Just a clarification, Snorlax is in fact one of the best pokemon in Gen 2 Ubers as well, its just that Celebi etc were banned from OU. It's an interesting case of a pokemon that's elite in Ubers and OU. You can see the full viability rankings here: www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gsc-ubers-viability-rankings.3654941/
@@cloudyej7535 Ah ok. I know P-don was used on around 70-80% of teams in peak gen6-7, since it could run like 5 different sets that were all viable. I've never tried to make a gen2 team, without Lax.
I really liked the Chess Queen analogy saying a Pokémon is a must have in a format didn’t seem very balanced at first but it makes the format seem more appealing when compared to a chess queen, something that separates a good gen 2 ou player from the rest is knowing how to use their snorlax properly
It is a great analogy, but I still think there are issues with no banning a pokemon with a 100% pick rate. The fact that the chessboard starts the same way every game is fundamental to it, and imo antithetical to the idea of pokemon. A player can still distinguish themselves with how they use it, sure, but it undermines the core 'team building' concept. The 100% pick rate only reinforces the point that there was no way to punish picking a specific pokemon, even knowing beforehand that you'd see it. Sounds like a textbook case of something needing a ban. I'm not a competitive player though, so perhaps essentially limiting players to picking 5 pokemon and 6 movesets for a team really was the lesser of two evils. I wonder if similar metas have manifested have been normalized in other generations, particularly as they started adding more tiers.
@@whydoiexist2180 Yeah, fair facts. It's hard to imagine something tanky and versatile enough to fit unpunished in every team with the new coverage moves alone. Hypothetically, are there Ubers in recent generations strong enough to be 100% picked? I could imagine an analogous situation where there's something in NU that dominates the tier but would be useless in UU, so there's nowhere to really put it.
@@Dinlek Snorlax can run multiple sets still. Restalk, curse, belly drum or lovely kiss are a few that came to mind. Its not the exact same pokemon on every team
@@tootsie_ In actual GSC Ubers only Mew duos are considered anywhere close to Lax Lugia have this thing that reads "its weak to Electric" that severely limit it
@@tootsie_ Celebi and Ho-Oh are not very good in the tier, Lugia is very good but has drawbacks and both Mewtwo and Mew are excellent (though for slightly different reasons) but Snorlax is S+ in viability, it's still the best pokemon in the game
GSC Snorlax is a reminder that Pokémon get banned for making a metagame unhealthy and no longer fun to play in, rather than for being overpowered; there’s a strong argument for it being the most powerful Pokémon even in GSC Ubers, let alone in OU
from what i know the reason snorlax was never banned was because smogon wasn't around back then the sams way it is now, i mean even in gen 3 the only non main legend that were banned were mew, deoxys forms and latios and latias, it was only in gen 4 where they started doing more bans because of things such as centralisation, at least that's what i know from what i've seen.
@@zander2758 Technically, the ban train started in gen 3 with Wobuffet (but that was in great part because in gen 3, if two Wobuffet with leftovers faced off against one another (without Sandstorm) then the battle could literally never end, so they banned it to avoid that (it was already insanely strong without that ofc, but that little tidbit just meant that they banned it just to be safe)
Nah, it's unbanned because gen 1and 2 OU are essentially legacy format. With modern standard Snorlax would be banned, so would be Zapdos (Is considered better than Lugia in Ubers); Raikou might be fine considering it has real weaknesses. Then the meta would change significantly because 70% of teams lost 2 members. That kind of drastic change they don't want to do it despite the potential rewards. I'm curious on how that meta would be if there wasn't 2 forced slots.
@@AwesomeHairo My point was that there was considerably less drawback to it in gen 2. With something like Double-Edge/Curse/Rest/Sleep Talk Snorlax, your random option is between damage, buff, and heal. During this time, you're also immune to status damage and are able to boost past everything besides Ghost-types (and the occasional Steel or Rock-type). On something as fat as Snorlax, that's incredibly potent, and it's a viable strategy for the big guy.
Meanwhile the sleep counter reset in gen 5 and the weirdness of sleep talk interacting with the sleep counter in gen 3 makes sleepTalk way less viable in those gens (the gen 3 was discovered relatively recently and then implemented to simulators, so a lot of classic RestTalk sets arent that good anymore)
IIRC, I've heard that the best way to get an overall idea of a Pokemon's general bulk is adding its base HP to either Defense to gauge physical bulk or Sp. Def to gauge special bulk. Adding Snorlax's 160 base HP to its base 110 Sp. Def gets you to 270, and 160 + 65 gets you to 225. For perspective, Toxapex's HP (50) + Defense (152) = 202, and HP (50) + Sp. Def (142) = 192. We can test out this theory by running some damage calcs where both Snorlax and Toxapex take the same neutral physical hit from the same Pokemon, then another neutral special hit from the same Pokemon. If the theory is right, we should see Snorlax and Toxapex take similar damage from the physical hit, but Snorlax takes far less from the special hit than Toxapex. In this simple experiment, I chose Jolly Banded Weavile's Knock Off and Timid Specs Latios's Dragon Pulse as the sources of damage, and Snorlax and Toxapex were both EV'd and natured to take these hits as best as possible. Snorlax: - 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 211-249 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 141-166 (26.9 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO Toxapex: - 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Toxapex actually ends up the victor on the physical side, though only by peanuts, while Snorlax easily takes the Dragon Pulse much better than Pex, meaning that this general bulk gauge puts more emphasis on the Def/Sp. Def than HP, but the general idea still stands. Of course, Toxapex has lots of other factors that make it a better wall, such as better defensive typing, reliable recovery + Regenerator, and better support moves; ultimately, there's more to how good a Pokemon is at its job than just base stats. Still, it's important to recognize the role base stats play, and just how beefy Snorlax is, especially back in Gen 2, where no EVs meant all of your stats could be maxed out at no cost. And then you throw in things like two perfect setup moves in Drum and Curse, strong STAB, a diverse movepool with great coverage and support options, a decent, but not reliable, recovery that heals all HP and status, etc., and you can see why Snorlax was such a big boy back then. It wasn't unbeatable by any means. Certain sets get walled by certain Pokemon, Rest can be exploitable, it can get kaboomed on, etc., but it was just really good at what it did. And to think I was in the middle of writing a research paper when I got the notification for this video. I don't even play GSC. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
While Snorlax helps keep the Gen 2 OU meta from becoming overrun with powerful offensive sweepers like Zapdos and Raikou, the real reason why it's not banned is because Lax has 4-moveslot syndrome, CurseLax can't hit everything at once with it's one coverage move of choice. If you run earthquake you'll hit steel-types, Golem, and Rhydon, but you then get walled by Skarmory. If you run flamethrower or thunderbolt, it's reversed, you get Skarm but then Golem and Rhydon wall you. On top of that, running one of those coverage moves alongside Body Slam or Double-Edge on CurseLax also means you're forgoing sleep talk, which means you're passive while resting.
Funnily enough since you mentioned how only the Ubers are better than snorlax, snorlax is actually considered the best Pokémon in Ubers still and is ranked higher on the VR
0:10 so uh, Gen 2 snorlax has a track record of being the literal best pokemon in *Ubers* let's just, put that into perspective before anyone asks why the ebst Ubers mon would be allowed in OU, people have tried a snorlax-less GSC OU and the tier deadass becomes unfun to play
so does just breaking down the wall between OU and Ubers in Gen 2 still fun or do you just end up being forced into the team of Snorlax, Ho-Oh, Celebi, Lugia, Mewtwo, Mew? Not that I'd complain about having a Celebi on my team, favourite legendary and all, but... well I had to ask.
