Revisiting “In Defense of Sakura” with a bit more consideration
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 25 авг 2024
- ✦IN DEFENSE OF SAKURA✦
• In defense of Sakura (...
Thanks for watching! Let me know what you think, and please like/subscribe if you want!
✦ABOUT ME✦
he/him
• Video
#LE_SSERAFIM #르세라핌 #LE_SSERAFIM_EASY #MakeItLookEasy #kpop #kpopsongs #kpopopinions #kpopcommentary #kpopanalysis #choujimi
i feel like sakura requesting less lines on songs not immediately leading to her company trying to help her / giving her vocal lessons is concerning. like.. one of the singers of one of your groups is telling you she wants to sing less, that should warrant a response like more training etc.
HYBE isn't known for training their idols well vocally, their best vocalists weren't trained by them.
At the end of the day, Sakura trained under the company for what.. over a year? And there's no results whatsoever.
I hope that Sakura will realise that asking for less lines is just hiding the problem under the rub, use comments that hurt her as motivation and pay for vocal lessons on her own.
Anyone, I mean anyone can learn how to stay on pitch and relax their vocal chords while singing after few lessons.
I mean, the consensus I see on Reddit these past couple days is that in the olden days, weaker vocalists got fewer lines and that was good. People are blaming stans demanding equal line distributions for creating the problem.
It seems to me that people are taking any angle to justify the expression of their personal distaste for idols with weaker vocals as an objective thing that can be fixed by lecturing someone else.
I believe you all missed what she said exactly RIGHT AFTER THAT PART.
And her asking less lines WAS BACK IN THE PAST, during IZ*ONE.
Kindly watch what she said right after and what they also showed after that part (that everyone has removed on tiktok and twitter for drama)
The documentary was about their past and moving forward from it and growing and becoming better, changing their status quo
@@bopete3204there are idols like Jeongyeon from Twice, Xiumin from EXO, Lee Know from Stray Kids and Haseul from Loona got few lines despite being able to sing. In Jeongyeon and Haseul’s case they were even one of the best singers in their groups. Haseul is legit a main vocal in Loona. So in some case someone do deserve more lines then they got.
Some people just can't sing I'm sure she got vocals lessons every trainee go through that process but not everyone can become a singer. That how I see it. And this isn't the first time smth like this happens either
Not only can her company help her vocally, she can also consult with some type of psychologist because it's obvious that one of the reasons she sings like that in the encores is due to her lack of self-confidence.
As an AKB48 fan I can say that Sakura’s self confidence has dropped tremendously after debuting as a kpop idol. I’ve been rewatching many of HKT and AKB live performances that Sakura’s been in and she’s always been stable and seemed to be having fun on stage. AKB’s whole concept was not being the “perfect” idols. They were idols you meet and supported their dreams, and the girls themselves formed a strong bond and sisterhood together. Now throw her into an industry where you need to be flawless you can see how that starts to chip away any self reassurance.
this makes me curious- is jpop in general like that, less cutthroat than kpop or was that just akb48? i naively assumed a jpop idol might have a slightly easier time transition to kpop just by virtue of being an idol already (i apologize for the ignorance, i am woefully unfamiliar with both industries and their ins and outs) but i am definitely wrong on that
@@noahfan2719I feel like when it comes to J-pop, and her AKB group its definitely more laid back and performative based.
@@noahfan2719
Some J-pop idols (not all) may have a harder time transitioning to K-pop because how vastly different some companies train their idols. In Produce48 a AKB48 member revealed that the AKB members never had proper training and they weren't provided with vocal or dancing coaches. They were told to focus on being appealing to the audience instead.
But like I said not all J-pop companies are as lax as this. Labels such as LDH created idol schools that specialize in training their idols as performers and/or singers, and it's a pretty intense experience but great groups such as Exile (and it's subunits) and E-girls came out of it. Another label would be the Upfront Agency who created groups such as Morning Musume, Angerme, Juice=Juice all of which has amazing vocalists.
@@noahfan2719
It might be harder for some (not all) J-pop idols to transition into K-pop due to how vastly different some companies train their idols. An AKB48 member revealed while on Produce48 it was her first time getting proper vocal and dancing lessons because their company didn't provide that for them and told them to focus on being appealing to the audience.
Edit: I should also point out even without proper training some of the members were really great singers such as Takamina, Sayaka Yamamoto, and Okada Nana (they all graduated though 💀)
I respect you’re stance on it, does Sakura deserve to be discredited for all her achievements? No. Did pretty privilege play a part in her achievements? Yes. Is it a shame that she struggles so hard that she asks for less lines to sing? Yes. Her company isn’t helping her in the slightest way while having the money for coaching and that’s truly a pity. I still think it’s very crazy to say that you don’t mind if an idol can’t sing😭
"Pretty privilege" didn't happen for sakura really until she came to korea... She was known as the "funny" caricature rather than "pretty", especially not when she was in a group with literally THE prettiest member of all AKB groups (as voted as and widely agreed upon by media+members, who was also her mentor). Prior to debuting in korea she was often called cute and kinda derpy since she was a literal child (her only times going viral were due to the fact she did something stupid, not because she was a visual). Remember both Yunjin and Chaewon were both ranked higher than her in PD48 for beauty votes.
@@MissyxAkunai that’s true but most of her praises are about her visuals, even if the others ranked higher in the beauty contest, pretty privilege helped her succeed a lot faster. I mean just because her members got higher ranked doesn’t particularly mean that people see her as less pretty imo. Yeah I believe that prior to Korea it wasn’t her main praise but she has for more achievements made in Korea than Japan that I know of… Esp with izone and lesserafim
You lost me in "pretty privilege" as much as I think she is indeed beautiful there's absolutely nothing we can attributed of her success to it, Sakura have never been in a single group where she was considered the prettiest member (or even one of them) people forget a lot that she's not a singer/dancer/rapper she's an "idol" while is great when they 'can' sing most of the entertainment factctor about them, especially where she came from, is due to their charisma, their off stage work, their personalities as some sort of "character" her job as a performer AND dancer improved greatly, I don't understand why she should do more than that.
@@blue7284 well the only comments I ever saw about Sakura were comments praising her visuals, she got a lot of backlash when she was first introduced to lesserafim because people thought her youthful visual was gone. Her visuals does infact matter a lot more than it seems. When Sakura was in izone her dancing wasn’t very good, it was average at best and her stage presence wasn’t shining also. After lesserafim her dancing got a lot better and her stage presence was okay. You are 100% correct about her entertainment factor that was more important than having talent and skills but that is mainly in Jpop, in K-pop its different. In prod48 you could see the difference between jpop and K-pop. When a coach scolded Sakura for not being good at anything is shows that talent does infact matter more.
Don’t discredit Sakura that much by saying it is pretty privilege, when people critisised Sakura for looking old and plastic. I think it is her previous AKB48 fans and people who stan her for her personality that is the reason she is so famous.
While I appreciate you being honest, I am still shocked to straight up hear someone admit "I don't care if an idol is vocally talented", with vocally talented meaning "can hold a tune of their own song while standing" 😭
😭 I can’t really explain why I feel this way - I do appreciate the performance aspect of kpop, but I guess I don’t hold a lot of weight towards live performances as much as other people do. I can really appreciate an idol who is an all-rounder on stage, but that doesn’t impact my opinion of an idol who doesn’t meet every aspect of a performance, either
@@choujimi But if an idol doesn't know how to sing (or rap) then what's the difference between the idol and backup dancers ?
@@lakshyK Hmm, I think there’s a lot that can go into this question. I believe an idol has just as much (if not more) responsibilities off the stage as they do on-stage. Despite being regarded as performers, the *technical* job description of an “idol” has very little to do with musical talent in my opinion. That’s why actors and show hosts can also be considered idols, despite never having to sing or dance
@@lakshyK There are plenty of idols who just hold the "dancer", "visual/FOTG", "maknae/leader" positions when they debuted or officially: Jiwon from Sechs Kids, Park Joon from GOD (+ leader, later a rapper), hyoyeon & yuri from SNSD, suzy from Miss A, heechul/siwon from SJ, Mijoo from lovelyz, nana from after school, naeun from apink, Nara from hello venus, seolhyun from aoa, arin from oh my girl, minwoo/siwan from zea, sumni/sohee from wonder girls etc... most sang minimally (many having admit they refused/skipped singing or lessons in general like jiwon or mijoo) or changed over the years but that doesn't change that there's still for these positions unrelated to rapping or singing. Most of them are Stan attractors and brought in the most money which is essentially what kpop is about (based on the akb48 model of standardizing music releases and intense focus on marketing/concept production). There were many groups that relied on these "filler" positions for the pure survival of the group (most famous cases of this being seolhyun & suzy).
concept of overlapping + multi-position idols for groups rarely happened and wasn't an expectation until third gen (many fans changed / added positions as they grew)
tf???😂😂😂😂@@choujimi
I think that my points still stand on the last video: i love Sakura, but no matter how much she works hard, i know she can do better. I'm not expecting her to be THE second coming of Mariah Carey, but there's a plethora of sub vocalists that can sustain themselves on their own 2 feet vocally without having demanding parts of their discographies. And there's a lot of Idols who had put the work to improve their skills. And running away from her problems is not the solución, also the liniency of HYBE/Source in this situation is concerning, like the most popular member of your group is requesting to sing LESS....that should be concerning.
Also i want to put an hypothetical scenario: imagine that Le Sserafim goes to Coachella or their own concert where a lot of people are paying hundred or even thousands of dollars to see them live and they (whether be Sakura or Any other LS member) deliver less than impressive or straight up bad vocals...the fans are 100% on their right to complains about this case bcuz they're paying money for musical artist to hear them sing, bcuz above all the dancing and stage presence: Idols are singers and they should be able to sing somewhat decently
No, idols are promoters of music made by their companies, so if the concert is sold out and the album promoted is in top sales then there's nothing to worry about. If people don't like that idols can't sing, don't buy tickets or albums, then maybe companies would do something, but as of now, they don't need to improve them vocally
I REALLY respect people who aren’t afraid to retrospect.
we love a kpop commentary channel who is brave enough to admit that their opinions have been altered after receiving valid opposition. choujimi you are so loved and appreciated!!
Right? Like I don't particularly agree with him, but I can respect he was willing to listen. It's always hard when you like someone, to see the other side. I can respect that, I struggle with it myself.
I do applaud you for revisiting this topic with a different perspective, it really speaks to your character!
At the same time, while I love that you aim for keeping the discussion complex and nuanced, I also feel like the discussion might use a few safe simplifications to help navigate things a bit better.
