The Ultimate LOOSE to TIGHT Fighting Game Tier List
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2024
- #fightinggames #tierlist #loose
I'm killing the loose/tight conversation NOW!
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>Looking for a new fighting game
>Ask the GameStop employee if the new fighting game is tight or loose
>She doesn't understand
>Bring out a diagram explaining what's tight and what is loose
>She laughs and says "it's a good game sir"
>Buy the game
>It's tight
As max stated: tight doesn't mean bad.
@@user-n9990 Subjective. Samurai Showdown is my favorite fighting game franchise because its emphasis on knowledge checks and out witting your opponent who basically plays the same game as you. You chip at each other's health until you find an opening in your opponents playstyle and capitalize on their vulnerabilities. I find that more fun then watching your character in a feature-length combo because you couldn't block the 5th 50/50 mix up in a row. I'm not a fan of taking turns going from block string to blocking until someone messes up. Not to mention, I'd rather lose to someone who outsmarted me, than to someone who simply picked a better character than me. Not saying "tight" fighting games don't have obvious metas or anything, but it is WAY less obnoxious than the "loose" fighting games, and the balance is more confined. A low tier character in Street Fighter is not as unviable as a low tier MVC character.
Edit: I am not sure where you are getting this trend from. SF is still one of the biggest games out there and it's on the tighter side of the spectrum. Despite it's flaws, people still enjoy it. Fantasy Strike is an amazing fighting game, and it's tight as all hell.
If you mean tight fighting games aren't as much as a visual spectacle as loose games, then sure. Visually, loose games are more entertaining for the casual audience to look at, but the only people who care if a fighting game is visually exciting are the spectators, not much the players. The players mainly care if the gameplay is fun and intuitive (excluding netcode, art style, etc.).
Context since they deleted the comment: They basically said tighter games tend to be less fun than looser games. And basically, I'm saying what's fun is subjective.
damn a greentext on youtube that actually got me to exhale through my nose, upvotes to you sir!!
@@TheBigSad8247 Fantasy Strike is not an amazing FG lol, it’s okay at best imo
out of many places i expected the creepy wet greentext
in a maxdood comment section is not one of them
Looseness = (speed * options) ^ bugs
This guy gets it. Max should hire you
@BDG Hahahaha! Nice try tho. It does not equal speed. You need to play more to get "looseness" in a game dude but keep at it.
siense👩🔬👨🔬🧑🔬📈
Where is Decision Making in this equation
@@nekierin6402 decision making would be an outside variable in some other equation
Love lists like this over the standard “Perfect vs shit” tier list
Yeah, this is more about the mechanics rather than the preference of people.
Same.
TierMaker's also got Alignment Charts. Max could make one with one axis being Loose to Tight, and the other from Shit to Perfect.
@@fiammaorsmth9840 Sometimes the game being shit invertedly makes it fun tho
Hokuto no Ken opening the loose category and Fantasy Strike opening the tight category is a metric that this is gonna be a good list
Really think footsies should be the tight rep but fantasy strike is good too
Dude, listening to you talk about all this and your understanding of fighting games is so enrapturing. Love hearing this kind of thing
I barely play fighting games and I could listen to him talk about them for hours
I've always loved fighting games but always been terrible at them. This whole channel is like a secret inner sanctum that I never thought I'd be a part of.
Honestly I wouldn't mind seeing a part 2 where you go over the rest of the games on this list. I actually really enjoyed this discussion.
I also enjoyed the Fantasy Strike shout out, even if it's not your cup of tea. It truly is the most strike-throw game that has ever strike-thrown.
Imagine watching a tier list video where they skip 10 characters lol. Just skipped tekken 3 and powerstone.
Ditto.
FS had made me a better gamer, don't think I'd have picked up SFV or Strive if it wasn't for it, but man does FS makes me chafe. Too tight.
I second this sentiment.
@@FoolsGil Same man, same. I doubt I would have even considered picking up Strive a couple weeks ago had it not been for FS.
That being said, when I picked up Strive I immediately gravitated towards Potemkin because I secretly just wanted to play FS with a better soundtrack.
For me Tekken 7 hits the sweet spot in terms of "looseness". Every character in the game has some sort of unique execution/ decision making that you can get good at. The game inherently encourages you to grind out a character and get good. At the top level you see character specialists with a beautiful synergy of execution, knowledge and reads that's very fun to watch.
This. Fun with friends, even better as competition.
I honestly wouldnt even consider Tekken 7 loose, it would be kinda tight
i think tekken combos are so …. long, getting hit by a mid might launch you to a combo that takes more than 10 sec
The S3 stuff and interactions have made it much looser. Like, half the time I see something and go “ok but why?”
@@depthshade837 not usually
0:46 Hot take, but the spin-off, Chicken Fingers, had a much better combo system, and command grabs were actually useful.
Didn't that game invent the phrase "flippin' n' dippin'?"
I rather play the true spiritual successor "Buffalo Wings" much better roster IMHO
New sauce mechanics took it over the top tbh
KfConsole needs to make a reboot of Chicken Tendeez. It’s basically the company’s Darkstalkers. Very underrated
Fried Chicken thighs had the best synergy in the series, perfect rooster, inventive bone in bone out tag system and the best sizzlest combo structure. Not to mention how oily that movement was, fried chicken thighs is the best.
I think a great way to show looseness is how much player expression is visible through just gameplay. All game has player expression, but how much depends on the game.
Good example would be Melee where commentator Toph, figured out he’s playing Leffen who was using an alt account or something within the first 2-3 interaction when he was playing net play.
