As a novelist, I absolutely agree that the narrative composition of the Bible is clearly supernatural. It is difficult enough for a single author to keep an epic narrative consistent and coherent from start to finish. It is outright impossible to do the same when you have dozens of independent authors writing over the course of hundreds or even thousands of years. And it's not merely a story. It's a story that is inseparable from archeologically confirmed history. It contains a highly complex character of God, so complex that the casual reader will see frequent contradictions in His words and actions, yet a careful reader will find everything has deep, consistent motivation. And the foreshadowing is incredible, both in the form of outright prophecy and in the more subtle typology. The Bible is the greatest work ever written.
Amen, Stagewatcher! I get more and more amazed as Jenny and I study God's word together! The spirit of atheism, however, is the spirit of denial. What does it deny? That which is evident. God's existence is evident in creation, but it is part of our rationality (we talk at length on our podcast about taking the part for the whole) that it CAN be denied. When we choose denial rather than acceptance, it becomes harder and harder to turn back to reality. This is the self-deceptive feedback loop of atheism. May God's spirit turn around the spirit of atheism that is invading our ( even evangelical) churches. Time to reset our Christian church back to the mind of Christ, with NO COMPROMISE.
@@TheChristianAtheist So if Gary tells you leprechauns caused everything, is the existence of leprechauns "evident" and you're just denying their existence? It feels like you missed the fact that the worldview rests on that implied claim "god created [the universe]" (which you then seem to use as your "evidence of god"). Reality is everything that exists. If zero detections of reality (ie evidence) indicate a god exists, then we can't just claim-into-existence the idea of a god (fallacy of bare assertion) by saying god did something. So as an atheist I'm _very much_ basing my beliefs on reality. A reality where we find no reasonable evidence of any gods. Honestly I'm a little confused if you're the speaker in the video, since that person said, _""I do agree that there is no turn to God that is purely intellectual there's just there's not the the evidence is not going to convince you one way or the other."_
After the last supper, Jesus looked into Judas' eyes and said, "One of you will betray me." Why is Judas' death described in 2 different ways in the Bible? Isn't this a huge contradiction?
I truly appreciated it when John and Sean admitted that their faith does not come easily to them. I’ve struggled in my faith throughout my Christian walk, always so grateful for God’s compassion and patience. I would love a part 2 video where John explains his journey from progressive to conservative Christianity!
My journey has been very similar to Dr. John Wise's. I was brought up Christian (or nominal Christian, as I would call it), became an atheist, and then something happened that led me to become a born-again Christian. To this day, I believe it was the Father who drew me to Christ. I believe God used my journey to show me how ignorant both nominal Christians and atheists can be, without even knowing it. To access the things of God, He has to initiate it. Because of this, verses like Matthew 11:25-"At that time Jesus answered and said, 'I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes'"-mean so much to me. ALL GLORY GOES TO GOD!!!!
Dear Sean McDowell, Thank you so much for this facinating podcast with Dr. John Wise. I do hope you'll have him on a second time as I think it would be very interesting to hear about him going from a progressive Christianity to a more conservative perspective.
I too struggle with my faith. I have a materialist operating system; however, I've realized that Christianity provides the most reliable description of our social world. Migration from non-Christian cultures to Christian based cultures is one proof of the faith to me. We're seeing a slew of public intellectual atheists also indicate that they see the need of Christian ethics in culture. We want the benefits of God without the commitment part. This is our natural fall state. Humans appear to flourish best when bounded by Christian social and moral ethic.
Faith itself is a sort of struggle and I think everyone holds to what they believe, in some meaningful measure, by faith❤ What your eyes see, today, dimly, by faith, they will ultimately see for themselves clearly.
Reading and studying and getting deep into the Bible will obliterate any doubts. I recommend Dr Chuck Misslers "Learn the Bible in 24 hours" here in RUclips to get started (combines science and faith). Also John Lennox has great videos in RUclips that combine the science and faith. Christianity and science aren't incompatible like many think but science is catching up to what the Bible told us long ago.
@@gingrai00In the Bible it says "There is a way that seems right to man, But its end is the way of death." The Bible also talks a lot about how human heart is deceitful and can't be trusted. "Follow your heart." is exactly what satan wants us to do because our hearts will lead us away from God almighty and to worship ourselves and our flesh. So everyone shouldn't believe what they believe but believe what the Bible tells us to believe and pray from God discernment and understanding. Anything that contradicts the Bible is untrue because God's word is the ultimate Truth.
You're on a great path, Steve! Keep following it. I was there for many years before God began to break through my "materialist operating system," and showing me that THIS too I had taken on faith much more than reason and evidence. Our Lord's richest blessings on you!
I found this both fascinating and close to home. In my discussions with people on both sides of faith/non-faith it has been clear that you can rarely if ever argue someone into a position of belief. Ultimately a person ends up just taking a position and structuring their beliefs around it. How they see everything in life is interpreted through the lens of that belief system. Thus two people can look at the same evidence and interpret it in totally opposite ways because their belief systems are different. Also most people will not abandon or alter their belief system until they are brought to some sort of crisis in their life. Our son also went from a position of Christianity to atheism through his study of philosophy in college at a Christian college. We certainly still love him, but we also hope that he continues the journey of questioning and evaluating everything in life just as Dr. Wise did. I agree with Dr. Wise's statement, the evidence for Christianity is overwhelming and I hope my son will see that in his journey of discovery.
You clearly have not the faintest idea that faith and belief are *Exact_Opposites*, and that faith is a subtle psychological skill while belief is a form of stupefied passive dreaming, neither having anything to do with the god fantasy IT It is perfectly possible to find the way or method brought by jesus Christ to be useful and be an atheist. However it is not possible to discover of what the way of Christ consisted or what he prescribed for what, and you have no idea , have you? Why confuse the method of Christ with all that goddist primitive savage fcuk -the-commandments anthropomorphic or Like-us_ian idolatry, or what I call god as a tedybear, comfort blanket or substitute tit Identification is just another form of dreaming and identifying with some(what can only be) imaginary dead man is dreaming in spades doubled. There is nothing inherently objectionable about the*Idea* of god, which is as essential as it is subtle but tit is highly objectionable to turn that subtle and difficult to understand*Idea* into some sort of primitive savage Like-us_ian image idol or fetish cum teddybear cum substitute tit, which is dragging a very high idea down into an anthropomorphic, like-us-ian gutter
First, belief isn’t a choice you get to freely make. Second, good evidence can only lead to a single conclusion. If you view evidence based solely upon your belief system that’s being biased so you try and make evidence fit your belief system and not letting the evidence shape your belief system. It’s not the fault of the evidence but a fault of the individual.
Please do a follow-up interview on Dr. Wise's transition from progressive to traditional Christian views and the topics affected! That would be quite interesting to listen to.
1hr.7:min. "I can't explain it...but I was able to flip the switch and go back to Christianity. It was something supernatural..." That is what the Bible calls the grace of God, drawing us by the Holy Spirit, resulting in the New Birth. God is so good and kind. Thanks for sharing this testimony. It gives me hope for my unsaved family members.
In the same way that John lost his faith somewhere in Bible school, I gained my faith and lost it in an independent fundamental church It was extremely helpful to see people so committed to God, but eventually I began to see a rigidity in fundamentalism that would not be shaken by evidence. Like John, I was persuaded, and now have a tremendous faith based on intellectual reasoning and evidence. The hard part for me now is to let go of reason and follow God with my heart… As I believe that is where true freedom lies!
This was great! Thanks so much! I would love to hear a follow-up on his journey towards a more conservative faith. I have also taken that journey recently and am curious about others' thoughtful explanations.
To "JOHN -finally-WISE" ... CONGRATULATIONS ❤🎉 good description of the 'wandering'... Heartful Thanks I wrote 'wandering' at 25th minute ... Didn't expect it to turn out that true!😅
@@ronaldlindeman6136 Keep searching, Ronald. It took me 25 years, but looking back it was never God who left me, but always me failing to SEE Him. A verse that haunted me throughout my atheism was Hebrews 11:6: "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." As an atheist I always told the Christians who tried to witness to me that it was easy for me to believe that "he rewards those who seek him," (as this is inherent to the very NOTION of God in the Western tradition) but that I couldn't believe that he exists. Being again able to "believe that he exists" took a great deal of intellectual re-learning, of letting go of things I valued deeply (academic credibility, peer-respect, fear of being judged foolish, etc.), and of honest self-assessment and recognition of my own self-deceptive practices. I will pray for you as God brings you to mind. I DO know (and there is precious little I would claim as knowledge) that Jesus promises to open the door to those who ask, seek, and knock. His promise, not mine.
As an agnostic, I enjoyed hearing this perspective. Thanks for sharing John! One thing I am still a little bit confused about is John's attitude towards agnostics. Are they "spineless cowards?" Later he talks about the value of the Socratic method and how it is good to admit that we don't have all the answers. Like, what? Not having all the answers does not make you a spineless coward, it just means you have the humility to admit that you don't know everything. Also, did he really think that his military father who taught him his ethics was a spineless coward?
Thanks for the opportunity to clarify, PiRobot! Agnosticism is the only impregnable intellectual position on this topic. It cannot be proven wrong because it does not take a position on the issue. No ... acknowledging your ignorance on any topic does not make you a spineless coward, but rather an honest human being. But THIS issue is not just like any other issue, for YOUR WHOLE WORLD HANGS on your decision. The central human question is, how shall I ACT in this world? All actions flow from faith, believing in a particular reality. When you come to a rope-suspension bridge over a deep canyon, you must make a faith-decision - to go forward, or to retreat. It does no good to stand at the edge and rely on - rest in - what you do not know. Some decisions can be safely deferred, and it is often rational to wait for more information before trusting oneself to the bridge. However, when the waiting becomes a refusal to act in the face of evidence, and in pursuit of truth and value, it becomes cowardice and intellectual laziness. I crossed that bridge twice in my life, once to leave God’s country behind, and once more to return to it. In both cases, I spent quite a bit of time on the edge, wondering about the crossing. Ultimately, I had to make a choice and move forward.
I would still at some level classify myself with the qualifier "agnostic," that is, as not claiming knowledge (certainty) of God's existence. This is why we call our religious commitments "faith," not knowledge. The logic of theism begins with agnosticism, an acknowledgment that we are fundamentally limited, finite creatures confronting a vast field of unknowing. As Socrates teaches, THIS is the starting-place for knowledge. Like science, we start with what is evident, apply reason and logic and see where that conclusion takes us. When we've done this, we check the empirical results. This is how faith always works. As a theist, a believer in God I ASSERT that He exists. I believe it, which means I ACT on it. The reason I carp so heavily on the faith issue with atheists is that they want to have it both ways. They want to assert that God does not exist, and that it is irrational to act as though He does, but they don't want to be saddled with the FACT that this is a faith-position, just as much as theism. Then, when pressed, they back off to agnosticism (which, to be fair, is their right as much as it is mine to admit their ignorance), so as not to have to admit atheism as a faith position. It is a flat out contradiction, but true to their Hegelian roots, they are unphased and even convince themselves (bad faith) that they can have it both ways. So ... "spineless coward." Live what you believe and follow its logic to its conclusion.
I pray, sometimes in tears, that my father was not a "spineless coward" on this issue, but that at some time He decided to accept Christ, but I honestly don't know. He was no coward in most other ways. I deeply respected him, but he was not perfect. Nor am I, believe you me.
