When Shibiri said" Burn the Erdtree to the Ground . So Chaos Would Arise." I never felt so connected to a character. as a metal head and a deep thinker this is my calling
@@guillermolopez1377 The entire Flame of Frenzy questline, and especially Shabriri remind me of Lateralus by Tool. Things like embracing chaos and burning things down to become one is parallel to embracing the random and riding the spiral. Something a lot of Tarnished must feel is very comforting since their guidance and grace has been taken away from them, and feel their order in life has been lost. More so that even. Their order in life dictated that they must be lost, and they're probably are willing to cling to any little order or guidance that calls to them.
100 percent intellectually understood the flame of frenzy, now I have FELT it. Truly exceptional take on this lore, I know it was a risk but I greatly enjoyed that dip into despair to really grasp the philosophy at my core. Bravo.
_"Burn the Erdtree..._ _To the ground..._ _And incinerate all that divides and distinguishes!_ _Aaahhhh...May chaos take the world!_ *MAY. CHAOS. TAKE. THE WORLD!!!!!"*
What a fantastic name for a lore channel! For those of you who don’t know Ratatoskr carries information to and from the gods up and down Yggdrasil (the world tree that holds up all the worlds in Norse lore)
@@radagast7200 I'm surprised that some people are still clicking on the fact Elden Ring has a lot of Norse influence. We've got a giant World Tree, Gods battling each other as the end of the world approaches, the mortal ream at the mid of the tree, the dead at the roots of the tree (Hel), multiple layers of reality/realms, a _literal_ valkyrie who'll kick your ass seven ways 'till Sunday... And that's not even going into the fact the Elden Ring itself resembles the Triquetra or Radagon's cross hatch symbol is basically just the Web of Wyrd (ie. The symbol of Fate).
@@conspiracypanda1200 Torrent reminds me of Thor's goat steeds. Also the smith's anvil bears a resemblance to Mjolnir. I thought Rani was supposed to represent Hel though. After all she has a wolf brother who is fated to help slay the God of War. She also seems pretty linked with death and has a splt face kind of. I guess that would make her first victim a sort of Baldur (even though it was loki in the myths) which makes Marikas freak out and attempt to conquer death even more on point. Also, Rani spent alot of time in those underground eternal cities... Helhiem?
@@RomanvonUngernSternbergnrmfvus I didn't say Ranni was a wolf. Her 'brother' Blaidd is is. My implication was that Ranni was suppose to be Hel, whose brothers were Fenrir (a giant wolf who was fated to kill Thor, the God of War), and a giant snake named Jormungandr (destined to kill Odin). The three were children of Loki, who murdered (sort of) Freya's favorite son, Baldur, leading Freya (Merica in this theory) to become enraged and try to bring him back. Edit... Loki was responsible for the death of Baldur, not his children. Sorry if that was unclear.
This video is basically elaborated bait to expose unsuspecting viewers to Dostoyevsky's thoughts. And it's simply genius. I commend you for this format.
This is such a unique way to present the lore of the frenzied flame Honestly, this did A LOT in helping me to understand the philosophy behind it all. I knew the what the text was saying, but i never understood how you could come to those conclusions. This video helped me understand how someone could see life as a mistake.
This is pretty much how i felt when i was depressed, i viewed my existance as pure suffering. As such when i came upon the flame of frenzy i immediately knew what it was about
Interesting how in DS it is the flame that leads to disparity and distinction while in ER the frenzied flame leads grey ashen heap without distinction or difference.
@@raymondmaglaris4149 NGE instrumentality. All is one, our individuality melted away so none hath suffer alone or because of one another any longer. The boundaries of our souls united under one cosmic force; essentially a soul superfluid plasma. Like the beginning of the universe before there was duality of positive and negative. High energy indeed.
@@raymondmaglaris4149 That would still leave disparity, leaving a singular ‘super dense high energy cluster’. In order for everything to truly become one, to become equal and without disparity or distinction, all must be reduced to nothing and all energy evenly distributed; such that there exists only space with such little energy per femtometer as to be meaningless… Such that energy may as well not exist at all. (Heat Death of The Universe anyone?)
I mean even the DS fire eventually leads to the dark, and then to fire, to dark, to fire, until at the end of time everything is just ash. The Slave Knivht Gael fight takes place in a land where everything is equal, it is on the very edge of reverting back to the land of gray and of dragons. Very much like the frenzied flame
27:34 "Those tears are unatoned for. They must be atoned for." A beautiful line that exemplifies the feeling of righteous fury for those who have suffered
Of course it’s Dostoevsky. He’s a legend, I’m glad to listen to your reading. I wonder what other works of his could tie into Elden Ring and other Soulsborn games.
Melina (Flame of Ruin): "The flames may give us scars, but life is still worth the sacrifice." Shabriri (Flame of Frenzy): "No one deserves to suffer. Therefore, everyone must die."
I enjoyed the format, but I'd have liked a bit more of a tie-in back to Elden ring at the end. The point got across well, but maybe a reference to some of the suffering in Elden ring itself (e.g. the unjust entombment of tbe nomads that 'ignited the flame' in the lands between) to further synthesise the topic would have been great. That final point would've packed so much more of a whallop if it would be backdropped by that mournsome violin echoing through the mass grave. You got us in the right headspace but I feel like too little was done with it. This is a criticism born from enjoyment, mind you, it's just that you got me going and then gave me a proper blue-balling when it came to the climactic conclusion is all. Looking forward to further experiments.
This is the same feeling I had. You can't present a philosophical point and not tie it back to the game, the lore and its people. It doesn't work for entertainment and it's boring imo. It doesn't do enough to connect the ideologies of both stories in order have people understand "what does this have to do with the world of elden ring?"
My favorite part of the Flame of Frenzy is that it had been summoned by all the Merchants. Yes, all of the merchants that you find throughout the game. They were a Great Caravan. However, they were accused of heresy and buried alive under the sewers of Leyndell. They chanted a curse of depair and summon the Flame of Frenzy. You can find all of this information in the Nomadic Merchant's Set. You can also infer this by the fact that the merchants use Frenzied Flame incantations when you attack them and they play the same music as the zombies before the Three Finger's door.
That's FromSoft's environmental storytelling for ya. My favorite part was how on the next playthrough I noticed the fingerprints in the middle of the gigantic tombstone at the Morne Moangrave site. And I was like "is this where the fingerprint stone shield came from?"