I love that you've made this video nonetheless! I'll be working on my own video in the meantime :)
I agree, breaking things down simply is probably the best way to proceed forward haha
You are infinitely more capable of having that discussion than I am - I’ll be interested to see your video on it!!
as a sakura fan too i just honestly feel disheartened bc i WANT her to be better. I dont need her to be the next wendy or taeyeon or Ailee of kpop, but as a musical performer who SINGS she should at least be able to sing passably. BUT ALSO she herself said that time is on her side and i believe it!!! We as fans can only really wait and see how well she improves after this
The blame here falls mostly on Sakura's companies (past and present), but also herself (because we all know damn well that she can *afford* to pay for singing lessons (lets not lie to ourselves about that, and she had the time between IZ*ONE and LE SSERAFIM to work on her vocals) and she clearly knows she isn't up to par because I've seen multiple people say she has specifically requested less lines, which...I'm gonna leave that Pandora's box for another day!!
The difference between the company and idol in this scenario is that Sakura might not have the time for vocal lessons in her *company-decided* schedule. (I don't know how busy they are and unless you're a stalker then you don't either 99% of the time) although in Sakura's case in particular, it doesn't absolve her completely for aformentioned reasons.
At the end of the day, I still feel justified to hold any and all idols that sing/rap in their music to a resonable standard (be able to sing your own lines in your own song competently) and politely critisise them when they can't even manage to stay in tune, or not just shout-talk over a beat, whilst standing still on stage, the most prominent targets for netizens *generally* can afford their own vocal lessons. Yet, in the same breath, I also critisise the company who actively chose to debut that trainee despite there likely being plenty of others who most likely could and do sing/rap better. (Yes, I'm looking at you Big4!)
If Sakura was from a small company, I could just ignore it but she's from Hybe. Like, that company is so rich, I'm sure they can afford a few vocal trainers. I don't understand why Hybe is not giving her vocal training.
Not to « defend » her but the people saying she’s had 13 years to evolve as a singer clearly didn’t Watch produce 48. In the show not many japanese contestants were Vocally talented, not because Japan has bad singers You only really need to listen to 1 or 2 jpop songs to see that that’s not the case, but because the akb48 group just did not have an emphasis on vocal training. Many of the contestants were at a lost in the show because they realized that many of the korean contestants had a lot more to offer vocally, because of the trainee system and it’s difference to akb’s system. The akb48 girls were teached to focus on performance and to Connect with their fans, but dance and Vocals were Never the main focus. So to me saying that it’s weird that Sakura is a bad vocalist despite being in the industry since she was young doesn’t really make sence if You know how she was trained. Ofc she SHOULD become better and continue to take vocal lessons but that wasn’t really the point I wanted to focus on.
I feel a similar way - people hold the 13 years of experience over her head, but the focus on vocal performance hasn’t *really* been there until she got into le sserafim, I would argue
** that doesn’t mean I think she should be exempt from criticism, but it’s still something worth considering
@@choujimiagreed! To me it’s impressive just how much people overlooked the improvement she has made in dance and her stage presence, two points no one can say hybe is bad at training their idols in. Yes, vocally she’s kind of really not there but my god is she a way more interesting idol in lesserafim than she was in iz*one
OMG YES! Everytime I see people trying to use her years as an idol as a weapon against her it makes me incredibly sad because, not only it's a way to try to invalidate her accomplishments as an idol during these 13 years in the industry, but also offers nothing in the realm of constructive criticism. It's pure mockery. And she already has a role in the group. She's popular, she does incredibly well in variety shows, she's able to bring in brand deals and is also able to help lead the other less experienced members so they won't be met with unfortunate experiences she probably had to deal with when young. I think she should be encouraged to improve vocally not because she needs to be a good vocalist (as we already have members able to carry the vocals for the group), but because it would improve her confidence on stage whenever they need to sing live.
Plus, I also doubt she received any vocal training during IZ*ONE, so to expect her to unlearn all the unhealthy singing habits she's picked upon along the years in such a short time span is unreasonable.
Really, thank you for your comment!
@@noriyuuart20this! Everytime I said this people are just like “excuses, excuses” 🙄 it’s like talking to a wall really
I feel like kpop fans in general need to consider how we can't blame a company alone for an idol being weak in a skill. I believe that kpop idols equally have the responsibility to improve their weak areas and need to invest the same amount of their practice time (or even more) that they put into their strengths as their weaknesses. And just because someone works hard, that doesn't mean that the final product of their work is necessarily good or absent of criticism. In this kind of situation, the idol's approach to how they have tried to improve their skills needs to be re-evaluated and changed so that the quality of their performance matches the amount of effort they have put into improving it.
As a consumer, I'm kind of tired of seeing how fans have to beg kpop artists to do well in the bare minumum of what they are expected to do in their job. I feel like this kind of leniecy is only acceptable in the kpop world due to fans being blinded my their admiration for kpop idols.
SAY IT LOUDER
100 percent and i think its in their culture as well most people stan idols for visuals and charisma mostly, having amazing vocals was just icing to the cake. Something I noticed with regular k stans of kpop over the years.
I think Sakura should really go outside of HYBE and get a vocal trainer because there are moments where her voice shows potential.... I wholeheartedly believe that Sakura could be an amazing vocalist, but she just needs to invest in her voice a little more... we've seen her improve significantly in her dancing skills, so there's no way she can't also improve her voice
There's no need for Sakura to learn anything past basic singing technique tbh. She's more of a performer and a dancer. She just needs to get a grasp on the basics and she's good cuz her lines r all easy
@mingisfixon6452 I mean she could do better then the bare minimum which is my point
No what she need is to quit being kpop and just beinh backup dancer or youtubers..Kpop music is not for idols..
@ciaranjohnston7983 i know and I'm saying there's no reason for more than that for the reasons I stated. And besides, u can do a descent amout with basic vocal technique.
Nah Sakura can keep making music I just hope she's not scared to sing when has to😅
a quick note from someone who has done vocal training (tho it was choral and not pop) - i think hybe needs to better tailor their songs to their artists!! sakura was not the only one who sounded bad in that encore - actually, what really surprised me was that yunjin, who we all know is a great vocalist, didn't sound good. maybe 'easy' just doesn't fit le sserafim's vocal ranges at all! i haven't thought about it enough to say which range each member has, but personally, 'easy', though the melody is extremely straightforward, sits in that tricky spot between my head voice and chest voice where it's hard to get a really strong, stable sound.
sorry if this is kind of irrelevant - just wanted to point out that even is someone has great vocal skills, they can still sound bad if they're out of their range! i don't think sakura is a great vocalist, but if 'easy' doesn't fit her range and makes her sound worse... why the heck is hybe giving it to her?!
The thing is, if you say, "Idols' (from a business perspective) vocal skills are not expected to be X level; they are used to sell a product," is that it's not exactly true.
If you say it's OK for a K-POP artist not to sing well (which is part of their job; otherwise, forget training), you can also say it's OK for K-POP artists not to have other performance skills required for their job.
An argument can look like the following: "It's fine if this idol doesn't dance; they are used to sell a product." [This looks different for advertisers; I'm strictly referring to fans.]
So, why don't we say that? After all, it's true that companies use idols to sell products.
Here, it would be good to look at what encourages people to buy the product the idol is selling.
Good performance skills (vocals, dance) are one of those things.
The visual aspect of K-POP sells exceptionally well and emphasizes dance. Idols can't fake how well they can dance, and companies can't do anything to cover it up.
With vocals, companies can cheat the audience with auto-tuning.
It's not that people don't care about vocals; they're just not hip to what's happening in front of their eyes or ears, or can't tell when auto-tune is used (as a mixing tool).
Even when they know auto-tuning is used, they're not bothered because they haven't been burdened by 'bad singing.' Which isn't often the case with lip-synced stages, so lip-synced stages don't have the propensity to bother them either. (e.g. people who say vocals aren't imperative to being an idol usually hold this opinion, and only hold it because they're not burdened by bad singing on the original track.)
Until they're pressured to do so, companies don't see a reason to focus on vocals, especially when they can successfully deceive the public.
We're seeing a decrease in vocals (in the mainstream music sphere) globally because it's easier to cheat the system.
So when people saw Sakura's encore, bar haters, I don't think it's that they suddenly developed standards for idols. I think it's that they saw a performance in its raw state and decided it was impassable. That's not to say idols are there to strive for excellence in their performance abilities, but rather passability. Sakura's stage was not even passable.
Not to be a contrarian, but doesn’t the vast majority of companies “cheating the system” tell us about how much they value vocal abilities from a business perspective?
I’m not saying I defend this, but again, I think companies have realized they can prioritize member popularity over performance skills, as the former is the thing that earns the most money.
Sakura’s poor vocals has been a pressing issue since Le Sserafim’s debut, yet the album sales and chart positions are on the rise. Le Sserafim is soaring to new heights in popularity right now, despite the backlash over performances.
Similarly, I can’t really think of a group that has ever suffered financially due to lack of talent? Is there one?
I concede that lack of performance ability is a problem, given kpop has a lot to do with music, but it’s observably not a problem that enough people care about in all reality for companies to take into consideration
@@choujimiI don't think this response addresses much of what I said in my comment at all.
To put it simply:
Performance skills are one of the things that K-POP fans are interested in, and a reason why idols can sell well.
Companies can doctor certain aspects of those performance skills.
There is a bare minimum of passability that is expected of an idol.
When people either 1) realize the doctored performance skills, or 2) the idol doesn't reach the level of passability, the 'fantasy' is temporarily broken.
I said at the end of my comment: So when people saw Sakura's encore, bar haters, I don't think it's that they suddenly developed standards for idols. I think it's that they saw a performance in its raw state and decided it was impassable. That's not to say idols are there to strive for excellence in their performance abilities, but rather passability. Sakura's stage was not even passable.
Someone who is already roped in (i.e. not a fan for performance or music only) won't care about whether their idol can sing, and sales/charts won't be affected. The people who are buying in bulks to get into fansigns likely aren't fans because of their performance or music only.
I'm not saying that a group could suffer financially due to lack of talent.
I don't think that having bad performance skills can impact you to that extent; especially when the vocals are doctored.
What does suffering due to lack of talent really look like when you can just make talent up?
That group doesn't exist. I'd rather you ask me to go find a unicorn.
And again, it's not an observable problem because it's made that way. It's not supposed to be observable.
Which is why I said 'until they're (companies) pressured to do so (focus on vocals).'
You don't care whether or not your idol has talent, fine. But you only say that because, again, you're not burdened by bad singing.
Sakura is an important asset to the group, whether people think she deserves it or not. Kpop is not, and has never been, exclusively about the music, and I don't know why we're pretending so, as if every 2nd gen idol was a vocal powerhouse, some of them struggled too and improved with the years, but that never really took from them being good performers or being an important part of the group. Having charisma is a skill in itself and Sakura has it.
It's completely irrelevant that Sakura's been an idol for this long re: her vocals because during her time in HKT48 she had a nice tone and it fit her songs, I don't think it's a secret to anyone that Hybe doesn't have good vocal coaches, everyone knows Yunjin is a fantastic singer yet she sounded shaky in the encore aswell. Easy doesn't fit their vocal range, none of theirs, its too low when most of le sserafim thrive in a higher register.