@@TheChristianAtheist Thanks for the clarification! You mention that agnosticism cannot be proven wrong because it does not take a position on the issue. That is a fair critique. Positions should be falsifiable. For myself (can't speak for other agnostics), I at least hope that my views are sufficiently falsifiable. When I say that I don't know whether God exists, I am not saying that it is impossible for anyone to know, but simply that I am unqualified to sufficiently evaluate some of the arguments. I think there are some arguments for God's existence which I have looked at enough to know that they do not convince me (Deductive moral/ethical arguments, contingency arguments, cosmological arguments). There are other arguments which I have found I just do not have training in the relevant field to know whether they are good arguments or not. Fine-tuning of the physical constants is one where I feel like I would need to be a cosmologist with high levels of training in physics. On Christianity specifically, there is a historical question of whether Jesus rose from the dead, but I am simply not a historian, so I have not sufficiently studied the New Testament documents. Also, I find problematic passages in the Bible, so I'm not sure that I personally would take the Bible as an authority. I have thought of some "Gideon's fleece" type scenarios in my mind that would prove the existence of a very particular God. With the Gideon's fleece scenarios, I am definitely not expecting God to fulfill them because God would not be a genie who bends to our will, but just to say that they would falsify atheism for me. There is definitely a lot of debate about what faith means and whether atheists have faith too. I do think that atheists could potentially have some ground to say that as the negative position, they do not have to defend a claim as much as theists, HOWEVER, this "burden of proof" type of thinking only works if it were true that there was NO evidence for God. I do not think that is true. I think there is some potential indications of God, but also some evidence against particular views of God.
@@TheChristianAtheist One thing this video did get me thinking about is as you said in this comment that "the central human question is, how shall I ACT in this world?" That is one of the questions I am trying to answer for myself. Also, how would I act differently if I either believed there was a God or believed there was no God. I don't know if it would make much of a difference. The biggest change in behavior would be whether I actively taught people about God or not. Another question I have pondered is whether to sort of "pretend" that God exists and to teach other people about God even when I myself am not confident. I'm not sure because it feels almost deceptive that I would be teaching others about God without having much confidence. For instance, I am studying to be a teacher and will have to decide whether to work at a Christian school or a public school, so this is a real decision for me.
19:00 The Magician's Nephew reference is a great analogy- An agnostic atheist would jump into a pool to live in the "atheist world" with an awareness that there are other worlds which they might also live in given an opportunity; but at the moment, the atheist world is the one that makes the most sense. If someone were to reach out from another world and provide sufficient evidence that there is a "theist world" where God does exist in a way that makes sense, they can return to the wood between the worlds and choose to jump into that pool. People are free to live according to their convictions and should be willing to make a change when their worldview is challenged in a positive way.
That was the most beautiful conversion story i've ever heard. God bless you, John Wise, your wife, your family, this video, Sean's channel and everyone watching.
This was wonderful in so many ways. It took me about 25 years to find my way back to God too and He also placed someone in my life at the right time.I think having doubts is part of our fallen nature and I wish I had the 'simple' faith of some. However, like John my road is one way. I'm not going anywhere now.
@LindeeLove the way I met Jesus, I confessed all my sins to as far back as I could remember, then I said a prayer of sorts, "please forgive me I want to know if your real?" All at once a warmth filled my body, a love from God to intense to explain in words, a joy came into my heart, I was filled with the Holy Spirit, the world once looked flat in color, everything turned into bright bold colors. Jesus showed himself to me, I was born again. It was the most amazing experience of my life.
I have to say, I don't think this guy was ever a true born again Christian before his "deconversion". That's why almost nothing changed when he became an atheist. He was culturally Christian because he was raised in a Christian milieu. As all children do, he believed what he was taught. Then later in life, he came to believe it for real, and was, I assume and hope, born again.
Thanks for sharing! From my understanding, before 1950, the New Testament classes were in public schools for "moral education"! Recently, Nobel Prize economic winners have said that countries can have "prosperity" if they have a good "democratic" government and a "free market" system! Many Northern European Countries have pushed the "Free Market" idea to the extreme by "legalizing" many vice activities like sex and drugs, etc... but my question is: what roles do Biblical, Spiritual, Moral, and Religious freedom values play in modern societies? Do they make any good or bad impacts on society??
Faith doesn’t come easily to me either, brother. I also went to Bible college and fell away afterwards. I studied the physical sciences at the undergraduate and graduate levels, and felt like I had to have more faith to believe their “origin story” than that of Christianity. I eventually came back to faith, and I tell you….I wouldn’t have it any other way. I’ve been intellectually honest every step of the way and felt like I never had any choice in the matter, but the journey has been incredible.
Why do you have faith? Faith is believing something without convincing evidence. I suppose Christianity must make you feel good. Maybe that is good enough reason to go with it. Without your faith in Christianity, does the world seem too gray and sad for you?
@@LindeeLove I don’t think it has anything to do with grayness or sadness, at least not for me. I’m more interested in why we’re here….why life exists in the first place and how in the world have we survived this long. I suppose having some explanation for why we’re here feels good? But there are certainly hard things about Christianity that don’t feel good too….particularly the responsibility that comes with it.
Wrong ... faith is deciding that the evidence you have is convincing, just as you do everyday, whether Christian, atheist, or indifferent. Faith is what allows us to act.
I am a natural sceptic partly because my parent's mission organization had bad theology. I never left Christianity because nothing else made more sense, including atheism, so I just kept going but in reality I was bored beyond measure. Then I found Dr Michael Heiser and other scholars who have awakened my interest in understanding God better. I've had to completely reconstruct many interpretations I had been taught growing up that ultimately didn't stand up to scrutiny because of - logical exegetical fallacies such as reading the New Testament back into the Old Testament and therefore out of context or - anachronistic translation problems with words like 'pistis' that many times have a primary meaning of faithfulness or allegiance vs only cerebral acknowledgement or - misunderstandings in the Middle Ages and Protestant Reformation around the Israelite and ancient near east symbolism in the Israelite sacrificial system. I feel like I'm finally getting a fairly accurate understanding of the Character and Nature of YHWH after 5 or 6 years of study.
Trooper pulls over a speeding car. Turns out the driver is Werner Heisenberg, who formulated the "Uncertainty Principle." Trooper: Dr. Heisenberg, do you know how fast you were going? Heisenberg: No, but I know where I am.
THIS deserves THE CROWN for a subtle, clever and humorous response. Bravo, SpiritofHegel - whereas YOUR NAME proves it! You do realize, however, that there are only two of us who have any idea what you just said? This makes your comment all the more precious and meaningful to me, as you have the self-restraint to not worry whether or not you are being understood, or popular. You are a rare gem, and I appreciate it more than words can speak. Hegel has been my nemesis since beginning the Christian Atheist, and I have a ten-part series on the podcast explaining his work and his tragic wake of destruction. Nevertheless, I have ENORMOUS respect for him (and now for you), as few, if any, today really read and understand his work, making it all the more pernicious that his logic underlies nearly EVERYTHING in the modern mind. Touche, Spirit ...
Check out the book Law Without Authority or Limits: Kelsen’s Dilemma, by Daniel Gruber, for a mind-stretching and interesting dive into legal philosophy.
Interesting. The difference in his worldview and argument that I have not heard before is that beliefs are a choice. Many would disagree and say that you do not choose your beliefs.
This is a shot in the dark but it sounds like to me that Dallas Willard’s Ontology/Epistemology could be of great assistance here in further strengthening Dr. John Wise’s faith. I’d like to know if I am wrong so, I’d like to speak with him about that.
In our liberal democracy folk have the human right to pursue the faith of their choice and raise their family as they choice. People may even change their mind. This is wonderful
Why doesn't truth matter to believers? Sean's first question might've been, _"what evidence of a god did you find?"_ In fact later in the conversation Wise flat out says it, _"I do agree that there is no turn to God that is purely intellectual there's just there's not the the evidence is not going to convince you one way or the other."_ Well that's it exactly: we don't know a god exists, because knowing relies on evidence, and so we shouldn't believe in gods.
A common idea is that people reject God (or the idea of God) because of a lack of evidence. Christianity and Judaism make a slightly different claim - people reject God despite evidence. This is what happens in the stories of the angelic and human rebellions. Both occurred while living in God's presence; one in heaven, and one in Eden. A claim is being made here about human nature, regardless whether these events happened or not.
@@gregorytoews8316 Does it bother you that you're sort of vaguely saying we have evidence of God _while presenting exactly no evidence of a god?_ Like imagine Gary describes how in leprechaunism they have a slightly different take: that people reject leprechauns despite having evidence. Does Gary provide evidence when he says this to you? No. _Does that sound like a true idea to you?_ Are leprechauns worth believing?
@@majm9309 enough evidence for me. I don't find any other cosmology attractive. Even my capacity to invent a God is something a material cosmology says I shouldn't have. Why else do people like Daniel Dennet and Thomas Nagel say a material universe can't account for consciousness? A material cosmology would say a material brain/universe can't invent or discover a material cosmology. To do so, it would need to step outside of itself. Impossible by definition.
Sean yes. Divisions can only attract those looking for their own right thinking, but one faith is the righteousness of God, not a teligion to suit lifestyle best. That is why my Ytube videos are a battle against presuppositions, misconceptions and invested interests, but the truth is the only way to redemption.
Hearing About how this man, has accepted our Lord Jesus is admirable and a gift From God! There are many Marriages that are unequally yoked! God Bless your marriage!
He HAS! I love my Jenny with a love I never even knew was possible. Christian marriage is the BIGGEST target of the enemy, and he's almost won the battle. Pray for Christian marriage - it is the foundation for all that God has for us.
I read Charles Darwin's book, The Theory of Evolution by Mutations & Natural Selection published in 1859 and Richard Dawkins book, The Blind Watchmaker and thought that the books/Authors didn't fit into my experience of my Life. The Holy Bible/ Scriptures/ Word of God however sounded all like it fitted with the Evidence of mine and everyone 'elses lives.❤️👶🇬🇧🙏🗣️🗣️😊👁️
@@IIrandhandleIIWhat kind of logic is that? He says one book he read didn't line up with how he experienced life and the other book did. Then you say, you believe it because you want it to be true. If that's not a faith based conclusion, I don't know what is
@jamesburton9708 that is the opposite of a rational and reasonable mind, I didn't get the outcome I wanted so I tossed out the data until it fit my desired result. This is why many Christians have issues with science, I don't want evolution to be true therefore it's not. They would rather believe the earth is 6 thousand years old and believe noahs ark is a historical event, we then get folks like ken hamm and Kent hovind making money from fooling people, and especially targeting children.
THAT is true. I never denied it, even once. The Lord Jesus was made again evident to me THROUGH Jenny (hence, the title of our book, "Through the Looking Glass"), which is only to be expected. We ALL come to God through other people. "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent?" In the fullness of time (after 25 years of softening my hard heart through intellectual means) God sent Jenny to me. It is the same Bible story we encounter from start to finish. What you meant as a criticism simply reinforces God's grace. "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring the gospel of peace."
@@TheChristianAtheist absolutely, it wasn't supposed to be a criticism - a bit further in the video you expand on it but I already commented and failed to edit it later. PS Look into history and specifically eucharist.
Excellent! I wholeheartedly agree that it comes down to choice. There is enough rationale on both sides to justify belief… what will you choose? God has done the perfect job in how he has ordered the world such that, in each direction, you will have to live by faith but those who are to be justified will live by faith in the Son of God.
More importantly, Jesus said that even if a dead man returned and spoke to them, they would not believe. They have Moses and the prophets - God's word - if they refuse to hear, they have made their choice. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
THIS is the verse (and I understand its application to me) that honest believers (including a good friend at the church where I turned back to Christ again) honestly struggle with. I can only tell you my story, and I don't believe it is MY place to convince you in this case how to interpret God's word. Thanks for raising it, though. We must all "wrestle with God," and seek its meaning with the Holy Spirit dwelling within.
@@seamusomavity Best answer (the promise to which I cling): "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
44:25 "... This raft I'm on fits the evidence better, but you know what? If it doesn't fit the evidence better, I'm still going with this side"......ok, truth-seeker. 😂
That's right. This is faith ... when once you've discovered a TRUTH that captures your whole being, it becomes nearly impossible to let go of. When you've sailed on the raft and EVERYTHING confirms the raft, you are unwilling to give it up. Reason and evidence took me to the raft (and I chose it on that basis), and sailing on it (experimental testing) confirmed its truth. No one and nothing will take that from me now. That's why I say in my podcast, mirroring Job, "if he slay me, yet will I trust him." What I find amusing is that you think science is something different. You should read evolutionary biologist Eugene Koonin's book, THE LOGIC OF CHANCE. In it, Koonin makes the case that the the possibility of natural processes (chemistry and environment) producing just two of the necessary cellular machinery to begin the evolutionary processes of life is less than 1 in 10 to the power of 1016 (his calculations, not mine), yet despite the statistical impossibility, he clings to his evolutionary dogma. To get a handle on what I mean by statistical impossibility, consider that there are only 10 to the 80 elementary particles in our ENTIRE universe, and that the probability Koonin calculates is over 900 order of magnitude larger than that. Gone is the scientific pretense to inductive logic, or inference to the best explanation. If he were being logical, he would admit that the universe was intelligently designed, but NO ... at all costs, even basic logic, we must avoid that conclusion. Listen to my podcast, "Evolutionary faith." Truth above all, and at all costs. When you get to know Jesus personally and intimately, you understand that Truth, Love, Beauty, and morality are found not in abstract reasoning, but in a concrete person: the Lord Jesus Christ. He is Truth.