@Spirit Watch the video lmao
Another cool example: For a while in ultimate, there were 3 top players using Aegis, and each one had a distinctly different style.
- Cosmos was primarily a Mythra player, he mostly uses bnb combos, gets you offstage and then fishes for F smash edge guard or ledge trap setups. He also likes to tech chase under platforms with lightning buster or up smash.
- MKLeo favoured Pyra. Instead of going for bnb he’ll frequently bait out air dodges or panic options and punish with Dair > imagination. He also goes offstage with Mythra quite a bit more than average.
-Sparg0 had the most dynamic style, often switching character in the middle of his combos and still continuing the string! He also loves to switch multiple times in disadvantage and offstage to mixup his recovery.
Nowadays they each play different characters but it was neat to see their different interpretations of the same character for a while.
@@brain_tonic some did say mythra was like a melee character
I wish Max wouldn't kill this discussion. His description of loose mechanics helped me pinpoint exactly what it was about games that I liked. I made me realize that freedom and unpredictability are absolutely critical in every single one of my favorite games.
I think Pokken's phase shift system (where it switches between 2d and 3d) is an example of a "tight" mechanic that helps increase competitive depth: shifts from 2d to 3d occur when a player fills out the hidden phase shift counter, (in 2d, moves add different amounts of points to the counter on hit) At a basic level, it acts as an anti-infinite system that forces a return to neutral, with the 3d phase only lasting for one heavy hit acting as a second buffer layer to neutral play. At high level play, you need to be actively weighing and changing your move choices and combo composition up based on if causing a shift or staying in the 2d phase would be more to your advantage/optimal:
Maybe you have the other player in the corner, and have to pick between a combo that's safer or does more damage, but the counter is almost full and it'd cause a shift and would let the other player out of pressure, vs one with less immediate returns but would keep you in the 2d phase and your advantage state as a sort of reset. Or maybe you're at low health but almost have full meter, and you have to choose between a higher damage combo that keeps you in the current phase, and one that does less but would cause a shift, giving you bonus meter and allowing you to get burst and use your super and enables health regen.
The system does limit what options you can preform at any given moment and overall combo length (though there are much longer combos people have found and use since Max first tried the game in 2016, I really hope he checks it out again at some point), but it makes high level play way more dynamic and really rewards adaptive skill and punishes flowcharting and empahsizes neutral play. The way the game handles attack heights (where they exist for moves to bypass and punish each other during their active frames, rather then to bypass and punish blocking) also encourages similar values with adapative play, enabling more returns to neutral and reversals, etc.
Overall I'd put Pokken in "Kinda Tight" since while the phase shift mechanic really does constrain your options at any given moment (or rather, results in less optimal upsides), there's a HUGE amount of variety in the playstyle of characters, not just between each character but in how different players of the same character can use them: Two players can use Braixen or Weavile or Mewtwo in very different ways and still be successful and high level play, and low to bottom tier characters still make top 8s or win majors not that infrequently. There's also some pretty nutty tech with some characters and some systemss, like Thermodynamics to use 2d phase moves even in the 3d phase.
Damn, I had no idea Pokkén Tournament had such an involved system for phase shifting. I remember when I tried it for the Wii U, it was probably the easiest fighter to pick up and play that I'd ever tried; Smash Bros. included. I really ought to pick up DX one of these times.
@@Pixygon Yeah, the game's really technical, it's just not really obvious from it's marketing or even at first glance while playing due to how different some of it's systems are (as I said, the height system being for reversals and punishes rather then to open up blocking). If you do check out DX, i'd also be happy to answer questions/direct you to community resources, etc.
@@MajoraZ Ooh yes please, I’d appreciate it very much if you could direct me to the best resources, just in case I do end up picking it up. Thanks!
@@Pixygon If you got a twi tte, then DM me, i'm Majora__Z there
Hell yeah Pokken
As someone born in the 80s, I grew up with the slang use of "tight", meaning cool/awesome etc. So this list kept fucking with me when Max was calling a game tight lol
90s baby
Was thinking after listening to Max explaining how the "Loose vs Tight" is, I was all "Skullgirls is hella loose man. Everyone plays the characters in different ways" and he also puts it there. Tells me he explained his system rather well hehe
I think a great example of 3rd Strike's depth is just by taking any one character and looking at their possibilities. Day 1 of 3rd Strike I picked Urien because he looked cool to me, and after looking things about him up on SRK, I found out that he's got a practical unblockable setup, can input charge moves from a dash with a mechanic I learned called Charge Petitioning, and has got tons of character-specific combo routes that make him incredibly deep and complex, and all of this stuff above combined with 3rd Strike's universal systems like parrying makes 3rd Strike something special to learn and play
Well said man! And crazy thing is everything you just said is all about learning that 1 character so if you take that into account looking at the entire roster the game has a ridiculous amount of depth
Interestingly enough, character specific combos because of height, weight or hitbox are some of my least favorite mechanics in any fg lol. I can stand it in Tekken and scvi because they are few and far between but where it is common is so annoying to me. I don't like having to learn bnbs per character
@@grantgarbour It's a bit off-putting definitely, and it's definitely because I usually fight shotos, all of which Urien has similar if not identical bnb's on, but I don't find it a deal breaker. However in cases like UMK3 where you practically have a unique combo per non-ninja/non-robot character that you should know it's just too much
@@grantgarbour Honestly, I think character specific combos add a little bit more variety. You get to do a little more with the game knowledge that you know that this could work for that character. But if you don't want to learn them, there's always the BNBs that work for everyone. Also character specific combos aren't really BNBs, I would most likely define them as a little bit of cherry on top because you know that certain things work on different characters.
for some reason i read fantasy strike at first and i was hella confused lmao
Something I gathered from this whole conversation is that the games that balance how loose/tight they are tend to be favored more by both competitive and casual players. Take Smash Ultimate, for example. I'd argue that to a casual player that game is simple to pick up and enjoy, but more options open up when players get deeper into competitive play. It doesn't force experimentation and overwealm new players, it gives people the options to play at whatever pace they'd like while still having the Looseness to keep competitive players engaged.