This doesn't mean she can't be criticized, she can, and I dont think she's scared of singing, really. Hybe should provide them with better coaches and songs that fit them but Sakura is more than needed here.
Garam>>>>>> Sakura.
@@zerotwothree without Sakura, they won't have any guarantee to be decently successful.
Without Garam, they proved to be just fine though
Maybe kpop has never been about the music-whatever that means. And you get an easier path if you’re the visual or more visually appealing compared to your other members. However unless you are apart of the stan era, aka the modern era from 2016-now.
Music was the main part of it.
I’ve been a kpop fan for a long time, idols were good looking before, but idols are definitely better looking now, also with better hair, makeup, and outfits. So kpop at one point relied a lot on the music, since the MV’s were like 360-480p. The outfits were an eyesore.
The only things that would do well were good music. And the viral moments that happened a lot do the time included live singing.
Also now in such an era where everything is replayable, and there is much more criticism from much more people. You can’t lack, or be extremely lacking as leserrafim are.
In the past, you were criticized, but obviously to a smaller audience, and to less people, and from less outlets.
Sakura, was set up to fail by her Hybe, and she really can’t do anything about it. Same with the other members, and other groups who lack the skills that idols need.
Dancing, visuals, and singing. You don’t need rap, you can have other things like charism, and other things that performers should have.
But the first 3 are the minimum needed, while you can build the others.
I mean who doesn’t like a socially awkward, beautiful person? But if you don’t lack in dancing or visuals, and don’t lack in singing you can’t get criticized at all. And I’m not entirely blaming her, Hybe literally don’t know how to make their idols into singers, especially with the excessive auto tune all their groups have.
Anyways, kpop really is about the music, in the end the organically popular music will leave a better and more known legacy than the inorganic 24/7 streamed songs. -I mean think back to the iconic songs throughout the 2010’s a lot of them were from before the streaming era and have millions of views. -when a song is so good, it’ll be remembered. You can remember a little bit about the visuals of the MV, or 10 seconds of a dance. But you’ll remember the music more than anything.-the voices of your idols.
I guess this is just a new era way of thinking. But that’s my opinion.
The music is actually the most important factor, if you are jus there for the looks you become less important if you can’t stand out with your voice.
Yeah music is important obviously but the skills the idols need to have is not maybe not so much depending on their situation. Also 2nd gen outfits are good to me in way because they were putting on anything 😭
@@milktea2422 I agree with a lot of what you said! I actually don't think we are in disagreement, since I never said music is not important or that only looks matter, I just think you don't need to be a top singer to be a fantastic idol, does that make sense? I think being an idol has its own artistry.
I love 2nd generation the most! a lot of them would be harshly criticized in today's climate for weak vocals and performances, like you said, because there's a bigger audience now. and hey! I liked their outfits! i love how colorful they were, it made them stand out. Yes! of course the music was a big part of it, but it's never been all of it, not now and not in the 2010's.
There are a lot of disparities in the perception of idols. I wanna say particularly female idols, but I also don't think I'm familiar enough with male idols to say. I think Soyeon is a good example of what I'm talking about though. People will say she's a great writer but also say her writing isn't good, which is not to say good writers can't write bad things, but you would think people would have good things to say based on her reputation. Is it possible to be a good writer whose writing is bad? Is it possible for Sakura to be a good idol without developed skills as an idol? It's not something I feel I completely understand, and these questions don't necessarily speak for my genuine, personal opinions.
But think about survival shows. People tend to look at Wonyoung as more deserving of first than Chaehyun when Chaehyun shows a lot more skill at least in one specific area. If Xiaoting had won, I think she would have had less backlash about deserving it when her skills are also more general. I think there is a difference between being a good idol and being a skilled idol, and I don't really know how to feel about that. That's just where my head is at. I'm sure people might say it's about looks or just an x factor, but it really is hard to say.
I think in Chaehyun's case, she isn't really seen as a suitable center for Kep1er by most, whereas, Wonyoung/Somi were.
@@moonaestheticly8597 I mean, yes. I see that point. But that makes me question if there is an x factor we don't understand yet (or will never understand) that makes a center. Is there a specifc quality that gives someone the ability to really sell they are an idol, or is it different on a sort of case by case basis? This is not to say you're wrong in any way, but, even looking at Xiaoting's potential as a center, I think she was suitable for it but not in the exact same way as Wonyoung, who was also different from Somi. Like it's an abstract skill that makes people go so far as to vote for someone with less obvious skills. It's just complex to think about.
It think its charisma its a specific type of charisma because what makes Wonyoung so appealing as a center in my eyes is her aura on stage she really just captivates you to where you only see her on stage. This charisma doesn't however come in many shapes and forms I think the term for it could possibly be "it-factor"@@nayeonchantix
I've been a fan since 2nd gen, and companies sometimes recruited models to their groups to be a pretty face and give them 0 lines (example AOA Seolhyun started off as just a face with no lines until she gained more skill). Turning this into a generational battle is so counterproductive. I'm not on the socials really, so I wasn't aware of that part of the debate either. I like that even though you still have the same end conclusion that you not only took the time to reflect on what other opinions people offered, but you shared your reflection with us. That makes this channel really feel like a community!
i recall mina say once that she felt like she didnt have to train that much bc her pretty face would get her to debut.
@@markigirl2757 The girl who took 3 vocal lessons talking shit?
Honestly, and this isn't as uncommon of an opinion as people like to think, idols don't all have to excel in singing. Of course, the main purpose of idols is to sell their music and, by extension of that, they should be able to perform their songs, but it's not like untalented vocalists (and may I stress untalented vocalists--not singers) don't often break into mainstream music with the help of some catchy tunes and perhaps some interesting lyrics. I think what really sets K-pop to be different than any other type of pop to begin with is how their music is intrinsically intertwined with performances. Not very often will you hear a power ballad being a title track, nor will you often see idols sit down and belt their hearts out to a song. When people think of K-pop, and I feel that this is true even back in the day of 1st/2nd gen, they think of people that can perform their songs to a choreography. The art form that they deliver is a combination of both choreography and music; your eyes are visually pleased and your ears sonically pleased as well. It shouldn't be forgotten that in K-pop, the performance is just as important as the music; if either is lacking, then the audience falters. In the case of Le Sseraffim, the vocals are handled by Yunjin and Chaewon (who are doing just fine despite the key and execution of Easy... who decided to make them sing a heavily autotuned song live anyway, it was already a set-up for failure since it obviously won't sound the same live).
This brings me to the next point; the performances are tailored to the very audience that already expects this of idols. What sells the most for idols? Concerts and tours. Therefore, having the ability to actually perform the music as an idol is seen as above the ability to just sing. We have idols that bring different things to the table for performances, and the combination of all of them makes very successful tours and concerts.
The way I see it, Kazuha and Sakura serve pretty similar purposes in the group, with both having underdeveloped vocal abilities, but greater dancing skills and a charm unmatched by many others.
The world is full of good intentions and that’s not enough. I like Sakura and I know she can improve. My issue is with not trying to overcome that. Or at least it’s not noticeable. I really hope she is working on it behind the scenes and not only in terms of singing but in her own self confidence. I’ve been liking le Sserafim more and more but tbh, K-pop is far from what it was from 2nd gen.
You're overanalyzing. Live vocals isn't just a Sakura problem, it's a Kpop problem. Sakura has only really been training vocally for a year. If you watch the 'terrible encore' you'll see Yunjin and Chaewon struggle too at first, but lock in. When inexperienced singers can't hear the monitor they go loud and off-key. LSF have been spending a lot of time in the US where live vocals are most important and I'm sure she's finally getting the best training. Watch the US live performances to get a better sense of where she's at. She'll be fine.
It honestly seems like a HYBE problem. A lot of their newer groups or all groups in general have bad vocals overall. (Excluding pledis groups) and all the good vocalists trained ELSEWHERE 💀
@@wonyoungoveryou Y'all won't stop with this. Look at Boynextdoor, they have pretty good vocals and the same goes for TWS which some of the members trained under Bighit. Companies ain't perfect but it is also on the idols to take some actions
@@wonyoungoveryou all hybe groups? absolutely not
@@User-murrbjgt367 txt can sing live but their vocals are mediocre at best, taehyun is the only one who is vocally talented. Also I said EXCLUDING pledis groups, and most of the good vocalists in the company (lily and Wendy level) are trained ELSEWHERE.
@@User-murrbjgt367 it’s many hybe singer that have had encore troubles. Newjeans for their live singing, le serra for their encores and live singing, bts for some of their members live voices at some points, txt for how they aren’t vocally good (though they can sing live), etc.
sure sakura had thirteen years to develop but she spent most of that time in japan where their singing style is different from how it is in korea. i don't know if i'm more cognizant of that because i followed her from hkt48 to produce48 and from there to now le sserafim and most people probably didn't? but i continue to hope that source music and hybe do things to help her gain confidence. i saw her gain confidence in iz*one and her return to hkt48 and then its rollercoaster'd during her time in le sserafim. i just want her to be happy. if she's not happy singing as is then my hope is that she gets help. that's all. idc about other people's opinions that much when it comes to kpop because i've been a part of the fandom for nine years and i've seen the same opinions rehashed in a thousand different ways over the years. kpop is always changing. it always has and it always will. -shrugs-
Tbf sakura didn't get many lines in izone plus there were 11 other members as well so maybe there was less attention on her vocal abilities hence why she was seemingly more confident then. But she gets more lines in le sserafim and there's not as many members so unfortunately there will be more scrutiny.
I DO think she needs to improve, and there seem to be no reasons why she hasn't. HOWEVER, I do think that your video did bring up the absolutely correct point that kpop is about way more than vocals and music - dance, personality, visuals, nepotism and reputation, marketing, etc. Sakura being a bad vocalist is not a good thing, but it doesn't make her a useless idol or useless in the group.
Ok, here is the thing I love Le Sserafim's discography, but they cannot sing live, simple as that, Sakura is not the only one, so I am not watching live performances of theirs, except if they have very elaborate stages and choreography. Now, especially with Sakura, there are a lot of issues going on. Along with all the criticism, some people are straight up bullying her and are disgusting, but I also find it very weird when people go "Well it's ok that she can't sing" and they defend her and the group in general when just their skill is critiqued.
Criticism is not necessary to be constructive all the time, I can say "Well, girlies can dance, but the girlies cannot sing" and it isn't hate even though can rub people the wrong way or hurt the idols' feelings. In their case as well as in the case of various Hybe groups people have given constructive criticism 1000 times and they do not listen, they need proper vocal training for their own good and benefit. The girls not only have issues with their vocals they also look frightened before singing their songs, it is not healthy for their voices or their mental health something needs to be done.