I think Dr. Wise plays fast and loose with the distinctions between “faith” and “confidence” which happens all the time in these discussions. Atheism isn’t “faith in nothing”. It’s a lack of belief in the claim that there is a god or gods. Speaking for myself as an Atheist I do in fact “believe” in a lot of things > meaning I “think” a lot of things are true or not. The amount of confidence I have on these various conclusions varies depending on which conclusion we are talking about. When it comes to my Atheism I’m very confident in my position as in my 57 years of life I haven’t heard any sound reasons to overcome my skepticism that unverifiable, supernatural tall tales could be true. (Dr. Wise's story does not give me much pause for thought.) Having said that I do recognize there is a limit to the extent of my knowledge and ability to understand so I could be mistaken. Let me know when Jesus finally makes his come back and I will stand corrected. Let’s not hold our breath while waiting though. 🙂
I don't understand how you can know God one day, and then say you don't know Him another day. Believing God exists is very different to meeting Him as a reality. Jesus and His sacrifice for us is the only way to KNOW God. From the day I was born from above at 14 years old, no matter how far from His ways I've wandered, I could never, ever have denied He is real. He's always with me for one. And when you meet someone in real life, you know you've met them. I can only understand this if someone is actually deciding if they believe OF God. Like, does he exist. But, if you believe IN Him through Jesus, He comes and lives with your spirit inside of you and you can never wonder if He is real again. It would be like me trying to say I don't believe that I exist. OF God, or IN God. Where is your belief? Jesus paid our debt to restore us to relationship with God again.
I believe he has an incredible, intellectual knowledge of God, but hadn't personally met God. I relate to the intellectual knowledge and dedication to God when I was a child and committed my life to this unknowable entity. But suddenly at 19, I met God, and His love overwhelmed me and changed me from the atoms out. I was truly born again. I couldn't deny God's existence any more than I could deny my beloved late parents existed. I can't prove it, but the evidence is overwhelming. The reason I have some questions about Dr. Wise's reconversion is because he talks about God as of He is a character in a philosophy who he decided to surrender to in order to get his wife, not a personal friend you would sacrifice all for.
@@briannamoniqueblog I'm not sure if that's what it means. I just know that not all people who say, "Lord, Lord," will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. God knows who we are and what our motives are. I know someone who is very intellectually knowledgeable about the Bible and is devoted to Jesus and says he has been a 100% Christian since he was a young boy. He works at a Christian organization/ministry. But he is hate-filled, never goes to church, is critical of every church he visits, is abusive to his family, is a miserable, joyless person, stirs up arguments everywhere he goes, is incredibly impatient, narcissistic at times, and can't control his temper. Is is once saved, always saved? I believe he never knew Christ.
I was a little confused about atheism being a choice vs faith, as if the evidence for both is equivalent. Materialism when dissected doesn’t seem logical. Christianity has its logic problems (why does a “sinless”animal suffer under a just God) but a designer of life seems so obvious in these modern scientific times.
Atheism is a kind of religion. It takes a lot of faith to believe that nothing created everything. And it takes a lot of faith to believe that things like love and morality come from materialism.
It absolutely is a religion, because the concept that atheism is the "default" or "neutral" worldview is in itself a belief, a belief that is quite convincingly wrong, due to the insurmountable evidence for God's existence.
It really depends on what you mean by “religion”. Atheism has no traditions. It has no all-encompassing worldview. It says nothing about how people live their lives. Religious people tend to conflate - Atheism (there is no God) - Agnosticism (I don’t know) - Secularism (No favouritism) - Naturalism (Everything is physical) - Empiricism (Only what we can see is real) - Nihilism (There is no ultimate meaning) - Epistemological relativism (There is no objective truth) - Moral relativism (There is no objective morality) This comment seems to target naturalism with an argument from incredulity (which is a fallacy). By the way, “everything came from nothing” is a waning view in cosmology and requires a very specific concept of “nothing”. Before criticizing, do some research and get a basic idea of modern theories. PBS Spacetime is a great channel, but they use a lot of jargon.
@@horridhenry9920 Non-stamp collecting is not a belief in something that may or may not exist, it is a hobby. Not a good example. There's a lot of evidence, both from what Christians call general revelation and special revelation. Look them up. You want something provable? Well, can you prove that a criminal did a crime by going back in time and bearing witness yourself? No, all you have is evidence that may prove it from the crime scene. Even if you did go back in time, what if you come back and tell people the truth of what you saw and they think you're lying? In the same way, our evidence for God is the best proof we have, but some people will still choose not to believe.
John your journey is familiar as you need reason to believe and a reason to believe, and God has always provided evidence by prophecy so that faith can be reasoned.
The phrase that came to my mind, when I listened to John's more recent conversion story was "How great Thou art"🥹. Thank you so much for this interview and YES, please please do the part 2!
Thank you for the great interview. As an atheist, I stumbled upon Christianity a few years back. I think I am in that ambivalent Narnia world described in the interview. I'm struggling with surrendering to Christ because I can't say that I love Him, and I don't want to be a hypocrite or do things because I am forced. One of the ideas I with the most is the one put forth by Dostoevsky's Ivan Karamazov in the chapter "Rebellion". Here it is in a nutshell: "Imagine that you are creating a fabric of human destiny with the object of making men happy in the end... but that it was essential and inevitable to torture to death only one tiny creature ... And to found that edifice on its unavenged tears: would you consent to be the architect on those conditions? Tell me, and tell me the truth!" I would love to hear a response to this from you Dr. McDowell or Dr. Wise.
I can see many of his writings online from after he became a Christian. but nothing from the 25 years where he was an atheist Professor of Philosophy. Could you refer me to some of his books, essays, or articles from that period? Otherwise, it's as if they didn't exist and it's all made up- and I'm sure that is not the case.
@@TheChristianAtheist Ok, I might like to look at that (not that I'll be able to understand much in a philosophy dissertation). Also, to clarify, I do believe you and I don't think anything you said is "made up" I'm more just curious about what your thought process was like early in your atheism. I hate it when people say things like "you were never truly... [whatever]" because it feels like a dismissal without serious engagement of a changed mind Were you thinking of sending by email?
@@TheChristianAtheist Sorry for questioning, I think the problem is in the phrase "atheist philosophy professor"- can mean "a philosophy professor who studies atheism" (a broad enough field in itself) or a " philosophy professor who is an atheist but whose main field of study is something else- logic, analytic philosophy, linguistic philosophy etc".
39:18 is where it gets wild. So you’re telling me that, in retrospect, you became convinced that your deconversion was a conscious decision rather than a slow, meticulous process. Then, you present an argument from incredibly demonstrating that you’ve rejected evolution. Finally, you admit that even if the evidence pointed the opposite direction, you would still be a theist. This is the difference between science and philosophy: In science, we have an epistemological framework for determining truth to extremely high degrees of accuracy. In philosophy, you have to make some assumptions to investigate their implications. This can be useful, but there’s a risk of neglecting good epistemology and just going with what “feels right”.
And in the end he was stuck in a crossroads, to follow his heart and pursue the woman he fell in love with, or remain an "agnostic" who consistently goes to and is involved in the church
Yep- that is the only way we can exercise the libertarian free will He gave us because if God made it impossible to disbelieve than we would have no free will to choose Him. And we know from Satan, knowing God exists doesn’t stop someone from rebelling and committing sin.
It was not clear to me...did Dr. Wise marry the widowed homeschool mother of 7, or another Christian woman? Also, why was Dr. Wise attending church? Did he attend with his first wife before she died?
18:00 I think the guest is saying that you can't be an agnostic atheist because the terms are mutually exclusive? In academic philosophy, the terms "agnostic" and "atheist" are not mutually exclusive. Many philosophers argue that agnosticism and atheism address different aspects of belief and knowledge. *Atheism*: Typically defined as the lack of belief in gods or divine beings. *Agnosticism*: Concerned with knowledge claims, asserting that the existence or non-existence of gods is unknown or unknowable. One can be: 1. *Agnostic atheist*: Does not believe in gods (atheism) and also believes that knowledge about gods' existence may be impossible (agnosticism). 2. *Gnostic atheist*: Believes gods do not exist and claims to know this with certainty. 3. *Agnostic theist*: Believes in gods but acknowledges uncertainty about their existence. Philosophers like: 1. *Bertrand Russell*: Self-identified as an agnostic atheist. 2. *Anthony Flew*: Advocated for agnostic atheism. 3. *Michael Martin*: Argued for agnostic atheism in his book "Atheism: A Philosophical Justification". Sources: 1. "The Oxford Handbook of Atheism" (2013) 2. "A Companion to Atheism and Philosophy" (2012) 3. "The Cambridge Companion to Atheism" (2007)
I personally think it was cowardly for atheist to cower away from 'a belief that there are no gods' to 'a lack of belief...' Theism or atheism should be your outlook or description on reality Therefore, an atheist will be someone who thinks reality is a-theon (without god[s])
@actingapostlesage I would rather someone answer honestly. The terms(atheism/agnosticism) don't matter that much. Either someone is convinced , one way or the other, or they are not sure.
@tex959 I think I agree with the honesty part. A latitude - only recently did the term atheist move from the general 'believing in no gods' to the non specific 'lack of belief' As per the honesty, I believe many (vast majority) atheists believe that there are no gods, but only hide behind 'lack of belief' and agnostism so they can avoid supporting their belief.
@@actingapostlesageQuestion for you, (just think of it as a thought experiment.) Is my name Jack? (Not my screen name, but my real name). Do you believe that my name is Jack? Do you believe that my name is not Jack?
My parents grew up in Lancaster County so I have relatives there and can say they trust in their own righteousness rather than Jesus's finished work of the cross. There's the religious spirit, tho they don't talk about Jesus they're proud they go to church and think they don't live like the world but they have pride, , materialism, even tho in the distant past they didn't own tvs or electronics and the women made their own clothes, that's not the case nowadays. That's not giving God glory, but their own flesh, "They put on the form of godliness but deny the power", which I can say that's 90% of American churches.
Whether or not you are an atheist depends on how you answer the question "Do you believe in a god or gods?" If you don't answer that question "yes I do" then that means you aren't a believer and therefore are an atheist.
That's right, and if you were born a male, you can just "choose" to be a female, and "presto change-o" you're a female! It is wonderful in the modern world to change any definition/reality you want to to make it suit your purposes. I have a whole series on what is an atheist in the Christian Atheist podcast.
Why get hung up on definitions. Even a child can understand difference between atheist and agnostic. Made perfect sense to me even in high school when I didn’t care about philosophy. Why even debate?
@@TheChristianAtheist Devil is truly a cunning deceiver. Been a Christian 40 years. I would not believe it until I was flipped twice in one night recently. Was reading 1John 3:1 see what great love the Father has for us. My thought said God is not love. Just like that my faith was gone. I actually felt close to God at that time. I ask what about all these passage on love. Was told they are all lies. So God is evil? Answer was yes. So God will abandon us at the end? Yes. How cruel? Yes. I didn't want to believe it, but had no choice. The voice was too powerful. So God never intend to save man. Who are we to God. But how can faith go so fast. I wondered why God let this happen to me. Now I can't even stand reading the Bible because it was just a lie. I was going to pretend this never happened, and just keep reading the Bible and go to church until I sort this out. The coming months or even years would be difficult. I said no, can't do this. I have to resolve this out right now. But how can you pray to a God that don't care? At the dark moment, a voice said who told you God is not love? Instantly, I knew the answer. Before I can even formulate word devil, it was gone. I flipped again. Didn't even get the satisfaction of saying is the devil, and the devil is a liar. Within 20 minutes, I was back to faith again. Left me puzzled. Some time later, I was talking to a young man at church. He seemed troubled, and said he could not believe in Jesus. I said, say with all your might you want righteousness, you reject sin, reject evil, you reject the devil. I can see his demeanor change. He start to acknowledge Christ. The devil is a roaring lion.
