Ramping In The Commander Format
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- Опубликовано: 17 июл 2024
- Another fundamental part of building any commander deck, ramp. What exactly is it, and how should we tackle this integral requirement?
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so alot of people have mentioned cost reducers (like medallions) or mana doublers. i would consider those both separate categories. for me a mana reflection is more like a ritual effect that enables big plays. just think of what purpose ramp serves in your deck.
Demo is one of the better creators. Attempts to come at the game from a fresh angle. Really appreciate the originality.
I guess that includes cards like nightscape familiar, goblin electromancer, and goblin anarchomancer but those reducers are my go tos in those colors so I was surprised you didn’t talk about them. I def consider them to be in a “ramp” slot for my decks
One type of "ramp" is undervalued is cost discount. I think this deserve more attention.
Ramp that discounts itself? Do you have any recommendations? I have a Keruga companion deck with 3 suspend spells (Search for Tomorrow, Venture Forth, Rift Sower) and a Careful Cultivation (channeling) to cheat the companion restriction. Would like more.
I’d consider repeatable sources of treasure like Smothering Tithe or Professional Face Breaker to be ramp but not something that only creates treasure one time like Dockside Extortionist or Brass’s Bounty
If anything smothering tithe is a mana rock.
Same. Ramp to me is any form of consistent mana generation. Rituals are fast mana, not ramp. Lotus cards are fast mana, not ramp (except in extremely fringe cases like muldrotha decks where you can play them every turn).
Smothering tithe is rather consistent. You won’t always get a mana from an opponent drawing a card but it’s more often than not that you’ll get at least one of 3 per round at the table.
Flicker dockside it’s ramp
Let’s be real, if you’re playing dockside, he’s probably happening more than once lmao
The best MTG and EDH channel in RUclips.
Omg agreed
Love his take on things! lines up very close with my personal POV on magic.
Me too
Very good? Absolutely. Top 5? Probably. Best? Definitely not, where's the gameplay? Where's the decktechs? Where's talking about the format not just cards for it?
@@peadrianlastname^
I personaly have to recommend
*Surveyor's Scope*.
Super sweet for red, blue and black decks, to catch up with the green ones 🎉
Red has quite a bit of mana reduction cards and black has a few mana doublers but for the most part red’s reduction cards are creature/spell specific and blacks doublers are few and don’t stay on board very long. Why no one talk about land enchantments as ramp? Wild growth is #1
I would say
1. Land Ramp
2. Land Aura's Ramp
3. Mana Rocks
4. Mana Dorks
It feels twice as bad to have a land blown up and lose your Aura with it, but that doesn't make it anymore or less likely that your opppnent is playing Land destruction. Enchantment removal is also pretty consistently rarer than artifact removal. Also, a lot of those ramping enchantments are pretty competitively costed. 1 Mana for and additional green Mana each turn is a llanowar Elves that doesn't die to creature removal.
Great series. Looking forward to the other installments
Environmental Sciences is decent too. 2cmc, puts a land in your hand, gains you 2 life, fits in any deck. I run it in my decks that dont have white or green and it works
never seen this card played , didn't know it existed
@@johncarey7786 Its a good colorless option at least, better than nothing lol
I ran this when I was new to the game, but now I'd rather just have a land in that slot.
I can see it being useful if you have synergy with sorceries along with cost reduction, but otherwise you're just paying 2 mana to gain 2 life.
@@FolkenZero Its more for mana fixing. If youre playing 2 colors and youre 5 turns in and still missing a color things like this help. Or it guarantees a land drop on your next turn. Never said it was amazing, but it has its uses
There are two cards in blue, that pretty much no one but me seems to be playing, but both function well as Lands Ramp. Both of these cards require you to build decks with a decent number of basic lands, so they would not fit in a deck that has only a minimum of islands. These cards are Retraced Image and Mitotic Manipulation. Very simply, they require you to have an island in play, and then to use these spells to place another into play. Retraced Image works best with lots of card draw (so basically any functional blue deck) and Mitotic Manipulation works best with some level of top-deck manipulation (Scroll Rack or Brainstorm effects). In my book they are the best ramp spells in blue, and it blows my mind that no one plays them.
even as a decade long collector of magic I always love vids that are back to the basics!
