It’s an interesting conversation. I don’t think monolith commanders are inherently bad, but I do think that, as the deck’s builder and owner, you have to know whether or not you have a monolith commander and prepare accordingly. Don’t be mad that everyone is gunning to remove your Muldrotha or Winota. You know what you’ve built and how integral your commander is to your deck working, so plan accordingly.
I totally agree. I like to build decks that rely on the commander be in play, so I tend to follow the first rule: Don't make yourself a target, as well as wait for a moment that I will get a least some value or that I can protect it, or better, some other player make themselves the target, and when possible include some alternative commander ou backup plan.
@@snowmanO07 I have just never heard this creators take on those types of commander's. Been playing EDH for a long time and never ever heard that said.
There are synergies with Yurlok that aren't exactly manaburn but punish people for either tapping lands, leaving lands untapped, or deal damage for non-basic lands. Building around painful mana management works well for him.
Yeah that's how I built him. If you build him strictly as group hug then yeah, if Yurlok dies your deck does nothing. If you just build it as a jund burn deck it still functions without him, it's just not as fast.
I just thought It would be cool to build around untapping green and red creatures and manasink. Basically you untap your commander many times as you can and you use mana to manasink.
@@roberteldritch6285you just build a burn/punisher deck in his colors. Green gives you protection and cards like seedborm muse, while red is the primary burn color and black has draining and better removal to work alongside the rest.
I just run alot of protection and recursion if I want to play with these decks. I feel like it's kind of mandatory. It sucks, because it takes slots of things that could accentuate the value but to me it's just the trade-off you got to go with if you want to play these guys.
Great topic. In the decks I run with these types of commanders I end up taking up about seven slots with protection spells more than in a typical deck. Seems like a big investment just to keep your bit target commander running and not suffer from commander tax.
I just raw dog it. I like to play commanders that represent the majority of my game plan, but I also like to time them out so I have the big 1 or 2 turns before they inevitably die. I'll run some counters or a fog here and there, but I'm not puss-in-boots-ing unless I'm playing osgir and I can run a lightning greaves shop for laughs. Having a commander live for more than 1.5 rotation takes more slot than I'm willing to spend.
Massacre Girl, Known Killer was an immediate add to my Toxrill deck, now they're best friends. Edit: Yes, I know slime counters aren't the same as -1/-1 counters.
Helpful stat from Salubrious Snail that I have been using recently when it comes to adding key pieces to a deck (like protection): the chance of having a particular card in your opening hand 53% of the time requires that you run 10 copies of said card (this is based on 99 card commander decks).
My first deck was Omnath, Locus of Rage. When Omnath isn't out, the deck does very little. I eventually put some backups in the deck - mostly just X/X creatures where X is the number of lands I control. But also, the deck ramps so much, that I have paid 15 to cast the commander after a few removals.
I just brewed omnath but as a hidden commander. Will of the wilds is the lead, spitting out 1/1 elementals for ‘nath to see die and ping! Could be a way of approaching the early game.
I found it relatively simple to make omnath into a deck that didn’t have that issue. Zendikar’s roil, avenger of zendikar, warstorm surge, valakut, titania, where ancients tread give options for alternate win conditions that play into what the deck already wants to do
My Talrand deck is in this boat. It and two other creatures are the only ones in the deck to make any tokens. Rest is just spells. A buddy had a way to tap down Talrand every turn when I was trying to do stuff. Totally took me down, nothing I could do lol. My Arcades is the same
With Eriette you put hexproof/indestructible/protection auras on her first before you go for your opponents. She’ll still die to board wipes though…but then so will your opponents’ creatures you enchanted.
I'd go with Kaya's ghostform, unholy indenture and minion's return type effects, they can protect eriette but at the same time they're pretty awesome to slap onto opponent's stuff, so that if a boardwipe occurs, even if end up losing eriette, you'll get their creatures. Enchanting an opponent's creatures with all that glitter seems very stupid, even with eriette. i'd prioritize auras that draw cards, impetus auras, dead man's chest, vision's of brutality is a maybe. But i'd want creatures in my own deck if i put good auras in it. Personally, i think i'd build it in a more controly style and have a few ways to protect eriette as well to try to keep her around. without her, the valuey auras don't benefit my opponents as much or are actually detrimental, minion's return works with the control part to steal them if eriette can't come down and curses would probably be the secondary theme, since they're also auras.
I used to fall into this “trap” a lot when I first started playing and now i’m getting better at my decks being able to stand on their own without the commander. It’s a weirdly, satisfying(?) feeling to have your commander get removed and not really care.
A great way to do that is to pick a commander that will help you do something that you’re already doing without it anyways. With Rakdos, Lord of Riots, even when he’s not on the field, I still have a hand full of super impactful spells and creatures to play.
I've got like 10+ protection pieces in my Sen Triplets deck. It's worth it when your commander is usually kill-on-sight and grants you a ton of value if it survives a turn cycle.
It might be weird to say, but I actually don't think Sen Triplets is a monolith commander at all, because it doesn't involve pretty much any setup. I imagine most of the time you'll be running this as a very basic control shell, I would personally even bring in some traditional control wincons like Approach of the Second Sun. The dream might be to win with your opponent's hand, but you're not dead in the water if your Triplets get removed. It is a lot harder to just slam in protection pieces if your commander also needs a ton of setup.
@@astuteanansi4935 good point. I define Triplets as a monolith commander because there's not really any other card in magic that allows you to cast your opponent's cards from their hand like they do. I guess it depends a lot on the build of the deck.
Anzrag is def not a monolith in my opinion if you are not greedy. He also costs so little for the colors that I have had him removed 1-2 times and ive been totally fine. You just need him to stick one turn to get value out of him anyways. A gruul power matters skeleton with synergies that are still good with Gruul decks in gen will still be a powerful deck
I have a Yurlok deck, but it’s more of a group slug deck. It doesn’t require Yurlok to function. He’s just a thematic commander and a bonus when he’s in play.
I think singling out a commander and saying "if you play this commander your deck is probably really easy to deal with" is just not super helpful. There are ways to build a lot of modern commanders that make them "monoliths", but you can build those decks in other ways as well.
Yeah anyone can build a casual Thrasios merfolk tribal, but you still might die first cause you're opponents are scared of combo. Your opponents see something and expect you to build around it so they take the predictable steps to stop it.
@@jaredwright1655 here's the crazy part. You can just... say you're not playing a combo deck. I have a Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle deck that's Voltron rather than combo and even though it's a well-known combo commander, just stating that I don't have any infinite combos in my deck is enough to prevent people from treating it like a combo deck.
My Yurlok deck is more political group slug, I help everyone at first, then it gets a bit painful, then suddenly I've given one opponent a master of cruelty or a phage that's goaded so everyone looks at them as the problem lol
As a Fynn player, the amount of protection I run might look a bit... silly. But completely necessary. Always count on needing to protect your monolith.
In lack of a Jund Enchantress commander, I built Yurlok as a Group Slug Enchantress. He doesn't have to be in play, but it's ramp in the Command Zone for the "fun" enchantments.
wow Jund enchantress, that is really interesting 🤔 if I were to build jund enchantress I would go with Xira Arien (the old one) since she has absolutely no predefined play style lol
@@ry7hymThat's an interesting option to consider as well, yeah. Maybe one day they'll print a good Jund Enchantress Commander, but I might consider swapping Yurlok with Xira until then, so I don't pull that much hate.
Still need to finish my list, but I mostly went with stuff like Luminous Wake or Spirit Link that wouldn't be too detrimental to me if she died. Favorite tech is Floating Shield, can set it up to potentially protect Eriette, and even if it wiffs you can still get rid of it basically any time it becomes detrimental to you.
Playing these types of commanders successfully is a combination of timing when you drop the commander and having ways to protect it. There are many options when it comes to silence effects, equipment/enchantments, protection/redirect instants, and counterspells that can all help tremendously in decks like these. They won’t always keep your commander from getting killed, but will at least ensure you get enough value out of them that they were worth the casting cost.
I feel like this conversation shouldn't be referring to the cards themselves and monolith commanders and rather the deckbuilding nuance. You definitely touched on this, but it felt like a peripheral part of the conversation, whereas I think this is best suited as the main course. To me the takeaway is, when you are building your deck, understand that you will not always have your commander in play, and as such, if a card has a great effect with your commander but does nothing without, perhaps look for an option with a slightly lower ceiling, but a significantly higher floor. Building for when things are going well for you is pretty much the definition of win-more. So, for instance, it's pretty easy to build an Obeka deck with only a very few cards that are simply bad when you don't have access to Obeka. A Yurlok deck doesn't have to play bad cards like Mana Flare. You can build towards the fact that he ramps +2 mana. And in that case, even if Yurlok is removed. the complementary pieces (other ramp and ramp payoffs) are still strong. Maintaining a level of versatility and finding ways to layer your cards and synergies are highlights of strong deckbuilding. So to me the discussion is around monolithic deckbuilding, not monolithic commanders.
Glad you talked about this. I've been going on about this to players I come across who complain about their commander being interfered with. While it's still great to play commanders that unlock a unique strategy, the most reliable way to play, and honestly have fun, is often to pick a strategy that your commander ENHANCES, not enables.
Big disagree on this one, all my commanders are monolith commanders because when I play commander, I wanna do the commanders thing and I want that to be the central synergy/strategy of the deck, what way I don’t end up with generic goodstuff decks. I want my decks to be wildly unique in how they play/win. To combat the monolith commander problem, I just run way more protection/recursion/interaction that most people, or my commander has built in protection.
Great topic! Id like to add to the Rowan discussion. Once You tap her, the ability is going to the stack, so doesnt matter if someone removes her because it's a activated ability not an static one, like Rakdos lord of riots for example, if You have an instant way to pay life You should pay after activating rowan, if rowan gets removed before You get to tap, You just don't play the life, all of this assuming You can make rowan Enter the field with Haste, otherwise i wouldnt Even attempt to cast her if You can't portect her, that's My 2 cents on this!!
