My wife got the Glock 19x couple months ago and I just bought this on Black Friday sale at the BX on base. Went from $720 to $575 for the gun, 3 mags, cleaning kit, trigger lock, and case... and no tax since on base. Great review... as someone that's been military since '98 I'm ok with a little blemish from days at the range.
From an old retired Army guy...I was first issued a 1911A1. Years later I carried an M9 on two deployments. I also have carried 1911s and 92Fs as a copper. I love both of them. I got an M17 and I think it's the best handgun the Army has come up with so far. As far as the they guy in the video talking about what he likes and doesn't like.... who cares? The Army wants and extra safety because most troops who will carry a pistol in the Army, they will get very little if any training (machine gunners, 1st Sergeants, Officers, REMFs and a few others who will fire 36 rounds to qualify, then the pistol will sit in a holster for the entire deployment (except when going into the mess hall and having to pull it at the clearing barrel).
I have to say, i grew up sbooting Rugers, S&W's, Glocks, and Taurus. I favored the Ruger P90 .45 ACP until i shot the Glock 21 .45 ACP. I fell in love with glocks and found the Glock 17 and 19 to round off my fanboy top 3. In 2017, i had my first opportunity to shoot my first ever Sig Sauer. It was the Sig Sauer P320 9mm compact. I was used to carrying full size and only shooting a compact at the range. When i first shot the P320, i fell in love with and had to test it again as it felt right for me. At the beginning of tgis year, 2018, i finally purchased a Sig Sauer P320 9mm compact and have never looked back. Its been the perfect match for me and hasnt left my side since. Ive also not had any failures with it.
Love my M17, trying to find a small grip module. You're right it was about $650 and it came in a nice plastic case with 1 17 round and 2 21 round mags. I also bought the M18 slide assembly which is the 3.9 barrel. My daily carry is the XDm .40 in a BlackHawk Leather IWB and this Grip module (frame) fits in the holster perfectly. The imprint of the XDm on the leather is exactly the same as the M17. So I can pop out the XDm and drop in the M17 without any problem. Mine came without the "Safety" so I'm happy with that, I do carry with 1 in the chamber and I did try the drop test with a snap cap and could not get it to fire. There is a little lift on the barrel as you fire but easy to control after a mag or two, had virtually no issues shooting the M17 right out of the box. I did wipe off a little of the oil on the barrel and slide assembly but that was all. I shot brass and some steel shells without a problem. I put about 500 rounds thru it on the first time out and the M17 worked without failure. The second time I which to the M18 slide assembly and again it took a couple mags to get it centered and flawless after that.
Unfortunately SigSauer in Germany must close the doors because of the bad politics in Germany. All Guns now are produced in USA. In USA is much better politics for firearms production. Greetings from Germany.
Quick correction for reference. The m17 is not cut for a Romeo 1. Per MHS requirement it was too be cut for a Leopold Deltapoint Pro. Supposedly Sig is going to release a new Romeo that fits on a DeltaPoint footprint sometime this summer, but it has yet to be released.
I just purchased a P320 M17 and will receive it in a week. I’m a retired USAF Cop so I carried the S&W Model 15 (stupid gun for law enforcement) and the Beretta M-9, so I’m very excited to try this out. I’ve been carrying a Springfield XDs .45, but I’m getting older and thought I’d go back to a 9mm. This was a great video, and it helped to assure me that I’ve made a good choice.
I have a Sig p320 carry and I absolutely love it. Shooting it side by side with a 19x and I honestly think mine is just as good or better and I bought a bare bones stock p320
I can only speak for myself, but I have had good experiences with the SIG P320. I shoot them as accurately as any handgun I have owned, and they have been reliable. Their ergonomics and trigger feel suit me very well. There has been rampant "SIG Hatred" on the internet ever since the P320 was awarded the US Army contract last year. Again, I can only speak for myself, but I have had good success with these handguns. Apparently many handgun purchasers agree, as the P320 has been a strong seller despite the hate and controversies of the previous year.
I agree that the 320 has gotten a bad wrap (as has the 365). I think no matter who won the contract, there would be strong feelings of animosity from the haters. Thank you and cheers!
@@KSGunGuy01 If you look back at ANY firearm adopted by the US military, you will find controversy, and major changes that had to be made during service. The M1903 Springfield, the 1911, the M1 Garand, the M16...all are revered today, but all had their issues during initial service. As for the SIG P365, that pistol did have some early issues due to SIG trying to rush it to market. I have a more recent P365 that is up to 800 failure free rounds. I love it and carry it every day. It really is an awesome carry pistol. Like with any gun I plan to carry, I always test them to MY satisfaction and I recommend the same to others.
Hi, just pick my Sig P320f M17 today. After inspecting it and wiping it down to take off the packing lube I did lot of administrative manipulations. It feels real good in the hand, the trigger is the best of the striker fired handgun manufacturers. The only thing that comes close to the feel in the hand is the Sig P226, P227, and the Beretta M9A3(M9A3 is a hammer fired handgun). I have owned this firearms for less than 24 hours and have not had a chance to take it to the range. But so far I like what I see and how it feels. I too am annal about the aesthetic as well as the durability of the exterior and interior finishes. If it's a combat and or law enforcement firearm you'd think the finishes would and should be very robust on all metal and non-metal surfaces not just for aesthetics but to protect the metal and non-metal surfaces to increase the life of the firearm. Currently my EDC for the last 25 years has been a custom handmade 1911 in .45 ACP by The Robar Companies. With the increase in 9mm cartridge and projectile technology lethality I'm concidering changing my EDC to one of the following Sig P320f M17, Glock 19X, or Beretta M9A3. Having increased firepower and weight reduction over a high capacity. 45 ACP 1911 and the current 9mm cartridge and bullet technology now has lethality as the .45 ACP of just a few years ago, i.e. Winchester SXT or Federal Hydroshock technology it makes sense to revisit what my EDC will be. Any input you have will be appreciated. Thanks for your presentation. Ricky from IBM, Ret. k4vms@comcast.net
Im commenting as im watching and my answer is a resounding F'CK YEAH its worth it. I used to hate Sigs until the M17. Mine came with 1 17 and 2 21 round mags 🙂
Absolutely love all my sigs........ just picked up the 17 and is now my all time favorite one to shoot......and I own plenty of nice pistols..... but am having a blast with this one
I could care less about the finish. I just want a gun that is accurate, reliable, and will feed any round you can feed it. This gun feels great in my hands, the trigger is very light which I like. The trigger on my Taurus G3 is heavier which I believe can lead to being more likely to pull shots more. I will be purchasing this next week when I get paid and take it to the range soon. Great review!
Recently got the M17. Won't be my everyday carry gun, for that I have a Browning Hi-Power I brought in1974. Has been rebuilt and as gun people know is one great gun! My usual carry is the Xds .45. Nice size carry gun but have to adjust to not double tap as trained for soo many years. Got about 300 rds thru the M17. Some adjustment to the hi axis but no real problem. Like the trigger pull. After practice drawing now used to safety, grip thumb takes it down and stays there. Feels real natural. This will be my SHTF gun in a drop down tactical.
Its my understanding that the slides of the M17 (civie versions included) are machined to accept the Delta Point Pro, not the Romeo 1. So its fine that the rear sight is removed along with the plate because the Delta Point has a rear sight attached to it.
Sold my 226 a long time ago. I could not get used to the revolver like long trigger reset after shooting mostly 1911's. I now have the M17 and I will be keeping it as my house gun. I have the 21 round mag and a Streamlight TLR-1 HL light mounted on the rail.
Great video as always KS! I’ve had nothing but good experiences with my P320 Carry, despite having to send it in to Sig for 2 week’s, and I’d happily recommend it to anyone looking for a solid, dependable carry gun. The only reason I had to send it in is because I bought it when they first came out, but according to Sig (I live in NH so I walked in and talked to someone) the newer made models of the P320 already have the recall done on them. I’m actually considering getting a .357 Sig Compact version in addition to the 9mm I’m already enjoying. The Nitron finish on the Carry is actually pretty resistant to damage, so it’s a shame the finish in the M17 is so subpar! Thanks again for a thorough and enjoyable video 👍🏽
Thank you Kratos! That’s awesome that the Carry is working for you and I agree about the Nitron finish. I wish they had done something similar with this one. A 357 Sig would be sweet! Cheers as always brother!
Well hopefully Sig learns from the mistakes they made on the P320 & and the P365, or I think they’re going to lose quite a few customers! I haven’t had the chance to watch all of your older videos yet, but have you had any .40 or .357 Sig in the KS gun vault??
Ohhhh I totally understand that. The price of ammo has gone up a lot over the past couple of years! I enjoy shooting .357 Sig more than .40, and if you need a reason to justify buying it, just remember that .357 Sig is still a 9mm.......just on steroids!! 😁 Have a great weekend!
Thanks for the video. The first shipment of M17s came to the 101st ABN with tan controls. The rest that come from Sig will look like this, FDE with black controls.
Mine came with 4 magazines, 3 - 17rd 1 - 21rd. The ejection patern on my 17 is consistently out the side & NOT towards me. I love my M17 Thx for sharing the video.
Great video. The P320 compact is my go to edc in double stack. Thousand plus rds . . . Been flawless. Imo . . the best polymer double stack pistol ever. I will be investing in a x-carry soon with the Romeo red dot.
Good review. I can’t comment on the M17 variant as I’ve never shot one. But I have shot the P320 and it didn’t feel right to me. Up until last Spring, I was an M&P guy and a Sig 226 and various revolvers. I decided that I need to get serious about my shooting skills and pick one gun to train exclusively with. So I rented a bunch of 9mm striker fired guns at my local range over a few weeks. While I was not a fan of Glocks, I found that the new G19 Gen 5 was perfect for me. I bought a new Gen 5 with factory night sights and started training, dry fire and live fire exclusively. I am happy with my choice. I’m not suggesting that Glock is better than Sig, my 226 was a great gun. I think we owe you a debt of gratitude for your reviews as they provide details to consider as we look for the right gun for us. Thanks.
Thank you very much! I agree, the gen 5 Glocks are great guns. I love my 19. I have heard others talk about the 320 not feeling right in the hand. An interesting finding for sure. Cheers Stephen!
Hey there KS I own 2 p320s the x-carry and the after recall compact. All in all I like the ease to clean and the modular capability of the firearms. My thoughts on this version well meh I own 2 as I said before. Personally I like the x-carry grip module and trigger. As always informative and non bias keep it up brother.
Excellent review. Covers the gun good and bad in detail. I have owned and collected many guns over the years. We all have our favorites and are lucky to live in a time where most of us will find something we love to own and shoot. Again enjoyed your review. Thanks
Nice video I have a p 320 RX I’ve shot it over 3000 rounds through it is what I should of said never had a failed ejection or any mishap knock on wood, I love the red dot
Kenneth Erkson I’ve been thinking about getting the 320rx compact. Is the finish on it the same as the M17? My brother in law has the 226 FDE with the Romeo 1 and I was hoping he’d want to sell it. He said NO! I did get his BCM AR-15 with a aimpoint compM4! though!
