As always, our rankings are our opinions. This is how we rank classes in regards to playing in a team. It is totally fine to disagree, so have a conversation below.
Interesting how in PvP where enemies aren't bullet sponges the bolt weapons are actually viable. Maybe the devs could learn from that and apply it to the PvE.
The Q&A they put out directly addressed that. They’re looking at adjusting health pools to make bolt weapons feel better in the higher diffs without hurting other weapon options too.
good thing the devs planned to make us Astartes to actually feel powerful in PvE. currently we cant even take damage from minoris enemy nor any reasons to use boltguns to shoot enemy without run out of ammo after 2 encounters....might as well playing as a Cadian and fighting like Darktide melee combat at that point, at least my block and dodging is actually useful against hordes
And maybe tone down the ranged nids and Chaos goat men with shields in pve. Or maybe just don't spawn 1000 of them at a time? A crap ton of nids makes sense, but I think this game needs to call the Chaos Marines the "1 Million Sons" just to be accurate...
Other than the melta, Vanguard doesn't have great gun selection. Even when they nerf the health bug I will still be zipping and blasting with a melta! If anything I wish there were more melee weapons I could use
He has 2 solid melee weapon, but yea the melta is only viable primary he has. The adrenaline signature perk is nice (1% heal executing majoris or higher), it may sound not great, but it actually helps you a lot with health bar.
As a Vanguard main, I'm... not sure I entirely agree with this. They absolutely do not compare to the melta, let's be real clear about that, but I've been fucking around with the other two over the last few days, mostly to try and learn what vanguard sustain is like without the massive overheal bug, and the other guns have been doing surprisingly well. The Occulus is easily the worst of the three guns, with pretty reasonable damage output, but poor accuracy and penetration mean it's mostly for softening hordes and hipfiring from close range. It gets the job done, but that's about the extent of it. I had expected complete trash, but I walked away finding it broadly acceptable; it's biggest flaw simply being that the melta is just that much better. The Instigator, on the other hand, with its 3 round burst and high accuracy, I've found a great deal of success with. It chews through hordes at max range, with easy headshots on gaunts and tzaangors from almost any angle, and will kill any of them in one headshot. Really lets you clean up packs of minors before they can swarm you, and in a pinch can deal with majors relatively well too (even if you're still generally better off using melee for them). Running it makes for a pretty different playstyle, and it's a fair bit of fun, though admittedly trying to do higher difficulty content with a lower level Instigator is a recipe for a bad time. That said, I'm 100% with you on the more melee weapons train. I've found quite a bit of success grabbing the Balanced chainsword and running the +50% perfect parry window perk (functionally making the balanced chainsword into a fencing chainsword in practice), and that has _massively_ increased melee damage compared to the combat knife and even the fencing chainsword. But some more variety on offer would be really nice.
@@requiemagent3014 "fake news" it's literally posted on steam for the game are you an idiot? seeing this level of delulu commentary seconds after your prior reply to me in another comment is actual hilarity. literal copium.
@@gravity579 “damage only” is a terrible barometer if a class is good or not. In this game where survivability matters esp. in harder difficulty, the Bulwark outshines the other classes. Cant already count the times where Im the only remaining character alive and I had to kill all the enemies through attrition to keep the mission going. If built properly, the Bulwark can outlast the densest enemies. In most tier list, other than this one, the Bulwark is almost at S or A at least
@@sp00kdagul Here is the problem with that. As people get better at the game and running the missions, Bulwark's utility gets worse. Me and my friends are at the point where we can deal with a Carnifex plus Zoanthrope spawn at the same time (Tactical, Heavy and Sniper). So having one of us dealing 30% of the damage does not feel too attractive. Edit: Just to specify I am talking about ruthless.
I say Heavy is High A/A+. In my opinion, Heavy is A on Tyrranid missions, but S specifically on Chaos missions, so it evens out. This is mostly due to the applicability of Iron Halo. In Tyrranid missions where Melee is the standard, it won't save you or help divert damage nearly as often as in Chaos missions where Ranged is the standard.
@BREAKocean tbh just use Multi-Melta. It staggers bigger enemies, does a lot of damage, and shreds crowds. 'Cept on boss sections, then Plasma is your best bet. Thing'll take out the Hellbeast in 4 shots on the lowest difficulty.
Awesome video , bro. As a huge PvE fan ( Gears horde mode & Division & Division 2 ) I'm excited to buy this game and try out tactical class. Thank you Sincerely, New Subscriber
@@requiemagent3014 that's just a small part of the rest of the build. Didn't think I'd have to detail out every aspect and weapon perk and playstyle. 🤣
The parrying is great, and so is the plasma, but it’s still undeniably worse than the S-tier classes or Vanguard. Parrying is a bit of a problem right now, as melee feels weak across the board, with most of the viability of swinging your sword/hammer coming from the follow up reflex shots. I love my bulwark, I’m functionally immortal, but sniper, tac, heavy, and vanguard are all just that much better.
Vanguard PVP being in B is criminal. I do think it needs the ability to vault onto ledges it grapples to, but there is no denying how immensely powerful the ability is for taking out targets. It is an instant win for any 1v1 engagement. In team fights it breaks up front line issues like a heavy with their halo or a bulwark with a shield. Going into an outnumbered fight blindly grappling to the enemy will get you killed, but you aren't gonna see a bulwark using banner alone when its away from objectives and you're not gonna see a sniper rush towards an enemy before turning invisible. Just because someone hasn't figured out how to use their ability yet doesn't mean it is bad, it just means that they need to learn how to use it effectively.
When it comes to the Vanguard, I have to extremely disagree. He, by far, has the most buggy and unpredictable ability of all of the classes. And even when it does work, which when it does, it's pretty awesome ngl. But I still don't think it's as good as the jetpack. The class should be lower than B tier imo. You cant even get up on some of the high ground ledges because there isn't a wall high enough to grapple on to, too land on it, not to even mention that the grapple animation takes forever. The assult is just better. This is coming from someone who is max rank on pvp and has gotten all the cosmetics for every class. (Meaning I've won a minimum of 20 games on each)
I think you guys are heavily undervaluing the Krak grenade. I would say Krak grenades alone elevate PvP Tactical to A tier. When using the Tactical class with the Melta and Kraks, you have the fastest TTK in the game outside of a sniper. A single krak grenade + melta shot kills any space marine. Tactical, with its 2 kraks, actually decent mobility, and auspex scan to shore up the Melta's wildly short range damage falloff, gives you the ability to 1v TEAM. People in SM2 PVP tend to deathball - sticking together. If you position yourself well, to be close to them without entering line of sight, a Krak and Melta can kill 2 players in a single burst. 2 Kraks with indiscriminate melta spray kills entire teams. It also neatly counters Bulwarks, as when a Krak detonates on a Bulwark it staggers them and knocks their shield away, allowing you to instantly kill them with no counter. Krak is love Krak is life.
Kraks are definitely strong, won't deny that at all. Issue is you trade immediate kill potential for survivability, which is totally fine. That's balanced that way in our opinion.
Thats exactly where i would rank them too at least for PvP. I don't think there is a bad Class but i feel like if you don't pick Sniper, Assault or Bulwark you are genuinely handicapping yourself because they are so frustrating to deal with. Assault suffers in closed spaces where there is a ceiling but in open spaces a good Assault player is terrifying. The damage from the Jump and the Hammer is absolutely crazy. No idea why people say this class is weak in PvP.
Honestly even in closed spaces with a ceiling the assault still has his jetpack dodges to finish off any enemies or close the gap to do a lot of damage with the hammer. He can still get away well too.
Melta weapons are just Dominant Strategy. They aren't actually the best weapons, far from it, they're just the easiest to use. There is nothing inherent to the the Melta weapons that causes the overhealing mechanic. It occurs when you have any amount of contested health and kill multiple enemies at once. I have personally done it with the Heavy Bolter, Bolter Rifle (both normal fire and the Grenade Launcher variants), Melta Rifle, Multi Melta, Bolt Pistol (yes seriously), Plasma Pistol, Plasma Incinerator, and Heavy Plasma Incinerator. I'm pretty sure you can also pull it off with the Las Fusil as well, though haven't tried it yet myself, this is because it has very high penetration and some AoE damage (that I think can be upgraded in its perk tree).
@@requiemagent3014 Yeah I've got about 95 hours played, probably 87 in operations. I agree with the assessment. I'm a bit worried that they're going to dial down the difficulty too much because of the impotent whinging online. Most people that I've seen complaining just haven't learned the basic survivability mechanics yet. They would rather everything be tuned down to triviality than learn the basic combat mechanics. I've been playing solo and despite that I've been crushing Ruthless difficulty. I was looking forward to the increased difficulty level coming out but after this response I'm worried they'll lower the other difficulties and slot it in where Ruthless was.
Multi melta might be the easiest from an ammo conservation perspective. You have essentially free shots into hordes, and you can easily regenerate ammo on Majoris enemies.