Black has a few mana dorks. Their level of playability depends on your deck, of course. Vesper Ghoul, Bog Witch, Skirge Familiar. They're high mv and require a condition (as Black does), but they exist.
Skirge Familiar is certainly not a DORK. It costs 5 amna.. its literally a Ritual.
What about cost reduction like Oketra's Monument that reduces white creature spells by one generic mana? Is that ramp? It's cost reduction is limited to just white creatures, but it will let you play creatures ahead of curve. Also, it can reduce more than one mana per turn, for example, if you play two creatures on your turn then the total white mana cost would be two mana.
I always count cost reduction to my ramp. Goblin anarchomancer for instance, I put it in all my decks that has red and green. In fact, for the reason you explained about letting you play stuff ahead of curve multiple times and not just that one time for that one extra land, I consider cost reduction to be the best form of ramp.
If you have high generic costs then cost reductions are definitely ramp. Just check your pip to generic cost ratios.
I use this in my God-Eternal Oketra deck, and with Whitemane Lion or similar, it’s hella bonkers. 😁
Cost reduction is almost in its own category above ramp. This is why cost reduction effects are so rare and sought after, such as the Medallion artifacts.
Treasure is ramp the same way cantripping is card draw. In both cases they are not really the same thing, but even so if you have a lot of them you don't need as much of the other.
My definition of “ramp” is having access to more mana than you naturally should for whatever turn you’re on. I think people often limit themselves to just the land definition and it hurts them in the long run. That means I consider treasures, rituals, untapping effects, and mana reduction to also be ramp effects.
When I build my Mardu decks, I purposely do not try to compete with green by putting out more lands. That is a losing proposition. For instance, my Licia deck uses Treasonous Ogre, K’rrik, and Sacrifice/Burnt Offering to get huge bursts of mana, which combined with her mana cost reduction, allows me to constantly bring her back, no matter the commander tax.
Now with Kelsien, I do put in things like Land Tax because it’s not as important that I leap ahead in mana, as he keeps the board clear of the biggest creature threats and mana dorks, but rather that I not miss land drops. His deck is the only one that uses Dockside Extortionist, since it uses a lot of flicker cards. Primary they’re there to reset Kelsien, but using them on Dockside allows me to get repeatable value out of it.
Green is so powerful only because players go out of their way to not destroy lands. That mentality allows the green player to never experience any kind of hardship. Now while I can’t stand decks (especially 1vs1) that do nothing other than destroy lands, putting in some targeted land destruction is going to slow that green player down some. It’s those mass versions that probably should be avoided. That being said, I am still theory crafting a Mardu mass land destruction deck that doesn’t just extend the game. The biggest problem is that I don’t have a commander for it. I may have to go with a partner pairing.
In my opinion when you start pushing 3+ colors you have hit a point where colorless ramp(unless your in a land theme) becomes more important than colored ramp because a colorless mana rock you can play is better than a 2 cost green spell sitting in your hand until you draw green mana. That said I dont have much money to invest in a manabase for all my decks and i dont play in a group that uses proxies
I consider any repeatable mana source ramp. So since one of my primary decks is galazeth spell slinger treasures are ramp pretty much only in that deck
The medallions and the artifact monuments are sick mana reducers love using these
I agree with you that treasures and rituals aren’t ramp, but they become ramp when you can use them consistently. Smothering Tithe is ramp in white. I would say rituals come very close to ramp in a deck like Dralnu. This is why artifacts are largely considered ramp because they give extra mana consistently But I understand that these guides are meant to be general!
El mejor canal de commander!! Un saludo desde España!! ❤
White is decent at ramping plains specifically, so I would still put mana rocks into a white deck.
A white multicolor deck, that is.
Especially since most white ramp says "if an opponent has more lands" having rocks keeps land count low for when you get the ramp.
