It actually goes below 50% officially. Because in rare circumstances you can win without revealing your lax, so your opponent lost with Snorlax, but you didn't win with it officially, even though you had it unrevealed.
@@jimmicrackhead12 100% appearance rate on winning teams, but since it's also on the losing team you get a 100% appearance on losing teams. The chance of a team with Snorlax winning is 50%.
My favorite thing about gen 2 Snorlax is that in the special split, they nerfed the 2 other members of the OU big 3 hard, some of the hardest nerfs ever, Chancy and Tauros both had their special attack gutted. Snorlax got to keep its special attack but got a massive buff to its special defense making it way better. Why? Nobody knows.
An excellent entry to learning about Gen2 OU. I learned so much in this video about what's important in Gen2, how Sleep Talk and Rest work, and what the hazard situation looks like. The normal damaging moves comparison is especially fascinating: Return is like Earthquake, Body Slam gives up a bit of power for status chance, and DoubleEdge trades a side effect for Fire Blast tier damage.
That Chess analogy with the Queen being like Snorlax really helped me realize the need for such a beast to be allowed in the meta. It's like a switch was flipped and I went from thinking it's ridiculous to seeing the balance of being overpowered
@@geodude671 no Snorlax is absolutely unfair, so much so that you basically NEED Snorlax on your team or you're at an extreme disadvantage. The analogy with the queen just emblazons the idea that both sides have access to such a powerful piece/Pokémon, and that it's more about how you utilize your Queen/Snorlax to gain an advantage in the otherwise level playing field that is Gen 3 OU/Ubers
I always found weird that in GSC (which is basically RBY2) every single RBY monster got nerfed, but Snorlax. Chansey lost its ability to deal damage back, Tauros lost it's special coverage options, Alakazam lost its ability to take hits on the special side, Exeggutor became much worse... But Snorlax got a freaking 50 point spdef boost. While being arguably #2 o #3 best RBY pokemon. No wonder it became broken. Off topic, I always thought how GSC would play without leftovers. Max EVs + Leftovers beeing the only good item is what makes the tier slow (not stall, just slow)
@@Wandermidget Just like how they adapted to stall in gen 6 by... BANNING mega sableye. Nobody wants to go down that rabbit hole of pain only to ban more pokemon.
You should do a deeper dive into Snorlax in Ubers because it’s actually super interesting how it warps that tier too. Like Mewtwo dedicating a slot to have a chance against it for DPunch/Barrier/Self Destruct/Submission
Snorlax was my favourite Pokémon in Gen 1… at least until I circled around to the other side of Pallet Town and found a little mess of seaweed wearing Converse sneakers, haha.
It was also big in gen 3 ubers, though middling in gen 3 OU because it absolutely hates ttar’s sand which is ultra common in OU but far less common in ubers
I think Gen 3 also has much better physically offensive stuff: strong pokemon like Metagross and Salamence, staple moves like brick break and dragon dance, and of course choice band.
@@vladfi1 yeah Snorlax really hates facing the much larger pool of fighting types, especially since TTar being the best pokemon means almost ever battle will have sand and many teams will have fighting types just for TTar
@@doomfan1359 Not just those 2, but other special attackers in general-Snorlax is really the only thing that can blanket check all the scary special attackers, while also putting out its own offence and keeping the pace up.
Snorlax, despite being the best Pokémon in Ubers, is allowed in GSC OU, because it provides a stabilizing presence by keeping special attackers in check, while still being manageable in that tier.
It is not the best in Ubers. But somehow Gen 2 is currently being played by people with bad strategies. Snorlax can use curse, sleep talk and rest and bodyslam. Those are all good moves against Non-Rock or Ghost types. Try using a Snorlax against a Gengar. Mewtwo 1 shots it. (Gengar) and dynamic punch combined with Substitute and if you want to curse deals with Snorlax. Then a move like Thunder for coverage...
@@romerobone6617 Mate, it bloody was. Snorlax had an absurdly versatile movepool, which could deal with Gengar (Who wasn't even all that at that point, Misdreavus was particularly preferable) or any Rock/Steel mon with both psychic and ground attacks (it had access to both psychic and earthquake) without even breaking a sweat. And even if he didn't, it's not any pokemon's job to come up with a proper answer for absolutely everything (which is why you have five other pokeballs in your pocket in the first place).
I feel like one of the factor's in snorlax's favor is the fact that it is so ubiquitous that you always know the enemy has one. In contrast, one of the effects dracovish had on gen 8 OU was that you pretty much needed to dedicate a teamslot to a defensive 'vish answer (which basically meant a water immunity,) but none of the pokemon used in that role are particularly good outside of it, so you had an environment where you needed to bring a pokemon for one matchup, that was pretty much a liability if dracovish didn't show up, but if you replace the "counter," then you risk getting 6-0'd by dracovish when it DOES show up. Snorlax isn't even close to the level of "unwallable" dracovish reaches, its answers are pokemon that you'd already be using anyways, and you never have to think about "will my snorlax answers be relevant in my next ladder match" becasue the answer will pretty much always be "yes". Also, there's the little detail that snorlax doesn't immediately threaten another snorlax in the mirror match, so even if you aren't sure what set the other snorlax is running, your own snorlax can usually buy you enough time to suss out its moveset, and determine which of your pokemon will best answer it (unless it booms on your snorlax, but that still requires them to sacrifice their snorlax.)
