We had one four car set in Victoria known as the 4D. Double Deck Development and Demonstration train. Coupled it to a 3 car Comeng. Nice to drive as I remember. Ran it into the ground and scrapped it. End of that trial !
Yes Richard I do remember that you lot had a Tangara for trial purposes. For the Sydney 2000 Olympics PANIC, management had even considered getting that four car set back, regardless of the gauge. Management had also considered hiring some Met drivers, until we pointed out that you lot use different signals down there. I spent a week in Transport House reviewing the proposed safeworking alterations for the Olympics. I heard a number of management proposals. Steve.
Absolutely devastated me when the tangaras came out I used to love sitting up the front of the first red rattler carriage pull the window up and enjoy every second of the big diesel engine and the black diesel smoke would come in the window.
I remember going on an S set round city circle via Town Hall around July 2002 from Central to Town Hall and it was very loud at the time but now they've upgraded the tracks it's more quiet. Did any S set Comeng motor cars on sector 2 lines have headlights back in 2002?
G'day Harish, I am not sure bout the provision of headlights on S sets. But, I do recollect while I was belting around down there in smog hollow during 1993 that when running on the Richmond branch if the train had a headlight and that had failed, the train had to proceed at restricted speed over level crossings, BUT if the train did NOT have a headlight, it could travel at full road speed. Steve.
That's amazing nowadays with the S sets. After Waratah trains being introduced and the carriages got converted with some L and R set motor cars and trailer cars with headlights now, those cars with headlights can be behind another 4 car set and is never used for example S43 and S127 has a motor headlight and S135 and S124 has a trailer car headlight. S123 used to have one but as the trailer was converted it has been taken off with the blue guard light. On another note do you have any old videos of driving the train between North Sydney tunnel to Waverton? I like to see the brown rusty stanchions that I take an interesting part off.
G'day Harish, I am not sure just what video I possess of the smog hollow metrop. I have not bothered to view it for many moons. But, I don't think that I shot any cab video up the North Shore. As to S sets, again it has been a very long time since I was last involved with suburban trains, so things would have changed a lot since then, especially in regard to the provision of headlights, and "visibility lights" required today. Steve.
Howdy David, The standard brake system being used is the EP (electro-pneumatic) with blended regenerative on motor cars. Regenerative brake system turns the traction motors into generators resulting in magnetic friction to slow wheel rotation. There are seven steps of application and release of the brakes, making it fairly easy to adjust braking force. Working any train in westinghouse air brake requires more attention, but still works well. You may need to use the air brake when EP fails. The main problem with the Tangara design is the Wheel Slide sensor. This will activate when any wheel slip and or slide occurs and this reduces or fully releases the brakes. This system was implemented to prevent skidded wheels due to being locked up. So, when any rain occurs you could cop the wheel slide and potential braking dramas. Some tangaras have run into things when the brakes were kicked off by the wheel slide sensor. It is a long time since I was last in the cab of any smog hollow suburban train. So, I don't know how the more modern sets perform.
G'day Jeremy, that was a long time ago, but from memory there was track work which had altered some train running. Trains can proceed to Penrith from the City Inner track via Central. Steve.
Hey Steve. Sorry for late response. Oh ok. I actually did notice that a few weeks ago when I was in Sydney (I live in Perth but I used to live in Sydney until 2012) that a service I was on was a Penrith to Museum via Town Hall, which I had found out via TripView.This was due to trackwork along the North Shore Line.
G'day Ian, no my footplate career ended down in Tassie in mid 2007. It does please me that the Tassie railway is now back under government control. Steve.
Hi Aussie, cool video - Bought back good memories for me driving the T/G Sets also! Not so fun in the rain but yer...:) I wanted to ask at 2m 50 secs in the video you apply the brake but it sounds more like the Auto brake rather than the EP brake, is this correct? If this is correct, was it normal to use the Auto brake in normal service back in the 90's? My driver trainer made me drive an 8 car T set down the shore using Auto brakes only - was a slower trip than normal lol :). But I did get an appreciation of the skill behind mastering the Auto brake compared to the rather easy to use EP brake.
G'day Scoot, Yes, I was using the westinghouse brake instead of EP briefly. Four car sets were much easier to stop when using westinghouse and kept you awake. Most ETR blokes were required to work a train in westinghouse on their trial trip. Likewise with me down the shore. The day that I relieved an 8 car S set where the EP had failed proved amusing. I belted the thing out to Snake Gully ok. It had been late into town, but I recovered the time. You had to come in hard to overcome the load compensator action when in westinghouse. I phoned the quipies telling them that the thing was not good brake wise. They refused to fail it as I had recovered the time. So, I bludged all the way back to town and they met me stating the the thing must be no good due to the time that I lost. HA! I got the thing failed. Steve.
