Why You Might NOT Want Coilovers (FM Live)
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- Coilovers are usually seen as the pinnacle of suspension, but sometimes cause more problems than they solve. Why and when would you want traditional suspension instead of coilovers? Do you actually need coilovers on your street car? This week on FM Live, Keith Tanner gives us the run down on the pros and cons of coilover suspension.
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This reminds me of a smoking tire podcast with some lotus engineers. When asked why they didn't use ohlins or other high end adjustable shocks/springs in their cars they responded "if we make it adjustable the customers will adjust it incorrectly"
Those Lotus guys are pretty smart!
They also said that they soent ages designing and setting up their cars so that if people change the suspension it won’t ruin the car. That said, I’ve owned two Lotuses and driven a lot on road and track, and they’re set up beautifully. The MX5 is set up like a hatchback, so can be improved upon.
Edited to add: the Lotus engineers were mainly referring to geo change on suspension deflection, designed to alter the handling as lateral load increases. If you lower a Lotus you mess that up.
Oh, and it’s worth mentioning that my 2-Eleven had adjustable dampers as standard… 😀
@RobManser77 Reminds me of a VW forum post where a VW engineer posted regarding the suspension design and construction. The Mk5/MK6 GTI suspension was +/- 5mm from ideal in terms of geometry from the factory. Bushings and component material were where cost was saved.
I guess my ignorant question would be:
for an NC3, does (or could) the Ohlins Road & track DFV have any advantage (for street use) over a Koni set up like you were showing?
by advantage I mean useable handling or ride quality.
The DFV makes the car much more comfortable
You guys are reading my mind with your video release.
Very helpful explanation, thank you
Thank you for the great wealth of knowledge in your videos. My wife and I just recently bought a ND and new to Miata’s. We look forward to see y’all at Miata’s at the gap.
Glad we could help, hope to see you at MATG!
You definitely will see us. We’ve started to save money to give you 😂
I think we should call the stock set up and Koni’s “fixed coilovers”.
"static coilovers"
@@nah3193 static coilover when its laying on the garage floor. Still dynamic when its being used on the car and spring rates working in. And thats why coilovers were known as adjustable shocks when they started to trickle down from motorsport. And have since have a few popular names for them like coilovers or racelands.
Coilover is called a Hi-Low kit in Asia
Yes fixed vs adjustable
Brilliant video Keith. It's amazing how much information you have to impart to MX5/Miata owners - thank you.
Yes, people still get confused about spring constants, Hooke's Law and the dreaded pre-load argument!!
For a future video, please could you tackle the subject of roll centre and the effect of lowering an Miata/MX5 on how roll is minimised or even made worse. (E.g. Lowering to varying degrees even to the point where roll is effected by lowering too much as the angle of the A-arms passed below the horizontal.) Also how best/easy/cost to affect roll e.g. lowering vs stiffer spring vs stiffer anti-roll bars etc.
Perhaps a white board and coloured pens might come in handy to explain the finer details?! 🤣
We'll pass that along as a video idea. Thanks!
HAVE A 99 MIATA , DAILY DRIVER, NOT RACING ON A TRACK. WHAT IS A GOOD BUDGET COILOVER FOR ME ???@@FlyinMiataVideo
I've pretty much decided to keep our 2011 PRHT SE forever because it's the last of the purist stick shift handling cars. It sits WAY too high and actually my Accord handles better, despite Mazdas Bilstein option and the Accord having 131k miles, and the Miata having 30k miles. So I've ordered Flyin Miata sway bars, end links, and door bushings. Soon to follow will be Flyin Miata coilovers. Then lower and corner balance, trial and error to dial it in. Finally, wider and lighter wheels. I like Flyin Miatas common sense approach of always considering cost vs benefit, as this is a significant investment--for a car I don't intend to track. Someday, it will dawn on people that there are no stick shift sports cars left, which should increase the demand for, and the bid on these purist cars. I rejected the ND Miata, unwilling to tolerate electric assist steering, despite its much more fetching qualities.
We seriously appreciate your kind words! That should handle great once the mods are done. :)
I started out with KYB AGX shocks on my first car, then went to Koni's, finally ended up with Tein Flex monotube coilovers, I def like the coilovers much much better. I have ran the Teins on every Miata Ive had since (4 of them). I havent had a need that they couldnt handle for my kind of driving. I do autocross and aggressive street driving so Im not doin track days on a closed track, if I did i would have set my car up much different
Do we have any info on how aftermarket suspension (also brakes and rotors) affects KPC? Does KPC know to adjust to the new components or is it calibrated to the stock equipment?