@@StarshadowMelody i mean that'd just be ubers. people have tried ou but with celebi and ho-oh (the worst ubers, definitely worse than lax). that metagame is ridiculously stally.
@@StarshadowMelody I think nearly all Ubers teams include Mew, Mewtwo, and Snorlax, but Lugia, Celebi, and Ho-Oh not as much. Lugia is used often with a curse set, Celebi is used pretty much just on stall with a cleric set, and Ho-Oh has 4-moveslot syndrome and suffers from not having good physical STABs, which limits it greatly (it doesn’t learn any good flying type moves, and its Fire STAB goes off of its lower special attack and doesn’t work with Curse; also, keep in mind that these guys are still very powerful and viable in the Ubers tier)
@@dinglepuss8594 Don't quote me on any of this, I'm no expert on this, but I believe what happens is that Zapdos and Raikou become extremely dominant, and the only real way to deal with them was Blissey, who just sits there and doesn't do anything. Not to mention a lack of something that hits hard as Snorlax isn't ideal for offensive teams. Pretty much, GSC without Snorlax becomes even more of what everyone already thinks GSC is
GSC Snorlax is a reason why I always question why people feel the need to ban something immediately instead of just letting the meta develop. I definitely agree that it holds the meta together
@@JustButton without Lax GSC becomes even more offensive (yes GSC is offensive) and it turns into a real "gotcha" game of hyper offensive sweepers with no real checks. BKC has done a whole hour long video on Lax i recommend watching that.
@@inkie_the_silly_squid I doubt there would be any Pokémon on Gen 2 OU that would replace the 95%+ usage rate of Snorlax. Yes other mons would be able to shine without it being there but I doubt Zapdos or Raikou would be 95% in usage.
the thing is that chance never happened. Smogon started in gen 3 and gen 2 wasnt taken seriously until years later, by the time people truly started playing the tier competitively snorlax already established itself as indispensable
One big thing you miss in this video: Sleep Talk. In only Gen 2 if Sleep Talk choose Rest they gonna restore his full hp again whitout having the problem of giving turns like today's Rest Talk does. On Lax this is important bc is the only form of sustain Lax has outside of Leftovers and in Gen 2 Rest Talk was as his peak
I like how pre gen 3 Normal type was so bonkers, that it necessitated a Normal Resist. Not just steel types and ghost types, but also Rock types (rock being a type that usually isn't great defensively in later gens). God, I love broken normal types.
@GACHI On one hand you are correct (though my inner competitive side cries at the fact). On the other hand, there are some Pokemon you would think are intended for great things based on their stats, in-game treatment, etc. As a completely arbitrary example, look at Guzzlord. In terms of overall stats, it's basically a minor Legendary (same BST as the Tapus). And in the games, it's basically treated as a threat on par with Legendary Pokemon, being part of some characters' back stories. But if you try using it online, you'll realize that it's competitive usage is average at best (NU in competitive Sun/Moon). And there are all sorts of reasons for this. Guzzlord would easily be more dangerous if it traded away 50 of its HP points for more Speed points, would be stronger if some of that Special Attack was just Attack, and it would be better all around if it had even some better recovery or HP draining options to combine with its incredible HP. Same applies to a lot of Legendaries. You'd think they'd be at least decent because of their high stats and in-game status, but then they end up being average or worse. Articuno, Entei, Stakataka, and the Regi families are all also examples.
Snorlax was in fact so much bulkier compared to everything else at the time, that the only attack that could OHKO it without a crit was an opposing Snorlax's STAB Self Destruct. Maximized EVs were insane.
I found your channel recently and I love your "here's why" series. Even as someone who has never played pokemon competitively, I think your videos are really entertaining and educational.
The glaring lack of Thousand Arrows. It really is that good of a move. Despite having access to Glare + Substitute, without Thousand Arrows, there was pretty much no reason to use it over Garchomp, thus it was in UUBL limbo for gen 6.
Probably because of Complete form and Thousand Arrows ignoring Flying/Levitate immunity, combined with Dragon Dance (and even Coil). Neither Complete nor 1000 Arrows existed in Gen 6 (well, Arrows _did_ but it was unused outside of Metronome).
I remember watching a friend battle in Gen 2, it ended in a stalemate. Umbreon vs Snorlax. Struggle war started and nothing could be done. They healed more than the damage recoil received and taken. So it was a tie. It also took a few hundred turns.
This is a fairly rare occurrence in gen 2 tbh. Actually, for most of the 2010s, offense was dominant, with the boom team taking over and being the most popular team
The thing I love the most about GSC Snorlax is just how customizable it is. There's so many different moveset combinations you can make to support your team and throw your opponent off. A favorite of mine that I ran a long time ago was Lovely Kiss, Double Edge, Thunder, Selfdestruct. Caught many greedy Cloysters trying to come in and spike.
An important part of the skilltesting part of Gen 2 meta is that Snorlax needs to be really careful in choosing its moves to cover threats. Defensive sets could find themselves halted by dedicated PP stallers such as Umbreon or Miltank or be forced out by Misdreavus. Offensive sets are more liable to be worn down or revenge killed by strong attackers like Raikou and Machamp. It's the best Pokémon but the rest of the OU tier carries tools to threaten it.
@@natnew32 Even if snorlax didn't exist, people would probably still bring those tools because they're used for more than *just* answering snorlax, even if Snorlax is the most important target.
@@emmetstanevich2121 Some of them, yes, but I remember smogon's description saying that snorlax's checks were so common precisely because snorlax is so common. I don't have any examples though.
Haha, love that you take suggestions. Saw a comment asking about why Snorlax wasn't banned in gen2 on one of your most recent vids and was kind of curious myself. Well, here we are!
Gen 2 Rules: Rule 1: No duplicates Rule 2: Clauses Rule 3: Legends/Mythics are banned *Rule 4: You must use Snorlax* *Rule 4.1: Oh yeah, even in Ubers*
I'm super interested in a Theory Thursday video on why banning Snorlax makes GSC OU less fun to play. You briefly mention in this video that the top spots are taken over by the likes of Zapdos, Tyrannitar and others, but intuitively, it makes more sense to me that having a more diverse list of top threats in OU would make for _more_ interesting gameplay, not less. It doesn't seem healthy for a Pokemon to be so good that not having it on your team is practically equivalent to surrendering. I'm certainly not trying to say you're wrong, I'm just ignorant and would like to know why Snorlax is healthy for GSC
without Lax, the crown for best Normal type in the game is given to either Miltank or Blissey, both of whom use Heal Bell as a part of their sets. This makes the game even slower than it already is and way less fun to play
Snorlax is much healthier for the metagame than people realize, cause it's best sets are either bulky sweepers or support enablers which both help offense shine in gsc. Also the best way to kill a snorlax isn't to use skarm you're better off just booming it
What if Flame Charge behaved like Rapid Spin? Post Gen 8, the moves are effectively the same except Rapid Spin removes hazards. Thematically, it doesn't make much sense, but it'd still be cool. Edit: By extension, what if they introduced more hazard removal moves to weaker types; for example, a Poison type move that melts away hazards?
Snorlax causes a lot of creativity too with sets. Not only sets on itself but on other members as well. And for those who think that not using Snorlax is creative, no, it is not.
4:31 Has anyone actually experimented with a Snorlax-less GSC OU, or is that just theoretical? It'd be interesting to see such an experiment; would the tier fall apart with the glutton, like people fear, or would it be fine - after an initial shakeup, true enough, but fine afterwards?