Fred Wilhite I have the Cabela’s p 320 RX I just looked at it not a scratch on it, I have 5 sigs none of them are scratched more than normal wear I have a p220 I bought 25 years ago it’s just normal wear.
Kenneth Erkson The only Sig I own right now is a M400 Ar-15. I plan on owning several more; the 320rx is on the top of the list. Is yours black? I’d like to find a FDE model; but I never saw one. Thought I’d have to buy the M17 and put the romeo1 on it. I guess I could get the fde frame and run a black slide. The function is more important! As long as it can get the job done just about any color would work! As long as it’s black,fde, camo, olive drab, or maybe grey!
I know the video is 4 years old by now but I just wanted to say that I recently bought mine for around $650 brand new and it came with 3 mags; one 17-round and two 21-round mags. So far I've been really happy with it.
KSGunGuy A good topic for the Live Stream might be the evolution of handguns and phases gun owners go thru as we get older. Revolvers,1911's, DA/SA, and Strikerfired. Having gone through the evolution and age factor I notice several different types of firearm enthusiast. There are practical, tactical, shooter's, collectors and many other phases we go thru. Different mentalities on carry from CCW, Combat, Home Defense and SHTF . All experts of course! LOL. Just thought it would be interesting conversation. Thanks!
Excellent review! I own a standard P320 (nitron, no external safety), and fully agree with your experience: weak/cheap polymer, easily dentable/scratchable; weak/cheap slide finish, easily scratchable.
I would be contradicting myself if I said yes. I’ll stick by my non poly Sig stance for now. Great start to the video none the less. Watching on to the end. Not sure why the made the RMR design rear sight exclusive like the TP9SFx. The finish really doesn’t look durable. Safe queen? I think I would take the FN 509 Tac at about $200 Plus extra dollars over this but I’m sure it will sell well. Again, excellent review KS.
I have the 509 Tactical and the M17. I like 509 better, not to say the Sig is bad or anything. It definitely is what you would expect from a military issued sidearm.
Nice review as always. I looked at an M17 today at my LGS. I liked it but not blown away. Still considering it but may very well end up with a Steyr L9 instead... cheers!
Sig 320s are awesome pistols. I have 320fs fde and 320c as well as the fde. Also the x carry and the x five.. No issues with them at all. Yes I'm sig fan boy...lol
@@christopherbarger6112 We all have opinions... And your opinion is just that. I've never ever had any problems with my sigs. I've carried and use many types of pistols. They key is...in my opinion...maintaining your firearm arms...if you don't...yes they will have failures.. 24yrs in the army has taught me that.. No firearm is gaurteed unless you do maintenance...bluf
The ejection straight back at you ... that probably won the contract for Sig! Military pistol ranges have a 1 to 1 brass reclaim...shoot 40 rounds, return 40 empty casings. The M9 threw brass all over the damn place and looking brass in tall grass sucks. I bet the testers appreciated the nice little pile of brass at their feet!
I bought one of the very early 320s in FDE with night sights and the finish scratches so easily. Not to mention after around 300 rounds the wear seemed a bit excessive, akin to wear patterns you'd see in other pistols at the 800-1000 round mark. Having said that, there has been no corrosion or negative effects, just shiny metal and no FDE color left in certain areas of the slide. My biggest gripe is that there are so many cuts inside the slide itself that makes it a total pain to clean thoroughly for a guy like me where everything has to be squeaky clean. Also, these manual safety 320s are actually less modular because you must order frames that incorporate the cut for the safety, or take a dremel yourself to your frame. As you mentioned as well, the carbon burns into the slide and frame a bit too easily and its something Ive never been able to completely remove myself. I have confidence in the finish to hold up over time but aesthetically in 15-20 years time, these 320s will look excessively worn and beat up compared to other guns like glocks and HKs which are seemingly timeless minus holster wear which is expected on older used guns. If I did not already own a 320, I would opt to get a M17 because I'm a total sucker for the non-full length dust cover pic rail frame. But my 320 is plenty enough as is and like most every polymer striker gun, you've shot one 320 you've shot them all (sure with minor differences in the X models but for standard ones like this theres nothing extra to recommend getting a second standard model)
Well said Shaz! It’s unfortunate the wear is so extreme. That said, aside from the finish isseus, I think the P320 is a decent gun. Thank you and cheers!
Oh wow, never seen that happen with the finish on any the p320’s / M17’s I’ve had come through the shop. I’d send that back to Sig ASAP. Our range rental has 10’s of thousands of rounds and the only wear is on the internal of the slide where the barrel tilts.
Very thoroughly described. I like the look of the weapon but I don’t like the idea of hot brass getting ejected towards me even if it drops short of my face. That’ll be distracting for inexperienced shooters who might just want one for personal protection.
Great video, KS. I agree with you and the others who've already commented about the finish. I love Sig, love my P229, but the last few years have really been tough watching their quality control issues. I want them to succeed and thrive yet they seem, forgive the pun, to keep shooting themselves in the foot.
Thank you Aaron! Yeah, the finish is disappointing indeed. I’m not sure why they aren’t pulling things together more but maybe they are concentrating on the military stuff. Hopefully they will get back on track. Cheers!
@@nextlevelfirearms6585 it's plenty reliable. I'll never believe the "Glock is more reliable" argument when I've replaced 2 service Glocks for malfunctions with the same ammo as my P320 has.
Not my experience & not the apparent experience of a number of others. Glad you're happy with yours I, personally, would never bet my life on it. P320 we tested crapped out after 800 rounds steel case TulAmmo. Haven't had that happen with 226 or 229 nor H&K P30 & VP9, walther P99as or Glock 19 Gen4. Those guns all ate 2000 rounds of steel without issue. Stay safe!
@@nextlevelfirearms6585 co-worker 40,000 rounds through the X5, 2000 rounds through my normal p320. It's a perfectly capable gun and there's been no issues of it "crapping out". Also I never shoot steel cased. It's just all preference. I prefer my Sig over my Glock. I prefer my Legion over both. And I'm probably getting a CZ next.
Not trying to be nasty: but Sig's video says rear sight plate is NOT cut for Sig RX, as other 320's are: but are cut for the official contract Leupold Delta Point, a definite improvement IMHO! While I'm a lover of Sig guns, as both a former dealer for 15 years and a consumer, their accessory products have been junk! Strong statement: but I stand by it! Very recently learned Sig optics are manufactured in China and shipped as parts to US and assembled here! Now you know why Romeo's, etc are so much cheaper than Trij RMR, Leu Delta Point, etc.! Personally, I think it is outrageous to force use of Sig Romeo's in all RX guns, except M17 contract guns which MUST have plate for Delta Point which would be only way I'd buy any Sig RX. Note Sig's site says different plate coming for Romeo on M17; but then it won't really be a M17 will it?
You are correct in the finish on the new SIGs does wear. My guess is they want you to buy more than one, to just keep one in the safe and never shoot to have a pristine one in the collection.
Sigs PVD finishes have a history of complaints. My first experience was on my p226 Legion. Its worn pretty well. I just picked up a M17-Commemorative. Not looking forward to wearing that finish out. :(
I served 15 years in the Army and made small arms master and Unit Marksmanship coordinator. I think people forget that when it comes to federal purchases, normally it goes to the lowest bidder with the basic requirements. Hence why the Beretta models were replaced because they were made cheap, also had finish issues along with the safety on the Beretta failing occasionally. SO if we go back to the 1911's, it was replaced because Da Actions were deemed safer and 9mm ammo increased round count and recoil was reduced. So the Sig was chosen from my studys because of the modularity and grip to accomodate female shooters and smaller hands, a better safety, the FDE color and price per unit. both the M9 and the 1911's were hammer fired. Stryker fired is the new thing so theres a few of my reasons why the Sig was chosen. Not to mention the Marine Corp had already fielded the M-11 also made by Sig. Again one manufacturer for all branches. Sig had a heads up because the M-11 had already been battle tested in Iraq and Afghanistan so why not choose Sig.
Army uses 124 Grain NATO , slightly hotter than “range ammo” it’s all I use these days.... Never had a single malfunction in the year (purchased in Oct 2018) I’ve had my M17... the only wear on the slide is on the dust cover where the frame rubs ....not sure how many rounds I’ve shot through it, estimate around 1500
I’m not sure what the difference is in the coatings between my guns but I was cleaning my guns the other day and noticed heavy wear on my G26 gen 5 coating inside the slide where the barrel rubs and my Shield which is the hen one has no wear at all. My M&Ps tend to wear better then my Glocks and Sig’s.
Very interesting! I would think the Gen 5 coating would be crazy good. I’ll be curious to hear more reports down the road to see if it’s getting worse for you. Thank you and cheers Mike!
Really liked your review. Good coverage in identifying shortcomings. Based on your review, among all others, I went out and purchased a P320 M17. I can live with the shortcomings, had to have it. Shout out to Centerfire Range in Olathe, KS. Great people.
As a retired Soldier and retired police range master, who has fired hundreds of weapons...first carried a 1911A1 when I was 19 yrs old, later carried the M9. After I retired I bought a M17. I love them all...but what you should understand when it comes to the US Army, most who will carry a pistol will get little or no real training with it. The training I got was usually “here’s your loaded mags, watch the target...shoot. The pistol for most who carry it in the Army is a decoration. It will never win a battle. BUT...they have to make it safe and easy to use...and the mindset is that it must have safety. I love my M17 and as far as an Army gun goes, I think it’s the best pistol they have issued. No body gives a shit if scratch’s etc.
While you may be concerned about the finish you have to remember this a combat pistol. It's meant to be used and abused. It's a not a shelf queen. If it gets a scratch just shrug and keep on shooting.
About the iron sight being able to co witness with a rmr. The army chose the DeltaPoint pro for the m17 pistol mounted red dot contract. So the DeltaPoint pro actually has a co-witness sight that attaches to the rear of the sight. It is sold separately for civilian sales.
@@christopherbarger6112 i would disagree. Stock glocks are nothing to be proud off. Take a sig in the field any day over glock or fn. Personal preference & experience.
If you don't already I suggest you buy a Taurus G2 as your 226 mags will work flawlessly in them. Also I'm a simple man if it doesn't have a manual or grip safety then I'm not buying it regardless of who built it. That said out of spite I'd buy a Sig over a Glock as they don't sue like a crybaby for losing and I really despise glock.
My M17 has become my favorite pistol. It is easy to rack, fit's my hand perfectly and the trigger is better than any other striker fired gun I have tried. Mine came with three mags and I paid around $555.00 US.