Vanguard with long range carbine actually an S-tier in PvP - he can win 1v1 with any class, well not only win you can’t possibly escape from him, he has 2nd best mobility around map and he can provide tons of long range dmg with his long range carbine
@@LegacyGamingUS Nah, the Vanguard is excellent in PvP squad play, its a reliable counter to bulwark frontlines with a team. It can also flank easily to disrupt a enemy front line in preparation for your squads assault. B tier is wrong
@@fr0gzz Vanguards are super easy to kill even when they get the jump on you. The only time I die to vanguards is if there are multiple people shooting at me when he grapples me. They are good, but not great.
After playing 50 hours of assault I completely agree. You are so vulnerable throughout the pve missions, especially on higher tiers compared to every other class, it’s hard to clear groups of enemies without your jump pack and the abilities to get your jump pack back are very hard to pull off. On top of that using the hammer is so slow and the enemies hit for so much at higher difficulties you walk away from encounters really low health or dead. Something has to be buffed because I’m not doing enough damage to make me losing my health worth it. I just stick to using the pistol now so I don’t have to constantly die, swap to hammer occasionally against solo targets
Tactical B tier in pvp? U must be joking, tactical always has the highest k/d ratio in any game, tactical is easily above anything. I carried my team in a 4v5 matchup and won easily. Absolutely disagree with u here
Maps that have grenande caches that are close by 2 each other (Like the one map I forgot the name of) Make the tactical beyond S tier with shocks. It's ridiculous.
I main heavy in pvp and it’s hands down S tier, even against bulwarks or vanguards, a shock grenade immediately counters them both. If you have quick reaction time a snipers surprise factor is negated to iron halo. If it’s a heavy vs heavy my tip is to wait until you take some dmg first and cut through their shield and then pop yours. It’s basically a game of chicken lol. Every game i drop more than 15 kills and get number one for objective and assists, while my teammates are usually having to be carried by me. Just my own opinion though
Pvp tactical counters sniper, vanguard, assault and even heavy because of its ability and nade spam tactics. Vanguard completely counters heavy and bulwark. Assault doesn't counter anyone it's just jump in jump out basically like the sniper.(still very good in their own right) Bulwark counters the heavy, tactical.
@@GerdionXT i prefer the chainsword because it's what I'm used to but I believe the knife is better especially after stunning someone you can hit them once or twice before the stun fully ends vs the chainsword during your first swing the stun ends. Melee going through armor is op.
As an assualt player i think it needs help but i dont think its as bad as people say. Once you level up fully its pretty damn fun and the thunder hammer becomes great imo. That being said i hope it gets a couple minor buffs to make it really shine.
I only had to look at the perk trees to see that the assault was lacking in PVE compared to other classes. The class needs some serious love to get it up near the other classes.
The last signature perk is useless imo, It's high-risk for little reward. They should replace it with the Red Thirst as a nod to Blood Angels and give the Assault much better survivability in combat by rewarding contested health for kills, larger enemies reward larger pools of contested health. The signature weapon, the Thunder Hammer, is just painfully slow. Even if you start an attack, enemies will land hits on you before you've finished the animation. There needs to be a knock-back or stun effect when it lands to balance the slowness, or just make it slightly faster.
@@rhysc9706 I think if they gave assault the ability use it has in PVP would be a good start, but I think they need to get armor back if they slam a majoris or higher enemy. Give them some risk vs reward for aggressive play.
I have about 20 hours on Assault in PVP. I will say it’s probably the best class IMO. If you played any other games such as Overwatch you need to play Assault like a flanker and off angle. Jump pack in get a kill and jump pack out. Use the hammer because if you ground pound on someone it takes one swing from the hammer to get the kill. And if you’re mid swing and need to get out fast you can always parry to cancel the swing. So much fun once you get the hang of it
Hey @legacygamingUS Just wanted to say I slightly disagree for Tactical not being considered S-Tier in PVP. I just maxed out my gearset/cosmetics over a 14 hour pvp session w/ friends yesterday and over 40 wins, and i just wanted to note: As long as you master or at least become rather proficient at blocking/parrying, you can very much win in melee against snipers, vanguards, and assault. It just takes practice and timing :) Its definitely NOT in your favor, but against opponents who make a mistake in the encounter, you can find openings to win, and endlessly parry/block to survive the attack. Looking into what my secondary class will be to max out so i found this video, thanks for it very much! just wanted to share my take in what i believe after 45 + wins and constant top fragging with it, why i believe tac is S TIER in pvp.
We say the class is very good at what it does. In regards to a ranking of classes though, if we can take 3 classes that delete whole groups of enemies before we even take any damage, then why take a Bulwark? Things need to be more of a threat to warrant a Bulwark, and maybe horde mode and higher difficulties will present that.
@@LegacyGamingUS my hope is that new game modes add to class viability for those that underperform Horde is going to great for the long term of this game
@@LegacyGamingUSIn a way, I feel like the strongest classes are the ones that can hold their own in a worst case scenario. Which is basically just all on your own against a massive wave or something. Which is how I imagine horde mode will be. I imagine there will be a slight difference but will mostly be the same
I think assault can be good if the team comp sets him up to be so. I play him more as a big mob duelist, specing into single target dmg jump pack and gunstrikes (boss sustain goes crazy after parry into gunstrike). If he has someone to deal with the flying dudes and small mobs, he feels great. But without proper support everything is a million times harder
Vanguard being B in PvP is wild. I think a lot of people misunderstand how to play vanguard. Using his grapple to stun enemies should only be in 1v1 situations; you never open a fight using grapple. Instead, you should use the grapple to take height positons and either wait for the enemy, or out flank them. Unlike the Assault, you have a primary weapon. As such, you can just shoot down from height, and once you're sptotted, just hop off on the safe side. Rinse repeat, and you smoke the entire lobby. Also, grappling to height is pretty easy and consistent if you angle yourself properly
@Cavemol5823 They actually do better on capture and control, as the enemy team is usually more distracted and is forced to stay on point. All the while, you flank from height and shoot down on them
@@Cavemol5823 You're totally right. The only issue I have run into with the vanguard is that you can't kill bulwarks by taking height or flanking. You legitimately have to wait and hope that your team can do something, or that you have a decent assault.
Very spot on tier list. Bulwark could be argued as a A tier for group play in really difficult chaos missions. Being able to heal team mates to full health every 30 seconds is really powerful. I played 4 classes at max level. My favourite class so far is vanguard. Vanguard has a fun game play and a satisfying ability but it struggles against ranged enemies. They need to allow grappling to neurothorpe and zoathorpes. Also they are heavily reliant on the melta. A melta nerf would equal to vanguard nerf. Tactical has a solution for nearly every situation. Terminas level enemy just one head shot. Ranged combat covered with grenade launcher or plasma incinerator. Also they are good in melee.
Bulwark banner every 30s? Are you running with a pre-made Vanguard, Sniper team who just let you get all the executions and headshots? His base cd is like 120 seconds. He's nigh unkillable and can carry a game to victory through sheer attrition(abeit it'll be an extremely slow, painful one if teammates are inadequate), but having to rely on others in quickmatch is the reason he's lower on the list.
... the Heavy's melee goes completely unnoticed... and is one of the most satisfying in the game. Gun-whips, power-stomps, multi-punch combos, flying uppercuts, heel-strikes... and bitch-slaps; the Heavy is the ultimate mixed-martial in the galaxy... and its ultimate juggernaut.
@@Slanderbot they can, and I know they can because I do it lol. I think the window is larger with parry but you can literally do a running attack with assault and hammer and literally dodge instantly after the animation starts. It definitely works
For Bulwark I exclusively use the perk that makes the banner revive teammates and also generate armor 300% faster. You can get you allies up and keep them alive in super sketchy situations. saved my skin multiple times.
That was a krak grenade, not a melta bomb. You're correct that melta bombs need to be placed on the ground and prepared to remotely detonate. Notice how the grenade stuck to the enemy and detonated by itself, that's not the feature of the melta. I think they said "toss a melta" just as a phrase, but I agree that with the video it got confusing. Happy hunting brother.
Okay I had to pause because that Vanguard B tier pvp ranking is crazy. Which one of you mains vanguard and does not him nerfed? I agree with the mantle up the ledge buff, should be implemented 100%. But your reasons for the class being bad is basically you go in a bad situation, meaning 1v2 or more and you die because you are locked into an animation. That is true for every class except for assault IF he manages to jump behind EVERY opponent. In a 1v1 situation vanguard cant be beaten except tossing a frag at your feet to maybe take him out with you. It's excellent at breaking stalemates with a bulwark where you have backup like you said, and sure it does not have assaults mobility when it comes to running, but then every class is bad in pvp. You will die in PvP, if you did a play that disrupts their team and you team can capitalize on that, and the class enables you to do that, it cant be a B tier class. Same goes for tactical, its not the best class in pvp but its not B tier. Again repeating myself, scan to tag parts of the team behind corners and enable stealth snipers and assaults to jump in more freely is a must when it comes to organized pvp. I guess my point is your ranking for pvp seems to me like its taking the classes strengths when you go lone wolf while at the same time saying you should not play lone wolf and just jump on the first engagement you see.
