Lifepo4 Vs. Lead Acid - 4 step comparison // Lithium Iron Phosphate Vs. FLA // Li-ion // LFP
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- Опубликовано: 26 июн 2024
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Renewable Energy Engineer Jesse Gorter explains in 4 steps what the advantages and disadvantages are of Lithium batteries compared to conventional Lead Acid batteries:
1. The structural difference between Lithium and Lead Acid batteries
2. The advantage of Lithium batteries
3. The disadvantage of Lithium batteries
4. Conclusion and recommendations
Jesse is an expert in off-grid battery based solar powered energy systems, and the founder of the company Solar Solution, through which he shares his knowledge and expertise with others.
www.solarsolution.co
DISCLAIMER:
The content of this video is for information purposes only. If you choose to use any information provided through this video, you do so at your own risk. Viewing and/or listening to this video does not form a professional relationship of any kind.
All rights reserved. COPYRIGHT Solar Solution.
#lifepo4 #solarsolution #solarconsultant 
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Just one caveat. I have been using a LiFePo battery (4 cell - 200 amp/hr) for over a year on my boat (currently cruising full time). LiFePo batteries typically operate around 90% of their charge cycle around 13.2 volts, not 12.8 volts. If I am seing 12.8 volts for my pack, the pack is below 15% SOC.
Past time to recharge if you want to maintain high cycle numbers. Just my non-engineer experience. The rest of your presentation is spot-on. Thanks for the useful info
Based on your experience is LiFePo batteries worth the expense?
Hi mark, thanks for sharing your experience. The average working voltages vary indeed based on the brand and cell design. It sounds you are happy with your system, I am glad to hear so!
@@andrewnims8175
Hi Andrew. If this question was signed at me the answer is absolutely yes. But truth be told, only time will tell. LiFePo batteries work great on a boat mostly because it is a low draw, moderate recharge environment. (Solar or typically 20 to 40 amp battery charger). Also generally 30% to 90% State of charge (SOC). LiFePo batteries love this kind of treatment. If the number of charge cycles turns out to be around 5000 to 6000 cycles ad current research appears to be expected, that translates to 13 to 16 years of use with just 20% degredation in capacity at the end. (Still very useable in this same scenario). So, yea, looks very promising.
Great information Jesse. Keep going. Thanks.
Thanks JP! I will do so.
This was very interesting and informative.
I had heard that sub-freezing temperatures were hard on lithium batteries.
I guess that you somewhat confirmed this in this episode.
We’ll look for a way to keep the lithium batteries we intend to use in a climate controlled space.
Thank You
Course trailer and Coupon Code: ruclips.net/video/VKa_yBiu728/видео.html
Good day sir, may i ask the pros and cons of using 14.6v li-ion charger for top balancing 3.2v/55amps 32650 -80pcs in parallel. Thanks_
All I know is I have a alternator 12v 100 Amp charging when it's running. On Monday morning I plug in to a 110v outlet with 2 1.5 Amp trickle charger. Wait for the light to turn green. Then go again on Tuesday. Come the first winter morning one or boath batteries are dead. I chase cows on a mountain. My trucks a 1988. Talk about recycling. The batteries are in the cab. Vented overboard. So I warm them. I have to. I am looking for a longer life battery. More durable.
Thanks man for the info
You are welcome @User One, I'm glad you liked it.
Six months after you made this video I looked at a high quality led carbon battery bank 48v @ 720Ah.
I was surprised to find out that the price was higher than a equivalent LiFePo4 system.
Thank you for you feedback Geocha. The topic of this video has a focus on conventional Lead Acid batteries, rather than the specific lead carbon batteries you are referring to. I hope this clarifies why you might have found specific batteries which were more expensive than LiFePO4 batteries. Good luck! Jesse.
Useful information for free. Thank you for sharing . 👍🏽
You are welcome!
I can see people can get confused because “Lithium ion” sounds a lot like “Lithium IRON”. It would seem you could bring the older Lithium ion battery into the comparison, at least somewhat.
I did note that Toyota used Metal Hydride rather than lithium in certain hybrid models due to cold weather operating needs.
A valid point, thank you for your contribution Stephen. I shared a video to try to educate & clarify this subject and others related to lithium ion batteries: ruclips.net/video/N-yxvZ3Tezg/видео.html
Oh great contact Good information keep up the good work thank you
Glad it was helpful!