We are talking about Sakura because she has been active for more than a decade at this point but Kazuha and Eunchae are not trained properly either and sound just as bad and look pretty anxious as well. Chaewon and Yunjin are not that comfortable either btw, people dismiss it bc, yes they are the best in the group, but they also struggle. Yunjin is NOT an opera singer as many fans say, she has some classical singing training and had some roles in plays, but she isn't a full-on opera singer and she needs help with pop and a more contemporary style of singing because all this talent is immense but also wasted. Chae is a functional idol, but she too has issues with live singing, and if they cannot work it out at all to the point of looking on the verge of an anxiety attack when asked to sing, is harmful to them first and foremost. For real if the most popular member asks fewer lines, the issue is not the people that critisize her, or at least not the main issue and the company needs to do something.
Also, no, the encore stages are not the only issue, other lives outside of encores and promotional shows have issues and the backtrack is carrying them 99% of the time. It is wasted potential they have killer dances, killer songs, and fun personalities but come on they are also singers and they do not have 9 people to cover for this, 2 members are carrying the whole group vocaly. The song was not that low either, lower than normal? Yes. That low to the point of not projecting? No.
I know that people say "Well, Kpop is the whole performance package it's ok, I am ok with it I don't care about singing live." well yeah everyone likes different things, but we can all agree that there always be people who care about singing in music and they can express it as far as they are not hating and there is that. There have been nasty people as always sadly, but people saying "Well that is not it" or "This is bad" or "Something needs to be done" is not hate.
I commented in the last video and I wanted to add something after watching this video.
I love sakura, she is my ult bias. I know she is talented, I know she has the mindset to get better, I know she is hardworking. But it makes me so mad that she just doesn't seem to get better at singing. Her lack of singing abilities won't make me hate her or stop loving her. I just wish the company and her would do an effort to help her with her confidence and her abilities. She CAN get better, that's why it makes me so mad that she doesn't seem to improve at all. I know is a lack of confidence and a lack of support. But it's damaging Sakura's and le sserafim imagine. I don't understand why don't they try to change it. The hate makes kkura be less confident, but she wouldn't be getting hate if she was better to begin with. It's a ongoing cycle that won't end till she improves. She NEEDS to prove herself like she did with dancing. I wished the company care more.....
in any other profession.... if you were lacking so much in one aspect you would get fired.
honestly its kinda something to envy, to be lacking in one of the main points in your job and still be that successful in that industry.
I think sakura should hire her own vocal coach instead of depending on company since they won't do it. They will rather let sakura have less lines or make her lip sync than help her vocally. I dont care about vocal technique but i want idols to at least carry there lines properly especially a song that is not very high like easy.
I appreciate your follow up. You have the right to maintain your position, but also the right to change your mind. I don’t exactly think you’re wrong in wanting to defend Sakura, but the defense was weak and easily picked apart from multiple angles. As I commented in your last video, I enjoy both your videos and Sakura as an entertainer- but with both of you in mind I don’t have to enjoy everything. Keep doing you, though!
Watched the first vid, watched about half of this one - I had my answer to this general question a long time ago when I first got into kpop and it hasn't changed
There are so many - and I mean SO MANY - idols who don't sing "well" live.
Some can sing just fine if they aren't dancing but then sound like a dying chicken if they sing while dancing (which, understandable.)
Some groups seem to overshadow their live vocals with the recorded vocals while live so you can only really tell when they horribly miss notes but couldn't really hear them otherwise
Some groups seem to just lip sync 90% of the time
They're a brand. They're an image. They're an ideal.
Kpop "being about the music" is a half-lie that we tell ourselves. It's not about the music, or at least not as much as it could/should be.
I can only care so much if x, y, or z idol can or can't sing live - do I like the song? do they sound fine when in the recording booth? Is the finished product that I press play on in Spotify sound good?
Then that's fine enough for me.
LE SSERAFIM *is* a group I'd like to see live at least once - and Sakura would have to be *pretty god-awful* for me to walk away feeling any different about them.
And I mean the entire package - she would have to sing poorly, dance poorly, have 0 energy, etc. etc.
Why isn't HYBE doing anything to help her be a better live singer? No clue. I'm fairly clueless on about 90% of the decisions kpop companies make. So, so, so many decisions seem to be braindead, over-the-top, and/or tactless.
So let's stop lying to ourselves. Kpop isn't "about the music" as much as it should be - bummer. Am I going to stop listening? No, there are still plenty of great Kpop songs that I love and enjoy - including many by LE SSERAFIM. I won't stop listening because 1 idol isn't "good" at singing live. If that was the case, I have to delete a LOT of songs of my Kpop playlists lmao.
So, for me, personally, nothing has changed: Kpop is a money-making machine that values beauty over vocal/musical ability 9/10 times. Heck, I feel like dancing is sometimes more important than singing half the time...
Hopefully she improves, but if not - oh well. I honestly doubt it will hurt them much. There are plenty of kpop groups that sing poorly live - 1 member ain't going to change their upward trajectory.
I might be overthinking it but Sakura doesn't talk "normally"
It's almost as if something is wrong with her vocals chords and it needs a medical checkup
Idc if she can't hold a tone when people can very well see that even when speaking she has issues
She hesitates , the words don't come out naturally
It's a deep voice issue rather than vocal issue which needs medical attention
maybe from all the damage she had to do with a fake voice since jpop idols have to sound cute. But I might be over speculating on that possibility so take what i said with a grain of salt. Also i hope she does get the medical attention bc if its seriously bad and left untreated it could permanently damage her future singing career.
im a sakura stan and i know she's hella bad. im a mamamoo ult, for god's sake. but im a fan because im rooting for her. i find her journey inspiring and i see huge potential in her. ❤
YESSS i also love her and hope she can improve as well. she can do it i hope she doesn't let the hate get to her. I'm sure she will singing okay one day. To be fair it never bothered me that she could sing that well but i understand she needs to sound decent when she sings live and I hope she can take the actual criticism well to help motivate her ;)
Hi! Replying again, because I also left a critique comment on your previous video so it seems only fair that I will also sit this video through and leave another updated renewed response as well. Thank you for making this video. It's good to see that you have gotten a lot of comments that helped you and made you learn about kpop more. I feel a lot of people learned from the comments. I also found it incredibly helpful to see other people finally talk about this, so thank you for creating that space!
There's definitely a lot to unpack with the "2nd and 3rd gen groups' push for credibility is going down the drain" sentiment.
I do read it as hate though. Maybe not for Sakura specifically, but hate for the type of idol that Sakura represents: known for visuals and personality over musical skill. It's combined with love for (presumably) musically excellent idols of past gens, but love and hate are often two sides of the same coin. There's not really another way to explain seeing Sakura not sing well and thinking that your faves have been harmed.
One thing about me is that I'm always going to blame the company before I blame the idol. Hybe should provide vocal lessons for their idols even after debut. If she requested less lines that should have been their que to dicuss with her why and what she wants to do to change that or even about her mental state.
I didn't agree with you and was a bit disappointed because I just realized it was you in the video because it felt quite patronizing to Sakura and talented vocals in the Korean music sphere BUT I love how you did this video you're a better person than me because I'd just go cry in a corner lol.
In my opinion, you making both this video and the “in defense of Sakura” one, was admirable. All you can do is try to speak up about what you believe in.
i saw this being brought up in another discussion but i felt like its relevant here too. there is a roof hit when it comes to skill. some people are just not naturally gifted in singing. and no matter how much training a person gets, the vocals are not gonna surpass a certain point of improvement. i can probably get vocal lessons but i am not naturally talented in singing so at most i would sound like a very below average singer. the same with sakura. there is just so much she can do when she just doesn't have that capability. she's not a singer, we have known that for years, why do people still bring it up and get shocked.
the ones that do probably are unaware of her journey to get where she is out and take her at face value. The others simply hate her and using this to fuel their anti fan agenda.
I appreciate you revisiting this topic and looking at it from another POV. I've mostly been silently observing the discussion that has come up online surrounding Sakura's vocals - mostly because I wasn't sure if I had a fully formed opinion on the topic until now. To put it short and sweet, the music (production and vocals combined) is what brought me to K-Pop in 2011 and it's primarily why I'm still here. I understand that not everyone shares this opinion. HOWEVER, at this point, if I were Sakura, I would honestly be offended at the way that some people have decided to "defend" her. So many people saying, "Well K-Pop is primarily about the visuals anyway" is sooooo disappointing. THIS is, imo, one of the biggest reasons why some idols feel the need to get ps, why some companies "strongly encourage" their idols to get ps, why SOME companies don't seem to mind putting minors in situations to be easily sexualized (a problem that not only Le Sserafim has, but Hybe as a whole at this point) and why so many idols are lip syncing these days. It's because these companies know that ya'll don't really GAF about the talent, and will prioritize visuals almost every single time. All the people saying "K- Pop has always been a visual industry", well yeah no sh*t, because some of ya'lls standards for what to expect, sonically, from the K-Pop industry is literally on, if not below the ground. Most companies don't want that to change, because then they'd have to put in more effort in order to see a profit.
I've noticed that most companies don't really invest a lot in personal development for their idols but that kinda makes sense considering the average lifespan of kpop groups is around 7 years so they just want to make as much money off them as possible before they hit their expiry date and that's kinda sad tbh
It’s commendable that you don’t surround yourself by “yes-men”! I don’t blame Sakura personally, I blame her company and the bottom-of-the-barrel expectations of the Korean audience, but I do think if Sakura wasn’t there at the right time ppl would have found another idol to throw under the bus.
I also want to point out that I get a very misogynistic vibe from this whole situation too since TXT and Enhypen also have trouble singing just ONE LINE on stage, standing in one place, like Sakura, and yet everyone thinks they’re “vocal kings” for just opening their mouths during a performance. 🙄
I do think it is also important to acknowledge that Sakura is able to take vocal lessons outside of the company. As an adult a the oldest in Le sserafim she has the ability to see that this is an issue and that the company isn't supporting her in that way and go and pursue solutions outside the company
idk much about enhypen but txt, i will say aren't vocalists like sm idols but to say they are on sakura level of bad vocals is a lie. sakura can't sing and thats fine, but to bring in other idols just to bring her up is weird. compare txt singing at a random fansign with no backtracking and then putting it next to sakura trying to sing, it just doesn't compare.
@@sliverhalo9286 True. Asking for less lines isn’t going to fix the problem, being proactive in doing your lines justice is.
@@sunnyshie I brought them up more for the gg vs bg comparison. I don’t see male idols getting nearly as much hate for their mediocre vocals. I also agree that both Taehyun and Heesung are better vocalists than Sakura, but the fact that they are main vocalists is scary to me because the difference isn’t as big as one would think. Taehyun in particular makes these expressions after he delivers his lines that make me think that he’s experiencing discomfort…his larynx always sounds SUPER elevated and I don’t think he even knows where his false vocal chords are in order to properly fry scream.
@@alexandragabitto2573 they don't get the same amount of hate because sakura literally cannot sing at all. while you agree that taehyun is a better singer. if he sounded like sakura then yes, i would be on your side that there is double standards. but i don't think i've seen a male idol that is at the level sakura is. at least recent ones besides jimin but he also got a ton of hate for that and he is still dragged for it today.