The thing is people seem to forget Smogon isn’t about balance. It’s a for fun format. Rules are more to optimize fun. That’s why so many “balance” decisions seem stupid
@@barongeoffrey75 because nobody called a vote. I’m not defending Smogon I was actually explaining why their logic is spotty. I’m not the person you should be asking sorry.
I'd have mentioned some of the Pokemon that have viability because of Snorlax. Charm Umbreon and Growl Miltank wall out Snorlax forever since their Attack-debuffing moves severely out-PP Curse. Misdreavus is the only pure-Ghost-type in the game, and while it's about as bulky as Gengar, it has a better time vs Snorlax thanks to not being EQ-weak, and can use Perish Song to force out Curselax. Similar to OG Porygon walling Lax in RBY, Porygon2 does the same this gen with Curse + 32PP Recover. Vaporeon deserves a mention being one of the few SpA Pokemon that can beat Snorlax 1v1 thanks to Growth (an event move in Gen 2) + Acid Armor.
love gen 2! I can never decide if I like gen 2 or gen 3 the most. Part of why it's so underrated is people think it's the "stall" gen which isn't true (gen 6 mega sableye was true stall). The best way to describe gen 2 is like a game of chess. You're constantly pivoting and paying attention to your opponent and games are won by slowly driving them into a corner. One misstep and the game can end abruptly.
Idk what Gamefreak was thinking, giving a top 2 Pokemon in RBY (excluding the Mews) a big buff just couldn’t possibly go well. Except it actually did, Snorlax makes GSC OU so fun and unique
Plague von Karma released a video on it a while back, basically though it was the fact that gen 1 tauros was so powerful in the few official tournaments that they ended up reworking some things for the new games in hopes of nerfing it. For example, originally steel was no where as defensive of a typing and dark was actually weak to normal
While it's completely subjective, without Snorlax gen 2 OU would a much more stallier metagame that the one we have today. Most of the special attackers in the tier are checked by a single slot on your team. A slot in fact with a lot of set variety, Snorlax is a really versatile Pokémon in GSC, like TTar in ADV. Without it, gen 2 would be as boring as gen 8 for example, or some of the modern gen 4 OU. That's why even while Ho-oh and Celebi wouldn't be broken in OU (which would make Ho-Oh, in fact, the earliest box legendary to drop to OU), they will make the pace too slow, and therefore they're banned
Why do people think gen 8 is boring or stally? Like, i know it stayed for too much time as the current gen, but the meta itself is actually pretty nice
It kinda makes sense, actually. A bulky Pokemon with strong support options may be useful at times. Feralgatr being a physical Water type is obviously kinda bad, and Typhlosion doesn't have Eruption yet, so it's just a fast special/mix attacker. Idk if Charizard is better, but I doubt it's that good either.
@@shytendeakatamanoir9740 I can definitely see why a bulky dual screener with Synthesis is rather good in this metagame, it’s just that Meganium is that notoriously terrible starter and worse and basically every generation afterwards. As for Charizard, its definitely the best starter in Gen 2, only debatable on is Venusaur. It’s still not exactly OU (it’s BL) but it’s versatility and power makes it the best starter
Anytime i reset and reran the game, there were a few that would start to increase my stress level the moment they got summoned. Miltank and Snorlax. Damn tanks.
Honestly Mewtwo is kind of a weird counterpart to Snorlax in Ubers. They're both auto-includes, with Snorlax checking special threats and Mewtwo checking physical ones. They also both have set variety with one near mandatory move (Recover and Rest, respectively) and one boosting move that can be dropped (Barrier and Curse). It's a really interesting dynamic. GSC Ubers is a really fun tier.
I kinda hate how a mischievous trio keeps in hostage the entirety of a format. Snorlax is 100% uber material for how unpredictable it is and for how good its stats are. We keep it there since it's the only thing resembling a counter to Zapdos and Raikou. The rest of the format is occupied by very few mons having good synergy with those three. That's it, the rest gatekept out. Now that's already a Uber tier scenario. And you might call it chess, while it's funny since when I play chess I do not need to worry about things such as thunder luck, nailing desperate predicts, praying that Snorlax has a set not too troublesome for my team.
Finally, someone who talks my language. Gen 2 is indeed the worst OU meta, a meta everyone praises but no one plays due to Snorlax, and gets mocked if the confess as if it was a cult. If anything UBERS is better because Snorlax is barely better than Mew and Mewtwo. Also, doesn't everyone complain about focus blast? I'm sure Thunder is THE EXACT SAME THING. I just hate gen 2 competitive so much, is so boring, so luck-dependant and so overcentralized, with no one wanting to fix anything... kinda reminds me of gen 9 OU but replacing boring with frustrating.
@@N12015 Gen2 OU stands for Gen2 Ubers. Gen2UU has a lot of potential tbf: lots of variety, insane offensive options and mons with CLEAR weaknesses. But yeah, we do prefer RNG extravaganza.
The Belly Drum 'quirk' is due to a Gen 2 bug - the move wasn't coded correctly. It first raises Atk by two, _then_ checks current HP before doing the rest of the +2 Atk modifiers. In earlier in-dev versions of GS, Belly Drum originally only did half of _current_ HP, not maximum HP; the devs realised this would be too overpowered and exploitable and changed it to max. Oh, and the devs also thought Snorlax would be 'balanced' due to his low Def, too, not realising his massive HP sorta made up for it (and that Curse was a thing, along with RestTalk, and that Fighting moves are garbage until Gen 3/4).