As a comparison I just look at the basic math. Lithium cost 4-5x more than FLA but do they last 4-5x longer? The answer is NO (not even close) so I will continue to buy FLA until the price of Lithium is comparable.
Respect!
Thank you so good
You are welcome Julius, thank you for your message!
Good video. One other big advantage of LiFePO4 batteries is the much reduced weight vs their lead counterpart.
Hi Alexandru! That is definitely true, thanks for your comment.
If my Renogy controller keeps charging my batteries I properly, and so can’t get one that works correctly. Would switching to lipo4 overcome the improper charging and not ruin the batteries?
Thank you
You are welcome Cristian, thanks for your message. All the best, Jesse.
I see another major advantage of LFP cells. There is no need to fully charge them. Lead batteries will suffer quickly if not fully charged with each cycle and it's that last 20% that is so hard to get into them.
Spot on, thank you for your comment Andrew.
Smart Carbon helps reduce the Partial-State-Of-Charge issue ...
Can I install an inverter in the conventional genset?
Is it possible to replace a lead acid battery like the one in my truck with a lifepo4 battery? I am currently running 2 31s31 1000 cca 12v agm deep cycle marine batteries. Due to wench and lighting needs. I also live in a place there -40°f is a normal winter morning. The batteries last about a year then need replacement. I also charge them once a week with a deep cycle charger at 1.5 amps. It's not cycles but winter that kills them. I need a more durable option.
Thanks Jesse, Great information delivered well.
What are your thoughts and experiences with Lead Crystal batteries?
From what I can see, they are between lead acid and LiFePO4 in price, have similar electrical characteristics to LiFePO4 and the downside of being heavy like lead acid.
Thanks Colin, I am glad to hear you found the video useful.
I will share a separate video on the Lead Acid [LA] crystal batteries. It sounds you already did your proper research, and you appear to be on the right track.
I addition to what you mentioned, most LA crystal batteries also allow for relatively high charge/discharge currents, and increased Depth Of Discharge levels. Your specific system operating requirements will largely determine whether FLA, FLA Crystal or Lithium will be the go-to option for you.
DISCLAIMER: This message is for information purposes only, use this information at your own risk.
What about odor or air quality ?]
Hello, thanks for the info you've provided. Im building an off grid camp that will not get much use in winter months where temps get below zero, Maine USA. I plan to have generator back up for charging and possible wind turbine (small). System will be housed in separate small workshed. Reviewing all the data on lead acid versus Lithium. Cant find anything on un-attended systems that might not be accessible for several months. We are looking at 3.15 sun hrs at worst time of yr. Question 1. What is recommended battery type with heating pads. Or question2, If generator will operate based on shed temp/battery charge? Thanks.
Hello Rob, thank you for your excellent question. This is indeed a topic which is rarely discussed, though it is IMO rather important: I have shared a video specifically on how to store / preserve batteries, here is the direct link: ruclips.net/video/clVrcG8jV7Y/видео.html. Enjoy! Jesse
@@SolarSolution Thanks again, good info!
Halo.
I'm located in South Africa where we experience load shedding. That is , for certain period if time we experience power cuts and this is negatively affecting my business.
I would like to further know which is the better solution between a generator and an inventor for a business , as I'll mostly be using it for power tools and compressor
A generator will supply the high power demand for your business. I think you will need hundreds of watts to run your tools and compressor, which translates to a lot of current being drawn from any battery. If you only go a few hours between power, a generator will be able to hold you over during these times.
Cell balancing is CRITICAL for lithium batteries and BMS adds significantly to the cost of an installation. For mountaintop radio tower installations you should never use lifepo4 batteries, frequent low temperatures will destroy them quickly. Lithium Titanate batteries can tolerate the cold weather but are even more expensive. Maybe in another 10-20 years the cost will come down enough to be competetive.
Thanks for your contributions, very interesting! It sounds like you have done some work in the field [thumbs up]. All the best, Jesse.
Could you show a chart for forklift battery charging? I have two 48 volt 540 amp hr each and I need settings of how much amperage I should put them at. My solar is 30- 250 watt pannels. And a all in one 5000 mppt inverter charger by midnight solar. I'm useally at float by 9 in the morning and run on pannels all day. And by morning I'm at 96 percent . it works good but I'm not sure if my settings are right.