Hi Aussie, Cheers for the reply - I can understand it would be much easier to stop using the Westinghouse in a 4 car set but still you look so chilled out when using it. I wish I got to operate more 4 car sets but by the time I went from guard to driver they had stopped amalgamating/dividing and all sets were 8 Car sets. Not sure where you mean "snake creek" but Its funny and not surprising they didn't want to fail the set so you took matters into your own hands lol! What do you think of these new trains now? Like the A-Set? My personal opinion is they are very boring to drive and don't keep you on your toes/interested as much as the older S/C/K sets etc.
G'day Scoot, Snake Gully is what the old hands referred to for East Hills. I ain't been up the front of a suburban squirt for over two decades. So, I don't know how they perform. During the brief time that I was down in smog hollow, I liked the Chopper sets. You could hurl them around in Westinghouse plus notch them up manually during wet weather. Worst thing about a Tangarbage, all or nothing in Series. And the stupid wheel slide sensor during wet conditions. The W sets were also fun to drive. Them K sets are just too heavy for the S set traction gear and take all day to get mobile. Roared around with 12 cars one nite for some fun. Blew up the overhead down near Casula. Told the ASM who met me at Liverpool that it musta been the freighter in front of me. He accepted that excuse to tell Electrouble, obviously not seeing the diesels on that freighter. HA! Yes, the ETR would be vastly different today to how it was. Sadly, the fun also evaporated out of the freight side. Steve.
Hey Steve, Okay got it - I will now be calling East Hills "Snake Gully" lol. Fair enough, I can tell you there isn't much "character" in them anymore. They even look like Chinese plastic. One Master controller for accelerating and braking and a couple of computer screens. Don't get me wrong I understand the benefits of technology but for a driver I feel they just get more boring. Performance is somewhat better but meh. Me too - I thought the C-Sets were awesome, although I didn't get to experience them a lot as they were operating on a different sector. And you are right the notching up manually during wet weather was fun and a good challenge especially in peak times with high passenger loads. It took me a while to learn how to do it correctly so it was a good thing my driver trainer was patient. Yes haha with the tangaras I would pretty much go straight into Series unless shunting or restricted conditions etc. The wheel slide light was very annoying - would light up like a disco while the motor amp dial would raise and fall rapidly. Although they are not my favorite train I just really liked the view you would get from the drivers desk - Very open and a nice wide view in front of you. Hahaha I love your story - "It was the freighter in front of me" - very funny! Why 12 cars? Was it an empty service or being transferred to another depot? Also could you tell me which side of things you enjoyed more overall? Freight or ETR?
G'day Scoot, The 12 cars would have been an empty transfer run, 8 car K set plus 4 car S set from memory, going to Flemmo. Do them Tangarbages still whistle ? Draught coming in the cab front door. Freight was probably more entertaining. But, also more frustrating at times. I always liked Alcos, not EMDs. So, when we lost most of the Alcos, I got fed up with sitting on EMDs. The Tassie English Electrics were ok, after I got used to their idiosyncrasies. The 46 class butter boxes were a buzz to drive, but had become VERY painful cab condition wise. The 86ers were great fun to drive, notch 2 for holding when manually notching up in Series (notch one holding on a squirt), but they were over the load with the 3300 tonner coalies and the frames all cracked. Work is work, great some days and woeful other days. Steve.
What is the difference between Auto Westinghouse and electro pneumatic brakes. Does the reach lever need to do a special sequence or is the Westinghouse brake just stronger than ep?
G'day Oliver, Electro Pneumatic brake system involves three wires of a cable connecting the car magnet valves. The Westcode 7 step EP system provides 7 steps of graduated application and release of the brakes. Via energizing various combinations of those three wires, according to the position of the drivers brake valve. Main Reservoir air pressure is fed via the magnet valves to the relay valve to the brake cylinders. This is much faster to activate than traditional Westinghouse automatic brake system. The traditional Westinghouse system involves a reduction in Brake Pipe pressure according to brake valve position. That activating the car triple valves or control valves to allow auxiliary reservoir air pressure to enter the brake cylinders. Traditional Westinghouse provides for graduated brake application but ONLY Full Release, not graduated release. Some "experimental drivers" would do a Westinghouse Jiffy to get a partial release. But, that was Illegal, so I won't go there. The Tangarbage Westinghouse system does permit graduated release but only three or four zones from memory. Older suburban emu trains ran with a Brake Pipe pressure of 425 kpa. But, more modern squirts may have 500 kpa BP which is the equivalent of freight trains which run at 500 kpa BP. The Tangarbage also provides Regenerative Brake on motor cars blended with EP. Regen turns the traction motors into generators which helps to retard the wheel rotation. Regen functions on the motor cars until train speed is reduced to around 5 kph and then only EP functions. Regen provides the bulk of train speed reduction assisted by EP on the trailers. Switch off the EP, or it fails, and you loose the regen brake, and only have Westinghouse. The tangarbage also has disc brakes unlike previous squirts which had clasp brake block rigging. As to individual EP brake step pressures versus Westinghouse, it was a LONG time