Only reason no one takes smash as a serious fighting game is that it’s a party game the fans made competitive
I pretty much agree. The kinda tight/loose area seems to be the area with the most success. Get deeper into the loose region and it's mostly a competitive players only game that most newbies will never be able to break into, whereas you get too deep into the tight region and you really start to lose hardcore players and are only really met with casual players that prefer having limitations. Of course, there are exceptions (I know GG fans were pretty hostile to how tight Strive was, even while it was more loose than a lot of its peers, and a lot of Tekken fans got sick of how loose T7 was with Rage and the like, even though it doesn't delve very far in the loose region).
However i think that it's easier to balanc loose/tight-ness if your game has like 80 characters.
that's actually a really good description of why Ultimate has done so well, I would love it if traditional fighters could learn something from that.
Like it's so much easier to coerce my friends into playing smash with me than literally any traditional fighting game, they all think it's way too hard to get into. It comes back to the whole thing about how bad fighting games are at the onboarding process for casual players.
@@123bboymeandyou here we go again
"Fantasy Strike is not a bad game" - Maximilian 2022
Thank you.
Fantasy Strike player checking in. Max is absolutely right in that the game is very much designed to be tight as hecc. You have buttons, every button has a purpose, every button has a weakness, and its up to you the player to figure out the strengths and weaknesses of each button to beat out your opponent's buttons. I personally love it because instead of trying to maximize damage or learning core mechanics, I can focus on learning matchups, learning player habits, and general neutral stuff immediately after booting up the game. It is the MOST strike-throw game that has ever strike thrown. It's the perfect game for people who hate training room (though it still has a fully featured training room for when you want/need it).
Incidentally I hate training room.
You could argue that Melee is even looser but that the competitive scene has tried to keep things like certain infinites in check. Even still though there are some crazy matchup and stage specific chain grabs that can just delete stocks, as well as ledge camping that can abuse invincibility frames to timeout opponents.
Melee's placement feels like it'd still be the same for the most part, based on Max's definition, since even with all that it's like only mostly limited to the good characters. Unless *Bowser* of all characters can do stuff and whatnot
@@Lexicon865 Bowser actually has unique tech from his upB, which gives him an efficient way to slide from the stage/platform to a ledge grab.
@SNES Nes As someone who can only play Smash at a casual level, I still find Melee more fun than Brawl in terms of movement and game feel, and slightly more enjoyable than Smash4. Ultimate really managed to find a perfect balance for game feel in terms of speed and balance imo.
@SNES Nes I agree with Nick. Content is great but game feel more important in the long run, and frankly if you're on this topic at all, you should already know that. I recommend Project M/P+ as the actual best factoring in both game feel and content.
@SNES Nes Ultimate is the best when it comes to character roster, but Melee is overall the best when it comes to giving players freedom (particularly because of dash dancing), though Ultimate has some improvements, such as landing lag on aerial attacks reduced to the point that L-canceling is no longer needed, and the run->ground move cancel (which started with run->upSmash in Brawl; in Melee, you have to use a workaround since it's not an actual mechanic in that game).
Capcom vs SNK 2 was DEFINITELY a loose fighting game. So many characters, many grooves, many modes & many bosses
Still has the most flexible version of Ken, yes even more than Smash Ultimate's Ken who was purposely toned down for a more ease of access for Smash's simplified controls. CvS2 just has so many incredible versions of existing characters (yes even the mega green cheese that is Blanka)
Oh yeah Capcom vs Snk 2, you're so loose! Almost like you're begging for it!
CvSnk2: no not there player 1! 😫
@@donnyfortuna4971 I loved playing Blanka
But thats also the best part because for atleast the philly fgc tournaments for that game would be separated by groove making it more interesting and always different . Cvs 2 seriously needs to be redone.
Don't forget E.O. mode! :3 Blanka Ball x 1,000 *shudders*
I agree that T7 is Hella Loose, so many different scenarios can happen in that game that you never expected that it kind of has to be imo.
Nope... 2 combos and you dead
You, Matt, and Justin should take the time to do more of this list together sometime. It’ll be useful getting the perspectives of other people.
As someone who watches Will It Kill a lot, every game that's made it on there goes in Damn Loose and everything that hasn't made an appearance goes in Damn Tight
I just recently got back into fighting games after a nearly 2 decades long break. I bought all the most modern and even previous generation of titles I played long ago. I got MK11+X and SF5 & 4 for example. My favorite to play has been MK11 with Tekken 7 being a very close second place. I did play a ton of Tekken 3 and Tag and I was very pleased to find out everything I learned way back when could still be applied to T7. I will continue to be a fan and tout my fandom as long as they continue to reward legacy investment.