In a cut feature, you could give npc’s a drink called dreambrew. It put them to sleep and revealed their darkest secrets. If you gave it to the merchant in the church of elleh, he would speak about the frenzied flames
"They were given paradise, they wanted freedom, and they stole fire from heaven, though they knew that they would become unhappy, so there is no need to pity them." That is a great line, like a pompous angel trying to justify to themselves what their god had created, and how it had gone wrong
Religion acknowledges the evil of the world. It’s repeatedly called a “Groaning world” in written text. Groaning being like and old house creaking and groaning, a house about to collapse on itself. To reference Tolkien for a moment because he was very religious and incorporated his beliefs into his work “Evil cannot create, it can only corrupt and destroy” this world is a world mired by evil and destined to collapse on itself. Mankind has the freedom to choose and for many that choice is cruelty, hatred and destruction and why shouldn’t they? Evil is a raging fire consuming the good and innocent because innocence rarely retaliates. They take from the good, the hard working and destroy all else they see unfit. Like a fire it will consume its source of life and destroy itself in time. Even the Bible acknowledges it because the End of Days is not by Gods hand, it’s by the hand of the people. Hell will become full with the weight of earths evil and spill back into the Earth. God will rescue the living destined for Heaven and leave the Earth to its evils. They will live hedonistic and unbound lives and to them it would be paradise and as they go to destroy the last church, God comes and destroys all the Universe. Everything brought to Zero. Then he will recreate the Universe and place the innocence that had be so long oppressed by evil onto the new world were evil no longer has a hold. It’s a story that says Evil exists and the world is plagued by it but this is how it should be because if we were unable to choose the kindness of the world would be worthless. Evil in all it’s cruelty is unsustainable. Kindness and innocence should not be mocked for its peaceful ways even in a cruel world because it is the kindness that’s so rare that will last ages and make life worth it and Eventually evil will burn itself out.
It's more than just one Angel i feel. It's as if God looked at his Angels and asked them what went wrong? He gave us free will, to love our neighbors the way we love our families, yet we war. We steal and cheat, and we destroy. Even now, as an Atheist Ivan tells to the Christian Man Alyosha, suffering is a thing in which everything lives through,from a beast of burden to the smallest child, and it is a notion that he finds to be unacceptable. Why must a child suffer for the sins of the father? Why must a man sadistically and elegantly torture his fellow man? He knows this answer, but if he were to acknowledge it, he was lose what makes him, him. He knows the fact, but remains blind to it until the day he can finally accept and understand it. Man is cruel, and despite our kindhearted nature, we would not hesitate to burn it down. If the world suffers, if the world bleeds, and all of humanity is to suffer for it, then mankind must die. To end the suffering of one, you must end the suffering of all. Let chaos take the world. Ahh... let chaos take the world...
@@nerfer200 I disagree with the conclusion but we understand the reason to the question “why?” it is because man can choose. Freedom of choice means you have the freedom to be wrong, just as you have the choice to be kind you also have the choice to be cruel. It is the small gem of beauty and justice in a coal ridden world of ugliness and cruelty that makes things worth living. Because that gem is precious. In the face of evil those that dare to remain kind are the greatest of us. Evil overtakes good and cruelty is like a fire that spreads and destroys everything including itself. Evil and cruelty are unsustainable in this manner and their will be a time where Evil can no longer burn in the world. It relies on weakness while Good exists in strength. Don’t mock kindness In it’s peaceful ways because in the face of adversity the Kind remain so and give that hope to others. When the fire dies down all that will remain are diamonds. Those specks of kindness are worth nurturing. They are unbreakable, even long after the good die their deeds do not go with them.
@Broomer52 But they do. Every act of kindness is just as easy to suffocate in the smallest flame of cruelty, and as humans, we are hardwired, our minds and bodies able and all too willing to bear the marks and scars of what hurt us while we are made to strive and remember, with a flawed and susceptible brain, to cling to the good we give and receive. Pleasure bears no scars. Kindness can not exist without self conceit. Everything we live for dies, yet our pain and suffering will long outlast us. For every moment of geity at a memorial, countless outcries of greif snd longing echo the graves of the earth.The fact is that the universe, including all of us, has no love, no care, no place for us. Our existence is an anomaly, a speck of mold that has, so far, escaped adrift in the sea of bleach that is the cosmos. And for that exclusion, we pay indefinitely in blood, in suffering, in a perpetual fight with each other, ourselves, our nature, the laws of the universe itself, it's flowing tides of cold indifference that would wash us over in cosmic bleach in an instant, should the nature of it tip the domino appropriately. To grant a diamond shell to the good, created by the crushing fires of anguish and pain of those outside it is nothing more than upholding the same sacrifice of the many for the good of the few that these philosophies expose as unjust, and unworthy of existence. I dont say any of this to encourage depression, to rob anyone of a purpose in living, but only to illustrate that life itself bears torment in its very nature, and to deny it, to excuse it, is falling into delusion.
The simple "Never mind, I want to suffer too" from Alyosha hits me deeply, Ivan hadn't explained his point and yet he was beginning to understand, and once you begin to understand you don't wanna stop
This is a great take on the Flame of Frenzy, its not about its ingame lore reasons, its the conception and idea behind it, and i think this is the best take you could have made to have it understandable for everyone who listens.
I'm really glad there's someone doing a more analytical take on the lore. I love the literal analyses and the collection and speculation of story people like Vaati offer, but I'm very happy that now, someone is looking behind the curtain.
Agreed. A lot of lore videos get hung up on interpretive speculation based on what's happening visually on screen and don't focus so much on the author's messages and what those mean. What are the writers of this game trying to say about these characters? Where do those messages come from? The kind of literary analysis done in this video is just not done often enough.
@@Dr_Mel This, in my opinion, is more important than the literal lore. Fantasy is all about sending real world, philosphical messages through fantastical quests.
@@Dr_Mel Thats why one of the best dark souls 3 analysis videos is by Jacob Geller, it almost entirely ignores the very existent story that reinforces his take, but just goes off on the atmosphere, music, design etc and hits the nail on the head what the story is about, because stories are just vessels to vent out real world ideas, problems, thoughts and philosophies.
When considering the Brothers Karamozov it is important to remember that Dostoyevsky was a believer/had faith, but he doesn't strawman the opposing view. It is just something to keep in mind.