It should have no effect on KPC.
Wish I saw this before dropping 2k on koilovers for my roadster
Now the 100 dollar question is.. are the fox coilsover better than the ohlins at the track??? Lol
Big topic… thanks for the tutorial.
Sharing knowledge is commendable.
Glad it was helpful!
Excellent informative video. I was assuming I wanted coils but think all I need is quality replacements.
Hope it helped!
I really enjoyed learning more about suspension!
A few years ago I got a set of BC coils for my NA
It was simpler and a bit cheaper than sourcing parts for a rebuild, also no messing with spring compressors...
I had installed full destroy or die kit (top/bottom swing arms, and knuckles that already lower the car.
After installing the BC coilovers I found the car sitting way to low, with the bottom adjustable part as high as it could safely be.
I had seen many people setting coilovers, and even BC official channels showing how to set preload, and at the time I felt like I could really not mess with it, I assumed It hat to be set one way, and not used to lower (or in my case raise) the car.
I had to go to my local laser cutting factory and had them build 1cm spacers to put between the car and the suspension.
Now I feel more confident to go try and set the suspension again and play with preload to get my desired ride height, just gotta keep some of that droop :p
Thanks for watching and good luck with the build!
Problem: My Miata NC is bottoming out in the reer alot with an overweight passenger. Pushing on my rear trunk downward reveals alot of play. Im looking to make the suspension stiffer.
Story: I had all my shocks replaced. (i believe they are the same stock ones) and Ive been driving the miata fine with it bottoming out on more extreem dips in the road (very few) but now when I have my passenger, the rear right shock bottoms out on a high percentage of bumps when it didnt used to. Im going to have a mechanic take a loot at it. I feel that the suspension is too soft and the car wants to fly away when aggressively handling it.
The Koni Sport shocks would be a good option since you can adjust the damping to your preference. However, it's always good to have the rest of your suspension components looked at if you think something might be worn out.
I had coilovers installed by the previous owner, it was a day & night difference after getting them tuned (shoutout to Road2Race in Gosford). Great vid though, thnx :)
Having the ability to change the compression and damping are a must
I think that’s why sports motorcycle shocks are massively more technical
Than car shocks !
There are car shocks with adjustable compression/damping, it's not exclusive to motorcycles. However, very few cars come with them from the factory.
Good night, my name is Jacqueline ward.I'm looking to backshops for a car 1999 diesel walk on.
How could I get rich? I cannot find Average car parts that I place that I have when that I cannot find any
We don't know anything about the diesel world, sorry.
What is the rebuild interval for the fox shock setup for NB. I have a set and have read other shops posting that these are atv shocks and recommended rebuild interval is something like 100 hours with hard use.
They are not ATV shocks, although someone who can't see past the color of the shock body (or who was trying to sell something else) might make that mistake.
Any race shock that sees hard use should get regular rebuilds more frequently than a street car. The interval will depend on how hard that use is and how close you want to keep the car to optimal performance.
@@FlyinMiataVideo ok cool. I have been happy with the setup so far. I don't daily drive the car right now but probably will soon. I probably have about 50 hours of back roads driving on them since install.
@@fireonmytarget8937 Public road use should let them go for years before service.
I thought Mazda intended for the car to ride on the bump stops when driving hard, unlike setups found in most other cars. I believe this is why Goodwin Racing created new bump stops designed for lowered cars. Why did FM decide to detach from this idea and create a stiffer spring to avoid the bump stops altogether?
We also offer re-engineered bumpstops, because there's always a bump big enough to hit them. But all bumpstops have a very high spring rate, which means the car has lost the ability to absorb pavement imperfections when they're engaged. The transition into those high spring rates also comes with a significant decrease in ride quality. And of course, that spike in effective spring rate can mean a dramatic change in handling balance. By keeping the car off the stops, the car rides better, corners more consistently and is able to deal with mid-corner bumps better - which means better grip.
Mazda knows this, every generation of Miata ends up with more useful wheel travel before the bumpstops are engaged.
In my understanding you are not setting a car up with pre-load !
To the Most part , you are adjusting the ride height ,
The car is being held up by the springs, no matter how much you adjust them you are not going to adjust pre-load only ride height
Thanks for watching.
Your breathing is very laboured ... smoker ??