Medallions i include as ramp as well. Treaures i can see counting as ramp, especially if its something youre consistently doing, but def see the point that its temp. I guess it depends on your curve too, bc if its a 'one shot' to get out your 6+ drop and not having that extra land isnt hurting you then it can be used as ramp. Def more situational
I feel like a good analogy for disposable or 1 time use mana gain cards like dark ritual or treasure tokens would be NOS/Nitrous in an engine. Sure, you go faster for a turn or maybe 2, but you can't sustain that speed without the actual fuel in the form of permanent mana sources in the form of lands, mana rocks, mana dorks, etc.
How I look at it is this: ramp helps you gain extra permanent mana sources outside of your 1 land per turn.
That isn't how NOS works (outside of video games & The Fast & The Furious)
Great video. I consider treasure tokens ramp if (i) there is a reliable and repeatable source of them, like Smothering Tithe, Storm-Kiln Artist or Black Market Connections (this last one has the exact same effect as putting an aditional land or a mana rock into play, with the advantage that you can "save" the unspent mana for later turns, which actually makes it better); or (ii) you can create a bunch of them at once, like Dockside Extorsionist, allowing an explosive turn and "compensating" the lack of "traditional" ramp in the previous turns.
I'm actually surprised at the number of blue mana dorks out there. They're not the best mana dorks, but they defiantly exist in that color pie: wizard apprentice, omen hawker, sea scryer, veldaken engineer, etc.
I havent had the chance to try it out myself, but Decent into Avernus seems like a good ramp spell, albeit a huggy ramp spell. Because it generates treasure really well and it guaranteed, no options about it, its a really solid 3 mana ramp spell.
I wonder if commander will eventually reach a point where ramp becomes mostly irrelevant - as it already is in 60c formats.
The recent edhrec numbers didn't confirm a further decrease of average mana values in decks though, so it might still take a while.
I agree with your ranking of ramp types but I always feel like I should be playing more enchantment ramp. It is also an almost exclusively Green option but they are tougher to answer than mana rocks, often faster than land ramp, and are basically mana dorks without summoning sickness. I wonder if the 'correct' ramp package shouldn't always just have Nature's Lore, Three Visits, Utopia Sprawl, and Fertile Ground to start.
I'd add in Abundant Growth and Urban Utopia. In addition to the ramp, they draw you a card, replacing themselves.
@@smayotte113 I think these fall more into the category of fixing not ramp. You don't get any extra mana out of them. They are decent fixing and the card draw is nice!
No love for wild growth?
@@timbombadil4046 Yes! Wild Growth is the one I forgot! I might miss the fixing but it is essentially free. Wild Growth definitely would be in the running.
I agree that treasures and ritual effects aren't "true" ramp or even on par with it, but they allow you to have a more explosive turn than you otherwise would, and in the right deck and timed correctly the effect can be tantamount. Not to mention the opportunity for the element of surprise. Treasures have the added benefit of being both artifacts and tokens, and those types matter in a lot of strategies where the fact they create mana is more of a perk. Rituals typically take advantage of the fact they're sorceries or instants, so play very well in storm and spell copy strategies. They don't need to be ramp and actually have potential to go harder because of it.
The thing about white white is not really ramp because their effect only works if your opponent is ahead on land counts. So if let's say you're ahead on turn but opponent missed some land then those "ramp" cards don't do anything. So I still have rock for white in regard
The way I've always seen it getting ahead in your lands is ramp and mana rocks and mana dorks are mana acceleration.
I built a meme deck that was so much fun it was a blue ramp deck with Ovar, the all form as the commander and told my friends to run ramp decks and see who can ramp hardest by like turn 30 or 40. And that's who the winner would be not necessarily who killed who quickest. It was so much fun I had like 60 lands or something like that on the battlefield while they had like thier cap of 30-40. It was so much fun. Hell I played it in a normal game and ended up winning it to. But it's not a super high powered deck but it was a good fun deck to play. 😊
funny enough i will be making a video later this week talking about blue ramp because i found some very fringe ways to do it in blue.
@@edhdeckbuilding yeah I saw Ovar and saw lots of things that let you target lands in blue so I was like. What if I did green but better with the ramp. It was funny and love theory crafting the deck and building it. I had lots of copy things to make it go quicker to. Can't wait for the video! I'll be watching it for sure!
