual faith and the juxtaposition of faith and "church". meaning it is more important to practice a faith than to belong to a "church". I respect all faiths and value them.
I also loved this video! I am an LDS convert, but grew up in the Church of Christ! I don’t know how I feel about respecting all faiths, I don’t ever like to say that all religions are created equally.
@@colingraham1585 I respect all people and their right to have their own beliefs, but I wouldn’t say that I respect all faiths/belief systems themselves.
The 1914 theory is very compelling. If I was living through WWI and knew about this it might have convinced me. Epically since about three and a half years later, you have the battle of Jerusalem and the collapse of the Ottoman lines in Palestine. I am surprised there weren't more people at the time talking about how that must have been Armageddon.
Actually Pope Pius X felt that something terrible would happen in 1914, as when the Emperor of Brazil visited him in 1912, he told the Emperor that he would be fortunate to be far away from Europe at that time. Pope Pius X also died in August 1914.
Part of the original update to the end of the world with a JW's involves World War 1. If some of their high-ranking people start dying soon or two generations away from that that's when a lot of stuff starts going down. As an apostate myself am looking forward to that! Let them condemn, and show their true colors
The allied commander Edmund Allenby during the 1st World War won the crucial battle against the Ottoman Turks in Sept.1918 near Nablus rather than Tel Megiddo(trad. site of the Biblical final battle of ARMAGGEDON),but later he deliberately renamed it,because of the bovious biblical and historical symbolism.Allenby was later ennobled as 1st Viscount Allenby of MEGIDDO,which his family still holds.
The Korean Methodist Church has over a million members, and so does the Assemblies of God in Korea which is home to the largest church in the world, Yeoido Full Gospel Church so that should definitely be added to the next video on Pentecostals! Also besides the Tonghap and Hapdong Korean Presbyterian denominations listed here there are actually tons of splinter denominations that use the name “Korean Presbyterian Church” (over 100) - it may be good to mark something on the chart that indicates such, as right now it implies that the single Korean Presbyterian church nearly divided into just two. The six largest (two already shown are: - Tonghap - Hapdong - Gijang (208K members) - Baekseok (1.5M members) - Daeshin (61K members) - Goshin (388K members) And while searching those numbers Baekseok has over 1M members so that should absolutely be added in too.
I grew up in the 2x2 Church, sometimes called the No Name Church. I'm not an expert but it may be part of the Third Great Awakening, as it started in the late 1890s from Faith Missions in England, Ireland, and Scotland. It's one of the world's largest secret sects, and I think it would make a great inclusion in your next video. There are a few reference books on the church, including The Secret Sect, Cult to Christ, and The Church with No Name.
I think I've heard of this church--and I hope I'm not confusing it with another. Just as Jesus sent the disciples out two by two at one point during His ministry. this group sends its members out two by two. I first heard of it around 1979, and what few sources I could find about it thought it was a new group at the time. If it goes back to the 1890's, that would be interesting. The reason I heard about it was that some members of my church encountered them. These people had gone to the church to clean it one evening, and they neglected to lock the doors behind them when they went inside. When one of them looked up from his vacuuming, there were two strangers standing in front of him in the church. He asked them who they were and what they wanted. They wanted to spend the night in the church. That was a big "no" because they didn't know who they were or what they might do. They then got into a heated theological debate with the church-cleaners. It ended with one of the strangers saying to one of them, "You've got death on your feet, sister." They said that because she was wearing leather shoes, and apparently the two-by-two's don't allow the use of leather.
@@bigscarysteve it was back to 1890 if the record was true atleast from academic perspective (the church always they are direct continuation from Jesus himself).
Yes, I wanted to mention that too. It is a restaurationist church (no official name, calls themselves The Truth, The Way, missionaries go out in groups of 2, meeting in homes), having originated in the 1890s in Ireland, and then spreading to England and America. Names for research on the founders: William Irvine, Edward Cooney Unclear if they are Nicene or non-Nicene. That is left open to personal interpretation of scripture I guess.
This has been a very interesting series! I learn a lot about the different types of churches, most of whom I've heard of, but not really known much about. In schools in Norway, we sort of stop with Lutheranism, and then look at the Norwegian church history, if we go further at all. I don't blame the schools for skipping all of this though, it get REALLY complicated. And thank you for pointing out that LDS are non-Nicene, I have never thought about that, but it makes sense.
This series has been so fascinating. I am atheist but was raised Christian and my mother is Church Of England Anglican Christian and currently lives in a predominantly Catholic country in Spain with my step dad. I have a lot of respect for people who have faith as long as they don't use faith as an excuse or justification for harm to others and from an educational and academic standpoint I have an interest in religion so this series has been really interesting to follow and would love to see you do a similar series for other faiths maybe like Judaism or Islam. I think especially with huge rises in Islamophobia and Antisemitism in recent years more knowledge of these faiths and the history of them would serve people well. Bigotry and hat often comes from misunderstanding and lack of information. If people had more knowledge of a subject then maybe they would be less inclined to spread hate and fear about the people in those communities.
Looking forward to Unitarians/Universalists/Unitarian Universalists. I grew up Jehovah's Witness, was an unaffiliated atheist a while, then converted into UU (but still am nontheistic).
Yeah, I didn't get why we were always being confused with Mormons (and JW's) until long after I left the church. Learning about those organizations showed me how fortunate Adventists are that their founding cult leader was a woman.
@@robertmiller9735facts Mormon, JW and seventh Day Adventist are all Flase Christian and religion in my opinion I am in ex JW and I agree with you very similar to the point is very scary my fam are still Jw and friends are still seventh Day Adventist may God bless there heart and guide them! 🙏🏽🤍💗✝️🙌🏽
@@nancia24 You're telling me I wasn't a Christian. I assure you I worshipped Jesus, what more d'ya want?😉"No true Christian" is worthless ego-stroking as far as I'm concerned. I am, however, pleased you escaped the JW's, who are a very abusive cult by all accounts.
Please look into Iglesia ni Cristo and Aglipayan Church, both from the Philippines. They may meet the requirement to be included in the chart. Also what is the next series going to be about? Looking forward to what's next.
Matt has already included the Philippine Independent Church in the chart, as a breakaway group from the Roman Catholic Church in communion with the Anglicans. You may find it mentioned in the beginning of Episode 4. ☺️
I am a youth pastor in a non-denominational church that has it's roots as an Open Brethren, one of the two branches off of Plymouth Brethren. In Canada, all the Open Brethren churches became called "chapels" (I work at Grace Chapel) while the Exclusive Brethrens call their churches Gospel Halls. Anyway would have loved to hear you talk about that split too
OK, they are both way too small but I will mention them anyway: First, the People's Church of the Faroe Islands (Hin føroyska fólkakirkjan). It is a relatively new church only found in the Faroe Islands and it's an off shoot of the Danish People's Church, i.e. the Lutheran Church. Even though it only has about 40,000-ish members, it is an official state church, maybe the smallest in the world. The second is also from the Faroe Islands but it's a branch of the Plymouth Brethren. I don't know if it's Open or Exclusive (although I'm fairly certain it's derived from then Open Brethren) but percentage wise it's probably the largest in the world as it's followed by about 12% of the Faroese population, so 5-6,000 people. The first person to bring the Brethren to the Faroes was a Scotsman, btw. So yes, both of these are far away from the 1,000,000 figure but I figured that somebody would find this interesting. Great job with these videos, Matt. Keep up the good work.
I really admire how you're covering all this history, and even explaining some fundamental aspects of several denominations' faith, despite your personal belief may not coincide. I'm enjoying this series A LOT and learning so much. Thank you!
Hey Matt! Great video, I love this series. It's probable that you'll mention it in the last episode but it would be interesting to place the New Apostolic Church in the chart as it has around 8M followers worldwide. It splitted around 1860 in Germany. If I had to say I would say it shares some of the restorationist tenets, but i don't know where to position it exactly on the chart. Thank you!
I was wondering about this too. I think the official number is just over 9 million. It also could help put the Irvingian branch of Christianity on the list as that is a very interesting story with the Catholic Apostolic Church. I think it technically has roots in the Scottish Anglican church but it would be nice for an expert to draw those connections on the chart for us.
JW here, just a couple of comments I had: We do believe that 1914 marked the beginning of the Last Days but we also believe that this was the time prophesied by Daniel as the end of the 2520 years or the Seven Times of the Gentiles, marking the time Jesus was crowned as King of God’s Kingdom in Heaven, restoring the Davidic line. Also appreciated that you pointed out the Arianism aspect of our origins and beliefs. While we don’t actually subscribe to Arius’ teachings, we are Unitarian in the sense of believing only God the Father is Almighty God as the Scriptures teach. I recognised that in that previous video of yours, i.e. YHWH created Jesus as firstborn. In terms of the pronunciation of the Divine Name, we do actually recognise that Jehovah is very likely NOT the accurate pronunciation of that name but is instead an English translation of the Divine Name, not a transliteration like Yahweh is. However, we have no problem actually using either version of the Name. Jehovah just happens to be a version of that name that has been in use for centuries in the English language. Hope that makes sense. Thanks again for your presentation on this series, it’s been very enlightening.
All the JWs doctrines involving number calculations have proven to be absolute failures. Epic failures. The 1975 expectation was a epic flop. Then the “this generation “ was also a huge epic flop. Here we are in 2023 and that generation are gone. No great tribulation. How anyone inside the JW can still be duped is shocking. Since JWs do not except Jesus as their Savior they are not traditional “Christianity”. No the JWs are not Christians.
Also a JW. I find the criticism of the pronounciation of gods name lacks something as well. Jesus wasn’t pronounced Jesus in the Aramaic language they spoke at the time. It would have been pronounced more like Yjeshu(glottal stop) We don’t make a Yj sound in English and we also don’t have a glottal stop as part of our language either. Why not criticize everyone for not pronouncing Jesus correctly? Also, the vowel sounds aren’t attached to any historical spelling of Gods name so even Yahweh cannot be confirmed.