ago and my memory fades. I do recollect a maximum brake cylinder pressure of 230 kpa. But, I don't recollect if that was EP step 7, OR Westinghouse Full Service / Emergency. Running a squirt on Westinghouse, depending upon gradient, you may need to apply the brakes earlier. Running on EP, you can apply later, making a heavier application, and gradually release as you slow down. On a locomotive, Minimum Reduction of 50 kpa would result in a brake cylinder pressure of around 75 kpa. Full Service reduction of 175 kpa would result in a brake cylinder pressure of around 325 kpa. Though, locos with single brake blocks per wheel would have a slightly higher BC pressure at full service. A locomotive is much heavier compared to a squirt car, therefore requiring greater BC pressure to stop. EP step 1 would probably equate to around 35 kpa BC pressure. The K sets possessing air con are heavier than S sets, but both only having EP, or Westinghouse. The K set would require a heavier EP application to stop compared to an S set. The EP and Westinghouse brake systems are individual in operation, but overlapped. When the driver initially applies the EP brake, this also makes a Westinghouse minimum reduction. And, when the driver finally releases the EP brake, the Westinghouse is also released. This is to ensure that the Westinghouse brake system will not creep on due to an air leak. Emergency position is beyond Step 7 and exhausts BP air pressure. The use of emergency will trip out the Regen and result in potentially skidded wheels. When you hear a tangarbage going clunk clunk, it will be the trailer cars which have skidded at some stage. When older sets are in Westinghouse the brake valve handle is sprung and you must hold it at the application. There are no notches as there are with EP. The Tangarbage brake valve when in Westinghouse will remain in the position selected. Knorr Bremse brake system is utilized on modern squirts, and I have no knowledge of that system. Current squirt drivers may be able to provide more specifics as to pressure settings. Steve.
G'day Oliver, If you intend to seek a job on the Sydney suburban system, after achieving a vacancy, you would probably go to the College of Knowledge (Petersham) for instruction. I have no idea how that works today in regard to requirements for acceptance. If you intend to seek a job on freight, then you need to attend initial instruction courses at your own expense. Rail Industry Safety Induction being the first and I believe that costs around $1,000.oo odd. Back in my day, it was all governmental and after achieving a vacancy you were instructed inhouse. I don't know if any training material is available on the www freebie. Steve.
@@aussiealco Cheers Mate, I want to drive Suburban and Intercity, porbably wont get trained on the old K Set, quite sad for me, Probably get trained on Waratahs and Meleniums, YUCK!
G'day Oliver, I had zapped a cyber corro to a retired cityrail amigo asking if he had any EP specifics. He replied and included some details, including that the Tangarbage does have 425 kpa BP as with the older sets. The Millennium onwards have 500 kpa BP. He also provided details of the older EP brake valves. Maximum BC pressure EP step 7 when load compensator is at empty, is 200 kpa. Maximum BC pressure EP step 7 when load compensator is loaded position, is 250 kpa. Though, he has stated that he has noticed a max BC pressure of 300 kpa when peak hour crush loading. I mentioned previously that the load compensator works the air bag suspension pressure, plus brake cylinder adjustment. And, you can hear the air bag suspension adjustment while the train is stationary and passengers are getting in and out. As mentioned previously, the K sets being heavier than an S set require heavier and or longer brake applications. An 8 car S set weighing in at around 317 tonne while an 8 car K set weighing in at around 352 tonne. The K sets are also slightly longer than 3 sets hence you needed to get them right up to the end of platforms. Even though the C sets are chopper gate control, you could notch them up as you would a K or S set in wet conditions. The Tangarbage only has the four distinct notches; starting series, full series, parallel and weakfields. The K and S sets being pilot motor driven cam shaft notching with resistance, you could manually notch up. Notch one starting series, also holding. Notch two full series, also step up. I forget the number of resistance banks, but 6 comes to mind. In wet weather to prevent wheel slip, release brakes while taking notch 1, then up to notch 2 briefly and return to 1. Repeating this removes each bank of resistance and increases train speed in series motor combination. You cannot step down as you can on an electric loco, but must shut off power to recommence if wheel slip is bad. There are no cooling fans on squirts with resistance as there are on locos. So, you cannot remain in notch 1 for any lengthy period or risk cooking the resistance banks. When you go from notch 1 up to notch 2 and remain there to let it step our itself you hear the pilot motors spinning the cam shafts in the roof above you. And you get the surge as the traction motors cop more oomph and increase rotation. Notch 3 or 4 is selected depending upon road speed permitted. Weakies gets you mobile but may not be necessary in all circumstances. On a Tangarbage when you go from notch 1 up to notch 2 and then back to 1 you loose all oomph. It returns to starting series. But, as there are no resistance banks involved you can leave the throttle in notch one and not burn anything out. You just don't go very fast. Some blokes go straight to four notch, but don't let any inspector catch you doing that. Pause as you go up the notches which also avoids wheel slip in wet conditions. If you haven't already, you could try the SETS mob to see if they have any squirt operational material available. And, the ARHS mob, though I think that they have relocated from Redfern.