From his podcast: _As an atheist, I embraced evolutionary theory, its cosmogony and cosmology hook, line and sinker. As a re-converted Christian, I began the Christian Atheist as a theistic evolutionist. This year, after long and serious study, I abandon my faith in evolutionary biology and all its Hegelian ideological tendrils that have infected the rational scientific worldview in the past two centuries. Let the evidence speak, and let the people of God listen to what He says, and obey._ Nobody, at least nobody serious, has "faith" in evolutionary biology. Reading this stuff, I can see yet another person with some issues, probably needs a therapist, not platformed on RUclips. Sean, you owe it to people not to platform them when they're not well. Evolution is a solid fact of science. It underpins all of biology and the life sciences. To not believe evolution is to admit you've got problems with accepting reality, it's like denying that the sun is at the center of a heliocentric solar system and that instead, the moon and sun are of equal size and orbit a flat earth. All that said, I guess I'm happy to see you platform all these types of people who believe nonsense as you're helping the younger generation deconstruct by the boatloads. Anyone that doesn't realize evolution is a solid fact is not playing the game fairly (or has a mental problem with reality). Also, the thumb nail is dumb. Nobody can have their "atheism" implode. It's impossible. Atheism isn't a belief, it cannot implode or anything else, it's a lack of belief in a god or gods. What happened isn't anything to do with this atheism, which was a stated lack of belief in god or gods, but rather, he embraced the idea of belief (again). You might better say his theism exploded and he couldn't deny it or something like that.
Hello, my friend. I just have a question about the topic you brought up, or rather, the assertion you made. Regarding evolutionism, it is not a truth or dogma of science; it faces many challenges in being supported and is quite fragile when it comes to answering the most basic questions. I have a question unrelated to this topic: Are you a creationist?
If it isn't Michael, the most annoying pastor of the atheist religion I ever saw online. And that's saying something. Still believing in the power of your own arrogance and ignorance? It's funny how people who claim to be atheists spend all this time trying to mainly convince themselves. Because, believe me - nobody else is convinced by your annoying presence or comments. (But like every good atheist on RUclips you're just "following the facts" and those facts seem to turn every convinced follower of the atheist religion into an utter nuisance it seems). I think it is you who needs the therapy. If it isn't because of your delusional atheism then certainly for being absolutely obnoxious and toxic. Good luck! And, no, I won't pray for you because it would be a waste of time. One thing is for certain - if you think Sean is driving people to deconstruct, you're the one driving people away from atheism. Everyone reading more than one comment from you would rather be Buddhist, Hindu, Animist or Christian than consider becoming a member of your cult.
@@seb98885 Evolution is a solid fact of science. There's literally no debate except among science deniers, on par with flat earthers. There is no such thing as "evolutionism" lol, I mean, maybe there is in some ignorant minds, but evolution is an observable, testable, well established fact. It's the foundation of modern biology, medicine, and life sciences. It's not fragile at all, your assertion is silly. Evolution is so solid because it's been attacked more than anything in science, and it is always, in the end, proven to be the reality we live in on this earth. It's a fact, as certain as the heliocentric solar system. To deny evolution is to pretend the earth is flat and the sun orbits the earth, it's literally that dumb. Or worse.
Evolutionary biologist Richard Lewontin: “We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfil many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.” Lewontin, R., Billions and billions of demons, The New York Review, January 9, 1997, p. 31.
Atheist paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould: “Our ways of learning about the world are strongly influenced by the social preconceptions and biased modes of thinking that each scientist must apply to any problem. The stereotype of a fully rational and objective ‘scientific method’, with individual scientists as logical (and interchangeable) robots is self-serving mythology.” Gould, S.J., Natural History 103(2):14, 1994.
The fact that you have a PhD doesn’t mean you are smart. “The fool says there is no God” I am currently on a boat cruise and I see the body of water around me and the power that you could feel pulsating in the water. To say that this immense force just popped into existence from nothing is nonsensical. Even magic needs a magician. I honestly believe that atheists don’t want there to be a God so they will fight tooth and nail to defend this belief system.
_‘The fool says there is no God’_ That's not smart at all, but childish and cheap: ‘If you believe something different from me, you're stupid. _To say that this immense force just popped into existence_ _from nothing is nonsensical._ Right, and no atheist claims such nonsense. You're building a straw man here. _I honestly believe that atheists don't want there to be a God_ _so they will fight tooth and nail to defend this belief system._ For atheists, belief is not a question of will and atheism is not a belief system. You're building another straw man here.
“In speaking of the fear of religion, I don’t mean to refer to the entirely reasonable hostility toward certain established religions and religious institutions, in virtue of their objectionable moral doctrines, social policies, and political influence. Nor am I referring to the association of many religious beliefs with superstition and the acceptance of evident empirical falsehoods. I am talking about something much deeper-namely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.”(”The Last Word” by Thomas Nagel, Oxford University Press: 1997)” ― Thomas Nagel
@@joannquaid6037 _"You are right atheists do not want there to be a God."_ Atheists, but also theists, justify this by characterising and describing the actions of certain gods in mythical texts, in which the gods are portrayed as brutal, egocentric rulers of violence. Nobody can want such gods. _"They are their own god."_ These are your malicious words, not those of atheists. If theists have the right to make up their own gods, why shouldn't others have the same right to decide what or who they consider divine? The justifications would be equally poor in both cases.
Atheist are an easy target that loving Christian's like to rebuke. But many people who reject the Bible also conclude that the universe and life within appear to have been created and designed. They just don't accept that Yahweh-a jealous and vindictive storm God-is the creator of it.
Infinite Awareness Writes Spiritual Letters and Only Infinite Awareness can Discern Them! The purpose of any Spiritual Letter is to bring us to the place where we are the recipients of the Revelation of Spiritual, Infinite Awareness! He who seeks to keep his(mortal) life shall lose it.....!! Peace Be Unto You
Constantly thinking and trying to figure it all out is sometimes a curse. But sometimes a blessing. I do believe in the Lord and the truth but that doesn't stop my mind from trying to always figure it all out, which is impossible. I guess that's where faith has to happen.
Romans 8:9 (NLT) But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.) I did not hear discussion about God revealing himself directly to Dr. Wise. Since we cannot be saved without the Spirit living in us, I'm surprised such a crucial point was not discussed. To have the certainty of reality of Jesus as truly the living God worth dying for, it seems only possible by coming to believe, and then most importantly, Jesus personally revealing himself and coming in and making his home in your heart. Through personally knowing him is where the faith comes from that cannot be shaken. Dr. Wise, where is that in your life? Did it happen and you didn't talk about it, or has it not happened yet? Consider the contrast with Becket Cook's testimony, clearly God revealed himself to Becket. But every life is different, the true test that the Bible gives us to know a person is saved is by fruit of a transformed life over time. This is clearly seen in Dr. Wise life. So maybe the Spirit lives in you, Dr. Wise, but you don't know it by direct experience?
Currently at University of Arizona, Global Campus, formerly at East Stroudsburg University of PA. Also taught at several different online universities. Did my PhD and MA at University of CA, Irvine, and most of an MA at West Chester University of PA before transferring to the PhD program at UCI.
@@TheChristianAtheist I have not been able to find any of your writings from the 25 years you were an atheist. Do you have any articles from this period, or did you specialize in other fields?
If you ever find yourself questioning your existence or you want answers about what your purpose is in this life,The Q u r a n is the only book in the world which will give you the true answers to these questions.
Our worldview is volitional at end of day, not rational. And each one of us has to overcome our natural desires and "leaning" on our own ability to understand reality. John 3 starts to touch on this after verse 16.
I like that turn of phrase, designbuild! "Volitional, not rational." Our will, of course, is conditioned by our rationality, and will seldom, if ever, DEFY our rationality, but rationality cannot, by itself, DETERMINE the will. If our rationality can explain a set of facts in only two ways, we will have to choose one and see where it takes us.
@@TheChristianAtheist Thanks. And while true about rationality, it -to me- can be a loaded term (while people picture in mind all the positives of the concept). Criminology and fraud investigation assumes reasoning and rationale as part of the equation to find and convict someone, if fit to stand trial. This assumes a reason behind the volition, as I believe you are stating, regardless of how unacceptable their choice to others.
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"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everthing else." ~ C.S. Lewis
Thank you, Chris!
As a novelist, I absolutely agree that the narrative composition of the Bible is clearly supernatural. It is difficult enough for a single author to keep an epic narrative consistent and coherent from start to finish. It is outright impossible to do the same when you have dozens of independent authors writing over the course of hundreds or even thousands of years. And it's not merely a story. It's a story that is inseparable from archeologically confirmed history. It contains a highly complex character of God, so complex that the casual reader will see frequent contradictions in His words and actions, yet a careful reader will find everything has deep, consistent motivation. And the foreshadowing is incredible, both in the form of outright prophecy and in the more subtle typology. The Bible is the greatest work ever written.
Thank u for sharing.
Amen, Stagewatcher! I get more and more amazed as Jenny and I study God's word together! The spirit of atheism, however, is the spirit of denial. What does it deny? That which is evident. God's existence is evident in creation, but it is part of our rationality (we talk at length on our podcast about taking the part for the whole) that it CAN be denied. When we choose denial rather than acceptance, it becomes harder and harder to turn back to reality. This is the self-deceptive feedback loop of atheism. May God's spirit turn around the spirit of atheism that is invading our ( even evangelical) churches. Time to reset our Christian church back to the mind of Christ, with NO COMPROMISE.
@@TheChristianAtheist Amen!
@@TheChristianAtheist So if Gary tells you leprechauns caused everything, is the existence of leprechauns "evident" and you're just denying their existence? It feels like you missed the fact that the worldview rests on that implied claim "god created [the universe]" (which you then seem to use as your "evidence of god").
Reality is everything that exists. If zero detections of reality (ie evidence) indicate a god exists, then we can't just claim-into-existence the idea of a god (fallacy of bare assertion) by saying god did something.
So as an atheist I'm _very much_ basing my beliefs on reality.
A reality where we find no reasonable evidence of any gods. Honestly I'm a little confused if you're the speaker in the video, since that person said, _""I do agree that there is no turn to God that is purely intellectual there's just there's not the the evidence is not going to convince you one way or the other."_
After the last supper, Jesus looked into Judas' eyes and said, "One of you will betray me." Why is Judas' death described in 2 different ways in the Bible? Isn't this a huge contradiction?
I truly appreciated it when John and Sean admitted that their faith does not come easily to them. I’ve struggled in my faith throughout my Christian walk, always so grateful for God’s compassion and patience. I would love a part 2 video where John explains his journey from progressive to conservative Christianity!
My journey has been very similar to Dr. John Wise's. I was brought up Christian (or nominal Christian, as I would call it), became an atheist, and then something happened that led me to become a born-again Christian. To this day, I believe it was the Father who drew me to Christ. I believe God used my journey to show me how ignorant both nominal Christians and atheists can be, without even knowing it. To access the things of God, He has to initiate it. Because of this, verses like Matthew 11:25-"At that time Jesus answered and said, 'I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes'"-mean so much to me. ALL GLORY GOES TO GOD!!!!
Dear Sean McDowell, Thank you so much for this facinating podcast with Dr. John Wise. I do hope you'll have him on a second time as I think it would be very interesting to hear about him going from a progressive Christianity to a more conservative perspective.
I too struggle with my faith. I have a materialist operating system; however, I've realized that Christianity provides the most reliable description of our social world. Migration from non-Christian cultures to Christian based cultures is one proof of the faith to me. We're seeing a slew of public intellectual atheists also indicate that they see the need of Christian ethics in culture. We want the benefits of God without the commitment part. This is our natural fall state. Humans appear to flourish best when bounded by Christian social and moral ethic.