When they first came out, I went to get one and they were in the 950 range, I just bought one the other day surprised they are only 550 now considering I paid the same for a base glock 19 and you get three high cap mags , night sights and sight cut for the same price. Wnere the glock and fn 509 tactical versions are roughly 1k after tax even though the fn doest even pass any of the weather testing a d even failed the first test just submerged in water. where the p320 and glock passed flawlessly
I've been carrying a nitrided Ruger for 4 years that has much less finish damage. It would bother the hell out of me if a pistol double the price point of an SR was that worn after a day at the range and the manufacturer's excuse was "it's a military pistol."
I just bought one at my local FFL. One 17 round magazine ,and two 21 round magazines , and a Sig light for $670 before tax. Thought that was a pretty good deal.
Its amazing how many RAMFs are experts on the M17 testing. They who have never been on a testing team, and are marginalizing the young smart patriotic men and women who did the testing, they (the soldiers on the team) were all asked their opinion as to what was the best overall weapon (SIG WON). One point that sums up all the GRIPS is "Those of little faith", who are against the safety, you probable have never had 50 soldiers on a firing line and you are responsiable for clearing all the weapons NOW and FAST without a visible safety. GOOD LUCK? How about a little positive outlook instead of trying to impress all the bystanders with your opinions. They were all good weapons!!!!! I am old enough to have used the 1911A1 in combat and could make a case for it against all the current pistoles. Why would I, to impress others? Am i going to change anything???? Lets run with this baby!!!!!
It's definitely not the best weapon... not by a long shot. It was the cost effective weapon. I'd rather our soldiers and law enforcement officers have the best.
Would have been much cheaper to upgrade the Beretta. So no it was not the cheapest option lol. A politician made the choice, I'm sure sig gave him a pay off.
@@someguy5444, would not have been cheaper to modify the M9, as what the military was looking for was in the name of the program: modularity. Part of why the P320 won was because of its modularity. There is a kit you can buy right now that will turn a full size P320 into a sub gun, just supply the barrel and chassis. This purchase will allow the military much greater flexibility going forward to build off of a simple foundation, more than the others.
I added the X Series grip module in the full length/size. Grip module extends to end of slide/barrel. The m17 mags fit perfect, and I changed the magazine base plates to black as the stock m17 grip module and mag base plates are Coyote Tan and the slide is a bit darker. I didnt want to go with 3 colors, so slide is original and the rest is black. It looks very sharp, and bold. I was looking forward to buying this for awhile but did not like the feel of the stock m17 grip module, at all once I had in hand…Too wide I felt. On the newer versions the optic base plate and rear fixed sights are independent. So with the right optic, you can keep the factory rear fixed sights as backup behind the optic! Awesome update from Sig. The trigger is good but not great. Dont feel it needs an upgrade though. Thats purely personal preference. ALSO, mine did not come with the bulky ambidextrous safety which I did not want anyways and would have removed. Good review, but Sig has done a few things different on the newer models. Prices have come down a bit as supply has started to catch up with demand. I definitely recommend this firearm.
The P320 is my handgun I use. I own many others, but the P320 works best for me for actual duty. Not sure this M17 would actually serve a purpose for me. Looks great though! I started with Glock and was Glock Or nothing for years. I have since gone through M&P, FN, CZ and Berreta. I am sticking with the P320 though. All the other brands I tested I could make work for sure if I had to.
Sig p320 M18 is worth every single penny. as my edc, this pistol is accurate straight out the box with a crisp trigger pull. I added talon grips grip tape and I tell ya it feels amazing in my hand. Over 1000 rounds put through and no issues. If you’re thinking about buying this just do it you will not regret it.
Nope. I love my P250. Dead reliable and $300 or so nowadays on the secondary market. A striker fired pistol with a manual safety is dumb. Which is why the Army required it. Since I got out of the Army, I don't use dumb firearms anymore.
SIG spends more on R&D than most companies. I have Faith in them this pistol and the smaller version will serve faithfully into the future. Don't worry SIG has plenty of fantastic stuff under development.
The only bad thing I can say about is that the frame does feel kind of cheap compared to the competition but you can get one of the best Wilson Combat replacements for around 60 bucks anyway. It's a cool gun. I love fde/tan/peanut butter and big full size guns.
I wish people knew the truth about this gun. It failed the PVT (product verification testing) the Army did last year AFTER it awarded the contract. In fact, it failed the bid sample testing with the other pistols (including Glock), but it went unreported in the evaluation. Why? Because even though Glock only submitted one 9mm pistol, SIG submitted two (the full size XM17 and the compact M18). (Glock's XM17 submission fulfilled all the requirements of a full-size and compact pistol). What this meant was that SIG had a second bite at the apple. During the bid sampling, all the full-size pistols needed to run 12,500 rounds to pass the MRBS (Mean Rounds Between Stoppage) test. If the company submitted a compact counterpart, however, it only needed to pass a 500 round test (in addition to the 12,500 passed by the full-size). The assumption was that 500 rounds would be enough considering it should function similar to a full-size (which had to pass 12,500 rounds). As it happened, however, the SIG XM18 submission failed its 500-round MRBS testing. What's amazing to me is that hardly anyone mentioned this. The army actually broke protocol by ignoring the 500 round test. The Army's excuse was that 500 rounds was not a significant size sample to be indicative of a pistol, which is only half true. That makes sense if a pistol passes the test with zero malfunctions, but not when it fails. The fact that the P320 compact had enough stoppages to fail a mere 500 rounds should have raised a major flag, and the fact that went unreported should be disconcerting to everyone. In other words, if you've seen the color-coded ratings, they did not reflect the failure of the P320 compact. The fact that Glock was the only submission that passed the MRBS in the BST (Bid Sapling Test) should have triggered an automatic PVT for the SIG before it could receive the final singular contract. Instead, they ignored the 500 MRBS test and the result are the problems were seeing now. What I am stating here is a fact. This information comes right from the DOD and the Army. There's a reason why both the SIG P226 and Beretta M9 went through the PVT in the 1980's. The 12,500 round bid sampling test (BST) only serves to separate the wheat from the chaff. It was merely meant as a first phase of the MHS competition to award a contract to up to three bidders. There has been some confusion about the language, intentional or not, but one channel claimed people didn't understand the MHS RFP because they misunderstood the terms "candidates" and "contractors." They almost made it look like "contractors" referred to someone who won the contract (who would go onto the PVT). Not true. Up to three "contractors" were eligible for a contract reward after the BST. Up to three CONTRACTORS were then to compete during the PST (22,500+ rounds) for the final contract (going to only one contractor). The fact this article mentioned that shows that the only reason for mentioning the confusion in terms was to make it look like people didn't understand it, but it had no relevance to what happened. It's also important to understand that the RRP specifically stated that cost was not to be the most important factor. Reliability was much more important (price was actually last, and it was stressed more than once it was of little importance). Because the SIG P320 failed the bid sampling test that Glock passed, if anything, Glock actually should have won the contract because it had zero stoppages. What I would have liked to have seen is both the SIG and Glock compete-and any additional manufacturer whose stoppages might have been similar to the SIG (factoring in the compact's failure)-so we could find the best pistol, not just for our troops, but for everyone who looks to the armed services to take their cues (law enforcement, other military & government agencies, and civilians alike). That didn't happen. Moreover, as Glock demonstrated in their protest to the GAO (Government Accountability Office), the Army made many mistakes including the bid total for Glock. As the letter pointed out, the government appears to have inflated the cost because they didn't factor the difference between Glock's single 9mm submission compared with SIG's two (and they break down why that is). To make matters worse, the GAO simply rubber-stamped the Army's decision and blew off Glock's protest. Lastly, and what's most germain to this post, is that the SIG P320 failed it's MRBS rate for both its full-size and compact pistols, and one or both of them failed with both FMJ and special purpose rounds (hollow point rounds). The special purpose rounds are cartridges that are compared to the terminal performance of the M882 cartridge when fired from the M9. As it stands right now, the XM17, having failed the MRBS rate for special purpose rounds, is officially less reliable than the M9 it is replacing. Yes, the P320 passed the 5,000 MRBF with 8,929 MRBF (Mean Stoppage Between Failure), but the M9 passed with a 35,000 MRBF! Moreover, I don't think it's a stretch to assume, based on Glock's track record, it would have likely passed the PVT to win the contract if the Army had not prematurely stopped testing for a reason that was supposed to be of little importance, especially after SIG's XM18 failed out of the gate.