I play Eriette, and it's true. You don't want to rush her out. But I play a combination of negative and positive aura's. I also play a number of recur auras from the graveyard spells. She's not necessary, but good when on the board. She is definitely a monolith, but then again, white aura's have a ton of protection. Make her indestructible and protection from all colours. Suddenly she isn't going anywhere.
I don't consider Meren a Monolith commander, but any game I've played with her has been the same. I want her out ASAP to get experience counters going, but I really can't be surprised if she doesn't live a rotation. I need to protect the heck out of her unless the other player's boards are simply bigger. I think fewer players need to consider rushing out their commander, even if they are a monolith
As another Eriette player I agree and my deck is kinda built the same with a mix of auras haha. I've noticed Eriette isn't an immediate threat when put onto the field most of the time but she gets targeted when she either starts pinging for too much damage or if someone wants to take advantage of the positive buffs you've put on their creatures lol. But for the most part people will target Kor Spiritdancer or an All that glitters before they target Eriette herself
One thing that I find really funny is when people THINK your commander is so instrumental to the plan. Adun Oakenshield always gets removed, but the theme is recursion - he's just one of many tools to get back Channel/Evoke/Cycling nonsense. Henzie gets better when I have to recast him, and the rest of the deck is still threats. Shirei is my monolith, but with enough protection and other recursion options, that spooky boi does okay. I just have to be aware of it and plan for it... but he's the big enabler. Even when you have a commander with a build-around, you need a plan B. Rowan absolutely is a good example. If you have Death's Shadow or Shadow of Mortality, you're on the right track at least...
I always say you want about 2 - 3 lieutenants in your deck. Creatures (or some kind of permanent) that synergizes with what your deck wants to do so you have alternatives.
Anecdotal but my most successful deck in Brawl is my Drana and Linvala lifegain deck. The commander's just kinda nice! Shutting down activated abilities is semi-niche but a guaranteed flyer + vigilance + a big butt (toughness) just works so well.
As a boardwipe tribal avacyn player, enjoy the archenemy feel, it's such a fun and unique experience, everyone at the table knows if they cant remove it quickly they lose, embrace it, be a monster.
16:40 Eriette CAN be. She definitely wants to be at least. But you can also just run her as an Auras Voltron Commander, completely ignoring her first ability. But if you pair it with Sphere of Safety then you at least have a backup for if she gets removed if you're using her first ability. There are also a decent amount of Auras that are inherently back ups for her by themselves in both black and white.
We have someone in our regular playgroup who built Drana and Linvala, and then despite us explaining why them shutting off all activated abilities makes them a target still gets upset when we remove them on sight or after just a few rotations. You build a stax deck, we're gonna remove the stax pieces!
I have a friend that wants to make a Orzhov Vamp/Angel deck, and originally wanted DranLinvala as the commander but sees that as a potential problem for it. I think now he's considering Astarion as commander with a lifegain/life drain deck. I told him thats good, but very aristocrats style, a style he doesn't really take to. (I tried to get him a Ghen and Brenard proxy to get him to give it a go since he loves enchantment/artifact play but idk he doesn't see the value in sacrificial pawns)
"Pop off before you cast your monolith commander so that they waste removal on your 99. Save your mC for once their shields are down." Ah- Muldrotha 101. You know the play pattern well.
My Eriette has been a remove-on-sight commander, but it hasn't mattered; the whole deck has such an insanely low mana curve that I have enough to recast her over and over. It's getting enchantment wiped that hurt. P. S. Also I like monolithic commanders. I think them being the keystone holding it all up is what makes edh so fun. I have one out of like 24 decks that doesn't care what happens to the commander lol
You can tap rowan and pay all the life in response with ability on the stack, it is an insane card that must die every time. And only 15 of your slots are dedicated to big X spells or life loss because the rest is incedental and just rakdos storm
@@WokedOx Having a haste anthem doesn't matter. If she hits the field and someone throws an instant at her, you cannot respond with a sorcery speed ability.
@@astuteanansi4935 Haste does matter. When Rowan hits the field, her caster has priority first, which means you cannot target her with an instant before she gets to activate her ability. It feels similar to planeswalkers, who also have sorcery speed abilities. If one hits the battlefield with three loyalty, for example, you can't lightning bolt it before it uses a plus ability to add loyalty. If Rowan has haste, and her caster has paid life before casting her, short of removing the haste granter or stopping her from hitting the field, you cannot prevent her from activating her ability with removal.
Exactly what ryanmanning said. The correct way to play a rowan deck is to set up all your life loss engines first, set up a mass haste source, then drain yourself a shitload, and then play Rowan. At that point your opponents are screwed because her ability will resolve regardless of any removal, and then she pays for her own commander tax so you can immediately repay her and double the discount
I personally think it doesnt matter. Theres plenty, and i mean plenty, of ways to protect your commander whether it's shroud/hexproof equipment or auras or even totem armor auras. If you have blue, that adds a few auras that give shroud or hexproof. Just have to add those and youre good to go
Hey there, just wanted to leave quick props for what you are doing on this channel, found it a few weeks ago and you are taking edh to such a creative level. Will follow up in the future. Thanks and greetings from germany!
Not refuting that most people build Yurlok as a gift mana deck, but one way you could use it is a jund burn/pressure list. You run a lot of permanents that pressure life totals, and then your commanders ability can be activated during your turn to play out more of that stuff and also burn everyone for 3 at the same time.
As someone who used to have an Eriette deck, it runs fine when she's NOT on board, but the issue I always run into is the game goes from a 4 way free for all to a 3v1 the second I show her as my commander. So The deck's been taken apart. It was a good concept, but it's not fun to play.
I knew full well that Obeka would be monolithic, and that's why I added plenty of haste spells and permanents, as well as Hellkite Courser to bring her out of the command zone and give her haste. I also put other spells in that can end the turn just in case
I have a Hidetsugu and Kairi clone deck that is 100% a monolith commander and man... hurts a lot when another blue player bounces my commander for 5 turns in a row (personal experience here). Usually I don't like commanders like this, HdK was an exception because of how unique it is. But I rly like to build my decks around my commander to the point of it being waay better with my commander on the board, but playable in a mediocre way without it, like my Sefris deck with almost no reanimate spells.
One of my favorite commanders is Mairsil the Pretender which is like ....THE monolith commander imo xD The deck can do stuff without him but he enables everything and if he has been used a few times then he is the only way to use the exiled cards. I also tend to be the arch-enemy at my table xD It just makes putting in enough of the protection effects all the more needed. Great topic! Something to be aware of for sure when building a deck. Commanders like this require a different approach to build if you don't want to be constantly frustrated.
Mairsil players unite! He was the first commander I thought of when I saw the title of the video, but he's not super popular so he tends to not get a lot of content made about him.
10:57 Rowan doesn't need to be on the battlefield for the cost reduction. The ability checks for life lost at time of ability's resolution and then discounts your spells regardless of whether Rowan remains on the battlefield. If you have Anger in the GY, lose all your life first, cast Rowan, and activate the ability. If you don't have a way to gain haste but are able to start a turn with her, do your life losing stuff as separately as possible. If she gets targeted, simply tap her and continue to lose life at instant speed if possible.
I'm honestly constantly confused about how Don Andres got to be so talked about and built and played as a commander, yet Evelyn the Covetous who does essentially the same thing in the same colors went so far under the radar. Especially because Don Andres slots perfectly into Evelyn's 99.
Each commander has a weakness that revises how you would build your deck. I would expect either to frequently include the other in their 99. Evelyn steals cards but deck has to be built to get treasure tokens to cast those cards. It also tends to be a Vampire deck to activate her ability (unless you want to blink her). Don Andres creates all the treasure tokens you will need but deck has to be built to focus more on stealing opponents spells.
@@Dragon_Fyre Incidentally, Evelyn is also not a monolith commander because even if she dies immediately, you still probably have a functional vampire deck. You even have somewhat of a backup for her in Captivating Vampire.
Evelyn steals the cards, Don Andres rewards you for stealing them. The fact you'd like both in play at the same time and that their effects don't really make up for the other means they are clearly not the same thing. One's the enabler, the other the payoff. Not to say one is better than the other, mind you, just that they don't really need the same deck at all.
Very good video! My opponents will naturally counter things I want to do, which includes removing a threatening commander. I like the way you ask the question of whether the deck can function if my commander gets removed.
It's a complicated issue because the commander is often the thing that draws one to wanting to build a deck. For example, new Judith was my prerelease card from Murders, and being my prerelease card & an interesting commander, I resolved to build her. My early drafts of the deck, she was the main spellslinger synergy in the deck. There were a lot of burn spells to take advantage of her ability to give them deathtouch & lifelink. I think that build of the deck is probably potentially very strong & that if someone chose to build her that way, they could probably have a lot of fun. I didn't want too big of a target on my back, so I decided to tone down the burn effects & focus more on her ability to make imps and run more other spellslinger cards. Now, the deck is more about token generation, with the intention to sacrifice them for card draw & damage. The tradeoff is that it's probably a lot less unique when compared to other Rakdos spellslinger commanders (although probably more unique when compared to other Judith, Carnage Connoisseur decks).
I play uril the miststalker and they’re really fun because they got built in deterrent with hexproof. Once you start stacking up totem armors, you’re gonna need a farewell or an Edict effect to remove them. Yes the deck is monolithic but you can have some back ups like kor spirit dancer or if you got the cash calix, guided by fate.