It's analyzing both their solo and team play contribution. Vanguard is very clearly meant to jump and disrupt players, and it excels at that, but everytime we had a coordinated team on comms, even when a Vanguard jumped someone, they died before the grapple even could complete, which effectively gave the enemy team nothing to capitalize off of. It's definitely a class that excels at hunting down and picking off Snipers, Tacticals, etc that are on the backlines, but as soon as anyone uses Shock Grenades, that one utility invalidates most of a Vanguard's alpha damage. We're basically saying the class is decent, but experienced players can very easily counter it and render its kit ineffective.
@@LegacyGamingUS again I have to disagree...replace every instance of vanguard with assault in your statement, and after that I don't understand why would you put assault above vanguard. If assault jumps directly in front of everyone he will die before the jump finishes, same goes for vanguard which seems to be your experience. If you grapple into the enemy team and die before you reach the enemy than you did the wrong play. And that's not the classes fault. Assault can jump from a flank easier than a vanguard can, and that's the only thing that's better with assault compared to vanguard. "as soon as anyone uses Shock Grenades, that one utility invalidates most of a Vanguard's alpha damage ", I mean for which class is this not the case? Vanguard has an A tier weapon for pvp, he wins all 1v1. If you are fast enough you can kill a carbine sniper that ambushes you if you counter right away with hook...granted its hard and almost no chance if he comes right behind you, but still its doable. He can grapple ledges to flank the enemy team, which you should be doing. Again, its sometimes harder, but after a few hours you know the spots to consistently do it. If you grapple flank and toss a Shock Grenade into the enemy team, your team can push in. If you die doesn't matter, you did your job. Without turning this into a way too lengthy comment, I am saying that surprisingly all classes are useful and kind of balanced. The PvP is not meant to be something where you just go around and kill people without dying and getting these huge kill streaks. Don't get me wrong, that can and will happen, but if you look at the whole scope of the match it often does not matter. Even if its team deathmatch, you could be jumping in, kill two people and die, leaving you with a KDA of 2.0...but you jumped alone all the time and your team was fighting 5v6 every team engagement and lose. Tactical is all around good, with grenades can counter anyone, Bulwark can hold objectives and counter Heavy, but Vanguard can stun them and kill, Sniper can counter Vanguard if they surprise but after that Assault can surprise anyone because gamers don't look up and so on and so on...although, Assault needs 3 armor. It even makes lore sense because he does not wear Phobos armor that normally has two.
If you shock grenade a Vanguard, he's dead in the water. If you shock grenade an assault, they simply lunch into the air and the effect wears off. Vanguard can only approach from horizontal visibility most of the time, with a few exceptions being elevated terrain that you need to expend a grapple to get to. Assault can hit from anywhere in a spherical direction, can come over walls, dash through doorways into an immediate pommel strike, etc. The assault can also deploy shocks from the air during a jump. Vanguards cannot. The Assault out performs the Vanguard in every single aspect.
@@LegacyGamingUS If you shock grenade an assault, they simply launch into the air and the effect wears off...what about the guy who tossed the grenade? Does he choose not to shoot you because you are in the air? What about when you are in a corridor that has a celling and you go nowhere basically? First you say in the video that assault is vulnerable in the air and that you cant just jump whenever but now once you are attacked, blinded and being shoot at you can jump in the air and all is well...Assault cannot hit anywhere in a spherical direction, you can do it once, after that the enemy team expects that and than you can go to the flanks...alongside the vanguards. The Assault out performs nothing, it is perfectly viable and fun, my favorite to play but saying that vanguard is worse than assault just seems to me like you spent most of your games stomping the other less experienced team where assault shines.
Tbh, as far as PVE is concerned, once you learn to parry any class is viable also Bulwark is a prime example of why gun strikes should not have I frames its so easy to stand in a crowd and whittle away the enemy with gun strikes and parry fields
@@requiemagent3014 according to who sone random tier list is that all ot takes to sway your opinion have you actually played every class? Quit dickriding if you truly believe he's the secind worst than it just proves my point even more that gun strikes shouldn't have I frames if the "second worst" class can abuse them
To many players look at raw dps. I look at class synergy. Sniper for regening class skill, Tactical scans for DPS boost and Bulwark for armor and health regen. My team settled on this setup and it works very well.
Seeing you put Assault in D for PvE and A for PvP tells me everything I need to know about how awful this tier list is 😂 The icing was you putting Heavy, the best PvP class in B….
Vanguard is absolutely the best class in PvE, and the margin is so wide I would say he gaps the game. If he’s S Tier the next class is in B Tier. All of the other classes suffer from the weakness of the time until their ability comes back, but that issue is completely nullified with him. Furthermore he can heal 10% on Majoris kills with his level 25 ability. Not only have I had solo runs on Ruthless, I have had no stim runs with him where he’s almost constantly at full health. I’d also like to add there that I fight EVERY SINGLE ENEMY. The benefit to that is that he also allows 3 players of items now be rationed between 2 players. The vanguard is ridiculously disgusting since he can handle everything Extremis and below while also culling the entire horde with the chain swords stomp, which is made even more ridiculous when you have Fencing as your defense tier. His only true weakness is Terminus enemies, particularly the Neurothrope. All other Terminus, the Carnifax and Helbrute will often take around 50% of their damage from the Vanguard when you combo the Melta into the equation. He is ridiculous, he is absurd, he is obscene, and everything in between. A well trained vanguard carries the run every single time, which also allows you to bring under leveled players into Ruthless to get them early Gold Armory Tokens.
bulwark can block melee hits in pvp if its not a running light or a heavy attack so not really a weakness, imo he rated tactical way to low b/c they have the fastest time to kill and counter assault really hard if they are skilled. and 3rd no way sniper is the best in pvp you can see him when he's cloak unless your blind. he doesn't offer that anchor role or covering fire or bunker busting like chaos that makes they enemy team look away from the bulwark or heavy. sniper is still good but more like A tier and the 3rd or 4th pick i would want in my team . Overall i feel he doesn't have much experience vs good people in pvp like much of what he said only applies vs a bad team. I think it really helps playing every class so you know what are strong and weak match ups are. Pretty much every class can go 20 kills 1 death if you know your openings, match ups and game mode. they all matters some classes are way weaker in different game modes in pvp. With the melta fix coming next patch I think vanguard and heavy will get hit the hardest in pve sniper and bulwark and tactical will stay the same.
The fun thing is playing as a team to lock down the vanguard does not work...as the 2 others on the vanguard team comes in and wrecks you from behind so :/
Does the overhealing with Meltas (or other guns) only work with higher tier variants? Cause for me, hitting even a full swarm doesn't even heal all contested health, let alone overheal.
do you know how overheal works?, if you get hit you have contested health(white health), which you can heal back, weapons who kill a lot or deal dmg to multiple enemies at once tricks the system and gives you healing for all targets hit/killed. also there are perks for example tactical which gives you 30% extra contested health back.
@@Toyohisa_R As I said, I shoot a full swarm of 15 to 20 enemies with a melta, and no matter if my contested health is like 5% or 50%, I heal basically nothing.
@@requiemagent3014 The steam Q&A is the same one that's on the publishers website AND has been retweeted by both saber and the space marine accounts. Maybe the Q&A has not been done by the devs themselves, but to me it looks about as legit as can be.
I feel as though too many people are undervaluing the rest of the bulwarks perks in PVE. I actually think the Shock Build is worse then just taking all the perks that make you tankier like. I think Bulwark is the absolute tank. The undeniable Last man standing. I think in PVE if you die on bulwark at all you aint playing the class. right. Def struggle with the Melee dammage. but PVE Ranking ? A not S but 100% A
You don’t need defense when one parry nukes a city block around you. Bulwark has more than enough survivability in its base kit, commit to the parry build and watch everything just die when it get close. It’s cool and all to have the extra tankiness, but you really don’t need it. After all, going more into offense means less things to attack you, means more tankiness.
I think Bulwark should be A for PVE :) try playing Ruthless difficulty and see Bulwark's survivability and the whole team is dying left and right! the only class can block everything except those stuff unable to block, bulwark is good for CC and diversion.
Vanguard is S tier to me. -15% cool down FIFTEEN on a finisher. You know how long some of class abilities take to get back up and running and you can shorten it like it’s nothing FOR THE WHOLE TEAM. Also even if overheal gets fixed we have a 10% heal with the final perk. I dismissed it because 1% sounds ridiculous but the wording is wrong. For all my vanguard brothers give it a try.
Dont nerf the melta. Its what that weapon is ment for also on tabletop. High damage not great range. As soon they fix the hp recover from hitting mobs. It will change a little already
Tier Lists, every Game needs a tier lists. I lost so many games in PvP because of the Sniper and Vanguard Players. They want only kills but no Teamplay. And they are so easy to kill especially the snipers with their tunnel vision.