One exception to the treasure argument are repeatable treasure makers like shriff, professional Fb, malcom, etc. ur getting to make use of mana to make more mana later. I blur those line in deckbuilding a lot especally if I cant use green in a deck
What would you say about tireless provisioner? It makes treasures but it makes one for every land you play so if you hit your land drop every day it’s giving you an extra mana every turn
Ladies and gentlemen, it’s time we start punishing land ramp
Lol I already do.
I've been tinkering with the idea of an Off-Color Theme: Rakdos Landfall. There's some really neat cards that care about the number of Swamps and Mountains you control. Any suggestions? The commander isn't decided, but maybe it should be an artifact recursion guy so I can reuse Wayfarer's Bauble. I'm also planning to get lots of use out of Wandering Atlas.
Wandering Atlas is underrated. I've used it in Feather to out-ramp green decks because I am always drawing extra lands. Rakdos landfall would be an interesting challenge.
-Chainer, Nightmare Adept could give you recursion for Burnished Hart and Solemn Simulacrum; with Crucible of Worlds, you could even chuck lands for Chainer's ability and then play them from the grave.
-Or Anje Falkenrath could be interesting to dig deep and then combine with "untap gain additional combat" effects to keep untapping/tapping Anje and Wandering Atlas; Moraug in the 99 even has landfall to do this (yes, I know you don't get extra combat phases off lands that enter during combat, but picture you sac Burnished Hart then drop and crack a fetch land - now you have four extra combats, and Wandering Atlas/Anje untap during each one). Of course, now picture attacking with Sword of the Animist/Sword of Hearth and Home during each of those extra combats for maximum landfall.
-Toggo and a black partner (like Keskit) could work.
As for landfall payouts, there are a few that seem interesting (Ob Nixilis the Fallen, Geode Rager, Moraug, Nesting Dragon), but I find it funny that Rakdos really is the anti-landfall color combo and has a lot of cards that punish everyone when they drop lands.
Blue totally has mana dorks like vodalian arcanist or unblinking observer: I think they’re totally slept on cards. And why didn’t we talk about cost reducers? Like jhoiras familiar or goblin anarchomancer? The medallions and all the other cost reducers imo are better than land drop cards
I think there are many alternatives to ramp that provide mana, but I would strictly consider ramp to be a permanent (unless destroyed) source of stable mana that accelerates your base available mana each turn beyond that of the standard one land per turn.
Treasure tokens, reductions to spell casting or ability activation etc. can all be taken into account to reduce the required ramp to be effective, but do not strictly function the same way or have the same role in a deck.
I would consider a mana doubler to be ramp where it provides that bonus consistently every turn (this would not include a one time instant such as high tide).
RAMP = Rapid Artificial Mana Production. Therefore, dark ritual and mana geyser are RAMP :)
Depends on the deck in slicer you could count rituals as ramp because you only need the mana once but in say an Ur-Dragon deck you wouldn't be able to count rituals like say dockside extortionist as ramp as it would only let you cast 1 spell. It's not ramping you at that point but just accelerating a single player if that makes sense.
ok u just made that up but it is clever
@@johncarey7786 hahahaha true, but makes sense
I think it is a weird swapover for treasures, because if you have only 2 or 3 sources of treasure generation in a deck, I agree that is not ramp. However, if you have a bunch of cards that create treasures, enough to keep up with your use of them, then it suddenly feels like ramp. I have no traditional ramp cards in my dragons deck, but that deck feels like it has infinite mana with how many treasures I get. On the other end, I count rituals as ramp ONLY if there are a few of them in the deck. If I have 10 ramp cards, 2 or them can be rituals, but any more than that and they dont count as ramp anymore for me.
You talking about ramp but never mentioning the talismans, the signets, the diamonds, sol ring, mana crypt, etc is weird. They're always my go-to
He did mention mana rocks, which all of those are. I guess he didn't go into it deeply, perhaps because it's assumed everyone knows of them?
