Edit: huge disclaimer, ignore the part where I said the item description was removed, turns out it was a hoax I couldn’t verify due to having already used the item, I am very sorry. Good point is it can still be used to further the points in this video! MELINA IS MESSMERS TWIN IS FURTHER REINFORCED! I’m very sorry for the misunderstanding! Edit edit…: I messed up big time I said Melina was soulless when I meant bodiless… cmon gecko Hello everyone! Hope you're all having a great day! I felt like I needed to say, I don't dislike the Godwyn cocoon theory but I don't personally believe it, that does not mean it's bad though! Take a shot every time I say in my opinion... actually please don't Would also like to say, Messmer says he hates his flame, yet we never find out why... Maybe this is why? Music is a mixture of :elden ring shadow of the erdtree music, hollow knight music and music from the man the myth the legend @Alexroe ! Don't you dare go hollow friends!!! The discord for the channel: discord.gg/xv8t5bFSzd
They are %100 twin siblings, the butterfly theory is on-point... and I don't know any Elden-Loreist who (so far) disputes this. What's crazy is Melina says she was 'born' at the foot of the Erdtree and her mother is 'inside' the Erdtree. So this would suggest that Messmer was also born at the foot of the Erdtree. I think it was the infant Erdtree they were born at the 'foot' of, because Marika became a 'god' in the land of shadow (or Scadu lol ). So the Neuman must be able the Asexually reproduce by being Radagon and Marika both in the same body and when they planted the Erdtree they also reproduced for the first time. One child, Messmer was plagued by a dark serpent so he will do the killing and the other, Melina... would be the one who governs death and becomes the Gloam-Eyed Queen. Who would become too powerful and had to be defeated by Maliketh so he could seal away the Rune of Death.... I get too into this theory crafting stuff, but I love it. 🍻 Cheers mate ! !
Maybe the born at the foot of the Erdtree is less literal? Maybe her new life “Melina” was born here? What you’re talking about to do with the numen asexually reproducing is giving heavy Athena mind baby vibes lmao! Thanks so much too!
@@theemeraldgecko310 there's so much we don't know concerning Melina's early life as the Gloam-eyed Queen and her eventual defeat at the hands of maliketh. Who is Markia's "Shadow" which seals away the rune of death.
The Gloam-eyed Queen is the most enigmatic figure in all of Elden Ring to me. I hope if there's ever a continuation, another game, movie, anime, whatever... that they explore this further.
I really doubt the gloam eyed queen is Melina. For one, it wouldn’t make much sense for Marika’s daughter to be the gloam eyed queen, it’s heavily implied that the Godskins were a faction of people pre dating Marika’s ascension that controlled death who Marika has to defeat very early on to establish the golden order. So Melina would of had to of been born, grown up, somehow controlled the death rune, and then establish the godskin apostles and all of their traditions/culture, all before Marika established the golden order and sealed away death. Based on how Melina’s spirit looks, she probably wasn’t even that old when she died. Secondly, Melina says she was born at the foot of the erd tree where her mother gave her purpose. She kind of talks about this like she’s grateful for this, but found her own purpose in life. If she was the gloam eyed queen, I’d expect her to just hate Marika and want revenge or something, but Melina just seems pretty neutral toward Marika. Lastly, It’s heavily implied that her “purpose” has to do with being used as the kindling maiden, not anything to do with death or black flames. Melina also never uses any black flame incantations or shows any connection to the godskins. So her role of Marika’s daughter and kindling maiden kind of seems to clash with the gloam eyed queen role in a way that makes me feel they definitely aren’t the same person.
@@donovan4222 The line about being born at the foot of the tree when her mother gave her purpose isn't necessarily literal. It can be figurative, as in 'When she killed me, I got a new, bodiless life, and a new purpose...to destroy all she's built.'
@@danpitzer765 Yeah I totally agree, but I would expect her character to have a lot more resentment toward Marika if she was the gloam eyed queen. I think the only connection Melina has to destined death is that her soul is destined to die to burn the erd tree.
It would make sence in the why Messmer was left sealed in the land of shadow. Marika has a death phobia, and she did the same with the flame of ruin. If she saw that her childs has flames that could kill, she would absolutely seal them too.
Would be interesting to see if Messmer’s flame also kills gods, or maybe it’s directly opposite like other twins where in it aids gods? I’m not sure! Definitely agree with you’re point though!
i think she did the same with Melina, as the Gloam-Eyed Queen she grew too powerful and Destined Death had to be sealed away... vis-à-vis Maliketh, her 'Shadow'.
@@SuperMaster000X someone on Kosmos’ stream posited that Messmer’s flame actually only exists, they way it does now, due to Marika sealing the Rune of Death, and subsequently posited that THIS results in the Shadowy nature of his Red Flames. They said that this is also the reason why there is SO MUCH undeath in the Land of Shadow (I.e - spirit graves, the shadow fodder enemies of the Land of Shadow, etc.). Messmer’s Flame, influenced by the sealing of Death, is the reason why there is perpetual and unwavering death in the Land of Shadow. It’s literally Hell. No one can truly die. They burn in the Flames of Messmer, but still are forced to remain alive with the Flame’s shadow. Forcing them to live a perpetual life of death
@@lBorosDavidl The fact that she’s so central to the story but also mysterious is part of the appeal. The most info we get is from Melina’s own dialogue and the blade of calling description.
Is not criminal its part of life, its not marvel, you wont get to know everything, some shit never gets revelead ever or until a new game. People went years without knowing who was Gwyn lost son, we still dont know who lady tomoe from Sekiro is, and many other things, thats part of fantasy world building lol
I hope y’all know this is the not the last of Elden Ring Lol😂😂 if Dark souls got 3 titles and was less popular than Elden ring in sales , then you can bet your sweet silly ass that they will at LEAST give us one last Title with a DLC or just one last title but I’m general I don’t believe this is the actual end of Elden ring since we haven’t got Gloamed Eye Queen Content and much more
Also another thing to prove the cocoon of the empyrean is Miquella, the ring on the hand is the same ring as the ring on his hand in the flashback memory cutscene at the end.
Was it you’re comment who said that before? I did have it in the video, but I cut it out because I thought you meant in the boss fight and for the life of my couldn’t see it! Thank you for clarifying where it was, I know I said this before but this was an amazing catch!
@@theemeraldgecko310 I might have but I wouldnt remember. It might have been someone else though, but I know I noticed it when BonfireVN made a video showing the model of Young Miquella and comparing it with his other models
@@bombthing idk why people would think it’s Godwyn when it’s stated his body was buried at the roots of the erdtree and you can visit it at Deeproot depths
@@draw2death421 No, none of Miquella's models are connected to Morgott, though the withered arm is similar to Morgott's corpse arm, it dorsnt have the same accessories
“My purpose was given to me by my mother,inside the Erdtree,long ago. I won’t let anyone speak ill of that,not even you” she LITERALLY tells you she’s one of Marikas kids in the base game if you’re doing the Frenzy path. Why does no one talk about this?
I personally thought it was a misdirect, and that we would find out that she was Marika's sister, and she is referring to their shared mother. But that theory seems definitively dead now!
I still think Melina is the grace from Rannis soul. Ranni is still in a technical way Merikas kid. She was born in death and not really alive. Ranni wanted to remove the part of her that was bound by grace. Killing her body wouldn't have killed the grace in the soul. If bringing back death was the task rannis finger gave her, then she would have the task of the gloam eyed queen. The fingers gave the gloam eyed queen that greater purpose, there's no reason it couldn't be the objective of another.
Crackpot add-on: What if Messmer’s Serpent manifested unexpectedly in some way that harmed Melina, leading to the chain of events we follow in the game like sealing him with Grace and shipping him off to do war?
That theory about an accidental outburst from Messmer holds a lot of dramatic weight, even if there’s so little actual evidence for it. His brooding, melancholic nature would have far deeper roots than just the bloodshed he inflicted on the Hornsent. And about the hair - nobody ever mentions that Miquella has straight-up luscious blonde locks just like his mother. Messmer and Malenia inherited his red hair, but Miquella got his mother’s. So I think Melina’s off-pink can fit in that grouping too
He’s honestly such a tragic character and as time goes by he just gets more and more tragic! That’s actually a good point!! I hadn’t thought of it like that!
Imma drop this here Its from the Ingame description of Messmers Orb and I am pretty sure there has to be a reason why its there since the fight against him doesn’t necessarily show this behavior Messmer despised his own fire. Time and time again he hoped to rid himself of it, but ever did it burn.
In his Orb description it states "he hated his fire" and wanted to get rid of it. so there is certainly something there that has made him hate a part of himself. This could very well be what happened!
Young Miquella in the final cutscene of the DLC is wearing the same ring thats on the hand thats coming out of the cocoon. The person inside the cocoon was Miquella. Pretty much confirmed.
I know right! I was so exited about it, then I was doing some brushing up on the exact words in the description and found out it got removed in the last patch!
@@theemeraldgecko310 Hey, I just wanted to point out to you that the item description for Messmer's Kindling was not removed from the game. There was a hoax post going around that got a lot of traction, and since people are completing the DLC and have burnt the Kindling Tree, they can't confirm it since they don't have the item anymore. Just want to make sure you know it's still there
Hmmmmm if this is so then 2 conclusions Mesmer was given iris of grace to keep something dark at bay Then Malina was given the other to block her from receiving grace? For what reason should she be shunned from receiving grace? Hmmm
@@FadedClutch it deleted my reply... Literally this and people just can't let go of the gloam eyed queen theory. She's gone Marikas offed her Melina isn't her lol
I wonder if burning the erdtree would be similar to the sin of all sins, almost like biting the apple of eden, and considering messmer covers the serpent symbolism, I wonder if melina represents the apple, "born at the foot of the erdtree" which is when her journey began to seek a champion to help guide her to burn it, as if she is the most important catalyst to this event.
It's because of people's expectations with Godwyn and the Gloam-eyed Queen. I had no expectations because I knew everything couldn't be answered with one DLC. I am happy with all the lore we got in SOTE.
@@MikaMikaWhateverThere was a little bit of Godwyn lore in some of the catacombs, but I can see why that would be disappointing. I think a big part of Godwyn's role in this story is that everyone wants the Golden Boy to be relevant, an inspiration. But he's just not. That's a common theme in GRRM's stories, I feel this character comes in large part from him.
Also think about this. The GEQ’s sword is located at the bottom of Radahn’s divine tower being guarded by a Godskin Apostle. Radahn and Messmer were also close friends.
@@theemeraldgecko310 "Sacred sword of the Gloam-Eyed Queen who controlled the Godskin Apostles before her defeat at the hands of Maliketh." I'm curious why you'd would think Maliketh is capable of defeating anything without killing it. I may missed something
I like where you're going with this. Staying with the concept of duality, i think Melina had the ability to freely change from herself to the Gloam-Eyed Queen. I think she - as the Gloam-Eyed Queen - was imprisoned in that secret chamber where we find the Blade of Calling. In that item's description, it says that the bearer will eventually meet Destined Death, the power the Gloam-Eyed Queen possesses. It is possible that Messmer attempted to free his sister, purposefully burning her body in an attempt to free her soul. But Merika stopped the plot, banished Messmer to the Shadow Lands, and rebirthed Melina's soul in the Erdtree, but didn't restore her memories. Melina herself says that her mother spoke to and raised her from within tbe Erdtree, but she doesnt remember much of anything else. That could be a spicy twist. Also explains more of Messmer's hate towards Merika...
Didn’t melina also state she was born at the base of the erd tree. Its possibly she was rebirth by marika after she killed gloam eyed queen. It would potentially explain messmer curse and melina strong desire to burn the tree
The Beast Eye given by gurranq is the same shade of purple as melinas, and the claw marks on melinas eye could be representative of Maliketh taking her one of her Gloam Eyes. I think afterward, maliketh uses the Red and black flames to burn her body away, but not her soul, as only frenzied and ghost flame sre described as burning souls away. This fight could have happened at the foot of the Erdtree, where we see scorch marks, possibly from her black flame. There, her spirit form is given new purpose.
Imho, Melina is the GEQ and she got all the way to the foot of the Erdtree before being stopped by Maliketh. Perhaps both her and Messmer where afflicted with a serpentine curse (see the theories about Eiglay being Marika's first consort). Marika thought that if Melina could do this then Messmer could do it too, so Messmer got exiled so he would be allowed to live. Then, Melina had her memory erased and she was not given back her body since the curse lived inside her flesh. This was Marika's way of saving both her children. Yet, since Melina had become infamous as the GEQ, she had to start a new life. The only thing she was allowed to know is that Marika was her mother, so at least she would know she was loved by her. Melina's arc in the game is actually an ironic redemption arc. She does finally burn the tree down, but she does so not out of rebellion against Marika, but out of love for her so our player can free her.
@@assasinsbear I really doubt the gloam eyed queen is Melina. For one, it wouldn’t make much sense for Marika’s daughter to be the gloam eyed queen, it’s heavily implied that the Godskins were a faction of people pre dating Marika’s ascension that controlled death who Marika has to defeat very early on to establish the golden order. So Melina would of had to of been born, grown up, somehow controlled the death rune, and then establish the godskin apostles and all of their traditions/culture, all before Marika established the golden order and sealed away death. Based on how Melina’s spirit looks, she probably wasn’t even that old when she died. Secondly, Melina says she was born at the foot of the erd tree where her mother gave her purpose. She kind of talks about this like she’s grateful for this, but found her own purpose in life. If she was the gloam eyed queen, I’d expect her to just hate Marika and want revenge or something, but Melina just seems pretty neutral toward Marika. Lastly, It’s heavily implied that her “purpose” has to do with being used as the kindling maiden, not anything to do with death or black flames. Melina also never uses any black flame incantations or shows any connection to the godskins. So her role of Marika’s daughter and kindling maiden kind of seems to clash with the gloam eyed queen role in a way that makes me feel they definitely aren’t the same person. I think Melina is a parallel to Mesmer, while Mesmer dedicates his life to Marika’s purpose and uses his flame to burn the erdtree’s enemies, Melina finds her own purpose and uses her flame to burn the erdtree itself.
@@donovan4222 @donovan4222 I have been resistant to the theory that the GEQ is Melina for a while before recently starting to believe in it. For me it was also an issue that she didn't use blackflame and the fact she uses the minor erdtree incantation made me wonder if she wasn't some kind of Marika clone (similar to Milicent). Personally, what made me believe she might actually be the GEQ was replaying the game. I noticed that the two first times we get introduced to her, she is seen with the hood over her head and only her mouth showing, while a circular brooch is pinning her cloak. This design matches the appearance of the Godskins very closely. This kind of detail must be intentional knowing the level of artistic intent found in the game. So either it's misdirection or Melina must have some connection to the GEQ. Then, when you consider she is most likely Messmer's sister, it follows she would be born with a body. Marika can revive people, she revives the player over and over. You could say, well, maybe she needs to be a spirit to help the player, so she can't have a body. But to me it feels cold of Marika not to give her daughter her body back even if there is a greater purpose.