@@esquire9445 You guys should look up Bible Projects video series on the Shema. They give a great history on the writing of God's name that explains how it went from Ehyeh (I will be) to Jehovah.
I'm loving this series! I grew up in the EFCA church, while my mom grew up in the Plymouth Brethren, and my Dad I think some other Evangelical-type church. It's so interesting to see which groups split off from other groups, when various ideas developed, and so on. Though I consider myself an agnostic these days, I still find religion to be a very interesting topic.
I love how simply you organize everything on this chart. Reading through the comments, I don't even know how you'd put this or other churches on this chart, but the Philippine Church "Iglesia ni Cristo" has 2 million + members worldwide. I feel like you'd probably have to do an entire new chart for post-colonial post-Catholic Christianity in the Spanish and Portuguese empires for these, so I get why you're sticking to the UK, US, and Canada - the US alone already has a complex Christian history. Thanks for all you do!
Loving this series! One suggestion - the churchs in communion with each other should be indicated through a speical box or a clearer color key. The "denominations" listed under orthodox, catholic and anglican churches are often in communion with each other. This should be clearly displayed in contrast with the churches whose branches are not in communion with each other. Thanks so much for all of your work on this!
As per my comment on your second video, I feel like the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic (ICAB) and Liberal Catholic Churches (and the hundreds of Independent Catholic "micro-denominations" that spawned from them) might be worth a mention. Some other interesting streams might be "metaphysical" Christianity, with heirs such as Unity Church and Christian Science, and the "Irvingites", represented by the Catholic Apostolic Church and the New Apostolic Church. I hope your next episode will cover the Church of the Nazarene as part of the Holiness Movement. Love your work!
I´d love if you add to the next chart the chilean pentecostalism, which are more than 2 million people, and it´s different from US pentecostalism. The most important difference is that chilean pentecostalism is strongly identified as methodist pentecostal, so they baptize infants, hace classes and circuits, etc. And something interesting is that the biggest split in methodist pentecostalism was because of instruments
Honestly, as someone who grew up in a Catholic church I'm glad you're in a place now where you feel like it's okay to have doubts and questions, as it's always felt very healthy to me to ask questions and look at things differently.
Love the work you’ve done on this chart! I’d like to see where you put the Filipino church, Iglesia ni Cristo on this chart as they fit the bill of being large enough. Can’t wait for the next video
I appreciate your method of explaining the different beliefs in this video. It's useful to have a informative and non judgemental attitude when dealing with topics like this. You have my thanks!
There are around 250,000 Messianic Jews in the U.S, you should add them into there. I know some people that are and it would be awesome to see them represented here
The Oneida community is another group that would be interesting to add in the 2nd great awakening. Also, the FLDS are not the only fundamentalist group to break off in the early 20th century. They’re pretty small, but maybe adding “and others” with the FLDS would be good?
As I recall, they're not even the largest polygamist group - that honor goes to the Apostolic United Brethren. However, like David Koresh's branch davidians, they are the most notable.
I loved this series and will buy your chart on this (& maybe another or 2). I attended WCG’s Ambassador College in Pasadena for a few semesters & quit after I found out they struggled with getting accredited. Anyway, I was out in CA when they made news over financial reasons & remember a door to Admin. Bldg. being barred. For years, the WCG was in turmoil. I never was baptized & stopped attending there the same time I quit their college. Their church splinters splintered my family.
You should include the Catholic Apostolic Church (Irvingian Movement) to the chart, as it just barely makes the cut, but is also unique and different enough from the other traditions of the Second Great Awakening.
@@jreith1689 I also thought about them because I frequently see their churches here in Northern Germany, from where they originated, though it's actually in Africa where they have millions of members.
But you'll have to give it a specific place as it did not claim to be a sect. Or put lines into every single Nicene Christian denomination that existed at the time.
There’s a religion with a few million members (not known really) called the Two by Twos (it doesn’t really have a name, but is also known as “The Truth" or "The Way”, "No-name Church," "Cooneyites," "Workers and Friends”). I’m not sure where this would fit into the chart but would be interested to see!
My forebears were Cooneyites at one point in history I was intrigued to learn that they were Unitarian A century later I’ve found my way to Unitarian beliefs! Wonder how many people think like me I know a few and we all ‘fly under the radar ‘ in mainline Protestant churches , waiting for a new ‘enlightenment’
He has actually added them to the chart! You can find them at mark 7:13 (I think). They fall under the Higher Life Movement which spawned the Faith Missions and, thus the 2x2s. Hopefully, Matt gives them a shout-out in the next video.
Matt, I love you nerding out over other people's charts! Also, I knew there were a lot of Christian denominations out there, but it really hits me when it takes you seven full episodes listing (only) most of them.
Matt, I was also raised in Armstrongism. When I was a kid we attended the Church of God International which was headed by Herbert's son, Garner Ted. I'm sure you know of him if you attended Ambassador College. Love your work. So glad I stumbled across your channel months ago. Big fan.
I would perhaps consider adding christian scientists and unitarians (including unitarian universalists) to the chart. Both groups are kinda small, and maybe aren't quite Christian, but that's the only blank spot that comes to mind. Great vid as always, can't wait to buy the poster 😀
Christian Science began during the Third Great Awakening, so I suspect Matt might cover in the next episode. At least, I hope so, because it is rather significant even if it is small. It is non-Nicene, but since it claims to be Christian, I think it belongs on the chart. Unitarian Universalism is a little tougher because it doesn't claim to be Christian at all, although it is descended from various groups that were Christian.
@@cswrye Unitarians and Universalists both considered themselves to be Christian for the first 150 years or so of their history. So, historically they fit.
As a seventh day adventist it was interesting to see what became of the millerite movement. Was not taught or I didn't remember being taught about the other split offs.
Love the series. Can you do a series detailing the Rabbinic Judaism and Islam to really build out the Abrahamic religions? I’m extremely interested to see that info in this visual way that you present it.
I really appreciate both the historical background and respectfulness shown to a very complex (and frequently adversarial) topic. I grew up in what I think would fall into the "Christian Church/Churches of Christ" block (lower right in this iteration of the chart) and always struggled with what to call my denomination (since those terms are pretty generic) when talking with other folks. Though I've switched to a Lutheran Church now, I can't wait until this poster is finished and available to purchase, in part so I can point out where the church I grew up in falls on the chart.
One denomination that's definitely worth including next episode is the Christian and missionary alliance. According to their website, the church has over 400k members in the us, and according to wikipedia, the broader alliance world fellowship has over 6 million members worldwide.
Great video, Matt! I have two suggestions regarding Russian Old Believers: 1. Change the start date from 1666 to 1653 when the liturgical reform was started by Nikon. This immediately triggered protests and persecution of protesters, so the schism already existed when Old Believers were condemned by the Moscow Council of 1666. 2. Add two next branches: Popovtsy and Bezpopovtsy. I'm not sure if they pass the criteria for the number of followers, but they are interesting from theological and historical point of view. The Bezpopovtsy are unique in their belief that the apostolic succession has become extinct and therefore most sacraments, while divinely instituted, cannot be performed. This in turn led to appearance of several indigenous Russian movements similar to Protestantism.
This video is more than a year old now, but I wanted to say thank you for your work here. I appreciate that you shared some details about your own journey. I had been been curious. Having been raised LDS and converted to Christianity, I was looking forward to that part of the episode, and I felt like you gave it a fair treatment in relation to how it fit on the chart. The chart itself is excellent, by the way. It's definitely useful to have a visual like this for grasping just how things have played out over the centuries. Thank you.
Thanks for breaking down Mormonism as non-Nicene. Very nice explanation. I wondered how you were going to handle that. You did it perfectly! Respectful, honest, plain and simple. Really enjoying this little series.
Great video. Good discussion of Mormonism and whether they are Christians. I personally don’t think there is a good definition of Christianity that doesn’t include Mormons without being specifically chosen to exclude them. Of course, the Nicene distinction is correct and very helpful. As I’ve watched this channel and Religion for Breakfast, I’ve been fascinated to see the parallels between Mormon theology, pre-nicene theology and even some other modern groups. Interesting note at the end, the LDS church also talks (a lot) about dispensations. The concept is the same, though I think the historical divisions are different, and the LDS refer to the period of the modern church as the Last Dispensation. This might make the LDS technically dispensationalist, though I’m not certain that’s using the term right. I don’t know whether they adopted the concept from contemporary dispensationalists or derived it from the Bible independently. Thanks for bringing a strong academic eye to this topic!
I can explain that! In Latter-day Saint thought, a dispensation is a dynasty of prophets, each of which corresponds to one of the seven seals and seven archangels in the book of Revelation. The first dispensation began with Adam, who is believed to be an incarnate Michael. The second began with Enoch, the third with Noah, who is believed to be Gabriel. The fourth dispensation is Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Ephraim. The fifth goes from Moses to Malachi and covers the rest of the Old Testament. The sixth dispensation is headed by Peter and lasted until the death of the last apostle, and the seventh and final dispensation started with Joseph Smith and continues to this day with the current prophet, and will continue the 2nd coming of Christ, which is thought to be fast approaching.
I do think that you should have a period after the final episode to allow for any corrections or updates to the material in that before you set the poster in stone. The updates thus far have been quite good, and I would hate to see some material excluded from that community review process simply because it was covered last.
I agree. Maybe finish the chart with an episode covering the Third Great Awakening/Holiness Movement, and then do one final episode for any corrections/errata.
I give you kudos on your presentation, especially on the lesser known (to Baptists at least!) denominations. I am completely comfortable using this as a teaching and/or conversation aid in church!