Yes, there have been Snorlax-less tournaments. Without Snorlax, the electrics become overpowered. So ban them too? Well then something else will fill their place
@@jopodevine no thy dont and wtf does "rhey will replace them too" mean lol waht you have a infinite supply of 130 base special attack electrics in gen 2?
@@C3l3bi1 there's everparalysing 30% chance thunder from zapdos ,raikou, and even Nidoking. All of them only really only walled by blissey. After they got banned, umbreon and bulky water stall became too strong and might got banned too. Then what? Alakazam and jynx domination? It became even more of a mess.
Im guessing the reasons Snorlax isnt banned in gen 2 are the same ones as why Meinfoo isnt banned un gen 8 Little Cup, though I would still like a video on that topic
Can you do a video on why Landours-T has not been banned in gen 6 and especially gen 7 where it was so versatile and oppressive everything you did was based around avoiding it and getting it dead immediately
@@stivaoblonskystan nah it’s more for gen 7 once it got defog. Once it got that it had 4-5 viable sets that opened up a diverse meta game apart from Lando-T being an integral part of each team. I just didn’t get why it wasn’t banned. Then again I’m a 1600 player so my opinion on the matter is skewed by low ladder bias
@@mrexcadrill8474 its just slappable on a lot of teams and it can fill a lot of roles... offensive lando-t lacks a lot of bulk while defensive cannot apply pressure as much meaning you have ways to take advantage of it all the time
"flareon next week" just happened to look at the right time, i appreciate the easter egg (on easter too), unless youre not gonna do it in which case im dumb
I really like the queen comparison. It's far and away the most powerful piece of your team and the scariest one to your opponent. Naturally, it's a huge target. Play it right, and you have a pretty good shot of winning. Play it wrong, and odds are you'll lose. And besides, if you hate Snorlax so much, you can always play in UU.
I’m curious what is better? Curselax vs curse lugia in gen 2. I’d say curselax since only 2 Pokémon threatens you and that is snorlax and machamp. But lugia is way more bulky but has more weaknesses
I noticed a curious fact. I learned in one of your videos that Golem went from OU to NU in Gen1 when they discovered Body Slam should not paralise Normal type pokemon causing a butterfly effect that led to explosion becoming less useful, and thus Golem became worst than Rhydon in every aspect. However, in the list you've shown Golem seems to be one of the most used pokemon in Gen 2. How did it dethrone Rhydon back? Was it the phys/spec split, or explosion becoming useful again?
I try as much as possible to win without Snorlax.. but this is a tough endeavor indeed. however.. every single team build has 2-3 (usually 3) pokes that can deal with Snorlax. an absolute must.
Ive been playing gen 2 ubers/ou with a good friend. Ive used snoelax, but used him wrong. Thanks. Also he missed several hits leading to a 0.0325% chance
Just my opinion here, but I would honestly rather if you put all of your content from both channels on just one channel. Only because you upload so much so I have to check in both of your channels a lot, and it would be easier if it was all in one place. Also more videos = faster growth
Yes, but those Pokémon would need to be able to, you know, take a hit from a boosted Snorlax if it wants to phase it out consistently. This more or less boils down to Steel-type phazers like Steelix and Skarmory; other Roar users like Raikou, Vaporeon, and Suicune don't fare that well
I remember trying to play Pokemon battles online and i picked a snorlax and i forget the rest. I thought it was a good set. Was i wrong, my snorlax got ko and i couldn't even take out 1 Pokemon. Competitive is super hard. And yet i used curse snorlax and their snorlax beat mine.
If Snorlax is the only answer to overwhelming threats such as Tyrannitar, Nidoking, and Zapdos, then couldn't the solution be to just ban them as well?
1) it’s not the only answer to those, and on a well-constructed GSC team (not counting cheese like baton pass) it won’t be. It’s more that by virtue of having a snorlax automatically on a team, you have a built-in contingency should your other checks get overwhelmed or haxed to death. 2) banning pokemon in earlier gens is fundamentally different from doing so in later gens due to the lower pool of pokemon available. Taking any one of those out would have significant ripple effects that just aren’t worth the return.
I've never understood how a pokemon that sees 96% usage in OU and is #1 on the Ubers viability rankings isn't an uber tier pokemon. Is there an actual reason why it's allowed, or is this just another "smogon loves stall" situation
Its actually one of the things keeping gen 2 from being stally. And i think theyve tried no-lax ou but it was so stally cuz it became raikou/zapdos vs blissey shit that no one wanted to play it. Snorlax legitimately makes the meta game healthier.
It actually made umbreon and miltank can't stall on everyone's face while maintaining defensive utility against otherwise broken raikou, zapdos, Kratos even nidoking.
@@N12015 I was hoping he'd or someone else here might know because this channel would attract people who are into competitive Pokemon. Thanks for the heads up though!
Despite the analogy with chess queen, the truth is they've gone too far with Snorlax in Gen 2. It's perfectly possible to turn him into a exceptional Pokemon without breaking the whole GSC metagame. Here are some changes that I believe that could have balanced Gen 2 mechanic a litte bit. 1. There is absolutely no reason why Snorlax's stats should be as high as Gyarados' one (540). Give him a 480 total stats and it's good enough. As none of Gen 1 Pokemon had his OG stats changed, only his SpAtt and SpDef would be changed. SpAtt: ~65~ → 50 SpDef: ~110~ → 65 It might seem too harsh towards him at first, but there's a good explanation: • In Gen 1, Snorlax's stats (430) was lower than Tauros' ones (450) and he was still among the best 5 Pokemons back in the day. It's good to remind Tauros' Special stats in RBY (70) was slightly higher than Snorlax's (65). Despite it, even the likes of Psychic's Gengar (Sp 130) couldn't 4OHKO Snorlax. So don't let this nerf fool you. Snorlax would still be a wall hard to be knock down thanks to his massive HP. The small decrease in SpAtt would prevent Lax's Fire Blast to OHKO necessary threats like Skarmory and Forretress. 2. Almost everything can learn Curse, technique way overused back in the day. Restricting it for few Pokemons could improve the overall experience for the GSC metagame. Obviously, the best way to avoid Snorlax running wild is to deny him learning it. It means the only legal way to bring Curselax back is through sweeping or Metronome (good luck lol). And I tell you in advance that very few sweepers would access Curse - maybe some Pokemons that belong to UU tier, like Girafarig and Mr. Mime, giving them more reasons to be somehow considered. 3. No Lovely Kiss for Snorlax. His movepool was already very vast. By the way, he isn't sexy enough. 4. Therefore, the wildest card left for Snorlax is his combo Belly Drum + Rest (+ Sleep Talk). Unlike Curse, it makes sense he learns all these moves due to his natural demeanour (fat and sleepy Pokemon). As his OG stats weren't modified, technically nothing was changed here, except he becomes vulnerable to special attackers, which is not a bad thing, Drumlax can still wipe out a whole team on his own with little consequencess. How can we turn Drumlax into a force to be reckoned without breaking the metagame or defying logic? It's a little risky, but some alterations in GSC metagame might find a interesting balance here: • (4.1) Rest would recover 75% of HP instead 100%. • (4.2) Rest cannot be reactivated via Sleep Talk. If Rest was randomly chosen, the user just lost the turn. • (4.3) Belly Drum can still take 1/2 of maximum HP down even if its Attack stats is at maximum. It would just fail only if the user would faint in the process. Not necessarily all these changes must be applied, perhaps just one of them would work fine, but they definitely help to make Drumlax less unwinnable. The first option (4.1) lessens Rest effectiveness. It would still heal more HP than Recover variations, still viable thanks to Snorlax's great HP, but it prevents Drumlax's Rest becoming so annoyingly broken. Combining it with the second one (4.2) could definitely push Snorlax down from the god tier since he couldn't heal himself for, at least, 2 turns. And, even if he uses Rest right after, he may not recover all his HP depending on opposing fire power. The third option (4.3) would make the combo Belly Drum + Rest + Sleep Talk way more risky for Snorlax's users since there is 25% of chance to this combo goes south. As Gengar and Misdreavus are secure counters for this Drumlax variant, maybe this option isn't as necessary as the two formers.