As a Sakura fan. I fully realize that Sakura is not a good vocalist. Like many ppl mentioned, I do believe hype/source has responsibilities to set their artists up for success should hire whatever personnel’s is needed to help them improve especially vocals because sakura specifically has been criticized multiples times in the past so it’s not anything new. But that being said Sakura does need to take things into her own hands eventually and hire the coaches herself if hype/source isn’t willing.
i wish they did but it seems the criticism was not "loud enough" otherwise sales number wouldn't have still risen. Hopefully they reconsider tho since if they are required to sing live in the future then that can spell for some massive trouble and lets hope it doesn't take that for them to finally get things right
@@markigirl2757 yeah definitely
This is why you are one of my favourite kpop channel. The others tend to be more mature kpop fans so their discussions are more level headed. But you, you are very intelligent, self aware, insightful, and honest. Thank you.
Haven't watched the video yet so forgive me if what I raise has been addressed, but has no one considered that her vocals being heavily damaged from singing with barely any technique since 13 years of age us hampering her ability to improve? I honestly think that's really the most likely explanation for it. She needs to rest her voice and build her voice from the ground up from now. I don't think the hard work people want her to do will work, she just needs to not sing at all for a while
Exactly
When people bring up sakuras “13 years as an idol” when you look at the context she was a j-pop idol and her singing was literally seen as good by the public there- and not to mention we’re forgetting she’s one of the most overworked people ever, the criticism is def valid imo but we need to take things into account, because it’s not like she was REFUSING to improve
K-Pop fans need to realize being an idol isn’t inherently about musical talent. Positions exists for a reason, the lines are blurred now in 4th gen but it has never been solely about singing. It’s all about entertainment and making people happy. There needs to be a discussion about the difference between artists and idols.
YESSS im sick and tired of some fans not realizing it. However I am aware that many new fans those who came in late in the game are unaware of this and think kpop idols are home grown beyonces or brittany spears (some are but that was not very common in kpop groups in general).
I mean IMO there's a baseline of idols should be able to sing their /own/ songs. I for sure don't expect every single idol to be a vocal great and I think expecting that out of idols I don't stan would be hypocritical because many idols I do stan are not people who I would consider real vocal standouts. I think there are a lot of kpop groups that do lack that extreme vocal talent, and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, as long as they're able to sing their own songs. For a long time this was like KARA, where none of them are that great at singing, but they're great at giving what needs to be given- another 2nd gen example is I feel like 2PM and 2NE1. I think that this isn't even a dead concept- newer gen girl groups like IVE and TripleS are both groups that I love but aren't vocally the best- not bad, but they certainly don't have standouts. But I think the difference between them and Sakura in Le Sserafim is that I've never seen IVE and TripleS not be able to sing the songs that they're given, either because if they are initially unable to sing a song their company gives them training or may lower the song in order to give them a better chance. IVE also used to get a lot of this criticism that they couldn't sing closer to debut but the difference between them and Sakura is that IVE has really improved in a relatively short amount of time. They took the criticism- even that which went into territory which I would call hate- and used it as a constructive process to improve their vocals and have pretty much shut down that criticism after coming back with I AM and having incredible encore stages.
I think another issue here is people's frustration with HYBE more generally. It's becoming increasingly obvious that HYBE has no interest in training their vocalists and just cover up any issues in the studio. Not only are the best vocalists under the company idols like Seungkwan, DK, Hoshi, Hayoung, and Jiwon, none of whom were trained by HYBE, but there's just been a lot of vocal floppage from them in the past few years. Sakura really gets the brunt of criticism but I don't think its fair to put it all on her. TXT released Magic in a key FAR too high for the members. Heeseung and Sunoo are the only ones able to hit notes during Enhypen's encore stages. BoyNextDoor members sound strained in the studio version of some of their songs. Jimin last year performed one of the worst encore stages of all time. And Sakura isn't even the only Le Sserafim member that struggles to hit the notes of their songs. What's crazy is that this isn't even a universal issue in HYBE- they seem to have perfected this 'cater the song to the singer' philosophy in NewJeans, who aren't the best singers in the industry, but are the only group debuted under HYBE (besides TWS but they're too new to judge) that I've never seen struggle immensely during a performance, and this isn't stan protecting because I'm not a fan of theirs at all. I really don't think the criticism of this issue should then be directed at Sakura, but instead direct all the negative things about her vocals at HYBE, because this is clearly a much bigger issue in that company than just her. Improvement isn't impossible, but HYBE just legitimately does not care at this point.
Sorry this is so long lol 😅
I think its time for me to add my 2 cents into the convo because... i also dont care if a kpop idol isnt extremely vocally talented. I think its because growing up in the 00s i was surrounded by a ton of groups where there was only really 1 or 2 great singers and the rest barely got lines or got no lines period but i still loved them!!
Like the spice girls for example, were they all mariahs or whitneys?? Absolutely not! But did they have a sick ass concept and slay ass songs? Absolutely!! Sakura is a great member in le sserafim and ive heard her sing before she was in le sserafim and she sounded GOOD, i think what doesnt help is that some people think hating on her is some form of critique when its just not. Like no wonder she sounds bad in an encore when 1. Idols cant hear themselves for sh*t anyway, and 2 shes terrified of people hating on her left right and centre so has zero vocal confidence
yeah, i think i'm similar to you in that concepts of groups and the production of their music matters more to me than execution as a casual fan? ill hold artistry and talent to a high level but i dont care that much about underdeveloped talent, especially in an industry as stressful as kpop, though i always think improvement should be encouraged
hate doesnt help
@@joannar2079OMG SAME ME THREE haha im glad we all are thinking similarly! i am no expert so i think that is why im more lenient with kpop idols vs actual muscians/artists (from american since im american extremely harsh on that where my 'music snobery' specializes in LMAO)
i enjoyed hearing your perspective now that it’s been some time since the encore situation! i think the point you made in this video on not defining the kpop industry has particularly stuck with me despite initially having a different opinion to you. thank you for sharing your opinion :)
idc about the video or the topic but i just want to praise you for being so mature and well spoken...tbh i no longer have an interest in kpop but i still tune in to hear your thoughts :D
I am glad you made this video. I really understand you better now. It does makes me feel so heartbroken to know that she does have these issues with her vocals and self-confidence since coming into K-pop via. Produce 48. It also pisses me off Hybe and comapnies like Hybe do nothing to train idols vocally. I always wished her the best in IZ*ONE and Lesserafim. She brings so much to each group even when she isn't a vocalist or a good singer. But miss. ma'am, I can perform her ass off and will definitely give you a show to remember. She was the center in Produce 48 Theme Song for a reason.
Im glad u read all the comments and reflect back. I understand the sentiment of people coming from the past gen as i was one of them. The standards were very high back then and we love Kpop for that quality of skills the idols have and that was something we took pride in. Therefore the declining quality of the idols' skills can feel a bit like taking away that pride from us. I guess thatz where the criticisms at Sakura come from or at least thatz what mine come from
I appreciate your honesty and humility and because of that we’re able to hold a constructive discourse on the expectations of Kpop idols.
As a new fan it is sometimes frustrating because both sides can be so polarising amd as you said sometimes unproductive but it is refreshing to see you bring both sides of the argument to light as both sides do have valid arguments (imo)
Honestly before this comeback I thought it’d be best to have songs that can accommodate the members vocal range. That’s why I was excited to hear auto tune this comeback. Not only does this work with the genre it also allows them to be more confident with their voices (I do think that auto tune is acceptable when done tastefully) This is also in line with their concept as UNFORGIVEN was all about going their own way and doing what’s best for them (though I can see how it would be unacceptable for some people to depend on auto tune)
I think everyone hates wasted potential. If the message the le sserafim wants to convey is “hard work pays off” i do hope that it is sakuras goal to be a good vocalist otherwise her potential in le sserafim would’ve been definitely a waste
i deleted my comment on the original video, just… because similarly to you, reading the discussion surrounding this topic made me feel a bit out of place (since i had no definitive standpoint & still don’t lol)
i’m coming to realize that a lot of aspects aid, and almost, triumph the nuances in kpop discussions. choosing to look at the multitude of viewpoints will never deliver a firm stance on a topic that isn’t relating to morality. its genuinely so interesting to observe, and while it’s a bit overwhelming, i appreciate that the community isn’t so monotonous.
it’s commendable to reflect on yourself in a public space and respond to your audience accordingly, and for that i appreciate you!!
I'd like to propose a new episode title: "In Defense of 'In Defense of Sakura'" 😂
Ngl I am genuinely surprised that the original video received enough backlash to merit a follow-up mea culpa because I was very much on board with your viewpoint there. That said, even while I was aligned with you on it, I truly value your willingness to be persuaded by alternative viewpoints. If only certain other prominent Ktubers (cough) had even a fraction of that level of humility and self-awareness.
Also, my jaw literally dropped when you mentioned that you cranked the other episode out in 3 hours. Clearly I am at the beginning of the learning curve and/or severely overthinking it because it's taking me 10x as long to get an ep together.
...reread the last sentence and realized that I used "overthinking" organically. 😂 Yeah, that absolutely has to be part of my issue.
I'm launching this coming Friday btw! Super nervous/excited. Thanks yet again for all of your suggestions and support. My content is already better as a result of that input.
To that point, Canva is super cool! I used it not only for video backgrounds but also to make a banner for my LinkedIn, which looks sooo much more legit now as a result. That video production process video was so helpful. I have no doubt that it was informative for others as well.
Friday launch!! The time has finally come!
I’m glad my video was able to help you in some way! Will it be posted to this channel?
@@choujimi No, it'll be on @overthinkingkpop . I have too many non-kpop subscribers on this account from when I made WoW and hula hoop tutorials a decade and change ago. I'd be shooting myself in the foot by feeding my content to a bunch of non-kpop fans, which would nerf both my click-through rate and my watch time. I'm much better off starting from scratch. This account still has my maiden name on the email and I've been married since 2020, anyway, so I'm long overdue to switch to my current email address. I've been procrastinating about swapping over to it because I don't have a RUclips premium membership affiliated with that email yet and this account has all of my passwords/subscriptions/playlists. Porting those over to the new account is going to be awful and I'm not looking forward to it. 😔 Unfortunately, YT doesn't have a nice, easy way to import all of that data to a new account and it has to be done manually.
Based on my knowledge about how training works with AKB, it could take a while for Sakura to improve, but Hybe/source don't seem to be helping her out. It can be really hard to watch someone with potential not improve or get the help they need, but I have hope for her.