The dispensational charts shown remind me of a similar chart produced by Charles Taze Russell (Bible Students→Jehovah's Witnesses) in his book "The Divine Plan of the Ages" originally published in 1886. Although modern-day Jehovah's Witnesses do not promote the idea of dispensations, the world being restored or recreated as God intended it is very much an important JW doctrinal teaching. These episodes and charts of the major Christian denominations are historically fascinating and so helpful...thank you!
Hi!! I am bingeing this whole series right now and would like to extend my thanks and my commendation on your work. Very interesting history!! And those old charts and diagrams I love those. I ordered the world history chart(book), the tree of life chart and the writing systems of the world chart. I want to turn my living room into a history exhibit lol. Especially those old ones, like the old physiognomy charts. The change and ebb and flow of knowledge just fascinates me! Thank you!!🙏 I consider myself a "loose Christian", maybe not one in the traditional sense, I pray and believe in God, and believe he delivered me from a lot of my vices (still a work in progress) but I undoubtedly owe my life to him. But the way that you can offer this knowledge of religion in such an academically non partisan way while belonging, yourself, to a certain one is greatly appreciated. If more people were open minded to others beliefs then the world would be a greater place. Greetings from sunny Florida 😎😇
It has been more than 20 years since I’ve heard this. I believe I had 2 friends and their families were in “Worldwide Church of God”. From what I remember, they didn’t celebrate Christmas/birthdays. One of my friends said that it was a mixture of Judaism and Catholicism. I also believe that they needed to clean out the closets in the springtime of any leavened items. I may be misremembering some things that I heard.
My mother was raised in the Stone side of the Stone-Campbell movement before converting to Judaism. I knew you were going to bring up the musical instrument thing because it’s so important to their identity, and because they are so anti-denominational (not to be confused with non-denominational) and refuse any name other than CoC, this is literally how they signal each other. My grandmother, the only person in that family who stayed in the church, would always open up the phone book in hotel rooms out of town to call “Churches of Christ” and ask them if they used mechanical instruments, and if they said “no”, that was her signal that she could attend that church.
They uniquely also scorn any church institution that is not worship based and scriptural, some have separate rooms for bible study but that’s it, they believe churches should not have gyms, schools (most homeschool), hospitals or anything like that, on the basis that the first century church did not and scripture doesn’t specify. If you want to send your kid to a bible camp or Christian school you have to do non-denominational and keep it on the DL or just not. They also share a lot of traditions with Jehovah’s Witnesses but it’s like a flex rather than strictly required. Many do not celebrate Christmas or birthdays and especially not Easter, a “pagan holiday”, although some will participate and lighten up to keep company. Very strange and fascinating bunch.
@@ZipplyZane that is their words, not mine, I am Jewish, and that is exactly what they mean, because the Bible says to “lift voices to God”, that is the only valid instrument.
As a member of the church, I will say that non-instrumental probably refers to the use of a pitch pipe by the song leader to get a starting pitch. The churches of Christ are typically a capella and congregational, but there are many who are starting to use "praise teams" to do a lot of the background singing. As weird as it might be, issues around the growing trend of introducing praise teams and hand clapping are still causing strain in the membership to this day.
@@gusbreslauer713 I'm sorry, but there are several things in your description that aren't accurate, at least with respect to the mainline church of Christ. My church, which is not unusual, has both a gym and a school and supports several bible camps. I'm not sure what JW traditions you are referring to, but that's news to me. It's true they don't celebrate Christmas or Easter, but not because they are "pagan," rather because holidays in general discouraged in scripture. Not celebrate birthdays? I've celebrated all 57 of mine, so not sure where you got that. Peace
An embarrassing, but true statement: I didn't know about the Worldwide Church of God for years, even after I moved to Pasadena, CA. Didn't know who it was and had never heard of it, despite being on the Ambassador campus for concerts. It was only when I was at Fuller Seminary working on my MA that I heard about it and the story of the process by which it became Nicene, at least from the Fuller perspective, as I was tied in there. I have since met people active in the church, but still was unaware of the full history of it. This illuminates a whole aspect of how they are tied in that I didn't even know about, so thank you!
Wow! I wish I had had this chart a couple of years ago when I was researching these topics. I generally use "Restorationist" as a catch-all covering all these groups that saw themselves as restoring the true church from general corruption, so the Mormons, JWs, Adventists, and Stone-Campbelites. This really was the uniting aspect of this extraordinary and interrelated group of movements and really sets them apart from the general field of belief and history. Obviously, these were extremely dynamic movements and had a great number of differences between them.
Just want to say as a JW I am loving this chart, only thing I would point out with our use of the name Jehovah that's just in English and it's a translation that is from the name yhwh just like how Jesus is not spelled or spoken the same way in every language.
As an active member of the LDS faith, I have to commend you on your research. Everything you said about the LDS church and the various branching sects was spot on. Well done.
You can add the "Mexican Traditional Apostolic Catholic Church"? It has been a branch of Catholism that has grown quite in recent years in Mexico, but many other churches condemn and forbid it, considering it idolatry or satanism. It is estimated to have between 2 and 5 million followers currently.
I'm excited for the third awakening! Not sure if Christian science will be included but it probs should be because of its influence on laws and culture in the US. They have a reading room right by a college campus near me and it's weird hearing about their beliefs in animal magnetism and the like
As a member of SDA too , I have to say Matt did a commendable job. Funny thing is , I stumbled on this channel while searching for stuff regarding the Persian-Achaemenid Empire and it's relationship with the Muslim conquests.
I, too, am an Agnostic; however, I originally come out off the Charasmstic Sect. I am in my mid 40s, and spent my first 40 years of life as a tongue talking Christian. I spent several years in the ministry, lead who knows how many to Christ, just to watch it unravel on me. Once you see the man behind the curtain, the wizard loses his magicalness. Lot of this stuff you're talking I know, but you're also introducing new information as well. Good job brother.
Check out Ready to Harvest’s video here:
ruclips.net/video/XWiUyhjCQRE/видео.html
Bosnian churche heresy of bogomolisam
@@animal9432 I explain my story in the video. I was once a Christian but then later, I became an atheist. Then, after that, I converted to Judaism via the official method.
Hey Matt, can you indicate where a Christian denomination is considered a separate Abrahamic religion like Mandaeism, Rastafarism, and Mormonism? They may consider themselves as a Christian denominations while the other denominations may see them as heresies kr separate religions. So it may be best to mark them as separate Abrahamic religions with origins in Christianity
A suggested change: While Joseph’s Smith’s church was originally organized under the name “Church of Christ” and underwent a few name changes, the name they settled on, “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,” is theologically significant.
The name was given through a direct revelation from God to Joseph Smith declaring what God’s personal church ought to be called. This revelation is canonized in Latter Day Saint scripture as Doctrine & Covenants: section 115.
Because of this theological significance, the name change to “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” ought to be included on the chart prior to the death of Joseph Smith, separately from the modern denomination: “The Church of *Jesus Christ* of Latter-day Saints” (As properly formatted). Similar to how the name change from Reorganized LDS to Community of Christ is noted on the chart.
The recent emphasis from the modern denomination on avoiding the nickname Mormon when referring to the church proper is the result of leaders urging members to be more theologically in line with section 115. They also advise that the name not be abbreviated. Similar to how Jews do not use the terms BC and AD for theological reasons.
However, The Church of *Jesus Christ* of Latter-day Saints has not rejected the term Mormon, and they still employ the term for other uses and for subsidiary organizations, and they maintain the trademarks. But they specifically does not use it when referring to the church proper of its members.
It is still taxonomically correct to use Mormon to refer to the various denominations of the sect of Mormonism individually or collectively, as denominations that adhere to the Book of Mormon. (Especially when used to refer to non-Latter Day Saint Mormons that do not hold to Section 115 or Joseph Smith’s later teachings) For example, The Church of *Jesus Christ* of Latter-day Saints is a Mormon church, but it is not THE Mormon church. The same goes for the Community of Christ.
A note on the origin of the term Mormon: much like how the term Christian was likely first used in a derogatory sense, Mormon was a term popularized by their detractors before it was ultimately co-opted and embraced by Mormons as a handy nickname. But the derogatory connotation still holds for many as Mormon was the term used to refer to Latter Day Saints in things such as “The Mormon Extermination Order” which encouraged and legalized the killing of Mormons in Missouri, an order that remained on the books until the 1970’s. For this reason, many Latter-day Saints and Mormons now take offense to the term Mormon as a reminder of their personal holocaust, or even simply as a sleight against their beliefs when done as an intentional show of disrespect. However, most Mormons have no issue with the term.
That may be a good category for religions like Islam that can draw their origins to Christians but consider themselves as a separate Abrahamic religion. However, for religions like Mormonism which very much consider themselves Christians, but just as strongly separate themselves from other Christian denominations, I think the current category of non-Nicene Christian works perfectly well.
I'd like to believe that the Restorationist tradition of making wacky historical charts to explain their origins is what inspired Matt to start his entire chart-making business.
Do you not agree with his assessment ?
Agreed. In particular I agree with "wacky".
iirc it was implied that the uhm 'non-mainstream' ideas and practices of his childhood church helped spark a love of geneology.
Which is a great outcome for his viewers 😀
I've seen a few of those charts at a Church of Christ in Hattiesburg, Mississippi. Except it left out the Stone-Campbell movement, and just claimed there was always a remnant of true Christians in the background of European history.
Wacky? Maybe wacky to you, or maybe they are all wacky. Please give them respect as they would to you.
As an Atheist who wants to understand the world, I am enjoying these videos. Very good work!!! I knew there were lots of denominations out there, but it is mind blowing how many actually exists!
The traditional 40 thousand denominations is likely an over estimate, but there sure are a lot...
this isn't even scratching the surface... LITERALLY the tip of the iceberg. literally.
Only one matter brother. Only one.