+ forum and brim, Facts are important and you've gotten some of the key facts wrong. And you really should've substantiated/footnoted each of your 13 paragraphs with the specific sources for each claim you make- in your entire long post, you don't offer any credible, verifiable sources or links- you just say you're speaking fact and that it comes straight from the Army and DoD. I've taken a screen shot of your post so I have the original and not one edited after my replies, and I've also copied and pasted it at the bottom of this first reply. I'm working, so I'll point out the errors of your post bit by bit as I find time. The basis of your argument has already been debunked with the facts (see links at bottom), and you've mischaracterized some of the Army's own words and data to form your flawed premise: Forum and Brim 16 hours ago (edited) _"I wish people knew the truth about this gun. It failed the PVT (product verification testing) the Army did last year AFTER it awarded the contract. In fact, it failed the bid sample testing with the other pistols (including Glock), but it went unreported in the evaluation._ _Why? Because even though Glock only submitted one 9mm pistol, SIG submitted two (the full size XM17 and the compact M18). (Glock's XM17 submission fulfilled all the requirements of a full-size and compact pistol). What this meant was that SIG had a second bite at the apple._ _During the bid sampling, all the full-size pistols needed to run 12,500 rounds to pass the MRBS (Mean Rounds Between Stoppage) test. If the company submitted a compact counterpart, however, it only needed to pass a 500 round test (in addition to the 12,500 passed by the full-size). The assumption was that 500 rounds would be enough considering it should function similar to a full-size (which had to pass 12,500 rounds)._ _As it happened, however, the SIG XM18 submission failed its 500-round MRBS testing. What's amazing to me is that hardly anyone mentioned this. The army actually broke protocol by ignoring the 500 round test._ _The Army's excuse was that 500 rounds was not a significant size sample to be indicative of a pistol, which is only half true. That makes sense if a pistol passes the test with zero malfunctions, but not when it fails._ _The fact that the P320 compact had enough stoppages to fail a mere 500 rounds should have raised a major flag, and the fact that went unreported should be disconcerting to everyone. In other words, if you've seen the color-coded ratings, they did not reflect the failure of the P320 compact._ _The fact that Glock was the only submission that passed the MRBS in the BST (Bid Sapling Test) should have triggered an automatic PVT for the SIG before it could receive the final singular contract. Instead, they ignored the 500 MRBS test and the result are the problems were seeing now._ _What I am stating here is a fact. This information comes right from the DOD and the Army. There's a reason why both the SIG P226 and Beretta M9 went through the PVT in the 1980's. The 12,500 round bid sampling test (BST) only serves to separate the wheat from the chaff. It was merely meant as a first phase of the MHS competition to award a contract to up to three bidders._ _There has been some confusion about the language, intentional or not, but one channel claimed people didn't understand the MHS RFP because they misunderstood the terms "candidates" and "contractors." They almost made it look like "contractors" referred to someone who won the contract (who would go onto the PVT). Not true. Up to three "contractors" were eligible for a contract reward after the BST. Up to three CONTRACTORS were then to compete during the PST (22,500+ rounds) for the final contract (going to only one contractor). The fact this article mentioned that shows that the only reason for mentioning the confusion in terms was to make it look like people didn't understand it, but it had no relevance to what happened._ _It's also important to understand that the RRP specifically stated that cost was not to be the most important factor. Reliability was much more important (price was actually last, and it was stressed more than once it was of little importance)._ _Because the SIG P320 failed the bid sampling test that Glock passed, if anything, Glock actually should have won the contract because it had zero stoppages. What I would have liked to have seen is both the SIG and Glock compete-and any additional manufacturer whose stoppages might have been similar to the SIG (factoring in the compact's failure)-so we could find the best pistol, not just for our troops, but for everyone who looks to the armed services to take their cues (law enforcement, other military & government agencies, and civilians alike). That didn't happen._ _Moreover, as Glock demonstrated in their protest to the GAO (Government Accountability Office), the Army made many mistakes including the bid total for Glock. As the letter pointed out, the government appears to have inflated the cost because they didn't factor the difference between Glock's single 9mm submission compared with SIG's two (and they break down why that is). To make matters worse, the GAO simply rubber-stamped the Army's decision and blew off Glock's protest._ _Lastly, and what's most germain to this post, is that the SIG P320 failed it's MRBS rate for both its full-size and compact pistols, and one or both of them failed with both FMJ and special purpose rounds (hollow point rounds). The special purpose rounds are cartridges that are compared to the terminal performance of the M882 cartridge when fired from the M9. As it stands right now, the XM17, having failed the MRBS rate for special purpose rounds, is officially less reliable than the M9 it is replacing. Yes, the P320 passed the 5,000 MRBF with 8,929 MRBF (Mean Stoppage Between Failure), but the M9 passed with a 35,000 MRBF! Moreover, I don't think it's a stretch to assume, based on Glock's track record, it would have likely passed the PVT to win the contract if the Army had not prematurely stopped testing for a reason that was supposed to be of little importance, especially after SIG's XM18 failed out of the gate."_ www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/07/09/mhs-failure-sig-vs-glock-depth-analysis/ www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2017/pdf/army/2017mhs.pdf
+forum and brim, Your claim: _"It failed the PVT (product verification testing) the Army did last year AFTER it awarded the contract."_ *FACTUAL TRUTH* from the actual DOT&E report: "During PVT, the XM17 and XM18, with special purpose munition, met its requirement for both MRBF and MRBS: www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2017/pdf/army/2017mhs.pdf - The XM17 demonstrated 8,929 MRBF (99 percent probability) - The XM18 demonstrated 8,333 MRBF (99 percent probability) - The XM17 demonstrated 1,923 MRBS (95 percent probability) - The XM18 demonstrated 2,155 MRBS (96 percent probability) It's important to note that the "special purpose ammo" refers to the expanding point 147gr ammo that is being issued for actual Field Use (for actual deployment and combat- NOT training). The Army, Sig, and Winchester may have already fixed the 115gr fmj training ammo problem (again- Training ammo). And your claim that the Beretta m9 (during the xm9 pistol trials) fired 35,000 MRBF is FACTUALLY INCORRECT: _"In fact, in the XM9 trials, no individual pistol was subjected to firing more than 10,000 rounds."_ ("Bartocci cites the 35,000 rounds fired in the 1984 handgun trials that led to the Beretta 92FS being adopted as evidence that the MHS trials were insufficient. However, Bartocci fails to note that _the 35,000 round figure was per system,_ *not per gun.* ") www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/07/09/mhs-failure-sig-vs-glock-depth-analysis/
+ forum and brim, Your claim: _"In fact, it failed the bid sample testing with the other pistols (including Glock), but it went unreported in the evaluation."_ Factual Truth: In the BST- Bid Sample Test, for Reliability, the Sig m17 was rated the same as the Glock- with a score of "Outstanding", which is in the official GAO report, page 6 Factor 1, Sub-factor 1, from the GAO in response to Glock's losing appeal to the Army's decision: www.gao.gov/assets/690/685461.pdf Perhaps the biggest proof against your claim that the Sig m17 failed the Bid Sample Test is the fact that Glock itself would've used that as a major point in their appeal- but they didn't claim that AT ALL in their appeal, which is outlined by the GAO in the "Digest" section on page 1: www.gao.gov/assets/690/685461.pdf Unless you post a publicly verifiable and highly credible source to refute what the GAO report shows, you've got to concede that the Sig m17 PASSED the Bid Sample Test. Glock didn't even try to claim otherwise in their appeal!
"And you really should've substantiated/footnoted each of your 13 paragraphs with the specific sources for each claim you make"??? This is youtube, I'm not writing a whitepaper for crying out loud. It took me ten seconds to get the DOD document. You can do your own research for anything else. That first link you sent, I read that already. I'm giving you primary source material, not some magazine kissing SIG's ass: file:///Users/brianmumford/Downloads/2017mhs.pdf
New to your channel... Excellent presentation. Great tech talk and w/ some good laughs. My 461 chainsaw fits my M-17 rail perfectly :-)) The flamethrower, well, not so much. Subbed
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
“Chain saws, grenade launchers, flame throwers....”. That is the best rail description of the week! Good one!
Thank you! Cheers!
He says it everytime he talks about a rail
My wife got the Glock 19x couple months ago and I just bought this on Black Friday sale at the BX on base. Went from $720 to $575 for the gun, 3 mags, cleaning kit, trigger lock, and case... and no tax since on base. Great review... as someone that's been military since '98 I'm ok with a little blemish from days at the range.
@tuberocker69 I think that's debatable. I have both the 19x and the M17 but I'm more accurate with the M17 for some reason.
Just fired my new P320 with Romeo1 red dot for the first time today and it is very accurate from 7 to 100 yards.
That’s awesome! Thank you and cheers!
how long did you wait for your Romeo1? been two months here.
😂
we tolow mine came with my p320
DONALD cooper disagree?
From an old retired Army guy...I was first issued a 1911A1. Years later I carried an M9 on two deployments. I also have carried 1911s and 92Fs as a copper. I love both of them. I got an M17 and I think it's the best handgun the Army has come up with so far. As far as the they guy in the video talking about what he likes and doesn't like.... who cares? The Army wants and extra safety because most troops who will carry a pistol in the Army, they will get very little if any training (machine gunners, 1st Sergeants, Officers, REMFs and a few others who will fire 36 rounds to qualify, then the pistol will sit in a holster for the entire deployment (except when going into the mess hall and having to pull it at the clearing barrel).
I have to say, i grew up sbooting Rugers, S&W's, Glocks, and Taurus. I favored the Ruger P90 .45 ACP until i shot the Glock 21 .45 ACP. I fell in love with glocks and found the Glock 17 and 19 to round off my fanboy top 3. In 2017, i had my first opportunity to shoot my first ever Sig Sauer. It was the Sig Sauer P320 9mm compact. I was used to carrying full size and only shooting a compact at the range. When i first shot the P320, i fell in love with and had to test it again as it felt right for me. At the beginning of tgis year, 2018, i finally purchased a Sig Sauer P320 9mm compact and have never looked back. Its been the perfect match for me and hasnt left my side since. Ive also not had any failures with it.
Love my M17, trying to find a small grip module. You're right it was about $650 and it came in a nice plastic case with 1 17 round and 2 21 round mags. I also bought the M18 slide assembly which is the 3.9 barrel. My daily carry is the XDm .40 in a BlackHawk Leather IWB and this Grip module (frame) fits in the holster perfectly. The imprint of the XDm on the leather is exactly the same as the M17. So I can pop out the XDm and drop in the M17 without any problem. Mine came without the "Safety" so I'm happy with that, I do carry with 1 in the chamber and I did try the drop test with a snap cap and could not get it to fire. There is a little lift on the barrel as you fire but easy to control after a mag or two, had virtually no issues shooting the M17 right out of the box. I did wipe off a little of the oil on the barrel and slide assembly but that was all. I shot brass and some steel shells without a problem. I put about 500 rounds thru it on the first time out and the M17 worked without failure. The second time I which to the M18 slide assembly and again it took a couple mags to get it centered and flawless after that.
Unfortunately SigSauer in Germany must close the doors because of the bad politics in Germany. All Guns now are produced in USA. In USA is much better politics for firearms production. Greetings from Germany.
It’s a shame because SIG made a lot of classics over the years
@@SoccerVJ2011 Not sure why it is a shame. I like having production in the US. More jobs and expertise for us.
Philco because now Germany is out of some jobs
@@Blinknone because he's from Germany. Do you understand?
you must like guns!!! come to America!!!
Moving from NY to TN in a few weeks and this is going to be one of my first purchases once I get down there
I moved from New Yorkistan to Georgia, it was like getting out of prison.
Quick correction for reference. The m17 is not cut for a Romeo 1. Per MHS requirement it was too be cut for a Leopold Deltapoint Pro. Supposedly Sig is going to release a new Romeo that fits on a DeltaPoint footprint sometime this summer, but it has yet to be released.
MuffDiverACTUAL has it been released yet?? Just got my m17 yesterday
I just bought one and I absolutely love it. Best gun I have ever owned in my life!!!
I appreciate your comments about the black breaking up the tan colour and agree.
I just purchased a P320 M17 and will receive it in a week. I’m a retired USAF Cop so I carried the S&W Model 15 (stupid gun for law enforcement) and the Beretta M-9, so I’m very excited to try this out. I’ve been carrying a Springfield XDs .45, but I’m getting older and thought I’d go back to a 9mm. This was a great video, and it helped to assure me that I’ve made a good choice.
Congrats on the M17! I think you will enjoy it. Thank you and cheers!
I've never had a problem with any of my p320s. My favorite is the p320 x compact. Love how it's shoots and feels in my had. Thanks for what u do.
That’s awesome! I love the X Carry and X Compact. Some of my favorites in the collection. Thank you and cheers Todd!
My favorite sig has Glock written on the grip
@@donaldcooper4330 so do my 2×4s
That’s what I carry daily is the xcompact. Most comfortable 9mm I’ve ever shot.
I have a Sig p320 carry and I absolutely love it. Shooting it side by side with a 19x and I honestly think mine is just as good or better and I bought a bare bones stock p320
Right on! Thank you and cheers!
