“The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools.” - Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War, 410 BC
@@RidleyHolmes-sr2tw I think it's only ever been relevant today, or relatively recently. Defintely agree with the sentiment nowadays but that wasn't an issue in archaic Greece, seems like a misquote to me.
@@ufc990 I tend to agree. Although Athena represented wisdom and strategic war, a fusion of intellectual and warrior. I don't remember Thucydides writing aphorisms like that quote however. He seemed to let the narrative speak for itself. I have a natural aversion to aphorisms anyway.
Good guy that Thucydides; the more serious, analytical historian to Herodotus’s pop history. Both are necessary and valuable. Great intro video, looking forward to the next.
What I most like about you episodes are the rip roaring enthusiasm you have for the subject. You have inspired me to take up Livy and Tacitus! Thank you!
Fantastic setup! I think the ‘contexting’ videos are a terrific idea, it really helps to make the subject accessible. As it happens, a prof that I greatly love and admire unfortunately had no great way to approach Thucydides, and I remember it being the single most difficult text to get into. Perhaps it was just the translation (Rex Warner, Penguin), but it was just so slow and dry, I got nothing out of it. Seems like you’re going to do much better on this one, keep it up 🙌
When I first read the History of The Peloponnesian War (mandatory reading in Greek high schools) I always thought that for the Melian dialogue the author was trying to convey the essence of what was said, and the actual people involved used a more diplomatic language to veil their threats, because the text is so brutal. Then the invasion of Ukraine happened
that herodotus/thucydides parallel makes a lot of sense to why it took so long for him to be valued. we do the same thing with music and shows and other entertainment now, making pieces of entertainment “cult classics” years after they were written off. we haven’t evolved one bit since their times. 😂
This parallel is also more mind blowing if you consider that for the actual science of History Herodotus is thought as the alpha (he was the first, named father of History) while Thucydides as the omega (the true historian of today's standards) and both of them living during the same time period. The main reason why Thucydides was originally undervalued was that he was explaining a lesser war conflict between two Greek city states, Athens and Sparta, while Herodotus was explaining a clash of two different civilisations, the Persians and the Greeks.
Thucydides' life is also more complex than Herodotus' one. Both from a sociopolitical point of view at the time (the rise and fall of Athens) as well as from a military perspective and even a physio-psychological one. He was a soldier (a general) and a huge failure on this role, suffering from what we would call now modern-day PTSD (all his friends died before him during the war), a survivor of the Athenian Plague (an epidemic of the time) and an exile (persona non grata) from his beloved city. Most probably with an ''inferiority complex'' towards Herodotus who preceded him (as mentioned in his prologue). So, he indeed suffered during his whole lifetime and most probably died before finishing his work. So, in other words, a truly messed up Athenian :) Kudos to you, Erica, for taking up this fascinating subject matter!
You seem like nice, positive person...and Thucydides is a "Study in Pessimism" (of course, there's a book or two about it). At least this is what I got out of it in my senior seminar back in the early 1990s. I don't quite remember "who" Thucydides was writing "for" as opposed to Herodotus writing to influence Pericles--to not let power get to his head (as it did). Thucydides did have an axe to grind, and he certainly let the democrats in Athens know his displeasure (especially being part of the "Kimon" oligarch party). Perhaps that is what got him "murdered"...the abrupt ending was noted in Antiquity, and those rumors were still being spread in the 2nd century AD. My favorite paraphrase (from Ancient Greek) in the Melian dialog--after the Spartan Envoy speaks...the Athenian Envoy states, "Hope, that destroyer of men.". Not the exact words, but the exact sentiment.
I find it interesting both Thucydides and Xenophon were Sparta-philic . They were both aristocrats and Xenophon would work for Sparta. Thucydides is both the father / grandfather of history depending on how one views Herodotus. Great writing.
Thucydides got lucky when he was exiled. He had a gold mine. He had friends and was respected. Given the nature of Athenian politics, being ostracized was no disgrace. I wonder if he had bodyguards with him as he traveled.
I've read Herodotus, Xenophon, Arrian & Polybius, but i started Thucydides and didn't finish it, i think i lost the book or moved house and left it behind, i need to restart that
The Thracian link to Thucydides is based on, as you rightly mentioned, his father's name Olorus. Olorus was the name of a Thracian king a generation and half earlier who was the brother-in-law of Miltiades, the Athenian who won the battle of Marathon. However, what the connection between two Oloruses was remains a mystery.
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“The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools.”
- Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War, 410 BC
Thanks for posting this quote. I think it is relevant today.
@@RidleyHolmes-sr2tw I think it's only ever been relevant today, or relatively recently. Defintely agree with the sentiment nowadays but that wasn't an issue in archaic Greece, seems like a misquote to me.
@@ufc990 I tend to agree. Although Athena represented wisdom and strategic war, a fusion of intellectual and warrior.
I don't remember Thucydides writing aphorisms like that quote however. He seemed to let the narrative speak for itself.
I have a natural aversion to aphorisms anyway.
Good guy that Thucydides; the more serious, analytical historian to Herodotus’s pop history. Both are necessary and valuable. Great intro video, looking forward to the next.
Thank you so much for doing Thucydides absolutely cannot wait! I also have the Landmark series call Thucydides !! So...... off we go, yipee !!!
🎉🎉🎉
Thanks again for all the great, insightful content. 👍🏻
Thanks for watching! 🤓
Pardon me for quibbling, but she's not doing 'content,' she's offering 'context.' Big difference!
@@Ericwest1000 “my name is Eric West and people think I’m really annoying and pedantic for some reason.”
Thank you for your amazing channel and all the content, you talk about! Very informative
What I most like about you episodes are the rip roaring enthusiasm you have for the subject. You have inspired me to take up Livy and Tacitus! Thank you!