The only thing Keith smokes is other cars at the race track.
What about that little OEM plastic "gasket" that goes between the suspension & the car?
@adri1leusha We remove those when installing the new suspension, but you could retain it if you wanted to.
I ended up getting a set of coilovers for free that have adjustable lower bodies, which i know will have a reduction in shock travel. To set them up correctly from what I understand, I should remove the springs and adjust the body until I get the most amount of bump travel possible without contact of any parts. Then I should put the springs on and adjust them until the springs are slightly under tension at full droop?
The first part is correct. Once you've got the shock body length set, adjust the spring perch to obtain your desired ride height. It doesn't matter what the springs do at full droop.
I know the ones that come on my car are coilovers but I think if you call them McPherson struts most people will get it. And then call the coilovers, coilovers.
I have a 2010 PRHT and am thinking about getting the Koni stage 1 kit from FM, would you recommend the factory settings for an alignment or something different?
While the factory alignment numbers are "fine", we've got recommended alignment specs on our site to get better handling out of the car without sacrificing major tire wear. Those new alignment specs paired with a set of our Koni shocks and FM springs will completely change the character of the car. :)
help.flyinmiata.com/en_us/align-your-suspension-chakras-By4oIc2zj
I worked on bikes for years and surprised to hear this high tech suspension has been standard for years on bikes. The adjustment of spring tension is just regarded as preload and dampening is via a screw valve. Seems the same to me if not mistaken?
Yeah I made the same observation... sportsbikes have come with preload, compression and rebound adjustment and often high and low speed compression too for decades. Even then, many riders including myself will toss it out and get aftermarket suspension sprung and valved to their weight and pace. Interesting how this area of tuning seems way more developed in bikes than cars.
Very informative. Can you recommend a set up for 460 hp LS 3 autox car?
We'd suggest reaching out to our support team directly, as this could be a little bit of a conversation. We've got a lot of experience with V8 cars, and what spring rates and suspension work well for them, so our team could definitely help with advice and direction!
I’ve been toying with getting 987.1 Boxter as a weekend fun car,sadly cars are getting old now unless you can find an enthusiast owned car many are complete lemons,Many people who own these cars from new just followed the Porsche service interval,every two years is too long made even worse by having little use,seen 05 plate cars with 30k miles or less now up for sale for silly money,on inspection oil leaks,suspension shot etc,IMS issues don’t help,Will wait and get a gen2 car or just get an MX5 and mod it,TBF most main dealers are very overpriced and customer service poor. Good luck with the Cayman Joe.
What is your opinion of the pros and cons of full-length springs vs a helper spring setup, and what would be the effects of droop-travel performance?
Full length springs are best when they can be used. However, there are sometimes packaging reasons why they won't work so you have to go with a shorter spring and a helper.
For the most part a modern coilover is not too much different than a strut. The main differences being: height adjustability, and adjustments for bound and rebound. Some of the upper models have remote reservoirs. For 99% of people struts will do just fine.
Great video! Apologies that this is a bit of a crossover question. I watched the corner balance video. I have Motorsports shocks that do not have a separate spring perch adjustment. The only thing that can be adjusted is the preload. How do you Corner balance that car? Thank you so much.
If the coilover doesn't have a height adjustment option, then you can't corner balance the car. Feel free to give us a call if you need specifics or more questions. Thanks!
Pay attention to the "preload" part of the video. That is exactly how you adjust ride height and corner balance correctly.
Keith, one question no one has asked yet…
Without sacrificing comfort, what’s the best suspension for an ND2 with FM swaybars? (No budget)
I have eibachs springs on stock bilsteins and they don’t exactly feel as good as my g80 m3 suspensión…
Thanks in advance!
We've been very happy with our Fox Racing coilovers. If you take the time to dial them in, they are just as comfortable as stock, lightweight, and are one of the best handling suspensions we've ever driven!
I think going stock bilatein with 20% stiffer lowering springs was a newbie mistake.
Other than the fox, out of what you offer, which would be the second pick?
Sorry, im asking because I don’t really need height adjustability, corner weighting or any of those precise performance stuff…
I have been bump-stop tuning, using the bump-stop as progressive helper spring so I can a softer main spring and have car that can put it's power down on a classic British B road and then take it to a track-day and be stiff enough to handle that...
Here's a question, will the Flyin Miata Koni Stage 2 perform the same on an Automatic ND Miata or is it specifically designed only for the manual? There's a slight weight difference between the two.