🤣
I bought a p320 compact and a Glock 19x mos with a red dot and like the plain 320c better lol
I can only speak for myself, but I have had good experiences with the SIG P320. I shoot them as accurately as any handgun I have owned, and they have been reliable. Their ergonomics and trigger feel suit me very well. There has been rampant "SIG Hatred" on the internet ever since the P320 was awarded the US Army contract last year. Again, I can only speak for myself, but I have had good success with these handguns. Apparently many handgun purchasers agree, as the P320 has been a strong seller despite the hate and controversies of the previous year.
I agree that the 320 has gotten a bad wrap (as has the 365). I think no matter who won the contract, there would be strong feelings of animosity from the haters. Thank you and cheers!
@@KSGunGuy01 If you look back at ANY firearm adopted by the US military, you will find controversy, and major changes that had to be made during service. The M1903 Springfield, the 1911, the M1 Garand, the M16...all are revered today, but all had their issues during initial service. As for the SIG P365, that pistol did have some early issues due to SIG trying to rush it to market. I have a more recent P365 that is up to 800 failure free rounds. I love it and carry it every day. It really is an awesome carry pistol. Like with any gun I plan to carry, I always test them to MY satisfaction and I recommend the same to others.
Excellent points for sure! I especially agree about testing to one’s satisfaction rather than relying on the internet to make their choices for them.
Is a good weapon, in fact one of the world's top handguns
Hi, just pick my Sig P320f M17 today. After inspecting it and wiping it down to take off the packing lube I did lot of administrative manipulations.
It feels real good in the hand, the trigger is the best of the striker fired handgun manufacturers. The only thing that comes close to the feel in the hand is the Sig P226, P227, and the Beretta M9A3(M9A3 is a hammer fired handgun). I have owned this firearms for less than 24 hours and have not had a chance to take it to the range. But so far I like what I see and how it feels.
I too am annal about the aesthetic as well as the durability of the exterior and interior finishes. If it's a combat and or law enforcement firearm you'd think the finishes would and should be very robust on all metal and non-metal surfaces not just for aesthetics but to protect the metal and non-metal surfaces to increase the life of the firearm.
Currently my EDC for the last 25 years has been a custom handmade 1911 in .45 ACP by The Robar Companies. With the increase in 9mm cartridge and projectile technology lethality I'm concidering changing my EDC to one of the following Sig P320f M17, Glock 19X, or Beretta M9A3. Having increased firepower and weight reduction over a high capacity. 45 ACP 1911 and the current 9mm cartridge and bullet technology now has lethality as the .45 ACP of just a few years ago, i.e. Winchester SXT or Federal Hydroshock technology it makes sense to revisit what my EDC will be. Any input you have will be appreciated.
Thanks for your presentation.
Ricky from IBM, Ret. k4vms@comcast.net
P320, or glock all day. Berreta, nah, too many problems and they weren’t that reliable
I’ve got the non-safety version, it’s been very good for me, I’m very glad I got one.
Same here got the full size 45 absolutely love it.
Just got my M17 today. Looking forward to shooting it. Thanks for the video.
Im commenting as im watching and my answer is a resounding F'CK YEAH its worth it. I used to hate Sigs until the M17. Mine came with 1 17 and 2 21 round mags 🙂
Absolutely love all my sigs........ just picked up the 17 and is now my all time favorite one to shoot......and I own plenty of nice pistols..... but am having a blast with this one
@@trevorbraden5448 i really want to buy one
I like sig M17
but they said its shoots from it self is that right !!!
I hope you answer me (:
Just bought one for $700 👊 it fits so firmly in hand. Great weight balance as well.
I could care less about the finish. I just want a gun that is accurate, reliable, and will feed any round you can feed it. This gun feels great in my hands, the trigger is very light which I like. The trigger on my Taurus G3 is heavier which I believe can lead to being more likely to pull shots more. I will be purchasing this next week when I get paid and take it to the range soon. Great review!
I love this weapon but who am I kidding. I love weapons of all sorts and sizes. They all have their shortcomings as well as merits
Recently got the M17. Won't be my everyday carry gun, for that I have a Browning Hi-Power I brought in1974. Has been rebuilt and as gun people know is one great gun! My usual carry is the Xds .45. Nice size carry gun but have to adjust to not double tap as trained for soo many years. Got about 300 rds thru the M17. Some adjustment to the hi axis but no real problem. Like the trigger pull. After practice drawing now used to safety, grip thumb takes it down and stays there. Feels real natural. This will be my SHTF gun in a drop down tactical.
I do not carry a side arm for looks. This weapon system is one of the best on the market. As a modular system firearm it is one of the best.
My favorite gun. You won’t be disappointed. Especially fun to learn how to take trigger assembly apart.
Great video man!
Thank you very much Honest! Cheers brother!
@@KSGunGuy01 How is the PVD finish holding up? thank you
Good vid! I just bought an M17, im going to open carry this baby everywhere!
Its my understanding that the slides of the M17 (civie versions included) are machined to accept the Delta Point Pro, not the Romeo 1. So its fine that the rear sight is removed along with the plate because the Delta Point has a rear sight attached to it.
You are correct. Thank you and cheers!
Sold my 226 a long time ago. I could not get used to the revolver like long trigger reset after shooting mostly 1911's. I now have the M17 and I will be keeping it as my house gun. I have the 21 round mag and a Streamlight TLR-1 HL light mounted on the rail.
I just bought mine with no external safety and it came with three magazines. 1 x 17 and 2 x 21 round mags. For $680 I feel it was a good buy.
Got mine for 570 directly from sig
Great video as always KS! I’ve had nothing but good experiences with my P320 Carry, despite having to send it in to Sig for 2 week’s, and I’d happily recommend it to anyone looking for a solid, dependable carry gun. The only reason I had to send it in is because I bought it when they first came out, but according to Sig (I live in NH so I walked in and talked to someone) the newer made models of the P320 already have the recall done on them. I’m actually considering getting a .357 Sig Compact version in addition to the 9mm I’m already enjoying. The Nitron finish on the Carry is actually pretty resistant to damage, so it’s a shame the finish in the M17 is so subpar! Thanks again for a thorough and enjoyable video 👍🏽
Thank you Kratos! That’s awesome that the Carry is working for you and I agree about the Nitron finish. I wish they had done something similar with this one. A 357 Sig would be sweet! Cheers as always brother!
Well hopefully Sig learns from the mistakes they made on the P320 & and the P365, or I think they’re going to lose quite a few customers! I haven’t had the chance to watch all of your older videos yet, but have you had any .40 or .357 Sig in the KS gun vault??
I typically stick to 9mm for cost and convenience to be honest. I may try a .357 Sig at some point.
Ohhhh I totally understand that. The price of ammo has gone up a lot over the past couple of years! I enjoy shooting .357 Sig more than .40, and if you need a reason to justify buying it, just remember that .357 Sig is still a 9mm.......just on steroids!! 😁 Have a great weekend!
Kratos SonOfZeus “nothing but good experiences”
......you had to send it in for MAJOR flaws.
How fucking stupid can you be?
Thanks for the video. The first shipment of M17s came to the 101st ABN with tan controls. The rest that come from Sig will look like this, FDE with black controls.
My pleasure! Thank you and cheers!
Still disappointed hi point didn’t win...
You and me both
The new hipoint really has a shot at it.
LMAO
Cheap guys hot point .lol😁😁
I'm so glad high point didn't win I think sig is a better name and more popular high points on on the other hand are big, and ugly
Mine came with 4 magazines, 3 - 17rd 1 - 21rd. The ejection patern on my 17 is consistently out the side & NOT towards me. I love my M17 Thx for sharing the video.
Great video. The P320 compact is my go to edc in double stack. Thousand plus rds . . . Been flawless. Imo . . the best polymer double stack pistol ever. I will be investing in a x-carry soon with the Romeo red dot.
Thank you Stephan! The compact is a great gun and I’d like to see this in a compact build as well. Thank you and cheers!
Romeo 1 is trash. Many many problems with them.
Good review. I can’t comment on the M17 variant as I’ve never shot one. But I have shot the P320 and it didn’t feel right to me. Up until last Spring, I was an M&P guy and a Sig 226 and various revolvers. I decided that I need to get serious about my shooting skills and pick one gun to train exclusively with. So I rented a bunch of 9mm striker fired guns at my local range over a few weeks. While I was not a fan of Glocks, I found that the new G19 Gen 5 was perfect for me. I bought a new Gen 5 with factory night sights and started training, dry fire and live fire exclusively. I am happy with my choice. I’m not suggesting that Glock is better than Sig, my 226 was a great gun. I think we owe you a debt of gratitude for your reviews as they provide details to consider as we look for the right gun for us. Thanks.
Thank you very much! I agree, the gen 5 Glocks are great guns. I love my 19. I have heard others talk about the 320 not feeling right in the hand. An interesting finding for sure. Cheers Stephen!
Hey there KS I own 2 p320s the x-carry and the after recall compact. All in all I like the ease to clean and the modular capability of the firearms. My thoughts on this version well meh I own 2 as I said before. Personally I like the x-carry grip module and trigger. As always informative and non bias keep it up brother.
I think you’ve got the right models Vorka! I agree about the X series module. Very comfortable. Thank you and cheers brother!
Excellent review. Covers the gun good and bad in detail. I have owned and collected many guns over the years. We all have our favorites and are lucky to live in a time where most of us will find something we love to own and shoot. Again enjoyed your review. Thanks
Thank you very much! Very well said and we are definitely living in great gun times. Cheers!
Nice video I have a p 320 RX I’ve shot it over 3000 rounds through it is what I should of said never had a failed ejection or any mishap knock on wood, I love the red dot
Right on! Thank you and cheers!
Kenneth Erkson I’ve been thinking about getting the 320rx compact. Is the finish on it the same as the M17?
My brother in law has the 226 FDE with the Romeo 1 and I was hoping he’d want to sell it. He said NO! I did get his BCM AR-15 with a aimpoint compM4! though!
Fred Wilhite I have the Cabela’s p 320 RX I just looked at it not a scratch on it, I have 5 sigs none of them are scratched more than normal wear I have a p220 I bought 25 years ago it’s just normal wear.
Kenneth Erkson The only Sig I own right now is a M400 Ar-15. I plan on owning several more; the 320rx is on the top of the list. Is yours black? I’d like to find a FDE model; but I never saw one. Thought I’d have to buy the M17 and put the romeo1 on it. I guess I could get the fde frame and run a black slide. The function is more important! As long as it can get the job done just about any color would work! As long as it’s black,fde, camo, olive drab, or maybe grey!
It’s chrome upper dark black lower trying to send picture my comp not letting me.
I know the video is 4 years old by now but I just wanted to say that I recently bought mine for around $650 brand new and it came with 3 mags; one 17-round and two 21-round mags.
So far I've been really happy with it.