I don't think I can agree with your assessment of Bulwark in PVE, it's easily high A tier low S tier. The only enemy that gives me any trouble on a consistent basis is when two Zoanthropes show up but if it's just one or a Neurothrope I'm not even close to worried. The point I'm trying to make is that Bulwark could solo ruthless if you want to take the time to do it and I'm not so convinced that every other class is able to survive like that.
Again we didn't say the class was bad. It does exactly what it is intended to do. Issue is, why even risk a fight that you need to fight around an anchor-like class when you can roll with a squad that deletes threats before they can even do damage to you. That's why we feel it overall sinks in a ranking, purely compared to other classes. We think anything S - B are perfectly viable classes.
@@LegacyGamingUS I wasn't trying to claim you said it's "bad" I'm more so blown away that it is somehow comparatively worse to things like the Heavy, who is highly dependent on ammo and has no real melee. I also am on a "Bulwark superiority" kick right now since I can't find anything that makes ruthless feel so easy so that's probably a huge contributor to my position.
@@tylerwarwick7975 Yeah that's totally fair. For us, we never run out of ammo when playing as a team and never need to melee. The class isn't meant to be melee focused anyway and when it plays to its strengths properly, it's a really strong pick.
@@LegacyGamingUS Now I understand where our differences in opinion come from, I was looking at the classes in a bubble only thinking of their own perks and loadouts not the bonuses from other classes as well. In that case I actually think the tier list makes a whole lot more sense, it's not so much about the individual class it's about how that class operates within a well crafted team to improve strengths and mitigate weaknesses.
i wish bolt guns were just as viable as melta guns in operations , its just funny too see how warriors(ranged ones) and termagants are just bullet sponges above diff 2 wich kinda ruins the whole feeling of the boltfire Im not asking for "lore" bolt guns since most things would die to less than 3 or 4 well placed shots (even Carnifexes) but it certaintly would be awesome to see that weapon actually KILLS even bigger fish or at very least make it viable to mow down swarms of small fry when you cant pin point the heads and make life easier for heavies and assaults plus tts just tiring to see almost every tactical ,myself included, run underbarrel gl
Vanguard not that good in PVP? Legitimately W take. I appreciate the good insight here. I think the sniper in pvp is overrated abit as the cloak shimmering effect exposes it to a more perceptive player, and it value will go down in time as people become better at seeing that, and the snipers shadow.
@@Phobosian yes. I have a fully ranked BW as my first class (PVE). I am always drawing the agro and a melee heavy class should be a bit more high damage - build aside.
Assault over vanguard in PvP feels wrong. They both can pick Off targets but the vanguard Skill stuns and he has a primary weapon. I agree vanguard ist not as strong as a lot of peaple think but it is not weaker than assault.
Good list, but I have to disagree on Vanguard PvP placement. It wins any 1v1, and yes it isnt the "best" in big team fights, it can still disrupt their bulwark or heavy allowing your team to gun them down while stunned. Sniper is arguably worse in team fights, but you put it in S tier.
Dead wrong about assault in pve. Every thunder hammer attack can be canceled and it hits like a fucking truck. Can kill any majoris enemy in 3 button presses.
@@superbit415 Yeah for some reason RUclips is really hit or miss with chaptering actually working when you first release a video. No idea why but it happens all the time.
Assault becomes MUCH more survivable if you stop tunnelvisioning and instead parry the minoris enemies often. I will not say its the best, but it absolutely isn't D tier in PvE.
I do well with all classes in max difficulty even solo. I don't really notice Assault's any worse. I do notice vanguard's squishier due to no invisibility so it's kind of a better coop class, I notice heavy and bulwark are tankier, those kind of things. But assault feels just fine. The +50% dodge window's certainly quite strong. The only thing I'd change is shortening the jetpack cooldown or adding a charge, but it's fine. It's not D-tier, that's quite hyperbolic.
@@requiemagent3014lol you haven’t played bulwark bro. No copium needed. Sure based purely on dps bulwark isn’t the best but a good bulwark is the anchor of a team. Topping everyone off w banner heals and holding all agro w ease. You can no dif solo max difficulty w this class easily
I like assault for pve. With that level 24 perk im spamming ground slam and with level 25 i can spam the dodge when fighting warriors or bosses. It also hits REALLY hard on full windup charge attacks with hammer. If it isnt good, its at least alot of fun to play.
As always, our rankings are our opinions. This is how we rank classes in regards to playing in a team. It is totally fine to disagree, so have a conversation below.
@@LegacyGamingUS ruclips.net/video/RTMQrqm_el4/видео.htmlsi=dmLjoMwwg0TV7hS7
25:46 final tierlist
Thanks man
Goated
Interesting how in PvP where enemies aren't bullet sponges the bolt weapons are actually viable. Maybe the devs could learn from that and apply it to the PvE.
The Q&A they put out directly addressed that. They’re looking at adjusting health pools to make bolt weapons feel better in the higher diffs without hurting other weapon options too.
Remember they did say "It's okay to be overpowered in PVE"
good thing the devs planned to make us Astartes to actually feel powerful in PvE. currently we cant even take damage from minoris enemy nor any reasons to use boltguns to shoot enemy without run out of ammo after 2 encounters....might as well playing as a Cadian and fighting like Darktide melee combat at that point, at least my block and dodging is actually useful against hordes
And maybe tone down the ranged nids and Chaos goat men with shields in pve. Or maybe just don't spawn 1000 of them at a time? A crap ton of nids makes sense, but I think this game needs to call the Chaos Marines the "1 Million Sons" just to be accurate...
@@talkingmudcrab718 whats your complaint ? game is so easy, i want them to send 2,000 at once on me, i will get them all destroyed !!
I just wanted to thank you for having TEXT, not just images in the tier list.
Other than the melta, Vanguard doesn't have great gun selection. Even when they nerf the health bug I will still be zipping and blasting with a melta! If anything I wish there were more melee weapons I could use
Agreed
Vanguard with power fist would have been so fun.
He has 2 solid melee weapon, but yea the melta is only viable primary he has. The adrenaline signature perk is nice (1% heal executing majoris or higher), it may sound not great, but it actually helps you a lot with health bar.
As a Vanguard main, I'm... not sure I entirely agree with this. They absolutely do not compare to the melta, let's be real clear about that, but I've been fucking around with the other two over the last few days, mostly to try and learn what vanguard sustain is like without the massive overheal bug, and the other guns have been doing surprisingly well. The Occulus is easily the worst of the three guns, with pretty reasonable damage output, but poor accuracy and penetration mean it's mostly for softening hordes and hipfiring from close range. It gets the job done, but that's about the extent of it. I had expected complete trash, but I walked away finding it broadly acceptable; it's biggest flaw simply being that the melta is just that much better.
The Instigator, on the other hand, with its 3 round burst and high accuracy, I've found a great deal of success with. It chews through hordes at max range, with easy headshots on gaunts and tzaangors from almost any angle, and will kill any of them in one headshot. Really lets you clean up packs of minors before they can swarm you, and in a pinch can deal with majors relatively well too (even if you're still generally better off using melee for them). Running it makes for a pretty different playstyle, and it's a fair bit of fun, though admittedly trying to do higher difficulty content with a lower level Instigator is a recipe for a bad time.
That said, I'm 100% with you on the more melee weapons train. I've found quite a bit of success grabbing the Balanced chainsword and running the +50% perfect parry window perk (functionally making the balanced chainsword into a fencing chainsword in practice), and that has _massively_ increased melee damage compared to the combat knife and even the fencing chainsword. But some more variety on offer would be really nice.
@@igozi5728it’s 10% heal not 1% btw. The written text is wrong.
The devs have already stated the overheal is unintentionally and will be patched with the next patch
@@requiemagent3014Are you dense? It was statements put out by the publisher of the game. It is 100% OFFICIAL
Bro, je Q&A was linked by a FOCUS STAFF MEMBER on their DISCORD in the accouncement section.
Ofc it's legit what are you talking about
Saber Interactive’s twitter account straight up retweeted the exact article posted by Focus Entertainment you are claiming to be fake news
@@requiemagent3014 I said retweets. not what they tweeted out themselves. scroll down their timeline and you’ll see the truth for yourself
@@requiemagent3014 "fake news" it's literally posted on steam for the game are you an idiot? seeing this level of delulu commentary seconds after your prior reply to me in another comment is actual hilarity. literal copium.
Ahh the pvp and also the pvp list
BULWARK at B Tier on PVE is wild.
they dont do much damage is why
Because melee damage currently is underwhelming. They are the best support class in the game though.
@@WesternXC then youre using the class wrong. If you build Bulwark properly it doesnt even need to swing its sword to clear ads.
@@gravity579 “damage only” is a terrible barometer if a class is good or not. In this game where survivability matters esp. in harder difficulty, the Bulwark outshines the other classes. Cant already count the times where Im the only remaining character alive and I had to kill all the enemies through attrition to keep the mission going. If built properly, the Bulwark can outlast the densest enemies.