G'day Penter, Yeh, them Tangarbages are getting long in the tooth now days. No doubt that things would not be as good as when introduced. A buddy regarded them as the best squirt on the system until he retired recently. He definitely didn't like the M or A sets. Steve.
Hey Steve. I've got a question about the meanings for the Acronyms on the circuit breakers. The ones I am specifying are: MML, HL, HLH, HLL and MEL. If you know what they stand for that would be great! Cheers, Oliver.
Howdy Oliver, Crikey, you are attempting to prompt me grey cells from 27 years ago. I have virtually nil memory of the specifics of squirt mini circuit breakers. Other than the EP isolation MCB, which when tripped or flicked off kills EP and regen, leaving only Westinghouse.. I also recollect a compressor sync MCB, which I did use one time when copping power faults from one compressor. I am guessing, but the HL, HLH, HLL might be to do with the headlight, though could be wrong. HL for main headlight, HLH, for high beam, and HLL for low beam, blow a lamp or fault and that MCB would trip. MML and MEL, I have no idea now what they woulda referred to. Unless isolated for a specific reason, all MCBs had to be in the ON possie. There would be a lot more electronic junk on squirts today requiring MCBs, ATP, CCTV etc etc. When I am next in cyber contact with me retired cityrailer amigo, I will ask him. But, I kinda got the impression from me amigo that today it is VERBOTEN to touch anything without permission. Gone are the days of fixing things on the fly. The only things that you got concerned about in my day were the trio of fault lamps, PFIL, AFIL and LVIL. Power, Auxiliary, Line Volts, would indicate when something was awry. The quick remedy being the THREE finger salute. Thumping the Pan UP, Lights On, and Reset buttons together to hopefully resolve the drama. Ah the good ole days.
Me smog hollow retired cityrailer has responded. I guessed correctly for the three headlight MCBs, the other pair being Motor Main Lights and Motor Emergency Lights. Trains must be lit up like Xmas trees these days. Old red rattlers and S setters only had marker lights.
G'day Trey, I am guessing that you are referring to the converging points from platforms 20 and 21 on approach to the City Inner and Goulburn Street. That set of points were purely for trailing movement and were shoved across when each train passed through them. They would remain in the position set by the previous train to trail through. They were not motorized. I am not sure just what happens at that set of points today. Trailing through points became verboten within shunting yards etc during the late 1990s. Steve.
G'day Trey, I have taken a squiz at NLA 100 which concerns Central to Goulburn Street etc. Those points are today shown as sprung (not motorized) and when wrong road movement is required, manual operation and point clips must be utilized. It would be a very rare situation were a wrong road movement would be necessary along the City Inner towards platforms 20 or 21. Normal running is trailing though those points. There is a longer version of this Tangara cab ride on my DVD titled Working Under Wire, which is available at Alcoworld, Ingleburn NSW. The DVD features other cab rides around the electrified network. Steve.
G'day Glen, I did not include Campbelltown due to not wanting to be seen wrangling a video camera by station staff. I forget now if the run commenced at Macarthur or Campbelltown. Steve.
I have not been employed on the railway for very many years, so don't know how much current day train drivers are paid. However, I do remember hearing when the average payment reached $100,000.oo per year which was a few years ago now. So, probably today just over that amount.
Whats better than watching a cab ride? Watching a cab ride and seeing the driver control the train! Nice horn action too! Thanks for the video!
It's amazing for me to see what Sydney was like back then! So cool! Look's very peaceful and much different to now...
Just a reminder that the tangara is still operating on the Sydney train network
@@oliveoil7941only on 1 line though 😢
I do love the sound of 'chopper' so distinctive.
We had one four car set in Victoria known as the 4D. Double Deck Development and Demonstration train. Coupled it to a 3 car Comeng. Nice to drive as I remember. Ran it into the ground and scrapped it. End of that trial !
Yes Richard I do remember that you lot had a Tangara for trial purposes. For the Sydney 2000 Olympics PANIC, management had even considered getting that four car set back, regardless of the gauge. Management had also considered hiring some Met drivers, until we pointed out that you lot use different signals down there. I spent a week in Transport House reviewing the proposed safeworking alterations for the Olympics. I heard a number of management proposals. Steve.
It could have been fixed and it would have been still around
Amazing video. I like watching drivers control trains"
Absolutely devastated me when the tangaras came out I used to love sitting up the front of the first red rattler carriage pull the window up and enjoy every second of the big diesel engine and the black diesel smoke would come in the window.
Bruh
No desiel!
Long time no see Steve, haven't seen any of your videos for ages, good to see you back.