The image of a Menorah placed reverently in front of a Map of Narnia has to be just about the greatest thing I have ever seen. Ever.
"Next Year in Cair Paravel"
Seriously it's awesome
The map was actually hand drawn by me and given to my wife as a present. We both loved those books growing up.
@@UsefulCharts WOW that is so awesome
@@UsefulCharts I also loved seeing the Narnia map! Further up and further in!!
Great job on this video. I love the entire series, so thanks!
As someone that grew up Seventh Day Adventist, I find these charts fascinating.
Really interesting to see all the different branches come out about throughout history.
Especially appreciate the context you add for each section. Concise and useful.
Interesting chart. Still not accurate, but at least puts everybody in their place approximately. Regarding Seventh-Day Adventists, I would say, contrary to the chart, that they are all non-Nicaene as well, not because they are non-trinitarian, but because the most important Adventist book after the Bible (Great Controversy, chapter 4) traces the beliefs of Adventists to the Seventh-Day Waldensians, which in turn traces them to the first Christians. So, on the chart, the Pauline Christians would split into Chruch-State Christians (Nicene) and independent Scripture believers, and out of these independent Scripture believers would come out the Seventh-Day Waldensians, which would fade out, but pass on the Sabbath observance to others. Adventist-Millerites spring up as a merger of protestants in the 19th century, but when they adopted Sabbath observance, by that act they denied the authority of Nicaea and resuscitated the Waldensians. That's because Nicaea's Council's boss was Constantine the Great which, 4 years prior to the council, he also changed by law the observance of Sabbath to the first day of the week since his decree on March 7th, 321 AD to our days (fact). Seventh-Day Adventists deny the authority of Constantine of uniting Church and State and change Sabbath observance to Sunday observance by law, therefore, by implication, they deny the authority of Constantine of summoning the Council of Nicaea.
@ Actually, it is YOUR information which is not entirely accurate. While Constantine's "Edict of Constantine" did suggest using Sunday as a day of rest, it was primarily targeted for the administration not for the general population. In addition it was never a "law", only a guide. Moreover, it did not remove worshiping on Saturday. It only added Sunday as an option.
@@maddog8082 While this law did not affect the Sabbath, it did set a precedent with long-term implications. About 50 years after his death, Theodosius I and later emperors enacted Sunday rest laws with added Christian meaning. The main point I made in my comment is that Chruch-State Nicaean Christianity never legitimately covered all categories of Christians, as the chart would suggest. And by what authority did Constantine "guide" city-dwellers to observe Sunday "optionally" (he himself not even being baptized at that time), if not by Church-State clerical authority which wanted to enforce Sunday by law?
@ what I love about your comment is that this "interesting take" on history has led to so many inaccurate beliefs and views of SDA's.
Sadly, the history that SDA's are taught is viewed with Ellen white lens and sadly very biased. I say this as an former SDA for over 18 years. After learning what the scriptures teach, church history and what the reformers said themselves, I can no longer identify with a church that I view as fundamentally flawed.
There were people worshiping on Sunday before Constantine - please consult (Justin martyr, ireaneus, tetulian and the Didache)
The Sabbath day was and is seen to be ritual/ceremonial law by Jews before and current/ early Christians and Christians today. It's inclusion in the 10 commandments does not equal moral law. (This was my wake up call). Not all moral laws are contained in the 10 and there is no reason why one could not have been included. It was all law. This helps explain why it is this commandment only that does not repeat in the same way in Deuteronomy.
Please read "from Sabbath to Lord's day" for a thorough analysis of scripture/ theology and history.
The overwhelming evidence is not on the fact that Constantine changed the day or that early Christians wanted to change the day. Sunday worship was developed and then later on rest developed over time. But even the rest was different to a Sabbath rest.
But they understood that Sabbath along with circumcision and all other ceremonial laws were fulfilled in Christ.
@@Sora-yq1td Sorry to hear that you believe that not all 10 Commandments given at Sinai are moral laws. Sabbath observance is the only sign given in the Bible by which we, the children of Israel, know that the Lord sanctifies us. Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus: "And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed." // "And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them. But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them." (taken from Exodus 31:12-17; Ezekiel 20:11,12,13)
Great video as always. Two things I want to bring up about Jehovah's Witnesses.
1. There probably should be a separation between Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses. After Charles Taze Russel died there was a schism that resulted in a few splinter groups such as the Laymen's Home Missionary Movement, Free Bible Students and Dawn Bible Students Association. The group that kept ownership of the Watchtower and Tract Society renamed themselves Jehovah's Witnesses after the schism in the 1930s.
2. Little nitpick, but the Witnesses don't deny the pronunciation of Yahweh, but see Jehovah as the English equivalent of the name, similar to Jesus being the English version for the Hebrew name Yeshua.
Yeah they all don't like beards because some stupid founder got offended that the guy who is more popular, had one.
Lol stay alive until 75!
@@Planag7 lol that’s not true. It’s a “regional respect” thing. If in the area it’s deemed not professional then members will be encouraged to not have beards while preaching.
Absolutely correct on the name part, my mother who is a JW was brought up as a Jew and speaks Hebrew
They do see Jehovah as an English version of Yahweh
This is common, for instance I have many Jewish relatives and some have English versions of their names such as Yakov (Jacob)
When they talk to us in English they will often use the English version of their name and the Hebrew version when talking to each other.
Another thing is even though Jehovah witnesses disagree with a lot of Taze Russell’s statements, mainly Jesus returning to earth in 1874, but he did NOT teach that the world would end in 1914, rather he taught that it was the end of “ The Gentile Times” and that Gods kingdom began In heaven that year
Charles didn't even form the current group in the first place, as he never wanted it to become a religion under any circumstances. In fact, he publicly stated this many times. It was on his deathbed that Rutherford hijacked the group, and formed the religion after having tampered with Charles' will, as Rutherford wanted control and run a religion that badly, so he could exploit people's donations to the religion formed of it to feed his own extremely lavish desires, leading to him owning a bunch of mansions for himself, and a whole horde of super luxury cars for himself.
I am finding your series absolutely fascinating. Bought up Methodist, becoming a believer in a "supreme being" at the age of 19 converted to Pentecostal. In Australia this was the Revival Centres. By the age of 70 I became totally disolusioned and stopped going to church completely though I remain a belieer. Seeing all the splits over all the years I can only see the hand of man. Thank goodness God will look at our hearts and not our church affiliation.
I love this series. So thoughtful and respectful of each religion.
For the love of all that is sacred and holy. Please never stop posting. I am using this as a cram session for the history classes that I was never taught or were glossed over. That are important to know about and why the world is where it is now.
As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I really appreciate the respect you showed to our religion in this video. I thought it was well-balanced, academically-based, and fair. I love that you are covering this topic and have enjoyed all the videos in this series so far. It has helped me understand other church origins, and see what churches have common beliefs with mine. Keep up the good work!
Agreed!
Amen! I appreciate his effort to be respectful while coming from the outside.
Yes you did a great job, just one note about our name, we have been encouraged to refer to the members as Later-Day Saints(one of several recommended suggested preferences for our people,) but we have been asked to refer to the church as The Church of Jesus Christ not LDS Church.
Amen!
Amen Brother! I recently joined the church a few weeks ago.
Im a Seventh Day Adventist.Thank you for this information.God bless your work
Here's a list of Brazilian Christian denominations that exceed 1 million members:
1. Christian Congregation in Brazil (Congregação Cristã no Brasil) - between 2,8 mi and 4,5 mi - neopentecostal
2. Universal Church of the Kingdom of God (Igreja Universal do Reino de Deus) - 1,873 mi - neopentecostal
3. International Grace of God Church (Igreja Internacional da Graça de Deus) - 1,5 mi - neopentecostal
4. Brazilian Baptist Convention (Convenção Batista Brasileira) - 1,790 mi - Baptist, associated with the Baptist World Alliance
South Korea & Ethiopia have candidates too
Sorry, but the Seventh-day Adventist Church has 1,721,758 members as of June 30, 2020 in Brazil 🙌🏼
Thk for pointing out, i and my family from the Christian Congregation in Brazil, and, for size in my country I assumed that would apper
@@prof.davidgonzalezcorrea7096I have a friend that is adventist and never tought of that question, does the church in Brazil is the same "denomination" for other adventist churchs in the world?
Because in my denomination I know that they brench out from the original US church
Important highlights! But I think the numbers are outdated, since they come from the 2010 census
I as a former Adventist appreciate your work in helping with providing information on churches and their family groups
Maybe Christian Scientists should go on the chart? I know they're not very populous now but they had a decent impact in history, enough to be recognised here I would think.
I was just wondering this, myself. While they may have more roots in common with Spiritualism & Mesmerism, they do claim to be a branch of Christianity.
Absolutely! Though I believe they are third great awakening so they may be in the next episode.
Yeah hopefully it'll be included in the next episode, it's had an outsized impact on the US especially and led to scientology
@@mateusz73 Oh is that right? I'm embarrassed that I never thought to even ask that question myself with the obvious name similarity.
I was thinking the same thing, especially since Knowing Better recently did a video about them. It's a historically significant denomination even though it has few followers today. It looks like it began during the Third Great Awakening, so Matt might cover it in the next episode.
The LDS church also believes in a form of dispensationalism. That's what the "latter-day" part comes from. I really love this series! I especially appreciate the respectful approach to everything.
Am pleasantly surprised we're even on the page Sister.
Thats right!
True dispensationalism is based 100% on the Bible.
Mormonism and every other cult ALWAYS ADD something else. Cults end up denying the Bible.
The only difference I can see is that dispensationalism defines the final dispensation as the fulfillment of Christ's coming and the end of the Grace, whereas the LDS church believes that they currently live within the final dispensation to be ENDED with the coming of Christ.
@@paulgarduno2867 we base it from the book of revelations - we expand it as God reveals further, which he can and will as he pleases, which he has always done.