@@assasinsbear That’s really interesting I never noticed the thing with her hour and outfit! I can see why so many fans theorize her as the GEQ, she does have some connections to destined death with her dialogue in the frenzied flame ending, and the blade of calling description (Melina’s dagger which looks suspiciously like the black knives that killed Godwyn). That is definitely the strongest evidence for her being connected to the GEQ. My personal theory that I think is most likely is that the Hornsent Grandam is the gloam eyed queen. First, she’s an empyrean who predates Marika, so she fits with the timeline better I believe. If you look at her outfit, it’s also a bit similar with her eyes covered by both her hood and her horns, and a sort of old tattered cloak that she wears. Second, she constantly talks about Marika’s betrayal and calls her a “strumpet” (prostitute) almost like she is bitter toward her, and they have some kind of history beyond just what happened to the Hornsent. Thats the type of attitude I would expect the GEQ to have toward Marika, as opposed to Melina who is more neutral toward Marika. Third, we know the Hornsent had the opposite views about death to the golden order. They embraced death as part of a natural cycle of life and rebirth. So if would make sense for her to be a rival to Marika for godhood that wielded the power of death who Marika had to defeat to establish her golden order. The only thing holding me back on this theory is I can’t find any connection between grandam and the godskins. But it checks a lot of boxes and makes a lot of sense to me.
@@donovan4222 it is a pretty good theory too. It would also make sense why all these Godskin weapons and the Godslaying Greatsword share a spiral pattern like we see in Hornsent buildings and incantations.
@@assasinsbear Great point, that also implies to me that the Godskins pre date Marika and were probably in charge of handling the death rune for a long time before she sealed it away.
You telling me to not subscribe unless I liked the content made me instantly subscribe without watching a thing yet. Nice to have you be reasonable about it and not acting entitled to support.. after finishing the video you did great and I will enjoy more of it. Work well done!
Thank you so much! I always find it a little silly people doing it fully at the beginning when the people haven’t even watched the video yet! Thanks again means a lot!
I sometimes disagree with your conclusions, but I found myself enjoying many of your videos. They're well edited, the informations are perfectly summarized and clearly presented. Subscribed! Keep up the good work man
I think that’s honestly the best way to go about watching these videos, disagreeing with something and then discussing the alternatives opens up so many further avenues!! Thanks so much it truly means the world to me!!
I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else, but I just noticed - doesn't Messmer's eye look like an Iris of Grace item that you pick up later in the DLC? And Melina's secret ending eye, it also looks similar to the Eye of Occult, does it not? I wonder...
Definitely see where you’re coming from! Maybe it’s an altered iris of gold? Made by Marika herself? Messmers eye holds or of similarity’s with Marika’s runes from the dlc!
theres a huge misconception that the description of the kindling had been changed i have the item currently after the most recent it patch the description is still the same
A few days ago while replaying the base game I saw the cutscene where Melina's other eye opens. Her hair not only turns Black, but it also has white stripes. I didn't notice that before, even tho I've played the game so many times.
Yeah, plus there's the fact in the Lord of Frenzied Flame ending, the all the color in Melina's right eye, which has a sort of golden color to it prior to the Frenzied ending, has since faded into an off-white afterwards, almost like she's become blind or at least near-blind in her right eye or something. Or maybe that is the Grace of Gold having left her entirely. I wonder...
Melina also participated in the Night of Black Knives as a demigod killer. Probably soon afterward, using the skins of the dead demigods collected during the Night to empower her godskin apostle army, she began her rebellion as the Gloam-eyed Queen but was soundly defeated by Maliketh in the end. Likely her burning came after the defeat.
@@rclaws3230 That doesn’t make sense with the timeline though, the night of black knives happened AFTER death was sealed away by Marika and the GEQ was defeated by Maliketh. We know this because Godwyn was the first demigod to die and Ranni had to steal a piece of death from Maliketh to forge the black knives.
@@donovan4222 You might be right, I may be forgetting where the GEQ rebellion sits on the timeline. Do you know off-hand what lore bit places the GEQ chronologically? But Melina did participate in the NOBK, that's pretty clear.
@@rclaws3230 The gloam eyed queen was the leader of the godskins and wielded the destined death rune part of the Elden ring. Marika’s main goal was to create a world without death, so she commanded Maliketh to defeat the gloam eyed queen, and had him in charge of guarding destined death in Farum Azula, a place outside of time, so death wouldn’t exist in the lands between. Since Marika had to do this to establish the golden order, and it’s implied death hadn’t existed for a long time…it had to of happened pretty early in the timeline in my opinion. Like one of the first things she did after becoming a god.
There is still somethings unexplained. A few things: 1. Why do Ranni and Melina share the same eye tatoo and knowledge of Torrent? 2. If Melina IS the GEQ(as opposed to just connected to the GEQ), why is it that never at any point in the game does she ever warn us about the Godskins the same way she has the Frenzied Flame? We all know the GEQ is like a mother to them. 3. If Destined Death was a threat to Marika’s order, why didnt or couldnt Marika lock Melina in the realm of Shadow like she did her brother Mesmer? Why is she still trotting about in the Lands Between?
the first thing im not really sure but my theory is that she would become the next gloam eyed queen and imitate melina under marikas likings like ranni thought so the rune of death was stolen from melina and ranni never received anything and was betrayed
@theemeraldgecko310 Marika never feared Messmer, she hid him away to protect him. Both loved each other, but now is Marika captured inside the erdtree, so everyone in the shadowlands are thinking that they were abandoned by her. Messmers last words, are words of desparation, he feels betrayed, maybe because he sees a faint glimmer of grace in us, so basicaly Marikas guidance. After long time not hearing anything from his mother and then seeing a graceless tarnished under her guidance must be like betrayal.
From his remembrance : A malevolent snake writhed within Messmer, and so his very mother plucked out his eye and put in its place a seal of grace. Yet, having done so, her fear compelled her to secret away her child within the realm of shadow. Hidden away-keeping company with the original sin, and a hatred that would not be confined.
@@KindredSunlight "malevolent snake writhed within" - not so great for messmer or his body, possession by evil "plucked out his eye and put in its place a seal of grace" - a drastic measure to seal away the malevolent snake "secret away her child" - not discarded or banned, but secret away and her "child" - direct reference to motherhood, stereotypical = love, care, protection "keeping company" - not his hatred, hatred of the hornsent people. 1. he called Marika "Mother" till the end, only in his last words he looses faith in her 2. he fought consciously a graceless war for his mother 3. he stayed true to his duty, even after he lost contact to her "Yet...my purpose standeth unchanged. Those stripped of the Grace of Gold shall all meet death. In the embrace of Messmer's flame."
idk how yall arent subscribed and humoring these theories, it helps actually piece together stuff unlike others that just read lore descriptions in order, not that thats bad.
I just had a thought and needed to share it. When Messmer takes out his eye and we look into his eye socket, the ring of flames around his socket looks similar to the Dark Sign from Dark Souls. And when he said "Abyssal Serpent", it made me think of the Primordial Serpents, Kaathe, and Frampt. I doubt there's a connection, but it was something I noticed and thought it was neat.
Okay, so my theory is that if Melina was, in fact, the GEC, Messmer might've been called on to kill Melina. Maliketh, as little more than a beast, had plausible deniability, but Messmer was then branded a traitor for following Marika's orders
@@stampede274 if this was true, I would definitely of expected Morgott to name Mesmer among the “traitors” also, Mesmer doesn’t seem to have been branded as anything. Mesmer isn’t known or mentioned by anyone outside the land of shadow, it’s more likes he’s been hidden away by Marika.
@@donovan4222 or he's simply released from his prison after Messmer had already been sent away. Also, even if Morgott knew of Messmer, there's no way he would name him a traitor when Messmer obediently went to a crusade he would never return from as per ordered by Marika herself. The guy didn't even have great rune to begin with (which further show that he's sent away before the shattering) so he has no right to be a lord (not that he'd want to either).
If you look at the pattern on the Godslayer Sword it looks verry similar with some spiral patterns in Inir-Elim, not to say that the sword itself is a spiral. My theory is that the Gloam-Eyed Queen is not Melina, but her power, or her godlslaying flame was sealed inside her, probably her eye, similar to how Marika sealed Mesmers serpent with an eye-seal. So when we chose the frenzied flame ending, since there is no more Greater Will or grace the seal is broken, the power of the Gloam-Eyed queen activates within her, vowing to deliver the Tarnished destined death. So who was the Gloam-Eyed Queen? She was the Empyrean of the Hornsent, she was above the Gods, since she wielded the power to slay one. I guess the hornsent had a belief system centered around obtaining Godhood or Sainthood, and somehow the Gloam-Eyed queen would oversee and arbitrer this process, so that the ascended Gods do not become corupted and inflict malice upon the world.
This is amazing! I am such a fan of this theory! The final part makes so much more sense than you might think! The hornsent are fans of natural order, destined death is literal natural selection!!
@theemeraldgecko310 This is the only explanation for the item descriptions to make logical sense because we know that Marika ordered Maliketh to slay the Gloam-Eyed Queen, so why do that if it was her own daughter? And we know Melina is fiercely loyal to the Erdtree and Marika since throughout the game all she does is her duty as a Finger Maiden, and if we chose the Frenzied Flame ending she vows to kill us. So the only way this makes sense is that the power of the gloam-eyed queen is sealed within her eye.
@@alexgeorgescu2122 We actually see a Hornsent empyrean in the DLC, remember the Hornsent Grandam? I think she is the best candidate for being the gloam eyed queen. She keeps talking about Marika’s “betrayal” and calls her a “strumpet” which is an old English word for a prostitute basically.
To add on, I think the bird symbol on melinas eye is significant if she is the geq. Messmers eye is infested by the base serpent god influence. Melinas eye the twinbird, the mother of deathbirds. I think the snake and bird juxtaposition is interesting, especially considering the presence of the rot god within malenias eyes eventually. It's almost as if in marikas offspring, the old former outer gods of old times can manifest and take root. The formless mother manifests and shows it self to mogh in some capacity as well.
Has anyone else noticed that the woman in the haligtree Melania arena looks just like st Trina. So maybe it's my headcannon but I feel like Trina went to the haligree area, grew into the tree and began to grow miquellas adult body to put his plans into motion for the dlc
What if the "outburst" you spoke about was Messmer's reaction to Marika asking him to go on the crusade? The fact that he accidentally killed his own sister probably drove him to agree to be the one to take the blame and follow his mother's orders out of guilt for what he did. He saw himself as the villain, so he became that villain.
Great vid mate. We’re here for the wild speculative and fun interpretations of the lore. You deliver. Who do you think is the figure we see burning during the crusade in the trailer of the DLC? I don’t know if people have figured this out yet. Cheers!
Thanks so much Oscar!!! Honestly my theory ages ago was that was the gloam eyed queen, though I’m not sure now! There was just something with the spiral weapon that seemed so gloamy lol
@@theemeraldgecko310 yeah I thought the same. Maybe it was Melina who knows. But yeah, I thought someone would have figured this out by now. I’m not that good at finding shit so of course I wasn’t going to find it my play through. The DLC was fun though. Keep pumping out great content man. 🔥
I think that's meant to be Romina, Saint of the Bud. The weapon she's holding looks similar to the Poleblade of the Bud, and its description pretty much describes what we see in that trailer: "Once, in the crumbling, burning church, Romina held the bud in speechless silence. That bud would become her blade."
@@Solibrae thanks for pointing this out! It was bugging me, but yes this makes sense. Of course I killed this person and didn’t even look twice at the item description. Good eye!
I wish we also got a glintstone butterfly to shed light on why Ranni is an Empyrean. Since there is no such thing I may start thinking she's a jar saint
Deleted my original comment because I completed misread this lmao Totally get where you’re coming from it really is weird! But probably also intentional!
@@Wonderbread91 Ranni isn't cursed like Malenia, Miquella, Messmer and Melina. I don't think the butterflies are an empyrean thing, I think its a "born of one god asexually" thing
@@theemeraldgecko310 There is a theory going around about that. The theory says that the butterflies are a bioproduct of the strange relationship between radagon and Marika because theyre the same body so when in some way messmer was born from marika and radagon almost incestuos relationship the butterfly derived from that action, the same with melina etc etc, is like when in nuclear reactors you divide the same atom into two part and it creates energy, the atom is the body divided in marika and radagon the energy produced is the son in this example messmer and the radioactive waste are the butterflies
I like this theory, as it presents a reasonable alternative to the story. Although, there are two main problems with it: 1) We know from the item descriptions of godskin and Blackflame items, that the GEQ was felled in battle by Maliketh, who wielded the rune of death as his blade, in response to the threat of her Godskin Apostasy. It would make sense that her body was destroyed by destined death, and that her soul managed to survive given her familiarity with destined death, and fire in general. 2) The Erdtree has been burned before. It’s likely that it burned when it was called the Great Tree in the age of the crucible, and would explain why there are ashes all around the elevator leading to the forbidden lands. The exact time period where this occurred is not clear at all, and while Messmer could still have been the one to burn it, it wouldn’t make sense for Melina to be there.
I get what you're saying! Saying that though I get why so much has been around the femboy miquallestor but there is honestly so much lore in this DLC!!!
Maybe i'm wrong here, but the way Melina seems to "harness" the flames from the giants forge is a huge indicator to how Messmer "accidentally" killed her. It seems to me that they might have tried to work together and combine powers to destroy the eardtree but inso doing she essentially self immolated with the help of her brother. This would, in my mind, be also plenty of explanation as to why he was banished to the shadow realm.
@theemeraldgecko310 I only suggest this because each of her kids has some sort of affliction. And who else would the gods call a queen, if she didn't have death at their Finger tips
My theory is that melina and messmir are the same person, same as st. Trina and Miquola are the same, and radagon and merika are the same. My theory is that, similarly to st. Trina, she is a part of messmir that he cast off himself. This part being his feeling of hate and betrayal, but also his love for his mother. He seems numb and kind of juat like a robot. It would make sense that he had to cast her off of him to continue the fight against the hornsent rather than have those feelings boil over and have him turn against his mother.
I really like this theory! I do think he does have some semblance of love and emotion though, he does seem so tired in the boss fight! This could also explain why Melina seems to have a case of good old Amnesia!!
But Saint Trina and "Miquella" are not the same person. And that's been confirmed as well. St Trina is just a part of Miquella that was abandoned. St Trina isn't a person. It's the "nice" part of Miquella. It's his loving side!!
@insanifiable to add onto this, St. Trina and radagon both represent something that each wants but can't obtain. For St. Trina is the most obvious. Miquellas childish need for love and affect while only being able to attain it through his rune. Something that St. Trina seemingly has no issue with. Radagon is trickier, too, pinpoint. I would say radagon is merikas rage for the destruction of her people, but also the love of her people. The last part of her keeping her human. We see merika not fully abandon radagon, which is what brought about her shattering the elden ring, her wanting a family, and her cursing them. The reason why radagon is holding onto the elden ring is that he is terrified his children will die from the greater wills rage. Terrified that it would not send an emissary but distruction for the lands between and all his children.
I've been consuming videos of ER lore and finding channels to watch and got to you. I really like how you present things about the lore so thanks for that. One thing that i can't seem to get and find is videos about Marika offspring(hope you do a video about that)....And what a mean is their order of birth and interactions between them. Who came first??Morgot,Mohg and Godwyn or Melania&Miquella??