Tbh, I feel like the Sakura situation could (probably should) open up a larger conversation about what the current state of kpop "lacks in." Since 2nd & 3rd gen were filled with a lot of talented & legendary idols, but in truth, these subjects have been around for a very long time. I think it's just that many kpop fans are just realizing now how the industry actually works (idk why but maybe the survival show era has something to do with it) & are growing tired of seeing nothing change/improve.
in the 2nd gen some idols were not required to sing at all just sound decent in their "killing part". In jpop it was worse, there were members who never sung just danced lol.
woah this whole thing seems really controversial. i'm going to be straight up honest. I mostly feel the same way as you, though it depends. Maybe it's because I'm not super artistically invested into kpop as hard as others are nowadays, i just casually consume and if i see talent then ill admire it and dissect it and go crazy. if its lacking... i dont really care, honestly. do i like their music and would i watch performances and the choreo? yes? then ill stay a fan.
i get why people are insisting kpop idols need to sing live and all esp with the history of kpop, but i think im biased towards dance/performance/aesthetics over vocals, though that is a very controversial opinion and my own personal. but thats why kpop appeals to me personally, and it is why i dont mind 4th gen. if i wanted god tier vocals theres so many smaller k-artists and singers in the west for that, imo.
on top of that, kpop idols are particularly overworked and exploited because of all the facets of their job you pointed out and i just... dont have it in me to be mad or annoyed or anything like that if idols these days are lacking in vocals or live performances aren't happening, or something. maybe if i actually went to concerts and didnt get live performances i would care more? i dont know. I care more about exploitation in the industry tbh. though as a dance enthusiast i know idols are being overworked in that factor too, so... ah well. hybe should definitely get vocal coaches for sakura. but i also hope shes doing alright in light of this singing controversy. though some are giving constructive criticism there is no denying that thousands of people are also genuinely just bashing her for fun.
i do think some things are a bit ridiculous though, like lipsyncing while sitting down (not encore stage). i know that was a big thing with ive and ... yeah that's just. pretty goofy though i still dont think hate trains should happen for that ofc
The problem is there’s no space for constructive criticism in kpop! Fans wanting better vocal performances from Sakura have a right to voice that. Unfortunately, Le Serrafim antis have jumped on the bandwagon and the genuine criticism has been drowned out by plain hate and bullying. In the end, HYBE will do nothing because this comeback has been extremely successful.
I agree! Overly hateful people make any kind of constructive discussion in kpop near impossible - it’s hard for people to criticize Sakura’s vocal ability with honest intentions without having an anti co-opt that message and turn it into something overly hateful
sounds like you just like your "artists" to be more like "influencers", bc how are you going to not want a singer to be good at their job? I'm sure you like her as a person but she really needs some work or more practice to be considered a an artist. they need to get them some singing coaches.
They’re not just singers, though. That’s a huge part of my problem in this criticism is that an idol’s work is judged solely by the weakest area of their talents, it seems.
No kpop idol I’m aware of would consider themselves simply a singer. There’s a mountain of other responsibilities on and off the stage that come with the job description. In this way, I can appreciate an idol for being a great singer, yet also not condemn another idol for not being a great singer
I think its important to realize that there are different levels in the importance of skills the baseline of the most important skills are singing/dancing (rapping if relevant) then you have the secondary skills which would be things like variety shows, modeling, etc
Its great to have variety show skills but its not more important than singing but then also its not like you can be a great singer and not have some variety show skills@@choujimi
@choujimi but the thing is is singing is a big part of their job. They record songs, they realese albums, they perform on shows, they go on tour, to hundreds of places and sing their songs to an audience. Yes, an idol is not just singing and dancing and encapsulates a whole lot of other things. But singing is like their biggest (and honestly it's their main) job.
@@choujimi idk i just think its not a good look when they are advertising the idol to be a vocalist when she doesn't't really sing well. It is common for idols to be the focal point of all and not so much their talents, but I think its the fault of the company.
They set the idols up/ advertise them to be talented in specific areas, in this case vocals, but don't choose people who are talented or trained in that aspect. So whenever the idols are shown to be bad or not properly trianed in the talent or position they are advertised to be good at, the idol is heavily criticized.
I am not saying she is a bad Idol because being an Idol in Korea doesn't really mean you have to be a a good singer, but if she is going to be adversited as a vocalist they should give her lessons so she doesn't get so much backlash in the future.
Back to what it means to be an artist, in terms of singing, she is not one.
I will say say these here no matter how many times these beautiful woman gets vocal training for her voice which mind naturally shakes and trys to improve you guys will still bully her emphasis on the word bully
Yes bullys that's what your doing we are making videos about it, posting telling her to do better no matter how many times we say it even if its coming from a genuine place. As she's more coments even if she's improving as long as she gets on that stage during encore her confidence shakes because she knows you will write about it talk about it,analyse it. So yeah that's what you guys are bullys
I will say it no matter how generally you can sing high notes if you aren't able to sell your self as a product in front of people you will never be seriously successful. You have to have a brand charisma ability to draw attention be able to stand out when your in the room be marketable. Even your western artist have to fill in this criteria to get bigger take for example taylor she claims to be your friend, making you friendship bracelet that's marketability and that's what kpop is all about so sing as high as ariana and you can't even attract attention you will remain at the bottom and that's a more useful skillful especially in a group than belting out so much high notes
I don't agree with sakura getting hate but the criticism she's getting is valid imo. I don't think it's asking for much that someone's who's job is performing should be able to sing, not like Whitney ofc but they should be able to hold a tune
I think you're just trying to defend it but its not working or making it any better i feel
People are taking this too seriously. For K-pop standards, many of the chosen trainees who debut cannot sing or rap. They are chosen for their visual, dancing, personality, or charisma. We know this but keep acting surprised when many of them can't sing. Sakura is not the only K-pop artist who cannot sing, many can't. Out of 100, a good 10 percent can sing while the rest cannot (this is for boy groups too not just the girls). The people who actually can sing mostly never debut in a group because they don't ''fit'' the K pop group image. Sixteen showed us this when Mingyoung didn't debut (but was the best singer out of all the trainees, even out singing Jihyo), but Dahyun and Tzuyu were chosen over her (who weren't as good vocally, and at the time weren't good in dancing or rapping).
Jamie, Aliee, Yuhnway and other singers like them are vocalists but never are in K pop groups, but soloists. Instead the industry uses people who aren't the strongest singers and look for dancers/entertainers.
Sakura should have improved in her vocals, but we know most groups don't practice vocals. It's dancing and performance that matters. Most groups mouth their songs in music shows/concerts and focus on the dancing. I feel she either needs to become a rapper or improve. Because choosing to sing and looking uncomfortable isn't the best thing because people expect vocals despite knowing she cannot sing.
I say you truly know whos a vocalist after the 7 years are up, because you see who's singing and taking the time to craft their music, over those who just go into dancing or other things.
There aren't vocalist in K pop. The only one so far I've seen for a female group is Belle from Kiss of Life. She's not only just singing or is good at it, she's a vocalist who knows how to use her voice and is in constant control.
This is me with somi. I remember back in the ioi days and her debut she got hate for her “nasally voice” im fully cognizant she is not the best vocalist. Or even a particularly skilled one. But after hearing her explain that jyps style only exacerbated her nasally problem and when she switched companies she was able to sing in a more comfortable style that she favored, i no longer held the belief she wasnt trying to improve her vocals. Simply that she needed the change of environment to adhere to her specific needs. Even though somis voice still has a certain nasal quality to it she is a more confident performer over all. I hope sakura can find the same type of environment and vocal coaching that can help her too.
How is asking for less lines "trying to put in effort"? You're confused, Choujimi. What Sakura has been giving is the antithesis of effort.
She’s putting in effort in other areas of performance. She’s improved drastically in dance and stage presence since joining le sserafim, but that gets lost in discussions like these
Regarding sakura I think HYBE should try to help her out with her vocal situation (if they haven’t already I don’t know their situation). But she has definitely improved in every other way, and she is clearly giving it all in performances.
We hope she improve vocal and we wait like she was at first izone who lack in dance at first until she improved it... love u sakura❤❤❤
The thing i dont get about well they have so much time to evolve, like yes and no. They have a schedule where they arleady have so much to do and it doesnt suprise me when they dont have time. But also if you do something a lot you should maybe get better or it should get easier for you, kind of.
Yeah. Somi herself said in a interview that she regrets not taking her time as a trainee because she no longer has time to train and practice like she used to. (Ironic considering shes a soloist who doesnt even have frequent comebacks. Shes more of a model/influencer. Showing up to red carpets and modeling gigs) but if *she* feels this way with her promotion schedule i can only imagine how busy full time idols are.
The group has consistently been doing great but they can always be better, especially with a divine/angel concept - you wanna see something as close to perfect as possible. There's big money backing them, big concepts being attempted; of course a part of idols is entertainment value and personality (I'm a freaking Jin stan like, I know the pain of this situation lol) but they've set themselves up for expectations that leave you feeling disappointed when they're not met during live performances. Every time I watch Easy it's clear Sakura is not having an easy time, defeating the entire concept lol (tbh none of the members look like they're having a suuuper easy time).
I like Sakura a lot and she's honestly a great idol (in the way Jin is a great idol to me 💀) but it's a jarring dissonance that won't go away until she levels up significantly.
I just do not see the conversation being as 'unfair' to sakura (the productive and non hateful conversations) because... how is it unfair to expect an idol who's job is being a singer to be able to hold a note while standing still? I personally think the conversation and criticisms are understandable
you are all just mad because you don't understand kpop
i've been in to kpop since 2009 and let me tell you something, one day you have to admit kpop isn't about talent and never will. AND THAT'S OKAY.
not as long as u (2011) but totally agree! sometimes i like vocals from people that arguably not technically "amazing" but decent enough or i just love their tone and they know how to work it haha. I had that with metal and rock music before i got into jpop and kpop so i was already open to music sung by "amateur singers".
Sakura can’t sing and need more practice. Im sick of people saying yes she is doing her best, she isn’t.
Well she did improve from her debut to easy
So she is trying.
Where do you see the improvement? In Easy she has 2 lines and they are autotuned out of this planet, the whole problem is that she has not improved whatsoever. @@selenophile6405
However im going to have to hold the “13” years argument to the fire here there are a plethora of things that can go into becoming a good vocalist and we as an audience have no idea how hard she really tried, if she sustained vocal injuries, was taught shoddy techniques or anything like that so while i understand people believe theyre giving valid criticisms theyre basing them off of assumptions and judgements that may not be true.
I’m going to be very honest, I’m still not seeing what exactly is “nuanced” about an Idol not at the very least being able hold a note. It’s a lil funny.
I don’t know how else I can present this - I don’t see Sakura’s poor vocal ability as deserving of nuance. It’s objectively poor in quality, and people are allowed to draw their own conclusions about whether they care about it or not.
What does deserve nuance is the way that her vocal ability is used to describe the shortcomings of the kpop industry at large. I think there’s a lot more that goes into that idea than just “idols need to sing better”
@@choujimi oh ok 👌🏾 Sorry if I came off as rude 😅.
But yeah as a Sakura Ult, it does pain me seeing other using her vocal abilities basically as a shield to K-pop as a whole. Now I don’t excuse that encore but lawd… this was def stretched by kpop stans. I actually have a theory to why she might be struggle with singing.