But I can't even put my finger on exactly what it is about MK11 that makes me enjoy it. I'm kind of surprised that most folks seem to crap on the game. My only complaints with it has been that special moves seem to be a bit too difficult to execute and the inputs in general are very obnoxious. When your dancing around with someone in neutral and a spear or w/e comes out when all you wanted to do is poke out a punch for example. And I get especially frustrated, screaming at the game "Oh, finally decided to toss one out did ya?!" But I was hoping this list would help me understand something I'm not seeing. It did not. But cool list anyway.
I don't believe it was on the potential list, but I'd like to nominate Melty Blood: Actress Again Current Code for Mega Loose. Imagine if grooves in CvS2 fundamentally changed your characters movement, special moves, and normals on top of system mechanics. The moon system genuinely triples the roster of the game to 93 playable characters, and within those characters you can find tons of player expression, especially in the high and mid tier characters like c-seifuku and f-akiha (Go1's go to). The aerial mobility and difference in mobility from character to character and moon to moon (c-aoko has triple jumps AND a double airdash) makes the game a beautiful chaotic dance
Hearin max talk about the SFL category brought me to tears from laughing because it so perfectly describes GunZ: The Duel, a game I spent an unhealthy amount of time on in my childhood.
I remember I used to play as this character with black hair and a tank top with dual wielding weapons. Good times
I enjoy Max's tier lists his RE and Dark souls tiers were very fun
I agree with the tekken thing, there's so many things that make the game feel loose. Like, oh if I get a counter hit I get a crazy combo or if their back is turned or depending on the stage with certain charters you could eat 70% combos.
Tekken's big labia probably has something to do with how loose it is!
This is a god like comment.
Even old less comboy heavy tekken has huge swings too.
The movement and 3d hit/hurtboxes across almost 50 characters interacting at all sorts of distances and angles causes a lot of the looseness.
Ah, chicken tendies is one of my favorite fighting games. It has the best story mode as well
The tierlist to top all tierlists, I loved watching this live it was a ton of fun
I been waiting for Max was to do this kind of tier list.
He says he's killing but tier lists actually open the discussion with actual material ahah. This discussion gonna be interesting. I can already see all the reaction videos of people being 'tight' (no pun intended) about max takes
This is a good list because you don't want something too tight and it make you crack in the first minute or something to loose and it's just too much to explore
Honestly is probably one of the better ways to know what type of fighting games you'll like.
I always consider MVC 2 super fun because it's so loose and wild but I couldn't get into Smash Ultimate because it felt stiff after awhile.
It's speed, "stiffness", and subgenre that really forms a fighting game's identity to me in my brain of brains
So this is a good tier list
Yeah, amazing tierlist. Because for me, the shit ass crazyness that was mvc2 was intriguing, but I wasn't skilled enough for it, and even when I understood fighting games and got really good at sf2, third strike and Virtua fighter, I couldn't comprehend the crazyness. Too much stuff going on for me. Perfect list for people based on what they want
A ton of this depends on the actual characters a person plays rather than the game itself. Like if you play Negan vs Kuni II in Tekken 7, Or in KOF, if you play Leona vs Terry. A part of this almost is reflective of what characters Max has played in these games. There's like a standard deviation of one or two spots for some of these games and where they should be.
I feel platform fighters on their own are loose, because of the movement, its like Sakurai pointed out in the Kazuya gameplay showcase they are movement extrinsic,
but I have to say if you want a very loose platform fighter that's Rivals of Aether all the movement options combined with hitfalling it allows for form free combos, that even when dropping a combo you go into a tech chase when in center stage, an edge guard when close to the sides and a juggle when you're at the top.
I agree that the freedom of movement in platform fighters contributes to the overall range of options!
They're more loose due to the movement factor alone, but stuff like not having as much ways to be creative or go wild with playstyles and whatnot could hold them back. Either way, the lowest they'll go would be in the tier Smash 4 is at in (at least the competitive ones because I doubt games like that one Konami game or PSASB would even fit this discussion)
Rivals I'd say would be between Ultimate and Melee, but it's been a while since I've played the game and I've sparingly watched competitive RoA so I could be wrong
Fighting games my dude . Whats next ?!! Wwe games arw fighting games 2 ?!!! Get the hell out here
@@gimmesomechocho7878 Max put Smash on his list, why cant i make a comment about my favorite platform fighter, you know the _sub-genre_ of fighting game smash bros is Mr. know it better. hm
@@dextra_24703 i dont know what you mean by ' Mister ' , but , if you talking about Smash bros , as a fighting game . No my dude . Thats not a fighting game . I dont care if Max put it up there or not . Platform games are not fighting gamea .
Shak Fu is more of a fighting game than Smash bros 😁😁😁
20:00 at the beginning when you were trying to define loose, Melee instantly came to mind. The way we play that game is planets away from what the devs intended.
I would love to see the video where goes over those other games at the end. Hearing Max talk about fighting games is pretty much free serotonin
WatchMojo: Top 10 decisions we disagree with ft. Maximilian Dood
This reminds of reading through the instruction booklet of Bloody Roar: Primal Fury on how being in different forms opened up more cancel windows to the point where in Hyperbeast, you could infinitely use supers and cancel *any move into another* and the fact that I still understand very little of what you could do in that game.
Bloody Roar 1,2,3 and PF/EX are hella loose, BR4 is SFL.
@@HyperbeastTV Never played 4 unfortunately, didn't have a PS2 at the time. Should probably find a work around for that at this point.
I prefer it when a game is loose, allows for more creativity and freedom of expression. BlazBlue CF, P4AU, Melty, MVC3 are some of my favorites because of that, makes the combos fun to watch and gives me something to work towards, even though big combos aren't exactly optimal, but their fun!