Faith itself is a sort of struggle and I think everyone holds to what they believe, in some meaningful measure, by faith❤
What your eyes see, today, dimly, by faith, they will ultimately see for themselves clearly.
Reading and studying and getting deep into the Bible will obliterate any doubts. I recommend Dr Chuck Misslers "Learn the Bible in 24 hours" here in RUclips to get started (combines science and faith). Also John Lennox has great videos in RUclips that combine the science and faith. Christianity and science aren't incompatible like many think but science is catching up to what the Bible told us long ago.
@@gingrai00In the Bible it says "There is a way that seems right to man, But its end is the way of death." The Bible also talks a lot about how human heart is deceitful and can't be trusted. "Follow your heart." is exactly what satan wants us to do because our hearts will lead us away from God almighty and to worship ourselves and our flesh. So everyone shouldn't believe what they believe but believe what the Bible tells us to believe and pray from God discernment and understanding. Anything that contradicts the Bible is untrue because God's word is the ultimate Truth.
You're on a great path, Steve! Keep following it. I was there for many years before God began to break through my "materialist operating system," and showing me that THIS too I had taken on faith much more than reason and evidence. Our Lord's richest blessings on you!
I found this both fascinating and close to home. In my discussions with people on both sides of faith/non-faith it has been clear that you can rarely if ever argue someone into a position of belief. Ultimately a person ends up just taking a position and structuring their beliefs around it. How they see everything in life is interpreted through the lens of that belief system. Thus two people can look at the same evidence and interpret it in totally opposite ways because their belief systems are different. Also most people will not abandon or alter their belief system until they are brought to some sort of crisis in their life.
Our son also went from a position of Christianity to atheism through his study of philosophy in college at a Christian college. We certainly still love him, but we also hope that he continues the journey of questioning and evaluating everything in life just as Dr. Wise did. I agree with Dr. Wise's statement, the evidence for Christianity is overwhelming and I hope my son will see that in his journey of discovery.
Have him contact us! We would love to chat!
You clearly have not the faintest idea that faith and belief are *Exact_Opposites*, and that faith is a subtle psychological skill while belief is a form of stupefied passive dreaming, neither having anything to do with the god fantasy
IT It is perfectly possible to find the way or method brought by jesus Christ to be useful and be an atheist. However it is not possible to discover of what the way of Christ consisted or what he prescribed for what, and you have no idea , have you?
Why confuse the method of Christ with all that goddist primitive savage fcuk -the-commandments anthropomorphic or Like-us_ian idolatry, or what I call god as a tedybear, comfort blanket or substitute tit
Identification is just another form of dreaming and identifying with some(what can only be) imaginary dead man is dreaming in spades doubled.
There is nothing inherently objectionable about the*Idea* of god, which is as essential as it is subtle but tit is highly objectionable to turn that subtle and difficult to understand*Idea* into some sort of primitive savage Like-us_ian image idol or fetish cum teddybear cum substitute tit, which is dragging a very high idea down into an anthropomorphic, like-us-ian gutter
First, belief isn’t a choice you get to freely make. Second, good evidence can only lead to a single conclusion. If you view evidence based solely upon your belief system that’s being biased so you try and make evidence fit your belief system and not letting the evidence shape your belief system. It’s not the fault of the evidence but a fault of the individual.
Please do a follow-up interview on Dr. Wise's transition from progressive to traditional Christian views and the topics affected! That would be quite interesting to listen to.
Once again, so thankful for your podcasts. This one is so helpful as I walk through a period of questioning.
This was a great discussion. I'd love you to host the podcast of moving from a progressive Christian to a conservative Christian.
What a great episode! God bless you Sean and John!! 🙏🙌🫶👏
1hr.7:min.
"I can't explain it...but I was able to flip the switch and go back to Christianity. It was something supernatural..."
That is what the Bible calls the grace of God, drawing us by the Holy Spirit, resulting in the New Birth. God is so good and kind.
Thanks for sharing this testimony. It gives me hope for my unsaved family members.
In the same way that John lost his faith somewhere in Bible school, I gained my faith and lost it in an independent fundamental church
It was extremely helpful to see people so committed to God, but eventually I began to see a rigidity in fundamentalism that would not be shaken by evidence.
Like John, I was persuaded, and now have a tremendous faith based on intellectual reasoning and evidence. The hard part for me now is to let go of reason and follow God with my heart… As I believe that is where true freedom lies!
Yes. Would LOVE a follow-up on how one goes from progressive to conservative Christianity. Fascinating. And hopeful for so many these days!
Yes! Part 2 with how John went from progressive to conservative Christianity. Fascinating interview. Thank you.
This was great! Thanks so much! I would love to hear a follow-up on his journey towards a more conservative faith. I have also taken that journey recently and am curious about others' thoughtful explanations.
I would love to hear more about Dr. John Wise's journey from progressive to conservative Christianity.
FAscinating conversation. Lot's to think about. Thank you guys.
To "JOHN -finally-WISE" ... CONGRATULATIONS ❤🎉 good description of the 'wandering'... Heartful Thanks
I wrote 'wandering' at 25th minute ... Didn't expect it to turn out that true!😅
Thanks Sean for making the interview, Thanks John for telling us your spiritual/philosophical journey. Praise be to God!
I am like Thomas too 😪 it’s a rough road, but it led me back to Christ. Keep searching for the truth, you will find it ❤
But Jesus was kind and patient with Thomas even though he was filled with doubt. To have doubt is natural and very human but Jesus loved us anyway ❤
But I searched for 'the truth' and found that Christianity was not true.
@@ronaldlindeman6136 Keep searching, Ronald. It took me 25 years, but looking back it was never God who left me, but always me failing to SEE Him. A verse that haunted me throughout my atheism was Hebrews 11:6: "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." As an atheist I always told the Christians who tried to witness to me that it was easy for me to believe that "he rewards those who seek him," (as this is inherent to the very NOTION of God in the Western tradition) but that I couldn't believe that he exists. Being again able to "believe that he exists" took a great deal of intellectual re-learning, of letting go of things I valued deeply (academic credibility, peer-respect, fear of being judged foolish, etc.), and of honest self-assessment and recognition of my own self-deceptive practices.
I will pray for you as God brings you to mind. I DO know (and there is precious little I would claim as knowledge) that Jesus promises to open the door to those who ask, seek, and knock.
His promise, not mine.
Please have a part 2
Thank you for this fascinating conversation! Prof. Wise is an excellent teacher.
100% I want depth!!! Thank you!!
As an agnostic, I enjoyed hearing this perspective. Thanks for sharing John!
One thing I am still a little bit confused about is John's attitude towards agnostics. Are they "spineless cowards?" Later he talks about the value of the Socratic method and how it is good to admit that we don't have all the answers. Like, what? Not having all the answers does not make you a spineless coward, it just means you have the humility to admit that you don't know everything. Also, did he really think that his military father who taught him his ethics was a spineless coward?
Thanks for the opportunity to clarify, PiRobot! Agnosticism is the only impregnable intellectual position on this topic. It cannot be proven wrong because it does not take a position on the issue. No ... acknowledging your ignorance on any topic does not make you a spineless coward, but rather an honest human being. But THIS issue is not just like any other issue, for YOUR WHOLE WORLD HANGS on your decision. The central human question is, how shall I ACT in this world? All actions flow from faith, believing in a particular reality. When you come to a rope-suspension bridge over a deep canyon, you must make a faith-decision - to go forward, or to retreat. It does no good to stand at the edge and rely on - rest in - what you do not know. Some decisions can be safely deferred, and it is often rational to wait for more information before trusting oneself to the bridge. However, when the waiting becomes a refusal to act in the face of evidence, and in pursuit of truth and value, it becomes cowardice and intellectual laziness. I crossed that bridge twice in my life, once to leave God’s country behind, and once more to return to it. In both cases, I spent quite a bit of time on the edge, wondering about the crossing. Ultimately, I had to make a choice and move forward.
I would still at some level classify myself with the qualifier "agnostic," that is, as not claiming knowledge (certainty) of God's existence. This is why we call our religious commitments "faith," not knowledge. The logic of theism begins with agnosticism, an acknowledgment that we are fundamentally limited, finite creatures confronting a vast field of unknowing. As Socrates teaches, THIS is the starting-place for knowledge. Like science, we start with what is evident, apply reason and logic and see where that conclusion takes us. When we've done this, we check the empirical results. This is how faith always works. As a theist, a believer in God I ASSERT that He exists. I believe it, which means I ACT on it. The reason I carp so heavily on the faith issue with atheists is that they want to have it both ways. They want to assert that God does not exist, and that it is irrational to act as though He does, but they don't want to be saddled with the FACT that this is a faith-position, just as much as theism. Then, when pressed, they back off to agnosticism (which, to be fair, is their right as much as it is mine to admit their ignorance), so as not to have to admit atheism as a faith position. It is a flat out contradiction, but true to their Hegelian roots, they are unphased and even convince themselves (bad faith) that they can have it both ways. So ... "spineless coward." Live what you believe and follow its logic to its conclusion.
I pray, sometimes in tears, that my father was not a "spineless coward" on this issue, but that at some time He decided to accept Christ, but I honestly don't know. He was no coward in most other ways. I deeply respected him, but he was not perfect. Nor am I, believe you me.
@@TheChristianAtheist Thanks for the clarification! You mention that agnosticism cannot be proven wrong because it does not take a position on the issue. That is a fair critique. Positions should be falsifiable. For myself (can't speak for other agnostics), I at least hope that my views are sufficiently falsifiable. When I say that I don't know whether God exists, I am not saying that it is impossible for anyone to know, but simply that I am unqualified to sufficiently evaluate some of the arguments.
I think there are some arguments for God's existence which I have looked at enough to know that they do not convince me (Deductive moral/ethical arguments, contingency arguments, cosmological arguments). There are other arguments which I have found I just do not have training in the relevant field to know whether they are good arguments or not. Fine-tuning of the physical constants is one where I feel like I would need to be a cosmologist with high levels of training in physics. On Christianity specifically, there is a historical question of whether Jesus rose from the dead, but I am simply not a historian, so I have not sufficiently studied the New Testament documents. Also, I find problematic passages in the Bible, so I'm not sure that I personally would take the Bible as an authority. I have thought of some "Gideon's fleece" type scenarios in my mind that would prove the existence of a very particular God. With the Gideon's fleece scenarios, I am definitely not expecting God to fulfill them because God would not be a genie who bends to our will, but just to say that they would falsify atheism for me.
There is definitely a lot of debate about what faith means and whether atheists have faith too. I do think that atheists could potentially have some ground to say that as the negative position, they do not have to defend a claim as much as theists, HOWEVER, this "burden of proof" type of thinking only works if it were true that there was NO evidence for God. I do not think that is true. I think there is some potential indications of God, but also some evidence against particular views of God.
@@TheChristianAtheist One thing this video did get me thinking about is as you said in this comment that "the central human question is, how shall I ACT in this world?"
That is one of the questions I am trying to answer for myself. Also, how would I act differently if I either believed there was a God or believed there was no God. I don't know if it would make much of a difference. The biggest change in behavior would be whether I actively taught people about God or not.
Another question I have pondered is whether to sort of "pretend" that God exists and to teach other people about God even when I myself am not confident. I'm not sure because it feels almost deceptive that I would be teaching others about God without having much confidence. For instance, I am studying to be a teacher and will have to decide whether to work at a Christian school or a public school, so this is a real decision for me.
19:00 The Magician's Nephew reference is a great analogy- An agnostic atheist would jump into a pool to live in the "atheist world" with an awareness that there are other worlds which they might also live in given an opportunity; but at the moment, the atheist world is the one that makes the most sense. If someone were to reach out from another world and provide sufficient evidence that there is a "theist world" where God does exist in a way that makes sense, they can return to the wood between the worlds and choose to jump into that pool. People are free to live according to their convictions and should be willing to make a change when their worldview is challenged in a positive way.
Thanks John for being so truthful.