I remember a comment that says something like this in FSG youtube on Snorlax If Snorlax is banned, Zapdos and Raikou absolutely dominate. If these two become banned, Suicune and Starmie dominates If Suicune and Starmid dominates, ground types, especially steelix dominates. Of course i agree to disagree, since i dont think zapdos and raikou will instantly be banned since things like Celebi will probably just be sent to OU. But then the metagame will be in a stalemate. The strongest physical attacker is gone, and Thick Club Marowak isnt strong enough to overpower Skamory, and doesnt have a good movepool and stats to try anything lax wants to do. Basically, both sides play a pp war, and switching around would prob be the best strat in the game (since leftovers isnt cancelled by anything except toxic, and toxic isnt really that good due to rest)
Big Yellow compared GSC Snorlax to the Medic from Team Fortress 2: insanely overpowered but their presence makes the game much better. And similarly, GSC OU without Snorlax would be an ACTUAL stallfest with Zapdos, Raikou, other Special Attackers, and Blissey running around, much like how how no Medic (and no Ubercharge) would just lead to stacking Engineers and Snipers becoming even more annoying to deal with.
And also if you didn't notice, your ogerpon video is blocked by Nintendo for showing too much Pokemon owned content even though your entire channel is like centred around pokemon (showdown good)
I still can't wrap my head around how Snorlax can be "healthy" for this meta. I've played *a lot* of Gen 2 (OU) back in the days, and every single match lasted almost hours. We're talking about 2-300 turns, even 400 some times. I've started running a lot of Snorlax-less teams, just to shake things up, and the only difference was that now I was losing in 2-400 turns.
Gen2 becomes a complete stallfest with blissey being the next best thing for special attackers, and said special attackers such as zapdos go on a wild murder spree if snorlax isnt there to check it
I hope they bring snorlax in gen 9 and add the ability unaware since it can't even wake up without a pokeflute, it will be a top tier mon for sure ou tier
Would you consider doing a video on gen 2 team structures where NOT running Snorlax can be optimal? (Not sure if these exist but the intro seemed to suggest they may.)
Not running Snorlax in gen 2 is called losing. The only time Snorlax isn't at 100% usage in a tournament is when people win a game with hax before revealing their lax.
@@michael_bettsThen no wonder why almost no one plays gen 2 OU. It's just a broken mess and not in the fun way like gen 1. Having to use every single time X slot is just boring for regular players because it limits teambuilding, despite what Smogon fans say.
@@N12015 tbh thats true, if people have to justify such an overwhelming presence in a tier by the fact that 'the tier would suck without it' maybe its just cause gen 2 ou is garbage
Not using Snorlax is not optimal in a competitive Gen 2 environment; it's essentially a noob trap. The whole metagame is accommodated to Snorlax's presence, and so, teams without Snorlax would be lacking in Snorlax's excellent role compression (similar to Landorus-T in later generations, but much more important). Teams without Snorlax are not advised in competitive play; they should be reserved for casual games.
@@kingpig8732 I mean, bans in OU didn't exist until gen 4, and no one who plays gen 2 wants to go back and ban Snorlax and completely change the metagame because they like the Snorlax metagame. Snorlax has a lot of different sets and options that play very differently, and several people have tried no Snorlax tournaments and the format is really bad, so you'd have to start banning a lot of mons Snorlax was holding back. The general sentiment is that we leave it how it is, it's kinda grandfathered in.
I forgot how versatile it is... i can immediately think of some niche sets that weren't explicitely shown... like combining Lovely Kiss and Belly Drum with Chesto Berry+Rest... or the Belly Drum Snore still dealing decent damage during Rest turns. If your opponent is not careful this monster can literally defeat them in its sleep... having said that this is a very great video presenting Gen 2 in the way it should be presented, thank you
Coming from someone who used to naively think that Snorlax should be banned for its overventralizing effect on the GSC metagame: Banning Snorlax from OU would have a huge cascading effect on the metagame, and not necessarily a positive one. Zapdos and Raikou would be way too strong if Snorlax got banned, causing Blissey to become more or less required on teams, which would cause a self-fulfilling prophecy where mons like Machamp lost their niche in chunking the best mon in the game -- Snorlax. Which, makes Blissey even stronger. If banning Lax gets Raikou/Zap banned, then just IMAGINE trying to deal with Suicune. Snorlax really glues the tier together.
Shout out gen 2 snorlax for checking gen 2 zapdos. Don’t know how you feel about gen 5, but interestingly enough that’s been the only generation where Zapdos been UU(so far, who knows what gen 9 dlc will do) and just a general explanation could be cool and act as a pseudo follow up to your gen 3 zapdos vid
i played back in the day and was pretty darn good. and i hated using Snorlax. my mindset was that he was a cheating pest, so a lot of my options revolved around phasing the bastard out quick or high physical assaults backed up by dual screens it was wild, but i was able to usually win games against Snorlax users because a lot of people still didnt jive with the idea (pre-NYPC) of using low special attack mons for coverage, like you show with Golem and Fire Blast. it was a strange time. also toxic/t-wave/sleep was rampant and even Snorlax got in the act later on. Gen 2 is fascinating to me even to this day, that and 386 are my favorite metagames ever
Usually gen 2 is a slower paced metagame, so the Snorlax usually takes damage from spikes and attacks over time until it can be taken out, though pokemon such as thick club marowak do quite well against it, because sword dance out paces curse and thick club already adds a huge boost to its attack
There's also the fact that snorlax is slow, and doesn't have reliable recovery outside of rest. If snorlax doesn't have sleep talk, then you can punish it when it tries to burn sleep turns. Even if it's a RestTalk set, the fact that the combo takes up two moveslots means that snorlax has to choose between a coverage move and a setup move (unless it wants to go without a STAB move)
Casually: Only every kid ever. Competitively: Yes... In Gen 1 Not stronger than Double Edge or Return by enough to justify the downside. If Rest, you want Sleep Talk and either a boosting move (Curse / Belly Drum) or a coverage move (Earthquake / Fire Blast / Thunder). If Selfdestruct, you want one of each or two coverage moves. Hyper Beam does nothing to help you get past Skarmory, Steelix, Golem, Rhydon, Gengar, Misdreavus, etc., while competing for a move slot with things that do. And the recharge turn is exploitable for a free Curse with one of the usual checks, or a free switch to Machamp or Marowak, or even a prediction-less Explosion with no fear you might switch out. Also, Curselax with Hyper Beam seems like it loses badly to Drumlax after boosting, beaming and KO-ing something, since the other lax drums on the recharge turn and then outspeeds.