Agreed. This kind of game turns the training mode really fun for me too.
Those games all have freedom in the combo routes that allow for so much more expression and enjoyment. Compared to something like Sfv where the optimal combos and routes pick themselves and aren't that challenging.
The entire aspect of finding and picking out combos to learn, that appeal is just lost in the tighter games.
I seldomly invest in labbing, but games like that are an exception - those are the kind of games where you could spend all your time in the lab and it'd be insanely fun just because how big of a playground it is.
@@Steamedhams578 "Compared to something like Sfv where the optimal combos and routes pick themselves and aren't that challenging." You're joking right? There's so many situations in SFV during a match that you have to pick the right combo if you want either Oki, max damage or more VT bar or a combination of the 3.
Something about smash that other fighting game players have a difficult time comprehending is that the game starts before the game starts. Aside from items and stage hazards, the stage itself, the amount of stocks, the time limit, and even the controller port to a lesser extent effect matchups because characters excel and struggle under certain conditions, and natural advantages will form the moment a character is picked. This on top of unparalleled movement options and stage interactions, no definitive answer to any interaction barring a few situational frame traps, and amount of damage dealt not necessarily being the most important factor in character strength is what makes those games as loose as they are. Just layers on top of layers of variables that make it impossible to account for every possible situation.
True but a bunch of those factors also apply as a standard to other fighting games. Smash can turn hell of a lot more chaotic but other games like 3d fighters also bring layers smash doesnt have. Most fighters also bring different guards which also adds a layers smash doesn't have. And i mean standing/crouching guard here. To me at least, movement is what makes high lvl smash unique
Tekken's stages also have various layouts that do affect characters/matchups
That's a good observation
This describes almost every FG, not even just platform fighters. And while most fighters don't have all the movement options(debatable considering KOF and Soul Cal), they usually have another system to make up for it. Like how in 3D fighters they have high/mid/low dynamics. Or in 2D games you have a more traditional strike/throw.
Also there are MANY definitive answers in smash.
@@gtafan110010 Remember that smash melee also use high low attacks, some characters can poke under(or over) the shield and hit you, and there are also aerial attacks that can be delayed to hit low or high and you have to tilt your shield correctly to block it.
Smash games(Ultimate does too I believe) have high/lows but it is not as apparent with some characters or happen as often.
I had a feeling a tier list of some kind was coming. Or a top ten from max.
Good to see that he's rating alot of games not just a few
It's not a tier list. It's a list determining what's loose and what's tight. Not a tier list.
A tier list is "Which game is better than the other."
That's not the case in this situation here.
@@danielsmithiv1279 it's still a tier list. Just of a different kind determining what is tight and what is loose based in his preference which is loose. And also tier list is in the title of the video. Bruh lol
@@zekiel2533 Don't worry. I just listened to Dixie's "My Drip" song to redeem myself for failing to read the video title.
Max has had enough an decided to take matters into his own hands. We appreciate you King Of Games.
This video reminded me of something. I didn't really think about it because I only played it for a couple of hours and deleted the game. Limiting the number of specials in MK11 is an incredibly stupid idea. That's one of the main reasons that turned me off MK11.
Man I totally agree!! The variations suck man, it’s so lame how they basically gutted every characters combo potential by splitting up all the special moves between 2 or 3 variations. Like just give us access to all the characters moves and let us explore possibilities. Also the gear system was not nearly as well done as it was in injustice 2
It depends on how you think about it. Technically every fighting game character has limited specials because the devs could've kept making more. You're looking at it as if they made a fully fledged character and split them into pieces but you could just as easily look at a single variation as a complete character and the alternate moves as an addition to the character.
@@_Jay_Maker_ You aren't comprehending. My point is that a complete character is an arbitrary concept. for example lets say sub zero had all the moves listed in mk11 equipped so he literally had all variations at once. if they added more moves after that and made them equipable to different variations it would still by op's logic be limiting the number of specials despite having all the moves he initially wanted.
@@jeremyroberts8822 MK11s gear system wasn't great, but INJ2 wasn't much better. The grind to get gear was a lot better in MK11, it's just that it wasn't customizable enough. But INJ2, you'd play for hours and get everything for every other character except your main, and even when you got pieces, it kinda just ended up being, "do you want armored look #1, or armored look #2." If they do it again, they need legitimate variety, on top of bringing back MK11s way to unlock the pieces.
MK11 was just a big step back imo. Less fun, less interesting characters, slower pace, and more restrictive. Hopefully they can correct course with the next one.
There's also a distinction between whether a game is tight or loose, or whether it has emergent gameplay. Something like VF is definitely tight as you claimed, but due to the emergent gameplay and the variety of options, it adds looseness to it. KOF is also similar in that regard, the frame data, interactions are quite set in stone to where there's obvious, concrete answers in the game, but due to the speed of the game, options provided in the game as well as the emergent gameplay aspect of it, it adds quite a bit of looseness to it.
3S is both intrinsically loose, as well as contains emergent gameplay. The amount of options handed to you on offense, defense, neutral, the various amounts of ways you can choose to approach your decision making gives you a ton of freedom for how you choose to play. While this adds to it's emergent gameplay style of fast pace, decision making, the game is also emergent in and of itself. Like yin and yang, both complementing eachother which is part of the reason to this day the game is so beloved. Just my thoughts, I love that this topic is being discussed because for future games developers will (looking at you, NetherRealm, early SF5) be forced to add expression to their games and the freedom to let players do as they please, but still hold the structural integrity of the game to where it doesn't become insanity like HnK.