I guess it depends if you feel this is a video for absolute newbies or not (which it potentially is, since every commander player knows of these cards). So perhaps he should have gone more in depth on them.
Anything that gives you more than just 1 extra mana than placing a land down is ramp. It puts you ahead of your opponents in mana, so it's considered ramp.
If I'm in a mono black deck, I'm throwing crypt ghast in there, and counting it as ramp during my deck construction. Black has a few of those mana doubler effects and I think that's all they really get, in terms of "ramp" apart from urborg shenanigans
Shame Sisters of the Flame costs so much, hah! Love the video Demo.
Dockside is so powerful, to me at least, because it punishes fast mana on turn two or three extremely well, allowing you to cheat out an out of tempo play.
If everyone at the table thinks they are slick dropping sol ring into arcane signet, and then you swoop in dockside, suddenly everyones mana rocks made you win the game.
We should give a shout out to Black for it's use of Phryexian mana and other effects that allow you to exchange life for casting spells. 🎉
Not even touched Landenchantment? Ford 3 CMC make 2 Green which can instand bei used ist one of the best Ramp i think. Plus the Option to untap.
In my eyes untap in blue is also creature based ramp.
Love your Channel thx for your Content.
Dockside in a flicker deck can be kinda ramp like. otherwise no, he just makes the mana pool flexible for a couple turns.
Do not forget the the green enchant lands
I have a question.
Are white ramps really ramps?
Most of them only work if your opponent has more lands than you. They rarely put you ahead in terms of lands in play. If you play in a pod without a green player those cards do nothing, except let you catch up. So is it still ramp?
Cost reduction like medallion (ex:Jet Medallion) it's not producing mana but lowering spell cast ? Tutor can get land too ;P
Green mana dorks tend to be more efficient than rocks, and having the chump blocker late that might gets hit by collateral damage sooner than an artifact is still better imo.
When I use Land Tax or Tithe I consider them part of my Card Advantage suite.
Agreed, land tax is card draw. It not only tends to grab you 3+ cards but the more you pull them out the more your future draws improve. The wisdom of deck thinning not being important in commander doesn't hold when you're ripping 3 cards out repeatedly.
Built-in ramp is good
EDH video posted 1 minute ago? Don't mind if I do!
execuse me demo,
there are mana doublers and mana cost reducers and also cheating mana via cascade/reanimate/bring things from [a zone] to field and more like just copy a land or the hole board.
sooo what about them demo? are those ramp or maybe even ramp and draw or theyr own thing maybe some just work as a mini combo piece??
Cascade is kinda like ritual. But yeah, mana doublers and mana cost reducers are imo ramp.
most mana doublers/triplers are 5+ mana. They shouldn’t be considered ramp but rather something you ramp *into*. Ramp is an early game accelerant that allows you to deploy big spells in mid to late game. Mana doublers and things of that sort should really be setting you up for closing or attempting to close the game, so they aren’t really serving the same purpose as ramp, even though they do increase your mana.
i do agree with you in all of this but there's one roadblock with your video you didn't talk about cost reducers and mana doublers
I always strugle with how many ramp spelles, (dorks, rocks, ramp spells cost reduction) I have to put in my deck. Almost after each game I play I seem to have a different opinion about how my deck functioned and i tend to remove or add to it at the end of the night when I get home. For instance; I have a 4 cmc Boros Commander and most of my cards don't go above 4 mana, I only have about 8 cards of 5cmc and up. I can never figure out how many lands and ramp spells I should play. Sometimes i play with 36 lands and 14 ramp spells and I get flooded, I'm like; fine I'll remove a land and remove a ramp spell. Next time I play it I'm stuck on three lands and no ramp for half of the game and the cycle continues with me adding again. Same goes for my mono black Mikaeus Unhallowed deck. It's a six mana commander and I want to get it out early, and because of that I'm quite heavy on the ramp with 15 and 37 lands, but that seems to work against me as well more often than not. I can never seem to hit that sweet spot were I can work around the varience of a card game and the right amount of spells and lands. I was hoping you could maybe give some insight on this Demo, in one of your next video's. Land to spell and ramp ratio's in combination with the importance of more agressive mulligans maybe? Or maybe someone in chat has some advice?