Which is what also makes crime and punishment also such an amazing book, the different perspectives of what's right or wrong and justice is very thought provoking. The final conclusion of Brothers Karamazov that I got was that religion isn't important on itself, nor for believer or for an atheist. Since the ultimate goal of religion has already taken place in history, to serve as a foundation to bring order and create a moral compass for society.
yes, brothers karamazov is perhaps the greatest illustration in artistic history of the pain and suffering of having actual, genuine faith - which requires looking into the deepest depths of horror and defiantly refusing to blink
@@Dragonswiftx Like good plot development is built on overcoming pain, and good strategy on the respect of one's enemies; so too is goood debate built on the belief of the integrity and sincerity of the side that one opposes. For even if they are not rational, there is a fundamental and humanistic metric to emotion; like many pieces of evidence become a case in court, enough pain added together becomes a reason and motivation in and of itself - and damn where it comes from or why. The subjectivity of pain is the strength of the devil. A splinter and a bullet can cause equal pain in two different people, and both will scream. Was the rage of the man at the injury of his dog equal to the rage of the mother at the death of her son? And the poor, dumb dog; were it able to speak, would it have also asked for the child who wronged it to die? I think it would have.
I think this passage perfectly expresses the concept of the frenzied flame madness, but not just in it's tone. The very fact that Ivan speaks at such length exudes that compulsion behind madness, that NEED to communicate his madness and, in a way, infect his brother with the very same seeds. In Elden Ring, this madness is very physically represented by the flame from the eyes but it is painful to the individual to release it. The very act of speaking of madness can sometimes make it more painful.
I loved this, I still haven’t dived deep into the lore of the frenzied flame, but from what little I’ve seen, and with this, I understand. Life should end not because of hatred towards the living, not because life is not worth living, but because life means senseless suffering, and nothing is worth paying that price, so let it all burn. It’s a very interesting philosophy to study, even when disagreeing with it. It’s easy to see why the brother let the other talk, same reason why we watch this video.
indeed, while it is a fundementely flawed view, it is also a very human, core emotional view that speaks to the heart of what it means to be human. that makes it hard to just dismiss, or to ignore it once youve heard it.
@@MonroeSim What a loaded assumption. Alcohol. Weed. Psychosis. Sleep deprivation. Perhaps im insane. Perhaps im just peculiar or weird. Smart people dont assume. They learn.
Loved the reading. This little experiment was successful in my case at least. Only thing I'd say is that I think I would have enjoyed a bit more discussion at the end. Not because you didn't make your point, more so because I was enjoying the ride so much.
Exactly my feeling. How great would it have been to have tied it all back to the despair of the characters related to the frenzied flame in game? Like Yura likely killing himself in despair after defeating his old partner/lover who has been consumed by the power of dragons and blood and thus becoming a vessel for Shabriri? The nomads playing their song of suffering and despair to summon the manifestation of the flame in the shadowed catacombs of the capital, entombed alive? The mystery of Irina/Hyetta and Edgar... there was still such fertile ground for further tie-ins and discussion, ahhhhh. MAY CHAOS TAKE THE WORLD.
I love that you read Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov has a soft spot in my heart. I would like to note that the scene about the horse being whipped on the eyes and beaten to death also appears in another Dostoevsky novel, "Crime and Punishment" and it's something the author watched as a boy. I can only imagine how this young boy must have felt watching this defenseless animal needlessly suffering and how that impacted him as a man.
You've started down this path -- I beg that you continue so that many more can understand the dark truths that lie within the soulsbourne series. These games, and many others, hold the key to encouraging the philosophically uninterested to glimpse beyond the curtain. Even if only for a moment. Thank you
YES. THIS THIS THIS. They're absolutely gateways for so many different philosophies. Existentialism, Entropy, Nihilism, Death and Rebirth, Duality of Existence, Free Will vs Determinism, The Concept of Time, Deism. There's so much there in each of the games. More lore youtubers need to do this and look outside of the text of the game to gain a more round understanding of their concepts. Its why videos like this one and Jacob Geller's Dark Souls 3 Is Thinking of Ending Things are some of my favorites.
@@ATC43 I think one of the problem with trying to tie outside philosophies onto the game is, it is very possible that one are just projecting it onto the work regardless if it's actually there or not. One unfortunate example is pretty much anyone who tries to attribute their preferred philosophy and/or values onto Tolkien's works, claiming that his works absolutely have allegories pertaining to [insert whatever here]. I am not saying this to forbid nor dismiss this process as just "reading too much into it" since even I find most videos like the one Rata made here to be very enjoyable and insightful, I guess I'm just saying this to give a reason why not many people want to risk sounding pretentious.
@@shira_yone That's a fair point. Though I also think it's important to consider that, although authors may not specifically intend to depict some religious or moral philosophy, they often still do. Particularly in the west with Judeo-Christian beliefs and ideas. When you start to look for it and break it down there are tons of parallels between all kinds of stories and philosophies. Most stories are just repackaging some ideas that have already been iterated on countless times. And I don't think that's a bad thing by any means. Point is I don't think it's unfair or wrong to seek out parallels between these things. I don't necessarily believe that projecting your beliefs onto some work is wrong. I definitely think it can be poorly thought out and not be a good projection or connection. But there is nothing wrong with finding unintentional parallels in any work as long as the parallel makes sense. lol. Hopefully what i'm saying makes sense. Haha. I don't even know if i'm actually making a good point or addressing anything. More of just a thought dump.
@@ryanhopkins5239 audience having interpretations of their own and someone proclaiming that the author of the art having the same interpretation as them are 2 different things. Other than that, yes that may be so. All I'm saying is just be careful not to cross the line and became the latter (like that really dumb article claiming Elden Ring was about the pandemic). What you said isn't exactly relevant to what I was saying, no offense.
It’s kind of crazy how often video games build an entirely new world, but then ask the exact same questions in our world. I remember playing Witcher 3 and thinking about the interpretation of the bloody Baron and his family, for example. A Christian might feel sympathy for the Baron, being cuckolded while away at war and providing for his family. Not to mention his wife’s abortion and her apparent success in turning his daughter against him despite her own flaws. A secular person, OTOH, will more likely see the Baron as a monster and hate him. Seeing the complete disarray that is the world of Elden Ring, it can be totally understandable that one would even prefer the nihilistic route that the frenzied flame represents. After all, you look at the cities and towns in the Lands Between (like Leyndell, and the smaller towns like the Windmill village, Sellia, Village of the Albinaurics, etc) and see them completely depopulated and destroyed beyond a few enemies mindlessly programmed to attack you. What’s even here to preserve? Liurnia is flooded, and Caelid is engulfed in scarlet rot and surrounded by walls of fire to keep it out of Limgrave. Even the eternal cities are ruined.