Great suggestion!
Thank you Sir for your comparison .I found it informative .
So It's time to replace my lead acid Batteries at the off grid cottage . Seeing that LiFeP04 battery charges faster this should be a advantage with Solar [ cloudy days and less panels needed ] . Now what I've being lead to believe in my research is the cheaper Lead Acid Batteries like USA ,Crown or Trojan don't provide stored power the same way as LiFeP04 . Have even seen claims a 100 Amp hr LiFiP04 provides more usable power then 2 Trojan 6VDC hooked in series for 225 Amp hrs at 12.6 vdc . This doesn't make sense ??
When I first started in the off grid project at the cottage 11 years ago I went through hell hopping I was getting it right . Back then I was considering on a Forklift Battery as each cell was 2 volts and the battery was made up in series and parallel and meant to be abused . What turned me on to this was the fact we had a forklift that no one ever charged you would be using it and there would be little notice before it stopped . it was dragged back to the charger many times over the years and would last a long time on a full charge . Always thought this was the battery to use . I only started to research LiFeP04 and not totally sold on it .Still think a forklift battery might be the way to go.
Will watch more of your videos hopefully I find my answer .
Thanks for your message Wayne, I am glad to hear you enjoy the videos. Good luck with your project, it sounds you are on your way of solving it!
Wayne - The LiFePo4 will only charge faster if you actually have enough Solar Panels ( $$$ ) and a large enough Charge Controller ( $$$ ). Huge AMPS will require larger ( $$ ) wires. Have you added up, the massive cost of this upgrade ?
I'm having a really hard time with this. I went to a battery supplier and the owner told me that the lithium craze is just height and she prefers lead-acid. Of course she doesn't really sell them so maybe that's why but she told me that that's why she doesn't bring them in to begin with. Her amp hours on the battery she quoted me a price on, had more amp hours that I saw on lithium batteries for 7 times the price. I can spend $1,100 for four lead acid batteries with 260 amp hours each or about $6,000 on the lithium equivalent. She told me they would last between five and 10 years depending on how much I use them. It seems to me it would just be better to buy lead acid every 5 years then to replace lithium batteries every 10 years. It would still be half the cost and we are talking about a lot of power in the let acid ones I was quoted on. I want to be able to be totally off-grid in my RV.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts Marlono. The Lead-Acid vs Lithium comparison confuses many, once you actually start digging into the topic. So you are definitely not the only one! Lithium generally outperforms Lead-Acid on several technical points, though Lead-Acid is indeed often still the most cost-efficient by means of total energy withdrawn over their lifetime. Good luck with making up your mind! All the best, Jesse
PS I have shared a few more videos on Lithium batteries, check out the playlists for more info. Enjoy!
What a bout Boat batteries or Deep Cycle Battery
Lithium ion current usage and charge are limited by the BMS most use a 100 amp draw.
Thanks for your addition Gabriel. You are right, depending on your specific type of BMS used, the amperage during charge & discharge is limited to a fixed value or adjustable.
Hey jesse nice to see you and your videos 👊😎 I'm interested in charging my batteries with a tri- fuel generator and maybe solar at a later date. Problem with the solar for me will be finding a safe and efficient placement of them. I'm looking to get long amp hrs. Out of them, I have around 45 amps to run just the neccessary fridge and freezers plus my high efficiency natural gas hot water system. All will be on timers. How many lithium batteries can I tie together to achieve this task ? And can I charge lithium with a generator? This is all for a grid down scenario... or would I be better off with lead acid batts??? Price is no concern at this point... thank you for doing all the research for me 😂🤯🤪 it would take me yrs of trial and error to figure it all out. Your new best friend Doug 😂😂😂👊😎🙏
Hey Doug, nice to hear from you! Thanks for you message and I am glad to hear you are enjoying the content. I think you might find the following video on generators useful:
ruclips.net/video/DGE9tTF2MFQ/видео.html
As for your other questions, I would like to draw your attention to the pinned comment at the top. Enjoy! Jesse.
So what are the type of lead acid batteries that could compete with lithium in terms of lifecycles? Sorry im new to this, but planning to build a solar energy system in my house.☺👍
@j. doh sounds like a good project. To find the good ones out there you might want to start downloading spec sheets and start comparing them. Look for the DOD vs life cycles graphs and you will see which ones stand out [big time]. Enjoy!