It's like a Muldrotha deck and one of the main reasons I stopped playing my Muldrotha deck. Such a hard-learned lesson. People aren't going to allow you to keep Muldrotha on the table, that's literal seppuku. Packing all the protection you need for Muldrotha also removes the point of playing Muldrotha. Not having consistent access to Muldrotha basically means a Muldrotha deck is nullified. Nowadays, I actually have a removal-heavy EDH deck with Grist and teach people these lessons the same hard way. :D
Great observation. This is a concept I've been aware of for a while now but I dig the label you've coined for it! I tend to prefer decks that use their commander to compliment the strategy, instead of those that completely revolve around the commander and rely heavily on it being in play to function, as the latter strategy is much easier to disrupt (as you point out in this video). If I do decide to build a Monolith commander, I make sure to focus on one of or both of the following concepts during deckbuilding: 1. an anti-disruption package- if you're the Rocco player in the viewer's comment at the start of the video, don't get mad about the disruption, DISRUPT the disruption! Use counter-magic, protection, indestructibility, hexproof/shroud, recursion, cloning.... whatever you need to do to keep your advantage as ever-present as possible. 2. building in a complimentary side strategy- even though a monolith commander by definition must be in play for the main strategy of the deck to function, you can still dedicate a few slots to a contingency strategy as well. I've got a Prossh deck that is primarily a Voltron strategy, which obviously requires Prossh to stay in play so that it can one-shot ppl ftw. But if I find myself in a game where my opponents are heavy on spot removal and I can't keep the big Dragon alive to reliably shove it through, well, that's why I sprinkled in a handful of aristocrats pieces and overrun effects too! If I don't have Prossh out to sac my token pile to, I can just mobilize the tokens themselves to be my source of lethal damage instead
If you really want to play a ‘monolith’ commander-dependent deck, pack extra boardwipes instead of extra protection. You want to take out my commander and set me back 3 rounds? Fine, but now the whole table is going back to the Stone Age. It’ll buy you time to ramp and pay the tax or find protection.
If you're playing a "monolith commander" you've gotta have ways to protect the commander. Every Brenard deck could do with a selfless spirit. 1 free indestructible from the commander's ability.
I have to bring up my old Kathril voltron deck here. I loved that deck, it never won a game, everyone in my pod kept saying it was like the scariest deck they'd ever seen. Cause sure fairly reliably getting to a one-shot sized commander that's hard to remove and nigh on unblockable seems decent. But fairly, hard and nigh on still left a lot of wiggle room. eventually I was pumping so many staples into the deck to give it a backbone so that it wouldn't fold when people dealt with Kathril that it ended up being smarter to just sell the thing and buy a warhammer army...I do miss that deck though.
Isn't the Rowan example incorrect? If i tap Rowan and it gets removed the ability is still on stack already, in fact it makes rowan a 2 drop so i can cast and do it again.
so i realized while editing the video that yes, rowan's ability applies to himself if you recast him on the same turn. so as long as you can give him haste you can mostly get around this issue.
If rowan enters with haste and her entering doesn't trigger anything then you can activate her right away before your opponent can respond. It's still a mana ability even though it says "Activate only as a sorcery," this clause just prevents rules lawyering when you have "As an additional cost, pay 3 life" or whatever
Interesting topic. I run a Zangief deck (or Marikaa for the Universes beyond haters) and I feel like I absolutely pummel monolith commander decks, while also being a monolith commander myself. My friends who built Muldrotha and the Ur-dragon definitely hate the targetting that happens, and losing their commander once or twice shuts them down really hard. The idea that commanders are unique and dont have a lot of theme support outside of themselves is interesting
Got a neheb deck, it's the definition of a monolith commander, you just have to learn that your whole plan is out there for everyone else to prepare for, either wait for defence down or wait until you have protection, not every games it will work but most games you will at least have an impact, also within a playgroup having a lower level of power may help, otherwise prepare accordingly, make your deck be ok without the commander and oppressive with it in play, that way you always have an impact but the table will be aware
Related to Don Andres - My favorite deck of mine is my Yasova Dragonclaw theft deck, and it fits the bill. She isn't strictly necessary to the deck, as the rest of it still has plenty of theft and just general good cards that make it function even when she isn't around, but her being out has its own benefits that make it better - one extra Threaten every combat, but I also have stuff that makes her bigger, which means it's *very* easy to get commander damage kills with her. I think my only true Monolith commander deck is Arcades which...it's rough when he goes away enough times. I'm gonna have to revise that deck eventually with more protection and less jokes (because the deck is Arcades' Nuts, so it has a squirrel/ligma subtheme) to make it actually playable.
I had a Deck around Atla Palani, Nest Tender that only had big dinosaurs and eggs in the deck, and ran into this exact issue, so I ended up dismantling it and built a different Naya deck instead.
There are some legendary creatures that are too linear to make effective commanders. Rowan, Scion of War and Massacre Girl, Known Killer fall into that category for me and are best used in the 99 of other decks. Rowan is going in my Licia deck, which benefits from gaining and losing life. Not only is she an alternative way of reducing Licia’s cost, but the deck is about 50% black spells, some of which are very expensive to cast. Massacre Girl is going in my Kelsien deck and is essentially replacing Everlasting Torment as a wither damage modifier. I’m fine with giving up preventing life gain if I can draw a few cards off of it. Kelsien is meant to draw hate away from the other creatures and even if she were to be targeted, this version uses flicker effects to avoid removal.
Great video! This is definitely an interesting topic. I really think it boils down to the perceived power level for each commander. As we all know some commanders are definitely more powerful than others. I used to run k'rrik in my play group but after the first couple games everyone else got tired of it and killed it immediately. This is a very interesting way to look at each commander for sure. Keep up the good work!
My Bruenor Battlehammer deck has been one of my most consistent win and fun to play decks, no one expects him to be a shroud 40/40 with double strike out of nowhere with cards like Reaver cleaver, Academy manufactor, Trailblazer boots and All that glitters. but its exactly built with the fact he is gonna be zapped constantly, but on turn 4/5 when you have like 50 treasure to work with that tax in meaningless and he is heading for the person who zapped him next, and Kediss is just even more dirty in the deck to dunk a win.
I remember being excited to build Mairsil and Obeka when they both came out. But I eventually learned how much the deck relied on them. It became a feel bad for everyone. Had to deconstruct them.
I am personally a massive monolith commander fan. I play low-mid power magic mostly, and I came into this format from yugioh 3-4 years ago, where I primarily played ‘boss monster’ decks. The appeal of commander to me (and a lot of friends) is having a central creature a deck is played around. Plenty of the problems faced by playing these commanders can be alleviated by a rule zero discussion, especially at lower power levels.
Never heard the term monolithic commander. But it fits. I learned early on that decks need the commander to be support not its entire process. Most decks that rely to heavily on the commander are usually obviously too reliant on the commander. Most knowledgeable players will just pop it on site, the rest of the time it will be a casualty to board wipes. Makes for a frustrating play experience in either case.
Rocco is a fun example of this. I've played basically nothing but Rocco since he released since Impulse Draw and casting stuff from exile is one of my favorite mechanics. On the surface, a food and a +1/+1 counter is what your opponents give you to draw a free extra card every turn. They make that choice, and a lot of people I play like the free extra cards but suddenly, a couple turns pass and you have 3-4 creatures with double digit stats because everyone wanted to keep getting free cards. It's a fun mind game to see how much people give you before they bite off a bit more than they can chew (pun intended)
To play devils advocate, I don't think Eriette is a monolithic commander, as both players and opponents have plenty of options. Decks have other win conditions like "suns grace", "empty throne" and buffed aura creatures. Eriette early game doesn't pose much of threat, most people lose more life on shocklands. With the amount of game ending commanders (Voja, Anzrag), something that requires multiple turns to drain opponents out isn't too much of an immediate threat. She can also be controlled by destroying aura's to keep her in check. As for her defensive abilities, while you can build around it, I like it as a bonus and works well with cards like "clawing torment" and "dead mans chest" your going to cast on your opponent anyway
I've been playing magic for what will be 19 years this summer. What I can say about multi-player magic is, build like you're going to be playing arch enemy, because at some point, you will be the target, and losing because of a gang beating is no fun.
Kinda the point of commander, unless you are playing with combos that do not depend on the commander. If you don't build into the commander you risk every Grixis as an example deck being the same deck, you want to leverage your commanders abilities.
I have a Toxrill deck, but I can use the Kill on Sight status to distract my opponents from a combo I have to set up. Basically, I bring out Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, then Kormus Bell. I then play Toxrill untill he sticks, then End Turn to KILL ALL MY OPPONENTS' LANDS! As it's also continuous, it's pretty much game.
I will say on the Concept of Monolith Commanders, that it is possible and doable to make the deck function with your commander still being the biggest stick in the pile, so to say. As an Example, my Yurlock Deck is a Jund Turbofog Pain Deck, so even if I never get Yurlock out, there will still be pain. And more importantly, I can still win even if I never cast him Successfully. The Eriette Deck could easily be Backboned with Death and Taxes, using Removal and Holy Days as Back up if Eriette is on the Board.
No, All that Glitters definitely goes on your creature and it pumps based on the other auras you control(that are on opponent's creatures). It's the duality of aura's that make Eriette not a monolith commander. Her abilities are a bonus, period. You build her to take advantage of auras you might not otherwise consider. It's in Orzhov so all of those Pacify and Minions Returns just compound with cards like Hateful Eidolon. I want to build her because it's a unique Aristocrats philosophy of building Enchantress. I urge you to rethink Eriette and the strategy around her. Edit: Think of her as a Control Enchantress with Aristocrat tendencies.