Video up to your usual standard, excellent.
All these green areas we are passing, I wonder if they are built up with apartments now.
that cost $800 a week to rent
I left the squirts before the Tangara arrived. Good trip. thanks Steve
I remember going on an S set round city circle via Town Hall around July 2002 from Central to Town Hall and it was very loud at the time but now they've upgraded the tracks it's more quiet. Did any S set Comeng motor cars on sector 2 lines have headlights back in 2002?
G'day Harish, I am not sure bout the provision of headlights on S sets. But, I do recollect while I was belting around down there in smog hollow during 1993 that when running on the Richmond branch if the train had a headlight and that had failed, the train had to proceed at restricted speed over level crossings, BUT if the train did NOT have a headlight, it could travel at full road speed. Steve.
That's amazing nowadays with the S sets. After Waratah trains being introduced and the carriages got converted with some L and R set motor cars and trailer cars with headlights now, those cars with headlights can be behind another 4 car set and is never used for example S43 and S127 has a motor headlight and S135 and S124 has a trailer car headlight. S123 used to have one but as the trailer was converted it has been taken off with the blue guard light. On another note do you have any old videos of driving the train between North Sydney tunnel to Waverton? I like to see the brown rusty stanchions that I take an interesting part off.
G'day Harish, I am not sure just what video I possess of the smog hollow metrop. I have not bothered to view it for many moons. But, I don't think that I shot any cab video up the North Shore. As to S sets, again it has been a very long time since I was last involved with suburban trains, so things would have changed a lot since then, especially in regard to the provision of headlights, and "visibility lights" required today. Steve.
What trains do you drive now? Intercity or country?
I am retired now. My footplate career ended down in Tassie back in 2007. I still travel by train occasionally here in NSW.
Would love to do this for a living.
love this train how did it handle when driving it was the brakes hard to get it right to stop the train in the right spot at the station
Howdy David,
The standard brake system being used is the EP (electro-pneumatic) with blended regenerative on motor cars.
Regenerative brake system turns the traction motors into generators resulting in magnetic friction to slow wheel rotation.
There are seven steps of application and release of the brakes, making it fairly easy to adjust braking force.
Working any train in westinghouse air brake requires more attention, but still works well.
You may need to use the air brake when EP fails.
The main problem with the Tangara design is the Wheel Slide sensor.
This will activate when any wheel slip and or slide occurs and this reduces or fully releases the brakes.
This system was implemented to prevent skidded wheels due to being locked up.
So, when any rain occurs you could cop the wheel slide and potential braking dramas.
Some tangaras have run into things when the brakes were kicked off by the wheel slide sensor.
It is a long time since I was last in the cab of any smog hollow suburban train.
So, I don't know how the more modern sets perform.
When the train arrived into Museum, I thought the announcement said the train was going to Penrith instead of Central.
G'day Jeremy, that was a long time ago, but from memory there was track work which had altered some train running. Trains can proceed to Penrith from the City Inner track via Central. Steve.
Hey Steve. Sorry for late response.
Oh ok. I actually did notice that a few weeks ago when I was in Sydney (I live in Perth but I used to live in Sydney until 2012) that a service I was on was a Penrith to Museum via Town Hall, which I had found out via TripView.This was due to trackwork along the North Shore Line.
A bit quieter than those diesels. Do you still drive Steve ?
G'day Ian, no my footplate career ended down in Tassie in mid 2007. It does please me that the Tassie railway is now back under government control. Steve.
Hi Aussie, cool video - Bought back good memories for me driving the T/G Sets also! Not so fun in the rain but yer...:)
I wanted to ask at 2m 50 secs in the video you apply the brake but it sounds more like the Auto brake rather than the EP brake, is this correct?
If this is correct, was it normal to use the Auto brake in normal service back in the 90's? My driver trainer made me drive an 8 car T set down the shore using Auto brakes only - was a slower trip than normal lol :). But I did get an appreciation of the skill behind mastering the Auto brake compared to the rather easy to use EP brake.
G'day Scoot, Yes, I was using the westinghouse brake instead of EP briefly. Four car sets were much easier to stop when using westinghouse and kept you awake. Most ETR blokes were required to work a train in westinghouse on their trial trip. Likewise with me down the shore. The day that I relieved an 8 car S set where the EP had failed proved amusing. I belted the thing out to Snake Gully ok. It had been late into town, but I recovered the time. You had to come in hard to overcome the load compensator action when in westinghouse. I phoned the quipies telling them that the thing was not good brake wise. They refused to fail it as I had recovered the time. So, I bludged all the way back to town and they met me stating the the thing must be no good due to the time that I lost. HA! I got the thing failed. Steve.
Hi Aussie, Cheers for the reply - I can understand it would be much easier to stop using the Westinghouse in a 4 car set but still you look so chilled out when using it. I wish I got to operate more 4 car sets but by the time I went from guard to driver they had stopped amalgamating/dividing and all sets were 8 Car sets.