Thanks so much this really means the world to me! To me it’s always seemed like Messmer/ maybe Melina, then morgott and mohg, then Godwyn, then Melania and Miquella :)
@@theemeraldgecko310 I think that is about right. Having omen twins after killing off so many hornsent seems like a twist of revenge on Marika for the crusade.
I never thought messmer killed Melina I just saw her being burned and bodiless being her curse since all of her full siblings also have a curse inflicted on them. Plus if she is the gloam eyed queen the lore says she is defeated by maliketh but I’m not sure if it says he kills her in the fight or not.
The Gloam Eyed Queen was defeated by Malikith, so i can see Messmer killing her, cause it doesn't say anywhere Malikith killed her, he only defeated her
We have the confirmation they're brother and sister at least, don't know if they're twins or not but probably they're not as we can see a statue of Marika holding just one baby in Messmer's chamber in the Shadow Keep. Also, I think they're Godfrey's children as we can find Talisman of Lord's Bestowal with Godfrey's image in the Shadow Keep too. As for Melina, I think she burned the first tree, since the erdtree we see in the base game is just a spectral tree and we can see ashes in some parts of Leyndell (even before we go to the mountaintops). Maybe, I'm just speculating here, it was Marika who ordered Melina, as she's the less loved child, the tree burnt to rebirth the erdtree just as she wanted it to be and then started war against giants to ensure "her tree" won't be burned. Also she banishes Messmer to the land of shadows not only to take revenge on the hornsents but because he's the only one left who could burn the tree for himself.
While I love all the lore revelations in the DLC, I am very confused about the timeline…I get the impression that Mesmer and the shadow lands have been sealed away for a very long time…given that no one mentions Mesmer in the lands between and there’s very little evidence he was ever even there. But then they revealed that Mesmer knew Radahn like a brother, knows who the tarnished are, and was apparently approved of by Rennala/Rellana when he went on his crusade…all that seems to imply Mesmer was around at least until after the Liurnian wars…so how is that possible? Makes my brain spin
Well from some tries of making the timeline make sense: 1. Mesmer and Gaius is older than Radahn. Mesmer has radagons red hair. This implies that he is a child of Radagon/Marika from before both Radagons marriage to Rennalla and Marikas Marriage to Godfrey or that Radagons genes can be inherited by a child of Marika and Godfrey which might not be impossible given the weirdness around Radagon/Marika. 2. Since Radahn knew Mesmer then Mesmers crusade happened after the end of the liurnian wars and the marriage between Radagon and Renalla. 3. We know from the offical story of the conquests that both Liurnia and the ancient dragons managed to get peace agreements and alliances everyone else offically got conquered. The final war/conquest of Godfreys host was the fire giants and after that Marika disbanded that army by banishing the original tarnished. 4. For some reason Mesmers penal legion was sent instead of Godfreys army to exterminate the hornsent. It could be because that war or maybe it was a civil war happened after the banishment of Godfrey since after Godfreys banishment the crucible knights and the crucible lost their place in erdtree culture, this could have been the event where it happened. It could instead have been so that Godfrey refused to massacre the hornsent since the land of shadow could have been his homeland since the crucible incantations and the divine beast incantations like the feather ones seem closely linked. 5. I think the reason that so little is known about Mesmer is in large due to Rykard. Rykards vulcano manor is on the surface a beautifull manor to be a guest at but the walls hide secret passages leading to vast prison complexes full of torture victims. Some speculate that this torture kidnapping of guests was the beginning of Rykards betrayal of the Erdtree but I think he did it for the Erdtree. Rykards job in my opinion was to find and torture information out of potential heretics and traitors to the erdtree. So Rykard tracked down and destroyed heretical beliefs but he was therefore exposed to them that is why he knew the most about serpent magic and lore. He covered it up leaving only scant few relics like the serpent sacrifice curved sword or the formless serpent assassin bow outside his personal controll. 6. there we have a theory of the censure of Mesmer, all serpent magic knowledge was destroyed by Rykards inquisition and the serpent was turned into a symbol of despicable enemies of the erdtree in colloseum fights symbolised by the gladiators with serpent armor that were "the bad guys" against other gladiators. Might have been easy for the arena institution who was aligned with godfreys brutal martial ways to decide to paint Mesmer as a villain if Godfrey was sympathetic to the hornsent that Mesmer killed. Hope this wall of text isn't unwelcome I felt inspired to see if I could make the timeline make sense for myself and answer your question at the same time.
@@simonwahlen7150 Not unwelcome at all those were all good points and cleared up a lot. I never thought of the idea that Godfrey would want to leave because of what happened in the shadowlands, or maybe he was banished for disagreeing with Marika? Either way that makes sense. Marika basically sacrificed a bunch of people to attain godhood at the divine gate, joined with Godfrey to conquer the lands between, then after that was done wanted to go back to her original sin and cover it up, as well as get revenge on her original enemies…Godfrey refused/disagreed, him and the tarnished got banished…so she chose Messmer instead, and sealed him in the shown lands. That also explains why Mesmer would be so surprised to see tarnished, because when he left the lands between the tarnished had just been banished…he didn’t know they would return/had returned.
Well. Melina obviously was killed in flesh but not spirit. Which suggests whoever had done it, had the power to give Death. Even if it is only a partial Death. Ranni had to perform a complex exchange to get the same. Where while Godwyn was killed in Spirit only, she was killed in Flesh only. This suggests something had to have happened to allow that outcome. So however it occurred it is related to Death. Not just fire I suspect. Though I suppose it could be that the Dark Fire of Messmer could perhaps have some property that allows it to reduce flesh to something basic and inert.
That was my sort of pet theory! Twins seem to have similar yet different powers, maybe he rune of death powers of Melina/The gloam eyed queen, is present in some similar god slaying way in Messmers flame, I mean they do look similar don’t they?
Melina obviously has a GEQ connection, but there are two things that get overlooked that I find substantial 1) the godskin nobles/apostates (the children? of the gloam eyed Queen) have serpent features 2) Melina wears the same traveling maiden clothes as Millicent who we know is an “offshoot” of Malenia, and Millicent and Gowry call Malenia Millicent’s mother. So Melina’s “mother” could be the GEQ or whoever she is an “offshoot” of. Malenia and Millicent both also seem to have spawned with a purpose that they don’t know everything about.
I kinda connected the dots when I got to Shaman Village and got the Minor Erdtree incantation, since that's Marika's home and Melina uses that same incantation when she helps you fight Morgott
@@theemeraldgecko310 It kinda does, the Gloam Eyed Queen was defeated by Maliketh under Marika's order(i don't remember in which items, but it is there), and then Melina was given purpose by her own mother even tho she was burned and bodyless... when Marika disappeared cause of what we know happened, Melina decided to find a new purpose. Either she was burned by Maliketh or her body got sealed away when the rune was, which could explain why in the Frenzied Flame ending she actually walks to the whistle instead of simply appearing from thin air. Messmer was seen as a threat by Marika, and likely that was the same with Melina(Gloam Eyed Queen) as she literally embodied Destined Death(Messmer's Kindling says his younger sister also bore a vision of fire, and most likely in her case, it was the black fire of Destined Death)
Messmer says that the abyssal serpent was shorn of grace, meaning it previously had it. if melina is the gloam-eyes queen, in charge of destined death, then that sets up messmer to have been the bearer of a holy serpent. perhaps after marika had to seal away destined death, she scorned the serpent and took its light
Smouldering butterflies have to be Melina's butterfly. Melina may have sacrificed her body as kindling previously, or she rebelled against Marika and had Messmer kill her (but the capital has plenty of ash in it before we burn the erdtree, so there was a prior burning that could have just been from the dragon's attack, or maybe something else happened). And she said her mother gave her a task at the Erdtree. His kindling references her "Messmer, much like his younger sister, bore a vision of fire." And they are both kindling - Messmer had an abyssal serpent behind his eye, and Melina's hides destined death. Her weapon description has: "...retaining the power of its former owner, the kindling maiden, is still apparent. The one who walks alongside flame, Shall one day meet the road of Destined Death." She also has the spell that we get from Marika's village (Shaman Villiage) in SotE. It's pretty certain she's Marika's child, and most likely the one referred to as Messmer's sister. Exactly what led her body to be burned is still open, I think.
I love the deep div into the identities of these two amazing characters; you did such a great job with your analysis. I don't think that Melina and Mesmer were twins at birth (there's an item description that heavily implies Melina is the younger sister), but I 100% agree that they are twins in nature. Once again, great job on the video! You earned my subscription, and I can't wait to see more of your lore videos.
Honestly could definitely see this being the case, I just sort of thought of it how in our world we call twins younger or older based on the timeframe they are born, but you’re idea is probably more on point! Thanks so much really means the world!!
I note also that it seems Messmer and his army were already reviled even before the war started. This might just be because everyone knew they were off to commit genocide, or it might be because he had already done something awful, like burn his sister to death trying to destroy the Erdtree or something like that. I think it's also very possible that Melina was in on it. My initial thought playing the DLC was that she saw how Messmer was treated and then became a rebel herself. But it could be that the whole business was already done by then, and that the two siblings were in on it together but their attempted coup failed and Melina ended up dead.
Interesting! Maybe it was un justified hatred? Maybe the accidental burning was portrayed as a premeditated action? I really like all of these points, awesome stuff dude!
As messmer also, melina changes appearance during the frenzied flame ending Her hair turn black and the left Eye Is White. As messmer, the GEQ could be sealed inside her left Eye and, once defeated by Marika, used as a last resort against the worst ending possible
@@theemeraldgecko310 im putting something up here and there by linking some dots like: - the divine Bird ornis ashes tell us he tamed the divine Bird, this could be a reference to the twin kite Bird (y know the shield) since hornsent and death rituals are so close - the ancestral followers could be a society that comes from the hornsent culture (in various areas of the hornsent upgraded versions of the horned talismans can be found) - Godwyn Will never be resurrected since its stated that his knights are waiting for the Age of the duskborn - Marika could be actually a correct result of the sainthood ritual in the jars and Radagon a part of the innards inside that jar, also Marika could have betrayed the hornsent at some point otherwise how could She ascend to the divine tower? Did She Need a consort ti ascend? Maybe radagon was there all along and this could justify messmer and melina presence as the eldest of the demigods. Also, during this period the fingers could have started to act choosing both the GEQ and Marika - Enir Is full of the Marika's arc/ braids iconography, so maybe they warshipped her at some point. - Torrent surely originates from the Land of Shadow as the spirt ashes tecnique. - Midra could be a sort of scholar Who, After meeting nanaya, started studying about the frenzied flame. Since this Is capable of killing the Spirit, the hornsent banned this practice and impaled Midra and his fellows. Nanaya told him to endure the pain and the suffering, for sure she's an agent of the frenzied flame, maybe shabriri?
I don’t know bois. Godskins have a serpentine feature and abilities to them, they fight like snakes. If anything, I think the abyssal serpent inside Messmers eye is the sealed version of the Gloam Eyed Queen or at least a portion of her power.
They do have serpentine features, but snakes also pop up on the coffin like ships that are crashed, which im thinking are the shamans... maybe snakes are just something very much linked to the shaman/numens home land? And that has transferred to Marika's first borns?
@@theemeraldgecko310 I don’t know. Rykard feeding himself to a serpent in that case is a case of irony that Marika probably felt very embarrassed about. My question is, how exactly are these Numens travelling via coffins across some vast ocean. Almost sounds like they were bunched up into coffins and then cast away, cause whatever land they were on before, the people over there didn’t want them.
Maybe Mesmer burned the Erdtree alongside Melina? Because the fact that burning the Erdtree is a cardinal sin, implies it has been done before and might explain why Mesmer was "banished".
@@theemeraldgecko310 ahh no it wasn’t me, i could never have seen that haha! I remember seeing on a youtube video someone speculate: “The Erdtree must’ve been burnt before because it’s a cardinal sin and that implies it’s happened before.” And that really stuck with me, loved that theory, and i have lived by that ever since. Then yesterday I watch your video and it makes even more sense, that mesmer probably did it and maybe him having a snake (snake=bad in elden ring) might be securing the idea that maybe he was behind one of the burnings. Maybe even the first burning! I love to speculate, and i’ll for sure keep watching your videos, you make very good speculations!! And OFCOURSE the whole thing about mesmer and melina being twins, makes total sense. It’s a tragedy what happened to melina but the elden lore is only tragedies so it makes sense 😂
I literally thought this theory up as well and discussed it with other people and they think it makes sense a little bit. But they still think she’s the Gloam Eyed Queen, which wouldn’t make sense because Maliketh killed the Gloam Eyed Queen, and I don’t think Marika would ever want to harm her own children.
Good video. Just a thought, when we first arrive in Leyndell you will see ash in many places. Also most of the houses are boarded up with melted wax. This is to prevent the airborne ash from seeping indoors. So this kinda indicates that the Erdtree was burned before using the fire giant's flame. Who did it or if Melina lost her body from this time is still unclear, but i do think Messmer wasnt involved in this initial burning. i could be wrong. This was discussed by Smoughtown and Tarnished Archeologist in earlier videos. Still a good video 😊
Thank you so much! This is super interesting, I am just wondering though, if they’ve sealed their houses how are they getting in lol? I can definitely imagine that’s why their sealed but maybe the throne room scorch marks are from a different instance? Could be reaching to be fair! Thank you!
what if melina was born with destined death and marika had to get rid of death itself? she sent messmer to kill her and take the rune of death from her. melina only opens her left eye after the frenzied flame ending takes place. could it be because after killing maliketh the rune of death went back to her? just food for thought
It would also make sense if messmer was asked to kill her flesh, doing so brought out his curse and he was banished for it, but it was all part of Melinas plan to overthrow the golden order. Messmer realizing too late he'd been betrayed by her.
So a few ideas. Something that might lend weight to Melina being the GEQ who was once in the possession of the rune of death is the fact that the various great runes held by the other demigods nearly all have been affected by their host, the only exceptions being the anchor ring held by Godrick who beyond his grafting was not notable in any real way and the Rune of the Unborn contained within the amber egg of Rennala who technically was not a host. Meanwhile Radahns, Rykards, Melanias, Miquellas, Morgotts, and Mohgs have all been affected, and how likely could it actually be that they all just happened to have runes that already inherently had aspects similar to them? Not very I think. So should we assume the Rune of Death is different? Could the Rune of Death, removed from the Elden Ring long before the Shattering, have been affected by whoever was it's host? Do we dare assume that the Flame of Destined Death, capable of killing gods, was the original shape that death took when it manifested in the world? Or could it be that Melina, born with an Iris of Grace and Iris of Occultation, which would later be mimicked by priests of the Erdtree and followers of Messmer during his crusade against the Hornsent as an homage to his twin sister who he was separated from, was the original host of the Rune of Death? Could it be her twin brothers banishment that fueled her rage against the rest of her family, prompting her to bestow her black flame of Destined Death on her lineage of pale offspring who possessed snake-like qualities, similar to their uncle who's unbound form bore pale snakes of his own? Could this threat to the Golden Order, which successfully killed multiple demigods, who were decapitated, names and faces forgotten to history, disowned as demigods and now entombed in walking mausoleums, be allowed to persist? Obviously not, so Marika had no choice but to send her most capable warrior, Maliketh, to defeat Melina, who's body was consumed in her own flame but didn't fully die, for the flame of death was her very own power. Maliketh then sealed the rune in his own blade, taking on its current red tinge, and then was sent to Farem Azula beyond time to keep it away from all others who might think to use it for similar intent. Marika, shaman and master schemer that she is, then summoned the spirit of Melina within the Erdtree and sealed both her memories as well as her Occult Eye which would immediately betray her true identity, and then instructed the spirit of Melina to await further command, who as a spirit could only obey her mother and caller. Said command came during the Shattering, when Melina was then sent away to complete her purpose. Then, in the frenzied flame ending, with the erdtree destroyed and the grace of gold removed from the world, her Iris of Grace faded away, the tint of her lineage gone and the seal held in place on her left eye no longer sustained by Marika's power could open once more, leaving only the form of the Gloam-Eyed Queen, reborn from the connection she still had to now unbound Destined Death. TL:DR Melina is the GEQ and she waged war on her mother and family because Messmer had been banished and removed from history.