As well as Snorlax's necessary nerf, there are other changes that I believe to help find a nice balance to the metagame: 1. Skarmory's main role in GSC metagame is to hold strong physical Normal type Pokemons, like Tauros and Snorlax. As this metal bird is well-known to be a answer to Lax, I would increase slightly its Att stats to +10. Why? Because it would guarantee Skarmory's Drill Peck could finish Drumlax during Belly Drum ritual one-to-one before Snorlax activates Rest move. 2. For metagame's sake, Golem is supposed to be a threat for the two remaining S tier Pokemons: Zapdos and Raikou. However, due to their high SpAtt along with Hidden Abilities in contrast to Golem's mediocre SpDef and bad combo type, he still suffers in this department. Considering he belongs to tradevolution clan, all of them sharing similar total stats in spite of different characteristics. Just give all of them a sort of buff and benefit Golem more to make up for his bad type, affecting proportionally their family line too. He would still fall apart against common Water and Grass types, but could resist against users with non STAB moves, giving him a chance to inflict damage. Golem: 485 → 515 (increase its SpDef from 65 to 85 and increase its Att from 110 to 120) Alakazam: 495 → 505 (increase its SpDef from 85 to 100) Gengar: 500 → 500 (powerful enough in GSC) Machamp: 505 → 510 (increase its SpDef from 85 to 90) 3. Gen 2 brings a decent Poison type move, Sludge Bomb, but some types still lack a good move. Maybe it would be interesting to modify some stuff: A example is Ancient Power, move that looks like quite imponent at first. It makes little sense it is weaker than Rock Slide and HP Rock. As it lacks PP and is rather uncommon to find, increase its power to somewhere between 80 and 100. HP Rock may be used by many, but Ancient Power is unique. Some Pokemons like Aerodactyl would definitely take advantage of it.
Could you talk about regigigas and neutralizing gas wheezing galar in doubles? When neutralizing gas was first announced that was a huge deal but I really never heard anything come of it.
Just a clarification, Snorlax is in fact one of the best pokemon in Gen 2 Ubers as well, its just that Celebi etc were banned from OU. It's an interesting case of a pokemon that's elite in Ubers and OU. You can see the full viability rankings here: www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gsc-ubers-viability-rankings.3654941/
Makes sense with Mewtwo being a Sp. Atk monster and Ho-Oh's Sacred Fire being special.
Do you think you could maybe do a video on why Snorlax is the best pokemon in Gen 2 Ubers as well? This one mostly focuses on OU
Not one of, he's THE BEST in Ubers as well.
The best*
He Is literally the best in ubers too. If Mewtwo doesn't run submission he gets hard walled
I really like that snorlax has 100% usage, so it can only have a 50% win rate. This is obvious, but it’s cool to see still.
Technically around 50.5%, as everytime someone doesn't run it they lose, and there's always someone who tries being clever.
@@theapexsurvivor9538 u can try being clever by also bringing a snorlax unless ur on full BP teams
is it fair to say that Snorlax was the Primal groudon of gen2? Like how P-don is used on nearly every gen6-7 ubers team
@@eyecontrol4900 its way more than that
@@cloudyej7535 Ah ok. I know P-don was used on around 70-80% of teams in peak gen6-7, since it could run like 5 different sets that were all viable. I've never tried to make a gen2 team, without Lax.
Snorlax is basically the idea of "The secret of winning is not losing" taken to the extreme
It’s the epitome of “What’s the plan? Well it mostly involves not dying”
Taken to its logical extreme, at that.
Hahaha
I really liked the Chess Queen analogy saying a Pokémon is a must have in a format didn’t seem very balanced at first but it makes the format seem more appealing when compared to a chess queen, something that separates a good gen 2 ou player from the rest is knowing how to use their snorlax properly
I was going to comment the exact same thing; the analogy was just brilliant.
It is a great analogy, but I still think there are issues with no banning a pokemon with a 100% pick rate. The fact that the chessboard starts the same way every game is fundamental to it, and imo antithetical to the idea of pokemon. A player can still distinguish themselves with how they use it, sure, but it undermines the core 'team building' concept. The 100% pick rate only reinforces the point that there was no way to punish picking a specific pokemon, even knowing beforehand that you'd see it. Sounds like a textbook case of something needing a ban.
I'm not a competitive player though, so perhaps essentially limiting players to picking 5 pokemon and 6 movesets for a team really was the lesser of two evils. I wonder if similar metas have manifested have been normalized in other generations, particularly as they started adding more tiers.
@@Dinlek i mean in gen 2 the variety was much more limited
@@whydoiexist2180 Yeah, fair facts. It's hard to imagine something tanky and versatile enough to fit unpunished in every team with the new coverage moves alone.
Hypothetically, are there Ubers in recent generations strong enough to be 100% picked? I could imagine an analogous situation where there's something in NU that dominates the tier but would be useless in UU, so there's nowhere to really put it.
@@Dinlek Snorlax can run multiple sets still. Restalk, curse, belly drum or lovely kiss are a few that came to mind. Its not the exact same pokemon on every team
Snorlax is actually the best pokemon in the game period. Not even Ubers can compete with his power and versatility.
You know pokemon
I feel Mewtwo, Lugia and maybe Mew and Celebi are still better than Snorlax but barely.
@@tootsie_ In actual GSC Ubers only Mew duos are considered anywhere close to Lax
Lugia have this thing that reads "its weak to Electric" that severely limit it
@@tootsie_ Celebi is generally understood (unless there was a major meta shift I missed) to be worse than Snorlax along with Ho-Oh
@@tootsie_ Celebi and Ho-Oh are not very good in the tier, Lugia is very good but has drawbacks and both Mewtwo and Mew are excellent (though for slightly different reasons) but Snorlax is S+ in viability, it's still the best pokemon in the game
GSC Snorlax is a reminder that Pokémon get banned for making a metagame unhealthy and no longer fun to play in, rather than for being overpowered; there’s a strong argument for it being the most powerful Pokémon even in GSC Ubers, let alone in OU
there's no argument for it being the strongest gen 2 ubers pokemon, it is the strongest ubers pokemon
from what i know the reason snorlax was never banned was because smogon wasn't around back then the sams way it is now, i mean even in gen 3 the only non main legend that were banned were mew, deoxys forms and latios and latias, it was only in gen 4 where they started doing more bans because of things such as centralisation, at least that's what i know from what i've seen.
@@zander2758 Technically, the ban train started in gen 3 with Wobuffet (but that was in great part because in gen 3, if two Wobuffet with leftovers faced off against one another (without Sandstorm) then the battle could literally never end, so they banned it to avoid that (it was already insanely strong without that ofc, but that little tidbit just meant that they banned it just to be safe)
Nah, it's unbanned because gen 1and 2 OU are essentially legacy format. With modern standard Snorlax would be banned, so would be Zapdos (Is considered better than Lugia in Ubers); Raikou might be fine considering it has real weaknesses. Then the meta would change significantly because 70% of teams lost 2 members. That kind of drastic change they don't want to do it despite the potential rewards. I'm curious on how that meta would be if there wasn't 2 forced slots.