It is no mistake ... our Lord IS TRUTH. If we are to abide in Him we must have an unfailing commitment to truth, even when it is inconvenient.
Please invite this brother again, he gives me tears!
That was the most beautiful conversion story i've ever heard. God bless you, John Wise, your wife, your family, this video, Sean's channel and everyone watching.
The "switch" John is talking about at the end reminds me of how God wants us to choose him. We are vitally an active participant of that choice.
This was wonderful in so many ways. It took me about 25 years to find my way back to God too and He also placed someone in my life at the right time.I think having doubts is part of our fallen nature and I wish I had the 'simple' faith of some. However, like John my road is one way. I'm not going anywhere now.
Would be interested in a follow up conversation between you
The Holy Spirt will open anyones heart and mind to His truth and love. It really is that simple if you want it.
Prove it.
@@LindeeLove try it
@@chrisgreen2299 Does holy spirit come in a bottle? How do you try it if you don't believe it exists?
@LindeeLove the way I met Jesus, I confessed all my sins to as far back as I could remember, then I said a prayer of sorts, "please forgive me I want to know if your real?" All at once a warmth filled my body, a love from God to intense to explain in words, a joy came into my heart, I was filled with the Holy Spirit, the world once looked flat in color, everything turned into bright bold colors. Jesus showed himself to me, I was born again. It was the most amazing experience of my life.
@@chrisgreen2299 How do you know your feelings were from a real god and not just your mind messing with you?
I have to say, I don't think this guy was ever a true born again Christian before his "deconversion". That's why almost nothing changed when he became an atheist. He was culturally Christian because he was raised in a Christian milieu. As all children do, he believed what he was taught. Then later in life, he came to believe it for real, and was, I assume and hope, born again.
Thanks for sharing! From my understanding, before 1950, the New Testament classes were in public schools for "moral education"! Recently, Nobel Prize economic winners have said that countries can have "prosperity" if they have a good "democratic" government and a "free market" system! Many Northern European Countries have pushed the "Free Market" idea to the extreme by "legalizing" many vice activities like sex and drugs, etc... but my question is: what roles do Biblical, Spiritual, Moral, and Religious freedom values play in modern societies? Do they make any good or bad impacts on society??
Faith doesn’t come easily to me either, brother. I also went to Bible college and fell away afterwards. I studied the physical sciences at the undergraduate and graduate levels, and felt like I had to have more faith to believe their “origin story” than that of Christianity. I eventually came back to faith, and I tell you….I wouldn’t have it any other way. I’ve been intellectually honest every step of the way and felt like I never had any choice in the matter, but the journey has been incredible.
Why do you have faith? Faith is believing something without convincing evidence. I suppose Christianity must make you feel good. Maybe that is good enough reason to go with it. Without your faith in Christianity, does the world seem too gray and sad for you?
@@LindeeLove I don’t think it has anything to do with grayness or sadness, at least not for me. I’m more interested in why we’re here….why life exists in the first place and how in the world have we survived this long. I suppose having some explanation for why we’re here feels good? But there are certainly hard things about Christianity that don’t feel good too….particularly the responsibility that comes with it.
Wrong ... faith is deciding that the evidence you have is convincing, just as you do everyday, whether Christian, atheist, or indifferent. Faith is what allows us to act.
@@TheChristianAtheist Either you are convinced by the evidence or you are not. Faith is the opposite of justified belief.
I am a natural sceptic partly because my parent's mission organization had bad theology. I never left Christianity because nothing else made more sense, including atheism, so I just kept going but in reality I was bored beyond measure. Then I found Dr Michael Heiser and other scholars who have awakened my interest in understanding God better.
I've had to completely reconstruct many interpretations I had been taught growing up that ultimately didn't stand up to scrutiny because of
- logical exegetical fallacies such as reading the New Testament back into the Old Testament and therefore out of context or
- anachronistic translation problems with words like 'pistis' that many times have a primary meaning of faithfulness or allegiance vs only cerebral acknowledgement or
- misunderstandings in the Middle Ages and Protestant Reformation around the Israelite and ancient near east symbolism in the Israelite sacrificial system.
I feel like I'm finally getting a fairly accurate understanding of the Character and Nature of YHWH after 5 or 6 years of study.
Absolutely fascinating! I loved this !
What a W!
Trooper pulls over a speeding car. Turns out the driver is Werner Heisenberg, who formulated the "Uncertainty Principle."
Trooper: Dr. Heisenberg, do you know how fast you were going?
Heisenberg: No, but I know where I am.
Dr John Wise disproves the theory of nominative determinism then.
THIS deserves THE CROWN for a subtle, clever and humorous response. Bravo, SpiritofHegel - whereas YOUR NAME proves it!
You do realize, however, that there are only two of us who have any idea what you just said? This makes your comment all the more precious and meaningful to me, as you have the self-restraint to not worry whether or not you are being understood, or popular. You are a rare gem, and I appreciate it more than words can speak.
Hegel has been my nemesis since beginning the Christian Atheist, and I have a ten-part series on the podcast explaining his work and his tragic wake of destruction. Nevertheless, I have ENORMOUS respect for him (and now for you), as few, if any, today really read and understand his work, making it all the more pernicious that his logic underlies nearly EVERYTHING in the modern mind.
Touche, Spirit ...
sean asks the best questions !
my vote is Follow it up, Sean
Check out the book Law Without Authority or Limits: Kelsen’s Dilemma, by Daniel Gruber, for a mind-stretching and interesting dive into legal philosophy.
Great show would love to see followuoon backwardconversion😊😊
Interesting. The difference in his worldview and argument that I have not heard before is that beliefs are a choice. Many would disagree and say that you do not choose your beliefs.
I don't know we choose to believe a lot of other things esp in daily life.
This is a shot in the dark but it sounds like to me that Dallas Willard’s Ontology/Epistemology could be of great assistance here in further strengthening Dr. John Wise’s faith. I’d like to know if I am wrong so, I’d like to speak with him about that.
Speak away, or email me if you'd like.
In our liberal democracy folk have the human right to pursue the faith of their choice and raise their family as they choice. People may even change their mind.
This is wonderful
I got something out of this. Thanks!
I totally agree with the guest, that's how I see it
That was so good. I'd love to hear another, yes. Thank you both so much.
Why doesn't truth matter to believers? Sean's first question might've been, _"what evidence of a god did you find?"_ In fact later in the conversation Wise flat out says it, _"I do agree that there is no turn to God that is purely intellectual there's just there's not the the evidence is not going to convince you one way or the other."_
Well that's it exactly: we don't know a god exists, because knowing relies on evidence, and so we shouldn't believe in gods.
A common idea is that people reject God (or the idea of God) because of a lack of evidence. Christianity and Judaism make a slightly different claim - people reject God despite evidence. This is what happens in the stories of the angelic and human rebellions. Both occurred while living in God's presence; one in heaven, and one in Eden. A claim is being made here about human nature, regardless whether these events happened or not.
@@gregorytoews8316 Does it bother you that you're sort of vaguely saying we have evidence of God _while presenting exactly no evidence of a god?_
Like imagine Gary describes how in leprechaunism they have a slightly different take: that people reject leprechauns despite having evidence. Does Gary provide evidence when he says this to you? No. _Does that sound like a true idea to you?_ Are leprechauns worth believing?
@@majm9309 it looks like we understand each other.
@@gregorytoews8316 So you agree we don't have any reason to believe a god exists?
@@majm9309 enough evidence for me. I don't find any other cosmology attractive. Even my capacity to invent a God is something a material cosmology says I shouldn't have. Why else do people like Daniel Dennet and Thomas Nagel say a material universe can't account for consciousness? A material cosmology would say a material brain/universe can't invent or discover a material cosmology. To do so, it would need to step outside of itself. Impossible by definition.
Another interview on his revelation of Biblical truth (i.e. not making up our own God) would be great.
Sean yes. Divisions can only attract those looking for their own right thinking, but one faith is the righteousness of God, not a teligion to suit lifestyle best.
That is why my Ytube videos are a battle against presuppositions, misconceptions and invested interests, but the truth is the only way to redemption.
Yes to exploring from progressive to more conservative Christianity. Too often we hear the opposite!
Yes we do, thanks!
Did you study with prof. Devries? My mom went to college with his wife
Hearing About how this man, has accepted our Lord Jesus is admirable and a gift From God! There are many Marriages that are unequally yoked!
God Bless your marriage!
He HAS! I love my Jenny with a love I never even knew was possible. Christian marriage is the BIGGEST target of the enemy, and he's almost won the battle. Pray for Christian marriage - it is the foundation for all that God has for us.
@@TheChristianAtheist You are very Blessed, thank you for answering!
@@mystrength5640 Thank YOU for engaging! Continue to do it in God's strength. He calls us to it!
I read Charles Darwin's book, The Theory of Evolution by Mutations & Natural Selection published in 1859 and Richard Dawkins book, The Blind Watchmaker and thought that the books/Authors didn't fit into my experience of my Life. The Holy Bible/ Scriptures/ Word of God however sounded all like it fitted with the Evidence of mine and everyone 'elses lives.❤️👶🇬🇧🙏🗣️🗣️😊👁️
Sounds like you have confirmation bias. You believe what you want to be true.
@@IIrandhandleII i will shock you, llrandhandell that 's true, i agree.
@@IIrandhandleIIWhat kind of logic is that? He says one book he read didn't line up with how he experienced life and the other book did. Then you say, you believe it because you want it to be true.
If that's not a faith based conclusion, I don't know what is
@@IIrandhandleII condescension is the earmark of a lack of substantive rebuttal😂
@jamesburton9708 that is the opposite of a rational and reasonable mind, I didn't get the outcome I wanted so I tossed out the data until it fit my desired result. This is why many Christians have issues with science, I don't want evolution to be true therefore it's not. They would rather believe the earth is 6 thousand years old and believe noahs ark is a historical event, we then get folks like ken hamm and Kent hovind making money from fooling people, and especially targeting children.
Wdym, you don't know what made you flip the switch the second time?! My hard scientific man; you fell in love! 😅
THAT is true. I never denied it, even once. The Lord Jesus was made again evident to me THROUGH Jenny (hence, the title of our book, "Through the Looking Glass"), which is only to be expected. We ALL come to God through other people. "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent?" In the fullness of time (after 25 years of softening my hard heart through intellectual means) God sent Jenny to me. It is the same Bible story we encounter from start to finish. What you meant as a criticism simply reinforces God's grace.
"How beautiful are the feet of those who bring the gospel of peace."
@@TheChristianAtheist absolutely, it wasn't supposed to be a criticism - a bit further in the video you expand on it but I already commented and failed to edit it later.
PS
Look into history and specifically eucharist.
Yes, please have him back to talk about progressive to orthodox!
Would like to hear John Wise on the transition from progressive to conservative. But also on how he left evolutionist views.
Excellent! I wholeheartedly agree that it comes down to choice. There is enough rationale on both sides to justify belief… what will you choose?
God has done the perfect job in how he has ordered the world such that, in each direction, you will have to live by faith but those who are to be justified will live by faith in the Son of God.
Dawkins did say, even if God spoke in a booming voice, he will choose not to believe. Makes sense what you said Doc.
More importantly, Jesus said that even if a dead man returned and spoke to them, they would not believe. They have Moses and the prophets - God's word - if they refuse to hear, they have made their choice. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Why does this sound like a podcast that I heard a few weeks ago?
Can someone explain this in light of Hebrews 6:4?
THIS is the verse (and I understand its application to me) that honest believers (including a good friend at the church where I turned back to Christ again) honestly struggle with. I can only tell you my story, and I don't believe it is MY place to convince you in this case how to interpret God's word. Thanks for raising it, though. We must all "wrestle with God," and seek its meaning with the Holy Spirit dwelling within.
@@TheChristianAtheist thank you sir for the reply. I asked the question because our paths are very similar and it causes me much anxiety.