The only problem i will point out is the fact that it is said in game that Malakeith is the one who kills the Gloam Eyed Queen before the rune of destined death is sealed. It is possible for Melina to be the gloam eyed queen and still fit the timeline she wears the same jewelry as the godskins plus what she says about destined death at the end of the frenzied flame ending there's a good video theory by another that explains this more in depth but the correlation is definitely there
pausing the video to comment this so you might go on to say this, but where I'm at you're talking about the possibility that Messmer accidentally "scorched" the gate of the Erdtree and at the same time burned Melina. However, i remember watching a video from another creator (I apologize as I'm not sure who right now) talking about how Leyndell is already covered in a SIGNIFICANT amount of ash when we get there - when we burn the Erdtree ourselves with Melina's spirit as kindling, it adds tons more. I think there's a pretty good chance that Messmer actually fully burned the Erdtree in the past, which would also explain why the tree is spectral rather than physical, at least until you are specifically at the gate - which again, looks burned. When Messmer burned the Erdtree long ago, he burned Melina's physical form as well the physical form of the Erdtree. Then, we later burn both Melina's spirit and also the "spiritual/spectral" version of the Erdtree. This could also connect with him having "fled" the Erdtree as described by another thing in game (I believe the spirit ashes of a black knight? andreas maybe?) and why the serpent is considered a traitor to the Erdtree. Just my thoughts! :)
Nice idea. One thing: I don't think the Melina we see at grace points is really what she looked like before. When we summon her to fight Morgott, her hair seems to me to be much darker. The red effect applied to summons makes it hard to tell, but I think the color of her hair at grace points would look lighter with that effect. To my eyes, it even seems redder than just the effect alone would do, but maybe my saturation is too high or I'm delusional. Anyway, I'm wondering if maybe we summon the Melina from before she was burned and she actually did have proper red hair? I saw a post saying that the Morgott fight is the only time we "see her in the flesh". If that's true then it must be her from the past when she had flesh, no?
I think you're onto something, but it's heavily implied that Melina is Messmer's younger sister in the description of one of the items he drops. I find it unlikely they are twins like Miquella and Malenia.
I think it is interesting that Melina says she was born at the foot of the erdtree and we find the scorch marks you pointed out there at the foot. Maybe by being born she means into the spectral form she now inhabits, that made me wonder! I also think that messmer is the base serpent; in the trailer marina removes the threads from the snakes right eye; messmers second form in battle has a different color scheme for the snakes, they are pale like the snake in the trailer, the eye she removes the gold threads from is on the same side as the eye messmer removes. So I’m wondering what his role in her ascension to godhood was, and whether or not the ‘betrayal’ that is spoken of in the dlc was marika betraying her own son? Lots of interesting stuff! Keep up the speculation, really enjoy these :)
Knowing GRRM too well, Melina and Messmer are definitely tragic accursed twins) However, there are a few things to be addressed, that I'm not sure make sense. We know from the incantation descriptions the god-killing flame was a thing long ago, and now, black flame is just a pathetic part of it. It references us to the Gloam-eyed queen being defeated by Maliketh. Has it occurred before Messmer and Melina were even born? Because they inherited different parts of the flame, exemplified by colours. Or is Messmer's flame completely something else, of Outer God origin? They just confuse us with the symbolism of four different flames. We have hints that Melina as a maiden was: rebirthed from the Rune of Unborn, held captive for some time, lost much of her memory and was given a role in Marika's grand escape plan - to serve as a kindling to burn the Erdtree. But if so, why the hell Marika would rebirth this Melina with a gloam-eye, making her potentially her rival? Why did this eye occur in the first place? And why not ask for Messmer's flame instead, if he's known to be devoted to her, despite her abandoning him? And lastly, there are quite a few factions interested in god-slaying business, but the one who actually succeeded in it was Messmer, right? Why then, it's never mentioned anywhere in the base game? Especially, with Nox, Godskin apostles, Blackkinfe assassins... If there was a precedent of an empyrian (Melina) being killed, it should and would have been used by everyone interested.
Nothing, absolutely NOTHING in both the base game and the DLC implies Messmer has anything to do with Melina's death. Brother and sister? Absolutely. By a deferent parent then the other children of Marika? Almost certainly. Fratricide? Pulled out of the left field. Any "evidence" as presented is purely interpretative and circumstantial.
I like this theory and feels it has good weight. My competing theory relates back to Marika and the state of her and her motivations. We see Marika’s body hanging, then fall from, the broken Elden Ring. But for someone so afraid of death, and who has turned from the path of divinity in a way, what do we know of her soul/spirit? Melina is bodyless, created in the Erdtree and now exists as a spirit. Miquella divested himself of his body to ascend godhood. Ranni divested her body to escape the control of the Greater Will. Did Marika pull a Ranni/Miquella to divest herself of her body, and ultimately through the tarnished, free herself from the shackles of Divinity? What might that look like? Divesting her body and Radagon’s aspect to become Melina, free to travel once more and guide the tarnished, could be the answer.
I’m not sure why theorizing about the family fighting each other is so prevalent. Especially when Marika had an entire regime of Hornsent & their crucible to exact retribution upon. Melina, the Gloam-Eyed Queen, brought death to Marika’s enemies. After they were dead the rune of death was sealed willingly. Or Melina burned the ancient Erdtree physical tree from the age of plenty. Marika’s golden Erdtree rose from the ashes.
I do get what you mean! If you’re referring to the theory in this video, I more meant I thought it might have been an accidental burning of Melina! That’s actually a really interesting idea! Love it!
@@theemeraldgecko310 Marika crafted the history. I think the Gloam-Eyed Queen was a moniker created to give Destine Death a form Queen Marika could overcome. The Golden Order of Queen Marika removed the rune of death but really it was just Melina following her mothers order and killing her enemies or the Hornsent. Melina's body was burned I don't think it was Messmer. Reasonable assumption to think both were still on the board for Marika to use as pawns until after Godfrey was Exiled. If -Queen Marika felt that Messmer's fire & curse needed to be hidden. Then she may have had a hand in how Melina's body was burned. Either purposefully to achieve something tangible or as a result of sealing the rune of death in Malikath's blade.
I have a theory that Melina also has "another self" that was sealed away. I think she isn't the Gloam Eyed Queen but the Gloam Eyed Princess, where she was able to disappear by killing her body, but not her soul.
Unrelated but based on the Beast Claws fighting animation and the whole "Bear communion" thing with Highland Warriors. I can't help but wonder if Godfrey prior to being Elden Lord was a Highland Warrior. The Hourah Loux phase just really jumps out to me when I see this culture of bear handed bear fighters. The Glorified set actually in some ways reminds me the Elden Lord armor and it explains why Hourah Loux removes it and then scratches himself to draw blood. He was putting the glorified red of a bear fighter back on. At least that's my theory.
Something that can also count is the relationship with snakes. After all, the godskin nobles and apostles, followers of the gloan eyed queen, have some serpent aspects, because she wrapped them in a type of cloak for that purpose.
before even watching the video, ill edit this if im convinced otherwise but uhhhhh its pretty clear Malina is the gloamed-eye queen and in some item descriptions it was said Maliketh was the one to defeat her and her army with his black blade since the gloamed-eyed queen had the power to rival marika, which she didnt take lightly
Hey I know this is late but just a heads up, Melina’s hair isn’t pink it’s actually brown. The lighting in elden ring makes it appear pink. You can see this yourself by making a lighter brown hair character and going to the areas you see Melina in game(leyndell) if you get summoned as a yellow it appears pink too.
I don't think that Messmer killed Melina. Going into Leyndell you see ash piles everywhere. Then after we burn the tree, the ash is piled high. I'm pretty sure Melina has already fulfilled her role as kindle maiden once before, got her erdtree burial, and was resurrected to do it again at the time of the Shattering. Messmer was most likely sent away because he also had fire and Marika was not only scared of the flames but the serpent inside of him.
What if Melina is the Gloam-Eyed Queen, afflicted like Messmer with this other being in her. What if she’s burned and bodiless because Markia had to kill her flesh to expel or seal the Gloam-Eyed aspect of Melina? Just a thought.
@@theemeraldgecko310 I hadn’t been sold on the connection until we got Messmer. The fact that he harbors the Base Serpent (some kind of deathly separate entity) and Malenia harbors the outer being of Scarlet Rot, it stands to reason that Melina, being Messmer little sister, also born of Marika and Radagon, was afflicted with a black flame. And perhaps she rose against her mother in that alternate form. Wildly fun stuff to speculate.
I'd like to think that Melina is actually a discarded part of Messmer left in the lands between just before Messmer went on a crusade for her mother Marika in the DLC somewhat like his other half just the same as Marika and Radagon to Miquella and St. Trina since we don't really know much about her right until the dlc that she has a connection with Messmer. I could be wrong since she has this gloam eye queen with her.
Edit: huge disclaimer, ignore the part where I said the item description was removed, turns out it was a hoax I couldn’t verify due to having already used the item, I am very sorry. Good point is it can still be used to further the points in this video! MELINA IS MESSMERS TWIN IS FURTHER REINFORCED! I’m very sorry for the misunderstanding!
Edit edit…: I messed up big time I said Melina was soulless when I meant bodiless… cmon gecko
Hello everyone! Hope you're all having a great day! I felt like I needed to say, I don't dislike the Godwyn cocoon theory but I don't personally believe it, that does not mean it's bad though!
Take a shot every time I say in my opinion... actually please don't
Would also like to say, Messmer says he hates his flame, yet we never find out why... Maybe this is why?
Music is a mixture of :elden ring shadow of the erdtree music, hollow knight music and music from the man the myth the legend @Alexroe !
Don't you dare go hollow friends!!!
The discord for the channel: discord.gg/xv8t5bFSzd
Great video. Great channel. Keep it up.
They are %100 twin siblings, the butterfly theory is on-point... and I don't know any Elden-Loreist who (so far) disputes this. What's crazy is Melina says she was 'born' at the foot of the Erdtree and her mother is 'inside' the Erdtree. So this would suggest that Messmer was also born at the foot of the Erdtree. I think it was the infant Erdtree they were born at the 'foot' of, because Marika became a 'god' in the land of shadow (or Scadu lol ). So the Neuman must be able the Asexually reproduce by being Radagon and Marika both in the same body and when they planted the Erdtree they also reproduced for the first time. One child, Messmer was plagued by a dark serpent so he will do the killing and the other, Melina... would be the one who governs death and becomes the Gloam-Eyed Queen. Who would become too powerful and had to be defeated by Maliketh so he could seal away the Rune of Death.... I get too into this theory crafting stuff, but I love it. 🍻 Cheers mate ! !
@joejones8776 thanks so much!!!
Maybe the born at the foot of the Erdtree is less literal? Maybe her new life “Melina” was born here?
What you’re talking about to do with the numen asexually reproducing is giving heavy Athena mind baby vibes lmao!
Thanks so much too!
@@theemeraldgecko310 there's so much we don't know concerning Melina's early life as the Gloam-eyed Queen and her eventual defeat at the hands of maliketh. Who is Markia's "Shadow" which seals away the rune of death.
The Gloam-eyed Queen is the most enigmatic figure in all of Elden Ring to me. I hope if there's ever a continuation, another game, movie, anime, whatever... that they explore this further.
Agreed! I feel we have a good understanding of her, but it would be so nice to have some more information dropped on her!
I really doubt the gloam eyed queen is Melina.
For one, it wouldn’t make much sense for Marika’s daughter to be the gloam eyed queen, it’s heavily implied that the Godskins were a faction of people pre dating Marika’s ascension that controlled death who Marika has to defeat very early on to establish the golden order. So Melina would of had to of been born, grown up, somehow controlled the death rune, and then establish the godskin apostles and all of their traditions/culture, all before Marika established the golden order and sealed away death. Based on how Melina’s spirit looks, she probably wasn’t even that old when she died.
Secondly, Melina says she was born at the foot of the erd tree where her mother gave her purpose. She kind of talks about this like she’s grateful for this, but found her own purpose in life. If she was the gloam eyed queen, I’d expect her to just hate Marika and want revenge or something, but Melina just seems pretty neutral toward Marika.
Lastly, It’s heavily implied that her “purpose” has to do with being used as the kindling maiden, not anything to do with death or black flames. Melina also never uses any black flame incantations or shows any connection to the godskins. So her role of Marika’s daughter and kindling maiden kind of seems to clash with the gloam eyed queen role in a way that makes me feel they definitely aren’t the same person.
They would have to go back in time to when she lost the fight to Maliketh.
@@donovan4222 The line about being born at the foot of the tree when her mother gave her purpose isn't necessarily literal.
It can be figurative, as in 'When she killed me, I got a new, bodiless life, and a new purpose...to destroy all she's built.'
@@danpitzer765 Yeah I totally agree, but I would expect her character to have a lot more resentment toward Marika if she was the gloam eyed queen.
I think the only connection Melina has to destined death is that her soul is destined to die to burn the erd tree.
It would make sence in the why Messmer was left sealed in the land of shadow. Marika has a death phobia, and she did the same with the flame of ruin. If she saw that her childs has flames that could kill, she would absolutely seal them too.
Would be interesting to see if Messmer’s flame also kills gods, or maybe it’s directly opposite like other twins where in it aids gods? I’m not sure! Definitely agree with you’re point though!
@@theemeraldgecko310 It looks like the red flame of the death rune tho.
i think she did the same with Melina, as the Gloam-Eyed Queen she grew too powerful and Destined Death had to be sealed away... vis-à-vis Maliketh, her 'Shadow'.
🤡
@@SuperMaster000X someone on Kosmos’ stream posited that Messmer’s flame actually only exists, they way it does now, due to Marika sealing the Rune of Death, and subsequently posited that THIS results in the Shadowy nature of his Red Flames. They said that this is also the reason why there is SO MUCH undeath in the Land of Shadow (I.e - spirit graves, the shadow fodder enemies of the Land of Shadow, etc.). Messmer’s Flame, influenced by the sealing of Death, is the reason why there is perpetual and unwavering death in the Land of Shadow. It’s literally Hell. No one can truly die. They burn in the Flames of Messmer, but still are forced to remain alive with the Flame’s shadow. Forcing them to live a perpetual life of death
The fact we don't know ANYTHING about Melina is criminal.
One of the most well liked characters and even after a dlc we got nothing...
I think that’s part of the reason, she’s an amazing character and her character is also so enigmatic
@@lBorosDavidl The fact that she’s so central to the story but also mysterious is part of the appeal. The most info we get is from Melina’s own dialogue and the blade of calling description.