In short every single weird game design and balance quirck and oversight just so happen to overlapp in a way that Snorlax can take advantage off to the fullest. Even things like the the fact that it has less physical defense than special isn't a big deal because there are almost no good physical moves. Nowadays we have moves above 100 bsp for every type, often for both physical and special moves. Back in gen 2, many Pokemon didn't even have a move that broke 90 bsp while also being STAB and the moves that could take advantage of that lower power defense, while being somewhat strong themselves can be counted on one hand.
I'm Hosting a $2000+ Gen 3 OU Tournament.
ruclips.net/video/3IicQnLUj1g/видео.html
is there anyway I could sign up
Favourite fact about gen 2 OU, Snorlax has a 50% win rate, because every game, a Snorlax win and loses
It actually goes below 50% officially. Because in rare circumstances you can win without revealing your lax, so your opponent lost with Snorlax, but you didn't win with it officially, even though you had it unrevealed.
@@michael_bettsSchrodinger's Snorlax
@@jimmicrackhead12 100% appearance rate on winning teams, but since it's also on the losing team you get a 100% appearance on losing teams. The chance of a team with Snorlax winning is 50%.
My favorite thing about gen 2 Snorlax is that in the special split, they nerfed the 2 other members of the OU big 3 hard, some of the hardest nerfs ever,
Chancy and Tauros both had their special attack gutted. Snorlax got to keep its special attack but got a massive buff to its special defense making it way better. Why? Nobody knows.
"Snorlax can Sleep up, Curse up and then explode" is one of the best lines I've ever heard
Im glad our enemies Chug and Jug are fighting amongst themselves. Our efforts to thwart them are working.
binding of isaac type beat
Idk if that fortnite name reference was intentional
I hope this is a sign for a potential Iron Chugulus redemption arch.
thank god, the ChugJug core team structure wouldve been so toxic for the metagame
An excellent entry to learning about Gen2 OU. I learned so much in this video about what's important in Gen2, how Sleep Talk and Rest work, and what the hazard situation looks like. The normal damaging moves comparison is especially fascinating: Return is like Earthquake, Body Slam gives up a bit of power for status chance, and DoubleEdge trades a side effect for Fire Blast tier damage.
Nice to see such an iconic pokemon be so amazing competitively
That Chess analogy with the Queen being like Snorlax really helped me realize the need for such a beast to be allowed in the meta. It's like a switch was flipped and I went from thinking it's ridiculous to seeing the balance of being overpowered
Snorlax is overpowered, but it’s allowed because it’s not unfair.
@@geodude671 no Snorlax is absolutely unfair, so much so that you basically NEED Snorlax on your team or you're at an extreme disadvantage. The analogy with the queen just emblazons the idea that both sides have access to such a powerful piece/Pokémon, and that it's more about how you utilize your Queen/Snorlax to gain an advantage in the otherwise level playing field that is Gen 3 OU/Ubers
It's the duct tape that holds the meta from becoming stall hell
I always found weird that in GSC (which is basically RBY2) every single RBY monster got nerfed, but Snorlax. Chansey lost its ability to deal damage back, Tauros lost it's special coverage options, Alakazam lost its ability to take hits on the special side, Exeggutor became much worse... But Snorlax got a freaking 50 point spdef boost. While being arguably #2 o #3 best RBY pokemon. No wonder it became broken.
Off topic, I always thought how GSC would play without leftovers. Max EVs + Leftovers beeing the only good item is what makes the tier slow (not stall, just slow)
Sometimes, I wonder how gsc would function if the later cross evo gens were already there, like Ursaluna or Mamoswine lol
Queenlax but when is the full chess roster comparison video Jim
Zapdos and Raikou are definitely Rooks.
WHAT THE HECK
What the fuck is this the real chess channel?
Damn thats cool as hell
Wait wtf?????
@@reddd-77yeah why is it here?
I’d worry in a Snorlax-less gen 2 OU, the tier will actually become the slow stally mess that everyone thinks gen 2 ou is
also Zapdos would go CRAZY lol
Special attackers in general would run wild, people are forced to run blissey, and boom it’s a fat blob stallfest
Metas always adapt.
Why can't people just be honest and say "I don't want to play a Snorlaxless meta" which is a perfectly fine thing to say.
@@Wandermidget Just like how they adapted to stall in gen 6 by... BANNING mega sableye. Nobody wants to go down that rabbit hole of pain only to ban more pokemon.
@@zxien1not to mention the fact that, despite everything, snorlax has a lot of counterplay
You should do a deeper dive into Snorlax in Ubers because it’s actually super interesting how it warps that tier too. Like Mewtwo dedicating a slot to have a chance against it for DPunch/Barrier/Self Destruct/Submission
Snorlax was my favourite Pokémon in Gen 1… at least until I circled around to the other side of Pallet Town and found a little mess of seaweed wearing Converse sneakers, haha.