The difference is less than 60 lbs. The weight of the car varies more than that with fuel load, never mind passengers. It will work just fine.
My car currently has Koni orange shocks, but the springs are factory from 1999. I notice the disparity between the front and rear suspension when going over speed bumps. The front is stiff and the rear has some bounce to it. I would like to uniform the ride comfort, while also lowering the car just a bit (not slamming it, but I would like to have a tighter fitment on the OEM 15in wheels).
What should I be looking for when buying coilovers? The car will be used on the street 90-95% of the time.
As Keith mentions in the video, you probably don't need adjustable coilovers if you aren't tracking the car and aren't going to fully utilize all the adjustments. Our Koni Sport shocks and FM springs will lower the car slightly, while keeping it very capable and providing some damping adjustment for ride tuning. If you want to go lower than that, or have a need to corner balance the car, then pay special attention to spring rates to make sure they are paired well to the car and the shock bodies of the coilover. Give us a call if you have specific questions or need suggestions, our team is happy to help!
I'm really skeptical about this "preload doesn't matter" thing. On all my vintage motorcycles, the only way to stiffen or soften the rear suspension is to change preload on it. It definitely affects the ride quality, mostly in a bad way. With high preload you get a spring that's harsh in the upper part of the travel but only slightly more resilient to bottoming. High preload is used as a bandaid for insufficient spring rate, which was a common setup practice in the old days.
I guess where this comes from is terminology. In the dirt bike world, we're hitting full droop and bottom-out ALL the time. Ride height means nothing except as a measure of stiffness and preload. In the street car world, we're always floating in the middle, so I guess the nature of that float matters more than what the top and bottom are like.
Exactly - the only time preload has any meaning is when you're at full droop. Then it affects how much force it takes to start moving the suspension again. That's what you're talking about, the harshness at the upper part of the travel.
But once it starts moving, the droop has NO effect. The spring rate does not have a "memory" of the droop.
Unless your perch location has put you in a situation where you are binding the spring (bad!), preload has no effect on how things work at full compression.
This question is for Keith please. I already have talked over the phone with two other gentlemen which went good but wanted Keith thoughts. I have a 2008 Touring which I got brand new. It looks like the rear suspension needs to be replaced. my readings are front both sides 15", rear driver side 13 5/8" and passenger side 14". Based on what I got from the video and my phone conversations, I was recommended to install the Flyin' Miata Koni Stage 1 suspension package (NC chassis). But, I don't want to lower the original ride height. Mazda has discontinued the front springs. So, there is no way to get the whole suspension kit from Mazda. Here my key question, 1) how lower I really get the ride height with the recommeded FM suspension package? I received two different answers already? 2) If I get this FM suspension package, do I need to buy the shock shaft bushings for NC - full set? And 3) If I decide to go with Mazda original parts for both sides, front and rear, your front springs will work? Thanks a lot in advance Keith! Juan Ruiz, DeLand, Florida.
Don't mix FM springs and stock springs, they have very different spring rates and that will have an effect on your handling balance. You'd end up with bad understeer if you used our front springs with stock rears.
In your case, the best thing to do is probably find out why your car isn't sitting level. Pull the springs and check the free length - if they match side to side, there's nothing wrong with your springs and you need to be looking somewhere else.
The ride height with our springs will be 13.5" in the front and 13" in the rear - assuming there isn't something else that's affecting your ride height. We don't quote the amount you will lower because we don't always know where you'll start ,the cars came from the factory with a range of ride heights.
I just came across this video Thank God..
I'm going to purchase coilovers..So what coil over brands do you recommend?.. I have a 2006 BMW z4 3.0si what kg springs may you suggest because I noticed different brands such as bc, ics, me, have different kgs I like most others use my car for sporty. daily occasional track day.. my bmw is completely stock if this helps
Sorry, we’re a Miata shop. We’re not familiar with the offerings or the best spring rates for a Z4.
I presently have a stock 2008 G/Touring. I don't want to track , just really enjoy driving on winding roads. I'm 73, used to have an Alfa when younger. Should I put anything on for the street.?
Joe in Hilton Head
Our Koni Sport suspension or Fox Coilovers will tighten up the feel of the car and give you much better handling without losing the comfort of a GT car. Both are very adjustable and let you tune the feel to your preference. In the end, it all comes down to what you want the car to be, so if you are happy with it as it is, then you don't need to do anything else :)
Re: droop vs. compression:
How do I measure this?