Is not criminal its part of life, its not marvel, you wont get to know everything, some shit never gets revelead ever or until a new game.
People went years without knowing who was Gwyn lost son, we still dont know who lady tomoe from Sekiro is, and many other things, thats part of fantasy world building lol
I hope y’all know this is the not the last of Elden Ring Lol😂😂 if Dark souls got 3 titles and was less popular than Elden ring in sales , then you can bet your sweet silly ass that they will at LEAST give us one last Title with a DLC or just one last title but I’m general I don’t believe this is the actual end of Elden ring since we haven’t got Gloamed Eye Queen Content and much more
@@Ofghktathen where’s seikro 2?
Also another thing to prove the cocoon of the empyrean is Miquella, the ring on the hand is the same ring as the ring on his hand in the flashback memory cutscene at the end.
Was it you’re comment who said that before? I did have it in the video, but I cut it out because I thought you meant in the boss fight and for the life of my couldn’t see it! Thank you for clarifying where it was, I know I said this before but this was an amazing catch!
@@theemeraldgecko310 I might have but I wouldnt remember. It might have been someone else though, but I know I noticed it when BonfireVN made a video showing the model of Young Miquella and comparing it with his other models
@@bombthing idk why people would think it’s Godwyn when it’s stated his body was buried at the roots of the erdtree and you can visit it at Deeproot depths
But isint it Morgotts model?
@@draw2death421 No, none of Miquella's models are connected to Morgott, though the withered arm is similar to Morgott's corpse arm, it dorsnt have the same accessories
“My purpose was given to me by my mother,inside the Erdtree,long ago. I won’t let anyone speak ill of that,not even you” she LITERALLY tells you she’s one of Marikas kids in the base game if you’re doing the Frenzy path. Why does no one talk about this?
I have no idea, Melina has always been a Demi god in my eyes, glad the dlc helps support that!
I personally thought it was a misdirect, and that we would find out that she was Marika's sister, and she is referring to their shared mother. But that theory seems definitively dead now!
There's no comma, my mother inside the erdtree is a noun phrase referring to Marika. Melina's game file name is daughter of Marika. It's been known.
literally everyone talks about this. Everyone knows shes marikas daughter its stated and implied so many times
I still think Melina is the grace from Rannis soul. Ranni is still in a technical way Merikas kid. She was born in death and not really alive. Ranni wanted to remove the part of her that was bound by grace. Killing her body wouldn't have killed the grace in the soul. If bringing back death was the task rannis finger gave her, then she would have the task of the gloam eyed queen. The fingers gave the gloam eyed queen that greater purpose, there's no reason it couldn't be the objective of another.
Crackpot add-on: What if Messmer’s Serpent manifested unexpectedly in some way that harmed Melina, leading to the chain of events we follow in the game like sealing him with Grace and shipping him off to do war?
This was my sort of theory from the video too! We both seem to have come up with super similar ideas!!
@@theemeraldgecko310 you know what they say about great minds😄
@ZeroN1neZero seems so🐍
That theory about an accidental outburst from Messmer holds a lot of dramatic weight, even if there’s so little actual evidence for it. His brooding, melancholic nature would have far deeper roots than just the bloodshed he inflicted on the Hornsent.
And about the hair - nobody ever mentions that Miquella has straight-up luscious blonde locks just like his mother. Messmer and Malenia inherited his red hair, but Miquella got his mother’s. So I think Melina’s off-pink can fit in that grouping too
He’s honestly such a tragic character and as time goes by he just gets more and more tragic!
That’s actually a good point!! I hadn’t thought of it like that!
Imma drop this here
Its from the Ingame description of Messmers Orb and I am pretty sure there has to be a reason why its there since the fight against him doesn’t necessarily show this behavior
Messmer despised his own fire. Time and time again he hoped to
rid himself of it, but ever did it burn.
In his Orb description it states "he hated his fire" and wanted to get rid of it. so there is certainly something there that has made him hate a part of himself. This could very well be what happened!
Young Miquella in the final cutscene of the DLC is wearing the same ring thats on the hand thats coming out of the cocoon. The person inside the cocoon was Miquella. Pretty much confirmed.
Yep! Im quite glad it’s confirmed now, always loved the idea that malformed body was Miquella’s, adds another layer!
They removed that description from the game?? Shiver-me-timbers Fromsoft, give us something!
I know right! I was so exited about it, then I was doing some brushing up on the exact words in the description and found out it got removed in the last patch!
@@theemeraldgecko310 Hey, I just wanted to point out to you that the item description for Messmer's Kindling was not removed from the game. There was a hoax post going around that got a lot of traction, and since people are completing the DLC and have burnt the Kindling Tree, they can't confirm it since they don't have the item anymore. Just want to make sure you know it's still there
Oh wait really! That’s such a relief but also so annoying, I had beaten the game so I couldn’t verify, thank you for letting me know ❤️❤️
The description still mension a sister having a vision of Flame, so the link is still obvious
@@theemeraldgecko310 almost like its proof they didnt care for her to have a big role
her purple eye is definitely an iris of occultation, and mesmer had an iris of grace
Two opposites!
Literally this yet people still can't accept they aren't doing anything with the gloam eyed queen cuz she's DEAD
Hmmmmm if this is so then 2 conclusions
Mesmer was given iris of grace to keep something dark at bay
Then Malina was given the other to block her from receiving grace?
For what reason should she be shunned from receiving grace? Hmmm
@@FadedClutch it deleted my reply...
Literally this and people just can't let go of the gloam eyed queen theory. She's gone Marikas offed her Melina isn't her lol
@UnholyWrath3277 why does she promise to deliver destined death on the flame of frenzy ending?
I wonder if burning the erdtree would be similar to the sin of all sins, almost like biting the apple of eden, and considering messmer covers the serpent symbolism, I wonder if melina represents the apple, "born at the foot of the erdtree" which is when her journey began to seek a champion to help guide her to burn it, as if she is the most important catalyst to this event.
Going with this connection, we the tarnished indulged in this “apple” and gained the ability to go to farum azula.. I don’t know maybe I’m reaching!
The fact people think the lore in the DLC is lackluster BLOWS my mind.
Tell me about it! I’m loving the lore!
@@cjh.1920 The shaman village and Bonny village lore were some of the craziest lore reveals that fromsoft has ever done.
It's because of people's expectations with Godwyn and the Gloam-eyed Queen. I had no expectations because I knew everything couldn't be answered with one DLC. I am happy with all the lore we got in SOTE.
@@MikaMikaWhateverThere was a little bit of Godwyn lore in some of the catacombs, but I can see why that would be disappointing. I think a big part of Godwyn's role in this story is that everyone wants the Golden Boy to be relevant, an inspiration. But he's just not. That's a common theme in GRRM's stories, I feel this character comes in large part from him.
@@theemeraldgecko310 I’d argue the environmental storytelling is improved on in every way. There’s so. Much. Detail.
Also think about this. The GEQ’s sword is located at the bottom of Radahn’s divine tower being guarded by a Godskin Apostle. Radahn and Messmer were also close friends.
I completely bloody overlooked this OH MY GOD! Thanks for sharing this!
That was some very subtle foreshadowing if intentional!
@@theemeraldgecko310 The one that killed the GEQ was Maliketh not Messmer. I don't know why y'all just ignore this
@fakechloe207 it never says he killed her :)
@@theemeraldgecko310 "Sacred sword of the Gloam-Eyed Queen who controlled the Godskin Apostles before her defeat at the hands of Maliketh."
I'm curious why you'd would think Maliketh is capable of defeating anything without killing it. I may missed something
I like where you're going with this. Staying with the concept of duality, i think Melina had the ability to freely change from herself to the Gloam-Eyed Queen. I think she - as the Gloam-Eyed Queen - was imprisoned in that secret chamber where we find the Blade of Calling. In that item's description, it says that the bearer will eventually meet Destined Death, the power the Gloam-Eyed Queen possesses. It is possible that Messmer attempted to free his sister, purposefully burning her body in an attempt to free her soul. But Merika stopped the plot, banished Messmer to the Shadow Lands, and rebirthed Melina's soul in the Erdtree, but didn't restore her memories. Melina herself says that her mother spoke to and raised her from within tbe Erdtree, but she doesnt remember much of anything else. That could be a spicy twist. Also explains more of Messmer's hate towards Merika...
Didn’t melina also state she was born at the base of the erd tree. Its possibly she was rebirth by marika after she killed gloam eyed queen. It would potentially explain messmer curse and melina strong desire to burn the tree
It does! The interesting part about the gloam eyed queen, is it never says she was killed!
The Beast Eye given by gurranq is the same shade of purple as melinas, and the claw marks on melinas eye could be representative of Maliketh taking her one of her Gloam Eyes. I think afterward, maliketh uses the Red and black flames to burn her body away, but not her soul, as only frenzied and ghost flame sre described as burning souls away. This fight could have happened at the foot of the Erdtree, where we see scorch marks, possibly from her black flame. There, her spirit form is given new purpose.
I like this theory!!
Imho, Melina is the GEQ and she got all the way to the foot of the Erdtree before being stopped by Maliketh. Perhaps both her and Messmer where afflicted with a serpentine curse (see the theories about Eiglay being Marika's first consort). Marika thought that if Melina could do this then Messmer could do it too, so Messmer got exiled so he would be allowed to live. Then, Melina had her memory erased and she was not given back her body since the curse lived inside her flesh. This was Marika's way of saving both her children. Yet, since Melina had become infamous as the GEQ, she had to start a new life. The only thing she was allowed to know is that Marika was her mother, so at least she would know she was loved by her. Melina's arc in the game is actually an ironic redemption arc. She does finally burn the tree down, but she does so not out of rebellion against Marika, but out of love for her so our player can free her.
@@assasinsbear I really doubt the gloam eyed queen is Melina.
For one, it wouldn’t make much sense for Marika’s daughter to be the gloam eyed queen, it’s heavily implied that the Godskins were a faction of people pre dating Marika’s ascension that controlled death who Marika has to defeat very early on to establish the golden order. So Melina would of had to of been born, grown up, somehow controlled the death rune, and then establish the godskin apostles and all of their traditions/culture, all before Marika established the golden order and sealed away death. Based on how Melina’s spirit looks, she probably wasn’t even that old when she died.
Secondly, Melina says she was born at the foot of the erd tree where her mother gave her purpose. She kind of talks about this like she’s grateful for this, but found her own purpose in life. If she was the gloam eyed queen, I’d expect her to just hate Marika and want revenge or something, but Melina just seems pretty neutral toward Marika.
Lastly, It’s heavily implied that her “purpose” has to do with being used as the kindling maiden, not anything to do with death or black flames. Melina also never uses any black flame incantations or shows any connection to the godskins. So her role of Marika’s daughter and kindling maiden kind of seems to clash with the gloam eyed queen role in a way that makes me feel they definitely aren’t the same person. I think Melina is a parallel to Mesmer, while Mesmer dedicates his life to Marika’s purpose and uses his flame to burn the erdtree’s enemies, Melina finds her own purpose and uses her flame to burn the erdtree itself.
@@donovan4222 @donovan4222 I have been resistant to the theory that the GEQ is Melina for a while before recently starting to believe in it. For me it was also an issue that she didn't use blackflame and the fact she uses the minor erdtree incantation made me wonder if she wasn't some kind of Marika clone (similar to Milicent). Personally, what made me believe she might actually be the GEQ was replaying the game. I noticed that the two first times we get introduced to her, she is seen with the hood over her head and only her mouth showing, while a circular brooch is pinning her cloak. This design matches the appearance of the Godskins very closely. This kind of detail must be intentional knowing the level of artistic intent found in the game. So either it's misdirection or Melina must have some connection to the GEQ. Then, when you consider she is most likely Messmer's sister, it follows she would be born with a body. Marika can revive people, she revives the player over and over. You could say, well, maybe she needs to be a spirit to help the player, so she can't have a body. But to me it feels cold of Marika not to give her daughter her body back even if there is a greater purpose.
@@assasinsbear That’s really interesting I never noticed the thing with her hour and outfit! I can see why so many fans theorize her as the GEQ, she does have some connections to destined death with her dialogue in the frenzied flame ending, and the blade of calling description (Melina’s dagger which looks suspiciously like the black knives that killed Godwyn). That is definitely the strongest evidence for her being connected to the GEQ.
My personal theory that I think is most likely is that the Hornsent Grandam is the gloam eyed queen. First, she’s an empyrean who predates Marika, so she fits with the timeline better I believe. If you look at her outfit, it’s also a bit similar with her eyes covered by both her hood and her horns, and a sort of old tattered cloak that she wears.
Second, she constantly talks about Marika’s betrayal and calls her a “strumpet” (prostitute) almost like she is bitter toward her, and they have some kind of history beyond just what happened to the Hornsent. Thats the type of attitude I would expect the GEQ to have toward Marika, as opposed to Melina who is more neutral toward Marika.
Third, we know the Hornsent had the opposite views about death to the golden order. They embraced death as part of a natural cycle of life and rebirth. So if would make sense for her to be a rival to Marika for godhood that wielded the power of death who Marika had to defeat to establish her golden order.
The only thing holding me back on this theory is I can’t find any connection between grandam and the godskins. But it checks a lot of boxes and makes a lot of sense to me.
@@donovan4222 it is a pretty good theory too. It would also make sense why all these Godskin weapons and the Godslaying Greatsword share a spiral pattern like we see in Hornsent buildings and incantations.
@@assasinsbear Great point, that also implies to me that the Godskins pre date Marika and were probably in charge of handling the death rune for a long time before she sealed it away.
You telling me to not subscribe unless I liked the content made me instantly subscribe without watching a thing yet. Nice to have you be reasonable about it and not acting entitled to support.. after finishing the video you did great and I will enjoy more of it. Work well done!
Thank you so much! I always find it a little silly people doing it fully at the beginning when the people haven’t even watched the video yet! Thanks again means a lot!
@@theemeraldgecko310 hell yeah man keep on rocking it 🤙
@lokinslawomir0793 I’ll try man thank you!
I sometimes disagree with your conclusions, but I found myself enjoying many of your videos. They're well edited, the informations are perfectly summarized and clearly presented. Subscribed! Keep up the good work man
I think that’s honestly the best way to go about watching these videos, disagreeing with something and then discussing the alternatives opens up so many further avenues!!
Thanks so much it truly means the world to me!!
@@theemeraldgecko310 marika was afraid of messmer bc theres literally an outer god inside him lmao the base serpent
@@undefined5083, the use oof lmao and you commentinf after he replied to someone makes me think of a worse case scenario.
@@billtimothyimmanuelsiraitg4166 ?
I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else, but I just noticed - doesn't Messmer's eye look like an Iris of Grace item that you pick up later in the DLC? And Melina's secret ending eye, it also looks similar to the Eye of Occult, does it not? I wonder...