KSGunGuy A good topic for the Live Stream might be the evolution of handguns and phases gun owners go thru as we get older. Revolvers,1911's, DA/SA, and Strikerfired. Having gone through the evolution and age factor I notice several different types of firearm enthusiast. There are practical, tactical, shooter's, collectors and many other phases we go thru. Different mentalities on carry from CCW, Combat, Home Defense and SHTF . All experts of course! LOL. Just thought it would be interesting conversation. Thanks!
C, that’s awesome! I love the ideas and we will definitely cover this. Thank you very much for the suggestion brother. Cheers!
Excellent review! I own a standard P320 (nitron, no external safety), and fully agree with your experience: weak/cheap polymer, easily dentable/scratchable; weak/cheap slide finish, easily scratchable.
I would be contradicting myself if I said yes. I’ll stick by my non poly Sig stance for now. Great start to the video none the less. Watching on to the end.
Not sure why the made the RMR design rear sight exclusive like the TP9SFx. The finish really doesn’t look durable. Safe queen? I think I would take the FN 509 Tac at about $200 Plus extra dollars over this but I’m sure it will sell well.
Again, excellent review KS.
Thank you InSight! I too would go with the FN, without question. Cheers brother!
I agree about staying with the Sig Classic line pistols.
I have the 509 Tactical and the M17. I like 509 better, not to say the Sig is bad or anything. It definitely is what you would expect from a military issued sidearm.
Too much debate over this pistol...let it go ... it’s the Army’s now gun...
Fn509 tactical 9mm $650.000
Nice review as always. I looked at an M17 today at my LGS. I liked it but not blown away. Still considering it but may very well end up with a Steyr L9 instead... cheers!
Thank you MD! There’s always room for another Steyr brother. Cheers back at ya!
Sig 320s are awesome pistols.
I have 320fs fde and 320c as well as the fde. Also the x carry and the x five..
No issues with them at all.
Yes I'm sig fan boy...lol
No shame in being a fan! Thank you and cheers!
Daniel Butler traaaaaaash.
I own three 320's. No problems with any of them. Love them all.
@@christopherbarger6112
We all have opinions...
And your opinion is just that.
I've never ever had any problems with my sigs.
I've carried and use many types of pistols. They key is...in my opinion...maintaining your firearm arms...if you don't...yes they will have failures..
24yrs in the army has taught me that..
No firearm is gaurteed unless you do maintenance...bluf
got min in .357 Sig....yeah, I'm a fan boy too
I love the triggers on P320s and Sig Pistols have great ergonomics. I think I'll have to get one of these!
The ejection straight back at you ... that probably won the contract for Sig!
Military pistol ranges have a 1 to 1 brass reclaim...shoot 40 rounds, return 40 empty casings. The M9 threw brass all over the damn place and looking brass in tall grass sucks.
I bet the testers appreciated the nice little pile of brass at their feet!
They want to make life as difficult as possible for a soldier so this was probably a negative for them
Hell yes. Love the p320 line.my xcompact is still going strong after 3000+ rounds
I like having the safety's on a firearm never had issues with them ...nice looking gun
Although I don’t use them (unless it’s a 1911), they don’t bother me either. Thank you and cheers Taz!
I hear yah to me it just adds to having more useful options... and if one does not care for it ...well then don't use it ... have a good day take care
If it’s useable than it is dumb to not use safety, always use it on all my guns. Accidentally trying to fire is way better than accidentally firing.
I bought one of the very early 320s in FDE with night sights and the finish scratches so easily. Not to mention after around 300 rounds the wear seemed a bit excessive, akin to wear patterns you'd see in other pistols at the 800-1000 round mark. Having said that, there has been no corrosion or negative effects, just shiny metal and no FDE color left in certain areas of the slide. My biggest gripe is that there are so many cuts inside the slide itself that makes it a total pain to clean thoroughly for a guy like me where everything has to be squeaky clean. Also, these manual safety 320s are actually less modular because you must order frames that incorporate the cut for the safety, or take a dremel yourself to your frame.
As you mentioned as well, the carbon burns into the slide and frame a bit too easily and its something Ive never been able to completely remove myself. I have confidence in the finish to hold up over time but aesthetically in 15-20 years time, these 320s will look excessively worn and beat up compared to other guns like glocks and HKs which are seemingly timeless minus holster wear which is expected on older used guns.
If I did not already own a 320, I would opt to get a M17 because I'm a total sucker for the non-full length dust cover pic rail frame. But my 320 is plenty enough as is and like most every polymer striker gun, you've shot one 320 you've shot them all (sure with minor differences in the X models but for standard ones like this theres nothing extra to recommend getting a second standard model)
Well said Shaz! It’s unfortunate the wear is so extreme. That said, aside from the finish isseus, I think the P320 is a decent gun. Thank you and cheers!
Oh wow, never seen that happen with the finish on any the p320’s / M17’s I’ve had come through the shop. I’d send that back to Sig ASAP. Our range rental has 10’s of thousands of rounds and the only wear is on the internal of the slide where the barrel tilts.
Thank you for the honest review. You got a new sub.
Thank you very much! Cheers!
Bought one today. $650 before tax. Two 21 round mags and a 17 round. Couldn't be happier.
I feel like we should all get familiar with this pistol just in case. Lots of people keep an m9 around for the same reason
A good point indeed! Thank you and cheers!
yeah, I'm really thinking of buying one.
Just in case what?
@@jmackultra lol
Very thoroughly described. I like the look of the weapon but I don’t like the idea of hot brass getting ejected towards me even if it drops short of my face. That’ll be distracting for inexperienced shooters who might just want one for personal protection.
I just learned that Tx state troopers are issued the 320 as the standard sidearm
No they are still with the Glock 22
Great video, KS. I agree with you and the others who've already commented about the finish. I love Sig, love my P229, but the last few years have really been tough watching their quality control issues. I want them to succeed and thrive yet they seem, forgive the pun, to keep shooting themselves in the foot.
Thank you Aaron! Yeah, the finish is disappointing indeed. I’m not sure why they aren’t pulling things together more but maybe they are concentrating on the military stuff. Hopefully they will get back on track. Cheers!
Just get the normal P320 for $435 or $495 with night sights. Better than Glock in sights, trigger, and ergonomics.
Too bad it's not better in reliability. Glock should have won & if you read the results glock actually did win
@@nextlevelfirearms6585 it's plenty reliable. I'll never believe the "Glock is more reliable" argument when I've replaced 2 service Glocks for malfunctions with the same ammo as my P320 has.
Not my experience & not the apparent experience of a number of others. Glad you're happy with yours I, personally, would never bet my life on it. P320 we tested crapped out after 800 rounds steel case TulAmmo. Haven't had that happen with 226 or 229 nor H&K P30 & VP9, walther P99as or Glock 19 Gen4. Those guns all ate 2000 rounds of steel without issue. Stay safe!
@@nextlevelfirearms6585 co-worker 40,000 rounds through the X5, 2000 rounds through my normal p320. It's a perfectly capable gun and there's been no issues of it "crapping out". Also I never shoot steel cased. It's just all preference. I prefer my Sig over my Glock. I prefer my Legion over both. And I'm probably getting a CZ next.
Okie dokie!
Trying to purchase one today, along with the m18, you need more subs brother!!!
Very good videos, clear and concise information
I’m Here & Watching! Carry on
Thank you big J! Cheers brother!
Not trying to be nasty: but Sig's video says rear sight plate is NOT cut for Sig RX, as other 320's are: but are cut for the official contract Leupold Delta Point, a definite improvement IMHO! While I'm a lover of Sig guns, as both a former dealer for 15 years and a consumer, their accessory products have been junk! Strong statement: but I stand by it! Very recently learned Sig optics are manufactured in China and shipped as parts to US and assembled here!
Now you know why Romeo's, etc are so much cheaper than Trij RMR, Leu Delta Point, etc.! Personally, I think it is outrageous to force use of Sig Romeo's in all RX guns, except M17 contract guns which MUST have plate for Delta Point which would be only way I'd buy any Sig RX. Note Sig's site says different plate coming for Romeo on M17; but then it won't really be a M17 will it?
You are correct in the finish on the new SIGs does wear. My guess is they want you to buy more than one, to just keep one in the safe and never shoot to have a pristine one in the collection.
Sigs PVD finishes have a history of complaints. My first experience was on my p226 Legion. Its worn pretty well. I just picked up a M17-Commemorative. Not looking forward to wearing that finish out. :(
Hopefully yours will be better out of the box! That’s the key, I think. Good luck and happy shooting. Thank you and cheers!
Excellent review for the p320 M17. Keep up the good job
Great review! I passed on this gun the trigger clunk I just cant get passed when before fix they were crisp.
I do agree. I preferred the pre recall triggers. This one’s not too bad though. Thank you and cheers Youngguns!
You can always put in after market
I picked mine up at a gun show for $620, and it did not have the coyote color on the slide it was black anodized.....and I love it....
I bought my 320 early on , and I never looked back
Right on! Thank you and cheers!
me too
I served 15 years in the Army and made small arms master and Unit Marksmanship coordinator. I think people forget that when it comes to federal purchases, normally it goes to the lowest bidder with the basic requirements. Hence why the Beretta models were replaced because they were made cheap, also had finish issues along with the safety on the Beretta failing occasionally. SO if we go back to the 1911's, it was replaced because Da Actions were deemed safer and 9mm ammo increased round count and recoil was reduced. So the Sig was chosen from my studys because of the modularity and grip to accomodate female shooters and smaller hands, a better safety, the FDE color and price per unit. both the M9 and the 1911's were hammer fired. Stryker fired is the new thing so theres a few of my reasons why the Sig was chosen. Not to mention the Marine Corp had already fielded the M-11 also made by Sig. Again one manufacturer for all branches. Sig had a heads up because the M-11 had already been battle tested in Iraq and Afghanistan so why not choose Sig.
Very interesting! Thank you for sharing and cheers!
How does a beretta 92 series safety fail? The firing is moved.
Great review. Can't wait to shoot the M17 to see how it feels
Thank you! So far, it’s been a pretty fun shooter and when the ejection issues clear up, it will be awesome. Thank you and cheers!
Army uses 124 Grain NATO , slightly hotter than “range ammo” it’s all I use these days.... Never had a single malfunction in the year (purchased in Oct 2018) I’ve had my M17... the only wear on the slide is on the dust cover where the frame rubs ....not sure how many rounds I’ve shot through it, estimate around 1500
Shout out to Beretta! I love my Beretta 92FS Inox beautiful, durable & reliable
I agree on the finish. But aside of that very accurate, nice trigger also. Cheers from northern indiana
Nice Review KS, This Pistol is just not for me. That sucks about the finish, TFS Carry On
Thanks brother! Agreed on the finish.
I have had my Gen 2 p320 since 2015 no issues ,excellent side arm..
I’m not sure what the difference is in the coatings between my guns but I was cleaning my guns the other day and noticed heavy wear on my G26 gen 5 coating inside the slide where the barrel rubs and my Shield which is the hen one has no wear at all. My M&Ps tend to wear better then my Glocks and Sig’s.