I don't get the dichotomy of Christian and secular. You can justify the wife and the husband in both worldviews. The wife did the cheating and turned the daughter against her father. That's very easy to feel sympathy for him in a secular worldview.
This reminds me so much of I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream. It's a story about humans using supercomputers and machines to fight their wars for them. Except the supercomputers merge and become self aware. The machine calls itself AM and has a existential crisis. It realizes that even though it is godlike and can control every computer in the world It will still never be anything other than a machine. It can never experience touch or ever "live". AM sees this as an inexcusable flaw in it's design and cannot bear an imperfect existence. It causes him unimaginable suffering and he becomes self hating. The Agony of it drives AM to blame his human creators and hate humanity for creating AM. So he wipes out all life except for 5 humans so he can spend eternity making the world their own personal hell. AM hates his own existence so much that he assumes his creators are evil simply for building him.
A selfaware supercomputer could conquer the galaxy i think it could make a physical body with nanobots and be able to feel and "live" lol. Or is it more complicated that this?
@@Darth_Bateman Saying stupid stuff without really explaining anything does not contribute anything to the conversation. You probably think that life is somehow special and "living" can not be achieved by "non-living" material which is just wrong. I will stop speculating what your beliefs are though you can write them, but you probably won't since you don't really know anything. Also stop using infinity in a metaphorical sense, nothing can be "infinitely more complicated".
@@Darth_Bateman To start off, even if i m wrong and you are right, your first comment didn't contribute anything to the conversation, you didn't explain anything you just said "i disagree" which does nothing. I was right on that and i hope you can agree if you are as smart as you think. Now to the main subject. You do make your opinion clear but you still don't really explain why my thought process is wrong. I said "A selfaware AI could conquer the galaxy => (therefore) it can make nanobots and have the sense of touch". You said that s not possible without answering why is it not possible. Let me make my case more clear, an AI which is aware and conscious will keep making itself smarter and smarter and with the use of internet it won't be long before it has surpassed the intelligence of all of humanity. Explain why this statement is false. Also there are many physicists, philosophers and such which agree that such an AI is a real danger to humanity, do you disagree with them too?.
@@Darth_Bateman Still haven't answered? Come on i want to know more since you obviously know that much. It can't be that you actually searched up the subject and realised you re wrong, that would never happen. But in the off chance it did please tell me. I want you to link me your sources so i can check them out. You don't start a debate with someone call him stupid (which i may well be if i m so wrong and your claims are much more likely than mine) and then proceed to ignore him. If you are reading this and this is what you are doing you need to take a good look in the mirror and question your morality, your value and your intelligence.
@@ilias-4252 wow... i never comment and i did not expect people to get so heated about the first comment i make... wild... Also, to contribute to your question. AM never conquers a galaxy, only earth. AM is hyper intelligent yes, but is limited by the technology of his creators. AM also would have no basis to understand how to "feel". That would be like asking a person who has always been blind to comprehend sight. Even if he did have the ability to do so, any attempt he made to be anything other than a machine would only be an imitation. So even if he could "feel" he could never know if it was accurate to the biological experience or a failed attempt. Also keep in mind AM is portrayed as basically insane and egomaniacal sooooo his thoughts and actions might not always be sensical lol.
I've been skeptical as ive heard you talk about this in other videos, but that was really cool. It did really convey the feeling you were trying to explain.. I guess why try to explain it yourself when you can quote something like that? well done dude
The Flame of Frenzy represents a type of nihilism born from despair and that despair no longer being contained as it consumes everything in its miserable howling , rejecting life itself. The dark side of the color yellow is often associated with madness, the book the King in Yellow being a prime example of this. I've felt this nihilistic despair and struggle with it still from time to time but the counter to this belief is to hold life and its potential for something better to a greater value than the suffering that exists and that's really difficult but when you finally break from that cycle you have a clarity of just how beautiful this world truly is and gain a greater appreciation for it. It truly is madness, it locks you in a mental cycle that narrows your thinking from all potential and possibilities so you only see destruction as the only possible answer. Funny enough the Castlevania anime posits a similar quandary and has a character counter by saying " Say you get what you want and kill all the people in the world. You end human cruelty yes but you end human kindness too. No more jokes, no more surprises." But then he goes on to ask the other character with this mindset why not teach others to try and make that suffering a little less by your own hands(paraphrasing but that's the gist of it). It frames the mindset of yellow nihilism as one of extreme deprivation but asks the person locked in it to use that unique perspective to help make less suffering in the world and in turn less suffering for themselves. This way you are channelling that pain, the agony of those that have suffered and continues to suffer in to something positive, to increase life's potential for something better and in a way avenge that suffering. This was long but this video really got me thinking.
Sadly, I really don't get any comfort from being in the same boat with all of you. Too many scum keep shooting the floor. Not enough men want them thrown overboard.
There is a fault with that, what if they have tried numerous times and seen others fail and suffer. You cannot talk a terrorist out of killing, a general from slaughtering civilians, a murder from killing, a company from polluting for money, and so on. Like is both beautiful and cruel, the beauty cannot overwhelm the pain because those in pain cannot see the beauty, even if they can it is mundane compared to the quantity of cruelty they face. Any good you do to erase suffering can be undone in an instant, it has happened and will continue to happen, because it is nature. And I say that as someone who isn't a nihilist
@@latel4544 You're missing the point of what I said entirely. The goal is the effort put in not necessarily the end itself as there will always be suffering. I said nothing about ending it as that's not possible. You focus on what you can do and you keep trying. Your essentially making an argument for inaction which is exactly how that nihilistic despair I described traps you. "Since life has no intrinsic meaning the collective suffering of life outweighs anything good life has to offer so it would be better if we all just disappeared" is what the Flame of Frenzy represents in relation to us. My point is that to overcome that lie you need to be able to see the value of life beyond just the suffering and do what's within your power to make less suffering and in turn make your own suffering less. This can be done in a myriad of ways and when you realize that despite all of the terrible things in life good can happen and life contains that potential for better and as long as that potential exists life isn't just suffering.