Thank you for making this Max! You are a legend at what you do. Keep on with the amazing content
VF is tight simply because there’s established rules and you can only do so much but it does it in a way to make every character unique yet balanced, it’s the perfect FG in terms of, “Honest and dishonesty” in the right amount.
I would personally switch Soul Calibur 6's position with Tekken 7. Movement differences aside, lethal hits and Soul Charge allow for some nutty variety for combos and damage.
Yeah. I really don’t agree with SC6 being tight. Reversal Edge alone, despite people not liking the Rock Paper Scissors aspect, gives you like 7 different options and somehow even more if you tie. Not to mention the mind games of the threat of ring outs and the crazy positioning to set up for those, while still having the same wall and back turn punishment that Tekken has.
I really liked arcana hearts 3 for the level of creativity you can have not only w/ the arcana system, but for just the variety of moves that every character has. I hope max checks out the franchise soon, as it is a hidden gem within arcsys's library!
Arcana heart 3 rules, but it's full of creepy little girls and really doesn't play well to an audience that isn't into that. That's the only problem with the game in my opinion
@@LargeInCharge77 tho i see your point, I play it for the gameplay, not for the characters.
@@drakenforge4276 same but I'm describing the reason most people aren't even going to pick it up in the first place, and especially the reason that a lot of people are never going to stream it
As a smash player smash 4 is kinda high tbh that game is tight as fuck
So many people completely wrong in the chat for this video, for example someone saying too tight means no fun. Too loose almost always means you make one mistake and your opponent can easily do a combo that kills you at full health and infinite combos. I personally think tight is preferred, but I know many lean the opposite way.
Same. I also like knowing "Right, my opponent has these options and I have these options. My job as an attacker is to enforce my options or open them up with something unorthodox, as a defender it's my job to determine which option they will most likely be going for and do something to beat that."
I like that strategic element, where both of us know what is going on, what our tools are, and what those tools do. If a game is too loose it's like "I have no idea when I'm even allowed to play the fucking game since they can cancel into this safe launching special at 8 different points in this attack string which they can also dash cancel out of to just reset it indefinitely. If I want to beat that, my only choice is to do the cheapest most broken shit I can learn and steal the game. This sucks."
I like games I can sit and have a think about and understand what could've been done in each situation. A lot of the times with loose games the only thing to think about is "Guess I should've guessed better lol."
This is exactly why I can't play dbfz competitively. I play SFV competitively and love knowing "okay to beat x character I need to do y"
What people don't say or realize is those same games where one combo kills tend to have such hard and complicated movement that pulling off that combo in the first place is so difficult by virtue of that insane movement.
Yeah my personal preference is in the middle or slight loose, because I like freedom but infinites aren't exactly fun and interactive gameplay.
Was literally just watching the RE & Souls Tier list videos and then i get the notification for this, Sweet.
>used ex series music
>didnt rank a single sfex game
feels bad
I enjoyed this video a lot. I love the arguments and I agree with the tier list. Max you rock here!
This video is great, I just wish it was longer because on twitch this was at least a 3 hour conversation 😂
Ditto. Was just looking at the playbar and thinking about how I wished the video was longer when it cut to the complete tier list. This was very interesting.
Games so TIGHT they make me go "I just have to lose some weight and I'll be able to fit them just right" but you know that's not gonna happen because they're so damn tight!
Where does baiken go on the tight to loose
She murdered everyone who got close so
You were waiting for this moment weren't you?
You stop that. /velma
Shut up
Yesterday she was hella tight. ;-)
It makes sense (most of the time) as to why I get my ass beat when playing a tight fighting game 😅
Looser games can get you in some BS that is very frustrating, but i also get that it leads to more interesting situations.
That's why I like something that skews to more tighter gameplay, but is also fairly loose.
this reminds me of the Doom eternal debate where within the Doom community some people where arguing that eternal limits player creativity compared to Doom 2016 because some weapons are designed to work better against some enemies like the plasma rifle shredding through shielded enemies even though you still had plenty of creativity if I where to categorize does two games I would say 2016 is hella loose to a detrimental degree where there's not much strategy or player engagement just use whatever weapon while Eternal is Loose there's definitely by design weapons that work better than others in specific situations but there is still multiple ways you can approach a scenario
Bro. I had always just skipped through the video, and I didn't know the chicken tenders was MK9, so I just accepted it as 'the chicken tenders are pretty loose'
Not exactly a fighting game fan but will be watching this! I love watching people love their fav genre
I think a really tight fighting game can be fun. It feels like in a super tight fighting game, both sides know what the other can do, and it comes down to spacing, how well the player knows their character, and managing the few variables that exist (time, meter, etc). Sounds like a duel to me, and those can be pretty awesome. I love that Samshow is a pretty tight game, and I had SO much fun when it first came out.
On the other hand, I totally get the appeal of really loose games. I think core a made the comparison that most fighting games are like classical music (structure and flow) and smash bros (especially melee) is like jazz (fast and spontaneous). I consider myself someone that knows a thing or two about fighting games. I'm not super competitive, but I enjoy playing them, and I know how most of them work. Some fighting games I get really hyped watching (especially at higher levels), but the Marvel games are just total chaos to me. I can follow an 8 way smash brawl better than I can follow most Marvel Vs. matches. To me that shit is pure confusion. Kudos to the folks that figured that mess out.