Definitely see where you’re coming from! Maybe it’s an altered iris of gold? Made by Marika herself? Messmers eye holds or of similarity’s with Marika’s runes from the dlc!
theres a huge misconception that the description of the kindling had been changed i have the item currently after the most recent it patch the description is still the same
I’m so sorry, I had already burnt it, I trusted people’s words I’m really sorry
@@theemeraldgecko310You burnt it? I see you too, bore a vision of fire
@@theemeraldgecko310 your good it’s not your fault at all
@ScorpioOG if you’re sure, thank you for letting me know 🙏
I like the length and the way you talk. Most storytellers talk quickly and monotonously so I get tired and bored before they get to the point
Thank you so much! I’m the same if I’m being honest, my attention span is absolute donkey poop
There was a video talking about the theory of Melina being Miquella and its so good that i believe it now
I remember! That really was a good video! Not sure if I 100% believe it, but I love it regardless! Timmy boy makes some great videos!
@@theemeraldgecko310 a lot of good points and the only reason I didn't actually believe it because I dont want my waifu to be a male molester lol
@@theemeraldgecko310 Nvm my waifu is Ranni
A few days ago while replaying the base game I saw the cutscene where Melina's other eye opens. Her hair not only turns Black, but it also has white stripes. I didn't notice that before, even tho I've played the game so many times.
Interesting! Perhaps some of her blond hair genetics coming into play?
Yeah, plus there's the fact in the Lord of Frenzied Flame ending, the all the color in Melina's right eye, which has a sort of golden color to it prior to the Frenzied ending, has since faded into an off-white afterwards, almost like she's become blind or at least near-blind in her right eye or something. Or maybe that is the Grace of Gold having left her entirely. I wonder...
@@theemeraldgecko310 yo i noticed melina also kind of acts like marika while messmer more like a warrior and general like radagon
Melina also participated in the Night of Black Knives as a demigod killer. Probably soon afterward, using the skins of the dead demigods collected during the Night to empower her godskin apostle army, she began her rebellion as the Gloam-eyed Queen but was soundly defeated by Maliketh in the end.
Likely her burning came after the defeat.
@@rclaws3230 That doesn’t make sense with the timeline though, the night of black knives happened AFTER death was sealed away by Marika and the GEQ was defeated by Maliketh. We know this because Godwyn was the first demigod to die and Ranni had to steal a piece of death from Maliketh to forge the black knives.
I’ve gotta agree with Donovan, this could of had some merit and I personally quite like it, but I don’t see how it fits into the timeline :)
@@donovan4222 You might be right, I may be forgetting where the GEQ rebellion sits on the timeline. Do you know off-hand what lore bit places the GEQ chronologically?
But Melina did participate in the NOBK, that's pretty clear.
@@rclaws3230 The gloam eyed queen was the leader of the godskins and wielded the destined death rune part of the Elden ring. Marika’s main goal was to create a world without death, so she commanded Maliketh to defeat the gloam eyed queen, and had him in charge of guarding destined death in Farum Azula, a place outside of time, so death wouldn’t exist in the lands between.
Since Marika had to do this to establish the golden order, and it’s implied death hadn’t existed for a long time…it had to of happened pretty early in the timeline in my opinion. Like one of the first things she did after becoming a god.
There is still somethings unexplained. A few things:
1. Why do Ranni and Melina share the same eye tatoo and knowledge of Torrent?
2. If Melina IS the GEQ(as opposed to just connected to the GEQ), why is it that never at any point in the game does she ever warn us about the Godskins the same way she has the Frenzied Flame? We all know the GEQ is like a mother to them.
3. If Destined Death was a threat to Marika’s order, why didnt or couldnt Marika lock Melina in the realm of Shadow like she did her brother Mesmer? Why is she still trotting about in the Lands Between?
the first thing im not really sure but my theory is that she would become the next gloam eyed queen and imitate melina under marikas likings like ranni thought so the rune of death was stolen from melina and ranni never received anything and was betrayed
@theemeraldgecko310 Marika never feared Messmer, she hid him away to protect him. Both loved each other, but now is Marika captured inside the erdtree, so everyone in the shadowlands are thinking that they were abandoned by her. Messmers last words, are words of desparation, he feels betrayed, maybe because he sees a faint glimmer of grace in us, so basicaly Marikas guidance. After long time not hearing anything from his mother and then seeing a graceless tarnished under her guidance must be like betrayal.
Right! Awesome ideas!!! I honestly love them!
From his remembrance : A malevolent snake writhed within Messmer, and so his very mother plucked out his eye and put in its place a seal of grace. Yet, having done so, her fear compelled her to secret away her child within the realm of shadow. Hidden away-keeping company with the original sin, and a hatred that would not be confined.
@@KindredSunlight
"malevolent snake writhed within" - not so great for messmer or his body, possession by evil
"plucked out his eye and put in its place a seal of grace" - a drastic measure to seal away the malevolent snake
"secret away her child" - not discarded or banned, but secret away and her "child" - direct reference to motherhood, stereotypical = love, care, protection
"keeping company" - not his hatred, hatred of the hornsent people.
1. he called Marika "Mother" till the end, only in his last words he looses faith in her
2. he fought consciously a graceless war for his mother
3. he stayed true to his duty, even after he lost contact to her
"Yet...my purpose standeth unchanged.
Those stripped of the Grace of Gold shall all meet death.
In the embrace of Messmer's flame."
idk how yall arent subscribed and humoring these theories, it helps actually piece together stuff unlike others that just read lore descriptions in order, not that thats bad.
Thanks dude, this honestly means the world to me 💚
This is so true. I tend to not subscribe to Emerald Gecko's theories, but I subscribe the hell out of his channel though
I just had a thought and needed to share it. When Messmer takes out his eye and we look into his eye socket, the ring of flames around his socket looks similar to the Dark Sign from Dark Souls. And when he said "Abyssal Serpent", it made me think of the Primordial Serpents, Kaathe, and Frampt. I doubt there's a connection, but it was something I noticed and thought it was neat.
They probably couldn't resist throwing in another cheeky reference to Dark Souls in there.
I agree with Soli, fromsoft LOVES their references! Awesome catch man!
Okay, so my theory is that if Melina was, in fact, the GEC, Messmer might've been called on to kill Melina. Maliketh, as little more than a beast, had plausible deniability, but Messmer was then branded a traitor for following Marika's orders
Cool idea! I love all these theories their awesome!
@@stampede274 if this was true, I would definitely of expected Morgott to name Mesmer among the “traitors” also, Mesmer doesn’t seem to have been branded as anything. Mesmer isn’t known or mentioned by anyone outside the land of shadow, it’s more likes he’s been hidden away by Marika.
@@donovan4222 or he's simply released from his prison after Messmer had already been sent away. Also, even if Morgott knew of Messmer, there's no way he would name him a traitor when Messmer obediently went to a crusade he would never return from as per ordered by Marika herself. The guy didn't even have great rune to begin with (which further show that he's sent away before the shattering) so he has no right to be a lord (not that he'd want to either).
You had me at “barnacle shit”lol
Glad you liked it 😂💚
Love your vids! Keep it up!!!
I genuinely mean it when I say thank you so much, this honestly means the world to me 💚🦎
Need to have this vid blow up!!! Amazing lore descriptions lad!
Thanks so much, you don’t know how much this means to me 💚
Its definitely a Elsa n Anna type situation with messmer and Melina
Lmaooooo see where you’re coming from 😂
0:55 i got so excited to subscribe that I pressed the subscribe button twice.
Cheers man 🙏
If you look at the pattern on the Godslayer Sword it looks verry similar with some spiral patterns in Inir-Elim, not to say that the sword itself is a spiral.
My theory is that the Gloam-Eyed Queen is not Melina, but her power, or her godlslaying flame was sealed inside her, probably her eye, similar to how Marika sealed Mesmers serpent with an eye-seal.
So when we chose the frenzied flame ending, since there is no more Greater Will or grace the seal is broken, the power of the Gloam-Eyed queen activates within her, vowing to deliver the Tarnished destined death.
So who was the Gloam-Eyed Queen? She was the Empyrean of the Hornsent, she was above the Gods, since she wielded the power to slay one. I guess the hornsent had a belief system centered around obtaining Godhood or Sainthood, and somehow the Gloam-Eyed queen would oversee and arbitrer this process, so that the ascended Gods do not become corupted and inflict malice upon the world.
This is amazing! I am such a fan of this theory! The final part makes so much more sense than you might think! The hornsent are fans of natural order, destined death is literal natural selection!!
@theemeraldgecko310 This is the only explanation for the item descriptions to make logical sense because we know that Marika ordered Maliketh to slay the Gloam-Eyed Queen, so why do that if it was her own daughter? And we know Melina is fiercely loyal to the Erdtree and Marika since throughout the game all she does is her duty as a Finger Maiden, and if we chose the Frenzied Flame ending she vows to kill us. So the only way this makes sense is that the power of the gloam-eyed queen is sealed within her eye.
@@alexgeorgescu2122 We actually see a Hornsent empyrean in the DLC, remember the Hornsent Grandam? I think she is the best candidate for being the gloam eyed queen. She keeps talking about Marika’s “betrayal” and calls her a “strumpet” which is an old English word for a prostitute basically.
@alexgeorgescu2122 amazing stuff! Thank you for bringing all of this to my attention means a lot!
To add on, I think the bird symbol on melinas eye is significant if she is the geq. Messmers eye is infested by the base serpent god influence. Melinas eye the twinbird, the mother of deathbirds. I think the snake and bird juxtaposition is interesting, especially considering the presence of the rot god within malenias eyes eventually. It's almost as if in marikas offspring, the old former outer gods of old times can manifest and take root.
The formless mother manifests and shows it self to mogh in some capacity as well.
Interesting! I hadn’t thought of it like this, but I’m a massive fan!! Awesome stuff!!
Has anyone else noticed that the woman in the haligtree Melania arena looks just like st Trina. So maybe it's my headcannon but I feel like Trina went to the haligree area, grew into the tree and began to grow miquellas adult body to put his plans into motion for the dlc
I actually love this theory! Awesome stuff, it really does look like her!
Arent Miquella and saint trina the same persone?
@keinplan2610 it seems like they might be fused like Marika and radagon were, two separate people with different motives :)
What if the "outburst" you spoke about was Messmer's reaction to Marika asking him to go on the crusade? The fact that he accidentally killed his own sister probably drove him to agree to be the one to take the blame and follow his mother's orders out of guilt for what he did. He saw himself as the villain, so he became that villain.
love the quote “pink is a lighter shade of red if you deid not knew”
Glad you liked it 😂
"it's a light-ish Red" 😂
Great vid mate. We’re here for the wild speculative and fun interpretations of the lore. You deliver.
Who do you think is the figure we see burning during the crusade in the trailer of the DLC? I don’t know if people have figured this out yet.
Cheers!
Thanks so much Oscar!!!
Honestly my theory ages ago was that was the gloam eyed queen, though I’m not sure now! There was just something with the spiral weapon that seemed so gloamy lol
@@theemeraldgecko310 yeah I thought the same. Maybe it was Melina who knows. But yeah, I thought someone would have figured this out by now. I’m not that good at finding shit so of course I wasn’t going to find it my play through. The DLC was fun though. Keep pumping out great content man. 🔥
@OscarTheStrategist you’re amazing at this stuff dude, you’re comments past and present are proof of that! Thanks once more for the lovely comment!
I think that's meant to be Romina, Saint of the Bud. The weapon she's holding looks similar to the Poleblade of the Bud, and its description pretty much describes what we see in that trailer:
"Once, in the crumbling, burning church, Romina held the bud in speechless silence.
That bud would become her blade."
@@Solibrae thanks for pointing this out! It was bugging me, but yes this makes sense.
Of course I killed this person and didn’t even look twice at the item description. Good eye!
I wish we also got a glintstone butterfly to shed light on why Ranni is an Empyrean. Since there is no such thing I may start thinking she's a jar saint
Deleted my original comment because I completed misread this lmao
Totally get where you’re coming from it really is weird! But probably also intentional!
Dang I went with her in my first play through and totally forgot she doesn’t have a butterfly. I wonder why
@@Wonderbread91 Ranni isn't cursed like Malenia, Miquella, Messmer and Melina. I don't think the butterflies are an empyrean thing, I think its a "born of one god asexually" thing
@@theemeraldgecko310 There is a theory going around about that.
The theory says that the butterflies are a bioproduct of the strange relationship between radagon and Marika because theyre the same body so when in some way messmer was born from marika and radagon almost incestuos relationship the butterfly derived from that action, the same with melina etc etc, is like when in nuclear reactors you divide the same atom into two part and it creates energy, the atom is the body divided in marika and radagon the energy produced is the son in this example messmer and the radioactive waste are the butterflies
We get glintstone fireflies so close enough
I like this theory, as it presents a reasonable alternative to the story. Although, there are two main problems with it:
1) We know from the item descriptions of godskin and Blackflame items, that the GEQ was felled in battle by Maliketh, who wielded the rune of death as his blade, in response to the threat of her Godskin Apostasy. It would make sense that her body was destroyed by destined death, and that her soul managed to survive given her familiarity with destined death, and fire in general.
2) The Erdtree has been burned before. It’s likely that it burned when it was called the Great Tree in the age of the crucible, and would explain why there are ashes all around the elevator leading to the forbidden lands. The exact time period where this occurred is not clear at all, and while Messmer could still have been the one to burn it, it wouldn’t make sense for Melina to be there.
finally some lore about something other then femboy Miquella
I get what you're saying! Saying that though I get why so much has been around the femboy miquallestor but there is honestly so much lore in this DLC!!!
Miquella the Molester
I guess you haven’t seen the videos of Abyssal woods
Don't disrespect my glorious king, Kindly Miquella, like that again. Filthy tarnished.
@@ShonenGoon*Kills Promised Consort & femboy*
Maybe i'm wrong here, but the way Melina seems to "harness" the flames from the giants forge is a huge indicator to how Messmer "accidentally" killed her. It seems to me that they might have tried to work together and combine powers to destroy the eardtree but inso doing she essentially self immolated with the help of her brother. This would, in my mind, be also plenty of explanation as to why he was banished to the shadow realm.
the gloam eyed queen is an outer god, and Melina is an empty vessel who becomes the gloam-eyed queen. Just to add to your theory
This really does add to the theory! Going off this you could also make the argument that maybe the base serpent is too...
@theemeraldgecko310 I only suggest this because each of her kids has some sort of affliction. And who else would the gods call a queen, if she didn't have death at their Finger tips
Wow... I just notice Melina hands was shaking when burning herself at the beginning. 😮😮
Wait were they!? I completely missed that!
@@theemeraldgecko310 It's so subtle, but yeah it was shaking.
@saluki904 god damn! Amazing find!
My theory is that melina and messmir are the same person, same as st. Trina and Miquola are the same, and radagon and merika are the same.
My theory is that, similarly to st. Trina, she is a part of messmir that he cast off himself. This part being his feeling of hate and betrayal, but also his love for his mother.
He seems numb and kind of juat like a robot. It would make sense that he had to cast her off of him to continue the fight against the hornsent rather than have those feelings boil over and have him turn against his mother.
I really like this theory! I do think he does have some semblance of love and emotion though, he does seem so tired in the boss fight!
This could also explain why Melina seems to have a case of good old Amnesia!!
But Saint Trina and "Miquella" are not the same person. And that's been confirmed as well. St Trina is just a part of Miquella that was abandoned. St Trina isn't a person. It's the "nice" part of Miquella. It's his loving side!!