Not sure this is a solution, but it does bring up an area I slgihtly disagree with Demo on - cheap card draw and filtering - Demo has said many times that he doesn't rate the two-three mana draw spells (painful truths, Sign in Blood etc) highly for commander and would much rather have the higher cost draw a lot more (Stinging Study/Rishkar's Expertise etc). While I can see his point, your situation feels to me like the kind where I would maybe want more of those cheap draw spells, just to keep the deck flowing. This seems to work better more often for lower curve decks rather than higher curve. Maybe an approach along these lines could help - although I don't love the 2-mana red impulse draw (but I'm not sure what good alternatives Boros has), but maybe it can dig you out of a mana flood or drought. Essentially, my answer to problems with consistency is usually to try more card draw - if I see more of my deck, in theory it should be more consistent...
I prefer to potentially have too much ramp to not enough. You may run into having insufficient spells if you draw too much ramp which is a concern but you remain active and are simply not as optimized as you may prefer, whereas with too little ramp, you are effectively dead in the water and unable to act at all.
@@danpearman270 That's interesting I do have imo, plenty carddraw options in my black deck, but most of them are higher in the curve. I've played against players who cast the 'sign in blood' type of cards, but I never really experienced those cards as impactful. So with that in mind and with Demo's comments on them I never really concidered those cards as a viable option. But a bit more carddraw early game might be what i need, thanks!
@@Dragon_Fyre Yeah that's also true. So you say; leave it be and be a bit less optimzed and flooded every now and then. That indeed is better than being stuck on three mana for half the game
@@EvertfromNederland I like one-off card draw that gives you 3+ cards but not much of a fan of 2 card draw one-off spells in EDH format (there are some exceptions, particularly in mono red which has few other options).
You probably should have mentioned when to ramp and when not to have ramp in your deck. Frank Karsten's recent articles about mana bases suggest you should not include mana rocks (and i guess that includes land ramp too) in decks where your commander is less than 4CMC (i.e. any 1, 2 or 3 mana commanders should NOT have ramp in them). His justification is that most games are over by turn 8-9, if therefore curving out over 8 turns is better than spending turns on playing mana rocks, and mathematically youre best chance of ramping out with meaningful stuff is to exclude mana rocks. Note he always includes sol ring regardless of commander because that card is obviously so busted.
You've had me until the treasure part. I see where you're coming from but it's versatile ramp. It's perfect for setting up or like you said, just spend it all at once. A dedicated treasure deck is nothing but ramp. Magda goes insane when left unchecked. If you want to argue an anti treasure deck would stomp it out or gets outperformed by regular ramp, land destruction is way worse and more applicable for any deck rather than a hyper specific you might not see. And worse case scenario just turn all those treasures into 4/4 creatures. I'd rather lose all my treasures than lands
Ramp for me has always meant grabbing lands. I feel like treasure and rituals are different because you're only ahead in a 'one use' instance.
So... where does cost reduction fit in?
Hey Demo it's been a while you remember me? You should start doing live streams on RUclips! Would be cool.
Demo I think black is still number two for ramp. The amount mana doublers they have and cards like black market end up giving so mana over the course of the game in my opinion still beats out white rn.
What would your take on Utopia sprawl be?
i'd say that's ramp for sure
@@edhdeckbuilding then by this logic the first ramp is in alpha with wild growth
@@andrewknies675 sure. but i said specifically a spell that puts a land into play.
Old gnaw bone is forsure mana ramp
I think it would be fine to print a colorless "untamed wilds" nowdays, maybe even a rampant growth for the other 4 colors that grabs the specific basic (1r put a basic mountain into play, as an example).
Burnished Hart is almost that, a little slower since you usually have to pay the 3 to sack it next turn, and the lands come in tapped but still.
Myriad Landscape
@@Shikigami6 exactly, people tend to cut this already so i think more landramp for non-green should be fine.
Edit: I would say print it in the next draftable commander product or mono to 2 colored commander decks. That way there should be no real concern for 60 card formats.