@@seamusomavity Best answer (the promise to which I cling): "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
@@TheChristianAtheist thank you. This video has been encouraging
44:25 "... This raft I'm on fits the evidence better, but you know what? If it doesn't fit the evidence better, I'm still going with this side"......ok, truth-seeker. 😂
"Rather than raising the evidential bar, I... I lower it!" -William Lane Craig😅
That's right. This is faith ... when once you've discovered a TRUTH that captures your whole being, it becomes nearly impossible to let go of. When you've sailed on the raft and EVERYTHING confirms the raft, you are unwilling to give it up. Reason and evidence took me to the raft (and I chose it on that basis), and sailing on it (experimental testing) confirmed its truth. No one and nothing will take that from me now. That's why I say in my podcast, mirroring Job, "if he slay me, yet will I trust him." What I find amusing is that you think science is something different. You should read evolutionary biologist Eugene Koonin's book, THE LOGIC OF CHANCE. In it, Koonin makes the case that the the possibility of natural processes (chemistry and environment) producing just two of the necessary cellular machinery to begin the evolutionary processes of life is less than 1 in 10 to the power of 1016 (his calculations, not mine), yet despite the statistical impossibility, he clings to his evolutionary dogma. To get a handle on what I mean by statistical impossibility, consider that there are only 10 to the 80 elementary particles in our ENTIRE universe, and that the probability Koonin calculates is over 900 order of magnitude larger than that. Gone is the scientific pretense to inductive logic, or inference to the best explanation. If he were being logical, he would admit that the universe was intelligently designed, but NO ... at all costs, even basic logic, we must avoid that conclusion. Listen to my podcast, "Evolutionary faith." Truth above all, and at all costs. When you get to know Jesus personally and intimately, you understand that Truth, Love, Beauty, and morality are found not in abstract reasoning, but in a concrete person: the Lord Jesus Christ. He is Truth.
I think Dr. Wise plays fast and loose with the distinctions between “faith” and “confidence” which happens all the time in these discussions. Atheism isn’t “faith in nothing”. It’s a lack of belief in the claim that there is a god or gods. Speaking for myself as an Atheist I do in fact “believe” in a lot of things > meaning I “think” a lot of things are true or not. The amount of confidence I have on these various conclusions varies depending on which conclusion we are talking about. When it comes to my Atheism I’m very confident in my position as in my 57 years of life I haven’t heard any sound reasons to overcome my skepticism that unverifiable, supernatural tall tales could be true. (Dr. Wise's story does not give me much pause for thought.) Having said that I do recognize there is a limit to the extent of my knowledge and ability to understand so I could be mistaken. Let me know when Jesus finally makes his come back and I will stand corrected. Let’s not hold our breath while waiting though. 🙂
I don't understand how you can know God one day, and then say you don't know Him another day. Believing God exists is very different to meeting Him as a reality. Jesus and His sacrifice for us is the only way to KNOW God. From the day I was born from above at 14 years old, no matter how far from His ways I've wandered, I could never, ever have denied He is real. He's always with me for one. And when you meet someone in real life, you know you've met them. I can only understand this if someone is actually deciding if they believe OF God. Like, does he exist. But, if you believe IN Him through Jesus, He comes and lives with your spirit inside of you and you can never wonder if He is real again. It would be like me trying to say I don't believe that I exist. OF God, or IN God. Where is your belief? Jesus paid our debt to restore us to relationship with God again.
I believe he has an incredible, intellectual knowledge of God, but hadn't personally met God. I relate to the intellectual knowledge and dedication to God when I was a child and committed my life to this unknowable entity. But suddenly at 19, I met God, and His love overwhelmed me and changed me from the atoms out. I was truly born again. I couldn't deny God's existence any more than I could deny my beloved late parents existed. I can't prove it, but the evidence is overwhelming. The reason I have some questions about Dr. Wise's reconversion is because he talks about God as of He is a character in a philosophy who he decided to surrender to in order to get his wife, not a personal friend you would sacrifice all for.
@newlywedbeth I'm hearing you brother. I hope and pray he's saved now. I totally relate to your experience.
I think what you’re saying here hinges on whether or not you believe once saved always saved or that it is false.
@@briannamoniqueblog I'm not sure if that's what it means. I just know that not all people who say, "Lord, Lord," will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. God knows who we are and what our motives are. I know someone who is very intellectually knowledgeable about the Bible and is devoted to Jesus and says he has been a 100% Christian since he was a young boy. He works at a Christian organization/ministry. But he is hate-filled, never goes to church, is critical of every church he visits, is abusive to his family, is a miserable, joyless person, stirs up arguments everywhere he goes, is incredibly impatient, narcissistic at times, and can't control his temper. Is is once saved, always saved? I believe he never knew Christ.
Hi everyone in this line of reasoning. See my comments to the @michaelnewsham post above.
I never understand how an evangelical marries, or even dates, an agnostic.
Interesting discussion. 📜
Yes, follow up
I wonder how many young people he turned away from God as an atheist professor?
I was a little confused about atheism being a choice vs faith, as if the evidence for both is equivalent. Materialism when dissected doesn’t seem logical. Christianity has its logic problems (why does a “sinless”animal suffer under a just God) but a designer of life seems so obvious in these modern scientific times.
Matthew 5:37... Christ said, "But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one."
Atheism is a kind of religion. It takes a lot of faith to believe that nothing created everything. And it takes a lot of faith to believe that things like love and morality come from materialism.
So, so true.
It absolutely is a religion, because the concept that atheism is the "default" or "neutral" worldview is in itself a belief, a belief that is quite convincingly wrong, due to the insurmountable evidence for God's existence.
@@SebastianOsborn Is non stamp collecting a religion? What’s your best evidence for any god’s existence and how can I test it?
It really depends on what you mean by “religion”. Atheism has no traditions. It has no all-encompassing worldview. It says nothing about how people live their lives.
Religious people tend to conflate
- Atheism (there is no God)
- Agnosticism (I don’t know)
- Secularism (No favouritism)
- Naturalism (Everything is physical)
- Empiricism (Only what we can see is real)
- Nihilism (There is no ultimate meaning)
- Epistemological relativism (There is no objective truth)
- Moral relativism (There is no objective morality)
This comment seems to target naturalism with an argument from incredulity (which is a fallacy).
By the way, “everything came from nothing” is a waning view in cosmology and requires a very specific concept of “nothing”. Before criticizing, do some research and get a basic idea of modern theories. PBS Spacetime is a great channel, but they use a lot of jargon.
@@horridhenry9920 Non-stamp collecting is not a belief in something that may or may not exist, it is a hobby. Not a good example. There's a lot of evidence, both from what Christians call general revelation and special revelation. Look them up. You want something provable? Well, can you prove that a criminal did a crime by going back in time and bearing witness yourself? No, all you have is evidence that may prove it from the crime scene. Even if you did go back in time, what if you come back and tell people the truth of what you saw and they think you're lying? In the same way, our evidence for God is the best proof we have, but some people will still choose not to believe.
John your journey is familiar as you need reason to believe and a reason to believe, and God has always provided evidence by prophecy so that faith can be reasoned.
The phrase that came to my mind, when I listened to John's more recent conversion story was "How great Thou art"🥹. Thank you so much for this interview and YES, please please do the part 2!
Yes, please! Follow up with progressive to conservative! Thank you!
Thank you for the great interview. As an atheist, I stumbled upon Christianity a few years back. I think I am in that ambivalent Narnia world described in the interview. I'm struggling with surrendering to Christ because I can't say that I love Him, and I don't want to be a hypocrite or do things because I am forced. One of the ideas I with the most is the one put forth by Dostoevsky's Ivan Karamazov in the chapter "Rebellion". Here it is in a nutshell:
"Imagine that you are creating a fabric of human destiny with the object of making men happy in the end... but that it was essential and inevitable to torture to death only one tiny creature ... And to found that edifice on its unavenged tears: would you consent to be the architect on those conditions? Tell me, and tell me the truth!"
I would love to hear a response to this from you Dr. McDowell or Dr. Wise.
I can see many of his writings online from after he became a Christian. but nothing from the 25 years where he was an atheist Professor of Philosophy. Could you refer me to some of his books, essays, or articles from that period? Otherwise, it's as if they didn't exist and it's all made up- and I'm sure that is not the case.
👆 seconded
Never published as an atheist professor. Will send you my dissertation if you'd like to read it!
@@PiRobot314 See my response to Michael below. Also, I responded to your other comment. Deeply appreciated!
@@TheChristianAtheist Ok, I might like to look at that (not that I'll be able to understand much in a philosophy dissertation).
Also, to clarify, I do believe you and I don't think anything you said is "made up" I'm more just curious about what your thought process was like early in your atheism.
I hate it when people say things like "you were never truly... [whatever]" because it feels like a dismissal without serious engagement of a changed mind
Were you thinking of sending by email?
@@TheChristianAtheist
Sorry for questioning, I think the problem is in the phrase "atheist philosophy professor"- can mean "a philosophy professor who studies atheism" (a broad enough field in itself) or a " philosophy professor who is an atheist but whose main field of study is something else- logic, analytic philosophy, linguistic philosophy etc".
39:18 is where it gets wild. So you’re telling me that, in retrospect, you became convinced that your deconversion was a conscious decision rather than a slow, meticulous process. Then, you present an argument from incredibly demonstrating that you’ve rejected evolution. Finally, you admit that even if the evidence pointed the opposite direction, you would still be a theist.
This is the difference between science and philosophy: In science, we have an epistemological framework for determining truth to extremely high degrees of accuracy. In philosophy, you have to make some assumptions to investigate their implications. This can be useful, but there’s a risk of neglecting good epistemology and just going with what “feels right”.
And in the end he was stuck in a crossroads, to follow his heart and pursue the woman he fell in love with, or remain an "agnostic" who consistently goes to and is involved in the church
Knowledge in science also relies on assumptions. Reason and empiricism both uphold each other.
"Someone compared neanderthals to republicans. And I thought, what an insult to neanderthals!"
...And like that you've lost me.
PBS recently had a Documentary which almost admitted neanderthals were just big ugly humans
pbs has a Documentary almost admitting neanderthals were big ugly humans
This video makes better sense in reverse. The Pinecreek Theorem strikes again!
He was an atheist going to church?
Yup ... listen to the first 10 of my podcasts if you'd like the backstory to that seemingly odd fact.
Definitely want to hear progressive to more traditional.
So your saying, God has given enough evidence to believe, but only if you want to believe?
Yep- that is the only way we can exercise the libertarian free will He gave us because if God made it impossible to disbelieve than we would have no free will to choose Him.
And we know from Satan, knowing God exists doesn’t stop someone from rebelling and committing sin.
It was not clear to me...did Dr. Wise marry the widowed homeschool mother of 7, or another Christian woman? Also, why was Dr. Wise attending church? Did he attend with his first wife before she died?
Yes, to both. The widowed homeschool mother of 7, and my first wife and I attended that church.
18:00 I think the guest is saying that you can't be an agnostic atheist because the terms are mutually exclusive?
In academic philosophy, the terms "agnostic" and "atheist" are not mutually exclusive. Many philosophers argue that agnosticism and atheism address different aspects of belief and knowledge.
*Atheism*: Typically defined as the lack of belief in gods or divine beings.
*Agnosticism*: Concerned with knowledge claims, asserting that the existence or non-existence of gods is unknown or unknowable.
One can be:
1. *Agnostic atheist*: Does not believe in gods (atheism) and also believes that knowledge about gods' existence may be impossible (agnosticism).
2. *Gnostic atheist*: Believes gods do not exist and claims to know this with certainty.
3. *Agnostic theist*: Believes in gods but acknowledges uncertainty about their existence.
Philosophers like:
1. *Bertrand Russell*: Self-identified as an agnostic atheist.
2. *Anthony Flew*: Advocated for agnostic atheism.
3. *Michael Martin*: Argued for agnostic atheism in his book "Atheism: A Philosophical Justification".
Sources:
1. "The Oxford Handbook of Atheism" (2013)
2. "A Companion to Atheism and Philosophy" (2012)
3. "The Cambridge Companion to Atheism" (2007)
I personally think it was cowardly for atheist to cower away from 'a belief that there are no gods' to 'a lack of belief...'