@@insanifiableso they aren't the same person but they are the same person
Trina clearly acts of her own volition when separated and so did Radagon
@insanifiable to add onto this, St. Trina and radagon both represent something that each wants but can't obtain.
For St. Trina is the most obvious. Miquellas childish need for love and affect while only being able to attain it through his rune. Something that St. Trina seemingly has no issue with.
Radagon is trickier, too, pinpoint. I would say radagon is merikas rage for the destruction of her people, but also the love of her people. The last part of her keeping her human.
We see merika not fully abandon radagon, which is what brought about her shattering the elden ring, her wanting a family, and her cursing them.
The reason why radagon is holding onto the elden ring is that he is terrified his children will die from the greater wills rage. Terrified that it would not send an emissary but distruction for the lands between and all his children.
It can't be because we killed Messmer and if we kill one of them then the other half is dead too like Miquela and St. Trina
I've been consuming videos of ER lore and finding channels to watch and got to you. I really like how you present things about the lore so thanks for that. One thing that i can't seem to get and find is videos about Marika offspring(hope you do a video about that)....And what a mean is their order of birth and interactions between them. Who came first??Morgot,Mohg and Godwyn or Melania&Miquella??
Thanks so much this really means the world to me! To me it’s always seemed like Messmer/ maybe Melina, then morgott and mohg, then Godwyn, then Melania and Miquella :)
@@theemeraldgecko310 I think that is about right. Having omen twins after killing off so many hornsent seems like a twist of revenge on Marika for the crusade.
No. Messmer IS Melina!
I actually really like the theory, HEAD CANNON HERE WE GOOOOOOOOOO
has about as much hard evidence as this whole video...
@@GVQuadrathere is very good evidence that this is a video
No there is an item that say messmer share a vision of fire with his sister melina is the sister thats all
Yeah I thought so too
I never thought messmer killed Melina I just saw her being burned and bodiless being her curse since all of her full siblings also have a curse inflicted on them. Plus if she is the gloam eyed queen the lore says she is defeated by maliketh but I’m not sure if it says he kills her in the fight or not.
It definitely could be that! That’s the interesting part, it only says defeated not killed!
The Gloam Eyed Queen was defeated by Malikith, so i can see Messmer killing her, cause it doesn't say anywhere Malikith killed her, he only defeated her
My thoughts exactly! It’s such a little line that holds so much weight
We have the confirmation they're brother and sister at least, don't know if they're twins or not but probably they're not as we can see a statue of Marika holding just one baby in Messmer's chamber in the Shadow Keep. Also, I think they're Godfrey's children as we can find Talisman of Lord's Bestowal with Godfrey's image in the Shadow Keep too.
As for Melina, I think she burned the first tree, since the erdtree we see in the base game is just a spectral tree and we can see ashes in some parts of Leyndell (even before we go to the mountaintops). Maybe, I'm just speculating here, it was Marika who ordered Melina, as she's the less loved child, the tree burnt to rebirth the erdtree just as she wanted it to be and then started war against giants to ensure "her tree" won't be burned. Also she banishes Messmer to the land of shadows not only to take revenge on the hornsents but because he's the only one left who could burn the tree for himself.
While I love all the lore revelations in the DLC, I am very confused about the timeline…I get the impression that Mesmer and the shadow lands have been sealed away for a very long time…given that no one mentions Mesmer in the lands between and there’s very little evidence he was ever even there.
But then they revealed that Mesmer knew Radahn like a brother, knows who the tarnished are, and was apparently approved of by Rennala/Rellana when he went on his crusade…all that seems to imply Mesmer was around at least until after the Liurnian wars…so how is that possible? Makes my brain spin
Well from some tries of making the timeline make sense:
1. Mesmer and Gaius is older than Radahn. Mesmer has radagons red hair. This implies that he is a child of Radagon/Marika from before both Radagons marriage to Rennalla and Marikas Marriage to Godfrey or that Radagons genes can be inherited by a child of Marika and Godfrey which might not be impossible given the weirdness around Radagon/Marika.
2. Since Radahn knew Mesmer then Mesmers crusade happened after the end of the liurnian wars and the marriage between Radagon and Renalla.
3. We know from the offical story of the conquests that both Liurnia and the ancient dragons managed to get peace agreements and alliances everyone else offically got conquered. The final war/conquest of Godfreys host was the fire giants and after that Marika disbanded that army by banishing the original tarnished.
4. For some reason Mesmers penal legion was sent instead of Godfreys army to exterminate the hornsent. It could be because that war or maybe it was a civil war happened after the banishment of Godfrey since after Godfreys banishment the crucible knights and the crucible lost their place in erdtree culture, this could have been the event where it happened. It could instead have been so that Godfrey refused to massacre the hornsent since the land of shadow could have been his homeland since the crucible incantations and the divine beast incantations like the feather ones seem closely linked.
5. I think the reason that so little is known about Mesmer is in large due to Rykard. Rykards vulcano manor is on the surface a beautifull manor to be a guest at but the walls hide secret passages leading to vast prison complexes full of torture victims. Some speculate that this torture kidnapping of guests was the beginning of Rykards betrayal of the Erdtree but I think he did it for the Erdtree. Rykards job in my opinion was to find and torture information out of potential heretics and traitors to the erdtree. So Rykard tracked down and destroyed heretical beliefs but he was therefore exposed to them that is why he knew the most about serpent magic and lore. He covered it up leaving only scant few relics like the serpent sacrifice curved sword or the formless serpent assassin bow outside his personal controll.
6. there we have a theory of the censure of Mesmer, all serpent magic knowledge was destroyed by Rykards inquisition and the serpent was turned into a symbol of despicable enemies of the erdtree in colloseum fights symbolised by the gladiators with serpent armor that were "the bad guys" against other gladiators. Might have been easy for the arena institution who was aligned with godfreys brutal martial ways to decide to paint Mesmer as a villain if Godfrey was sympathetic to the hornsent that Mesmer killed.
Hope this wall of text isn't unwelcome I felt inspired to see if I could make the timeline make sense for myself and answer your question at the same time.
@@simonwahlen7150 Not unwelcome at all those were all good points and cleared up a lot. I never thought of the idea that Godfrey would want to leave because of what happened in the shadowlands, or maybe he was banished for disagreeing with Marika? Either way that makes sense.
Marika basically sacrificed a bunch of people to attain godhood at the divine gate, joined with Godfrey to conquer the lands between, then after that was done wanted to go back to her original sin and cover it up, as well as get revenge on her original enemies…Godfrey refused/disagreed, him and the tarnished got banished…so she chose Messmer instead, and sealed him in the shown lands.
That also explains why Mesmer would be so surprised to see tarnished, because when he left the lands between the tarnished had just been banished…he didn’t know they would return/had returned.
Well. Melina obviously was killed in flesh but not spirit. Which suggests whoever had done it, had the power to give Death. Even if it is only a partial Death.
Ranni had to perform a complex exchange to get the same. Where while Godwyn was killed in Spirit only, she was killed in Flesh only.
This suggests something had to have happened to allow that outcome. So however it occurred it is related to Death. Not just fire I suspect. Though I suppose it could be that the Dark Fire of Messmer could perhaps have some property that allows it to reduce flesh to something basic and inert.
That was my sort of pet theory! Twins seem to have similar yet different powers, maybe he rune of death powers of Melina/The gloam eyed queen, is present in some similar god slaying way in Messmers flame, I mean they do look similar don’t they?
Melina obviously has a GEQ connection, but there are two things that get overlooked that I find substantial
1) the godskin nobles/apostates (the children? of the gloam eyed Queen) have serpent features
2) Melina wears the same traveling maiden clothes as Millicent who we know is an “offshoot” of Malenia, and Millicent and Gowry call Malenia Millicent’s mother. So Melina’s “mother” could be the GEQ or whoever she is an “offshoot” of. Malenia and Millicent both also seem to have spawned with a purpose that they don’t know everything about.
She's pretty much daughter of Marika man
@@dev4159 probably, just bringing up additional context about her that can help us learn more about her
Interesting stuff! I’m 100% convinced to be honest that Melina is the GEQ or related to them, this just adds onto that!
I kinda connected the dots when I got to Shaman Village and got the Minor Erdtree incantation, since that's Marika's home and Melina uses that same incantation when she helps you fight Morgott
Also apparently the in game files nickname her Marika’s daughter!!
If Melina is the gloamed eyed queen than she was beaten and burned by Maliketh tells us the story.
But it doesn’t directly say that is what happened?
@@theemeraldgecko310 It kinda does, the Gloam Eyed Queen was defeated by Maliketh under Marika's order(i don't remember in which items, but it is there), and then Melina was given purpose by her own mother even tho she was burned and bodyless... when Marika disappeared cause of what we know happened, Melina decided to find a new purpose.
Either she was burned by Maliketh or her body got sealed away when the rune was, which could explain why in the Frenzied Flame ending she actually walks to the whistle instead of simply appearing from thin air.
Messmer was seen as a threat by Marika, and likely that was the same with Melina(Gloam Eyed Queen) as she literally embodied Destined Death(Messmer's Kindling says his younger sister also bore a vision of fire, and most likely in her case, it was the black fire of Destined Death)
@@marcussawyer4751 more likely that she'd already burned something else but couldn't finish the job imo
@@theemeraldgecko310 It was in an item description
Messmer says that the abyssal serpent was shorn of grace, meaning it previously had it. if melina is the gloam-eyes queen, in charge of destined death, then that sets up messmer to have been the bearer of a holy serpent. perhaps after marika had to seal away destined death, she scorned the serpent and took its light
If miquella inside the cocoon, then why he abandoned his flesh in the shadowland?
And why he's riding in Torrent in one of the official art? How Melina get Torrent then? Why Messmer and Melina didn't have a "Shadow"?
I’m thinking card, it has something to do with the four arms in the boss fight, we only see two in the cocoon…
Smouldering butterflies have to be Melina's butterfly. Melina may have sacrificed her body as kindling previously, or she rebelled against Marika and had Messmer kill her (but the capital has plenty of ash in it before we burn the erdtree, so there was a prior burning that could have just been from the dragon's attack, or maybe something else happened). And she said her mother gave her a task at the Erdtree. His kindling references her "Messmer, much like his younger sister, bore a vision of fire." And they are both kindling - Messmer had an abyssal serpent behind his eye, and Melina's hides destined death. Her weapon description has: "...retaining the power of its former owner, the kindling maiden, is still apparent. The one who walks alongside flame, Shall one day meet the road of Destined Death." She also has the spell that we get from Marika's village (Shaman Villiage) in SotE. It's pretty certain she's Marika's child, and most likely the one referred to as Messmer's sister. Exactly what led her body to be burned is still open, I think.
The man averages 10-60,000 views per video, but only 5,660 subs. HIT THE SUBSCRIBE BUTTON. IT TAKES 1 SECOND 🤓
Thanks so much this honestly means the world dude 🦎🐍
@@theemeraldgecko310 No problem my friend. Please keep up the great work 👍
@Treznor331 thank you truly means so much to me! Will do!
I love the deep div into the identities of these two amazing characters; you did such a great job with your analysis. I don't think that Melina and Mesmer were twins at birth (there's an item description that heavily implies Melina is the younger sister), but I 100% agree that they are twins in nature.
Once again, great job on the video! You earned my subscription, and I can't wait to see more of your lore videos.
Honestly could definitely see this being the case, I just sort of thought of it how in our world we call twins younger or older based on the timeframe they are born, but you’re idea is probably more on point!
Thanks so much really means the world!!
FIRST!
CONFIRMED 100000000%
I note also that it seems Messmer and his army were already reviled even before the war started. This might just be because everyone knew they were off to commit genocide, or it might be because he had already done something awful, like burn his sister to death trying to destroy the Erdtree or something like that.
I think it's also very possible that Melina was in on it. My initial thought playing the DLC was that she saw how Messmer was treated and then became a rebel herself. But it could be that the whole business was already done by then, and that the two siblings were in on it together but their attempted coup failed and Melina ended up dead.
Interesting! Maybe it was un justified hatred? Maybe the accidental burning was portrayed as a premeditated action?
I really like all of these points, awesome stuff dude!
pink is made with red and white, red and yelow makes orange
But isn’t Marika’s hair a whitish blonde?
Keep up the good work, your videos are really good !
Thank so much! This really means the world!!!
As messmer also, melina changes appearance during the frenzied flame ending
Her hair turn black and the left Eye Is White.
As messmer, the GEQ could be sealed inside her left Eye and, once defeated by Marika, used as a last resort against the worst ending possible
I love these theories! Awesome stuff!
@@theemeraldgecko310 this DLC re-opened my elden ring pandora's box
@ironiccaesar178 god tell me about it, it’s all unleashed in my head and it won’t go back in
@@theemeraldgecko310 im putting something up here and there by linking some dots like:
- the divine Bird ornis ashes tell us he tamed the divine Bird, this could be a reference to the twin kite Bird (y know the shield) since hornsent and death rituals are so close
- the ancestral followers could be a society that comes from the hornsent culture (in various areas of the hornsent upgraded versions of the horned talismans can be found)
- Godwyn Will never be resurrected since its stated that his knights are waiting for the Age of the duskborn
- Marika could be actually a correct result of the sainthood ritual in the jars and Radagon a part of the innards inside that jar, also Marika could have betrayed the hornsent at some point otherwise how could She ascend to the divine tower? Did She Need a consort ti ascend? Maybe radagon was there all along and this could justify messmer and melina presence as the eldest of the demigods. Also, during this period the fingers could have started to act choosing both the GEQ and Marika
- Enir Is full of the Marika's arc/ braids iconography, so maybe they warshipped her at some point.
- Torrent surely originates from the Land of Shadow as the spirt ashes tecnique.
- Midra could be a sort of scholar Who, After meeting nanaya, started studying about the frenzied flame. Since this Is capable of killing the Spirit, the hornsent banned this practice and impaled Midra and his fellows. Nanaya told him to endure the pain and the suffering, for sure she's an agent of the frenzied flame, maybe shabriri?
I don’t know bois. Godskins have a serpentine feature and abilities to them, they fight like snakes. If anything, I think the abyssal serpent inside Messmers eye is the sealed version of the Gloam Eyed Queen or at least a portion of her power.
They do have serpentine features, but snakes also pop up on the coffin like ships that are crashed, which im thinking are the shamans... maybe snakes are just something very much linked to the shaman/numens home land? And that has transferred to Marika's first borns?
@@theemeraldgecko310 I don’t know. Rykard feeding himself to a serpent in that case is a case of irony that Marika probably felt very embarrassed about. My question is, how exactly are these Numens travelling via coffins across some vast ocean. Almost sounds like they were bunched up into coffins and then cast away, cause whatever land they were on before, the people over there didn’t want them.
Maybe Mesmer burned the Erdtree alongside Melina? Because the fact that burning the Erdtree is a cardinal sin, implies it has been done before and might explain why Mesmer was "banished".
Interesting ideas! Honestly love this idea! My Head cannon is fixated on this firmly lmao
@@theemeraldgecko310 yeah i really liked that you pointed out the burn marks on the shaft of the Erdtree, really made me feel good about my theory xD
@Beancrocs was it you who first mentioned it like 6 months ago? It was such an amazing point! The burn marks really are an overlooked aspect!
@@theemeraldgecko310 ahh no it wasn’t me, i could never have seen that haha!