Exactly! It's cleaner, so much more straight-forward in the technical display of players, just like a game of chess. The paradox in which lack of agency, if pushed enough, comes riyht back around to give you a huge agency over the manner of the fight is just so beautiful to me I can hardly describe it. Tighter games are my favorite.
I love Skullgirls! Hope it continues to live on for years to come!
Oh boy 30 minutes of Max being the "Charlie conspiracy meme" come to life. Time to get comfortable.
I disagree with KoF being placed lower than 3S. Sure, 3S has parries, but KoF's got way more movement options and the Drive cancels.
Wth is 3S anyways?
@@PrisonMike196 Third Strike
I’m genuinely surprised Max was able to condense this down to 37 mins.
Max needs to make a tierlist about guest characters 😂
MAN I LOVE IT!!! You brought memories back A3, A2, 3rd Strike, CVS 2 and a couple of others.
I agree, kof is In a sweet spot between loose and tight. The mobility really makes neutral an interesting thing to play and to watch
Smash 4 is a really weird game for this honestly, especially compared to Ult. I'm obv biased as a s4 Shulk main, the character with the most tech that was super insane which mostly got removed in Ult, but on one hand Ult's speed adds a lot for it as well as some movement being less restricted, while on the other hand it feels like a lot of characters have been homogenized. So much character specific stuff was toned down, practically every windbox was removed, overall the game is just as janky as smash 4, but it's got less individual charm for each character (Note I'm saying this mostly about the base cast, the DLC is insane). Ult has better balance so you *see* some more of what has to offer, but I think smash 4 had a more interesting and diverse (base) roster gameplaywise even if Bayo Cloud and maybe a few other top tiers dominated every tourney. Even at the bottom tiers, Ganon feels like he had more ways to approach him in s4.
Hard disagree. The ways in which the cast got homogenized opened up options for characters. As someone who mained a low/mid tier in Ike in Smash 4, it was definitely highly restricted as to what options you're allowed to do, because too many of your buttons are too slow. In Ultimate the homogenized jump squat and auto-L-cancel means even slow characters can throw out safe aerials. It allows characters like Bowser to feel like he doesn't have a lot of endlag on his attacks because he can cancel out a lot of the lag simply by fast falling. Grounded options are also more accessible for slower characters since you can use standing moves out of a run, it means you don't have to do "the smash 4" run-up shield all the time. Ultimate definitely way looser than Smash 4 in most cases. Your Shulk player bias is showing :)
@@brain_tonic Yeah that is pretty fair, the lowered landing lag across the board does a LOT for the looseness, but at the same time it feels like so many character's gameplans are more the same. I do think Ult overall is more loose but I wouldn't put them far apart from each other, they both are and arent for different reasons imo. that or my Shulk bias is reaching critical mass lmao
In MK11's defense, there are alot of things that allow for character expression: i.e flawless blocking, neutral ducking, wavedashing, etc. It's just a matter of how easy it is to do them. All three of those things are what you see at high levels and never in casual. Main point is: I think every fighting game significantly opens up past a causal level.
I got on my 360 for the first time in forever and booted up mvc2....my first opponent was josh360 doing his damn Ironman infinite...
Fist of the North is soooo fucking good. It's anarchic as fuck and I love it.
All this talk about tightness vs loose makes me feel like this video should be labeled NSFW 😂
Ultimate is kinda tight. Nothing you can do is a suprise to the devs, but there's a good amount you can do. Like Ultra SF4
Don’t need to do super surprising stuff to be kinda loose. Combo routes can get pretty nutty in Ultimate, especially with stuff like z catch aerials or character specific stuff like psi magnet combos and link bomb combos. Movement and general speed of the game is also pretty high which adds freedom. Being able to use standing buttons out of run, having 3 frame jump squat meaning you’re always 3 frames away from being able to use an aerial are also freeing.
I did not know we used 'loose' and 'tight' to describe fighting games. I can't wait to talk to my mom about my favorite fighting games using my newfound words.
I think a good example of "tight" is when you have flowchart characters. Where there's only really one way to play them optimally with only one or two bnb combos
They removed a lot of the higher level mechanics in Smash ultimate compared to 4. No more perfect pivoting or shield dropping, (dropping through platforms while keeping shield up) In terms of universal options I think they removed more than they added. Since also they changed how the c-stick operates being a macro removes the BIDOU control method. (makes the analog stick able to do one frame movement inputs very easily) The only universal mechanic that ADDs to the game imo in ultimate is the change of parries/perfect shield.
They had to scrub that all that ntentionally from the physics engine, when you consider how much of ult is reused assets from 4 at base launch.
I didnt think perfect pivoting added much variety to the game. Compare it to ultimate where characters like Terry and Ken who has charge partitioning, RT Coiling and a lot of kara-cancelling moves and they never removed it in later patches. The C-stick macro actually characters to do those kinda things. It allowed the players of those characters for free flow as most of their moves cancel into eachother. I recall there were a lot of Japanese pro players on the dev team for ultimate and they leaned towards more characters specific tech than universal, and in addition to 90+ matchups. Makes the game very hard and loose. Also the parry mechanic is also good choice for this kind of game as it allows momentum shifts in a match, it just needs to be a lil better. Ultimate is a hard game, and a lot of players are seeing it now.
Yeah. And I don't think Ultimate should be lower, it is still a loose game by itself. But Sm4sh is not a tight game at all.
I feel like Strive would be loose if they would add the Xrd gatling system because that allows all hits to combo into everything else.