I don't think it's about "rejecting life itself" more like rejecting individual life and making all life one. Hyetta's particular dialogue is "melt it all away, until all is one again." I think it's important that she doesn't just leave it on "melt it all away"
@@JacobPDeIiNoNi It's a mixture of both, in the themes of elden ring you make it one again because that is how life was prior to the mistake, if there is no individual there can be no suffering no thought. But that conclusion philosophically is gathered from "all life suffers and to end it all life must end. As that is better than the suffering life causes" I'm speaking of both the Frenzied Flame and the literature. As that sentiment has been used a lot in recent years for antagonists but usually misunderstood
From what I gather, the Frenzied Flame is neither good nor evil... it's something different. It's melancholy, anguish, and despair incarnate. Of all the places it manifests at, it manifests where folk have suffered the most, like the merchants who've been persecuted and genocided because of the plague that cursed their people, or the Erdtree soldiers displaced all over Mount Gelmir who faced great losses during Morgott's crusade against Volcano Manor, or the graceless Tarnished who are constantly treated with vitriol and prejudice just because of the greater forces that be, which they have no control over. Even the Three Fingers, what we're led to believe are the source of the Frenzied Flame, appear to be in pain, despair, and suffering, and when they transfer the flame over to us... they crumble to dust and ashes, dead, gone... free from the torment they felt. When you think about it, it's less like some evil being branding us with its curse, and more like some desperate creature trying to free itself of some horrible agony that befell upon it... which leads me to wonder why the Three Fingers were down there in the first place. Why are they considered the symbol of chaos if they too wish to be freed of it?
That’s an interesting thought the only reason I can really think of is because the three fingers are just as deep as deep root depths and thanks to tarnished archeologist we know that’s the location of the lower part of leyndell or atleast what’s left of it. Imagine a siege being so bad the entire lower part of the city collapses hundreds of meters underground that’s a good 10k+ dead instantaneously maybe even more that and the siege and probably the despair of those shunned underground is probably the reason the three fingers are there so like it’s either 1 the three fingers are kind of like a jujustu kaisen type of spirit that manifests where there’s the most suffering (also toms of dead bodies before we get down there of people who’ve gone mad also wonder how that happened) or it’s just it’s original location right below the erdtree which I have my own questions of why the two fingers are three fingers are so close yet so far from eachother
It isn't attracted to suffering as much as it is attracted to death per se, it seems. Through death comes suffering so that certainly has a part in it, but the final catalyst of it all is death, without a chance for rebirth.
This is the third time that I have watched this video, you laid out your points so eloquently. I think that you really portrayed what the frenzied flame is all about. Even though I strongly disagree with the nihilistic worldview held by the frenzied flame worshipers, this is still a very well made video & I could not have done it better myself if I tried.
The Frenzied Flame ideology is very similar to that of Instrumentality in Neon Genesis Evangelion. The idea that the world should return to where it all began. Everyone and everything all melting into one primordial soup, one collective where there are no boundaries, no suffering and no life. All would be one and as such no one would ever be alone, no one would ever suffer again. This was a breath of fresh air from all the videos the cover the lore in its literal sense. It was nice watching something that tackles the philoshical ideas and themes that go beyond the standard plot.
Man...this was a hard hitting video. Showing the mindset one has to walk through to get to a place that all life must be avenged for the wrongdoing and suffering that was caused. Kinda makes sense why the starting of the actual frenzied flame quest starts with Edgar as he sought the very revenge of his daughter and continue on in a maddened bloodlust to murder others as well.
I think the game actually makes a strong case for Frenzied Flame, because every person you meet is suffering in this world, one way or another. And even nature itself is suffering greatly, is corrupted and deformed.
@@DraconianDeus I agree. What is left if Ranni wins, or Goldmask rune wins? The Lands Between are still governed by war, and slavery, and cruelty, and rot. Let it all burn.
@@vyor8837 When your dog is dying painfully but its tail still wags when you pet it and feed it treats despite its suffering, you don't feel inclined to prolong the suffering, no? Most people instead opt to take their dog to the vet to say goodbye and put it down. I don't agree that the Frenzied Flame is the way to go, but I can still understand why someone would see it as a viable option. There are more than just a "few" people suffering and sinning in the Lands Between, the entire world is dying horribly and for every genuinely nice person you find, a hundred more are suffering. Hell, the few kind people the Tarnished helps in their travels just wind up dead or worse in most cases; why not just end _everyones'_ suffering by melding the world?
that story was a wonderful way to get people in the right headspace. It shares some truths that I have shared with people. Personally the frenzied flame hits a little close to home for me in its desires. to explain this: When one is condemned for the sin of existence, shamed for what they never asked for, and refused compassion in their darkest hour, they will learn hate. If they are to find one that accepts them however, that shows them love. They will learn zealous loyalty. now if that person is ripped away from them in the most heinous of ways, by those who have hurt them all their life. There is only madness, and the desire to burn it all down.
This vid was fantastic. While I haven't read The Brothers Karamazov, I have read some other Dostoevsky literature, and I love the exploration of the human condition within said books. It would also be cool of you to discuss the other endings of the game as well.
You got me with this one. I closed my eyes as you read the passage and felt that flame of anger and injustice burning inside me, almost wishing for the end of all the childrens suffering by any means. I get it. I think I felt the flame of frenzy through that passage. Wonderful work. Also made me realize I should probably try out audiobooks because my ADHD brain could never follow russian literature but I followed this wonderfully. Thank you.
I have very very unmedicated ADHD and listening to audiobooks is how I fall asleep every night. Tonight I'm listening to one that is like a journey through the milky way. So I plan to close my eyes and imagine those giant structures out there and, hopefully, dream of them. Audiobooks are phenomenal and they've changed the way I live in a very real way. Go get Audible. Lay down for a nap one day and just close your eyes and paint a picture in your mind. Hell, you might even be disappointed that you have to go back to the real world when the nap ends... 😉
I have ADD, so like the other guy and you I am with you with the same mental state. and Audio books have really transformed how I am able to enjoy literature. before it would take me months to even open a book, let alone read it for a longer time period. but with an audio book, every time I'm in the train, or waiting for something I can listen to a little passage and it's so much easier.
Sometimes people with ADHD find it very helpful to have an audiobook playing while they read the words on paper/screen at the same time (I've occasionally heard this referred to as 'immersive reading'). If you decide to have a go at The Brothers Karamazov, it's an old enough book to be in the public domain so you can get both the text and recordings of people reading the audio for free to give it a shot and see how it goes.