Re: Bump stops / travel:
How would I know if I am leaning onto a bump stop mid corner?
Measure the distance from the center of the wheel to the fender when the car is sitting. Then lift it off the ground and let the wheels hang. Measure that distance again and compare it to the previous number, that's your droop. Now remove the spring, disconnect the sway bar and fully compress the suspension at one corner. Measure again, that's your bump travel.
You'll be able to tell when you get on the bumpstops when the spring rate spikes up. Some setups might be on the bumpstops at all times when cornering, that will have a very hard feeling when you hit any bumps mid-corner. You can also put a ziptie around the shock shaft, drive through some corners and then check to see how far it's been pushed up the shaft - or stick a camera in the wheel well where you can see the shock and bumpstop.
I went from stock suspension to Xidas. No half measures.
Is it right to say that Öhlins coilovers use 'high quality' dampers? Are the damper valves and the other internal parts better/more sophisticated than stock? Can one say that Tein, Nitron, Öhlins are the same high quality (besides the obvious differences in valving, design and materials used)?
We can’t comment on the quality of the internal components of those brands. Design choices are also important.
You've confirmed what I've always thought about coilovers. You need to really understand spring rate, damping, and travel to set them up properly. It seems really hard to get right and just end up running like garbage. I've had fixed spring and damper custom suspension before (not designed by me) and that was great.
Thanks for watching!
I want to improve my OEM suspension without lowering the car. What would you recommend?
Good shocks and some sway bars. Something like the Koni Sport shocks with our bumpstops plus FM sway bars will have a fairly significant effect without changing ride height. Ride quality will probably improve, depending on the condition of your stock shocks.
Can you do a video on strut braces and the improvement they provide on each generation?
What about matching FM Springs with NB’s HD Bilstein?
Thanks!
We like the characteristics of the Koni shock better but everyone has their preference and that's OK. In our opinion, they don't have enough damping to control the FM springs.
Coilover = helper spring for compliance, adjustable height, rebound and compression or a sub-set of these
Well, adjustable height anyhow. All the rest are independent attributes. You can have any of them on a setup that’s not a coilover.
I have a 99 all stock, looking for a “stock +” option without the harness to have more fun in the mountains. This is our roadtrip car
Please send an email to our CS team (support@flyinmiata.com), and we'd be glad to help you pick a suspension package that suits your needs. :)
So if you lower the car by dropping the spring perch, wont you have the spring not even fully pressing against the perches when the suspension is unloaded?
That is a possibility depending on the various dimensions of parts being used. That's why some setups use a secondary spring.
awsome video - i just wish i watched this 2 years ago when i got my coilovers
I bought a Miata with tokico struts with FM springs and it feels slammed and I scrape a lot on 15 inch wheels. Is there a way to know if they are shot?
Please contact our customer support department and we'll get some measurements from you to help diagnose the problem. We had a few batches of springs from our previous manufacturer (around 2004-06 or so) that sagged over time. A set of failed NA upper shock mounts can also lead to a lower ride height, and that's a fairly common problem.
Thanks, Keith!
So you're saying the Ohlins are junk because they are 2 piece?
Junk? No. The Road and Track line are probably the best of the available cartridge style systems. But they are overpriced for what they are. They are technically a budget compromised system. There are a lot of people who are going to be perfectly happy with the Road and Track Ohlins. But once you start getting more serious about your on-track experience and understanding what matters most when it comes to dampers you will begin to understand why motorsports level shocks cost as much as they do and are constructed the way that they are.
@@peteberta4332 Then the Fox setup sold on FM, which is roughly the same price is better? I see it's sold out but just asking.
@@duckylucky6505 In my personal opinion. Any full length shock engineered for the application is going to be a better solution. The benefits however, come from areas other than ride quality. 90% of the time a cartridge style system is going to be fine. It's the last 10% where the differences will become more apparent, and most of those differences center around travel. In my personal opinion (again) I feel there is a better solution than the Fox shocks, but again that's just me. The reason I like the other brand has more to do with the design of the upper shock mount from Mazda than the components themselves. If FM wants to consider an inverted rear shock solution for the Foxs I'd be all for it. But I'm not here to bash on FM. I am a customer. They put a lot of effort and thought into their products and it shows.