My favourite quote that sums up snor is "the best one is still allowed in ou because it checks everything"
My favourite is that every Snorlax team has only a 50% winrate: every winning team has a Snorlax, but so does every losing team
@@tsawy6 lmaooo fr love that one too
my favorite is "Not using snorlax in gen 2 is not called being creative or thinking out of the box, it's called losing"
@@hecorter3834 true
My favorite is "Machamp is in OU because every noob tries to use it when they hear that Snorlax is on every team."
Jim deserves your sub just for subjecting himself to gen 2 comp.
Ofc snorlax is balanced, it has a clean 50% winrate!
It was also big in gen 3 ubers, though middling in gen 3 OU because it absolutely hates ttar’s sand which is ultra common in OU but far less common in ubers
I think Gen 3 also has much better physically offensive stuff: strong pokemon like Metagross and Salamence, staple moves like brick break and dragon dance, and of course choice band.
@@vladfi1 yeah Snorlax really hates facing the much larger pool of fighting types, especially since TTar being the best pokemon means almost ever battle will have sand and many teams will have fighting types just for TTar
Without Snorlax entire gen 2 OU would collapse... crazy that best Ubers Pokémon happens to be healthy in OU.
@@doomfan1359 Not just those 2, but other special attackers in general-Snorlax is really the only thing that can blanket check all the scary special attackers, while also putting out its own offence and keeping the pace up.
@@doomfan1359forget bout them, how you counter Jynx or nidoking
@@doomfan1359Celebi could wall them both(nobody runs drill peck), if it was allowed on OU.
@@Oliver-uz1fsforretress can explode on jynx, it's likelly to ko it
Snorlax, despite being the best Pokémon in Ubers, is allowed in GSC OU, because it provides a stabilizing presence by keeping special attackers in check, while still being manageable in that tier.
It is not the best in Ubers.
But somehow Gen 2 is currently being played by people with bad strategies.
Snorlax can use curse, sleep talk and rest and bodyslam.
Those are all good moves against Non-Rock or Ghost types.
Try using a Snorlax against a Gengar.
Mewtwo 1 shots it.
(Gengar)
and dynamic punch combined with Substitute and if you want to curse deals with Snorlax.
Then a move like Thunder for coverage...
@@romerobone6617
Mate, it bloody was.
Snorlax had an absurdly versatile movepool, which could deal with Gengar (Who wasn't even all that at that point, Misdreavus was particularly preferable) or any Rock/Steel mon with both psychic and ground attacks (it had access to both psychic and earthquake) without even breaking a sweat.
And even if he didn't, it's not any pokemon's job to come up with a proper answer for absolutely everything (which is why you have five other pokeballs in your pocket in the first place).
Gen 2 OU sounds a lot like gen 1 ubers, but with fewer glitches.
Didnt knew that belly drum quirk. Everyday we learn something new
I feel like one of the factor's in snorlax's favor is the fact that it is so ubiquitous that you always know the enemy has one. In contrast, one of the effects dracovish had on gen 8 OU was that you pretty much needed to dedicate a teamslot to a defensive 'vish answer (which basically meant a water immunity,) but none of the pokemon used in that role are particularly good outside of it, so you had an environment where you needed to bring a pokemon for one matchup, that was pretty much a liability if dracovish didn't show up, but if you replace the "counter," then you risk getting 6-0'd by dracovish when it DOES show up. Snorlax isn't even close to the level of "unwallable" dracovish reaches, its answers are pokemon that you'd already be using anyways, and you never have to think about "will my snorlax answers be relevant in my next ladder match" becasue the answer will pretty much always be "yes".
Also, there's the little detail that snorlax doesn't immediately threaten another snorlax in the mirror match, so even if you aren't sure what set the other snorlax is running, your own snorlax can usually buy you enough time to suss out its moveset, and determine which of your pokemon will best answer it (unless it booms on your snorlax, but that still requires them to sacrifice their snorlax.)
Welcome to early gen OU, where a Pokemon is good in its introductory gen, but a dominant force literally the next gen
Love your videos bro. You quickly became one of my favorite channels and look forward to your uploads
ADV Snorlax if Sand Stream didn't exist:
I feel like by modern standards, gen 1 tauros, chansey and snorlax, and gen 2 snorlax, zapdos, and raikou would all be considered banworthy
The thing is people seem to forget Smogon isn’t about balance. It’s a for fun format. Rules are more to optimize fun. That’s why so many “balance” decisions seem stupid
@@Skullhawk13 so why Mega sableye was put in jail this late ? I think most of people would agree stall isn't a fun style to play against
@@barongeoffrey75 because nobody called a vote. I’m not defending Smogon I was actually explaining why their logic is spotty. I’m not the person you should be asking sorry.
I'd have mentioned some of the Pokemon that have viability because of Snorlax. Charm Umbreon and Growl Miltank wall out Snorlax forever since their Attack-debuffing moves severely out-PP Curse. Misdreavus is the only pure-Ghost-type in the game, and while it's about as bulky as Gengar, it has a better time vs Snorlax thanks to not being EQ-weak, and can use Perish Song to force out Curselax. Similar to OG Porygon walling Lax in RBY, Porygon2 does the same this gen with Curse + 32PP Recover. Vaporeon deserves a mention being one of the few SpA Pokemon that can beat Snorlax 1v1 thanks to Growth (an event move in Gen 2) + Acid Armor.