Thank you for all you do, brother! And Happy Easter to you and yours 🤝
Loose = Freestyle combos
Hella Loose = Infinites
Super Fuckin Loose = Freestyle Infinites
U nailed it actually. Mk9 liu kang is loose by ur definition forsure
FGC: Loose games are better
Also the FGC: this character breaks the rules BAN them (spoiler they don't get banned)
"WhEn EvErYoNe Is Op No OnE iS oP!!!1!1"- People who forget MK9, where even the objectively bottom 1 Sheeva had broken OP shit, but most of the roster was unusable in tournaments because the top tiers were so damn BROKE
Watchmojo did it, Max reacted, now fighting game influencers/players will follow suit.
I was hoping to see where you'd place Bloody Roar at but it was never put on.. I hope they revive Bloody Roar through Microsoft
Lol I was gonna ask about Bloody Roar 2.
Max, you played yourself doing this; the conversation will only get louder, especially for games that went untiered like TFH or Garou or Brawlhalla or Rivals of Aether or Pokken or DoA5
as a tekken player i get how it would seem loose because of it's 3d mobiltiy and all it's different angles etc. But tbh the combos can feel a little stale because everybody is doing the optimal damage combo because the alternate combos are kinda lack luster.
yea Tekken is very loose to a 2D gamer but to us veterans it really is a tight game.
the most unpredictable stuff happens on side wall splat and the rare reset pick ups.
@@Senumunu I look at it this way. For those new or learning the game all the situations the game presents to you can make it pretty loose to an extent due to it being a crazy experience.
For those who have played older titles competitively (aka legacy) I can see it in the kinda tight category. For the most part from game to game the chars don't really change dramatically often. The main differences people would adjust to is new moves, changing of frames on key moves and maybe new game mechanics (ex. T7 Rage Arts/Drive)
@@InfernalSpyro yea i agree. 3D and 2D should have their own category with this list. Compare Virtua fighter/DoA/Tekken and some 3D arena fighters with each other and then the whole category to 2D. the simple fact that you can walk sideways makes your game looser but at the same time you can have standard combos while 2D games have all kinds of routes. my idea for this list is have 4 categories: movement, combos, neutral, environment and then give every game a distribution curve ~
Not super sure as to what the definitions of what makes something loose and tight yet fully but, I think in this case it's more on what *you can do*, which Tekken gives a lot of, and not necessarily what everyone chooses to do or what many ended up doing. Like idk I feel like even if Tekken has optimal options, the non-optimal ones can still work and one can be creative with it still, unlike with some of the other games out there where if it doesn't work, it just wouldn't at all. Idk
I think overall system first games like 3d ones and KOF are generally tighter than what Max puts them on the list. In KOF, Tekken, VF and Calibur you're very much playing within an intended system, but have a lot of choices and expression potential within it. The system is planned to be reasonably open ended, but it doesn't break. It just flows well. Like someone else said about VF, "It lends itself to creativity within a rigid paradigm." But the paradigm is there, and it doesn't break for the most part.
A lot of the problem with more modern (generally 2d) tight games is exactly that their systems are both kinda "small in expression potential" AND "tight as fuck" so you do this one thing all day.
With how many bad match ups there are in games like mk9 they tend to be more tight in reality. For every loose Kabal there is a poor tight soul that has to fight him
The tight feeling is why I never could get into mk11 properly, X might be broken if you're a competitive player, but as a casual that shit was fun.
Thanks for taking some time to actually define tightness in this context.
I can’t wait for this to be a toxic debacle by the FGC (AGAIN)
You should try Toshinden 3, that game is also pretty loose. I played it a lot in as a kid, so I have soft spot for it.
Alright time to look in the comments in 3 days to find the Sirlin post
aw dang Power Rangers Battle for the Grid wasnt in the Tierlist. Im guessing itll fit in Loose to possibly Hella loose, its small scope is certainly holding it back but it is really cool how much you can do. This is a really informative vid on feel of fighting games and player control
Is Hella loose... like Umvc3 levels of loose
Yeah, Power Rangers is a confident "Loose" at the very least. I think maybe it's not quite UMVC3 Loose, because there is no x-factor at play, but I'm not that knowledgeable on the game.
@@NiiRubra the megazrord works as xfactor
Max’s goal should be a tier list a week.
tier lists are youtube cheat codes no joke, i have two and they're my most viewed videos by far
Watching this again. I got melee way above most of these. That “how fast is melee” video alone is crazy
11:35 ish well faster mean more option usually (Inquisitor in DNF dual got alot more option in the second beta compare to the previous one and I think it mainly just because she run faster and walk faster now and you can fell it you got more option you can do now you don't just thow the fire and can't do mixup out of it now you can run to the enemy and do things.) So yah I agreed movement spd give more option making it more "loose"
Thanks for always making such culturally informative videos!
I hate fighting games but listening to max and his expertise is entertaining.
Thought Max would find Divekick on there to open the SFT category.
I immediately said HNK and SSBMelee. Hokuto No Ken is *more* loose; but the entire act of moving around has been torn the fuck open in Melee. Not even accounting for the exploits we see at every single tier in the game. The low tiers in Melee are atrocious; but aside from Kirby and Zelda, these characters are not tight the way that Chun Li or Wolverine are in MvC2. Even Ness, Roy, and Mewtwo break the game
Max gotta see Mewtwo side-b a character through the edge of a platform
I actually really enjoy Fantasy Strike.
Oh snap! Virtual On is on here!