I have a yurlok deck and my commander very rarely gets removed often. I have a lot of effects of "any player may activate this ability" in my deck and I leverage that on top of giving other people mana while I churn out advantage. Xantcha is a staple in the deck and she motivates other players to use the jund mana I give them to draw a card. Sometimes with commanders like these, you need to double down on the effect all while not making it oppressive and you won't have to deal with the removal until it's too late for the opposition
Without a deck list I am only able to talk theory on Rocco, Street Chef as a commander. That being said I did net deck and test it against 3 of my decks to see what it does well and where it falls short in Table Top Simulator. Rocco will typically die after the first turn cycle of play if it does not make any deals to draw aggression away from the commander. Due to it being 3 mana it comes out faster than most decks but not all of them, this means in a pod with 2 mana commanders or lower they can be the targets and Rocco could survive. However for every turn it sticks around you open the amount of options you can do and are generally limited to the impulse drawn card the turn after Rocco is played. This means after Rocco hits the field everyone knows exactly what you will be doing next turn if it hits anything that is not a land. In the case of a land they know Rocco gets bigger and you make a food and will likely play something that capitalizes on this fact like a creature to spread the counters out or something that cares about artifacts/food. Your opponents can opt out of Rocco. This makes Rocco significantly less threatening and is likely what will happen until you have enough value on the board that "well me playing a land from exile won't hurt me, he already has a 10/10 it being 11/11 doesn't mean much." The Rocco deck I played features: 18 cards that care about food/artifacts 5 cards that care about counters/power 30 cards that care about exile/outside your hand Rocco did win on turn 12 with the commander being removed 3 times twice was due to him exiling someone's removal spell and Rocco being the best choice on turns 4 and 8. The third instance was on the start of turn 7 on Rocco's turn being countered by Bar the Gate.
One element I think is important when considering a monolith commander is built in protection. I'll give 2 anecdotal examples. I have 2 decks, one that is a monolith and one that could be mistaken for a monolith. Deck 1: I have a Narset Enlightened Master deck. No creatures in the deck, built around Narset. Now normally that is risky, but Narset has Hexproof built in to her. So now a lot of common removal options don't work against her without some additional hoops. Board wipes still work, and any cards that remove Hexproof, but that is more investment than a 1 mana Swords or Path. So as a monolith I can generally count on Narset sticking around even as a lightning rod. This doesn't even account for the protection and interaction I run in the deck. Deck 2: I have a Xenagos, God of Revels Deck built around big stompy creatures. Xenagos doubles their power and gives them haste. The deck wants Xenagos to be on the board. It still functions without him, but not nearly as well. However Xenagos himself has 2 things shielding him. The first is the Indestructible keyword. The second is the fact that he isn't a creature unless you have a high enough devotion. Removal for Indestructible enchantments is less common than for creatures. So he is likely to stick around. There is also the fact that if he does stick around he might not even be the biggest target ad I'm likely to have some big stompy creature on board that'll still be big and stompy without Xenagos.
I play with a fairly experienced playgroup and I have a deck with Klauth, Unrivaled Ancient as the commander. My advice for commander players who’s commanders are absolute removal magnets is to build the deck with the expectation that your commander isn’t going to last forever. Make sure the deck still functions well without the commander, and is only accelerated by your commander’s presence
As a Gitrog player...it is quite a bit harder without him. It's not so much removal, because the deck can combo enough at instant speed that it doesn't matter. The main problem is Drannith Magistrate.
Building a great deck first that becomes an even better when the commander is out has been the most successful way to play in my experience. My budget Lier Rogues deck is probably the most egregious example in my collection; undoubtedly my highest win rate deck and 95% of each game, I’m usually throwing out a ton of cantrips, playing unblockables and not touching the commander at all, and when I do cast him it’s either because I’m about to win or it will give me the push I need to take the w next turn.
Great video concept! This is very important for the format overall. Some people end up being way too salty because they built their decks way too much centered on their commander. Monolith type Commanders require extra protection, lots of reanimation or at the very least a ton of mana production. But no matter what, you need to have a plan B. A way to play without your commander. A different focus perhaps. Using Brenard, you could easily have Chulane in the 99 as a back up commander who works with the strategy either way.
Finally we can compare Don Andres, who wants you to steal creatures, but won't be missed TOO much if they don't hit to board, to Marchesa of the Black Rose. Still stealing creatures, but your deck is gonna do a LOT less if you're not attacking w/ dethrone active or sacrificing creatures with Marchesa out to make them perma-yours.
Esika//prismatic bridge superfriends is my favorite commander deck and it’s one of those commanders that never has to come out of the command zone to be a good deck you just control the board blow everything up and play the best planeswalkers in mtg. Pretty simple.
There's tons of ways to get wither/infect. Massacre girl totally works without being around, id say it hangs on the edge of monolith. She is important but also not a necessity especially if you can get here ability to trigger a lot before she is removed.
I got suckered into making both Ghen and Obeka, and I'm not at all bummed. If Ghen gets targeted and is not protected by an aura, I can still sling enchantments that ruin peoples' days, and I have backup like Fires of Invention and Demon of Fate's Design. Plus a ton of board control and forced sacrifice. With Obeka I have backup and protection for days, and I can likely still cheat stuff out, steal stuff, and wreck people without her if I need to -- I just don't get to keep the stuff I cheat out. So if you're going to build a commander that's considered a monolith, you absolutely need to have an alternate plan. Plus, you can't go in and just assume that you'll be the only target. There are three other people who will likely be playing stuff that's just as problematic -- and people aren't always going to have removal for you. So if you dumped resources into a commander deck that turns out to be monolithic, don't get discouraged.
I play very successfully as a monolith commander player. It's simple, you build your decks with a lot of resilience and redundancy to ensure it takes a load of counter play from multiple players to maybe stop you. I like to be the archenemy and I build around that. It's definitely a skillset, and you need to be a high skill player to accomplish this, you can't just be a new player without context.
I have satorou umezawa deck And: 1 has a lot of protections. 2 it does not rely on the commander, the deck is about halving life total, is either with equipped unblockables or creatures that can become unblockable.
yeah the other problem with the starting example is just that rocco is quietly a really frustrating commander for lower power decks to deal with, that is also just anti-fun to deal with in that setting. strong decks are fine because they just get extra cards and end your life, but a weaker deck frequently gets trapped into the issue of having weaker cards or needed lands trapped into catch-22's. this tends to make him a remove card or player priority more than he necessarilly should be, not because hes actually that inherently powerful, but because his effect is inherently salt inducing.
Yurlock is actually super easy to go infinite with. As you would expect from anything that taps for +2 mana. Just saying its a pretty good combo enabler for decks with untap effects. It even provides a kill option if you are the only one with a mana outlet.
This is honestly a great topic. I see too many people play decks constantly that revolve solely around the commander’s ability. My first instinct from that is to always try to include some single-target “removal” like inprisoned in the moon or a transform aura.
My main deck (that I play 99.9% of the time) is Mishra, Eminent One - definitely a monolith commander. I've built the deck to be able to keep him out sustainably. Protection plays a huge part (although I've only just started running both the boots with the fur *and* the Reeboks with the straps; I was just running Lightning Greaves for a while), but I also run a buttload of ramp that also serves other functions in the deck so building insurance for multiple instances of casting Mishra. There are a couple of alternative wincons, too - primarily Aetherflux Reservoir. I don't mind Mishra being a target because I'm almost always able to get him to stick in one way or another.
My Atla egg deck was previously a Monolith sort of deck with protection spells to keep her in... I thought to myself "what if I just replace these protection slots with other cards that cheat creatures from my library to the field?" Because some games I wouldn't use the protection spells so they seemed like dead slots and other games the timing I got the spell wasn't good. I'm always happy to cheat stuff in so I did that change and the result is that people think of my commander like she is a Monolith commander but my board state can recover or progress without her, she is just a reliable avenue that's always there and there is no bad time to cheat in eldrazi, Angels, dragons or dinosaurs 😂.
I feel like this just come down to enablers vs payoffs. If your commander is an enabler, and the only one in your deck that enables your strategy, you're gonna have a bad time
It’s an interesting conversation. I don’t think monolith commanders are inherently bad, but I do think that, as the deck’s builder and owner, you have to know whether or not you have a monolith commander and prepare accordingly. Don’t be mad that everyone is gunning to remove your Muldrotha or Winota. You know what you’ve built and how integral your commander is to your deck working, so plan accordingly.
Just put in some protection
What's a monolith commander?
I totally agree. I like to build decks that rely on the commander be in play, so I tend to follow the first rule: Don't make yourself a target, as well as wait for a moment that I will get a least some value or that I can protect it, or better, some other player make themselves the target, and when possible include some alternative commander ou backup plan.
@@Lootprechaunthat’s what this whole video is about lol how did you get to this comment without watching the first 2 minutes?
@@snowmanO07 I have just never heard this creators take on those types of commander's. Been playing EDH for a long time and never ever heard that said.
For gods sake, play weird commanders. Just do it. No one will remove your Mistform Ultimus until it’s too late
There are synergies with Yurlok that aren't exactly manaburn but punish people for either tapping lands, leaving lands untapped, or deal damage for non-basic lands. Building around painful mana management works well for him.
Yeah that's how I built him. If you build him strictly as group hug then yeah, if Yurlok dies your deck does nothing. If you just build it as a jund burn deck it still functions without him, it's just not as fast.
I just thought It would be cool to build around untapping green and red creatures and manasink. Basically you untap your commander many times as you can and you use mana to manasink.
Destructive Flow intensifies
@@andrewb378how does he work as a burn deck without his ability? I miss mana burn so much!
@@roberteldritch6285you just build a burn/punisher deck in his colors. Green gives you protection and cards like seedborm muse, while red is the primary burn color and black has draining and better removal to work alongside the rest.
I just run alot of protection and recursion if I want to play with these decks. I feel like it's kind of mandatory. It sucks, because it takes slots of things that could accentuate the value but to me it's just the trade-off you got to go with if you want to play these guys.
I came here to say this! You can do that pretty easily (except in mono-red 😅) and still do something.