Not sure where you mean "snake creek" but Its funny and not surprising they didn't want to fail the set so you took matters into your own hands lol!
What do you think of these new trains now? Like the A-Set? My personal opinion is they are very boring to drive and don't keep you on your toes/interested as much as the older S/C/K sets etc.
G'day Scoot,
Snake Gully is what the old hands referred to for East Hills. I ain't been up the front of a suburban squirt for over two decades. So, I don't know how they perform. During the brief time that I was down in smog hollow, I liked the Chopper sets. You could hurl them around in Westinghouse plus notch them up manually during wet weather. Worst thing about a Tangarbage, all or nothing in Series. And the stupid wheel slide sensor during wet conditions. The W sets were also fun to drive. Them K sets are just too heavy for the S set traction gear and take all day to get mobile. Roared around with 12 cars one nite for some fun. Blew up the overhead down near Casula. Told the ASM who met me at Liverpool that it musta been the freighter in front of me. He accepted that excuse to tell Electrouble, obviously not seeing the diesels on that freighter. HA! Yes, the ETR would be vastly different today to how it was. Sadly, the fun also evaporated out of the freight side.
Steve.
Hey Steve, Okay got it - I will now be calling East Hills "Snake Gully" lol. Fair enough, I can tell you there isn't much "character" in them anymore. They even look like Chinese plastic. One Master controller for accelerating and braking and a couple of computer screens. Don't get me wrong I understand the benefits of technology but for a driver I feel they just get more boring. Performance is somewhat better but meh. Me too - I thought the C-Sets were awesome, although I didn't get to experience them a lot as they were operating on a different sector. And you are right the notching up manually during wet weather was fun and a good challenge especially in peak times with high passenger loads. It took me a while to learn how to do it correctly so it was a good thing my driver trainer was patient. Yes haha with the tangaras I would pretty much go straight into Series unless shunting or restricted conditions etc. The wheel slide light was very annoying - would light up like a disco while the motor amp dial would raise and fall rapidly. Although they are not my favorite train I just really liked the view you would get from the drivers desk - Very open and a nice wide view in front of you. Hahaha I love your story - "It was the freighter in front of me" - very funny! Why 12 cars? Was it an empty service or being transferred to another depot? Also could you tell me which side of things you enjoyed more overall? Freight or ETR?
G'day Scoot, The 12 cars would have been an empty transfer run, 8 car K set plus 4 car S set from memory, going to Flemmo. Do them Tangarbages still whistle ? Draught coming in the cab front door. Freight was probably more entertaining. But, also more frustrating at times. I always liked Alcos, not EMDs. So, when we lost most of the Alcos, I got fed up with sitting on EMDs. The Tassie English Electrics were ok, after I got used to their idiosyncrasies. The 46 class butter boxes were a buzz to drive, but had become VERY painful cab condition wise. The 86ers were great fun to drive, notch 2 for holding when manually notching up in Series (notch one holding on a squirt), but they were over the load with the 3300 tonner coalies and the frames all cracked. Work is work, great some days and woeful other days. Steve.
What is the difference between Auto Westinghouse and electro pneumatic brakes. Does the reach lever need to do a special sequence or is the Westinghouse brake just stronger than ep?
G'day Oliver,
Electro Pneumatic brake system involves three wires of a cable connecting the car magnet valves.
The Westcode 7 step EP system provides 7 steps of graduated application and release of the brakes.
Via energizing various combinations of those three wires, according to the position of the drivers brake valve.
Main Reservoir air pressure is fed via the magnet valves to the relay valve to the brake cylinders.
This is much faster to activate than traditional Westinghouse automatic brake system.
The traditional Westinghouse system involves a reduction in Brake Pipe pressure according to brake valve position.
That activating the car triple valves or control valves to allow auxiliary reservoir air pressure to enter the brake cylinders.
Traditional Westinghouse provides for graduated brake application but ONLY Full Release, not graduated release.
Some "experimental drivers" would do a Westinghouse Jiffy to get a partial release.
But, that was Illegal, so I won't go there.
The Tangarbage Westinghouse system does permit graduated release but only three or four zones from memory.
Older suburban emu trains ran with a Brake Pipe pressure of 425 kpa.
But, more modern squirts may have 500 kpa BP which is the equivalent of freight trains which run at 500 kpa BP.
The Tangarbage also provides Regenerative Brake on motor cars blended with EP.
Regen turns the traction motors into generators which helps to retard the wheel rotation.
Regen functions on the motor cars until train speed is reduced to around 5 kph and then only EP functions.
Regen provides the bulk of train speed reduction assisted by EP on the trailers.
Switch off the EP, or it fails, and you loose the regen brake, and only have Westinghouse.
The tangarbage also has disc brakes unlike previous squirts which had clasp brake block rigging.