I’m a Latter Day Saint (Mormon) and I just want to say I really appreciate this video and the respect you show for other faiths.
Most mormons i have seen a great people, however, how can you not see you are in a cult that preaches false doctrine?
"Mormons believe Jesus is a god, but that any human can also become a god (Doctrine and Covenants 132:20;,"
No one can achieve the status of God-only He is holy (1 Samuel 2:2). We can only be made holy in God’s sight through faith in Him (1 Corinthians 1:2).
Repent and believe the gospel !
@@PowerLord83 If someone believes their church teaches false doctrine, they wouldn't be a member of that church. So those that are a part of a church believe its doctrine and probably believe its the other churches that are preaching false doctrine. So your question is really why haven't all Mormons left that religion. The answer to that question is :They Believe Its Doctrine. Now if you ask the question why do Mormons believe their doctrine, you have to ask a Mormon. I'm sure most would be happy to tell you why they believe.
@@PowerLord83
I myself take anything that Joseph Smith said with a grain of salt. (He was-to say the absolute least-a man of questionable repute.)
But apropos your point, methinks that he confused the Abrahamic *Almighty God* (an eternal self-created being) with the Wiccan *Horned-god* (a legendary hero-not unlike Hercules, Odin, or Utnapishtim-who was born mortal, but achieved divinity as a reward for his extreme hope, faith, and charity).
Or, more likely, Smith just chose to "cut and paste" from different theologies so as to ensnare his gullible followers.
@@grantorino2325 , clever use of ‘cut and paste’, as if Joseph Smith was either living in 2020, not 1820, or as if he was educated at Oxford, not a farm boy.
I give you a C+ on this take.
Hello Matt. We went to the same world wide church in Halifax. Glad to see you have continued your study. I have never forgotten the teaching we received, including sermonets from your father. I continue to search deeper understanding including Jewish and ultimate variety of church and religions. We have a creator in the old testament. He made human to grow in His knowledge and His way of life. Lev. 23. Thank you for your research.
It's worth mentioning that there are actually A LOT of LDS splinter group denominations, but most of them are pretty small.
Yes indeed. So very very many. An "alphabet soup" of splinter groups.
@@rachelmohler3383 A veritable ocean of heresy. Charming.
Yeah but RLDS is the biggest split off and FLDS is the most famous, so it makes sense that the others aren't mentioned.
@@jeremias-serus "heresy"
@@crazysarge9765 Yes, heresy.
Some denomination I would recommend including it in the chart from Indonesia are:
1. HKBP (Huria Kristen Batak Protestan) they're a Lutheran church in the island of Sumatera primarily and its members are from the Batak people. They're the biggest protestant church in Indonesia with around 4.5 million members. An interesting point about them is the fact that they're Lutheran while most other protestant church in Indonesia are Calvinist, Pentecostal, or Charismatics
2. GBI (Gereja Bethel Indonesia) with around 2.3 million members. I'm not really familiar with them so I couldn't say anything about them
3. GPdi (Gereja Pentakosta di Indonesia) with around 1 million members. I'm not familiar with them either
There's a lot of interesting churches in Indonesia. Some of them are based on ethnic lines and some of them are not. Where I live, a church that's quite big is GKII (Gereja Kemah Injili Indonesia) with around 500 thousand members. What interesting about them is that they're very active in evangelizing mission in rural areas. Taking members from the Catholic church if I'm not mistaken
The GKII (Gereja Kemah Injil Indonesia) is a part of the Alliance World Fellowship, or, as it is known in the US, The Christian and Missionary Alliance (C&MA). This denomination started by A.B. Simpson in 1887 is made up of over 6 million members around the world and over 500,000 in the US. The C&MA could be considered for this chart!
GBI is part of charismatic movement
Pentakosta is Indonesian word for the Pentecost, it's the Indonesian Pentecostal church
@@basocheir and to @iPeeTM: for more accurate and additional info: many Pentecostal denominations in Indonesia, but GPdI is the most renowned and largest among them. They use "Pantekosta" because of their tradition and the correct translation is Pentecostal Church in Indonesia
Do you know how much member of GPIB?
Indonesian churches still thoroughly uses the mainline doctrine of Protestant.
-Lutherans are only found in Sumatera.
-Most reformed churches are Calvinist, which are brought by the Dutch, Portuguese, and English. (I.g. GPIB is a dutch reformed, All saints is Anglican, etc)
-The biggest number of followers are the charismatic Pentecostal.
Despite the influence of ethnic language usage, it doesn't fully change the doctrine. It is mostly a mean of communication and how the church may assimilate better to the local cultures. Like how most Javanese churches are Calvinists, despite the ethnic representation.
Great video as always Matt!! If there's a global denomination that I might suggest would be the Batak Christian Protestant Church (HKBP) which has over 4 million members in Indonesia and representing its largest Christian denomination and a Reformed-Lutheran Church member of the LWF... Anyways I look forward to the conclusion of the series as always. 😊
as an indonesian i support this comment
@@WannzKaswan and Toraja church to which cathegory belongs? Thx for feedback
@@sorin7581 what
I’ve always wondered about your path to Judaism. I really appreciated how you talked about it in this video. Maybe you could have a dedicated video on your conversion?
I want to hear more on this topic, too. I grew up in the Church of Christ, studied philosophy, became an atheist, got my MA, and now I’m a Latter-Day Saint.
This was my favorite episode of the series so far! The Great Awakenings are fascinating periods of history
They are but I think it worsened the states for the times forever after
If I might make one point, we Jehovah's Witnesses don't belive that the Tetragrammaton was pronounced "Jehovah" by Jews, we are taught that "Yahweh" (which as a Jew the author will not pronounce) is the most likely pronunciation by ancient Israelites, we translate that to English as Jehovah like we translate Yeshua to Jesus.
Actually it's not that simple. Jews do not pronounce JHWH in any way. The English-language pronunciation "Jehovah" was introduced by William Tyndale back in XV century (though itself it has an origins in latin Iehoua) and a number of languages adopted similar derivatives. E.g. in my native language, it's one of the two ways that are in the common use, and it's the one used by the JW (the other one being Yahweh, which apparently is closer to how the tetragrammaton was originally vocalized).
To simplify it I think of my name.
I am Mexican and my name is Juan. My name in English is John. I speak both languages fluently and funny enough I get called John more often when I speak with Spanish speakers. However when a native English speaker pronounces my name "Juan" it sounds more like the number 1as supposed to "Hw-ahn". Regardless of how people pronounce my name I still reply to my mom yelling "BURRO" across the house. Same deal with the Yahweh vs Jehovah
I learned recently about a term called "full communion" where churches that share certain theological essentials, do services and celebrations together and be led by clergy from any of the denominations in question. It might be an interesting addition to the chart to show what churches are in full communion with each other.
Yes! Like maybe somewhere at the top that shows the largest communions, assuming they meet the population threshold. Also, you maybe interested in the term "altar and pulpit fellowship", which is similar to the idea of communion but for different denominations.
The purposes of these charts on this channel is to be as unjudgmental as possible.
I think it shows tact to not mention full communion because it would unavoidably be a controversial theological political statement.
It loses accuracy but I feel a different purpose is gained omitting it.
It allowed the series to continue much longer without running into "are these people Christian or not" until it was unavoidable to put off any longer with non-Nicene teachings.
Even though it is an omission.....I find it functional. No chart ever will be perfect. What does this chart want to be? The work put into these is art as much as science, or more, but art is not a bad word.
@@darthparallax5207 I'm not sure "full communion" would be too controversial. If the churches agree they're in communion, mention it. If not, don't.
It might be weird if sub-branches are in communion but others are not. Before leaving the ELCIC I recall they were in full communion with the local Anglican denomination, but I don't think any other group was in full communion.
I would add the mormons to your global denominations by population chart, since they are so huge and very influential in many regions, especially the pacific.
The Mormons are on his chart, see the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They had a kind of rebranding to emphasise they are a Christian church but some of their beliefs like multiple creators, secret temple ceremonies and underwear and mandatory tithing of 10% can cause people to call them a sect or cult. But they seem to have about $100 billion in the bank, as a "rainy day fund".
As I remember, French polynesia is 10% latter day saint: 5% LDS and 5% Community of Christ
I'd be interested in seeing the interconnectivity and history of the various Pagan faiths. Good episode as always!
Thank you for all the work you are putting into this series. I've been looking forward to each episode and am learning a lot. Looking forward to episode 7 since the denomination that I grew up in is part of the Holiness movement - Church of God (Anderson).
you should definitely include the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God from Brazil, it has almost 2 million followers in Brazil alone, but is also present in other south american countries. its pretty controversial, and even though we normal brazilians may not like the church itself, we shure would appreciate being included in this series.
é presente nos eua tbm, infelizmente.
@@Cr7Micto Americans exported that neopenteconstal trash to us, it is only fair we send some of the recycling back
Forgive an ignorant American lad, but why are they controversial? I've never heard of them so now I'm curious.
@@malachiphoniex8501 The bishop who created the church is a billionaire, Edir Macedo. He controls one of the main open TV channels in Brazil and has contributed significantly to the election of Jair Bolsonaro, one of the main leaders of the extreme right in Brazil and in the world.
Whoa!! I was in the Worldwide Church of God as a kid, as well!! (I even went to SEP in the mid 80s - and met many wonderful Canadian friends there!! They made me want to move to Canada. I still want to! lol)
I absolutely did not expect to hear that part of this video!!
I love this series! They will probably show up in the next episode, but I think the Unification Church (aka the Moonies) and the Iglesia ni Cristo deserve a mention on this chart since they both have significant influence in their regions of origin.
Cults should not be included in the charts
@@clint6538, he’s already included some groups that are historically or culturally significant that have been labeled a cult on the chart. Iglesia Ni Cristo and the Unification Church would be appropriate to include
@@clint6538 Don know wether or not you missed it, but he included the Branch Davidians
@@clint6538 Too late. All of the ones in this video are cults.