@@bbi2.052 It didn’t come off as rude! It’s definitely my fault - I have a hard time tackling the larger ideas surrounding this issue, since there are so many of them. This topic is quite a big one with a lot of moving parts, and it seems like it is way bigger than just Sakura for most people 😭
Bbiiii
@@bp-u-will-always-be-famous HIII AGAIIN 🥰
SHINee was the first group to be taken seriously as dancers even though having choreography was standard since the beginning. The expectations for dance have only grown from them, and the kpop training system adjusted accordingly. Sakura herself is the biggest example of how good training and effort can improve an idol, because for the bulk of her Japanese career, she couldn't really dance either. Similarly, with 5th gen, we're seeing a rise in skilled rapper again (especially in girl groups, beyond an "idol rapper").
Will the change happen any time soon? Probably not since like you said, many people just don't care. But the industry definitely has the capacity to change
It takes guts to make this video, I'll give him props for that. Also, as a once, I have been in his position lol
Choujimi realizing he opened a can of worms and making another video to clean up the mess--that's a content creator W imo.
Do people really HATE her? Or are they holding her accountable/critiquing her? Because all I see is people coming at the entire group for putting all their effort in “dancing and dieting” meaning choreography and their looks. I don’t see people blaming Sakura more than they blame the company. I guess I’m just not as deep into kpop as I thought lol
They've been dragging her on twt
@@purpleeyebrows19 are telling the truth? Or actually dragging? Because i saw twitter and all I see are delulus saying that she redeemed herself with the backtrack performance
@@chipchipcheerio nah I've seen some tweets calling her untalented and questioning why she's in le sserafim. Don't get me wrong I'm in the camp of those who think she definitely needs to improve (esp because I'm a sakura fan and I want to see her get better) but there has deffos been tweets straight up hating not just her but the whole group because of the encore. If you go into the comments of their easy encore video at mcountdown they're getting cooked in the comments as well. Both criticism and straight up hate
I dont know what's happening behind the scenes, but even Yunjin sounds not good, and she is the main vocalist, so what do people want to hear from Sakura?
Sadly, Yunjin even regressed since she's in Le Sserafim. I imagine she had a lot of potential and basics down as she did musicals in school and was even SM trainee at some point, but I don't think any vocalist want to go to HYBE.
But I think it's fair from people to expect Sakura to at least stay on key while singing, especially because we have subs from Aespa, Nmixx, Mamamoo and so on who are clearly enough developed singers.
@AB-yk2pq have you noticed sakura also has regressed vocally since joining le sserafim. Granted she never got many lines in izone but I don't remember her sounding like this...
@@AB-yk2pqI think its similar to... the ballet-to-idol cases, in some way? The opera singing style is very different to the idol-pop-airy singing style. It takes time, effort and even professional help to change to the other style. Unfortunately, Hybe probably didn't help at all, which makes Yunjin approach the songs with what she can do. It's really sad...
There sre groups where the idols can't exactly hold a note, but there is a way that their producers snd sound engineers ensure that the part the individuals are given makes them sound good, in that their encores and even live shows, they never sound bad.
Source should just find a way to mask her incompetence so that she may not sound bad on any given occassion. Or just make her idk....😅
You would be shocked at what companies will let slide in terms of “masking incompetence” i was a huge fan of everglow when they first came out. The one criticism they got the most was that mia, one member, sang half the lines in every title track. Now why would a company give one member half the lines in a SIX member group. Favoritism? Nepotism? No. A demo version of their song “adios” leaked and it turns out, the lines used to be distributed evenly, but the other members sounded,,, so bad. So questionable… so not good, that the final version was mia singing half the song. Why did they even give that song to everglow when half them members sounded so questionable I cannot tell you. But its actually not completely unbelievable that a company will give a group a song based off of branding and vibes and not skillset
@@kidawesomeness123 are vocal coaches that expensive in Korea or what?
Half of these idols might not even make it past a soloist career. Just brand deals, and maybe some movie appearances. But with K-drama fans already pointing out Boa's incompetence for acting, no one will be safe from trolling and criticism when they decided to take that route. 😭
@@donttalk372its actually not a lack of vocal training, but company trend hopping. I remember watching this ex trainees video on her time in the industry(her name is gina maeng if you want to look up her channel) she spent 10 years as a trainee, like 5 companies and she never debut) she said that vocal training heavily depends on the companies STYLE. Not actual beneficial skills. It shocked me. She said jyp tried to make her do a deep soulful rnb sound when her voice was naturally higher. But at the time, jyp wanted a style that would match the trends. So she ended up being assigned a lot of aretha franklin songs and other artists that did not make sense for her voice. She even had a yg vocal coach on her channel and the vocal coach said the same thing basically. The trainees practice songs based on whats trendy at the time. Hailee steinfeld, olivia rodrigo etc. even in xg’s documentary they mention studying a lot of rnb and hip hop artists like lauren hill, which makes sense because they are a rnb and hip hop influenced group. So it looks like companies focus training more on vibes and style and not individual talents.
Which makes sense but also doesnt? I personally feel like kpop companies depend too much on positions. So when they find someone that matches the look and sound of the group they want to make, they assign that person the position they think they should do but then neglect other parts of their training. In lesserafims case, kazuha was a trainee for two months before being selected for lesserafim. She was a ballerina before and had no experience even speaking Korean let alone training for vocals. YET (if you watched lesserafims documentary) you will see that kazuha replaced a VERY talented trainee who was vocally skilled and a good dancer. (Ruka i believe was her name). They had a perfectly good trainee in the lineup and replaced her with someone who “fit” better. And now they depend on chaewon and yujin to sing because the other girls in the group werent cast for that specific purpose and they neglected to find trainees who were more well rounded in skills over all. (That and the other vocalist they had (garam) got bullied out of the group. Im. Sure hybe couldnt predict that only 2 of them members would be vocally carrying the group, it was supposed to be 3)
@@kidawesomeness123 it is all hybes fault. Right now in the era of mediocrity, every group is competing to see who can see the worst and it's sad honestly. Kpop blinds you with the visuals and netizens allow this and along the line realize the group has no vocals and start blaming the company.
I think that we are all to blame here. Us for making it trend that you don't need to be vocally talented, and for the companies capitalizing on that same trend to feed the masses.
I think this is also one of the reasons why most old kpop netizens are always crying about missing the previous generations. Because they actually had to work for it. Both vocals and performance. Most of them started out ugly and now have work fone to appeal to a broader audience.
At the same time, in the era where everyone is going viral every 15 minutes, the rags to riches story doesn't appeal anymore. And companies are just capitalizing on the next trend.
I really hope that I am not the only one who looks at some of these groups and feels like some of them might even make it to soloist levels at this point.
But anyways what is done is done. We shall just have to wait and see how netizens react to these.
That's nice.
if SM is the one who experiments the most, JYP has to be the one who only plays safe until recently. I have never seen this company go creative or crazy and give something that's unseen to their groups. They just go with what the public has experienced. But only recently they started experimenting I think. With Nmixx and Vcha. I guess there was no occurrence of mixx pop in K-pop, or at least as a concept of a group. and witch Vcha debuting an American girl group, JYP has been the first company to debut an American group.
I love Le Sserafim and I love Sakura. I do wish she would work on being a stronger vocalist, the big point of kpop is the songs and you should be able to sing well. But I also kind of don't care? Like I don't like Sakura any less because she isn't a strong vocalist
Since people saying she can’t sing and got bad vocals then ig the best thing for her to do is don’t sing at all to avoid the comments. Ik a lot of people care about live singing but for me it all comes down to is the music good if it’s good then ima listen if it’s not then ima move on.
6:02 I'm sorry but that is just the nostalgia talking 😭 2nd and 3rd gen had "visual" and "variety" as official positions. K-pop didn't become mainstream (at least in the west) until BTS got big and they aren't the greatest vocalists. Hell, Blackpink is the most popular girl group right now and they barely put out any music. 2nd gen had more outstanding vocalists, sure, but I'm not what do they mean by "putting in the hard work into making kpop seem more credible".
I don't think it's useful to box idols into one thing or another, and people are free to criticize idols as performers, but I don't see anything wrong with acknowledging that a massive segment of the audience are there for the parasocial relationship and the sense of community. Ultimately, those are the people organizing streaming and voting for the awards. Of course that is who companies are going to prioritize.
If Sakura doesn't want to significantly improve her singing, that's her choice. And aside from that, she has plenty of other very positive sides.
If there's a way for her to improve, I also gladly accept if she went down that route.
I won't ever outright hate anyone. She doesn't deserve a completely negative take.
it's her choice yeah, but that doesn't make it a good one
Agree with your point about SM. Hence, HYBE needs to stay away from that company.
I feel like this genre of criticism is the same as when people criticized lia for not being a good dancer.
I was waiting for this video
I think the quality of your takes has been great affected simply because you don't care if the idol is talented vocally you just like them for them and I think that is really not allowing the ability to fully understand and put your shoes into what the other side is saying to be able to properly respond to it
That isn’t really how I feel. I would be critical of an idol if they put in zero effort for every aspect of their career. If they showed up to performances putting no effort into singing, dancing, group choreography, etc., I would completely understand the criticism.
I defend Sakura because I can see that she is trying in other areas of performance besides singing, not just because I like her for her
I worded that a bit wrong. I did get that listening to the video, you look for effort and I should've said that in my response for some reason I just didn't. Regardless what I'm saying is I think that its great to make a video based on feelings but its also important to be able to put yourself in the opposing arguments feelings before speaking @@choujimi
It's good that you didn't black out the names of the people who were being rude and dismissive towards you. They should be called out, even if you weren't being negative yourself in doing so. There's a difference between being an ass and giving constructive criticism, and it's honestly appalling to me how all the comments here are only praising your own critical thinking skills and failing to acknowledge that part of what led to this follow-up was actually pretty toxic. And don't come for me saying I'm being delicate, I know for a fact that the majority here are gen Z and millennials, and we already know well enough how annoying it is being called special snowflakes.
I don't 100% the arguments saying she shouldn't have returned.
1. She's been doing this for so long what else is she supposed to do? even if she was 100% talentless the industry holds onto her and has kept her in this field for years. What other experience does she have to take to a 9-5?
2. She has the ability because we have seen it for years, but I think she is lacking confidence. Ever since IZ*One people have ripped into her and that would kill my confidence too. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but after IZ*One she wasn't even sure if she was going to be an idol again because of how the public treated her. You can hear in her voice when she sings live that she's nervous in how she sounds and her body language. She always sounds like she's on the edge of tears to me when she sings now. And while constructive criticism is good, people rip into her about her live singing. some people go way overboard in what they say. These idols see the comments and are people.