In most tier list, other than this one, the Bulwark is almost at S or A at least
@@sp00kdagul Here is the problem with that. As people get better at the game and running the missions, Bulwark's utility gets worse. Me and my friends are at the point where we can deal with a Carnifex plus Zoanthrope spawn at the same time (Tactical, Heavy and Sniper). So having one of us dealing 30% of the damage does not feel too attractive.
Edit: Just to specify I am talking about ruthless.
He played 400 hours in a game that came out 400 hours before the video. That a gamer here...
I say Heavy is High A/A+. In my opinion, Heavy is A on Tyrranid missions, but S specifically on Chaos missions, so it evens out.
This is mostly due to the applicability of Iron Halo. In Tyrranid missions where Melee is the standard, it won't save you or help divert damage nearly as often as in Chaos missions where Ranged is the standard.
What do you use in chaos missions as heavy? I'm new
@BREAKocean tbh just use Multi-Melta. It staggers bigger enemies, does a lot of damage, and shreds crowds.
'Cept on boss sections, then Plasma is your best bet. Thing'll take out the Hellbeast in 4 shots on the lowest difficulty.
@@hot_soup4319 thanks!!
The heavy is B Tier at best because everything that he does there are classes who do it better.
Awesome video , bro. As a huge PvE fan ( Gears horde mode & Division & Division 2 ) I'm excited to buy this game and try out tactical class.
Thank you
Sincerely, New Subscriber
I solo ruthless with my bulwark. Parry area damage plus shock just deletes everything. It's an easy S tier for me.
@@requiemagent3014bro really be in here actingn like its /v/
@@requiemagent3014 that's just a small part of the rest of the build. Didn't think I'd have to detail out every aspect and weapon perk and playstyle. 🤣
@@raunaknandi7831can't wait to see the private lobbie with him soloing as the sniper I gotta see this cuz I know a bully can solo a mission
@@requiemagent3014 point on the doll where the Bulwark touched you
The parrying is great, and so is the plasma, but it’s still undeniably worse than the S-tier classes or Vanguard. Parrying is a bit of a problem right now, as melee feels weak across the board, with most of the viability of swinging your sword/hammer coming from the follow up reflex shots. I love my bulwark, I’m functionally immortal, but sniper, tac, heavy, and vanguard are all just that much better.
Vanguard PVP being in B is criminal. I do think it needs the ability to vault onto ledges it grapples to, but there is no denying how immensely powerful the ability is for taking out targets. It is an instant win for any 1v1 engagement. In team fights it breaks up front line issues like a heavy with their halo or a bulwark with a shield. Going into an outnumbered fight blindly grappling to the enemy will get you killed, but you aren't gonna see a bulwark using banner alone when its away from objectives and you're not gonna see a sniper rush towards an enemy before turning invisible. Just because someone hasn't figured out how to use their ability yet doesn't mean it is bad, it just means that they need to learn how to use it effectively.
When it comes to the Vanguard, I have to extremely disagree. He, by far, has the most buggy and unpredictable ability of all of the classes. And even when it does work, which when it does, it's pretty awesome ngl. But I still don't think it's as good as the jetpack.
The class should be lower than B tier imo. You cant even get up on some of the high ground ledges because there isn't a wall high enough to grapple on to, too land on it, not to even mention that the grapple animation takes forever. The assult is just better. This is coming from someone who is max rank on pvp and has gotten all the cosmetics for every class. (Meaning I've won a minimum of 20 games on each)
I think you guys are heavily undervaluing the Krak grenade.
I would say Krak grenades alone elevate PvP Tactical to A tier.
When using the Tactical class with the Melta and Kraks, you have the fastest TTK in the game outside of a sniper. A single krak grenade + melta shot kills any space marine.
Tactical, with its 2 kraks, actually decent mobility, and auspex scan to shore up the Melta's wildly short range damage falloff, gives you the ability to 1v TEAM.
People in SM2 PVP tend to deathball - sticking together. If you position yourself well, to be close to them without entering line of sight, a Krak and Melta can kill 2 players in a single burst.
2 Kraks with indiscriminate melta spray kills entire teams.
It also neatly counters Bulwarks, as when a Krak detonates on a Bulwark it staggers them and knocks their shield away, allowing you to instantly kill them with no counter.
Krak is love Krak is life.
Kraks are definitely strong, won't deny that at all. Issue is you trade immediate kill potential for survivability, which is totally fine. That's balanced that way in our opinion.
Thats exactly where i would rank them too at least for PvP. I don't think there is a bad Class but i feel like if you don't pick Sniper, Assault or Bulwark you are genuinely handicapping yourself because they are so frustrating to deal with. Assault suffers in closed spaces where there is a ceiling but in open spaces a good Assault player is terrifying. The damage from the Jump and the Hammer is absolutely crazy. No idea why people say this class is weak in PvP.
Honestly even in closed spaces with a ceiling the assault still has his jetpack dodges to finish off any enemies or close the gap to do a lot of damage with the hammer. He can still get away well too.
Assault's perseverance perk does not work its so annoying and there are couple more perks that seems not working properly
Melta weapons are just Dominant Strategy. They aren't actually the best weapons, far from it, they're just the easiest to use. There is nothing inherent to the the Melta weapons that causes the overhealing mechanic. It occurs when you have any amount of contested health and kill multiple enemies at once. I have personally done it with the Heavy Bolter, Bolter Rifle (both normal fire and the Grenade Launcher variants), Melta Rifle, Multi Melta, Bolt Pistol (yes seriously), Plasma Pistol, Plasma Incinerator, and Heavy Plasma Incinerator. I'm pretty sure you can also pull it off with the Las Fusil as well, though haven't tried it yet myself, this is because it has very high penetration and some AoE damage (that I think can be upgraded in its perk tree).
@@requiemagent3014 Yeah I've got about 95 hours played, probably 87 in operations. I agree with the assessment. I'm a bit worried that they're going to dial down the difficulty too much because of the impotent whinging online. Most people that I've seen complaining just haven't learned the basic survivability mechanics yet. They would rather everything be tuned down to triviality than learn the basic combat mechanics. I've been playing solo and despite that I've been crushing Ruthless difficulty. I was looking forward to the increased difficulty level coming out but after this response I'm worried they'll lower the other difficulties and slot it in where Ruthless was.
I am rocking heavy with multi melta, and on highest difficulty it is great experience. I need to watch my ammo but beside that, very good class💪
Multi melta might be the easiest from an ammo conservation perspective. You have essentially free shots into hordes, and you can easily regenerate ammo on Majoris enemies.
@@DCTriv Yes, but in practice it is not always like You want it to be, so... beter watch Your ammo😉
@masterbkb I don't think I've ever run out of ammo using any melta varient there's more than enough even on ruthless just don't spam mindlessly
@@johnherrera5261 ok I won't 🫡
Sniper with that fast firing carbine is goated. Game changer.
Vanguard with long range carbine actually an S-tier in PvP - he can win 1v1 with any class, well not only win you can’t possibly escape from him, he has 2nd best mobility around map and he can provide tons of long range dmg with his long range carbine
Yeah that burst rifle is the best gun in PvP, I dunno about this tier list. Vanguard is crazy in 1v1 and at range
Classes aren't ranked in a vacuum of 1v1s. When it comes to actual team play, they fall short.
@@LegacyGamingUS over a second of a full stun makes it S rank by default even in team fights
@@LegacyGamingUS Nah, the Vanguard is excellent in PvP squad play, its a reliable counter to bulwark frontlines with a team. It can also flank easily to disrupt a enemy front line in preparation for your squads assault. B tier is wrong
@@fr0gzz Vanguards are super easy to kill even when they get the jump on you. The only time I die to vanguards is if there are multiple people shooting at me when he grapples me. They are good, but not great.
After playing 50 hours of assault I completely agree. You are so vulnerable throughout the pve missions, especially on higher tiers compared to every other class, it’s hard to clear groups of enemies without your jump pack and the abilities to get your jump pack back are very hard to pull off. On top of that using the hammer is so slow and the enemies hit for so much at higher difficulties you walk away from encounters really low health or dead. Something has to be buffed because I’m not doing enough damage to make me losing my health worth it. I just stick to using the pistol now so I don’t have to constantly die, swap to hammer occasionally against solo targets
Tactical B tier in pvp? U must be joking, tactical always has the highest k/d ratio in any game, tactical is easily above anything. I carried my team in a 4v5 matchup and won easily. Absolutely disagree with u here
Agreed. Tactical easily one of the strongest in PvP. Three armour, 2x grenades and the best guns in the game currently.
Maps that have grenande caches that are close by 2 each other (Like the one map I forgot the name of) Make the tactical beyond S tier with shocks. It's ridiculous.
I main heavy in pvp and it’s hands down S tier, even against bulwarks or vanguards, a shock grenade immediately counters them both. If you have quick reaction time a snipers surprise factor is negated to iron halo. If it’s a heavy vs heavy my tip is to wait until you take some dmg first and cut through their shield and then pop yours. It’s basically a game of chicken lol. Every game i drop more than 15 kills and get number one for objective and assists, while my teammates are usually having to be carried by me. Just my own opinion though
Pvp tactical counters sniper, vanguard, assault and even heavy because of its ability and nade spam tactics.