Theism or atheism should be your outlook or description on reality
Therefore, an atheist will be someone who thinks reality is a-theon (without god[s])
@actingapostlesage
I would rather someone answer honestly. The terms(atheism/agnosticism) don't matter that much. Either someone is convinced , one way or the other, or they are not sure.
@tex959 I think I agree with the honesty part. A latitude - only recently did the term atheist move from the general 'believing in no gods' to the non specific 'lack of belief'
As per the honesty, I believe many (vast majority) atheists believe that there are no gods, but only hide behind 'lack of belief' and agnostism so they can avoid supporting their belief.
@@actingapostlesageQuestion for you, (just think of it as a thought experiment.)
Is my name Jack? (Not my screen name, but my real name). Do you believe that my name is Jack? Do you believe that my name is not Jack?
@PiRobot314 I see you 👀
'What your name is' and 'whether or not you exist' are two different categories, Chris.
My parents grew up in Lancaster County so I have relatives there and can say they trust in their own righteousness rather than Jesus's finished work of the cross. There's the religious spirit, tho they don't talk about Jesus they're proud they go to church and think they don't live like the world but they have pride, , materialism, even tho in the distant past they didn't own tvs or electronics and the women made their own clothes, that's not the case nowadays.
That's not giving God glory, but their own flesh,
"They put on the form of godliness but deny the power", which I can say that's 90% of American churches.
Jean Paul Sartre repudiated everything he wrote except for his plays - like No Exit.
Whether or not you are an atheist depends on how you answer the question "Do you believe in a god or gods?" If you don't answer that question "yes I do" then that means you aren't a believer and therefore are an atheist.
That's right, and if you were born a male, you can just "choose" to be a female, and "presto change-o" you're a female! It is wonderful in the modern world to change any definition/reality you want to to make it suit your purposes.
I have a whole series on what is an atheist in the Christian Atheist podcast.
Why get hung up on definitions. Even a child can understand difference between atheist and agnostic. Made perfect sense to me even in high school when I didn’t care about philosophy. Why even debate?
@@benmlee Because it obscures the truth and justifies their self-deceptive beliefs. I used to do the same.
@@TheChristianAtheist Devil is truly a cunning deceiver. Been a Christian 40 years. I would not believe it until I was flipped twice in one night recently. Was reading 1John 3:1 see what great love the Father has for us. My thought said God is not love. Just like that my faith was gone. I actually felt close to God at that time. I ask what about all these passage on love. Was told they are all lies. So God is evil? Answer was yes. So God will abandon us at the end? Yes. How cruel? Yes. I didn't want to believe it, but had no choice. The voice was too powerful. So God never intend to save man. Who are we to God.
But how can faith go so fast. I wondered why God let this happen to me. Now I can't even stand reading the Bible because it was just a lie. I was going to pretend this never happened, and just keep reading the Bible and go to church until I sort this out. The coming months or even years would be difficult. I said no, can't do this. I have to resolve this out right now. But how can you pray to a God that don't care?
At the dark moment, a voice said who told you God is not love? Instantly, I knew the answer. Before I can even formulate word devil, it was gone. I flipped again. Didn't even get the satisfaction of saying is the devil, and the devil is a liar. Within 20 minutes, I was back to faith again. Left me puzzled.
Some time later, I was talking to a young man at church. He seemed troubled, and said he could not believe in Jesus. I said, say with all your might you want righteousness, you reject sin, reject evil, you reject the devil. I can see his demeanor change. He start to acknowledge Christ. The devil is a roaring lion.
From his podcast:
_As an atheist, I embraced evolutionary theory, its cosmogony and cosmology hook, line and sinker.
As a re-converted Christian, I began the Christian Atheist as a theistic evolutionist.
This year, after long and serious study, I abandon my faith in evolutionary biology and all its Hegelian ideological tendrils that have infected the rational scientific worldview in the past two centuries.
Let the evidence speak, and let the people of God listen to what He says, and obey._
Nobody, at least nobody serious, has "faith" in evolutionary biology.
Reading this stuff, I can see yet another person with some issues, probably needs a therapist, not platformed on RUclips. Sean, you owe it to people not to platform them when they're not well.
Evolution is a solid fact of science. It underpins all of biology and the life sciences. To not believe evolution is to admit you've got problems with accepting reality, it's like denying that the sun is at the center of a heliocentric solar system and that instead, the moon and sun are of equal size and orbit a flat earth.
All that said, I guess I'm happy to see you platform all these types of people who believe nonsense as you're helping the younger generation deconstruct by the boatloads.
Anyone that doesn't realize evolution is a solid fact is not playing the game fairly (or has a mental problem with reality).
Also, the thumb nail is dumb. Nobody can have their "atheism" implode. It's impossible.
Atheism isn't a belief, it cannot implode or anything else, it's a lack of belief in a god or gods. What happened isn't anything to do with this atheism, which was a stated lack of belief in god or gods, but rather, he embraced the idea of belief (again).
You might better say his theism exploded and he couldn't deny it or something like that.
Hello, my friend. I just have a question about the topic you brought up, or rather, the assertion you made. Regarding evolutionism, it is not a truth or dogma of science; it faces many challenges in being supported and is quite fragile when it comes to answering the most basic questions. I have a question unrelated to this topic: Are you a creationist?
If it isn't Michael, the most annoying pastor of the atheist religion I ever saw online. And that's saying something.
Still believing in the power of your own arrogance and ignorance? It's funny how people who claim to be atheists spend all this time trying to mainly convince themselves. Because, believe me - nobody else is convinced by your annoying presence or comments. (But like every good atheist on RUclips you're just "following the facts" and those facts seem to turn every convinced follower of the atheist religion into an utter nuisance it seems).
I think it is you who needs the therapy. If it isn't because of your delusional atheism then certainly for being absolutely obnoxious and toxic. Good luck! And, no, I won't pray for you because it would be a waste of time.
One thing is for certain - if you think Sean is driving people to deconstruct, you're the one driving people away from atheism.
Everyone reading more than one comment from you would rather be Buddhist, Hindu, Animist or Christian than consider becoming a member of your cult.
@@seb98885 Evolution is a solid fact of science. There's literally no debate except among science deniers, on par with flat earthers.
There is no such thing as "evolutionism" lol, I mean, maybe there is in some ignorant minds, but evolution is an observable, testable, well established fact.
It's the foundation of modern biology, medicine, and life sciences.
It's not fragile at all, your assertion is silly. Evolution is so solid because it's been attacked more than anything in science, and it is always, in the end, proven to be the reality we live in on this earth.
It's a fact, as certain as the heliocentric solar system. To deny evolution is to pretend the earth is flat and the sun orbits the earth, it's literally that dumb.
Or worse.
Evolutionary biologist Richard Lewontin:
“We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfil many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.”
Lewontin, R., Billions and billions of demons, The New York Review, January 9, 1997, p. 31.
Atheist paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould:
“Our ways of learning about the world are strongly influenced by the social preconceptions and biased modes of thinking that each scientist must apply to any problem. The stereotype of a fully rational and objective ‘scientific method’, with individual scientists as logical (and interchangeable) robots is self-serving mythology.”
Gould, S.J., Natural History 103(2):14, 1994.
The fact that you have a PhD doesn’t mean you are smart. “The fool says there is no God” I am currently on a boat cruise and I see the body of water around me and the power that you could feel pulsating in the water. To say that this immense force just popped into existence from nothing is nonsensical. Even magic needs a magician. I honestly believe that atheists don’t want there to be a God so they will fight tooth and nail to defend this belief system.
_‘The fool says there is no God’_
That's not smart at all, but childish and cheap:
‘If you believe something different from me, you're stupid.
_To say that this immense force just popped into existence_
_from nothing is nonsensical._
Right, and no atheist claims such nonsense. You're building
a straw man here.
_I honestly believe that atheists don't want there to be a God_
_so they will fight tooth and nail to defend this belief system._
For atheists, belief is not a question of will and atheism is not
a belief system. You're building another straw man here.
“In speaking of the fear of religion, I don’t mean to refer to the entirely reasonable hostility toward certain established religions and religious institutions, in virtue of their objectionable moral doctrines, social policies, and political influence. Nor am I referring to the association of many religious beliefs with superstition and the acceptance of evident empirical falsehoods. I am talking about something much deeper-namely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers.
I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.”(”The Last Word” by Thomas Nagel, Oxford University Press: 1997)”
― Thomas Nagel
You are right atheists do not want there to be a God. They are their own god.
@@joannquaid6037
_"You are right atheists do not want there to be a God."_
Atheists, but also theists, justify this by characterising and describing the
actions of certain gods in mythical texts, in which the gods are portrayed
as brutal, egocentric rulers of violence. Nobody can want such gods.
_"They are their own god."_
These are your malicious words, not those of atheists. If theists have the
right to make up their own gods, why shouldn't others have the same right
to decide what or who they consider divine? The justifications would be
equally poor in both cases.
Atheist are an easy target that loving Christian's like to rebuke. But many people who reject the Bible also conclude that the universe and life within appear to have been created and designed. They just don't accept that Yahweh-a jealous and vindictive storm God-is the creator of it.
Infinite Awareness Writes Spiritual Letters and Only Infinite Awareness can Discern Them!
The purpose of any Spiritual Letter is to bring us to the place where we are the recipients of the Revelation of Spiritual, Infinite Awareness!
He who seeks to keep his(mortal) life shall lose it.....!!
Peace Be Unto You
Constantly thinking and trying to figure it all out is sometimes a curse. But sometimes a blessing. I do believe in the Lord and the truth but that doesn't stop my mind from trying to always figure it all out, which is impossible. I guess that's where faith has to happen.
My brother in Christ, you are not alone in that journey. I pray that in/with faith you find peace and calmness of heart and mind.
Romans 8:9 (NLT) But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)
I did not hear discussion about God revealing himself directly to Dr. Wise. Since we cannot be saved without the Spirit living in us, I'm surprised such a crucial point was not discussed. To have the certainty of reality of Jesus as truly the living God worth dying for, it seems only possible by coming to believe, and then most importantly, Jesus personally revealing himself and coming in and making his home in your heart. Through personally knowing him is where the faith comes from that cannot be shaken. Dr. Wise, where is that in your life? Did it happen and you didn't talk about it, or has it not happened yet? Consider the contrast with Becket Cook's testimony, clearly God revealed himself to Becket. But every life is different, the true test that the Bible gives us to know a person is saved is by fruit of a transformed life over time. This is clearly seen in Dr. Wise life. So maybe the Spirit lives in you, Dr. Wise, but you don't know it by direct experience?
Where is this alleged “philosophy professor” an actual professor of philosophy? He doesn’t appear to be affiliated with any college or university.
Currently at University of Arizona, Global Campus, formerly at East Stroudsburg University of PA. Also taught at several different online universities. Did my PhD and MA at University of CA, Irvine, and most of an MA at West Chester University of PA before transferring to the PhD program at UCI.
From searching the name of his professor; it could be The University of North Carolina at Greensboro.
Cheers
While listening further, they keep mentioning University of California, Irvine - so there..
You also have it in the description of the video.
@@TheChristianAtheist I have not been able to find any of your writings from the 25 years you were an atheist. Do you have any articles from this period, or did you specialize in other fields?
If you ever find yourself questioning your existence or you want answers about what your purpose is in this life,The
Q
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a
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is the only book in the world which will give you the true answers to these questions.
The only answer is Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God
Our worldview is volitional at end of day, not rational. And each one of us has to overcome our natural desires and "leaning" on our own ability to understand reality. John 3 starts to touch on this after verse 16.
I like that turn of phrase, designbuild! "Volitional, not rational." Our will, of course, is conditioned by our rationality, and will seldom, if ever, DEFY our rationality, but rationality cannot, by itself, DETERMINE the will. If our rationality can explain a set of facts in only two ways, we will have to choose one and see where it takes us.
@@TheChristianAtheist Thanks. And while true about rationality, it -to me- can be a loaded term (while people picture in mind all the positives of the concept). Criminology and fraud investigation assumes reasoning and rationale as part of the equation to find and convict someone, if fit to stand trial. This assumes a reason behind the volition, as I believe you are stating, regardless of how unacceptable their choice to others.
When I try to like this show, it simply will not "LIKE".