I remember seeing on a youtube video someone speculate: “The Erdtree must’ve been burnt before because it’s a cardinal sin and that implies it’s happened before.”
And that really stuck with me, loved that theory, and i have lived by that ever since. Then yesterday I watch your video and it makes even more sense, that mesmer probably did it and maybe him having a snake (snake=bad in elden ring) might be securing the idea that maybe he was behind one of the burnings. Maybe even the first burning!
I love to speculate, and i’ll for sure keep watching your videos, you make very good speculations!!
And OFCOURSE the whole thing about mesmer and melina being twins, makes total sense. It’s a tragedy what happened to melina but the elden lore is only tragedies so it makes sense 😂
Melina is the erdtree, which is why when she burned the erdtree burn. She was the spark that gave us tarnished life. She was with us when we awoke.
I’ve never heard this take but honestly, even if it turns out to not be true, im a massive fan!
I literally thought this theory up as well and discussed it with other people and they think it makes sense a little bit. But they still think she’s the Gloam Eyed Queen, which wouldn’t make sense because Maliketh killed the Gloam Eyed Queen, and I don’t think Marika would ever want to harm her own children.
Good video. Just a thought, when we first arrive in Leyndell you will see ash in many places. Also most of the houses are boarded up with melted wax. This is to prevent the airborne ash from seeping indoors. So this kinda indicates that the Erdtree was burned before using the fire giant's flame. Who did it or if Melina lost her body from this time is still unclear, but i do think Messmer wasnt involved in this initial burning. i could be wrong. This was discussed by Smoughtown and Tarnished Archeologist in earlier videos. Still a good video 😊
Thank you so much! This is super interesting, I am just wondering though, if they’ve sealed their houses how are they getting in lol? I can definitely imagine that’s why their sealed but maybe the throne room scorch marks are from a different instance? Could be reaching to be fair!
Thank you!
what if melina was born with destined death and marika had to get rid of death itself? she sent messmer to kill her and take the rune of death from her. melina only opens her left eye after the frenzied flame ending takes place. could it be because after killing maliketh the rune of death went back to her? just food for thought
And I absolutely love this food for thought, great points and thoughts dude!
It would also make sense if messmer was asked to kill her flesh, doing so brought out his curse and he was banished for it, but it was all part of Melinas plan to overthrow the golden order. Messmer realizing too late he'd been betrayed by her.
Im intrigued, she certainly is the most mysterious character now
She really really is!!
So a few ideas. Something that might lend weight to Melina being the GEQ who was once in the possession of the rune of death is the fact that the various great runes held by the other demigods nearly all have been affected by their host, the only exceptions being the anchor ring held by Godrick who beyond his grafting was not notable in any real way and the Rune of the Unborn contained within the amber egg of Rennala who technically was not a host. Meanwhile Radahns, Rykards, Melanias, Miquellas, Morgotts, and Mohgs have all been affected, and how likely could it actually be that they all just happened to have runes that already inherently had aspects similar to them? Not very I think. So should we assume the Rune of Death is different? Could the Rune of Death, removed from the Elden Ring long before the Shattering, have been affected by whoever was it's host? Do we dare assume that the Flame of Destined Death, capable of killing gods, was the original shape that death took when it manifested in the world?
Or could it be that Melina, born with an Iris of Grace and Iris of Occultation, which would later be mimicked by priests of the Erdtree and followers of Messmer during his crusade against the Hornsent as an homage to his twin sister who he was separated from, was the original host of the Rune of Death? Could it be her twin brothers banishment that fueled her rage against the rest of her family, prompting her to bestow her black flame of Destined Death on her lineage of pale offspring who possessed snake-like qualities, similar to their uncle who's unbound form bore pale snakes of his own? Could this threat to the Golden Order, which successfully killed multiple demigods, who were decapitated, names and faces forgotten to history, disowned as demigods and now entombed in walking mausoleums, be allowed to persist? Obviously not, so Marika had no choice but to send her most capable warrior, Maliketh, to defeat Melina, who's body was consumed in her own flame but didn't fully die, for the flame of death was her very own power. Maliketh then sealed the rune in his own blade, taking on its current red tinge, and then was sent to Farem Azula beyond time to keep it away from all others who might think to use it for similar intent. Marika, shaman and master schemer that she is, then summoned the spirit of Melina within the Erdtree and sealed both her memories as well as her Occult Eye which would immediately betray her true identity, and then instructed the spirit of Melina to await further command, who as a spirit could only obey her mother and caller. Said command came during the Shattering, when Melina was then sent away to complete her purpose.
Then, in the frenzied flame ending, with the erdtree destroyed and the grace of gold removed from the world, her Iris of Grace faded away, the tint of her lineage gone and the seal held in place on her left eye no longer sustained by Marika's power could open once more, leaving only the form of the Gloam-Eyed Queen, reborn from the connection she still had to now unbound Destined Death.
TL:DR Melina is the GEQ and she waged war on her mother and family because Messmer had been banished and removed from history.
The only problem i will point out is the fact that it is said in game that Malakeith is the one who kills the Gloam Eyed Queen before the rune of destined death is sealed. It is possible for Melina to be the gloam eyed queen and still fit the timeline she wears the same jewelry as the godskins plus what she says about destined death at the end of the frenzied flame ending there's a good video theory by another that explains this more in depth but the correlation is definitely there
pausing the video to comment this so you might go on to say this, but where I'm at you're talking about the possibility that Messmer accidentally "scorched" the gate of the Erdtree and at the same time burned Melina. However, i remember watching a video from another creator (I apologize as I'm not sure who right now) talking about how Leyndell is already covered in a SIGNIFICANT amount of ash when we get there - when we burn the Erdtree ourselves with Melina's spirit as kindling, it adds tons more. I think there's a pretty good chance that Messmer actually fully burned the Erdtree in the past, which would also explain why the tree is spectral rather than physical, at least until you are specifically at the gate - which again, looks burned. When Messmer burned the Erdtree long ago, he burned Melina's physical form as well the physical form of the Erdtree. Then, we later burn both Melina's spirit and also the "spiritual/spectral" version of the Erdtree. This could also connect with him having "fled" the Erdtree as described by another thing in game (I believe the spirit ashes of a black knight? andreas maybe?) and why the serpent is considered a traitor to the Erdtree. Just my thoughts! :)
THIS IS SO AMAZING!?! Maybe this was the accidental burning I mentioned in the video? Amazing stuff dude, this is AMAZING
Tarnished Archaeologist has a video on this, where he theorizes Melina has burned the Erdtree once before the story.
@baileyalbrecht7617 interesting! I’ll have a listen!!
Bernahl' maiden burned the erdtree prior. Bernahl has connections against maliketh as well (drops the blasph claw) which aligns with Melina.
Nice idea. One thing: I don't think the Melina we see at grace points is really what she looked like before. When we summon her to fight Morgott, her hair seems to me to be much darker. The red effect applied to summons makes it hard to tell, but I think the color of her hair at grace points would look lighter with that effect. To my eyes, it even seems redder than just the effect alone would do, but maybe my saturation is too high or I'm delusional. Anyway, I'm wondering if maybe we summon the Melina from before she was burned and she actually did have proper red hair? I saw a post saying that the Morgott fight is the only time we "see her in the flesh". If that's true then it must be her from the past when she had flesh, no?
I think you're onto something, but it's heavily implied that Melina is Messmer's younger sister in the description of one of the items he drops. I find it unlikely they are twins like Miquella and Malenia.
Totally get what you’re saying! I interpreted it as her being the younger of the twins! Though you’re thoughts are probably more likely!
Well, thanks to the Acolyte, I can imagine a sibling accidentally trying to burn the other on purpose...
The power of one! The power of two! The power of manyyyyyy
I think it is interesting that Melina says she was born at the foot of the erdtree and we find the scorch marks you pointed out there at the foot. Maybe by being born she means into the spectral form she now inhabits, that made me wonder! I also think that messmer is the base serpent; in the trailer marina removes the threads from the snakes right eye; messmers second form in battle has a different color scheme for the snakes, they are pale like the snake in the trailer, the eye she removes the gold threads from is on the same side as the eye messmer removes. So I’m wondering what his role in her ascension to godhood was, and whether or not the ‘betrayal’ that is spoken of in the dlc was marika betraying her own son? Lots of interesting stuff! Keep up the speculation, really enjoy these :)
I’m glad you liked it dude! That is a really interesting shout, I hadn’t noticed that!! Thank you so much, that really means the world to me❤️
Knowing GRRM too well, Melina and Messmer are definitely tragic accursed twins) However, there are a few things to be addressed, that I'm not sure make sense.
We know from the incantation descriptions the god-killing flame was a thing long ago, and now, black flame is just a pathetic part of it. It references us to the Gloam-eyed queen being defeated by Maliketh. Has it occurred before Messmer and Melina were even born? Because they inherited different parts of the flame, exemplified by colours. Or is Messmer's flame completely something else, of Outer God origin? They just confuse us with the symbolism of four different flames.
We have hints that Melina as a maiden was: rebirthed from the Rune of Unborn, held captive for some time, lost much of her memory and was given a role in Marika's grand escape plan - to serve as a kindling to burn the Erdtree. But if so, why the hell Marika would rebirth this Melina with a gloam-eye, making her potentially her rival? Why did this eye occur in the first place? And why not ask for Messmer's flame instead, if he's known to be devoted to her, despite her abandoning him?
And lastly, there are quite a few factions interested in god-slaying business, but the one who actually succeeded in it was Messmer, right? Why then, it's never mentioned anywhere in the base game? Especially, with Nox, Godskin apostles, Blackkinfe assassins... If there was a precedent of an empyrian (Melina) being killed, it should and would have been used by everyone interested.
Nothing, absolutely NOTHING in both the base game and the DLC implies Messmer has anything to do with Melina's death. Brother and sister? Absolutely. By a deferent parent then the other children of Marika? Almost certainly. Fratricide? Pulled out of the left field. Any "evidence" as presented is purely interpretative and circumstantial.
Totally get where you’re coming from! This was just my theory based on what evidence we do have :)
This is why I felt like we should have had another huge lore drop boss instead of the putrescent knight or commander gaius.
That would have been nice to be fair!
I like this theory and feels it has good weight.
My competing theory relates back to Marika and the state of her and her motivations. We see Marika’s body hanging, then fall from, the broken Elden Ring. But for someone so afraid of death, and who has turned from the path of divinity in a way, what do we know of her soul/spirit? Melina is bodyless, created in the Erdtree and now exists as a spirit. Miquella divested himself of his body to ascend godhood. Ranni divested her body to escape the control of the Greater Will. Did Marika pull a Ranni/Miquella to divest herself of her body, and ultimately through the tarnished, free herself from the shackles of Divinity? What might that look like? Divesting her body and Radagon’s aspect to become Melina, free to travel once more and guide the tarnished, could be the answer.
I’m not sure why theorizing about the family fighting each other is so prevalent. Especially when Marika had an entire regime of Hornsent & their crucible to exact retribution upon. Melina, the Gloam-Eyed Queen, brought death to Marika’s enemies. After they were dead the rune of death was sealed willingly. Or Melina burned the ancient Erdtree physical tree from the age of plenty. Marika’s golden Erdtree rose from the ashes.
I do get what you mean! If you’re referring to the theory in this video, I more meant I thought it might have been an accidental burning of Melina! That’s actually a really interesting idea! Love it!
@@theemeraldgecko310 Marika crafted the history. I think the Gloam-Eyed Queen was a moniker created to give Destine Death a form Queen Marika could overcome. The Golden Order of Queen Marika removed the rune of death but really it was just Melina following her mothers order and killing her enemies or the Hornsent. Melina's body was burned I don't think it was Messmer. Reasonable assumption to think both were still on the board for Marika to use as pawns until after Godfrey was Exiled. If -Queen Marika felt that Messmer's fire & curse needed to be hidden. Then she may have had a hand in how Melina's body was burned. Either purposefully to achieve something tangible or as a result of sealing the rune of death in Malikath's blade.
I have a theory that Melina also has "another self" that was sealed away. I think she isn't the Gloam Eyed Queen but the Gloam Eyed Princess, where she was able to disappear by killing her body, but not her soul.
Unrelated but based on the Beast Claws fighting animation and the whole "Bear communion" thing with Highland Warriors. I can't help but wonder if Godfrey prior to being Elden Lord was a Highland Warrior. The Hourah Loux phase just really jumps out to me when I see this culture of bear handed bear fighters. The Glorified set actually in some ways reminds me the Elden Lord armor and it explains why Hourah Loux removes it and then scratches himself to draw blood. He was putting the glorified red of a bear fighter back on. At least that's my theory.
Something that can also count is the relationship with snakes. After all, the godskin nobles and apostles, followers of the gloan eyed queen, have some serpent aspects, because she wrapped them in a type of cloak for that purpose.
You make some great points! I hadn’t considered this but I think you’re completely right!
The "fragment" of description being removed was just a troll. It was never changed.
Yeah! That was a super huge mistake on my part I’m very sorry!
For some reason it took world by storm, be easy on yourself :D
@kuba6344 if you’re sure! I just feel really bad
before even watching the video, ill edit this if im convinced otherwise but uhhhhh its pretty clear Malina is the gloamed-eye queen and in some item descriptions it was said Maliketh was the one to defeat her and her army with his black blade since the gloamed-eyed queen had the power to rival marika, which she didnt take lightly
Hey I know this is late but just a heads up, Melina’s hair isn’t pink it’s actually brown. The lighting in elden ring makes it appear pink. You can see this yourself by making a lighter brown hair character and going to the areas you see Melina in game(leyndell) if you get summoned as a yellow it appears pink too.
I don't think that Messmer killed Melina. Going into Leyndell you see ash piles everywhere. Then after we burn the tree, the ash is piled high. I'm pretty sure Melina has already fulfilled her role as kindle maiden once before, got her erdtree burial, and was resurrected to do it again at the time of the Shattering. Messmer was most likely sent away because he also had fire and Marika was not only scared of the flames but the serpent inside of him.
What if Melina is the Gloam-Eyed Queen, afflicted like Messmer with this other being in her.
What if she’s burned and bodiless because Markia had to kill her flesh to expel or seal the Gloam-Eyed aspect of Melina?
Just a thought.
I really like this thought! Awesome theory dude!!
@@theemeraldgecko310 I hadn’t been sold on the connection until we got Messmer. The fact that he harbors the Base Serpent (some kind of deathly separate entity) and Malenia harbors the outer being of Scarlet Rot, it stands to reason that Melina, being Messmer little sister, also born of Marika and Radagon, was afflicted with a black flame. And perhaps she rose against her mother in that alternate form.
Wildly fun stuff to speculate.
I'd like to think that Melina is actually a discarded part of Messmer left in the lands between just before Messmer went on a crusade for her mother Marika in the DLC somewhat like his other half just the same as Marika and Radagon to Miquella and St. Trina since we don't really know much about her right until the dlc that she has a connection with Messmer. I could be wrong since she has this gloam eye queen with her.
Black fire knights drop smoldering butterflys i thought that was pretty interesting
It just dropped for me when farming in divine tower of caelid
Wait really? That’s interesting! Melina here we come lmao
They didn't remove the reference to Messmer's sister. They added it.
I’m really sorry I only found out about the truth of this after uploading this video!