Vanguard completely counters heavy and bulwark.
Assault doesn't counter anyone it's just jump in jump out basically like the sniper.(still very good in their own right)
Bulwark counters the heavy, tactical.
Thank you sir for saving my time.
For Venguard in pvp chainsword will be good or do I need to go for knife?
@@GerdionXT i prefer the chainsword because it's what I'm used to but I believe the knife is better especially after stunning someone you can hit them once or twice before the stun fully ends vs the chainsword during your first swing the stun ends. Melee going through armor is op.
As an assualt player i think it needs help but i dont think its as bad as people say. Once you level up fully its pretty damn fun and the thunder hammer becomes great imo. That being said i hope it gets a couple minor buffs to make it really shine.
I only had to look at the perk trees to see that the assault was lacking in PVE compared to other classes. The class needs some serious love to get it up near the other classes.
The last signature perk is useless imo, It's high-risk for little reward. They should replace it with the Red Thirst as a nod to Blood Angels and give the Assault much better survivability in combat by rewarding contested health for kills, larger enemies reward larger pools of contested health.
The signature weapon, the Thunder Hammer, is just painfully slow. Even if you start an attack, enemies will land hits on you before you've finished the animation. There needs to be a knock-back or stun effect when it lands to balance the slowness, or just make it slightly faster.
@@rhysc9706 I think if they gave assault the ability use it has in PVP would be a good start, but I think they need to get armor back if they slam a majoris or higher enemy. Give them some risk vs reward for aggressive play.
Bulwark in A tier for PVE, that’s my only change. Great list and a lot of great talking points. Assault needs PVE buff and tactical needs PVP buff.
I have about 20 hours on Assault in PVP. I will say it’s probably the best class IMO. If you played any other games such as Overwatch you need to play Assault like a flanker and off angle. Jump pack in get a kill and jump pack out.
Use the hammer because if you ground pound on someone it takes one swing from the hammer to get the kill. And if you’re mid swing and need to get out fast you can always parry to cancel the swing. So much fun once you get the hang of it
You can also dodge to cancel attacks as well as parry
Hey @legacygamingUS
Just wanted to say I slightly disagree for Tactical not being considered S-Tier in PVP.
I just maxed out my gearset/cosmetics over a 14 hour pvp session w/ friends yesterday and over 40 wins, and i just wanted to note:
As long as you master or at least become rather proficient at blocking/parrying, you can very much win in melee against snipers, vanguards, and assault. It just takes practice and timing :) Its definitely NOT in your favor, but against opponents who make a mistake in the encounter, you can find openings to win, and endlessly parry/block to survive the attack.
Looking into what my secondary class will be to max out so i found this video, thanks for it very much! just wanted to share my take in what i believe after 45 + wins and constant top fragging with it, why i believe tac is S TIER in pvp.
Great video
Crazy how the subreddit is convinced that Bulwark is S+ tier. Interesting takes overall.
We say the class is very good at what it does. In regards to a ranking of classes though, if we can take 3 classes that delete whole groups of enemies before we even take any damage, then why take a Bulwark? Things need to be more of a threat to warrant a Bulwark, and maybe horde mode and higher difficulties will present that.
@@LegacyGamingUS my hope is that new game modes add to class viability for those that underperform Horde is going to great for the long term of this game
@@requiemagent3014 Dude, chill. I never said they were correct. I just was pointing out the contrast in opinions, that's all.
@@johnherrera5261 I agree, I think Horde will even have it's own separate skewing of class viability when that time comes.
@@LegacyGamingUSIn a way, I feel like the strongest classes are the ones that can hold their own in a worst case scenario. Which is basically just all on your own against a massive wave or something. Which is how I imagine horde mode will be. I imagine there will be a slight difference but will mostly be the same
Keep up the good work.
I think assault can be good if the team comp sets him up to be so. I play him more as a big mob duelist, specing into single target dmg jump pack and gunstrikes (boss sustain goes crazy after parry into gunstrike). If he has someone to deal with the flying dudes and small mobs, he feels great. But without proper support everything is a million times harder
Vanguard being B in PvP is wild. I think a lot of people misunderstand how to play vanguard. Using his grapple to stun enemies should only be in 1v1 situations; you never open a fight using grapple. Instead, you should use the grapple to take height positons and either wait for the enemy, or out flank them. Unlike the Assault, you have a primary weapon. As such, you can just shoot down from height, and once you're sptotted, just hop off on the safe side. Rinse repeat, and you smoke the entire lobby.
Also, grappling to height is pretty easy and consistent if you angle yourself properly
They get melted in control point they do better in TD though .
@Cavemol5823 They actually do better on capture and control, as the enemy team is usually more distracted and is forced to stay on point. All the while, you flank from height and shoot down on them
@@sgt_lil_monster1835 it’s hard when the other team runs 2 bulwarks but I’ll take that into consideration
@@Cavemol5823 You're totally right. The only issue I have run into with the vanguard is that you can't kill bulwarks by taking height or flanking. You legitimately have to wait and hope that your team can do something, or that you have a decent assault.
Very spot on tier list. Bulwark could be argued as a A tier for group play in really difficult chaos missions. Being able to heal team mates to full health every 30 seconds is really powerful.
I played 4 classes at max level. My favourite class so far is vanguard. Vanguard has a fun game play and a satisfying ability but it struggles against ranged enemies. They need to allow grappling to neurothorpe and zoathorpes. Also they are heavily reliant on the melta. A melta nerf would equal to vanguard nerf.
Tactical has a solution for nearly every situation. Terminas level enemy just one head shot. Ranged combat covered with grenade launcher or plasma incinerator. Also they are good in melee.
Bulwark banner every 30s? Are you running with a pre-made Vanguard, Sniper team who just let you get all the executions and headshots? His base cd is like 120 seconds. He's nigh unkillable and can carry a game to victory through sheer attrition(abeit it'll be an extremely slow, painful one if teammates are inadequate), but having to rely on others in quickmatch is the reason he's lower on the list.
... the Heavy's melee goes completely unnoticed... and is one of the most satisfying in the game. Gun-whips, power-stomps, multi-punch combos, flying uppercuts, heel-strikes... and bitch-slaps; the Heavy is the ultimate mixed-martial in the galaxy... and its ultimate juggernaut.
Any melee animations can be canceled with a parry. you are not locked into melee moves 😊
would be nice if dodge also cancels animation but it sadly doesn´t do that.
@@Freakluke274 that would make me actually invest perks into jump pack dodges lol
They can also be cancelled with a dodge
@@mystertom100melee attacks cannot be canceled into a dodge, only a parry. It's one of the main reasons parry is so much stronger than dodge.
@@Slanderbot they can, and I know they can because I do it lol. I think the window is larger with parry but you can literally do a running attack with assault and hammer and literally dodge instantly after the animation starts. It definitely works
This tierlist is cracked
For Bulwark I exclusively use the perk that makes the banner revive teammates and also generate armor 300% faster. You can get you allies up and keep them alive in super sketchy situations. saved my skin multiple times.
But would they have even gone down if you had a class that killed the enemies faster.
That's a band aid solution. They wouldn't be down to begin with if you used a perk that actually useful while they were alive.
"and toss a melta bomb" 2:00 I thought it was placed only how do you do that?
That was a krak grenade, not a melta bomb. You're correct that melta bombs need to be placed on the ground and prepared to remotely detonate. Notice how the grenade stuck to the enemy and detonated by itself, that's not the feature of the melta. I think they said "toss a melta" just as a phrase, but I agree that with the video it got confusing. Happy hunting brother.
Okay I had to pause because that Vanguard B tier pvp ranking is crazy. Which one of you mains vanguard and does not him nerfed? I agree with the mantle up the ledge buff, should be implemented 100%. But your reasons for the class being bad is basically you go in a bad situation, meaning 1v2 or more and you die because you are locked into an animation. That is true for every class except for assault IF he manages to jump behind EVERY opponent. In a 1v1 situation vanguard cant be beaten except tossing a frag at your feet to maybe take him out with you. It's excellent at breaking stalemates with a bulwark where you have backup like you said, and sure it does not have assaults mobility when it comes to running, but then every class is bad in pvp. You will die in PvP, if you did a play that disrupts their team and you team can capitalize on that, and the class enables you to do that, it cant be a B tier class. Same goes for tactical, its not the best class in pvp but its not B tier. Again repeating myself, scan to tag parts of the team behind corners and enable stealth snipers and assaults to jump in more freely is a must when it comes to organized pvp.
I guess my point is your ranking for pvp seems to me like its taking the classes strengths when you go lone wolf while at the same time saying you should not play lone wolf and just jump on the first engagement you see.