Thank you so much for watching 🥹🫶🏼
Fantastic setup! I think the ‘contexting’ videos are a terrific idea, it really helps to make the subject accessible. As it happens, a prof that I greatly love and admire unfortunately had no great way to approach Thucydides, and I remember it being the single most difficult text to get into. Perhaps it was just the translation (Rex Warner, Penguin), but it was just so slow and dry, I got nothing out of it. Seems like you’re going to do much better on this one, keep it up 🙌
You're wonderful! I'm happy just to be sharing the world at the same time that you're exploring it with such style and vitality!
Thank you :)
Ah! Another new writer to get to know. Much obliged!
😇🤓
When I first read the History of The Peloponnesian War (mandatory reading in Greek high schools) I always thought that for the Melian dialogue the author was trying to convey the essence of what was said, and the actual people involved used a more diplomatic language to veil their threats, because the text is so brutal. Then the invasion of Ukraine happened
Yep!
Bravo again, Erica. The U.S Generals (ΣΤΡΑΤΗΓΟΙ) study ΘΟΥΚΙΔΙΔΗΣ, among others... A Greek friend, Nikephoros.
:)
that herodotus/thucydides parallel makes a lot of sense to why it took so long for him to be valued. we do the same thing with music and shows and other entertainment now, making pieces of entertainment “cult classics” years after they were written off. we haven’t evolved one bit since their times. 😂
This parallel is also more mind blowing if you consider that for the actual science of History Herodotus is thought as the alpha (he was the first, named father of History) while Thucydides as the omega (the true historian of today's standards) and both of them living during the same time period. The main reason why Thucydides was originally undervalued was that he was explaining a lesser war conflict between two Greek city states, Athens and Sparta, while Herodotus was explaining a clash of two different civilisations, the Persians and the Greeks.
Super glad I found this channel.
🩵
Just subbed. What a great RUclips recommendation!
Thank you!! 😇
Erica. Thanks for having content that is not brainless. You have to know history to know where you are going.
Thanks for watching!
Thucydides' life is also more complex than Herodotus' one. Both from a sociopolitical point of view at the time (the rise and fall of Athens) as well as from a military perspective and even a physio-psychological one. He was a soldier (a general) and a huge failure on this role, suffering from what we would call now modern-day PTSD (all his friends died before him during the war), a survivor of the Athenian Plague (an epidemic of the time) and an exile (persona non grata) from his beloved city. Most probably with an ''inferiority complex'' towards Herodotus who preceded him (as mentioned in his prologue). So, he indeed suffered during his whole lifetime and most probably died before finishing his work. So, in other words, a truly messed up Athenian :) Kudos to you, Erica, for taking up this fascinating subject matter!
You seem like nice, positive person...and Thucydides is a "Study in Pessimism" (of course, there's a book or two about it). At least this is what I got out of it in my senior seminar back in the early 1990s. I don't quite remember "who" Thucydides was writing "for" as opposed to Herodotus writing to influence Pericles--to not let power get to his head (as it did). Thucydides did have an axe to grind, and he certainly let the democrats in Athens know his displeasure (especially being part of the "Kimon" oligarch party). Perhaps that is what got him "murdered"...the abrupt ending was noted in Antiquity, and those rumors were still being spread in the 2nd century AD. My favorite paraphrase (from Ancient Greek) in the Melian dialog--after the Spartan Envoy speaks...the Athenian Envoy states, "Hope, that destroyer of men.". Not the exact words, but the exact sentiment.
"The strong do what they want and the weak endure what they must". As some Americans would say "boy, howdy"
I find it interesting both Thucydides and Xenophon were Sparta-philic . They were both aristocrats and Xenophon would work for Sparta. Thucydides is both the father / grandfather of history depending on how one views Herodotus. Great writing.
Thucydides got lucky when he was exiled. He had a gold mine. He had friends and was respected. Given the nature of Athenian politics, being ostracized was no disgrace.
I wonder if he had bodyguards with him as he traveled.
When will you be starting the summary series for this and Herodotus?
I've read Herodotus, Xenophon, Arrian & Polybius, but i started Thucydides and didn't finish it, i think i lost the book or moved house and left it behind, i need to restart that
This was really helpful as always Erica🫶🏻
🤓❤️
A SUMMARY SERIES ON THUCYDIDES 🎉🎉🎉🎉
The Thracian link to Thucydides is based on, as you rightly mentioned, his father's name Olorus. Olorus was the name of a Thracian king a generation and half earlier who was the brother-in-law of Miltiades, the Athenian who won the battle of Marathon. However, what the connection between two Oloruses was remains a mystery.
I'm watching this at 430am❤ because here in California it's very early in the morning 🌞😅
Oh my please get some sleep 😂
your eyebrows are breathtaking
💁🏻♀️
Thanks dude.
Thanks for watching :))
Pretty in Pink!
Suspect that a general or anyone who does extensive planning, tends to be more plot driven, than "character" driven. just thinking out loud.
A follow up question would be "who was xenophon"? I'd like to know that...
Gal gadot mentioned him
vile
Splendid accents and gesticulations ….. me thinks you read classics at uni ?
21k subs. ! Please, update Instantaneous Grammar A-S-A-P!!! 🙏
🫡
I have a rule: don't date ancient people.
… ?
Yeah They never turn up.
Can i fall asleep to your voice ?
No
@@MoAnInc yes
I've heard Thucydides pronounced differently.
In Greek it is with a hard -k- sound (like in ki-ll for ''cy'') and a hard -th- sound (like in th-at for ''dides''), so thu - ki - thi -thes :)
Any chance that you cover soon Quintus Curtius Rufus?