As to individual EP brake step pressures versus Westinghouse, it was a LONG time ago and my memory fades.
I do recollect a maximum brake cylinder pressure of 230 kpa.
But, I don't recollect if that was EP step 7, OR Westinghouse Full Service / Emergency.
Running a squirt on Westinghouse, depending upon gradient, you may need to apply the brakes earlier.
Running on EP, you can apply later, making a heavier application, and gradually release as you slow down.
On a locomotive, Minimum Reduction of 50 kpa would result in a brake cylinder pressure of around 75 kpa.
Full Service reduction of 175 kpa would result in a brake cylinder pressure of around 325 kpa.
Though, locos with single brake blocks per wheel would have a slightly higher BC pressure at full service.
A locomotive is much heavier compared to a squirt car, therefore requiring greater BC pressure to stop.
EP step 1 would probably equate to around 35 kpa BC pressure.
The K sets possessing air con are heavier than S sets, but both only having EP, or Westinghouse.
The K set would require a heavier EP application to stop compared to an S set.
The EP and Westinghouse brake systems are individual in operation, but overlapped.
When the driver initially applies the EP brake, this also makes a Westinghouse minimum reduction.
And, when the driver finally releases the EP brake, the Westinghouse is also released.
This is to ensure that the Westinghouse brake system will not creep on due to an air leak.
Emergency position is beyond Step 7 and exhausts BP air pressure.
The use of emergency will trip out the Regen and result in potentially skidded wheels.
When you hear a tangarbage going clunk clunk, it will be the trailer cars which have skidded at some stage.
When older sets are in Westinghouse the brake valve handle is sprung and you must hold it at the application.
There are no notches as there are with EP.
The Tangarbage brake valve when in Westinghouse will remain in the position selected.
Knorr Bremse brake system is utilized on modern squirts, and I have no knowledge of that system.
Current squirt drivers may be able to provide more specifics as to pressure settings.
Steve.
@@aussiealco Thanks alot Mate! Planing on becoming a driver so trying to inform myself on the basics, cheers!
G'day Oliver, If you intend to seek a job on the Sydney suburban system, after achieving a vacancy, you would probably go to the College of Knowledge (Petersham) for instruction. I have no idea how that works today in regard to requirements for acceptance. If you intend to seek a job on freight, then you need to attend initial instruction courses at your own expense. Rail Industry Safety Induction being the first and I believe that costs around $1,000.oo odd. Back in my day, it was all governmental and after achieving a vacancy you were instructed inhouse. I don't know if any training material is available on the www freebie. Steve.
@@aussiealco Cheers Mate, I want to drive Suburban and Intercity, porbably wont get trained on the old K Set, quite sad for me, Probably get trained on Waratahs and Meleniums, YUCK!
G'day Oliver, I had zapped a cyber corro to a retired cityrail amigo asking if he had any EP specifics.
He replied and included some details, including that the Tangarbage does have 425 kpa BP as with the older sets.
The Millennium onwards have 500 kpa BP. He also provided details of the older EP brake valves.
Maximum BC pressure EP step 7 when load compensator is at empty, is 200 kpa.
Maximum BC pressure EP step 7 when load compensator is loaded position, is 250 kpa.
Though, he has stated that he has noticed a max BC pressure of 300 kpa when peak hour crush loading.
I mentioned previously that the load compensator works the air bag suspension pressure, plus brake cylinder adjustment.
And, you can hear the air bag suspension adjustment while the train is stationary and passengers are getting in and out.
As mentioned previously, the K sets being heavier than an S set require heavier and or longer brake applications.
An 8 car S set weighing in at around 317 tonne while an 8 car K set weighing in at around 352 tonne.
The K sets are also slightly longer than 3 sets hence you needed to get them right up to the end of platforms.
Even though the C sets are chopper gate control, you could notch them up as you would a K or S set in wet conditions.
The Tangarbage only has the four distinct notches; starting series, full series, parallel and weakfields.
The K and S sets being pilot motor driven cam shaft notching with resistance, you could manually notch up.
Notch one starting series, also holding.
Notch two full series, also step up.
I forget the number of resistance banks, but 6 comes to mind.
In wet weather to prevent wheel slip, release brakes while taking notch 1, then up to notch 2 briefly and return to 1.
Repeating this removes each bank of resistance and increases train speed in series motor combination.
You cannot step down as you can on an electric loco, but must shut off power to recommence if wheel slip is bad.
There are no cooling fans on squirts with resistance as there are on locos.
So, you cannot remain in notch 1 for any lengthy period or risk cooking the resistance banks.
When you go from notch 1 up to notch 2 and remain there to let it step our itself you hear the pilot motors spinning the cam shafts in the roof above you.
And you get the surge as the traction motors cop more oomph and increase rotation.
Notch 3 or 4 is selected depending upon road speed permitted.
Weakies gets you mobile but may not be necessary in all circumstances.