3. Her vocal ability isn't at its peak right now, but she is still a great performer in my opinion
In my opinion at the end of the day it comes down to expectations, from the start I didnt go to le sserafim for good vocals, if I want that then I'll just listen to RV. The thing is as much as le sserafim tries to give the image of boundary pushing they're a pretty cookie cutter group. Fearless was as good as a debut can be and antifragile an amazing follow up so peoples expectations were growing bigger and bigger, but since the start we knew that only Yunjin and Chaewon were good vocalists. Imo the high expectations came crashing down with Easy a very uninspired project whose whole purpose was probably to be released before Coachella so they can perform Easy and smart. So in the end all the high expectations that were unanswered came directly to Sakura and the bad performance in the encore. Everyone knew she couldn't sing but the fact that they keep winning creates the question as to why they're so successful. Some people give valid and constructive criticism but others just straight up hate and try to push down the group and elevate others (for example people saying this could not be Aespa thats a real group)
Honestly I felt the new mini album was uninspired tbh, their debut and 2nd mini album was so good and the unforgiven album was alright (even if it was a glorified repackage) but their newest one didn't do anything for me I was just getting blanks from the songs ngl. Also fearless was their debut :)
@@purpleeyebrows19 oh true true thnx. Honestly my mind forgets unforgiven and thinks of fearless as unforgiven. That album as you say was a repackage the honestly standout was flash forward imo the best Sakura song
so much debate over somebody who just isn't a vocalist.. like if she is tone deaf/ lack's control of her voice despite so many years in training with little improvement what's the point of even talking about it THIS MUCH, she won't change.
I dont like letting untrained people who are u deserving taking jobs from talented people becayse they wanna become famous the easy way but sakura being terrible is our fault we streamed the music and helped them if you want her to get better or others criticism is needed and stop listening to the music
LMAO YAPPANESE 😭😭 alsi didnt many izone members admit that they improved alot more after izone becuase izone was not developing their skills just maintaining them enough for a performance
Tbh, I prefer the maintenance of skill over neglecting the skills, especially for skills that aren't rlly important to the idol and how people view them. Seeing idols unable to perform and regress without recovery is disappointing, to say the least.
Imo, fans need to stop accepting and defending idols who r unable to hold up live. I'm not asking for everyone to be Little Mix, Mamamoo, or Destiny's Child but like... the job of an idol is to draw attention and a lot of times I just want to click off with this newer gen
sakura's fancams are the best nothing can change that for me , singing or not it's just a part of one /100 aspects that make her a great idol to root for as a fan . Love you sakura keep doin your best and I hope hybe will hellp you and ik they can :D
the 13 year argument doesnt make sence because we know she didnt learn shit in japan
no really she only learnd bad habits
Don’t walk your opinions back bc of some freak netizens
i think every member in every group should have on "job" (forgot how to spell the word with pur.. and forgot it in german as well lul)
and sakuras is not singing we have yunjin and cheawon for that
it would be better but as long as she can sing in the studio i dont care
Thx
Not gonna fix it tho@@AB-yk2pq
Well ofc sakura is gonna sound decent in the studio they literally process and alter her voice to sound better. I love sakura but you have to admit she does need to improve at singing esp live as well otherwise we're just gonna keep on having this conversation every le sserafim cb and plus I think it's reasonable as an idol you should be able to at least stay on key
I admire the fact that you admitted that your take was a blind defense of Sakura, but even though you see the arguments against what you said right there you still try to defend her terrible singing abilities because of "Sakura's intentions". What do intentions have to do with this topic, it's not about what your intentions are, it's about your willingness to progress as an idol and the constant polishing of your abilities whether it's singing or dancing. It's the new generation of kpop fans that don't put any emphasis on whether someone can sing or dance live, the older generation was built on live performances from kpop idols.
There was no autotune back then and bigger portion of the promotions were the live performances by idol groups.
So if a group couldn't perform live the crowd was unsatisfied and there would be a backlash from fans which is completely justified.
This is exactly how it is in other fields, you are expected to maintain a certain level of performance and whether you are extremely talented or not people will judge your performance and compare to others and that's just how the world works. If you don't perform up to the standards you will be get a backlash and in some cases it might lead further to a replacement.
That's simply how it works in the world that we live in and there is nothing wrong about it, if someone performs better at a certain task they are more deserving of the spot, simple as that.
Coming back to your take on intentions, every single idol has good intentions, they want to do good, they want to be liked by everyone, they want to be popular, they want to look good but it's meaningless if they don't put enough effort into it, this is their job and they need to improve in all the aspects as their career goes on, you can't settle as soon as you get the job.
Sakura has improved her dancing and her stage presence, her personality is also quite adorable but that doesn't take away from the fact that she has not improved her singing whatsoever for the 13 years of her being in the industry. Don't get me started with the whole "she didn't have time to improve her singing or people hold the 13 years of experience over her head, but the focus on vocal performance hasn’t really been there until she got into le sserafim". We are talking about an "IDOL" that had 13 years to learn how to sing, we are not talking about being exceptional at singing we are talking about learning how to sing simple songs that don't require much vocal skills although in my opinion that's an incredibly low standard for 13 years.
Once again we are not talking about some grandma that is 60 years old and living on some farm and having no vocal lessons at all for her entire life, we are speaking about a girl that has been in the music industry for over 13 years and a girl that had plenty of singing lessons, her dream was to perform on stage and that includes both singing and dancing.
On a further note just to make things clear people train for years to get the chance to become idols and even after their debuts they still put incredible amount of efforts to improve in every possible aspect of performing on stage. There are so many idols that have improved massively in singing, dancing, face expressions, enunciation or learning a language to interact with their fans.
Fans can point out that HYBE is not doing their job and not putting enough emphasis on Sakura's singing but let's be completely honest here, we've seen idols taking the matters into their own hands and taking extra lessons outside of their company, in some instances they even requested their companies to find them extra lessons in dancing or singing.
Those lessons are taken after either a backlash from their own fans or when the idol is unsatisfied with their own level of performance and has the willingness to improve, it also comes with the fact that most idols want to work on themselves and actually improve so that they can make their fans proud.
During all those years we've seen incredibly skilled dancers (usually bad singers) take extra singing lessons so that they don't hold anyone back, we've seen great singers(bad dancers) taking additional dancing classes so that they don't look stiff while performing a dance choreographies but there has also been cases where incredibly talented dancers or singers sought after additional lessons outside of their companies to perfect their craft or get some new fresh ideas to not stagnate.
There are countless idols that are a prime example of "willingness to improve" sadly Sakura is not one of them when it comes to singing.
13 years is an absurd amount of time to learn how to sing a simple song, it's absurd to say that someone that has been in a music industry for 13 years can't sing at all.
You have to be incredibly delusional to even defend that person, there is literally no way in hell that anyone in music industry with that much experience can't sing a simple song.
We can take anyone from the street with zero singing abilities and after 3-5 months of training they will be able to sing a song (there are studies on this) so how come some fans are still delusional about the fact that Sakura has been an idol for 13 years and didn't get the right vocal training, that is some high ass copium right there and even if that's the case she has had more than enough time to take additional lessons on her own to improve her vocal abilities to a bare minimum.
I've followed Sakura since Iz*One and she is incredibly sweet and has a great personality, she has good visuals and has improved her dancing quite a lot since then. She shines whenever there is any sort of content from Le serrafim and it's very enjoyable to watch but I am not a delusional kpop stan and I won't defend someone's inability to sing when it's completely justifiable to critique. She brought a lot of popularity to the group from Iz*One into Le Serrafim but let's be real here, she has not improved her singing at all and that's simply a fact and that's also why people see it as an issue. Even the members of the group have improved since joining so why can't Sakura improve her singing.
Why do people always praise Chaewon or Yunjin, it's because these two are constantly improving since their debut and even though I would like to, we can see that this doesn't apply to Sakura. There is a reason as of why Chaewon and Yunjin are getting praised the most and why their following is the fastest growing one, it's because of their abilities to perform whether it's during the MV or at a live show, they are the stable talent that keeps on getting better, they are the pillars of the group even more so now than they were before and it's very evident.
I didn’t intend to defend Sakura with my points in this video. While I fully respect that people place a lot of importance on vocal performance, I am not someone who does, and I don’t believe I ever will be someone who criticizes an idol’s vocal ability
The only “defense” in this video is more of a defense for myself: while I love the performance aspect of kpop, I don’t find criticizing idols over their performance ability worth my time or energy. That’s not why I like kpop. Kpop is something I enjoy as a hobby, and that’s where I’ve decided to check out of this discussion
I don’t mean to dismiss the wants or desires of other kpop fans, I just don’t have as much stakes in this conversation as I thought I did - that’s what this video is about
Sure enough but you can't deny the fact that her inability to sing is undefendable anymore, also what I said is not solely addressed towards you and this video but there are plenty of comments coming from delusional fans that are bashing on people for simply stating facts and that's not how it's supposed to be. We need to address things that are wrong or things that need to be improved and Sakura's singing is one of those things. The whole point of criticizing should be to make improvements/adjustments whether it's related to a label not doing a proper job or an idol needing to improve in a certain area.
I've personally started looking at artists/singers from a different perspective when I first started going to different concerts. Fans feel incredibly disappointed when they go to a concert after spending a lot of money on a ticket just to get a lip syncing performance or witness an atrocious singing by their favorite artists. There is strong feeling of "robbery" (not sure if I can find a better word for that) or getting lied to. Before that I used to only care about how the song sound in the video now I simply don't go to a concert of a group or a solo artist that doesn't perform well live because I don't want to be disappointed.
I believe that a lot of the fans are trying to point out that issue since the group is getting more and more exposure from international fans and more and more groups are getting their world tours and western audience put a way more emphasis on live performances and are not afraid to criticize someone that is lip syncing or having an incredibly bad singing performance. There could be a case of Le serrafim performing at Coachella or at a big event in Europe and if they can't improve until then there will be even more backlash from the fans guaranteed.
I like them and I vibe to their music and I won't stop listening to it just because they are bad singers, I simply want them to improve and address the areas that need improvements. I already know that they can't perform live because I've seen multiple events when it underwhelming to say the least, on the other hand I would only go to a concert of a group that gives the fans a show every time they perform and can actually sing their songs live.
You might be like me before I went to a concert of a group I liked and felt robbed but when you experience it yourself you might have a completely different perspective on things.
PS. I have dyslexia and it's 5am so if I made any stupid mistakes typing please forgive me.
@@choujimi
This comment is so much just to say you don’t like one Kpop idols voice. Like it’s beyond pathetic how serious you made this situation out to be when in the real world with people who touch grass do not care nearly as much as you made it out to be.
@@parisknight1840 Not my problem that you are uneducated and label unskilled/underdeveloped = not liking someone's voice. Go back to elementary school kiddo
Imagine not being able to sing your own song
I still agree that sakura is a bad singer and that there is no excuses for that, but then again, I am a ex le sserafim fan and I'm now an anti so what say for I have on this?
Some ppl just can't sing no matter the amt of training. Singing is a gift. Not a skill that can be wrought out of nothing. I just don't get why they hired a person who can't carry a basic note as an idol singer. That's like hiring a person who can't even boil an egg as a chef. Even your own workplace won't keep you around if you can't do the job you were hired for. What makes her case different?