@@sephikong8323 you are correct, i completely forgot about wob and whynaut when i mad emy comment lol.
Rest/Sleep Talk is also obscenely busted in gen 2, as you healed back up to full using Rest while asleep. It was such a dumb choice of mechanics lmao
@@AwesomeHairo My point was that there was considerably less drawback to it in gen 2. With something like Double-Edge/Curse/Rest/Sleep Talk Snorlax, your random option is between damage, buff, and heal. During this time, you're also immune to status damage and are able to boost past everything besides Ghost-types (and the occasional Steel or Rock-type). On something as fat as Snorlax, that's incredibly potent, and it's a viable strategy for the big guy.
Meanwhile the sleep counter reset in gen 5 and the weirdness of sleep talk interacting with the sleep counter in gen 3 makes sleepTalk way less viable in those gens (the gen 3 was discovered relatively recently and then implemented to simulators, so a lot of classic RestTalk sets arent that good anymore)
@@AwesomeHairo Meaning its no skill xD
The skill part in gens 1 and 2 is knowing when to take your chances to get the better and most reasonably achievable results
@@amberhernandez yeah and snorlax can sort of afford to fire off random shots until it hits a target considering nothing can really kill it lol
IIRC, I've heard that the best way to get an overall idea of a Pokemon's general bulk is adding its base HP to either Defense to gauge physical bulk or Sp. Def to gauge special bulk. Adding Snorlax's 160 base HP to its base 110 Sp. Def gets you to 270, and 160 + 65 gets you to 225. For perspective, Toxapex's HP (50) + Defense (152) = 202, and HP (50) + Sp. Def (142) = 192. We can test out this theory by running some damage calcs where both Snorlax and Toxapex take the same neutral physical hit from the same Pokemon, then another neutral special hit from the same Pokemon. If the theory is right, we should see Snorlax and Toxapex take similar damage from the physical hit, but Snorlax takes far less from the special hit than Toxapex. In this simple experiment, I chose Jolly Banded Weavile's Knock Off and Timid Specs Latios's Dragon Pulse as the sources of damage, and Snorlax and Toxapex were both EV'd and natured to take these hits as best as possible.
Snorlax:
- 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 211-249 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 141-166 (26.9 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Toxapex:
- 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Toxapex actually ends up the victor on the physical side, though only by peanuts, while Snorlax easily takes the Dragon Pulse much better than Pex, meaning that this general bulk gauge puts more emphasis on the Def/Sp. Def than HP, but the general idea still stands. Of course, Toxapex has lots of other factors that make it a better wall, such as better defensive typing, reliable recovery + Regenerator, and better support moves; ultimately, there's more to how good a Pokemon is at its job than just base stats. Still, it's important to recognize the role base stats play, and just how beefy Snorlax is, especially back in Gen 2, where no EVs meant all of your stats could be maxed out at no cost. And then you throw in things like two perfect setup moves in Drum and Curse, strong STAB, a diverse movepool with great coverage and support options, a decent, but not reliable, recovery that heals all HP and status, etc., and you can see why Snorlax was such a big boy back then. It wasn't unbeatable by any means. Certain sets get walled by certain Pokemon, Rest can be exploitable, it can get kaboomed on, etc., but it was just really good at what it did. And to think I was in the middle of writing a research paper when I got the notification for this video. I don't even play GSC. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
this was a really fun comment to read :) thank you for sharing!!
Honestly, with this level of explanation and thoroughness, I think you're research paper is gonna be mint LMAO
I’ve never heard about adding HP to defenses to access bulk. That’s very useful
you basically said "more hp and def stat is better" in the most unecessarily convoluted way possible
Also, it takes 0 damage from choice specs, max special attack gengar's shadow ball. Pretty impressive.
Is amazing to me how different gen 2 could have been if Taunt was introduced there instead of in gen 3.
Only common mons who would run it would be Gengar, and maybe Nidoking or Skarm. and remember it only last 1 turn in gen3
While Snorlax helps keep the Gen 2 OU meta from becoming overrun with powerful offensive sweepers like Zapdos and Raikou, the real reason why it's not banned is because Lax has 4-moveslot syndrome, CurseLax can't hit everything at once with it's one coverage move of choice. If you run earthquake you'll hit steel-types, Golem, and Rhydon, but you then get walled by Skarmory. If you run flamethrower or thunderbolt, it's reversed, you get Skarm but then Golem and Rhydon wall you.
On top of that, running one of those coverage moves alongside Body Slam or Double-Edge on CurseLax also means you're forgoing sleep talk, which means you're passive while resting.
Funnily enough since you mentioned how only the Ubers are better than snorlax, snorlax is actually considered the best Pokémon in Ubers still and is ranked higher on the VR
The reason Snorlax has a 50% win rate is because every team needs one at every time.
I mean, if it's on literally every team then of course it's win rate will only be 50%.
Its win rate is 50% because half of people win, and half of people lose.
0:10 so uh, Gen 2 snorlax has a track record of being the literal best pokemon in *Ubers*
let's just, put that into perspective
before anyone asks why the ebst Ubers mon would be allowed in OU, people have tried a snorlax-less GSC OU and the tier deadass becomes unfun to play
Are u shitting me that’s hilarious. Why specifically though. why was Snorlax’s absence so detrimental to the game
so does just breaking down the wall between OU and Ubers in Gen 2 still fun or do you just end up being forced into the team of Snorlax, Ho-Oh, Celebi, Lugia, Mewtwo, Mew? Not that I'd complain about having a Celebi on my team, favourite legendary and all, but... well I had to ask.
@@StarshadowMelody i mean that'd just be ubers. people have tried ou but with celebi and ho-oh (the worst ubers, definitely worse than lax). that metagame is ridiculously stally.
@@StarshadowMelody I think nearly all Ubers teams include Mew, Mewtwo, and Snorlax, but Lugia, Celebi, and Ho-Oh not as much. Lugia is used often with a curse set, Celebi is used pretty much just on stall with a cleric set, and Ho-Oh has 4-moveslot syndrome and suffers from not having good physical STABs, which limits it greatly (it doesn’t learn any good flying type moves, and its Fire STAB goes off of its lower special attack and doesn’t work with Curse; also, keep in mind that these guys are still very powerful and viable in the Ubers tier)
@@dinglepuss8594 Don't quote me on any of this, I'm no expert on this, but I believe what happens is that Zapdos and Raikou become extremely dominant, and the only real way to deal with them was Blissey, who just sits there and doesn't do anything. Not to mention a lack of something that hits hard as Snorlax isn't ideal for offensive teams. Pretty much, GSC without Snorlax becomes even more of what everyone already thinks GSC is
0:09 Snorlax is actually ranked as the best in GSC Ubers as well, even above the legends and mythicals
No Mew Two absolutely destroys lax with submission but Mew Two made every Pokémon his bitch at that time.
GSC Snorlax is a reason why I always question why people feel the need to ban something immediately instead of just letting the meta develop. I definitely agree that it holds the meta together
What does it mean to “hold a meta together”?
Like, do you mean banning snorlax would make other pokemon overpowered and cause more bans?
@@JustButton Yes, exactly that
@@JustButton without Lax GSC becomes even more offensive (yes GSC is offensive) and it turns into a real "gotcha" game of hyper offensive sweepers with no real checks.