@@NoTengoIdeaGuey The mein problem with lil old elk is that, its pretty much ramp 2 for 6. Granted you can somehat easily recur it but sadly, even with that i think it has become too slow for all but the most faithful of its fans.
For me Treasures are a ritual effect
Love this. :)
One small note; the phrase is "with regard to ramp", not "in regards to ramp" :)❤
Pick up a “Summer Bloom”
Do you not consider cards like crypto ghast and nirvana revenant ramp?
i would say mana doublers are their own category.
Crypt Ghast is somewhat unique at 4 mana but most doublers/triplers are 5-8 mana so they function more as things you ramp into rather than ramp themselves. They are pieces to set you up for taking over or ending the game rather than accelerating your early set up phase as ramp does.
You really can't count mana doublers as ramp because having a mana doubler with only a few land does not much. You need the ramp to make the doublers do work.
Treasure tokens count as Rituals imo. Cards that produce Treasure tokens every turn are basically cards that produce Rituals every turn. Producing a Ritual every turn is Ramp. A Ritual that is not repeatable is not Ramp.
Treasures & rituals should be considered acceleration, not ramp. Usually one-offs of treasures or rituals SHOULD be used to get commanders out 1-2 turns early, hence the classification of acceleration
i agree. i like that term acceleration.
Blue has retraced image
funny i just made a video about this
@@edhdeckbuilding sorry! I must have missed it. I'm a UPS driver and listen to you at work!
I think your definition is too limited. I get the reason for this is etymological, with Rampant Growth, but treasure and rituals are definitely ramp. Why? At a base line, ramp means any effect that gives you access to more mana than you would have access to by playing 1 land on each turn. Simple. The quantity of that mana or the permanence or lack thereof is a measure of the ramp's quality, but bad ramp is still ramp. This mean land fetching, land buffing (wild growth effects), mana rocks, mana dorks, cost reduction, treasure generators, ritual effects, and even untappers all fall into ramp and serve the same roll. This is why there is no red or blue or black rampant growth. They have their own versions of ramp in the color pie.
The other category of ramp that I think people forget is the Transform Lands - spells that transform into lands after being unlocked. Dowsing Dagger, Primal Amulet, Legions Landing, etc. These all give what amounts to an additional land drop, only they take a couple turns to resolve.
Unfortunately, commander's taboo against land destruction breaks this balance, so land fetch is heads and tails above all other ramp in commander, and without a major change, will continue to be.
I do not consider getting lands into hand ramp, btw. This falls under card advantage. Land tax might get you 9 plains into your hand, but without a way to get them on board, you are still at one land per turn. They are basically tutors.
Ouphe is pronounced OOF by the way.
White, prior to the push, was the worst color as it didn't have an identity that made white unique that didn't put frowny faces on other players' faces.
I really don't consider what white does as being ramp. Only because the cards catch you up to what your opponents are doing. You're not ramping ahead of your opponents. You can only ever go search for lands when you're already behind. So I don't really like considering them ramp. Because you're never going to pull ahead of your opponent. You're always going to be playing from the back foot. You're always going to be behind. And I really don't look at that as being ramp. When we're talking about ramp. I would much rather play any 2 drop rock that produces mana.
if you catch up to the opponent with the most lands then you are ramping ahead of everyone else.
@@edhdeckbuilding I get that... but 2nd place doesn't win the game. It is no better than 3rd or 4th.
@@MaricKillJoy getting as many lands as the guy who has the most ties you for first.
@edhdeckbuilding but it also puts you a turn behind. They will always have a turn advantage on you because you can never pull ahead. I strongly feel that all those white catch up cards are just a trap that keep you from achieving the most success.
@@MaricKillJoy so always play green? okay
you seem really stingy with what you would consider as "ramp", anything that gets you ahead of the mana curve, being able to cast spells at an earlier turn should be considered ramping.. calling it ramp as a call back to Rampant Growth is cool and all, but having a "skateboard" ramp as an image to get over your deck's mana curve is also cool..
Ramp is an acronym. R. A. M. P. : Repeatable Acceleration of Mana Production. 😂
I cringe when I see a green deck playing signets and talismans