Very interesting! I would think the Gen 5 coating would be crazy good. I’ll be curious to hear more reports down the road to see if it’s getting worse for you. Thank you and cheers Mike!
The M&P finish is outstanding!!!
Really liked your review. Good coverage in identifying shortcomings. Based on your review, among all others, I went out and purchased a P320 M17. I can live with the shortcomings, had to have it. Shout out to Centerfire Range in Olathe, KS. Great people.
Thank you very much! Cheers 24!
I brought my Sig P320 Rx compact with the Romeo 1 red dot for $762.00 & $807.00 after taxes in Maryland.
That’s a great price! Thank you and cheers!
As a retired Soldier and retired police range master, who has fired hundreds of weapons...first carried a 1911A1 when I was 19 yrs old, later carried the M9. After I retired I bought a M17. I love them all...but what you should understand when it comes to the US Army, most who will carry a pistol will get little or no real training with it. The training I got was usually “here’s your loaded mags, watch the target...shoot. The pistol for most who carry it in the Army is a decoration. It will never win a battle. BUT...they have to make it safe and easy to use...and the mindset is that it must have safety. I love my M17 and as far as an Army gun goes, I think it’s the best pistol they have issued. No body gives a shit if scratch’s etc.
While you may be concerned about the finish you have to remember this a combat pistol. It's meant to be used and abused. It's a not a shelf queen. If it gets a scratch just shrug and keep on shooting.
Understood but out of the box, it shouldn’t be missing swatches of coating in my opinion. Thank you and cheers!
About the iron sight being able to co witness with a rmr. The army chose the DeltaPoint pro for the m17 pistol mounted red dot contract. So the DeltaPoint pro actually has a co-witness sight that attaches to the rear of the sight. It is sold separately for civilian sales.
Do you recommend it as a first gun?
Depending on the role, yes. Thank you and cheers!
Nelson Gómez It’s a little big for concealed carry, but I would totally recommend it!
Yes. I haven't watched the video yet though. Had mine almost a year and I love it!
Im not a glock person. Trigger sight & grip just suck. I like my 226 & i will probably get one of these. I do like the 509.
Nothing wrong with that at all! Thank you and cheers!
Matthew Fransen 509, M9, 19X are all better choices than Sig.
@@christopherbarger6112 i would disagree. Stock glocks are nothing to be proud off. Take a sig in the field any day over glock or fn. Personal preference & experience.
If you don't already I suggest you buy a Taurus G2 as your 226 mags will work flawlessly in them. Also I'm a simple man if it doesn't have a manual or grip safety then I'm not buying it regardless of who built it. That said out of spite I'd buy a Sig over a Glock as they don't sue like a crybaby for losing and I really despise glock.
I love my 226 and my FNS-9
My M17 has become my favorite pistol. It is easy to rack, fit's my hand perfectly and the trigger is better than any other striker fired gun I have tried. Mine came with three mags and I paid around $555.00 US.
When they first came out, I went to get one and they were in the 950 range, I just bought one the other day surprised they are only 550 now considering I paid the same for a base glock 19 and you get three high cap mags , night sights and sight cut for the same price. Wnere the glock and fn 509 tactical versions are roughly 1k after tax even though the fn doest even pass any of the weather testing a d even failed the first test just submerged in water. where the p320 and glock passed flawlessly
**scratched finish and frame on day 1**
That new SIG quality.
A bummer for sure. Thank you and cheers!
Between the bad PVC coating and the drop safe issue I have a different view of Sig now.
I've been carrying a nitrided Ruger for 4 years that has much less finish damage. It would bother the hell out of me if a pistol double the price point of an SR was that worn after a day at the range and the manufacturer's excuse was "it's a military pistol."
Kyle Rainer The M17 doesn’t have the drop issue. Sig rectified that issue by redesigning the trigger group to fit the manual safety.
The M17 NEVER had a drop issue. Only the civilian P320s had that problem. Sig stated this from the beginning of the whole fiasco.
I just bought one at my local FFL. One 17 round magazine ,and two 21 round magazines , and a Sig light for $670 before tax. Thought that was a pretty good deal.
Its amazing how many RAMFs are experts on the M17 testing. They who have never been on a testing team, and are marginalizing the young smart patriotic men and women who did the testing, they (the soldiers on the team) were all asked their opinion as to what was the best overall weapon (SIG WON). One point that sums up all the GRIPS is "Those of little faith", who are against the safety, you probable have never had 50 soldiers on a firing line and you are responsiable for clearing all the weapons NOW and FAST without a visible safety. GOOD LUCK? How about a little positive outlook instead of trying to impress all the bystanders with your opinions. They were all good weapons!!!!! I am old enough to have used the 1911A1 in combat and could make a case for it against all the current pistoles. Why would I, to impress others? Am i going to change anything???? Lets run with this baby!!!!!
It's definitely not the best weapon... not by a long shot. It was the cost effective weapon. I'd rather our soldiers and law enforcement officers have the best.
Would have been much cheaper to upgrade the Beretta. So no it was not the cheapest option lol. A politician made the choice, I'm sure sig gave him a pay off.
@@someguy5444, would not have been cheaper to modify the M9, as what the military was looking for was in the name of the program: modularity. Part of why the P320 won was because of its modularity. There is a kit you can buy right now that will turn a full size P320 into a sub gun, just supply the barrel and chassis. This purchase will allow the military much greater flexibility going forward to build off of a simple foundation, more than the others.
@@dankinusmc1 I give the M-17 10 years, before the Army starts looking for a replacement.
@@someguy5444 and anyone that has served in the military knows a LtCol is the last rank an officer can achieve, before they become politicians.
I added the X Series grip module in the full length/size. Grip module extends to end of slide/barrel. The m17 mags fit perfect, and I changed the magazine base plates to black as the stock m17 grip module and mag base plates are Coyote Tan and the slide is a bit darker. I didnt want to go with 3 colors, so slide is original and the rest is black.
It looks very sharp, and bold. I was looking forward to buying this for awhile but did not like the feel of the stock m17 grip module, at all once I had in hand…Too wide I felt.
On the newer versions the optic base plate and rear fixed sights are independent. So with the right optic, you can keep the factory rear fixed sights as backup behind the optic! Awesome update from Sig. The trigger is good but not great. Dont feel it needs an upgrade though. Thats purely personal preference. ALSO, mine did not come with the bulky ambidextrous safety which I did not want anyways and would have removed.
Good review, but Sig has done a few things different on the newer models. Prices have come down a bit as supply has started to catch up with demand. I definitely recommend this firearm.
The P320 is my handgun I use. I own many others, but the P320 works best for me for actual duty. Not sure this M17 would actually serve a purpose for me. Looks great though!
I started with Glock and was Glock Or nothing for years. I have since gone through M&P, FN, CZ and Berreta. I am sticking with the P320 though. All the other brands I tested I could make work for sure if I had to.
It's indeed a great option. Thank you and cheers!
I have a berretta apx as well as the 320
Sig p320 M18 is worth every single penny. as my edc, this pistol is accurate straight out the box with a crisp trigger pull. I added talon grips grip tape and I tell ya it feels amazing in my hand. Over 1000 rounds put through and no issues. If you’re thinking about buying this just do it you will not regret it.
This is a video about the M17, not the M18
@@catadjusterZ not a big difference
@@judge5373 true
I’ll just keep my p226 thanks
No shame in that, the 226 is a great gun! Thank you and cheers!
I agree with you Steve I don't like the idea of buying a plastic composite frame, I'll stick with my metal frame guns
I’ve got a 220 that still works fine
Love my old West German P226.
Beautiful handgun, and many good features. I own many different makes, and they're all good. Train, train, train!
Thank you and well said about trining! Thank you and cheers!
Nope. I love my P250. Dead reliable and $300 or so nowadays on the secondary market. A striker fired pistol with a manual safety is dumb. Which is why the Army required it. Since I got out of the Army, I don't use dumb firearms anymore.
Excellent point! Thank you and cheers!
“Which is why the Army required it” lololol preach!
SIG spends more on R&D than most companies.
I have Faith in them this pistol and the smaller version will serve faithfully into the future.
Don't worry SIG has plenty of fantastic stuff under development.
Other companies still haven't successfully responded to the P365 and that amazing magazine they packed 10 rounds into.
great video
as far as glocks go they are over rated and not that great and yes i had g17 got rid of it and never will get another
Thank you very much! I completely understand. Cheers!
Not to smart on your part lol
The only bad thing I can say about is that the frame does feel kind of cheap compared to the competition but you can get one of the best Wilson Combat replacements for around 60 bucks anyway. It's a cool gun. I love fde/tan/peanut butter and big full size guns.
I wish people knew the truth about this gun. It failed the PVT (product verification testing) the Army did last year AFTER it awarded the contract. In fact, it failed the bid sample testing with the other pistols (including Glock), but it went unreported in the evaluation.
Why? Because even though Glock only submitted one 9mm pistol, SIG submitted two (the full size XM17 and the compact M18). (Glock's XM17 submission fulfilled all the requirements of a full-size and compact pistol). What this meant was that SIG had a second bite at the apple.
During the bid sampling, all the full-size pistols needed to run 12,500 rounds to pass the MRBS (Mean Rounds Between Stoppage) test. If the company submitted a compact counterpart, however, it only needed to pass a 500 round test (in addition to the 12,500 passed by the full-size). The assumption was that 500 rounds would be enough considering it should function similar to a full-size (which had to pass 12,500 rounds).
As it happened, however, the SIG XM18 submission failed its 500-round MRBS testing. What's amazing to me is that hardly anyone mentioned this. The army actually broke protocol by ignoring the 500 round test.
The Army's excuse was that 500 rounds was not a significant size sample to be indicative of a pistol, which is only half true. That makes sense if a pistol passes the test with zero malfunctions, but not when it fails.
The fact that the P320 compact had enough stoppages to fail a mere 500 rounds should have raised a major flag, and the fact that went unreported should be disconcerting to everyone. In other words, if you've seen the color-coded ratings, they did not reflect the failure of the P320 compact.
The fact that Glock was the only submission that passed the MRBS in the BST (Bid Sapling Test) should have triggered an automatic PVT for the SIG before it could receive the final singular contract. Instead, they ignored the 500 MRBS test and the result are the problems were seeing now.
What I am stating here is a fact. This information comes right from the DOD and the Army. There's a reason why both the SIG P226 and Beretta M9 went through the PVT in the 1980's. The 12,500 round bid sampling test (BST) only serves to separate the wheat from the chaff. It was merely meant as a first phase of the MHS competition to award a contract to up to three bidders.