BKC has done a whole hour long video on Lax i recommend watching that.
@@inkie_the_silly_squid I doubt there would be any Pokémon on Gen 2 OU that would replace the 95%+ usage rate of Snorlax. Yes other mons would be able to shine without it being there but I doubt Zapdos or Raikou would be 95% in usage.
the thing is that chance never happened. Smogon started in gen 3 and gen 2 wasnt taken seriously until years later, by the time people truly started playing the tier competitively snorlax already established itself as indispensable
One big thing you miss in this video: Sleep Talk. In only Gen 2 if Sleep Talk choose Rest they gonna restore his full hp again whitout having the problem of giving turns like today's Rest Talk does.
On Lax this is important bc is the only form of sustain Lax has outside of Leftovers and in Gen 2 Rest Talk was as his peak
1:33 am vibes. thanks for the video!
I like how pre gen 3 Normal type was so bonkers, that it necessitated a Normal Resist. Not just steel types and ghost types, but also Rock types (rock being a type that usually isn't great defensively in later gens). God, I love broken normal types.
"it's not the stat total that matters, it's the stat distribution"
GameFreak forgets this with some of their pokemon
*Cries in Arcanine*
@GACHI On one hand you are correct (though my inner competitive side cries at the fact).
On the other hand, there are some Pokemon you would think are intended for great things based on their stats, in-game treatment, etc.
As a completely arbitrary example, look at Guzzlord. In terms of overall stats, it's basically a minor Legendary (same BST as the Tapus). And in the games, it's basically treated as a threat on par with Legendary Pokemon, being part of some characters' back stories.
But if you try using it online, you'll realize that it's competitive usage is average at best (NU in competitive Sun/Moon). And there are all sorts of reasons for this. Guzzlord would easily be more dangerous if it traded away 50 of its HP points for more Speed points, would be stronger if some of that Special Attack was just Attack, and it would be better all around if it had even some better recovery or HP draining options to combine with its incredible HP.
Same applies to a lot of Legendaries. You'd think they'd be at least decent because of their high stats and in-game status, but then they end up being average or worse. Articuno, Entei, Stakataka, and the Regi families are all also examples.
One of my favourite mons has an amazing design, great moveset and a decent base stat TOTAL...
Can I get an F for Claydol.
@@PalladinPoker At least its pretty good in gen 3 OU
You may not like it, but this is what peak physical performance looks like.
Snorlax was in fact so much bulkier compared to everything else at the time, that the only attack that could OHKO it without a crit was an opposing Snorlax's STAB Self Destruct. Maximized EVs were insane.
0:07 actually, snorlax is ranked above every uber in the ubers viability rankings. it's the best pokemon in gsc lol
Also worth mentioning sleeptalk rest still heals you, this makes Snorlax have extra reliable recovery
I found your channel recently and I love your "here's why" series. Even as someone who has never played pokemon competitively, I think your videos are really entertaining and educational.
I like how it’s used on every team and it’s win rare is 50% but really it’s a 100% win rate at the same time.
When something is on every team, it is statistically forced to have a 50% winrate
A Video about why Zygarde was banned in Gen 7 & 8 but Not Gen 6 could be a fun video to see from you in your style.
didn't gen 7 release the complete form for Zygarde? Iirc, that's the case and modern day Smogon doesn't like complex bans so they ban Zygarde entirely
The glaring lack of Thousand Arrows. It really is that good of a move.
Despite having access to Glare + Substitute, without Thousand Arrows, there was pretty much no reason to use it over Garchomp, thus it was in UUBL limbo for gen 6.
If I remember correctly, I don’t think zygarde yet had access to thousand arrows in gen 6
@@arcangel4242 yeah, it had thousand waves which is vastly inferior
Probably because of Complete form and Thousand Arrows ignoring Flying/Levitate immunity, combined with Dragon Dance (and even Coil). Neither Complete nor 1000 Arrows existed in Gen 6 (well, Arrows _did_ but it was unused outside of Metronome).
I remember watching a friend battle in Gen 2, it ended in a stalemate. Umbreon vs Snorlax. Struggle war started and nothing could be done. They healed more than the damage recoil received and taken. So it was a tie. It also took a few hundred turns.
This is a fairly rare occurrence in gen 2 tbh. Actually, for most of the 2010s, offense was dominant, with the boom team taking over and being the most popular team
thank you for your rather quick manner of speaking, your one of the very few creators I don't speed up
actually snorlax is the #1 pokemon in ubers too
That's hilarious to me. In a good way, of course.
3:05 The ultimate being:
*Eduardo Carapinga and his Acorazado*
The thing I love the most about GSC Snorlax is just how customizable it is. There's so many different moveset combinations you can make to support your team and throw your opponent off. A favorite of mine that I ran a long time ago was Lovely Kiss, Double Edge, Thunder, Selfdestruct. Caught many greedy Cloysters trying to come in and spike.
An important part of the skilltesting part of Gen 2 meta is that Snorlax needs to be really careful in choosing its moves to cover threats. Defensive sets could find themselves halted by dedicated PP stallers such as Umbreon or Miltank or be forced out by Misdreavus. Offensive sets are more liable to be worn down or revenge killed by strong attackers like Raikou and Machamp. It's the best Pokémon but the rest of the OU tier carries tools to threaten it.
To be fair, the reason everything carries tools to beat it is precisely because it's so good.
@@natnew32 Even if snorlax didn't exist, people would probably still bring those tools because they're used for more than *just* answering snorlax, even if Snorlax is the most important target.
@@emmetstanevich2121 Some of them, yes, but I remember smogon's description saying that snorlax's checks were so common precisely because snorlax is so common. I don't have any examples though.
Whoa was I first?? Love the content! Keep it up!
This the kinda content I want I only play gen 1-6 random matches on showdown lol
Haha, love that you take suggestions. Saw a comment asking about why Snorlax wasn't banned in gen2 on one of your most recent vids and was kind of curious myself. Well, here we are!
I love how it has a 50% WR because its on 100% of all teams
I’ve been thinking about jumping on gen 2 meta for a week or two lol your videos are inspiring
Another factor is that sand isn't common and therefore it can receive the benefits of leftovers unlike in Gen 3
4:12 that's a funny looking shinx
I thought he said that for a sec too, but it was jynx
Isn't the consensus that Snorlax is even better than a couple Uber mons in Gen 2?
Better than 5 of the Ubers. Yes, Snorlax is better than Mew and Mewtwo.
0:08 it's still better than all of those Pokémon even lol
Great analysis video! Thanks for uploading! Looking forward to more content like this from you!
Gen 2 Rules:
Rule 1: No duplicates
Rule 2: Clauses
Rule 3: Legends/Mythics are banned
*Rule 4: You must use Snorlax*
*Rule 4.1: Oh yeah, even in Ubers*
Remove dupes clause and have all snorlax team
Snorlax is actaully debateably better than celebi, mew, mewtwo, lugia and ho-oh
You know snorlax is the most overpowered king of any format when you can't even ban it.