Great topic. In the decks I run with these types of commanders I end up taking up about seven slots with protection spells more than in a typical deck. Seems like a big investment just to keep your bit target commander running and not suffer from commander tax.
I agree with this 💯. If my commander is the blood of the deck. Yea I’m running 10 or so way to protect it on multi fronts.
I just raw dog it. I like to play commanders that represent the majority of my game plan, but I also like to time them out so I have the big 1 or 2 turns before they inevitably die. I'll run some counters or a fog here and there, but I'm not puss-in-boots-ing unless I'm playing osgir and I can run a lightning greaves shop for laughs. Having a commander live for more than 1.5 rotation takes more slot than I'm willing to spend.
Massacre Girl, Known Killer was an immediate add to my Toxrill deck, now they're best friends.
Edit: Yes, I know slime counters aren't the same as -1/-1 counters.
That doesn't inherently matter, it is the card draw that matters, which doesn't need counters
Helpful stat from Salubrious Snail that I have been using recently when it comes to adding key pieces to a deck (like protection): the chance of having a particular card in your opening hand 53% of the time requires that you run 10 copies of said card (this is based on 99 card commander decks).
Really? Isn't it 7 or 8 copies?
My first deck was Omnath, Locus of Rage. When Omnath isn't out, the deck does very little. I eventually put some backups in the deck - mostly just X/X creatures where X is the number of lands I control. But also, the deck ramps so much, that I have paid 15 to cast the commander after a few removals.
I just brewed omnath but as a hidden commander. Will of the wilds is the lead, spitting out 1/1 elementals for ‘nath to see die and ping! Could be a way of approaching the early game.
I found it relatively simple to make omnath into a deck that didn’t have that issue. Zendikar’s roil, avenger of zendikar, warstorm surge, valakut, titania, where ancients tread give options for alternate win conditions that play into what the deck already wants to do
I just realized all my commanders are monolith lol. Arcades, imodane the pyrohammer, eriette of the charmed apple and ghyrson starn kelermoroh
Yep for Eriette.... she definitely attracts a lot of hate, I've noticed. Once people properly understand how annoying, and crucial, she is...
My Talrand deck is in this boat. It and two other creatures are the only ones in the deck to make any tokens. Rest is just spells. A buddy had a way to tap down Talrand every turn when I was trying to do stuff. Totally took me down, nothing I could do lol. My Arcades is the same
With Eriette you put hexproof/indestructible/protection auras on her first before you go for your opponents. She’ll still die to board wipes though…but then so will your opponents’ creatures you enchanted.
[[Kaya's Ghostform]] or [[Blessing of Leeches]] can somewhat help you in that regard.
Totem armor could help with that
I'd go with Kaya's ghostform, unholy indenture and minion's return type effects, they can protect eriette but at the same time they're pretty awesome to slap onto opponent's stuff, so that if a boardwipe occurs, even if end up losing eriette, you'll get their creatures. Enchanting an opponent's creatures with all that glitter seems very stupid, even with eriette. i'd prioritize auras that draw cards, impetus auras, dead man's chest, vision's of brutality is a maybe. But i'd want creatures in my own deck if i put good auras in it. Personally, i think i'd build it in a more controly style and have a few ways to protect eriette as well to try to keep her around. without her, the valuey auras don't benefit my opponents as much or are actually detrimental, minion's return works with the control part to steal them if eriette can't come down and curses would probably be the secondary theme, since they're also auras.
Also your deck contains auras you can cast from gy
I used to fall into this “trap” a lot when I first started playing and now i’m getting better at my decks being able to stand on their own without the commander. It’s a weirdly, satisfying(?) feeling to have your commander get removed and not really care.
This is me with my N'gathrod deck, milling is the whole game plan already N'gathrod just makes it more spicy.
A great way to do that is to pick a commander that will help you do something that you’re already doing without it anyways. With Rakdos, Lord of Riots, even when he’s not on the field, I still have a hand full of super impactful spells and creatures to play.
Truth!
It’s sad that it’s the best way to play commander using your commander as your center piece… but it is the wrong way to build your deck…
😮@@minced_man
I've got like 10+ protection pieces in my Sen Triplets deck. It's worth it when your commander is usually kill-on-sight and grants you a ton of value if it survives a turn cycle.
It might be weird to say, but I actually don't think Sen Triplets is a monolith commander at all, because it doesn't involve pretty much any setup. I imagine most of the time you'll be running this as a very basic control shell, I would personally even bring in some traditional control wincons like Approach of the Second Sun. The dream might be to win with your opponent's hand, but you're not dead in the water if your Triplets get removed.
It is a lot harder to just slam in protection pieces if your commander also needs a ton of setup.
@@astuteanansi4935 good point. I define Triplets as a monolith commander because there's not really any other card in magic that allows you to cast your opponent's cards from their hand like they do. I guess it depends a lot on the build of the deck.
Ooh I’d like to see the deck list! Next week I’ll play my Anti-Archenemy Sen Triplets deck and I always like seeing cool card inclusions
Further more, you are in a color pie that can very easily protect Sen Triplets.
TL;DR: all Commander decks should *always* have at least one alternative win condition.
Anzrag decks specifically take advantage of Green having a ton of hexproof/indestructible instants to both protect and combo with Anzrag.
Anzrag is def not a monolith in my opinion if you are not greedy. He also costs so little for the colors that I have had him removed 1-2 times and ive been totally fine. You just need him to stick one turn to get value out of him anyways. A gruul power matters skeleton with synergies that are still good with Gruul decks in gen will still be a powerful deck
I have a Yurlok deck, but it’s more of a group slug deck. It doesn’t require Yurlok to function. He’s just a thematic commander and a bonus when he’s in play.
I think singling out a commander and saying "if you play this commander your deck is probably really easy to deal with" is just not super helpful. There are ways to build a lot of modern commanders that make them "monoliths", but you can build those decks in other ways as well.
Yeah anyone can build a casual Thrasios merfolk tribal, but you still might die first cause you're opponents are scared of combo. Your opponents see something and expect you to build around it so they take the predictable steps to stop it.
@@jaredwright1655 here's the crazy part. You can just... say you're not playing a combo deck. I have a Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle deck that's Voltron rather than combo and even though it's a well-known combo commander, just stating that I don't have any infinite combos in my deck is enough to prevent people from treating it like a combo deck.
Totally agree. Yurlok makes for a good group slug commander.
My Yurlok deck is more political group slug, I help everyone at first, then it gets a bit painful, then suddenly I've given one opponent a master of cruelty or a phage that's goaded so everyone looks at them as the problem lol
As a Fynn player, the amount of protection I run might look a bit... silly. But completely necessary. Always count on needing to protect your monolith.
In lack of a Jund Enchantress commander, I built Yurlok as a Group Slug Enchantress. He doesn't have to be in play, but it's ramp in the Command Zone for the "fun" enchantments.
wow Jund enchantress, that is really interesting 🤔
if I were to build jund enchantress I would go with Xira Arien (the old one) since she has absolutely no predefined play style lol
@@ry7hymThat's an interesting option to consider as well, yeah. Maybe one day they'll print a good Jund Enchantress Commander, but I might consider swapping Yurlok with Xira until then, so I don't pull that much hate.
Corrosive Mentor is a mono black elemental rogue that gives black creatures wither. The back up for Massacre Girl Known Killer's wither effect.
I came to say this.
I disagree on the Charmed Apple because you can just be running curses and vows that work well without the commander
Still need to finish my list, but I mostly went with stuff like Luminous Wake or Spirit Link that wouldn't be too detrimental to me if she died. Favorite tech is Floating Shield, can set it up to potentially protect Eriette, and even if it wiffs you can still get rid of it basically any time it becomes detrimental to you.
Man you been killin it lately, thanks for being out there
Any time!
WOOOOAHHH kbash? Good to see you here wtf love your vids
Playing these types of commanders successfully is a combination of timing when you drop the commander and having ways to protect it. There are many options when it comes to silence effects, equipment/enchantments, protection/redirect instants, and counterspells that can all help tremendously in decks like these. They won’t always keep your commander from getting killed, but will at least ensure you get enough value out of them that they were worth the casting cost.
Dang, just about scoped out an entire Hapatra deck just from this video alone. Thought these cards looked familiar
The voltron strategy as a whole. Love my treebeard deck regardless though, I know what I'm getting into when playing him
I feel like this conversation shouldn't be referring to the cards themselves and monolith commanders and rather the deckbuilding nuance. You definitely touched on this, but it felt like a peripheral part of the conversation, whereas I think this is best suited as the main course.
To me the takeaway is, when you are building your deck, understand that you will not always have your commander in play, and as such, if a card has a great effect with your commander but does nothing without, perhaps look for an option with a slightly lower ceiling, but a significantly higher floor. Building for when things are going well for you is pretty much the definition of win-more.
So, for instance, it's pretty easy to build an Obeka deck with only a very few cards that are simply bad when you don't have access to Obeka.
A Yurlok deck doesn't have to play bad cards like Mana Flare. You can build towards the fact that he ramps +2 mana. And in that case, even if Yurlok is removed. the complementary pieces (other ramp and ramp payoffs) are still strong.
Maintaining a level of versatility and finding ways to layer your cards and synergies are highlights of strong deckbuilding. So to me the discussion is around monolithic deckbuilding, not monolithic commanders.
Glad you talked about this. I've been going on about this to players I come across who complain about their commander being interfered with. While it's still great to play commanders that unlock a unique strategy, the most reliable way to play, and honestly have fun, is often to pick a strategy that your commander ENHANCES, not enables.
Big disagree on this one, all my commanders are monolith commanders because when I play commander, I wanna do the commanders thing and I want that to be the central synergy/strategy of the deck, what way I don’t end up with generic goodstuff decks. I want my decks to be wildly unique in how they play/win. To combat the monolith commander problem, I just run way more protection/recursion/interaction that most people, or my commander has built in protection.