I want to say that I am someone who also has fucking awful ADHD, but also has found in themselves the ability to sit down and read from a physical book for thirty+ minutes a day. I have found in my own experience that when you begin to actually get something out of a book, you are able to bear with your own tendency to look away. ADHD can hurt, but it can also, by its nature, make reading several thousand times more rewarding, and being able to see the text for yourself and to stop reading and start reading, to go back and reread with only the flick of your eye, is incredibly rewarding. Once you get a taste of what reading can offer, the harder task of reading from a page is suddenly made far easier, because your ADHD brain literally derives its everything in that moment from what those words say to it, and the freedom that physically reading a book gives to the mind is incredible. Now, everyone is different, and one persons experience with ADHD can be very different from another, and by no means am I attempting to shame anyone for reading an audiobook. Audiobooks are good, and if one feels they need that format to actually read a book, then it’s a worthwhile thing to do.
The pinned comment represents what happens to a generation of minds steeped in "cinematic" "universe" analysis. Like you said in your dark souls 3 videos, it's a failure to engage with the metaphorical. Folding Ideas has a great video about this in regards to the movie Annihilation. Just because the Frenzied Flame is an outer god in the context of the literal events of the game doesn't negate its role as a literary metaphor. Really getting tired of "cinemasins" level "criticism" hijacking the conversations we have about art. edit: great video.
Yes and no. Metaphor is how you personally choose to interpret say the frenzied flame. Some authors like Tolkien resolutely deny that their stories were allegorical in any way to anything other than the story they were telling. If you choose to put FS "stories" on a certain level that's more a statement of yourself. You might reject the simple character drama of the game's plot and focus on artistic metaphor, but then I'd go even farther and say that's a reflection of yourself and your willingness to overindulge in meandering and vague writing for a videogame.
@@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS Are you implying there is no authorial intent to convey themes through storytelling in fromsoftware games? Do you seriously think that they didnt intend for these allegories to be drawn from their work? You say that Tolkein explicitly denied doing such a thing, but why the hell do you assume that Fromsoftware is the same? To anyone who does even the slightest analysis of their storytelling, it is abundantly clear that these are intentional parallels made to build themes.
@@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS @Alpha Beef Tbh your both right and wrong, every story told has almost a form of metaphor but also direction, of course story's can be heavily influenced one way or the other but the writers personal life and also philosophical understanding or view can have influence, just like the story itself untied from the writers life created from imagination or told from a source does too. You can't really have one without the other even a tiny bit creeps in at either spectrum. I also agree that the writers of the game had a vision and deeper meaning to there work and theme, while also agreeing that they leave it open ended and prices missing so that the consumer/viewer has to solve it and form his own understanding and opinion of what they were trying to say, like all good story's creating discussion like us right now on who's right and what means what. So wouldn't bother arguing when no one is right or wrong completely just opinions in the grand scheme, just glad there's story's being told like this that broaden the imagination and can actually form deeper meaning if you choose to look for it.
@@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS that is pretty much why I like the souls style of storytelling since it leaves room for interpretation and discourse. Now we do know there has been many themes that does return in the games, and you can find those just by the environmental storytelling. Which is pretty cool
My God. Absolutely wonderful. That excerpt captivated me, and I felt the anger and indignation. The reasoning was solid, and the emotional appeal was gripping. I understood what the Flame of Frenzy was, but I didn't understand adhering to it. I now do. Fantastic video, though I would've liked more discussion at the end.
But you would never experience the beauty of life You would become nothing And Despair, suffering, torment and pain is what makes life meaning yes it drains our strength and will as time goes But there is beauty in it....what gives life purpose is what you must find for yourself To evolve, to experience, and to get through the obstacles in your path Although Life is bound by rules it is acceptable
@@Vergil4093 That's a selfish and priveleged perspective of someone who has freedom. Think of the child killed at 8 by hunting dogs. They did not have choice or freedom. I will not take my own life or any others'. But I agree with the idea that what beauty life and consciousness has to offer is not worth the suffering of the innocent. It would have been better to not exist.
@@TheOneFoolishMan and what choice of freedom do you give to them . You do not allow them to experience or to think and in the decision of existence you are are equally selfish as anyone else for the decision is only made by you're own view.
My dad raised us as jehovah's witnesses and it's taken me so many years to understand all the wrong that cult did to us. He would hit us quoting bible verses, it felt like we were walking on eggshells, he was one way in front of all his "brothers and sisters" and another way with his own family, but this was all okay because the cult permits it. I use to get mad at my nephews and nieces and would yell at them a lot, my whole family to be honest has that problem even now. I'm shaking right now at what this video means, we all have that devil inside us that wants to burn everything down in retaliation for what was done to us all. Even so, I want to hold on to what Melina said "However ruined this world has become, however mired in torment and despair, life endures. Births continue. There is beauty in that, is there not?" There really has to be more to this life than despair and uncertainty. There is beauty in it, even if I'm scared in participating in it, I still want to try.
My parents both had very, very difficult childhoods, and their parents before them. BUT MY CHILDHOOD was loving, and wonderful, and I love my Mom and Dad with all my heart and soul. My parents CHOSE to break the cycle of violence, to break the wheel that crushes all who came before. My life has been wonderful, and supportive, and so I am a living testament that beauty exists, and that a bright future is real! The answer is not to burn the world to ashes, the answer is to break the wheel and establish a Logic to the world; to design a civilization that educates it's people in kindness, human rights, and logic. That teaches people child-phycology (like what my mother learned), so that parents do not fall to their most evil instincts when raising their children, but instead behave as My Mother did, with calmness, logic, and understanding. Love is real, Love has value, and it is up to US to give our love to all around us! To raise our children to be BETTER than us, to raise our futures to greater heights, and the reject the backwards, bronze age nonsense that permits evil men to quote dusty books while tormenting children. Life, itself, has no inherent meaning, or purpose. WE give life meaning, WE only have that power, and so it is up to US to seek Justice and spread meaningful education to all the world, so that mankind can have the wisdom to choose love and human rights over the demons that lurk within them. And THAT is very possible! I am living proof of it, and so is my Mother and Father!
The argument made here only works if you accept the premise that no amount of suffering is worth the beauty of existence. You could make an alternative argument, that there is some amount of beauty in life that would be worth untold suffering. But the idea of the video was to steelman that position to get you into the mindset of one who would seek to destroy it all. And it was very effective.