Buy a REAL Deep Cycle battery - read the "Cycle vs Depth of Discharge" graph ...
I’m going to be building a high powered sound system and I was really afraid of using lithium I just want to make sure I’m going in the correct direction.... agm are very heavy
Sounds like a nice project! Yep, AGM's are definitely heavy compared to Lithium's. Good luck and have fun! Jesse.
You said, "... 4 to 5 TIMES the upfront *COST* "
Thanks. Yes I agree with you, the difference in initial investment between conventional Lead Acid versus Lithium Iron Phosphate is quite substantial. Plenty of room for the industry to make improvements :).
As far i know that, if lead acid charge down under 40%, that battery never be full charge either, am i right??
Please , please ,please can you give me the link or information on the conventional batteries that outperform lithium batteries ?
Hello Ganja Farmer, thanks for your message. There are several different Lead Acid batteries which can compete with Lithium batteries, though it greatly depends which comparison parameter you are thinking about. Exempli Gratia: Cost per kWh, Cycle Life, max DOD, etc. Perhaps you might want to start by looking at the playlist I created specifically on the battery topic:
ruclips.net/p/PL9Nrg1XB1hdjWs1Fo6SHBhs1ag_PQl4Ct
Hope this helps, let me know! Jesse
While you're at it do a video on where lithium is mined. I'll never go away from my old stand by lead acid. While a agree with you that technology is great, modern technology also has the dis-advantage of needing more technology to support it. Technology at sea can fail. I want the lowest possible failure rate on my boat as possible.
Lead ain't so good either.
www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2020/01/19/environmental-implications-of-lead-acid-and-lithium-ion-batteries/#35b18fb7bf5e
It is a good idea to discuss the environmental aspects of Lithium Lowell, thanks for your feedback. I will share a separate video on this.
Jesse, so if you are living in a temperate climate country, with mild winter like.... Let's say... I don't know .... Portugal, then lithium would be in even more advantage over led acid as one wouldn't need to worry about low temperatures, right?
Hi Daniel, thanks for your question. Portugal! One of my favorite countries. Both Lithium-based and Lead-acid batteries encounter performance reduction with lower temperatures. But if you would like an excellent excuse for buying Lithium batteries and was hoping for a different answer, just let me know and I can change my answer [JOKE]. Good luck in making your choice! Jesse
@@SolarSolution thanks Jesse! I am starting to implement a solar system and I currently just have 520w for the baseline consumption. If I decide to add more, and I will for sure, I need to start considering a battery to go with it or else I will be giving away energy to the grid.
@@TheAllMightyGodofCod Sounds like a fun project Daniel! Enjoy, Jesse.
@@SolarSolution thanks and if you ever want to visit Portugal, give me notice!
@@TheAllMightyGodofCod Muito obrigado!
Do lithium batteries charge faster than leas acid batteries.
Hello Yeswecan, thank you for your question. In general, Lithium batteries allow for higher charge currents, and have higher overall charge-cycle efficiencies. I hope this helps, good luck! Jesse
Yes, very much so. For people like me in places with reduced solar exposure that is a huge bonus.
even cheap lthium batteries out last any leadacid, with a 60% discharge rate cheap LiFePO4 batteries can last 3000 cycles compares to lead acid 400 to 600 cycles, and good quality LiFePO4 batteries can last upto 6000 cycles. I have using both and my expensive AGM battries hardly holds 70% of their rated capacity in a year of useage, where my much more abused LiFePO4 still have 100% of the rated capacity, over the same time period. out of experience I can never recommend leadacid, unless you have your battries where it get below freezing temps.
How do lead-carbon batteries fit in with dedicated off grid? For that matter, what about AGM & the long lived nickel-iron Edison battery? Is AGM 'conventional' in your nomenclature?
Sorry for the long post but I can't work out the way to go. I have a real world scenario that may be helpful for others when choosing dedicated off grid storage.
I'm not requesting specific system recommendations as I can fine tune my system up or down specific to my needs when I have the battery tech sorted.
What is specific though, is I'd like to know whether lead-carbon is more appropriate than lead-acid over, let's say, 15 years?