On a Tangarbage when you go from notch 1 up to notch 2 and then back to 1 you loose all oomph.
It returns to starting series.
But, as there are no resistance banks involved you can leave the throttle in notch one and not burn anything out.
You just don't go very fast.
Some blokes go straight to four notch, but don't let any inspector catch you doing that.
Pause as you go up the notches which also avoids wheel slip in wet conditions.
If you haven't already, you could try the SETS mob to see if they have any squirt operational material available.
And, the ARHS mob, though I think that they have relocated from Redfern.
When the auto brake worked correctly lol... now they are sporadic as hell and either apply too hard or not at all
G'day Penter,
Yeh, them Tangarbages are getting long in the tooth now days.
No doubt that things would not be as good as when introduced.
A buddy regarded them as the best squirt on the system until he retired recently.
He definitely didn't like the M or A sets.
Steve.
Hey Steve.
I've got a question about the meanings for the Acronyms on the circuit breakers. The ones I am specifying are: MML, HL, HLH, HLL and MEL. If you know what they stand for that would be great! Cheers, Oliver.
Howdy Oliver,
Crikey, you are attempting to prompt me grey cells from 27 years ago.
I have virtually nil memory of the specifics of squirt mini circuit breakers.
Other than the EP isolation MCB, which when tripped or flicked off kills EP and regen, leaving only Westinghouse..
I also recollect a compressor sync MCB, which I did use one time when copping power faults from one compressor.
I am guessing, but the HL, HLH, HLL might be to do with the headlight, though could be wrong.
HL for main headlight, HLH, for high beam, and HLL for low beam, blow a lamp or fault and that MCB would trip.
MML and MEL, I have no idea now what they woulda referred to.
Unless isolated for a specific reason, all MCBs had to be in the ON possie.
There would be a lot more electronic junk on squirts today requiring MCBs, ATP, CCTV etc etc.
When I am next in cyber contact with me retired cityrailer amigo, I will ask him.
But, I kinda got the impression from me amigo that today it is VERBOTEN to touch anything without permission.
Gone are the days of fixing things on the fly.
The only things that you got concerned about in my day were the trio of fault lamps, PFIL, AFIL and LVIL.
Power, Auxiliary, Line Volts, would indicate when something was awry.
The quick remedy being the THREE finger salute.
Thumping the Pan UP, Lights On, and Reset buttons together to hopefully resolve the drama.
Ah the good ole days.
@@aussiealco Cherrs Steve, Ill stuck to the EP side of things! 😝
Me smog hollow retired cityrailer has responded. I guessed correctly for the three headlight MCBs, the other pair being Motor Main Lights and Motor Emergency Lights. Trains must be lit up like Xmas trees these days. Old red rattlers and S setters only had marker lights.
@@aussiealco Tanks!
11:31
What happened at that cross over?
G'day Trey,
I am guessing that you are referring to the converging points from platforms 20 and 21 on approach to the City Inner and Goulburn Street. That set of points were purely for trailing movement and were shoved across when each train passed through them. They would remain in the position set by the previous train to trail through. They were not motorized. I am not sure just what happens at that set of points today. Trailing through points became verboten within shunting yards etc during the late 1990s.
Steve.
@@aussiealco oh okay... Well, thanks for the info! Very interesting... 👍🤗
G'day Trey,
I have taken a squiz at NLA 100 which concerns Central to Goulburn Street etc.
Those points are today shown as sprung (not motorized) and when wrong road movement is required, manual operation and point clips must be utilized. It would be a very rare situation were a wrong road movement would be necessary along the City Inner towards platforms 20 or 21.
Normal running is trailing though those points.
There is a longer version of this Tangara cab ride on my DVD titled Working Under Wire, which is available at Alcoworld, Ingleburn NSW.
The DVD features other cab rides around the electrified network.
Steve.
@@aussiealco cool! I might also check out the DVD when I have the chance to...
why couldn't we see campbelltown station
G'day Glen, I did not include Campbelltown due to not wanting to be seen wrangling a video camera by station staff. I forget now if the run commenced at Macarthur or Campbelltown. Steve.
Was it 4 or 8 cars.
G'day Anthony, this was a four car tangarbage set, being a week-end.
Steve.
@@aussiealco wow... Never seen anyone call a Tangara "Tangarbage" before... Lol. It fits.
Trey Pohe I remember someone on Twitter who called them that every time a delay happened on the T4 line. Cause you know... it’s Tangara territory.
woh computa and analogz stuff????? vewy kewl
How much money do you get pay to be a train driver in Sydney
I have not been employed on the railway for very many years, so don't know how much current day train drivers are paid. However, I do remember hearing when the average payment reached $100,000.oo per year which was a few years ago now. So, probably today just over that amount.
7:23 whoa!!! Is that Sydenham??
G'day Sonic, this footage was shot back in 1994, so most locations seen would have changed over the years.