@@peteberta4332 Inverted shocks are technically possible on an NA/NB, but you have to move the shock over in order to have the spring clear the halfshaft. You'll also have a difficult time sealing your trunk from debris unless the shock is fully encased and impossible to access. The small theoretical benefit (lower unsprung weight) is offset by the unsprung weight of the new shock bracket and the difficulty in trying to adjust the shock. Better to go with a lighter shock body like the aluminum Fox in the first place.
We have benchmarked our offerings against various suspensions and are quite happy with how they compare. Since we do all our suspension tuning in-house, if we don't think something is the best in class, we have the ability to change it.
The two piece nature of the Ohlins is not how we would choose to build a shock.
I built the DIY bilsteins for my NA, and when the car deweights the springs disconnect from the top hats. This has caused the springs to make contact with the threaded sleeves and has worn them down greatly. Would you recommend modifying the perch or top hat, getting longer springs, or using a helper spring? Thank you
Either use longer springs or a helper setup. There should be a centering ring on the upper mount to locate the 2.5" spring in the larger mount.
Excellent video! Wish you gave a bit more info to people about pre-load of the springs so this misinformation can stop. For those wondering, all you need to do is ensure the spring doesnt fall out of place at full droop. If it does, then you need a longer spring, not a spacer between the spacer as you will likely get into coil bind. However, packaging constraints dont always allow a longer spring, this is where the "tender" springs are used to help seat the spring at full droop (pre-loading). Otherwise a full spring is always preferred. There may also be times you have the wrong spring rate, however, none of these issues are appropriately corrected with these cheap catridge style "coilovers". As stated, what you want is an application specific design of the shock body, for the given vehicle, for a particular ride height range. Anything else is complete BS.
We've got an entire video on spring preload!
ruclips.net/video/eRJ9V8rSpwc/видео.html
I feel like this video is for people who are more educated on suspension than i am. I just want my car to roll less in mountain corners, also left turns seem to have way more roll than right hand turns. I have a stock 2016 ND 6 speed auto. Taking the car down the blue ridge parkway next year and want to have it in top shape. can you recommend the best product for someone who isnt going to want to tinker too much but wants to be able to turn more aggressively. Also i dont really want to lower my car if i dont have to I like the way the stock ride height looks and im partially disabled so having the car be lower would only make it harder to get out of for me.
If you just want less roll, that's what sway bars - more accurately called anti-roll bars - are for. They won't change the ride height at all and will have almost no effect on ride quality.
@@FlyinMiataVideo thanks, ill do that then.
Im on british roads and Im polybushed and have a stiffer anti roll bar. Left the shocks alone as i still want corner to corner compliance over our potholed and bumpy roads but the rest takes the roll and sway out of the chassis. Level compliance. For track use it may very well be different story for the user.
Just springs then?
What about changing the top hat (extension)for getting more travel back ?
That allows you to use a longer shock body for more overall travel. It's a good upgrade, we use it in some of our suspension packages.
A properly setup Moton 3-way for the win!
I notice that the FM springs are larger in diameter than other coilovers, like for example the fox ones. Do the spring sizes affect what wheel size and offset you can fit on the car?
The FM springs are the larger diameter to fit the perch of stock style shocks like the Koni Sport suspension we sell. This does mean the shock perch is wider on those shocks, so extra care will need to be taken when choosing the width and offset of your wheels. For example, our Kogeki 15x9 wheels for NA will sometimes touch the perch of the Konis at full lock. Smaller diameter coilovers mean you have that extra clearance on the inside of the wheel to run a slightly wider wheel/tire combo. There are lots of little things that can affect tire clearance, such as brakes and alignment, so if you need recommendations or have a question about a specific set-up, feel free to give us a call, we'd be happy to help!
How are you guys doing with supply chain on the FOX for NA? I got a notification the other day that they were back in stock but were sold out by the time I got to it 20 minutes later. I'm finally looking to upgrade from the VMAXX Classics that I put on the Miata 25k miles ago (they're feeling some serious age).
Supply chain has been an issue in the past, but we're hoping to have more inventory soon. Please feel free to give us a call, our support team will be happy to provide any details and ETAs we have for products if they aren't on the website.
The shocks are in stock. We just have to get some of the springs - they're really close.
Will the koni's effectively lower my '23?