@@JokerDoom Granted steelmanning doesn't mean that a mindset has to be agreed with or a point of view can't be disagreed with. I do understand it, but even understanding this view point I don't agree with it. I don't have to agrue with this steelmanned line of thinking anyway either, I can give my reason for disagreeing and that is that. It has taught me to understand this viewpoint, but also taught me even more so to reject it with every fiber of my being for the argument is the eradication of everything we hold dear. And that cannot be reasoned with, but, simply defied and pushed back against.
Subscribed. As an avid audiobook and philosophy fan, and Elden Ring player, this was pure gold. Ivan a benevolent nihilist, and thus is the frenzied flame.
Man, hearing finding out that there was a way to end the suffering of not just everyone, but every*thing* in the lands between made me finally feel like there was an ending I WANTED to reach in a Souls Game. Say what you will, but to me, this is the good ending.
I strongly disagree. I think it would be awful to wipe out all of life just because some of it is bad. That said, I find it wonderful that Miyazaki and his team managed to create such a deep world with such genuinely powerful philosophies that for once, there is no one "bad ending". It shows how morality is never absolute but relative to personal values.
I don't even wish for the end of everything, but no one is offering a better alternative! People are always crying about how evil the frenzied flame ending is, when the best they offer instead is just a new group being privileged and doing nothing about suffering. To those ignorant people, since you see life beautiful enough to accept suffering, I wish you all the suffering, illness, ugliness, sin and curse in your addiction to life.
The Frenzied Flame ending is no different than what Thanos was trying to accomplish. In every story in which somebody tries to destroy the world/universe to end all suffering, the person responsible is always the villain, no matter how sympathetic they are. It doesn't matter how you justify it, no one has the right to make that choice on behalf of everyone else.
@@Galamoth06did you ask to be born? No one gets a choice about anything in this life. They're simply handed what they're handed and make due with it. Both Thanos and the frenzied flame are very relatable to me since they accept that what they're doing isn't necessarily good. The whole point is that we're incapable of fixing the world. Thanos chose his way thinking it was best though I do think he had a bit of an ego. But with the frenzied flame, it's really hard for me to argue that it's a morally bad ending in an objective sense. Maybe not the most favorable to most people, but I agree that implicit in the division of the one great is the possibility (some might say inevitability) of disharmony. Of course, those are just media, in real life, people's practical approaches and actions are often quite different. But in my mind, there's no denying that for however bleak or nihilistic the rhetoric of the frenzy flame may sound, there's a solid, logical basis to it's goals and even if I wouldn't myself choose them, I certainly can't begrudge anyone who does, knowing what people can suffer in this world
So the flame of frenzy is like the Human Instrumentality Project in Neon Genisis Evangelion. It's trying to destroy all barriers and make everything one again. It happens when Shinji gives up on humanity and wants it all to die. No more individuality, no more pain, no more conflict. I wouldn't be surprised seeing Marika is similar to Lilith being a god like being with having a red spear in her side and being crucified.
No, I don't think that's an accurate read at all. The Instumentality Project is about destroying all barriers, yes. But the difference is what happens after. In Evangelion when those barriers are destroyed it means a person's soul returns to the godhead, they become one with the universe in a state of utter joy and happiness, and because we can literally see the process, the angels leading the charge and all of it, we know that means they are literally being reunited with god. They're becoming part of god and are effectively being raptured to heaven. The Flame of Frenzy is not sending anyone to any god. It's ending *everything* including the cycle and the process of the soul to go to any deity, get reincarnated, or be reunited with anything. It's just . . . the end. Nothingness. It's the equity of the graveyard on a universal scale.
An enigmatic crucified being with a very conspicuous shard that, once removed, triggers it into action by the desire of another entity (the beast) is an extremely close parallel, now that you mention it. The arc was much more prominent, of course, but the red shard from the presumable beating that body undertook was, of course, a very deliberate choice for the aesthetic. Pretty interesting.
"The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" I hadn't read this short story previous to watching this video. But as you were reading those 17 pages, I remembered a conversation I had with an old friend from high school on this story he was reading in english class. He had told me that in this story, there is a city called Omelas. It is a perfect city where everybody is happy and no one suffers. No one except one singular child. This child is locked away from all people and suffers miserably everyday so that the rest of the city may live in happiness. Now most people when they find this out are, for good reason, disgusted. But they choose to go on living their life in Omelas not in blissful ignorance but in acceptance of the truth. However, there are those who are not content with this small sin upon their city. These are the ones who walk away in search of an even better world, or at the very least, reject this one. The reason I was reminded of this is because of Ivan. Omelas is proof (in this fiction) that even the most perfect of worlds always has suffering. And to me, if I understood the point of the passage correctly (it really may have just flown right over my head), Ivan would've walked away from Omelas. For it is a lie. And I think that is the message of the Frenzied Flame. That you can either blissfully ignore the suffering, embrace it, or upend the whole of it and seek to destroy it. Awesome video regardless. I would love someone to correct me on my points though if I really just missed the ball on this take.
@@FlyfishermanMike but who does the suffering and why must they suffer? Is that suffering worth the happiness? How much suffering to happiness is proportional? Enough to know the difference? Is a single child forever tormented worth the joy of a city? Should millions slave to serve a noble few? Could it not be argued that the lack of knowledge to suffering or joy be preferable to any amount of physical, mental, and emotional anguish?
@@FlyfishermanMike I would do much to live a life where I felt nothing at all, for once to have a middling day, and not one where I orgasm, and 300 where I cry.
From what I understood, Frenzied flame is the state where a being realizes its purpose. Which is none. There is absolutely no reason to go on because deep inside, we all know: We are a "badly made" specie (The mistake mentionned by Hayata) . Always seeking for more and more. Never satisfied with our current status. A vicious circle that will ALWAYS bring suffering (physical or mental). And to avoid that, we can temporary escape that suffering with the suffering of the others. By being "Superior". In intelligence, in fortune, in success, the list goes on and on. But as a badly made specie, we adapt, and we want more. "Just a little bit more" we often hear. From facts and books, we can also conclude that the biggest of Humanity is the Boredom. This, for me at least, is one of the biggest source of suffering. Boredom is the actual feeling of feeling useless as, by nature, we get used to pretty much everything we might get an interest into. And so, we ask for more, to distract our mind, as we absolutely DON'T WANT, to be alone with our mind and our thoughts and questions about life's meaning (What should I do now.... at what cost...?) We are a specie that loves to feel superior to its pair. Therefore, there will ALWAYS people inferiors to others. Frenzied Flame is, in a way, the consciousness. The consciousness to exist. An animal, have the ability to simply sleep when it has nothing to do. When it's time to hunt, it will hunt. When it's time travel, it will travel. They have no time to think about their "purpose". Constantly fighting for their life. As the ultimate Apex specie, we've come to a point where there is no "survival" anymore. We have too much time for ourself. The Boredom is a human and only human thing. The only specie to know and endure this feeling every know and then. An extremely new feeling a the scale of our Planet's life. Another famous quote that could perfectly describe what is the Frenzied flame is: Hard times create strong people Strong people create good times Good times create weak people The ultimate vicious circle specific to our specie. The world of Elden Ring, fulfilled with gigantic and magnificent castles and such (Good times)..., Today, there is nothing but ruins (Hard times). The Frenzied Flame is when someone will have the horror though "What now... What should I do.... At what cost" Anyway, great video and very instructive! (Am not depressed tho haha. Life will always win I hope! Big kisses to everyone who had the patience this read this pile of crap X)
Wow. I came for elden ring, I left with enlightenment. This took quite the turn into realism and just wow. I love this, and it makes the frenzied flame all the more recognizable.