Great stuff!! I appreciate you including your history here too. I am a convert to LDS. I see great value in people coming to understand their individual faith and the juxtaposition of faith and "church". meaning it is more important to practice a faith than to belong to a "church". I respect all faiths and value them.
I also loved this video! I am an LDS convert, but grew up in the Church of Christ! I don’t know how I feel about respecting all faiths, I don’t ever like to say that all religions are created equally.
@@colingraham1585
I respect all people and their right to have their own beliefs, but I wouldn’t say that I respect all faiths/belief systems themselves.
The 1914 theory is very compelling. If I was living through WWI and knew about this it might have convinced me. Epically since about three and a half years later, you have the battle of Jerusalem and the collapse of the Ottoman lines in Palestine. I am surprised there weren't more people at the time talking about how that must have been Armageddon.
Actually Pope Pius X felt that something terrible would happen in 1914, as when the Emperor of Brazil visited him in 1912, he told the Emperor that he would be fortunate to be far away from Europe at that time. Pope Pius X also died in August 1914.
Per Knowing Better, this was the foundation of Christian Science eschatology, if I’m not mistaken.
Part of the original update to the end of the world with a JW's involves World War 1.
If some of their high-ranking people start dying soon or two generations away from that that's when a lot of stuff starts going down.
As an apostate myself am looking forward to that! Let them condemn, and show their true colors
@@cmmarsden Sure.. the last brazilian emperor Pedro II died in exile in the year 1891.
The allied commander Edmund Allenby during the 1st World War won the crucial battle against the Ottoman Turks in Sept.1918 near Nablus rather than Tel Megiddo(trad. site of the Biblical final battle of ARMAGGEDON),but later he deliberately renamed it,because of the bovious biblical and historical symbolism.Allenby was later ennobled as 1st Viscount Allenby of MEGIDDO,which his family still holds.
I so enjoy your insights into church history, and especially enjoyed the detailing of your personal spiritual journey in this episode.
Matt should do a video about what all the different denominations teach about what happens after death.
That's more in line with Ready to Harvest, the RUclips channel on Christian denominations collaborating with Matt on this series
People would see how BIG heaven is as taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Korean Methodist Church has over a million members, and so does the Assemblies of God in Korea which is home to the largest church in the world, Yeoido Full Gospel Church so that should definitely be added to the next video on Pentecostals!
Also besides the Tonghap and Hapdong Korean Presbyterian denominations listed here there are actually tons of splinter denominations that use the name “Korean Presbyterian Church” (over 100) - it may be good to mark something on the chart that indicates such, as right now it implies that the single Korean Presbyterian church nearly divided into just two. The six largest (two already shown are:
- Tonghap
- Hapdong
- Gijang (208K members)
- Baekseok (1.5M members)
- Daeshin (61K members)
- Goshin (388K members)
And while searching those numbers Baekseok has over 1M members so that should absolutely be added in too.
This is my favorite series by far!!! It's so fascinating and so well put together! Excited for the series to be all put together.
I grew up in the 2x2 Church, sometimes called the No Name Church. I'm not an expert but it may be part of the Third Great Awakening, as it started in the late 1890s from Faith Missions in England, Ireland, and Scotland. It's one of the world's largest secret sects, and I think it would make a great inclusion in your next video.
There are a few reference books on the church, including The Secret Sect, Cult to Christ, and The Church with No Name.
I think I've heard of this church--and I hope I'm not confusing it with another. Just as Jesus sent the disciples out two by two at one point during His ministry. this group sends its members out two by two. I first heard of it around 1979, and what few sources I could find about it thought it was a new group at the time. If it goes back to the 1890's, that would be interesting.
The reason I heard about it was that some members of my church encountered them. These people had gone to the church to clean it one evening, and they neglected to lock the doors behind them when they went inside. When one of them looked up from his vacuuming, there were two strangers standing in front of him in the church. He asked them who they were and what they wanted. They wanted to spend the night in the church. That was a big "no" because they didn't know who they were or what they might do. They then got into a heated theological debate with the church-cleaners. It ended with one of the strangers saying to one of them, "You've got death on your feet, sister." They said that because she was wearing leather shoes, and apparently the two-by-two's don't allow the use of leather.
@@bigscarysteve it was back to 1890 if the record was true atleast from academic perspective (the church always they are direct continuation from Jesus himself).
Yes, I wanted to mention that too. It is a restaurationist church (no official name, calls themselves The Truth, The Way, missionaries go out in groups of 2, meeting in homes), having originated in the 1890s in Ireland, and then spreading to England and America. Names for research on the founders: William Irvine, Edward Cooney
Unclear if they are Nicene or non-Nicene. That is left open to personal interpretation of scripture I guess.
This has been a very interesting series! I learn a lot about the different types of churches, most of whom I've heard of, but not really known much about. In schools in Norway, we sort of stop with Lutheranism, and then look at the Norwegian church history, if we go further at all. I don't blame the schools for skipping all of this though, it get REALLY complicated.
And thank you for pointing out that LDS are non-Nicene, I have never thought about that, but it makes sense.
This series has been so fascinating. I am atheist but was raised Christian and my mother is Church Of England Anglican Christian and currently lives in a predominantly Catholic country in Spain with my step dad. I have a lot of respect for people who have faith as long as they don't use faith as an excuse or justification for harm to others and from an educational and academic standpoint I have an interest in religion so this series has been really interesting to follow and would love to see you do a similar series for other faiths maybe like Judaism or Islam. I think especially with huge rises in Islamophobia and Antisemitism in recent years more knowledge of these faiths and the history of them would serve people well. Bigotry and hat often comes from misunderstanding and lack of information. If people had more knowledge of a subject then maybe they would be less inclined to spread hate and fear about the people in those communities.
Amen!
Looking forward to Unitarians/Universalists/Unitarian Universalists. I grew up Jehovah's Witness, was an unaffiliated atheist a while, then converted into UU (but still am nontheistic).
I grew up SDA. My best friend and I went to go see The Book of Mormon. There was soo much in common with how we were raised. Now, it makes sense why.
Yeah, I didn't get why we were always being confused with Mormons (and JW's) until long after I left the church. Learning about those organizations showed me how fortunate Adventists are that their founding cult leader was a woman.
@@robertmiller9735facts Mormon, JW and seventh Day Adventist are all Flase Christian and religion in my opinion I am in ex JW and I agree with you very similar to the point is very scary my fam are still Jw and friends are still seventh Day Adventist may God bless there heart and guide them! 🙏🏽🤍💗✝️🙌🏽
@@nancia24 You're telling me I wasn't a Christian. I assure you I worshipped Jesus, what more d'ya want?😉"No true Christian" is worthless ego-stroking as far as I'm concerned.
I am, however, pleased you escaped the JW's, who are a very abusive cult by all accounts.
Please look into Iglesia ni Cristo and Aglipayan Church, both from the Philippines. They may meet the requirement to be included in the chart.
Also what is the next series going to be about? Looking forward to what's next.
I was just about to type about that denomination, and there are actually a few of those churches in Canada.
Yes indeed!
Matt has already included the Philippine Independent Church in the chart, as a breakaway group from the Roman Catholic Church in communion with the Anglicans. You may find it mentioned in the beginning of Episode 4. ☺️
I am a youth pastor in a non-denominational church that has it's roots as an Open Brethren, one of the two branches off of Plymouth Brethren. In Canada, all the Open Brethren churches became called "chapels" (I work at Grace Chapel) while the Exclusive Brethrens call their churches Gospel Halls. Anyway would have loved to hear you talk about that split too
OK, they are both way too small but I will mention them anyway: First, the People's Church of the Faroe Islands (Hin føroyska fólkakirkjan). It is a relatively new church only found in the Faroe Islands and it's an off shoot of the Danish People's Church, i.e. the Lutheran Church. Even though it only has about 40,000-ish members, it is an official state church, maybe the smallest in the world. The second is also from the Faroe Islands but it's a branch of the Plymouth Brethren. I don't know if it's Open or Exclusive (although I'm fairly certain it's derived from then Open Brethren) but percentage wise it's probably the largest in the world as it's followed by about 12% of the Faroese population, so 5-6,000 people. The first person to bring the Brethren to the Faroes was a Scotsman, btw. So yes, both of these are far away from the 1,000,000 figure but I figured that somebody would find this interesting. Great job with these videos, Matt. Keep up the good work.
I agree with your comment here.
I really admire how you're covering all this history, and even explaining some fundamental aspects of several denominations' faith, despite your personal belief may not coincide. I'm enjoying this series A LOT and learning so much. Thank you!
Hey Matt! Great video, I love this series. It's probable that you'll mention it in the last episode but it would be interesting to place the New Apostolic Church in the chart as it has around 8M followers worldwide. It splitted around 1860 in Germany.
If I had to say I would say it shares some of the restorationist tenets, but i don't know where to position it exactly on the chart.
Thank you!
I was wondering about this too. I think the official number is just over 9 million.
It also could help put the Irvingian branch of Christianity on the list as that is a very interesting story with the Catholic Apostolic Church. I think it technically has roots in the Scottish Anglican church but it would be nice for an expert to draw those connections on the chart for us.
@bongmuon Roots were non-denominational, as it never claimed to be a sect, and had members from all over the chart.
@@jeremywilliams5107 Yeah I think it was just Irving that came from there.
JW here, just a couple of comments I had: We do believe that 1914 marked the beginning of the Last Days but we also believe that this was the time prophesied by Daniel as the end of the 2520 years or the Seven Times of the Gentiles, marking the time Jesus was crowned as King of God’s Kingdom in Heaven, restoring the Davidic line.