It's analyzing both their solo and team play contribution. Vanguard is very clearly meant to jump and disrupt players, and it excels at that, but everytime we had a coordinated team on comms, even when a Vanguard jumped someone, they died before the grapple even could complete, which effectively gave the enemy team nothing to capitalize off of. It's definitely a class that excels at hunting down and picking off Snipers, Tacticals, etc that are on the backlines, but as soon as anyone uses Shock Grenades, that one utility invalidates most of a Vanguard's alpha damage. We're basically saying the class is decent, but experienced players can very easily counter it and render its kit ineffective.
@@LegacyGamingUS again I have to disagree...replace every instance of vanguard with assault in your statement, and after that I don't understand why would you put assault above vanguard. If assault jumps directly in front of everyone he will die before the jump finishes, same goes for vanguard which seems to be your experience. If you grapple into the enemy team and die before you reach the enemy than you did the wrong play. And that's not the classes fault. Assault can jump from a flank easier than a vanguard can, and that's the only thing that's better with assault compared to vanguard. "as soon as anyone uses Shock Grenades, that one utility invalidates most of a Vanguard's alpha damage
", I mean for which class is this not the case?
Vanguard has an A tier weapon for pvp, he wins all 1v1. If you are fast enough you can kill a carbine sniper that ambushes you if you counter right away with hook...granted its hard and almost no chance if he comes right behind you, but still its doable. He can grapple ledges to flank the enemy team, which you should be doing. Again, its sometimes harder, but after a few hours you know the spots to consistently do it. If you grapple flank and toss a Shock Grenade into the enemy team, your team can push in. If you die doesn't matter, you did your job.
Without turning this into a way too lengthy comment, I am saying that surprisingly all classes are useful and kind of balanced. The PvP is not meant to be something where you just go around and kill people without dying and getting these huge kill streaks. Don't get me wrong, that can and will happen, but if you look at the whole scope of the match it often does not matter. Even if its team deathmatch, you could be jumping in, kill two people and die, leaving you with a KDA of 2.0...but you jumped alone all the time and your team was fighting 5v6 every team engagement and lose. Tactical is all around good, with grenades can counter anyone, Bulwark can hold objectives and counter Heavy, but Vanguard can stun them and kill, Sniper can counter Vanguard if they surprise but after that Assault can surprise anyone because gamers don't look up and so on and so on...although, Assault needs 3 armor. It even makes lore sense because he does not wear Phobos armor that normally has two.
If you shock grenade a Vanguard, he's dead in the water. If you shock grenade an assault, they simply lunch into the air and the effect wears off. Vanguard can only approach from horizontal visibility most of the time, with a few exceptions being elevated terrain that you need to expend a grapple to get to. Assault can hit from anywhere in a spherical direction, can come over walls, dash through doorways into an immediate pommel strike, etc. The assault can also deploy shocks from the air during a jump. Vanguards cannot. The Assault out performs the Vanguard in every single aspect.
It should not be b tier at all. One v one potential is crazy.
And once you level up a bit vanguard has the best ranged rifle in the game
@@LegacyGamingUS If you shock grenade an assault, they simply launch into the air and the effect wears off...what about the guy who tossed the grenade? Does he choose not to shoot you because you are in the air? What about when you are in a corridor that has a celling and you go nowhere basically? First you say in the video that assault is vulnerable in the air and that you cant just jump whenever but now once you are attacked, blinded and being shoot at you can jump in the air and all is well...Assault cannot hit anywhere in a spherical direction, you can do it once, after that the enemy team expects that and than you can go to the flanks...alongside the vanguards. The Assault out performs nothing, it is perfectly viable and fun, my favorite to play but saying that vanguard is worse than assault just seems to me like you spent most of your games stomping the other less experienced team where assault shines.
Tbh, as far as PVE is concerned, once you learn to parry any class is viable also Bulwark is a prime example of why gun strikes should not have I frames its so easy to stand in a crowd and whittle away the enemy with gun strikes and parry fields
@@requiemagent3014 according to who sone random tier list is that all ot takes to sway your opinion have you actually played every class? Quit dickriding if you truly believe he's the secind worst than it just proves my point even more that gun strikes shouldn't have I frames if the "second worst" class can abuse them
@@requiemagent3014Bulwark is easily the best class in the game, don’t even need weapons just parry.
To many players look at raw dps. I look at class synergy. Sniper for regening class skill, Tactical scans for DPS boost and Bulwark for armor and health regen.
My team settled on this setup and it works very well.
Seeing you put Assault in D for PvE and A for PvP tells me everything I need to know about how awful this tier list is 😂
The icing was you putting Heavy, the best PvP class in B….
Yeah, dude doesn’t know how to play Assault. Such a bad tier list….
All those hours to have an L take
What take?
Vanguard is absolutely the best class in PvE, and the margin is so wide I would say he gaps the game. If he’s S Tier the next class is in B Tier.
All of the other classes suffer from the weakness of the time until their ability comes back, but that issue is completely nullified with him. Furthermore he can heal 10% on Majoris kills with his level 25 ability. Not only have I had solo runs on Ruthless, I have had no stim runs with him where he’s almost constantly at full health. I’d also like to add there that I fight EVERY SINGLE ENEMY. The benefit to that is that he also allows 3 players of items now be rationed between 2 players.
The vanguard is ridiculously disgusting since he can handle everything Extremis and below while also culling the entire horde with the chain swords stomp, which is made even more ridiculous when you have Fencing as your defense tier.
His only true weakness is Terminus enemies, particularly the Neurothrope. All other Terminus, the Carnifax and Helbrute will often take around 50% of their damage from the Vanguard when you combo the Melta into the equation.
He is ridiculous, he is absurd, he is obscene, and everything in between. A well trained vanguard carries the run every single time, which also allows you to bring under leveled players into Ruthless to get them early Gold Armory Tokens.
bulwark can block melee hits in pvp if its not a running light or a heavy attack so not really a weakness, imo he rated tactical way to low b/c they have the fastest time to kill and counter assault really hard if they are skilled. and 3rd no way sniper is the best in pvp you can see him when he's cloak unless your blind. he doesn't offer that anchor role or covering fire or bunker busting like chaos that makes they enemy team look away from the bulwark or heavy. sniper is still good but more like A tier and the 3rd or 4th pick i would want in my team . Overall i feel he doesn't have much experience vs good people in pvp like much of what he said only applies vs a bad team. I think it really helps playing every class so you know what are strong and weak match ups are. Pretty much every class can go 20 kills 1 death if you know your openings, match ups and game mode. they all matters some classes are way weaker in different game modes in pvp. With the melta fix coming next patch I think vanguard and heavy will get hit the hardest in pve sniper and bulwark and tactical will stay the same.
The real S tier is the Darktide soundtrack in the background
The fun thing is playing as a team to lock down the vanguard does not work...as the 2 others on the vanguard team comes in and wrecks you from behind so :/
So you being flanked is the game's fault?
its just the same as with assault. don´t go in first so u don´t get focused. i don´t know why assault is higher than vanguard in pvp.
Even though Assault is deemed the worst for PvE, as Emperor is my witness, I LOVE me some warhammer action.
Just dropping by to say we miss the SM2 updates 😊
This is one of the most informed videos of objective mechanical analysis I've seen. Well executed brother Legatus!
Does the overhealing with Meltas (or other guns) only work with higher tier variants? Cause for me, hitting even a full swarm doesn't even heal all contested health, let alone overheal.
do you know how overheal works?, if you get hit you have contested health(white health), which you can heal back, weapons who kill a lot or deal dmg to multiple enemies at once tricks the system and gives you healing for all targets hit/killed. also there are perks for example tactical which gives you 30% extra contested health back.
@@Toyohisa_R As I said, I shoot a full swarm of 15 to 20 enemies with a melta, and no matter if my contested health is like 5% or 50%, I heal basically nothing.
@@TheUnrealPrastimost probably you arent doing it right. Because it overheals up till now. We can play a match now and i can let you know how to do it
@@requiemagent3014 Incredible cope to believe something written on the steam page of the game isn't confirmation because you don't want it to be true.
@@requiemagent3014 The steam Q&A is the same one that's on the publishers website AND has been retweeted by both saber and the space marine accounts. Maybe the Q&A has not been done by the devs themselves, but to me it looks about as legit as can be.
Man i really hope we can use some of these move sets in a dlc or future game
I feel as though too many people are undervaluing the rest of the bulwarks perks in PVE.
I actually think the Shock Build is worse then just taking all the perks that make you tankier like.
I think Bulwark is the absolute tank. The undeniable Last man standing. I think in PVE if you die on bulwark at all you aint playing the class. right.
Def struggle with the Melee dammage. but PVE Ranking ? A not S but 100% A
You don’t need defense when one parry nukes a city block around you. Bulwark has more than enough survivability in its base kit, commit to the parry build and watch everything just die when it get close.
It’s cool and all to have the extra tankiness, but you really don’t need it. After all, going more into offense means less things to attack you, means more tankiness.
I think Bulwark should be A for PVE :) try playing Ruthless difficulty and see Bulwark's survivability and the whole team is dying left and right! the only class can block everything except those stuff unable to block, bulwark is good for CC and diversion.