I'm super interested in a Theory Thursday video on why banning Snorlax makes GSC OU less fun to play. You briefly mention in this video that the top spots are taken over by the likes of Zapdos, Tyrannitar and others, but intuitively, it makes more sense to me that having a more diverse list of top threats in OU would make for _more_ interesting gameplay, not less. It doesn't seem healthy for a Pokemon to be so good that not having it on your team is practically equivalent to surrendering. I'm certainly not trying to say you're wrong, I'm just ignorant and would like to know why Snorlax is healthy for GSC
I believe this has been done before for GSC and it honestly wasn't very good without Lax around.
without Lax, the crown for best Normal type in the game is given to either Miltank or Blissey, both of whom use Heal Bell as a part of their sets. This makes the game even slower than it already is and way less fun to play
freezai the description says gen 1 instead of gen 2
(edit)thank you freezai the description now says gen 2 instead of gen 2
Love the thumbnail
I forget that this is surprising for people who aren't into competitive pokemon
Love these! Thank you so much for doing it man :)
Snorlax is much healthier for the metagame than people realize, cause it's best sets are either bulky sweepers or support enablers which both help offense shine in gsc. Also the best way to kill a snorlax isn't to use skarm you're better off just booming it
What if Flame Charge behaved like Rapid Spin?
Post Gen 8, the moves are effectively the same except Rapid Spin removes hazards. Thematically, it doesn't make much sense, but it'd still be cool.
Edit: By extension, what if they introduced more hazard removal moves to weaker types; for example, a Poison type move that melts away hazards?
Snorlax causes a lot of creativity too with sets. Not only sets on itself but on other members as well.
And for those who think that not using Snorlax is creative, no, it is not.
the most wtf snorlax counter is probably growl miltank
In gen two, Snorlax is better than Celebi and Ho-oh. Change my mind.
Ho-Oh was actually the worst Uber in gen 2 lol.
Another thing about rest talk is that in gen 2, getting rest when you sleep talk will not fail.
4:31 Has anyone actually experimented with a Snorlax-less GSC OU, or is that just theoretical?
It'd be interesting to see such an experiment; would the tier fall apart with the glutton, like people fear, or would it be fine - after an initial shakeup, true enough, but fine afterwards?
Yes, there have been Snorlax-less tournaments. Without Snorlax, the electrics become overpowered. So ban them too? Well then something else will fill their place
@@jopodevine doesn't it also become really stally because snorlax is one of the only things that can break things like skarm/bliss
@@jopodevine no thy dont and wtf does "rhey will replace them too" mean lol waht you have a infinite supply of 130 base special attack electrics in gen 2?
@@C3l3bi1 no obviously he means something else would become too overpowered. Dont act like a moron to find criticisms you just come off as a moron
@@C3l3bi1 there's everparalysing 30% chance thunder from zapdos ,raikou, and even Nidoking. All of them only really only walled by blissey. After they got banned, umbreon and bulky water stall became too strong and might got banned too. Then what? Alakazam and jynx domination? It became even more of a mess.
So in a nutshell, Snorlax is basically Yujiro Hanma in disguise
Im guessing the reasons Snorlax isnt banned in gen 2 are the same ones as why Meinfoo isnt banned un gen 8 Little Cup, though I would still like a video on that topic
I had a gen2 game that started in a snorlax mirror
50 turns and 10 minutes later we actually started playing the game
Snorlax is #1 in Ubers too. Yes, above Mewtwo and Lugia.
"Aside from [lists ubers]"? Dude, Lax is better than all of those pokemon in GSC
Can you do a video on why Landours-T has not been banned in gen 6 and especially gen 7 where it was so versatile and oppressive everything you did was based around avoiding it and getting it dead immediately
That seems like a pretty big misunderstanding of why lando t is so used
@@stivaoblonskystan nah it’s more for gen 7 once it got defog. Once it got that it had 4-5 viable sets that opened up a diverse meta game apart from Lando-T being an integral part of each team. I just didn’t get why it wasn’t banned. Then again I’m a 1600 player so my opinion on the matter is skewed by low ladder bias
@@mrexcadrill8474 its just slappable on a lot of teams and it can fill a lot of roles... offensive lando-t lacks a lot of bulk while defensive cannot apply pressure as much meaning you have ways to take advantage of it all the time
"flareon next week"
just happened to look at the right time, i appreciate the easter egg (on easter too), unless youre not gonna do it in which case im dumb
I believe Snorlax is the best in Ubers, too. So not even the banned from OU mons are better
This pokemon won me a gen 2 tounament back in the day. Super op
I really like the queen comparison. It's far and away the most powerful piece of your team and the scariest one to your opponent. Naturally, it's a huge target. Play it right, and you have a pretty good shot of winning. Play it wrong, and odds are you'll lose. And besides, if you hate Snorlax so much, you can always play in UU.
what if there's a game mode where we build teams with only 1 pokemon from each tier
I’m curious what is better? Curselax vs curse lugia in gen 2. I’d say curselax since only 2 Pokémon threatens you and that is snorlax and machamp. But lugia is way more bulky but has more weaknesses
Snorlsx is actually the best gen 2 mon so I'd go with him. Not to mention lugia is weak to electric
this might be the greatest thumbnail that uses the red arrow ever
Snorlax is also the best mon in Ubers
3:05 your opponent is literally called Edward Cockhead lmao
If I remember correctly one of the issues in gen 2 is that if you sleep talk rest, you will restore your health to full.
I didn't authorize my likeness to be used in the thumbnail nor being called out like that, smh
I love the chess analogy to Gen 2 Snorlax
people saying landorus is a problem clearly know nothing about competitive history.
I noticed a curious fact. I learned in one of your videos that Golem went from OU to NU in Gen1 when they discovered Body Slam should not paralise Normal type pokemon causing a butterfly effect that led to explosion becoming less useful, and thus Golem became worst than Rhydon in every aspect. However, in the list you've shown Golem seems to be one of the most used pokemon in Gen 2. How did it dethrone Rhydon back? Was it the phys/spec split, or explosion becoming useful again?
rapid spin
@@FreezaiPokemon wow, interesting lol
I try as much as possible to win without Snorlax.. but this is a tough endeavor indeed. however.. every single team build has 2-3 (usually 3) pokes that can deal with Snorlax. an absolute must.
Ive been playing gen 2 ubers/ou with a good friend. Ive used snoelax, but used him wrong. Thanks. Also he missed several hits leading to a 0.0325% chance
Garay Oak's nicknames are BASED!!
being the one other human on the planet that knows who the opponent’s pokemon were referencing at the beginning of the video
Can you tell why pawniard got banned in NFE but not in LC?
I just feel really strange of why, he didn't got banned in LC too?
Would it even be Gen 2 OU without Lax? While a Lax-less gen 2 would be a fun distraction, GSC OU as it is is a fun metagame because of Snorlax wars.
Just my opinion here, but I would honestly rather if you put all of your content from both channels on just one channel. Only because you upload so much so I have to check in both of your channels a lot, and it would be easier if it was all in one place.
Also more videos = faster growth
It would be funny for you to see how far you could get in gen 2 ou ladder without snorlax
Its so funny how the best Pokemon only has a 50% winrate because everyone has one
But what do you have for a well-played Snorlax?
my own Snorlax kekw
perish trap Missy is the best check/counter to Curselax
Roar and Whirlwind would be used to counter Curse Snorlax, surely.
Yes, but those Pokémon would need to be able to, you know, take a hit from a boosted Snorlax if it wants to phase it out consistently. This more or less boils down to Steel-type phazers like Steelix and Skarmory; other Roar users like Raikou, Vaporeon, and Suicune don't fare that well
and Perish trap Missy completely walls mono-attacking Curselax
The thumbnail 😂😭😂😭
I remember trying to play Pokemon battles online and i picked a snorlax and i forget the rest. I thought it was a good set. Was i wrong, my snorlax got ko and i couldn't even take out 1 Pokemon. Competitive is super hard. And yet i used curse snorlax and their snorlax beat mine.