Also appreciated that you pointed out the Arianism aspect of our origins and beliefs. While we don’t actually subscribe to Arius’ teachings, we are Unitarian in the sense of believing only God the Father is Almighty God as the Scriptures teach. I recognised that in that previous video of yours, i.e. YHWH created Jesus as firstborn.
In terms of the pronunciation of the Divine Name, we do actually recognise that Jehovah is very likely NOT the accurate pronunciation of that name but is instead an English translation of the Divine Name, not a transliteration like Yahweh is. However, we have no problem actually using either version of the Name. Jehovah just happens to be a version of that name that has been in use for centuries in the English language. Hope that makes sense.
Thanks again for your presentation on this series, it’s been very enlightening.
All the JWs doctrines involving number calculations have proven to be absolute failures. Epic failures. The 1975 expectation was a epic flop. Then the “this generation “ was also a huge epic flop. Here we are in 2023 and that generation are gone. No great tribulation. How anyone inside the JW can still be duped is shocking. Since JWs do not except Jesus as their Savior they are not traditional “Christianity”. No the JWs are not Christians.
Also a JW. I find the criticism of the pronounciation of gods name lacks something as well. Jesus wasn’t pronounced Jesus in the Aramaic language they spoke at the time. It would have been pronounced more like Yjeshu(glottal stop) We don’t make a Yj sound in English and we also don’t have a glottal stop as part of our language either. Why not criticize everyone for not pronouncing Jesus correctly? Also, the vowel sounds aren’t attached to any historical spelling of Gods name so even Yahweh cannot be confirmed.
@@esquire9445 Thank you for pointing this out! So many people either forget this or don’t know about it.
You still think you're the one and only valid Christian denomination.
@@esquire9445 You guys should look up Bible Projects video series on the Shema. They give a great history on the writing of God's name that explains how it went from Ehyeh (I will be) to Jehovah.
I'm loving this series! I grew up in the EFCA church, while my mom grew up in the Plymouth Brethren, and my Dad I think some other Evangelical-type church. It's so interesting to see which groups split off from other groups, when various ideas developed, and so on. Though I consider myself an agnostic these days, I still find religion to be a very interesting topic.
I love how simply you organize everything on this chart.
Reading through the comments, I don't even know how you'd put this or other churches on this chart, but the Philippine Church "Iglesia ni Cristo" has 2 million + members worldwide.
I feel like you'd probably have to do an entire new chart for post-colonial post-Catholic Christianity in the Spanish and Portuguese empires for these, so I get why you're sticking to the UK, US, and Canada - the US alone already has a complex Christian history. Thanks for all you do!
Iglesia ni Cristo seems to have some Millerite heritage, so maybe in there? Or maybe Restorationist (it makes that claim)? It's definitely non-Nicene.
Please do a Buddhist version of this series.
He probably has no expertise in buddhism, but I would also love it.
Loving this series! One suggestion - the churchs in communion with each other should be indicated through a speical box or a clearer color key. The "denominations" listed under orthodox, catholic and anglican churches are often in communion with each other. This should be clearly displayed in contrast with the churches whose branches are not in communion with each other. Thanks so much for all of your work on this!
As per my comment on your second video, I feel like the Brazilian Catholic Apostolic (ICAB) and Liberal Catholic Churches (and the hundreds of Independent Catholic "micro-denominations" that spawned from them) might be worth a mention.
Some other interesting streams might be "metaphysical" Christianity, with heirs such as Unity Church and Christian Science, and the "Irvingites", represented by the Catholic Apostolic Church and the New Apostolic Church.
I hope your next episode will cover the Church of the Nazarene as part of the Holiness Movement.
Love your work!
I'm LDS (Mormon) and have been looking forward to this episode! Another fantastic video!!! Thank you!
I´d love if you add to the next chart the chilean pentecostalism, which are more than 2 million people, and it´s different from US pentecostalism. The most important difference is that chilean pentecostalism is strongly identified as methodist pentecostal, so they baptize infants, hace classes and circuits, etc.
And something interesting is that the biggest split in methodist pentecostalism was because of instruments
Honestly, as someone who grew up in a Catholic church I'm glad you're in a place now where you feel like it's okay to have doubts and questions, as it's always felt very healthy to me to ask questions and look at things differently.
Love the work you’ve done on this chart! I’d like to see where you put the Filipino church, Iglesia ni Cristo on this chart as they fit the bill of being large enough. Can’t wait for the next video
I appreciate your method of explaining the different beliefs in this video. It's useful to have a informative and non judgemental attitude when dealing with topics like this. You have my thanks!
There are around 250,000 Messianic Jews in the U.S, you should add them into there. I know some people that are and it would be awesome to see them represented here
Non Nicene is a great notation. Very helpful to chart out and see the differences and lineage of each belief claiming to follow Jesus.
The Oneida community is another group that would be interesting to add in the 2nd great awakening. Also, the FLDS are not the only fundamentalist group to break off in the early 20th century. They’re pretty small, but maybe adding “and others” with the FLDS would be good?
As I recall, they're not even the largest polygamist group - that honor goes to the Apostolic United Brethren. However, like David Koresh's branch davidians, they are the most notable.
I loved this series and will buy your chart on this (& maybe another or 2). I attended WCG’s Ambassador College in Pasadena for a few semesters & quit after I found out they struggled with getting accredited. Anyway, I was out in CA when they made news over financial reasons & remember a door to Admin. Bldg. being barred. For years, the WCG was in turmoil. I never was baptized & stopped attending there the same time I quit their college. Their church splinters splintered my family.
You should include the Catholic Apostolic Church (Irvingian Movement) to the chart, as it just barely makes the cut, but is also unique and different enough from the other traditions of the Second Great Awakening.
There is a rather lovely Catholic Apostolic Church in Abinger Hammer, Surrey.
There is also the New Apostolic church which branches of from there which has much more members (about 9 Million in 2016 I think)
@@jreith1689 I also thought about them because I frequently see their churches here in Northern Germany, from where they originated, though it's actually in Africa where they have millions of members.
@@highpath4776do you mean Albury?
But you'll have to give it a specific place as it did not claim to be a sect. Or put lines into every single Nicene Christian denomination that existed at the time.
There’s a religion with a few million members (not known really) called the Two by Twos (it doesn’t really have a name, but is also known as “The Truth" or "The Way”, "No-name Church," "Cooneyites," "Workers and Friends”).
I’m not sure where this would fit into the chart but would be interested to see!
My forebears were Cooneyites at one point in history
I was intrigued to learn that they were Unitarian
A century later I’ve found my way to Unitarian beliefs!
Wonder how many people think like me
I know a few and we all ‘fly under the radar ‘ in mainline Protestant churches , waiting for a new ‘enlightenment’
Based on wikipedia it was one million members around the world in 1990s but dwindling to 850k today. I was in that group long ago.
They’re very hard to find since they are not open to the general public and do not meet in identifiable establishments
I suspect they might fall under Socinians
Like the Christadelphians!
He has actually added them to the chart! You can find them at mark 7:13 (I think). They fall under the Higher Life Movement which spawned the Faith Missions and, thus the 2x2s. Hopefully, Matt gives them a shout-out in the next video.
This has been a really great series. I’ve definitely learned a lot! Sad that it will be over!
Matt, I love you nerding out over other people's charts!
Also, I knew there were a lot of Christian denominations out there, but it really hits me when it takes you seven full episodes listing (only) most of them.
Woo! Ex-JW here and Im always curious about how they diverged from mainstream Christianity.. Love all your videos but especially excited for this one!
they diverged by rejecting core biblical teachings.
Matt, I was also raised in Armstrongism. When I was a kid we attended the Church of God International which was headed by Herbert's son, Garner Ted. I'm sure you know of him if you attended Ambassador College. Love your work. So glad I stumbled across your channel months ago. Big fan.
I would perhaps consider adding christian scientists and unitarians (including unitarian universalists) to the chart. Both groups are kinda small, and maybe aren't quite Christian, but that's the only blank spot that comes to mind. Great vid as always, can't wait to buy the poster 😀
Christian Science began during the Third Great Awakening, so I suspect Matt might cover in the next episode. At least, I hope so, because it is rather significant even if it is small. It is non-Nicene, but since it claims to be Christian, I think it belongs on the chart. Unitarian Universalism is a little tougher because it doesn't claim to be Christian at all, although it is descended from various groups that were Christian.
@@cswrye Unitarians and Universalists both considered themselves to be Christian for the first 150 years or so of their history. So, historically they fit.
Due to the impact that unitarians and universalists had on universities, it is fair that they enter.
@@andersbeckett You're right! I rewatched that part, and it's there, along with the groups that preceded it.
As a seventh day adventist it was interesting to see what became of the millerite movement. Was not taught or I didn't remember being taught about the other split offs.
Love the series. Can you do a series detailing the Rabbinic Judaism and Islam to really build out the Abrahamic religions? I’m extremely interested to see that info in this visual way that you present it.
Ambassador University Administration Building, Big Sandy, TX.
It feels like a lifetime ago.
Nice chart Matt!
This is the episode I've been waiting for since you started this series. Thank you.
I really appreciate both the historical background and respectfulness shown to a very complex (and frequently adversarial) topic. I grew up in what I think would fall into the "Christian Church/Churches of Christ" block (lower right in this iteration of the chart) and always struggled with what to call my denomination (since those terms are pretty generic) when talking with other folks. Though I've switched to a Lutheran Church now, I can't wait until this poster is finished and available to purchase, in part so I can point out where the church I grew up in falls on the chart.
One denomination that's definitely worth including next episode is the Christian and missionary alliance. According to their website, the church has over 400k members in the us, and according to wikipedia, the broader alliance world fellowship has over 6 million members worldwide.
Great video, Matt!
I have two suggestions regarding Russian Old Believers:
1. Change the start date from 1666 to 1653 when the liturgical reform was started by Nikon. This immediately triggered protests and persecution of protesters, so the schism already existed when Old Believers were condemned by the Moscow Council of 1666.