A vid explaining the best things about each generation metagame and the mist common strategies would be fun
love gen 2! I can never decide if I like gen 2 or gen 3 the most. Part of why it's so underrated is people think it's the "stall" gen which isn't true (gen 6 mega sableye was true stall). The best way to describe gen 2 is like a game of chess. You're constantly pivoting and paying attention to your opponent and games are won by slowly driving them into a corner. One misstep and the game can end abruptly.
1:33 my hope is that their brawl will end up with an Iron Hugulis
Idk what Gamefreak was thinking, giving a top 2 Pokemon in RBY (excluding the Mews) a big buff just couldn’t possibly go well. Except it actually did, Snorlax makes GSC OU so fun and unique
The competitive scene for Pokemon hardly existed back in those days lol.
@@ShawFujikawa fair enough, the only competitive format was Nintendo Cup which was played on Red & Green, so freeze was even more busted and dominant
Plague von Karma released a video on it a while back, basically though it was the fact that gen 1 tauros was so powerful in the few official tournaments that they ended up reworking some things for the new games in hopes of nerfing it. For example, originally steel was no where as defensive of a typing and dark was actually weak to normal
Thank you for making a video of my favorite pokemon. My 7 year old self from the 90's loves you bro
Funbro is so strong it's banned in Anything Goes.
While it's completely subjective, without Snorlax gen 2 OU would a much more stallier metagame that the one we have today. Most of the special attackers in the tier are checked by a single slot on your team. A slot in fact with a lot of set variety, Snorlax is a really versatile Pokémon in GSC, like TTar in ADV.
Without it, gen 2 would be as boring as gen 8 for example, or some of the modern gen 4 OU.
That's why even while Ho-oh and Celebi wouldn't be broken in OU (which would make Ho-Oh, in fact, the earliest box legendary to drop to OU), they will make the pace too slow, and therefore they're banned
Why do people think gen 8 is boring or stally?
Like, i know it stayed for too much time as the current gen, but the meta itself is actually pretty nice
Isn't gen 4 OU mostly HYPEROFFENSE? Not to mention, gen 2 is just lacking in reliable sweepers due to curselax forcing everyone to use roar.
My favorite GSC OU fact is that Meganium is the most viable Johto starter
It kinda makes sense, actually. A bulky Pokemon with strong support options may be useful at times.
Feralgatr being a physical Water type is obviously kinda bad, and Typhlosion doesn't have Eruption yet, so it's just a fast special/mix attacker. Idk if Charizard is better, but I doubt it's that good either.
@@shytendeakatamanoir9740 I can definitely see why a bulky dual screener with Synthesis is rather good in this metagame, it’s just that Meganium is that notoriously terrible starter and worse and basically every generation afterwards.
As for Charizard, its definitely the best starter in Gen 2, only debatable on is Venusaur. It’s still not exactly OU (it’s BL) but it’s versatility and power makes it the best starter
That's why he is the true legendary in Gen 2
Belly drum deserves a dedicated vid, it's such a unique move
Love the Gen 2 content! Keep it up!
A video on marowak would be great 🙏🏼
I like gen 2 for sole reason that it's the only ou tier where meganium isn't complete and utter garbage
The best of the three starters. 💜
Anytime i reset and reran the game, there were a few that would start to increase my stress level the moment they got summoned. Miltank and Snorlax. Damn tanks.
Honestly Mewtwo is kind of a weird counterpart to Snorlax in Ubers. They're both auto-includes, with Snorlax checking special threats and Mewtwo checking physical ones. They also both have set variety with one near mandatory move (Recover and Rest, respectively) and one boosting move that can be dropped (Barrier and Curse). It's a really interesting dynamic. GSC Ubers is a really fun tier.
use Substitute, thunder or hidden power rock and amnesia and dynamic punch on Mewtwo.
See the best Pokemon ever and give it leftovers
Infinite rest and sleep talk is super OP.
Fyi you forgot the underscore in DarkerJenny_ in the description
its only a matter of time when Iron Mugulis and Iron Chugulis gets their own pokemon game series
"You're half empty"... killer smack talk
Bro I never knew about the Gen 2 Belly Drum mechanic when you're under half health. That's so fucking cool.
Gen 3 Tyranitar, Gen 2 Snorlax, can we get a Gen 1 Tauros video?
I kinda hate how a mischievous trio keeps in hostage the entirety of a format.
Snorlax is 100% uber material for how unpredictable it is and for how good its stats are.
We keep it there since it's the only thing resembling a counter to Zapdos and Raikou.
The rest of the format is occupied by very few mons having good synergy with those three. That's it, the rest gatekept out.
Now that's already a Uber tier scenario.
And you might call it chess, while it's funny since when I play chess I do not need to worry about things such as thunder luck, nailing desperate predicts, praying that Snorlax has a set not too troublesome for my team.
Finally, someone who talks my language. Gen 2 is indeed the worst OU meta, a meta everyone praises but no one plays due to Snorlax, and gets mocked if the confess as if it was a cult.
If anything UBERS is better because Snorlax is barely better than Mew and Mewtwo. Also, doesn't everyone complain about focus blast? I'm sure Thunder is THE EXACT SAME THING. I just hate gen 2 competitive so much, is so boring, so luck-dependant and so overcentralized, with no one wanting to fix anything... kinda reminds me of gen 9 OU but replacing boring with frustrating.
@@N12015 Gen2 OU stands for Gen2 Ubers.