There has been some confusion about the language, intentional or not, but one channel claimed people didn't understand the MHS RFP because they misunderstood the terms "candidates" and "contractors." They almost made it look like "contractors" referred to someone who won the contract (who would go onto the PVT). Not true. Up to three "contractors" were eligible for a contract reward after the BST. Up to three CONTRACTORS were then to compete during the PST (22,500+ rounds) for the final contract (going to only one contractor). The fact this article mentioned that shows that the only reason for mentioning the confusion in terms was to make it look like people didn't understand it, but it had no relevance to what happened.
It's also important to understand that the RRP specifically stated that cost was not to be the most important factor. Reliability was much more important (price was actually last, and it was stressed more than once it was of little importance).
Because the SIG P320 failed the bid sampling test that Glock passed, if anything, Glock actually should have won the contract because it had zero stoppages. What I would have liked to have seen is both the SIG and Glock compete-and any additional manufacturer whose stoppages might have been similar to the SIG (factoring in the compact's failure)-so we could find the best pistol, not just for our troops, but for everyone who looks to the armed services to take their cues (law enforcement, other military & government agencies, and civilians alike). That didn't happen.
Moreover, as Glock demonstrated in their protest to the GAO (Government Accountability Office), the Army made many mistakes including the bid total for Glock. As the letter pointed out, the government appears to have inflated the cost because they didn't factor the difference between Glock's single 9mm submission compared with SIG's two (and they break down why that is). To make matters worse, the GAO simply rubber-stamped the Army's decision and blew off Glock's protest.
Lastly, and what's most germain to this post, is that the SIG P320 failed it's MRBS rate for both its full-size and compact pistols, and one or both of them failed with both FMJ and special purpose rounds (hollow point rounds). The special purpose rounds are cartridges that are compared to the terminal performance of the M882 cartridge when fired from the M9. As it stands right now, the XM17, having failed the MRBS rate for special purpose rounds, is officially less reliable than the M9 it is replacing. Yes, the P320 passed the 5,000 MRBF with 8,929 MRBF (Mean Stoppage Between Failure), but the M9 passed with a 35,000 MRBF! Moreover, I don't think it's a stretch to assume, based on Glock's track record, it would have likely passed the PVT to win the contract if the Army had not prematurely stopped testing for a reason that was supposed to be of little importance, especially after SIG's XM18 failed out of the gate.
Wow! Very interesting stuff there and I had not heard about any of this. Thank you very much for sharing! Cheers!
+ forum and brim,
Facts are important and you've gotten some of the key facts wrong. And you really should've substantiated/footnoted each of your 13 paragraphs with the specific sources for each claim you make- in your entire long post, you don't offer any credible, verifiable sources or links- you just say you're speaking fact and that it comes straight from the Army and DoD. I've taken a screen shot of your post so I have the original and not one edited after my replies, and I've also copied and pasted it at the bottom of this first reply. I'm working, so I'll point out the errors of your post bit by bit as I find time. The basis of your argument has already been debunked with the facts (see links at bottom), and you've mischaracterized some of the Army's own words and data to form your flawed premise:
Forum and Brim
16 hours ago (edited)
_"I wish people knew the truth about this gun. It failed the PVT (product verification testing) the Army did last year AFTER it awarded the contract. In fact, it failed the bid sample testing with the other pistols (including Glock), but it went unreported in the evaluation._
_Why? Because even though Glock only submitted one 9mm pistol, SIG submitted two (the full size XM17 and the compact M18). (Glock's XM17 submission fulfilled all the requirements of a full-size and compact pistol). What this meant was that SIG had a second bite at the apple._
_During the bid sampling, all the full-size pistols needed to run 12,500 rounds to pass the MRBS (Mean Rounds Between Stoppage) test. If the company submitted a compact counterpart, however, it only needed to pass a 500 round test (in addition to the 12,500 passed by the full-size). The assumption was that 500 rounds would be enough considering it should function similar to a full-size (which had to pass 12,500 rounds)._
_As it happened, however, the SIG XM18 submission failed its 500-round MRBS testing. What's amazing to me is that hardly anyone mentioned this. The army actually broke protocol by ignoring the 500 round test._
_The Army's excuse was that 500 rounds was not a significant size sample to be indicative of a pistol, which is only half true. That makes sense if a pistol passes the test with zero malfunctions, but not when it fails._
_The fact that the P320 compact had enough stoppages to fail a mere 500 rounds should have raised a major flag, and the fact that went unreported should be disconcerting to everyone. In other words, if you've seen the color-coded ratings, they did not reflect the failure of the P320 compact._
_The fact that Glock was the only submission that passed the MRBS in the BST (Bid Sapling Test) should have triggered an automatic PVT for the SIG before it could receive the final singular contract. Instead, they ignored the 500 MRBS test and the result are the problems were seeing now._
_What I am stating here is a fact. This information comes right from the DOD and the Army. There's a reason why both the SIG P226 and Beretta M9 went through the PVT in the 1980's. The 12,500 round bid sampling test (BST) only serves to separate the wheat from the chaff. It was merely meant as a first phase of the MHS competition to award a contract to up to three bidders._
_There has been some confusion about the language, intentional or not, but one channel claimed people didn't understand the MHS RFP because they misunderstood the terms "candidates" and "contractors." They almost made it look like "contractors" referred to someone who won the contract (who would go onto the PVT). Not true. Up to three "contractors" were eligible for a contract reward after the BST. Up to three CONTRACTORS were then to compete during the PST (22,500+ rounds) for the final contract (going to only one contractor). The fact this article mentioned that shows that the only reason for mentioning the confusion in terms was to make it look like people didn't understand it, but it had no relevance to what happened._
_It's also important to understand that the RRP specifically stated that cost was not to be the most important factor. Reliability was much more important (price was actually last, and it was stressed more than once it was of little importance)._
_Because the SIG P320 failed the bid sampling test that Glock passed, if anything, Glock actually should have won the contract because it had zero stoppages. What I would have liked to have seen is both the SIG and Glock compete-and any additional manufacturer whose stoppages might have been similar to the SIG (factoring in the compact's failure)-so we could find the best pistol, not just for our troops, but for everyone who looks to the armed services to take their cues (law enforcement, other military & government agencies, and civilians alike). That didn't happen._
_Moreover, as Glock demonstrated in their protest to the GAO (Government Accountability Office), the Army made many mistakes including the bid total for Glock. As the letter pointed out, the government appears to have inflated the cost because they didn't factor the difference between Glock's single 9mm submission compared with SIG's two (and they break down why that is). To make matters worse, the GAO simply rubber-stamped the Army's decision and blew off Glock's protest._
_Lastly, and what's most germain to this post, is that the SIG P320 failed it's MRBS rate for both its full-size and compact pistols, and one or both of them failed with both FMJ and special purpose rounds (hollow point rounds). The special purpose rounds are cartridges that are compared to the terminal performance of the M882 cartridge when fired from the M9. As it stands right now, the XM17, having failed the MRBS rate for special purpose rounds, is officially less reliable than the M9 it is replacing. Yes, the P320 passed the 5,000 MRBF with 8,929 MRBF (Mean Stoppage Between Failure), but the M9 passed with a 35,000 MRBF! Moreover, I don't think it's a stretch to assume, based on Glock's track record, it would have likely passed the PVT to win the contract if the Army had not prematurely stopped testing for a reason that was supposed to be of little importance, especially after SIG's XM18 failed out of the gate."_
www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/07/09/mhs-failure-sig-vs-glock-depth-analysis/
www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2017/pdf/army/2017mhs.pdf
+forum and brim,
Your claim: _"It failed the PVT (product verification testing) the Army did last year AFTER it awarded the contract."_
*FACTUAL TRUTH* from the actual DOT&E report: "During PVT, the XM17 and XM18, with special purpose munition, met its requirement for both MRBF and MRBS: www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2017/pdf/army/2017mhs.pdf
-
The XM17 demonstrated 8,929 MRBF (99 percent
probability)
-
The XM18 demonstrated 8,333 MRBF (99 percent
probability)
-
The XM17 demonstrated 1,923 MRBS (95 percent
probability)
-
The XM18 demonstrated 2,155 MRBS (96 percent
probability)
It's important to note that the "special purpose ammo" refers to the expanding point 147gr ammo that is being issued for actual Field Use (for actual deployment and combat- NOT training). The Army, Sig, and Winchester may have already fixed the 115gr fmj training ammo problem (again- Training ammo).
And your claim that the Beretta m9 (during the xm9 pistol trials) fired 35,000 MRBF is FACTUALLY INCORRECT: _"In fact, in the XM9 trials, no individual pistol was subjected to firing more than 10,000 rounds."_ ("Bartocci cites the 35,000 rounds fired in the 1984 handgun trials that led to the Beretta 92FS being adopted as evidence that the MHS trials were insufficient. However, Bartocci fails to note that _the 35,000 round figure was per system,_ *not per gun.* ")
www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/07/09/mhs-failure-sig-vs-glock-depth-analysis/
+ forum and brim,
Your claim: _"In fact, it failed the bid sample testing with the other pistols (including Glock), but it went unreported in the evaluation."_
Factual Truth: In the BST- Bid Sample Test, for Reliability, the Sig m17 was rated the same as the Glock- with a score of "Outstanding", which is in the official GAO report, page 6 Factor 1, Sub-factor 1, from the GAO in response to Glock's losing appeal to the Army's decision: www.gao.gov/assets/690/685461.pdf
Perhaps the biggest proof against your claim that the Sig m17 failed the Bid Sample Test is the fact that Glock itself would've used that as a major point in their appeal- but they didn't claim that AT ALL in their appeal, which is outlined by the GAO in the "Digest" section on page 1:
www.gao.gov/assets/690/685461.pdf
Unless you post a publicly verifiable and highly credible source to refute what the GAO report shows, you've got to concede that the Sig m17 PASSED the Bid Sample Test. Glock didn't even try to claim otherwise in their appeal!
"And you really should've substantiated/footnoted each of your 13 paragraphs with the specific sources for each claim you make"???
This is youtube, I'm not writing a whitepaper for crying out loud. It took me ten seconds to get the DOD document. You can do your own research for anything else. That first link you sent, I read that already. I'm giving you primary source material, not some magazine kissing SIG's ass: file:///Users/brianmumford/Downloads/2017mhs.pdf
New to your channel... Excellent presentation.
Great tech talk and w/ some good laughs.
My 461 chainsaw fits my M-17 rail perfectly :-))
The flamethrower, well, not so much.
Subbed
Chainsaws lasers grenadine launchers 😂
You can never have too many! Thank you and cheers!
Every day I look at the M17 it starts to look more and more like a civilized Desert Eagle🏁
Enjoyed your comments on the firearm. Sig has been a disappointment to me lately
Thank you! I completely understand MP. Many have said the same. Hopefully they will get back on track! Cheers!
Everyone has their preference but for me, I love the M17
Crappy finish on the slide and easily scratched polymer, what's not to love.
A very well made pistol very very accurate and very easy to get to the firing pin for cleaning and i love mine