2. Add two next branches: Popovtsy and Bezpopovtsy. I'm not sure if they pass the criteria for the number of followers, but they are interesting from theological and historical point of view. The Bezpopovtsy are unique in their belief that the apostolic succession has become extinct and therefore most sacraments, while divinely instituted, cannot be performed. This in turn led to appearance of several indigenous Russian movements similar to Protestantism.
I didn’t know that’s what the origin of “mainline” was! Thanks for teaching us all so much 😊
This video is more than a year old now, but I wanted to say thank you for your work here.
I appreciate that you shared some details about your own journey. I had been been curious.
Having been raised LDS and converted to Christianity, I was looking forward to that part of the episode, and I felt like you gave it a fair treatment in relation to how it fit on the chart.
The chart itself is excellent, by the way. It's definitely useful to have a visual like this for grasping just how things have played out over the centuries. Thank you.
Even though I am Jewish, this might be my favorite video series other than the Roman emperors ones.
Thanks for breaking down Mormonism as non-Nicene. Very nice explanation. I wondered how you were going to handle that. You did it perfectly! Respectful, honest, plain and simple. Really enjoying this little series.
Great video. Good discussion of Mormonism and whether they are Christians. I personally don’t think there is a good definition of Christianity that doesn’t include Mormons without being specifically chosen to exclude them. Of course, the Nicene distinction is correct and very helpful.
As I’ve watched this channel and Religion for Breakfast, I’ve been fascinated to see the parallels between Mormon theology, pre-nicene theology and even some other modern groups. Interesting note at the end, the LDS church also talks (a lot) about dispensations. The concept is the same, though I think the historical divisions are different, and the LDS refer to the period of the modern church as the Last Dispensation. This might make the LDS technically dispensationalist, though I’m not certain that’s using the term right. I don’t know whether they adopted the concept from contemporary dispensationalists or derived it from the Bible independently. Thanks for bringing a strong academic eye to this topic!
I can explain that! In Latter-day Saint thought, a dispensation is a dynasty of prophets, each of which corresponds to one of the seven seals and seven archangels in the book of Revelation.
The first dispensation began with Adam, who is believed to be an incarnate Michael. The second began with Enoch, the third with Noah, who is believed to be Gabriel. The fourth dispensation is Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Ephraim. The fifth goes from Moses to Malachi and covers the rest of the Old Testament. The sixth dispensation is headed by Peter and lasted until the death of the last apostle, and the seventh and final dispensation started with Joseph Smith and continues to this day with the current prophet, and will continue the 2nd coming of Christ, which is thought to be fast approaching.
An interesting sub-chart for this series would be a path from the birth of Christianity to now of Sabbath keeping Christians.
I do think that you should have a period after the final episode to allow for any corrections or updates to the material in that before you set the poster in stone. The updates thus far have been quite good, and I would hate to see some material excluded from that community review process simply because it was covered last.
I agree. Maybe finish the chart with an episode covering the Third Great Awakening/Holiness Movement, and then do one final episode for any corrections/errata.
I give you kudos on your presentation, especially on the lesser known (to Baptists at least!) denominations. I am completely comfortable using this as a teaching and/or conversation aid in church!
The dispensational charts shown remind me of a similar chart produced by Charles Taze Russell (Bible Students→Jehovah's Witnesses) in his book "The Divine Plan of the Ages" originally published in 1886. Although modern-day Jehovah's Witnesses do not promote the idea of dispensations, the world being restored or recreated as God intended it is very much an important JW doctrinal teaching.
These episodes and charts of the major Christian denominations are historically fascinating and so helpful...thank you!
Ya. They gave up on the dispensation thing after way to many predictions for the beginning of Armageddon were proven wrong.
Hi!! I am bingeing this whole series right now and would like to extend my thanks and my commendation on your work.
Very interesting history!! And those old charts and diagrams I love those. I ordered the world history chart(book), the tree of life chart and the writing systems of the world chart. I want to turn my living room into a history exhibit lol. Especially those old ones, like the old physiognomy charts. The change and ebb and flow of knowledge just fascinates me! Thank you!!🙏
I consider myself a "loose Christian", maybe not one in the traditional sense, I pray and believe in God, and believe he delivered me from a lot of my vices (still a work in progress) but I undoubtedly owe my life to him.
But the way that you can offer this knowledge of religion in such an academically non partisan way while belonging, yourself, to a certain one is greatly appreciated. If more people were open minded to others beliefs then the world would be a greater place.
Greetings from sunny Florida 😎😇
17:38 Thanks for mentioning the Seventh Day Baptists. It would be nice if you could include them on the chart please.
I’m LDS and really appreciate this video. I learned quite a bit. Thanks!
It has been more than 20 years since I’ve heard this. I believe I had 2 friends and their families were in “Worldwide Church of God”. From what I remember, they didn’t celebrate Christmas/birthdays. One of my friends said that it was a mixture of Judaism and Catholicism. I also believe that they needed to clean out the closets in the springtime of any leavened items. I may be misremembering some things that I heard.
Great lesson and chart - thanks - 46-year GCI member
My mother was raised in the Stone side of the Stone-Campbell movement before converting to Judaism. I knew you were going to bring up the musical instrument thing because it’s so important to their identity, and because they are so anti-denominational (not to be confused with non-denominational) and refuse any name other than CoC, this is literally how they signal each other. My grandmother, the only person in that family who stayed in the church, would always open up the phone book in hotel rooms out of town to call “Churches of Christ” and ask them if they used mechanical instruments, and if they said “no”, that was her signal that she could attend that church.
They uniquely also scorn any church institution that is not worship based and scriptural, some have separate rooms for bible study but that’s it, they believe churches should not have gyms, schools (most homeschool), hospitals or anything like that, on the basis that the first century church did not and scripture doesn’t specify. If you want to send your kid to a bible camp or Christian school you have to do non-denominational and keep it on the DL or just not. They also share a lot of traditions with Jehovah’s Witnesses but it’s like a flex rather than strictly required. Many do not celebrate Christmas or birthdays and especially not Easter, a “pagan holiday”, although some will participate and lighten up to keep company. Very strange and fascinating bunch.
"Mechanical instruments"? Is that just your way of saying the voice is still an instrument? Or are there other non-mechanical instruments?
@@ZipplyZane that is their words, not mine, I am Jewish, and that is exactly what they mean, because the Bible says to “lift voices to God”, that is the only valid instrument.
As a member of the church, I will say that non-instrumental probably refers to the use of a pitch pipe by the song leader to get a starting pitch. The churches of Christ are typically a capella and congregational, but there are many who are starting to use "praise teams" to do a lot of the background singing. As weird as it might be, issues around the growing trend of introducing praise teams and hand clapping are still causing strain in the membership to this day.
@@gusbreslauer713 I'm sorry, but there are several things in your description that aren't accurate, at least with respect to the mainline church of Christ. My church, which is not unusual, has both a gym and a school and supports several bible camps. I'm not sure what JW traditions you are referring to, but that's news to me. It's true they don't celebrate Christmas or Easter, but not because they are "pagan," rather because holidays in general discouraged in scripture. Not celebrate birthdays? I've celebrated all 57 of mine, so not sure where you got that. Peace
An embarrassing, but true statement: I didn't know about the Worldwide Church of God for years, even after I moved to Pasadena, CA. Didn't know who it was and had never heard of it, despite being on the Ambassador campus for concerts. It was only when I was at Fuller Seminary working on my MA that I heard about it and the story of the process by which it became Nicene, at least from the Fuller perspective, as I was tied in there. I have since met people active in the church, but still was unaware of the full history of it. This illuminates a whole aspect of how they are tied in that I didn't even know about, so thank you!
Maybe you could put a special outline to indicate which churches are mainline churches
Wow! I wish I had had this chart a couple of years ago when I was researching these topics.
I generally use "Restorationist" as a catch-all covering all these groups that saw themselves as restoring the true church from general corruption, so the Mormons, JWs, Adventists, and Stone-Campbelites. This really was the uniting aspect of this extraordinary and interrelated group of movements and really sets them apart from the general field of belief and history. Obviously, these were extremely dynamic movements and had a great number of differences between them.
Just want to say as a JW I am loving this chart, only thing I would point out with our use of the name Jehovah that's just in English and it's a translation that is from the name yhwh just like how Jesus is not spelled or spoken the same way in every language.
As an active member of the LDS faith, I have to commend you on your research. Everything you said about the LDS church and the various branching sects was spot on. Well done.
You can add the "Mexican Traditional Apostolic Catholic Church"? It has been a branch of Catholism that has grown quite in recent years in Mexico, but many other churches condemn and forbid it, considering it idolatry or satanism. It is estimated to have between 2 and 5 million followers currently.
This has been an amazing look. Shalom to you, my friend, from a Catholic and (with a far ascendence) Sephardi Jew!
I'm excited for the third awakening! Not sure if Christian science will be included but it probs should be because of its influence on laws and culture in the US. They have a reading room right by a college campus near me and it's weird hearing about their beliefs in animal magnetism and the like
As an Seventh Day Adventist I really appreciate you spending time on my church and not dissing EG White. Thank you.
As a member of SDA too , I have to say Matt did a commendable job. Funny thing is , I stumbled on this channel while searching for stuff regarding the Persian-Achaemenid Empire and it's relationship with the Muslim conquests.
I, too, am an Agnostic; however, I originally come out off the Charasmstic Sect. I am in my mid 40s, and spent my first 40 years of life as a tongue talking Christian. I spent several years in the ministry, lead who knows how many to Christ, just to watch it unravel on me. Once you see the man behind the curtain, the wizard loses his magicalness.
Lot of this stuff you're talking I know, but you're also introducing new information as well. Good job brother.