Great topic! Id like to add to the Rowan discussion. Once You tap her, the ability is going to the stack, so doesnt matter if someone removes her because it's a activated ability not an static one, like Rakdos lord of riots for example, if You have an instant way to pay life You should pay after activating rowan, if rowan gets removed before You get to tap, You just don't play the life, all of this assuming You can make rowan Enter the field with Haste, otherwise i wouldnt Even attempt to cast her if You can't portect her, that's My 2 cents on this!!
I play Eriette, and it's true. You don't want to rush her out. But I play a combination of negative and positive aura's. I also play a number of recur auras from the graveyard spells. She's not necessary, but good when on the board. She is definitely a monolith, but then again, white aura's have a ton of protection. Make her indestructible and protection from all colours. Suddenly she isn't going anywhere.
Hi, eriette brewer here and new to the game. Do you have suggestions for protection from all colors that won’t cost an arm and a leg?
I don't consider Meren a Monolith commander, but any game I've played with her has been the same. I want her out ASAP to get experience counters going, but I really can't be surprised if she doesn't live a rotation. I need to protect the heck out of her unless the other player's boards are simply bigger. I think fewer players need to consider rushing out their commander, even if they are a monolith
As another Eriette player I agree and my deck is kinda built the same with a mix of auras haha. I've noticed Eriette isn't an immediate threat when put onto the field most of the time but she gets targeted when she either starts pinging for too much damage or if someone wants to take advantage of the positive buffs you've put on their creatures lol. But for the most part people will target Kor Spiritdancer or an All that glitters before they target Eriette herself
One thing that I find really funny is when people THINK your commander is so instrumental to the plan. Adun Oakenshield always gets removed, but the theme is recursion - he's just one of many tools to get back Channel/Evoke/Cycling nonsense. Henzie gets better when I have to recast him, and the rest of the deck is still threats.
Shirei is my monolith, but with enough protection and other recursion options, that spooky boi does okay. I just have to be aware of it and plan for it... but he's the big enabler.
Even when you have a commander with a build-around, you need a plan B. Rowan absolutely is a good example. If you have Death's Shadow or Shadow of Mortality, you're on the right track at least...
I always say you want about 2 - 3 lieutenants in your deck. Creatures (or some kind of permanent) that synergizes with what your deck wants to do so you have alternatives.
I have such a hard time threading the needle between "needs commander to function" and "capable of never casting commander"
Anecdotal but my most successful deck in Brawl is my Drana and Linvala lifegain deck. The commander's just kinda nice! Shutting down activated abilities is semi-niche but a guaranteed flyer + vigilance + a big butt (toughness) just works so well.
As a boardwipe tribal avacyn player, enjoy the archenemy feel, it's such a fun and unique experience, everyone at the table knows if they cant remove it quickly they lose, embrace it, be a monster.
16:40 Eriette CAN be. She definitely wants to be at least. But you can also just run her as an Auras Voltron Commander, completely ignoring her first ability. But if you pair it with Sphere of Safety then you at least have a backup for if she gets removed if you're using her first ability. There are also a decent amount of Auras that are inherently back ups for her by themselves in both black and white.
We have someone in our regular playgroup who built Drana and Linvala, and then despite us explaining why them shutting off all activated abilities makes them a target still gets upset when we remove them on sight or after just a few rotations.
You build a stax deck, we're gonna remove the stax pieces!
That s the whole point of playing staxs : see them struggle to remove your pieces and be proud to have been able to last two rounds XD
I have a friend that wants to make a Orzhov Vamp/Angel deck, and originally wanted DranLinvala as the commander but sees that as a potential problem for it.
I think now he's considering Astarion as commander with a lifegain/life drain deck. I told him thats good, but very aristocrats style, a style he doesn't really take to. (I tried to get him a Ghen and Brenard proxy to get him to give it a go since he loves enchantment/artifact play but idk he doesn't see the value in sacrificial pawns)
"Pop off before you cast your monolith commander so that they waste removal on your 99. Save your mC for once their shields are down." Ah- Muldrotha 101. You know the play pattern well.
My Eriette has been a remove-on-sight commander, but it hasn't mattered; the whole deck has such an insanely low mana curve that I have enough to recast her over and over. It's getting enchantment wiped that hurt.
P. S. Also I like monolithic commanders. I think them being the keystone holding it all up is what makes edh so fun. I have one out of like 24 decks that doesn't care what happens to the commander lol
You can tap rowan and pay all the life in response with ability on the stack, it is an insane card that must die every time. And only 15 of your slots are dedicated to big X spells or life loss because the rest is incedental and just rakdos storm
Unfortunately, Rowan's ability is sorcery speed only. Same as Will, Scion of Peace
@shurtleff123ds having a haste anthem somehow in red? That alone makes it not matter because people cannot respond between her resolving and tapping
@@WokedOx Having a haste anthem doesn't matter. If she hits the field and someone throws an instant at her, you cannot respond with a sorcery speed ability.
@@astuteanansi4935 Haste does matter. When Rowan hits the field, her caster has priority first, which means you cannot target her with an instant before she gets to activate her ability. It feels similar to planeswalkers, who also have sorcery speed abilities. If one hits the battlefield with three loyalty, for example, you can't lightning bolt it before it uses a plus ability to add loyalty. If Rowan has haste, and her caster has paid life before casting her, short of removing the haste granter or stopping her from hitting the field, you cannot prevent her from activating her ability with removal.
Exactly what ryanmanning said. The correct way to play a rowan deck is to set up all your life loss engines first, set up a mass haste source, then drain yourself a shitload, and then play Rowan. At that point your opponents are screwed because her ability will resolve regardless of any removal, and then she pays for her own commander tax so you can immediately repay her and double the discount
I personally think it doesnt matter. Theres plenty, and i mean plenty, of ways to protect your commander whether it's shroud/hexproof equipment or auras or even totem armor auras. If you have blue, that adds a few auras that give shroud or hexproof. Just have to add those and youre good to go
Hey there, just wanted to leave quick props for what you are doing on this channel, found it a few weeks ago and you are taking edh to such a creative level. Will follow up in the future. Thanks and greetings from germany!
Not refuting that most people build Yurlok as a gift mana deck, but one way you could use it is a jund burn/pressure list. You run a lot of permanents that pressure life totals, and then your commanders ability can be activated during your turn to play out more of that stuff and also burn everyone for 3 at the same time.
As someone who used to have an Eriette deck, it runs fine when she's NOT on board, but the issue I always run into is the game goes from a 4 way free for all to a 3v1 the second I show her as my commander. So The deck's been taken apart. It was a good concept, but it's not fun to play.
Guess the only correct commander then is Yargle and Multani, you don't need effects for your commander right?
I knew full well that Obeka would be monolithic, and that's why I added plenty of haste spells and permanents, as well as Hellkite Courser to bring her out of the command zone and give her haste. I also put other spells in that can end the turn just in case
I have a Hidetsugu and Kairi clone deck that is 100% a monolith commander and man... hurts a lot when another blue player bounces my commander for 5 turns in a row (personal experience here).
Usually I don't like commanders like this, HdK was an exception because of how unique it is. But I rly like to build my decks around my commander to the point of it being waay better with my commander on the board, but playable in a mediocre way without it, like my Sefris deck with almost no reanimate spells.
One of my favorite commanders is Mairsil the Pretender which is like ....THE monolith commander imo xD The deck can do stuff without him but he enables everything and if he has been used a few times then he is the only way to use the exiled cards. I also tend to be the arch-enemy at my table xD It just makes putting in enough of the protection effects all the more needed. Great topic! Something to be aware of for sure when building a deck. Commanders like this require a different approach to build if you don't want to be constantly frustrated.
Mairsil players unite! He was the first commander I thought of when I saw the title of the video, but he's not super popular so he tends to not get a lot of content made about him.
10:57 Rowan doesn't need to be on the battlefield for the cost reduction. The ability checks for life lost at time of ability's resolution and then discounts your spells regardless of whether Rowan remains on the battlefield. If you have Anger in the GY, lose all your life first, cast Rowan, and activate the ability. If you don't have a way to gain haste but are able to start a turn with her, do your life losing stuff as separately as possible. If she gets targeted, simply tap her and continue to lose life at instant speed if possible.
I'm honestly constantly confused about how Don Andres got to be so talked about and built and played as a commander, yet Evelyn the Covetous who does essentially the same thing in the same colors went so far under the radar. Especially because Don Andres slots perfectly into Evelyn's 99.
I’m confused how you think those two commanders are doing essentially the same thing.
It's not that they do the same thing, it's that Evelyn is so much better than Don Andres
Each commander has a weakness that revises how you would build your deck. I would expect either to frequently include the other in their 99.
Evelyn steals cards but deck has to be built to get treasure tokens to cast those cards. It also tends to be a Vampire deck to activate her ability (unless you want to blink her).
Don Andres creates all the treasure tokens you will need but deck has to be built to focus more on stealing opponents spells.
@@Dragon_Fyre Incidentally, Evelyn is also not a monolith commander because even if she dies immediately, you still probably have a functional vampire deck. You even have somewhat of a backup for her in Captivating Vampire.
Evelyn steals the cards, Don Andres rewards you for stealing them. The fact you'd like both in play at the same time and that their effects don't really make up for the other means they are clearly not the same thing. One's the enabler, the other the payoff. Not to say one is better than the other, mind you, just that they don't really need the same deck at all.
Very good video! My opponents will naturally counter things I want to do, which includes removing a threatening commander. I like the way you ask the question of whether the deck can function if my commander gets removed.
It's a complicated issue because the commander is often the thing that draws one to wanting to build a deck. For example, new Judith was my prerelease card from Murders, and being my prerelease card & an interesting commander, I resolved to build her.