He’s B Tier only because the Vanguard is S Tier by such an unfairly wide margin it doesn’t feel fair to put anything else directly beneath him.
When do you change classes? Is it in the solo campaign or is it only multiplayer modes?
Classes are in multiplayer modes. Operations and PvP
I high key got mad when I lost a 1v1 with a powerfist against a low hp sniper. That was the first time I rage quit a PvP match
Anything is viable at max level and you know how to freaking parry and play smart
viable doesnt mean fun
What in the emperor’s sacred name does Livid think he’s doing with the mouse shaking at the end of the Assault PvP section. Throne…
I agree with all these except bulwark PVE ranking. Should be high A at least.
Me carrying my team as bulwark on ruthless effortlessly 😂
Did he say, "toss a melta bomb"?! 😳
Also you can see in the video his „melta bomb“ went off by its own 😂
Vanguard is S tier to me. -15% cool down FIFTEEN on a finisher. You know how long some of class abilities take to get back up and running and you can shorten it like it’s nothing FOR THE WHOLE TEAM. Also even if overheal gets fixed we have a 10% heal with the final perk. I dismissed it because 1% sounds ridiculous but the wording is wrong. For all my vanguard brothers give it a try.
Dont nerf the melta. Its what that weapon is ment for also on tabletop. High damage not great range. As soon they fix the hp recover from hitting mobs. It will change a little already
Best team is vanguard and tac with melta and bolter with nads with a sniper las....it just slaps
Tier Lists, every Game needs a tier lists. I lost so many games in PvP because of the Sniper and Vanguard Players. They want only kills but no Teamplay. And they are so easy to kill especially the snipers with their tunnel vision.
I don't think I can agree with your assessment of Bulwark in PVE, it's easily high A tier low S tier. The only enemy that gives me any trouble on a consistent basis is when two Zoanthropes show up but if it's just one or a Neurothrope I'm not even close to worried. The point I'm trying to make is that Bulwark could solo ruthless if you want to take the time to do it and I'm not so convinced that every other class is able to survive like that.
Again we didn't say the class was bad. It does exactly what it is intended to do. Issue is, why even risk a fight that you need to fight around an anchor-like class when you can roll with a squad that deletes threats before they can even do damage to you. That's why we feel it overall sinks in a ranking, purely compared to other classes. We think anything S - B are perfectly viable classes.
@@requiemagent3014 I'm only hearing "I have skill issues that require higher damage to correct."
@@LegacyGamingUS I wasn't trying to claim you said it's "bad" I'm more so blown away that it is somehow comparatively worse to things like the Heavy, who is highly dependent on ammo and has no real melee. I also am on a "Bulwark superiority" kick right now since I can't find anything that makes ruthless feel so easy so that's probably a huge contributor to my position.
@@tylerwarwick7975 Yeah that's totally fair. For us, we never run out of ammo when playing as a team and never need to melee. The class isn't meant to be melee focused anyway and when it plays to its strengths properly, it's a really strong pick.
@@LegacyGamingUS Now I understand where our differences in opinion come from, I was looking at the classes in a bubble only thinking of their own perks and loadouts not the bonuses from other classes as well. In that case I actually think the tier list makes a whole lot more sense, it's not so much about the individual class it's about how that class operates within a well crafted team to improve strengths and mitigate weaknesses.
I have yet to see a sniper top frag consistently.
Melee needs a buff
i wish bolt guns were just as viable as melta guns in operations , its just funny too see how warriors(ranged ones) and termagants are just bullet sponges above diff 2 wich kinda ruins the whole feeling of the boltfire
Im not asking for "lore" bolt guns since most things would die to less than 3 or 4 well placed shots (even Carnifexes) but it certaintly would be awesome to see that weapon actually KILLS even bigger fish
or at very least make it viable to mow down swarms of small fry when you cant pin point the heads and make life easier for heavies and assaults
plus tts just tiring to see almost every tactical ,myself included, run underbarrel gl
How do you get the marksman carbine for the tactical class in the pvp mode?
pvp list is interesting fs. don't think I agree but interesting none the less
are you going to make a video about what you feel should be changed in the next patch?
I think we'd rather see where the developers themselves plan to go first and go from there.
Vanguard not that good in PVP? Legitimately W take. I appreciate the good insight here. I think the sniper in pvp is overrated abit as the cloak shimmering effect exposes it to a more perceptive player, and it value will go down in time as people become better at seeing that, and the snipers shadow.
i was gonna say. from years of halo experience the active camo has trained me well haha
As long as yall are kind to my Vanguard I’ll respect it😂👌🏾
Vanguard is top tier in pve but in pvp the gun you have to start with is ass needs buff in my opinion
Tactical and sniper can pretty much one shot bosses
Assault is SS tier, it just makes you work for it!
The bulwark melee needs a buff big time. I’d like to keep up with the gun damage please!
The class isn't meant to be dps rltgayd be silly plus with specific perks and gun strikes you're whittling away giant crowds of enemies regardless
@@vik1837 you talking pve?
@@Phobosian yes. I have a fully ranked BW as my first class (PVE). I am always drawing the agro and a melee heavy class should be a bit more high damage - build aside.
is sniper smg viable in pve in higher difficulties?
How do you rank vanguard A tier but sniper S tier that makes 0 sense
Because we think Sniper is easily the best class. Excellent engage and disengage and super strong burst damage.
Assault over vanguard in PvP feels wrong.
They both can pick Off targets but the vanguard Skill stuns and he has a primary weapon.
I agree vanguard ist not as strong as a lot of peaple think but it is not weaker than assault.
Is the banner bugged because it doesn't do the contested health anymore
anyone know his settings?? 🙏🙏🙏🙏commented on an older video but since it was older didn't know of people would see it.......
Good list, but I have to disagree on Vanguard PvP placement. It wins any 1v1, and yes it isnt the "best" in big team fights, it can still disrupt their bulwark or heavy allowing your team to gun them down while stunned. Sniper is arguably worse in team fights, but you put it in S tier.
Dead wrong about assault in pve. Every thunder hammer attack can be canceled and it hits like a fucking truck. Can kill any majoris enemy in 3 button presses.
Yes sir! Assault is so good, when you know how to play. And so much fun!
The knife that blocks only does 14 damage and the hammer only 10
heavy is the best pve and pvp class
For me it was heavy nothing else comes close assault is fun to play but really needs reworks.
@@requiemagent3014not necessarily in range tho
Best class is the one you're the best with
But good info here
Agreed :)
@@LegacyGamingUS Boom, subscription earned.
@@requiemagent3014 Tell me you're desperate for attention without telling me
Solid ranking 👍
I feel like this would have been better as two different videos. So people who aren't interested in one or the other mode can just get what they want.
Everything is chaptered so you can jump to each one. That feature tends to bug out though if you aren't seeing them, it's in the description.
@@LegacyGamingUS Yeah and its very helpful but I meant pvp vs pve being separated.
@@superbit415 They are. I just removed and re-pasted them in. Seems to have taken this time.
@@LegacyGamingUS I see what you mean now. Yeah took some time wasn't there when I watched the video. Thanks thats great.
@@superbit415 Yeah for some reason RUclips is really hit or miss with chaptering actually working when you first release a video. No idea why but it happens all the time.
So the best way to play sniper in PvP is to not play like a sniper at all? nice.
Assault becomes MUCH more survivable if you stop tunnelvisioning and instead parry the minoris enemies often.
I will not say its the best, but it absolutely isn't D tier in PvE.
Wrong
It’s the weakest PVE class. Stop the cap. 🧢
I do well with all classes in max difficulty even solo. I don't really notice Assault's any worse. I do notice vanguard's squishier due to no invisibility so it's kind of a better coop class, I notice heavy and bulwark are tankier, those kind of things. But assault feels just fine. The +50% dodge window's certainly quite strong. The only thing I'd change is shortening the jetpack cooldown or adding a charge, but it's fine. It's not D-tier, that's quite hyperbolic.
@@requiemagent3014lol you haven’t played bulwark bro. No copium needed. Sure based purely on dps bulwark isn’t the best but a good bulwark is the anchor of a team. Topping everyone off w banner heals and holding all agro w ease. You can no dif solo max difficulty w this class easily
I like assault for pve. With that level 24 perk im spamming ground slam and with level 25 i can spam the dodge when fighting warriors or bosses. It also hits REALLY hard on full windup charge attacks with hammer. If it isnt good, its at least alot of fun to play.
Welcome everyone take a seat and enjoy
I think tactical should have 2 armour and assault should have 3.
the assault has way more mobility and the tac doesn't.
Control point heavy 2 2 bulwark 1 tact
I can’t even do the easiest level pve missions 😅
Tactical in B tier for pvp is criminal 😂 def S tier. You don’t not need movement if you have good positioning or a solid team.
Is there any point in using the plasma incinerator?
@@requiemagent3014 they’re gonna fix the melta though, so after that, is everything gonna suck?