Our Koni kits running our FM springs lower the car slightly, offering a nice balance between height and clearance. More specifics and info in the listing on our website.
flyinmiata.com/products/nd-koni-stage-1-suspension-kit
Hey Keith. Good video, you really understand how to set up a coilover. When you say there is only one correct length for a shock, aren't you technically more able to fine tune a coilover with adjustable body length vs fixed? For example, different wheel/tyre packages can alter the bump stops optimal point of engagement/maximum compression on a given vehicle. A car with stock 14" wheels will have a different optimal shock length a car with 15x9s and 225 tyres. Thoughts?
Well, the overall tire diameter of the stock 185/60-14 and a 225/45-15 is almost exactly the same, so you'd use the same shock geometry for those. But yes, if you change the overall diameter of your tire you may end up with a different ideal shock body length. You can work around that by using spacers under the bump stop (we do that when fitting 245/40-17 tires on an ND), but usually you don't want to change overall tire diameter too much. We experimented with some tall (235/45-17, if memory serves) tires on an NB years ago, and we had to handicap the rest of the suspension so badly to make the large diameter tires work that it was a big step backwards.
@@FlyinMiataVideo awesome. Thanks for taking the time to reply :)
Are the RF springs coming back in ?
We should have those back in stock soon. Please reach out to our customer support team directly through phone or email for more info or a more exact ETA. Thanks!
On the Ohlins DFV the ride height adjustment is an empty cowling that A: effects the total shock length (ride height)
B: In no way effects shock travel (no matter how adjusted)
Seems to me that the “inferior / cheap” coil over you demonstrate probably has the same attributes.
It seems completely wrong to suggest that adjusting ride height on these coil overs has any impact on shock travel.
By changing the length of the shock body, you are affecting the available range of motion of the suspension. The amount of shaft travel doesn’t change, this is true. Since the suspension linkages do not have infinite travel available, you run into other limitations. By raising the ride height by lengthening the shock body, you limit how much the suspension can compress relative to the car - and a lack of compression travel is weak point for the NA/NB in particular. By lowering the car by shortening the shock body, you run into the potential for binding in the suspension or tire rubbing.
Ideally, you want the shock body length that gives you the maximum amount of compression travel available. As you can imagine, any other shock body length is compromising the suspension. So that means there is only one proper way to set those shock bodies, and that means they’re functionally the same as a fixed length shock body - otherwise they’re inferior.
This is something shared by both the Ohlins and the cheap coilovers, yes.
Thank you for this clarification. You are suggesting that there is only one optimal shock length, but is it not more reasonable to consider there to be an acceptable but limited shock length range within which the linkages will remain in so close to optimal as not to have any real life downside?
Can you demonstrate in any meaningful way that shortening the shock length by 1 inch from OEM will have a real world adverse impact on linkage travel to the point of corruption of the suspension performance?
Are you really saying that the OEM shock is so perfectly designed to work with the linkages (seems like a big assumption here) that any change in shock length can only be negative, and by this logic any aftermarket shock must have an identical shock length to OEM or be substantially inferior? I’m genuinely interested as I understand your point at the extremes but would not think it would apply to small real world changes in shock length.
@@Nick72c If you shorten the shock body by 1" from OEM on an NA or NB, you're likely going to have your rear upper control arms hit the subframe. In the front, you'll put the front tire hard into the fender. Both of these are adverse situations that will lead to abrupt changes in vehicle behavior when the limit is reached. You can shorten the body a little bit if you're willing to eat up the tolerance Mazda put in there, but generally speaking you want the shock body at a length where you can take advantage of the maximum compression available from the suspension. It doesn't matter if the shock body length is adjustable or fixed, a properly designed single-piece body shock will be at that length already. And because the entire shock body can be used (instead of it being shorter with an empty adapter on the end), the shaft can be longer and thus there is more travel available overall.
And yes, the OEM shock is well matched to the linkages because Mazda got to specify both. They're not just picking parts out of a catalog. Especially on the later cars, it's very interesting to see how everything runs out of travel at the same time - there are little bends and notches that don't make any sense until you get the suspension fully compressed.
Thank you for the detailed response.
thank u!
You're welcome!
What about flying yada top hats extended top hats
Our FM top-hats are a great way to improve travel for the early NA cars. Unfortunately they don't work with coilovers.
Ah man, sorry I missed this live. Got hung up working on the Miata as it turns out.
The RUclips version is always higher quality, and we are always available through phone or email if you have any questions!
Adjustability responsibility joke was the best.
keep an eye out for the shirt!