My early drafts of the deck, she was the main spellslinger synergy in the deck. There were a lot of burn spells to take advantage of her ability to give them deathtouch & lifelink. I think that build of the deck is probably potentially very strong & that if someone chose to build her that way, they could probably have a lot of fun.
I didn't want too big of a target on my back, so I decided to tone down the burn effects & focus more on her ability to make imps and run more other spellslinger cards. Now, the deck is more about token generation, with the intention to sacrifice them for card draw & damage. The tradeoff is that it's probably a lot less unique when compared to other Rakdos spellslinger commanders (although probably more unique when compared to other Judith, Carnage Connoisseur decks).
I play uril the miststalker and they’re really fun because they got built in deterrent with hexproof. Once you start stacking up totem armors, you’re gonna need a farewell or an Edict effect to remove them. Yes the deck is monolithic but you can have some back ups like kor spirit dancer or if you got the cash calix, guided by fate.
It's like a Muldrotha deck and one of the main reasons I stopped playing my Muldrotha deck. Such a hard-learned lesson.
People aren't going to allow you to keep Muldrotha on the table, that's literal seppuku. Packing all the protection you need for Muldrotha also removes the point of playing Muldrotha. Not having consistent access to Muldrotha basically means a Muldrotha deck is nullified.
Nowadays, I actually have a removal-heavy EDH deck with Grist and teach people these lessons the same hard way. :D
Great observation. This is a concept I've been aware of for a while now but I dig the label you've coined for it! I tend to prefer decks that use their commander to compliment the strategy, instead of those that completely revolve around the commander and rely heavily on it being in play to function, as the latter strategy is much easier to disrupt (as you point out in this video). If I do decide to build a Monolith commander, I make sure to focus on one of or both of the following concepts during deckbuilding:
1. an anti-disruption package- if you're the Rocco player in the viewer's comment at the start of the video, don't get mad about the disruption, DISRUPT the disruption! Use counter-magic, protection, indestructibility, hexproof/shroud, recursion, cloning.... whatever you need to do to keep your advantage as ever-present as possible.
2. building in a complimentary side strategy- even though a monolith commander by definition must be in play for the main strategy of the deck to function, you can still dedicate a few slots to a contingency strategy as well. I've got a Prossh deck that is primarily a Voltron strategy, which obviously requires Prossh to stay in play so that it can one-shot ppl ftw. But if I find myself in a game where my opponents are heavy on spot removal and I can't keep the big Dragon alive to reliably shove it through, well, that's why I sprinkled in a handful of aristocrats pieces and overrun effects too! If I don't have Prossh out to sac my token pile to, I can just mobilize the tokens themselves to be my source of lethal damage instead
If you really want to play a ‘monolith’ commander-dependent deck, pack extra boardwipes instead of extra protection. You want to take out my commander and set me back 3 rounds? Fine, but now the whole table is going back to the Stone Age. It’ll buy you time to ramp and pay the tax or find protection.
Thiss
If you're playing a "monolith commander" you've gotta have ways to protect the commander.
Every Brenard deck could do with a selfless spirit. 1 free indestructible from the commander's ability.
I have to bring up my old Kathril voltron deck here. I loved that deck, it never won a game, everyone in my pod kept saying it was like the scariest deck they'd ever seen. Cause sure fairly reliably getting to a one-shot sized commander that's hard to remove and nigh on unblockable seems decent. But fairly, hard and nigh on still left a lot of wiggle room. eventually I was pumping so many staples into the deck to give it a backbone so that it wouldn't fold when people dealt with Kathril that it ended up being smarter to just sell the thing and buy a warhammer army...I do miss that deck though.
Can't say Eriette of the Charmed Apple is truly monolith, because it depends upon your build.
Yeah. Auras don't need to be beneficial. Throw a nurgles rot on their creature, for example.
You also can use curses which will count as auras.
Very interesting and well presented as usual. You didn't tell us about Monloith Commanders though, they sound fascinating.
Isn't the Rowan example incorrect? If i tap Rowan and it gets removed the ability is still on stack already, in fact it makes rowan a 2 drop so i can cast and do it again.
so i realized while editing the video that yes, rowan's ability applies to himself if you recast him on the same turn. so as long as you can give him haste you can mostly get around this issue.
If rowan enters with haste and her entering doesn't trigger anything then you can activate her right away before your opponent can respond. It's still a mana ability even though it says "Activate only as a sorcery," this clause just prevents rules lawyering when you have "As an additional cost, pay 3 life" or whatever
@@edhdeckbuildingNot if Soul Sisters are on the table!
Interesting topic. I run a Zangief deck (or Marikaa for the Universes beyond haters) and I feel like I absolutely pummel monolith commander decks, while also being a monolith commander myself. My friends who built Muldrotha and the Ur-dragon definitely hate the targetting that happens, and losing their commander once or twice shuts them down really hard. The idea that commanders are unique and dont have a lot of theme support outside of themselves is interesting
Got a neheb deck, it's the definition of a monolith commander, you just have to learn that your whole plan is out there for everyone else to prepare for, either wait for defence down or wait until you have protection, not every games it will work but most games you will at least have an impact, also within a playgroup having a lower level of power may help, otherwise prepare accordingly, make your deck be ok without the commander and oppressive with it in play, that way you always have an impact but the table will be aware
Related to Don Andres -
My favorite deck of mine is my Yasova Dragonclaw theft deck, and it fits the bill. She isn't strictly necessary to the deck, as the rest of it still has plenty of theft and just general good cards that make it function even when she isn't around, but her being out has its own benefits that make it better - one extra Threaten every combat, but I also have stuff that makes her bigger, which means it's *very* easy to get commander damage kills with her.
I think my only true Monolith commander deck is Arcades which...it's rough when he goes away enough times. I'm gonna have to revise that deck eventually with more protection and less jokes (because the deck is Arcades' Nuts, so it has a squirrel/ligma subtheme) to make it actually playable.
Rocco street chef is a great commander, it's a group hug effect that turns nasty quick
I had a Deck around Atla Palani, Nest Tender that only had big dinosaurs and eggs in the deck, and ran into this exact issue, so I ended up dismantling it and built a different Naya deck instead.
There are some legendary creatures that are too linear to make effective commanders. Rowan, Scion of War and Massacre Girl, Known Killer fall into that category for me and are best used in the 99 of other decks.
Rowan is going in my Licia deck, which benefits from gaining and losing life. Not only is she an alternative way of reducing Licia’s cost, but the deck is about 50% black spells, some of which are very expensive to cast.
Massacre Girl is going in my Kelsien deck and is essentially replacing Everlasting Torment as a wither damage modifier. I’m fine with giving up preventing life gain if I can draw a few cards off of it. Kelsien is meant to draw hate away from the other creatures and even if she were to be targeted, this version uses flicker effects to avoid removal.
Great video! This is definitely an interesting topic. I really think it boils down to the perceived power level for each commander. As we all know some commanders are definitely more powerful than others. I used to run k'rrik in my play group but after the first couple games everyone else got tired of it and killed it immediately. This is a very interesting way to look at each commander for sure. Keep up the good work!
My Bruenor Battlehammer deck has been one of my most consistent win and fun to play decks, no one expects him to be a shroud 40/40 with double strike out of nowhere with cards like Reaver cleaver, Academy manufactor, Trailblazer boots and All that glitters. but its exactly built with the fact he is gonna be zapped constantly, but on turn 4/5 when you have like 50 treasure to work with that tax in meaningless and he is heading for the person who zapped him next, and Kediss is just even more dirty in the deck to dunk a win.
Wait until you encounter an Aikido deck
I ran into this problem with Arcades, the Strategist. Even with redundancies and protections in the deck it's so easy to shut it down.
I remember being excited to build Mairsil and Obeka when they both came out. But I eventually learned how much the deck relied on them. It became a feel bad for everyone. Had to deconstruct them.
I am personally a massive monolith commander fan. I play low-mid power magic mostly, and I came into this format from yugioh 3-4 years ago, where I primarily played ‘boss monster’ decks. The appeal of commander to me (and a lot of friends) is having a central creature a deck is played around. Plenty of the problems faced by playing these commanders can be alleviated by a rule zero discussion, especially at lower power levels.
Never heard the term monolithic commander. But it fits. I learned early on that decks need the commander to be support not its entire process. Most decks that rely to heavily on the commander are usually obviously too reliant on the commander. Most knowledgeable players will just pop it on site, the rest of the time it will be a casualty to board wipes. Makes for a frustrating play experience in either case.
Rocco is a fun example of this. I've played basically nothing but Rocco since he released since Impulse Draw and casting stuff from exile is one of my favorite mechanics. On the surface, a food and a +1/+1 counter is what your opponents give you to draw a free extra card every turn. They make that choice, and a lot of people I play like the free extra cards but suddenly, a couple turns pass and you have 3-4 creatures with double digit stats because everyone wanted to keep getting free cards. It's a fun mind game to see how much people give you before they bite off a bit more than they can chew (pun intended)
To play devils advocate, I don't think Eriette is a monolithic commander, as both players and opponents have plenty of options. Decks have other win conditions like "suns grace", "empty throne" and buffed aura creatures.
Eriette early game doesn't pose much of threat, most people lose more life on shocklands. With the amount of game ending commanders (Voja, Anzrag), something that requires multiple turns to drain opponents out isn't too much of an immediate threat. She can also be controlled by destroying aura's to keep her in check.
As for her defensive abilities, while you can build around it, I like it as a bonus and works well with cards like "clawing torment" and "dead mans chest" your going to cast on your opponent anyway
20:50
Corrosive Mentor gives all black creatures you control wither.
This makes it an effective back up commander to Massacre Girl
I've been playing magic for what will be 19 years this summer.
What I can say about multi-player magic is, build like you're going to be playing arch enemy, because at some point, you will be the target, and losing because of a gang beating is no fun.