Gen2UU has a lot of potential tbf: lots of variety, insane offensive options and mons with CLEAR weaknesses.
But yeah, we do prefer RNG extravaganza.
The Belly Drum 'quirk' is due to a Gen 2 bug - the move wasn't coded correctly. It first raises Atk by two, _then_ checks current HP before doing the rest of the +2 Atk modifiers.
In earlier in-dev versions of GS, Belly Drum originally only did half of _current_ HP, not maximum HP; the devs realised this would be too overpowered and exploitable and changed it to max.
Oh, and the devs also thought Snorlax would be 'balanced' due to his low Def, too, not realising his massive HP sorta made up for it (and that Curse was a thing, along with RestTalk, and that Fighting moves are garbage until Gen 3/4).
I remember a comment that says something like this in FSG youtube on Snorlax
If Snorlax is banned, Zapdos and Raikou absolutely dominate.
If these two become banned, Suicune and Starmie dominates
If Suicune and Starmid dominates, ground types, especially steelix dominates.
Of course i agree to disagree, since i dont think zapdos and raikou will instantly be banned since things like Celebi will probably just be sent to OU.
But then the metagame will be in a stalemate. The strongest physical attacker is gone, and Thick Club Marowak isnt strong enough to overpower Skamory, and doesnt have a good movepool and stats to try anything lax wants to do.
Basically, both sides play a pp war, and switching around would prob be the best strat in the game (since leftovers isnt cancelled by anything except toxic, and toxic isnt really that good due to rest)
i don't even remember what iron chuglis and mugulis is riffing on at this point
Mugulis started it with some hurtful remarks.
@@jimothycool checks out
He's really sleeping through gen 2
Snorlax using curse: "I said I don't want any damned vegetables!"
You forgot the "heck" at the beginning
When I play gen 2 OU we don't allow snorlax
They've ran Lax-less tournaments.
They were awful.
Big Yellow compared GSC Snorlax to the Medic from Team Fortress 2: insanely overpowered but their presence makes the game much better. And similarly, GSC OU without Snorlax would be an ACTUAL stallfest with Zapdos, Raikou, other Special Attackers, and Blissey running around, much like how how no Medic (and no Ubercharge) would just lead to stacking Engineers and Snipers becoming even more annoying to deal with.
Also just look at the big guy
Who else would you want to be the face of your metagame
Hilarious how hard the amnesia nerf hit
Could you talk about the number 1 used pokemon in each generation?
And also if you didn't notice, your ogerpon video is blocked by Nintendo for showing too much Pokemon owned content even though your entire channel is like centred around pokemon (showdown good)
I did notice Lol. All good, it was a bad vid anyway.
@@jimothycooljust remake it using terribly drawn fan art and add a disclaimer that old money has already infiltrated the new DLC 😂
@@DarthNoshitamthis
@@jimothycoolhumble sigma mindset
Nice video! I'm waiting for my ticket to the ring :)
Another thing why snorlax isn’t ban in OU is because of it’s role to break stalemates.
I still can't wrap my head around how Snorlax can be "healthy" for this meta.
I've played *a lot* of Gen 2 (OU) back in the days, and every single match lasted almost hours. We're talking about 2-300 turns, even 400 some times.
I've started running a lot of Snorlax-less teams, just to shake things up, and the only difference was that now I was losing in 2-400 turns.
Mewtwo, substitute, amnesia, dynamic punch and thunder and leftovers.
Gen2 becomes a complete stallfest with blissey being the next best thing for special attackers, and said special attackers such as zapdos go on a wild murder spree if snorlax isnt there to check it
Snorlax was always a problem every time I battle it from Pokemon Stadium to the Main games!
I remember you put gen 2 pretty low on your tier list of metagames. will you do another one now how had change of opinions?
I hope they bring snorlax in gen 9 and add the ability unaware since it can't even wake up without a pokeflute, it will be a top tier mon for sure ou tier
Mewtwo with substitute and amnesia and dynamic punch deals with Snorlax very fast.
I wonder if Snorlax could beat Lickitung
No way.
Lickilicky would actually be pretty good in Gen 2 OU, no?
@@shytendeakatamanoir9740 stats are too low, even for back then.
Nice to see my spirit animal doing good
Hey! I know you make a lot of content related to gen 3 - do you ever play any ROM Hacks?
When the 2 mugs fight, is it called a kanpai?
That shall be an epic fight the Chug Vs the Mug WHO WILL WIN?
I wish Snorlax got more love through new moves or forms
I needs buffs badly. Like it needs a signature move and maybe better abilities
Honestly sad that it doesn't learn Slack Off.
Would you consider doing a video on gen 2 team structures where NOT running Snorlax can be optimal? (Not sure if these exist but the intro seemed to suggest they may.)
Not running Snorlax in gen 2 is called losing. The only time Snorlax isn't at 100% usage in a tournament is when people win a game with hax before revealing their lax.
@@michael_bettsThen no wonder why almost no one plays gen 2 OU. It's just a broken mess and not in the fun way like gen 1.
Having to use every single time X slot is just boring for regular players because it limits teambuilding, despite what Smogon fans say.
@@N12015 tbh thats true, if people have to justify such an overwhelming presence in a tier by the fact that 'the tier would suck without it' maybe its just cause gen 2 ou is garbage
Not using Snorlax is not optimal in a competitive Gen 2 environment; it's essentially a noob trap. The whole metagame is accommodated to Snorlax's presence, and so, teams without Snorlax would be lacking in Snorlax's excellent role compression (similar to Landorus-T in later generations, but much more important). Teams without Snorlax are not advised in competitive play; they should be reserved for casual games.