I'm a big believer in a quality non-adjustable setup for a stock car, but what if you're building an exocet? I'm currently assembling one for street toy (think sunday cruising motorcycle, get out and enjoy the world, not a track toy). I want to maximize ride quality first because of the exceptionally poor road of Western PA where I live, but I'm also worried about a stock non-adjustable suspension running out of droop and causing weird handling characteristics.
Exocets are just Miatas, but the upper shock mount locations are set too high in the frame - probably because it was an easy way to lower one built out of a MOT failure NA without having to buy new suspension parts. Exomotive sells a spacer to bring the travel range of the suspension into the normal Miata range.
@@FlyinMiataVideo isn’t more up travel desirable? Or does it put the suspension too far out of its normal operating range?
@@gedavids84 Yes, you want as much up travel (compression or bump travel) as you can manage. It isn't infinite, though, other components have limitations such as the rear control arms hitting the subframe or the differential grounding out. You want your limitation to be the shocks hitting the bumpstops as those components are designed to take the final impact.
do you guys have any way of getting a replacement coilover for a set of the vmaxx track pack? my front driver's side has been blown since i received them
the website doesn't seem to have a replacement unit anymore
Reach out to our customer support team directly, they'll be more than happy to help! Call 970-464-5600 M-F 8-5 Mountain time, or drop them an email at support@flyinmiata.com. Thanks!
@@FlyinMiataVideo Is it not the same shock as the Extreme set? I understood it was and you simply crank the rebound damping up for the stronger Track Pack springs...
DO THE LIVE STREAM ON RUclips PLEASE
Tell all your Miata friends to subscribe to our channel!
As a Pro Auto Tech I go through this discussion with customers often. Most of them can't understand why they are in most cases better off with a quality fixed spring perch shock. They also are unwilling to pay for my time to tweak an adjustable coil over setup for their needs. They also can't understand that a team of engineers who knew what they were doing designed the suspension on their car for really good performance on overall road conditions.
I don't know about your last sentence. They designed it to fit everyday/body drivers in the old MG/Roadster sense. The MX5 blew by those standards many years ago. The MX5 today is (almost) like a slow "supercar" in a fashion. The factory inputs body roll and even the engine/road noise into the car. I could care less about classic "body roll" or engine noise.
I like my Miata feeling like it's riding on rails. Hit a curve/corner and "know" the tires will hang it.
@@waynepurcell6058 You can still get that with an aftermarket fixed setup. @bobdadruma is referring to adjustable coilovers and how customers would be better off with an aftermarket fixed setup that stiffened everything up. He isn't saying that people should "stick to the factory setup"
Still waiting on nb turbo kit updates
We are working hard behind the scenes to get ALL our turbo kits back in stock very soon. These are complicated kits with a lot of small components sourced from many different places, and it unfortunately takes some time to get them all together. We've been restocking them in small batches as we can, but they usually sell out so fast that most people don't see them on the site. We highly recommend signing up for the email notifications on our website (this resets any time we add inventory, so if you haven't done this in a few months, you'll need to add your email to the notification list again). For updates and ETAs for any product, please feel free to reach out to our customer support team directly. They'll be more than happy to pass along any info or ETAs we have for turbos or any other out of stock item. So sorry for the hassles!
@Flyin' Miata I have already signed up for email notifications, so the info on re signing up was useful and thank yall for the response, really wanting a FM kit over any other so hopefully that will come to fruition
Thanks for the info Keith!! Unfortunately I'm from Europe so I can't get FM springs so I'm stuck with only coilover options as an upgrade.
We ship to Europe!
EU here too, stuff is so much cheaper in the US that even with all the taxes added, it's sometimes (do your research!!!) still much cheaper to order from the US :) Do look into it!
@@miner4236 probably more than a months wage in my country 😔
@@johnchalkiadakis oh :( yea then maybe better to buy locally
@@miner4236 Im thinking about some VMaxx with custom springs!
FM recc having the Koni yellow at the middle with the FM springs. I would like the same set up (Koni yellow and FM springs, with the rear 12mm mount but would like to put the perch on the lower groove (bottom) Will this make it ok still as a good suspension set up? Or not comfortable/ messing up the suspension travel/ load. Thank you
It will have an effect on suspension travel and ride quality.
So why might I not want coilovers? Wasn’t that the question?
Because if you don't need or want to use the extra adjustability of adjustable coilovers, then you are spending extra money for no reason. A set of Koni Sports and FM springs will give you performance and a good ride quality without the set-up and cost of a high-dollar coilover suspension.