I disagree simply because sometimes these commanders allow you to do something you couldn't do otherwise or play cards you normally couldn't.
Kinda the point of commander, unless you are playing with combos that do not depend on the commander.
If you don't build into the commander you risk every Grixis as an example deck being the same deck, you want to leverage your commanders abilities.
I have a Toxrill deck, but I can use the Kill on Sight status to distract my opponents from a combo I have to set up. Basically, I bring out Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, then Kormus Bell. I then play Toxrill untill he sticks, then End Turn to KILL ALL MY OPPONENTS' LANDS! As it's also continuous, it's pretty much game.
I will say on the Concept of Monolith Commanders, that it is possible and doable to make the deck function with your commander still being the biggest stick in the pile, so to say. As an Example, my Yurlock Deck is a Jund Turbofog Pain Deck, so even if I never get Yurlock out, there will still be pain. And more importantly, I can still win even if I never cast him Successfully. The Eriette Deck could easily be Backboned with Death and Taxes, using Removal and Holy Days as Back up if Eriette is on the Board.
I usually only go all in on building around a commander if it has some sort of built-in protection or costs 3 mana or less.
No, All that Glitters definitely goes on your creature and it pumps based on the other auras you control(that are on opponent's creatures). It's the duality of aura's that make Eriette not a monolith commander. Her abilities are a bonus, period. You build her to take advantage of auras you might not otherwise consider. It's in Orzhov so all of those Pacify and Minions Returns just compound with cards like Hateful Eidolon. I want to build her because it's a unique Aristocrats philosophy of building Enchantress. I urge you to rethink Eriette and the strategy around her.
Edit: Think of her as a Control Enchantress with Aristocrat tendencies.
I have a yurlok deck and my commander very rarely gets removed often. I have a lot of effects of "any player may activate this ability" in my deck and I leverage that on top of giving other people mana while I churn out advantage. Xantcha is a staple in the deck and she motivates other players to use the jund mana I give them to draw a card.
Sometimes with commanders like these, you need to double down on the effect all while not making it oppressive and you won't have to deal with the removal until it's too late for the opposition
This is why I personally lean towards tribal decks. I don't need my commander on the field, but the commander enhances it
Without a deck list I am only able to talk theory on Rocco, Street Chef as a commander. That being said I did net deck and test it against 3 of my decks to see what it does well and where it falls short in Table Top Simulator.
Rocco will typically die after the first turn cycle of play if it does not make any deals to draw aggression away from the commander. Due to it being 3 mana it comes out faster than most decks but not all of them, this means in a pod with 2 mana commanders or lower they can be the targets and Rocco could survive. However for every turn it sticks around you open the amount of options you can do and are generally limited to the impulse drawn card the turn after Rocco is played. This means after Rocco hits the field everyone knows exactly what you will be doing next turn if it hits anything that is not a land. In the case of a land they know Rocco gets bigger and you make a food and will likely play something that capitalizes on this fact like a creature to spread the counters out or something that cares about artifacts/food.
Your opponents can opt out of Rocco. This makes Rocco significantly less threatening and is likely what will happen until you have enough value on the board that "well me playing a land from exile won't hurt me, he already has a 10/10 it being 11/11 doesn't mean much."
The Rocco deck I played features:
18 cards that care about food/artifacts
5 cards that care about counters/power
30 cards that care about exile/outside your hand
Rocco did win on turn 12 with the commander being removed 3 times twice was due to him exiling someone's removal spell and Rocco being the best choice on turns 4 and 8. The third instance was on the start of turn 7 on Rocco's turn being countered by Bar the Gate.
One element I think is important when considering a monolith commander is built in protection. I'll give 2 anecdotal examples. I have 2 decks, one that is a monolith and one that could be mistaken for a monolith.
Deck 1: I have a Narset Enlightened Master deck. No creatures in the deck, built around Narset. Now normally that is risky, but Narset has Hexproof built in to her. So now a lot of common removal options don't work against her without some additional hoops. Board wipes still work, and any cards that remove Hexproof, but that is more investment than a 1 mana Swords or Path. So as a monolith I can generally count on Narset sticking around even as a lightning rod. This doesn't even account for the protection and interaction I run in the deck.
Deck 2: I have a Xenagos, God of Revels Deck built around big stompy creatures. Xenagos doubles their power and gives them haste. The deck wants Xenagos to be on the board. It still functions without him, but not nearly as well. However Xenagos himself has 2 things shielding him. The first is the Indestructible keyword. The second is the fact that he isn't a creature unless you have a high enough devotion. Removal for Indestructible enchantments is less common than for creatures. So he is likely to stick around. There is also the fact that if he does stick around he might not even be the biggest target ad I'm likely to have some big stompy creature on board that'll still be big and stompy without Xenagos.
I play with a fairly experienced playgroup and I have a deck with Klauth, Unrivaled Ancient as the commander. My advice for commander players who’s commanders are absolute removal magnets is to build the deck with the expectation that your commander isn’t going to last forever. Make sure the deck still functions well without the commander, and is only accelerated by your commander’s presence
As a Gitrog player...it is quite a bit harder without him. It's not so much removal, because the deck can combo enough at instant speed that it doesn't matter. The main problem is Drannith Magistrate.
Building a great deck first that becomes an even better when the commander is out has been the most successful way to play in my experience. My budget Lier Rogues deck is probably the most egregious example in my collection; undoubtedly my highest win rate deck and 95% of each game, I’m usually throwing out a ton of cantrips, playing unblockables and not touching the commander at all, and when I do cast him it’s either because I’m about to win or it will give me the push I need to take the w next turn.
Great video concept! This is very important for the format overall. Some people end up being way too salty because they built their decks way too much centered on their commander.
Monolith type Commanders require extra protection, lots of reanimation or at the very least a ton of mana production. But no matter what, you need to have a plan B. A way to play without your commander. A different focus perhaps. Using Brenard, you could easily have Chulane in the 99 as a back up commander who works with the strategy either way.
Finally we can compare Don Andres, who wants you to steal creatures, but won't be missed TOO much if they don't hit to board, to Marchesa of the Black Rose. Still stealing creatures, but your deck is gonna do a LOT less if you're not attacking w/ dethrone active or sacrificing creatures with Marchesa out to make them perma-yours.
Esika//prismatic bridge superfriends is my favorite commander deck and it’s one of those commanders that never has to come out of the command zone to be a good deck you just control the board blow everything up and play the best planeswalkers in mtg. Pretty simple.
There's tons of ways to get wither/infect. Massacre girl totally works without being around, id say it hangs on the edge of monolith. She is important but also not a necessity especially if you can get here ability to trigger a lot before she is removed.
I got suckered into making both Ghen and Obeka, and I'm not at all bummed. If Ghen gets targeted and is not protected by an aura, I can still sling enchantments that ruin peoples' days, and I have backup like Fires of Invention and Demon of Fate's Design. Plus a ton of board control and forced sacrifice. With Obeka I have backup and protection for days, and I can likely still cheat stuff out, steal stuff, and wreck people without her if I need to -- I just don't get to keep the stuff I cheat out. So if you're going to build a commander that's considered a monolith, you absolutely need to have an alternate plan. Plus, you can't go in and just assume that you'll be the only target. There are three other people who will likely be playing stuff that's just as problematic -- and people aren't always going to have removal for you. So if you dumped resources into a commander deck that turns out to be monolithic, don't get discouraged.
I play very successfully as a monolith commander player. It's simple, you build your decks with a lot of resilience and redundancy to ensure it takes a load of counter play from multiple players to maybe stop you.
I like to be the archenemy and I build around that. It's definitely a skillset, and you need to be a high skill player to accomplish this, you can't just be a new player without context.
I have satorou umezawa deck And: 1 has a lot of protections. 2 it does not rely on the commander, the deck is about halving life total, is either with equipped unblockables or creatures that can become unblockable.
yeah the other problem with the starting example is just that rocco is quietly a really frustrating commander for lower power decks to deal with, that is also just anti-fun to deal with in that setting. strong decks are fine because they just get extra cards and end your life, but a weaker deck frequently gets trapped into the issue of having weaker cards or needed lands trapped into catch-22's. this tends to make him a remove card or player priority more than he necessarilly should be, not because hes actually that inherently powerful, but because his effect is inherently salt inducing.
Yurlock is actually super easy to go infinite with. As you would expect from anything that taps for +2 mana. Just saying its a pretty good combo enabler for decks with untap effects. It even provides a kill option if you are the only one with a mana outlet.
This is honestly a great topic. I see too many people play decks constantly that revolve solely around the commander’s ability.
My first instinct from that is to always try to include some single-target “removal” like inprisoned in the moon or a transform aura.
My main deck (that I play 99.9% of the time) is Mishra, Eminent One - definitely a monolith commander.
I've built the deck to be able to keep him out sustainably. Protection plays a huge part (although I've only just started running both the boots with the fur *and* the Reeboks with the straps; I was just running Lightning Greaves for a while), but I also run a buttload of ramp that also serves other functions in the deck so building insurance for multiple instances of casting Mishra. There are a couple of alternative wincons, too - primarily Aetherflux Reservoir.
I don't mind Mishra being a target because I'm almost always able to get him to stick in one way or another.
My Atla egg deck was previously a Monolith sort of deck with protection spells to keep her in... I thought to myself "what if I just replace these protection slots with other cards that cheat creatures from my library to the field?" Because some games I wouldn't use the protection spells so they seemed like dead slots and other games the timing I got the spell wasn't good. I'm always happy to cheat stuff in so I did that change and the result is that people think of my commander like she is a Monolith commander but my board state can recover or progress without her, she is just a reliable avenue that's always there and there is no bad time to cheat in eldrazi, Angels, dragons or dinosaurs 😂.
I feel like this just come down to enablers vs payoffs. If your commander is an enabler, and the only one in your deck that enables your strategy, you're gonna have a bad time