As well, how do Edison batteries (if at all) fit in the equation if they last >30 years? I've found a lot of information out but can't seem to manage to stitch it all together - enough at least to make an informed decision.
Basically, I do not trust a thing sellers say. Not one bit of it. As far as I can ascertain it's all lies and finding the truth amongst those lies is absolutely diabolical considering the substantial cost involved.
I have a technical background. I like independent facts not solar industry sales lies. No one person can know everything and trying to find truth in a field you have no experience in isn't easy. Opinion is not fact but you can't tell them - almost exclusively you get when you dare ask direct questions is, "I've been doing this for 35 years [insert 5 min monologue HERE], so what do you know?"
I'm wanting to get my off grid system planned. I'm planning a small house build and the house design and solar system need to be integrated for my location. Lately, I'm considering lead-carbon (24x 2v, 480ah in a 48v bank).
Battery bank space, weight, size is of absolutely no consideration. Again I don't require specific system information for my needs, just cost effectiveness for long term battery storage.
So what I've found out that is specific to my research is based on 300-500ah battery banks that I could find in my price range, and in Australia, and is available, and is supported post sale.
All 48v banks:
Lead-carbon $8500, 480ah (Narada)
AGM $8500, 460ah (Narada)
Edison $17,000/$11,000 (40x 500ah OR 40x 300ah - Iron Core brand).
high quality lead acid at $12,000, 450ah (Suncycle AS Series)*
* I could only find one source for 2v lead-acid batteries here. Used to be many sources, now only one. I genuinely don't know what that's saying about the market here at least.
I'm hoping my situation is reasonably real world that the average person wanting to go off grid might be wanting to consider.
A little background is in order. I live lat 37 deg S in Australia on a bush block. I live fairly modestly but enjoy my comforts, particularly a 240v 3500w commercial espresso machine - my bit of luxury that uses quite a lot of power while heating up and yes I have to load manage my generator at times but not often. It's the single most power hungry load and it would be nice to not have to think about load balancing but hardly that important. A first world problem in the scheme of things.
Speaking of generators I have a mid priced 3 cylinder 950cc 1500rpm 5.5kva Diesel type. This means I can monitor my power consumption. The fuel consumption is generally excellent. I think I chose well.
For short periods in winter when I get home I might use 5000w for 20 mins that's about the max load I've ever used and most of the time the load is under 2500w and a lot of that under 800w. This might show what 2 people could expect to use when coming home at night at least in comparatively temperate Australia. My generator gives me a good idea what my power use habits are.
Of interest, solar panels here are government subsidized so are therefore pretty cheap. I can get as many as I like so as mentioned can fine tune my system specs later. With the generator I feel I have all bases covered - EXCEPT what battery tech??
Thing is, I've watched a few of your vids and I am astounded how well reasoned they are in comparison to what seems like utter lies spoken by sellers of off grid storage about everywhere.
Pragmatically, after watching this vid I decided to check the pros and cons of Lifepo4 vs Lead Acid from four sellers on the internet. Not one of them agreed with you, yet all of them were pushing Lifepo4 over lead acid as better cost wise esp long term.
You've shown us that is almost, but not quite false (possible exceptions being low quality lead acid vs high quality Lifepo4 etc), so more true than untrue on the balance of probability - I get it, lead-acid is cheaper. You proved it. It is difficult to argue to the contrary.
What hope does the consumer have in the face of thousands of self serving solar sellers? (SSSS LOL)
At one point nickel-iron was my top contender but I hear many solar inverters struggle with them, so now I don't know again. Again it could just be nothing more than SSSS BS. How would I know? Self procrastination is driving me crazy but that procrastination is driven by industry falsehoods at best and blatant lies at worst.
I'm having a tough time. I really am.
Please help!
You say, "The risk of FIRE has bee reduced to almost ZERO" ??? There is a good risk of fire when the BMS fails and BMS boards do fail ...
Hello and thank you for your feedback. I agree with you, BMS systems are there to protect us, though they can still fail. Regarding the fire hazard, please note that the content of this video has a specific focus on the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, as opposed to the older types of Lithium batteries.
@@SolarSolution See the videos where LiFePO4 cells do ignite - they are not 100% safe. Is the plastic case fireproof?
You still around?
Hello Zay, yes I am!
sounds a bit like Arnold
Haha that is funny Nazir. Happy New Year! Jesse