@@kingpig8732 I mean, bans in OU didn't exist until gen 4, and no one who plays gen 2 wants to go back and ban Snorlax and completely change the metagame because they like the Snorlax metagame.
Snorlax has a lot of different sets and options that play very differently, and several people have tried no Snorlax tournaments and the format is really bad, so you'd have to start banning a lot of mons Snorlax was holding back. The general sentiment is that we leave it how it is, it's kinda grandfathered in.
GSC Snorlax is just the Chess queen of pokemon
Lax didnt start out with lovely kiss, they gave it that a bit later, as if wasnt powerful enough before, they made it a sleeper as well.
that's powerful
good ol Curselax.
Gen 2 was SO defense focused.
I forgot how versatile it is... i can immediately think of some niche sets that weren't explicitely shown... like combining Lovely Kiss and Belly Drum with Chesto Berry+Rest... or the Belly Drum Snore still dealing decent damage during Rest turns. If your opponent is not careful this monster can literally defeat them in its sleep... having said that this is a very great video presenting Gen 2 in the way it should be presented, thank you
Hum... is that an occasion for me to finally destroy Iron Mugulis/Chugulis after they fight ?
he big
Coming from someone who used to naively think that Snorlax should be banned for its overventralizing effect on the GSC metagame:
Banning Snorlax from OU would have a huge cascading effect on the metagame, and not necessarily a positive one.
Zapdos and Raikou would be way too strong if Snorlax got banned, causing Blissey to become more or less required on teams, which would cause a self-fulfilling prophecy where mons like Machamp lost their niche in chunking the best mon in the game -- Snorlax. Which, makes Blissey even stronger.
If banning Lax gets Raikou/Zap banned, then just IMAGINE trying to deal with Suicune. Snorlax really glues the tier together.
Shout out gen 2 snorlax for checking gen 2 zapdos. Don’t know how you feel about gen 5, but interestingly enough that’s been the only generation where Zapdos been UU(so far, who knows what gen 9 dlc will do) and just a general explanation could be cool and act as a pseudo follow up to your gen 3 zapdos vid
i played back in the day and was pretty darn good. and i hated using Snorlax. my mindset was that he was a cheating pest, so a lot of my options revolved around phasing the bastard out quick or high physical assaults backed up by dual screens
it was wild, but i was able to usually win games against Snorlax users because a lot of people still didnt jive with the idea (pre-NYPC) of using low special attack mons for coverage, like you show with Golem and Fire Blast. it was a strange time. also toxic/t-wave/sleep was rampant and even Snorlax got in the act later on. Gen 2 is fascinating to me even to this day, that and 386 are my favorite metagames ever
So are there ways to kill snorlax consistently with another Pokémon?
Usually gen 2 is a slower paced metagame, so the Snorlax usually takes damage from spikes and attacks over time until it can be taken out, though pokemon such as thick club marowak do quite well against it, because sword dance out paces curse and thick club already adds a huge boost to its attack
Machamp’s Cross-Chop is a clean 2HKO. And has a high crit rate.
There's also the fact that snorlax is slow, and doesn't have reliable recovery outside of rest. If snorlax doesn't have sleep talk, then you can punish it when it tries to burn sleep turns.
Even if it's a RestTalk set, the fact that the combo takes up two moveslots means that snorlax has to choose between a coverage move and a setup move (unless it wants to go without a STAB move)
Over $2400? Well then, the money did got different.
my boi Chugulis winning that fight i bet all my money on him
That was fun
I wish Snorlax got more use out of sleeping moves in the modern games because of the theming of it.
It should get slack off, but unfortunately gamefreak ignores it.
So it’s gen 1 kingambit
goat metagame
Yes, queen snorlax
Has anyone ever ran a Hyper Beam Snorlax?
There isn't much of a point. Double Edge or Return do enough damage already with enough Curses.
Casually: Only every kid ever.
Competitively: Yes... In Gen 1
Not stronger than Double Edge or Return by enough to justify the downside. If Rest, you want Sleep Talk and either a boosting move (Curse / Belly Drum) or a coverage move (Earthquake / Fire Blast / Thunder). If Selfdestruct, you want one of each or two coverage moves.
Hyper Beam does nothing to help you get past Skarmory, Steelix, Golem, Rhydon, Gengar, Misdreavus, etc., while competing for a move slot with things that do. And the recharge turn is exploitable for a free Curse with one of the usual checks, or a free switch to Machamp or Marowak, or even a prediction-less Explosion with no fear you might switch out. Also, Curselax with Hyper Beam seems like it loses badly to Drumlax after boosting, beaming and KO-ing something, since the other lax drums on the recharge turn and then outspeeds.
Idk how strong gen 2 snorlax really is, it only has a 50% winrate after all :)
SNORLAX
In short every single weird game design and balance quirck and oversight just so happen to overlapp in a way that Snorlax can take advantage off to the fullest.
Even things like the the fact that it has less physical defense than special isn't a big deal because there are almost no good physical moves.
Nowadays we have moves above 100 bsp for every type, often for both physical and special moves. Back in gen 2, many Pokemon didn't even have a move that broke 90 bsp while also being STAB and the moves that could take advantage of that lower power defense, while being somewhat strong themselves can be counted on one hand.
if u think abt it Snorlax is the queen in chess almost
What’s an OU?
Snorlax, is the best pokemon, in generation 2.
Where's your evidence.
Your silly humor in your subscriber callouts has me giggling every time. Keep doing you 💜