If Snorlax is the only answer to overwhelming threats such as Tyrannitar, Nidoking, and Zapdos, then couldn't the solution be to just ban them as well?
well lets fucking ban everyone to Ubers then rofl
1) it’s not the only answer to those, and on a well-constructed GSC team (not counting cheese like baton pass) it won’t be. It’s more that by virtue of having a snorlax automatically on a team, you have a built-in contingency should your other checks get overwhelmed or haxed to death.
2) banning pokemon in earlier gens is fundamentally different from doing so in later gens due to the lower pool of pokemon available. Taking any one of those out would have significant ripple effects that just aren’t worth the return.
I've never understood how a pokemon that sees 96% usage in OU and is #1 on the Ubers viability rankings isn't an uber tier pokemon. Is there an actual reason why it's allowed, or is this just another "smogon loves stall" situation
Ubers is not like other tiers and doesnt depend on usage its oubl if you think about it
Its actually one of the things keeping gen 2 from being stally. And i think theyve tried no-lax ou but it was so stally cuz it became raikou/zapdos vs blissey shit that no one wanted to play it. Snorlax legitimately makes the meta game healthier.
It actually made umbreon and miltank can't stall on everyone's face while maintaining defensive utility against otherwise broken raikou, zapdos, Kratos even nidoking.
banger thumbnail king
#FreezaiQuestion
I noticed a non negligible percent of Zapdos use Utility Umbrella in VGC Series 12. Any idea why that is?
He covers Smogon formats, no VGC.
Ask Moxie Boosted instead, he’s basically the VGC equivalent of Freezai.
@@N12015 I was hoping he'd or someone else here might know because this channel would attract people who are into competitive Pokemon. Thanks for the heads up though!
@@Rarest26 I've posted a comment under the latest video, thanks for the advice!
Midnight posting baby
Is Celebi actually 2 good for gen 2 OU?
01:56 The nickname...
Can we mention the opponent who named his Pokémon after dungeons from PMD Sky?
Imagine if close ocmbat was never invented
Despite the analogy with chess queen, the truth is they've gone too far with Snorlax in Gen 2. It's perfectly possible to turn him into a exceptional Pokemon without breaking the whole GSC metagame. Here are some changes that I believe that could have balanced Gen 2 mechanic a litte bit.
1. There is absolutely no reason why Snorlax's stats should be as high as Gyarados' one (540). Give him a 480 total stats and it's good enough. As none of Gen 1 Pokemon had his OG stats changed, only his SpAtt and SpDef would be changed.
SpAtt: ~65~ → 50
SpDef: ~110~ → 65
It might seem too harsh towards him at first, but there's a good explanation:
• In Gen 1, Snorlax's stats (430) was lower than Tauros' ones (450) and he was still among the best 5 Pokemons back in the day. It's good to remind Tauros' Special stats in RBY (70) was slightly higher than Snorlax's (65). Despite it, even the likes of Psychic's Gengar (Sp 130) couldn't 4OHKO Snorlax. So don't let this nerf fool you. Snorlax would still be a wall hard to be knock down thanks to his massive HP. The small decrease in SpAtt would prevent Lax's Fire Blast to OHKO necessary threats like Skarmory and Forretress.
2. Almost everything can learn Curse, technique way overused back in the day. Restricting it for few Pokemons could improve the overall experience for the GSC metagame. Obviously, the best way to avoid Snorlax running wild is to deny him learning it. It means the only legal way to bring Curselax back is through sweeping or Metronome (good luck lol). And I tell you in advance that very few sweepers would access Curse - maybe some Pokemons that belong to UU tier, like Girafarig and Mr. Mime, giving them more reasons to be somehow considered.
3. No Lovely Kiss for Snorlax. His movepool was already very vast. By the way, he isn't sexy enough.
4. Therefore, the wildest card left for Snorlax is his combo Belly Drum + Rest (+ Sleep Talk). Unlike Curse, it makes sense he learns all these moves due to his natural demeanour (fat and sleepy Pokemon). As his OG stats weren't modified, technically nothing was changed here, except he becomes vulnerable to special attackers, which is not a bad thing, Drumlax can still wipe out a whole team on his own with little consequencess. How can we turn Drumlax into a force to be reckoned without breaking the metagame or defying logic? It's a little risky, but some alterations in GSC metagame might find a interesting balance here:
• (4.1) Rest would recover 75% of HP instead 100%.
• (4.2) Rest cannot be reactivated via Sleep Talk. If Rest was randomly chosen, the user just lost the turn.
• (4.3) Belly Drum can still take 1/2 of maximum HP down even if its Attack stats is at maximum. It would just fail only if the user would faint in the process.
Not necessarily all these changes must be applied, perhaps just one of them would work fine, but they definitely help to make Drumlax less unwinnable. The first option (4.1) lessens Rest effectiveness. It would still heal more HP than Recover variations, still viable thanks to Snorlax's great HP, but it prevents Drumlax's Rest becoming so annoyingly broken. Combining it with the second one (4.2) could definitely push Snorlax down from the god tier since he couldn't heal himself for, at least, 2 turns. And, even if he uses Rest right after, he may not recover all his HP depending on opposing fire power. The third option (4.3) would make the combo Belly Drum + Rest + Sleep Talk way more risky for Snorlax's users since there is 25% of chance to this combo goes south. As Gengar and Misdreavus are secure counters for this Drumlax variant, maybe this option isn't as necessary as the two formers.
As well as Snorlax's necessary nerf, there are other changes that I believe to help find a nice balance to the metagame:
1. Skarmory's main role in GSC metagame is to hold strong physical Normal type Pokemons, like Tauros and Snorlax. As this metal bird is well-known to be a answer to Lax, I would increase slightly its Att stats to +10. Why? Because it would guarantee Skarmory's Drill Peck could finish Drumlax during Belly Drum ritual one-to-one before Snorlax activates Rest move.
2. For metagame's sake, Golem is supposed to be a threat for the two remaining S tier Pokemons: Zapdos and Raikou. However, due to their high SpAtt along with Hidden Abilities in contrast to Golem's mediocre SpDef and bad combo type, he still suffers in this department. Considering he belongs to tradevolution clan, all of them sharing similar total stats in spite of different characteristics. Just give all of them a sort of buff and benefit Golem more to make up for his bad type, affecting proportionally their family line too. He would still fall apart against common Water and Grass types, but could resist against users with non STAB moves, giving him a chance to inflict damage.
Golem: 485 → 515 (increase its SpDef from 65 to 85 and increase its Att from 110 to 120)
Alakazam: 495 → 505 (increase its SpDef from 85 to 100)
Gengar: 500 → 500 (powerful enough in GSC)
Machamp: 505 → 510 (increase its SpDef from 85 to 90)
3. Gen 2 brings a decent Poison type move, Sludge Bomb, but some types still lack a good move. Maybe it would be interesting to modify some stuff:
A example is Ancient Power, move that looks like quite imponent at first. It makes little sense it is weaker than Rock Slide and HP Rock. As it lacks PP and is rather uncommon to find, increase its power to somewhere between 80 and 100. HP Rock may be used by many, but Ancient Power is unique. Some Pokemons like Aerodactyl would definitely take advantage of it.
Could you talk about regigigas and neutralizing gas wheezing galar in doubles? When neutralizing gas was first announced that was a huge deal but I really never heard anything come of it.
1. This isn't about doubles.
2. It was used plenty. Wolfe Glick has had videos where he's used the combination.