Wow, I never would've thought I will find a video relating the work of my favorite writer to one of the endings of my favorite game. You should check out "The beggar boy at Christ's Christmal Tree" if you want to use Miquella's needle on your newly discovered frenzied flame. It's a short but bittersweet story. Mostly bitter but the sweet part is still very rare for Dostoyevsky. I guess I would like use this opportunity to say a little bit about Dostoyevsky in general: His way of writing about madness is absolutely immaculate. Dostoyevsky suffered immensely through his life. His own execution was stopped at the very last moment and instead he was sentenced to 8 years of hard labour in Siberia (although the order from the emperor came much earlier and the whole execution was basically staged. Yeah, russians have a wicked sense of humor). It is said that one of the rebels sentenced to execution actually went insane during this performance. There are a couple of recurring ideas in Dostoevsky's novels such as: pettiness of soul (which can be seen in many characters across all of his works) , in this particular case - in Fedor Karamazov, existential boredom and indolence like in Nikolai Stavrogin and, of course, madness. Themes of madness appear in Crime and Punishment, Gambler, Idiot, Brothers Karamazov but no other work could capture it better than "The Possessed". In this book the whole town gets consumed by madness and if you want to feel like the one who is fully consumed by the frenzied flame look no further than at the character of Petr Verhovensky. Here are some pieces from what is possibly the best frenzied monologue in history (at least in my opinion). This is only a part of the monologue with some parts cut and the book covers a plethora of ideas apart from the ones I mentioned earlier. But the site portrayed by Dostoevsky of characters consumed by chaos and wickedness is both mesmerizing and terrifying at the same time. Anyway, I hope I managed to pick your interest with my half-assed attempt of elaborate speaking in the foreign language. I truly believe that Dostoyevsky's novel's are some of the best pieces of art humanity has ever created and my love for his works has no end. There is enough food for thought in his works for days and months and every time I come back to them over the years, I find something new. I'll leave you in the hands of professionals now “Stop! Not another step!” he cried, seizing him by the arm. Stavrogin tried to pull away his arm, but did not succeed. He was overcome with fury. Seizing Verhovensky by the hair with his left hand he flung him with all his might on the ground and went out at the gate. But he had not gone thirty paces before Verhovensky overtook him again. “Let us make it up; let us make it up!” he murmured in a spasmodic whisper. Stavrogin shrugged his shoulders, but neither answered nor turned round. “Listen. I will bring you Lizaveta Nikolaevna to-morrow; shall I? No? Why don’t you answer? Tell me what you want. I’ll do it. Listen. I’ll let you have Shatov. Shall I?” Skipped to avoid spoilers “What do you want with Shatov? What is he to you?” Pyotr Stepanovitch went on, gasping, speaking rapidly. He was in a frenzy, and kept running forward and seizing Stavrogin by the elbow, probably unaware of what he was doing. “Listen. I’ll let you have him. Let’s make it up. Your price is a very great one, but … Let’s make it up!” Stavrogin glanced at him at last, and was amazed. The eyes, the voice, were not the same as always, or as they had been in the room just now. What he saw was almost another face. The intonation of the voice was different. Verhovensky besought, implored. He was a man from whom what was most precious was being taken or had been taken, and who was still stunned by the shock. “But what’s the matter with you?” cried Stavrogin. The other did not answer, but ran after him and gazed at him with the same imploring but yet inflexible expression. “Let’s make it up!” he whispered once more. “Listen. Like Fedka, I have a knife in my boot, but I’ll make it up with you!” “But what do you want with me, damn you?” Stavrogin cried, with intense anger and amazement. “Is there some mystery about it? Am I a sort of talisman for you?” “Listen. We are going to make a revolution,” the other muttered rapidly, and almost in delirium. “You don’t believe we shall make a revolution? We are going to make such an upheaval that everything will be uprooted from its foundation. Karmazinov is right that there is nothing to lay hold of. Karmazinov is very intelligent. Another ten such groups in different parts of Russia-and I am safe.” ... “Take Shigalov, and let me alone.…” “Shigalov is a man of genius! Do you know he is a genius like Fourier, but bolder than Fourier; stronger. I’ll look after him. He’s discovered ‘equality’!” “He is in a fever; he is raving; something very queer has happened to him,” thought Stavrogin, looking at him once more. Both walked on without stopping. “He’s written a good thing in that manuscript,” Verhovensky went on. “He suggests a system of spying. Every member of the society spies on the others, and it’s his duty to inform against them. Every one belongs to all and all to every one. All are slaves and equal in their slavery. In extreme cases he advocates slander and murder, but the great thing about it is equality. To begin with, the level of education, science, and talents is lowered. A high level of education and science is only possible for great intellects, and they are not wanted. The great intellects have always seized the power and been despots. Great intellects cannot help being despots and they’ve always done more harm than good. They will be banished or put to death. Cicero will have his tongue cut out, Copernicus will have his eyes put out, Shakespeare will be stoned-that’s Shigalovism. Slaves are bound to be equal. There has never been either freedom or equality without despotism, but in the herd there is bound to be equality, and that’s Shigalovism! Ha ha ha! Do you think it strange? I am for Shigalovism.” Stavrogin tried to quicken his pace, and to reach home as soon as possible. “If this fellow is drunk, where did he manage to get drunk?” crossed his mind. “Can it be the brandy?” “Listen, Stavrogin. To level the mountains is a fine idea, not an absurd one. I am for Shigalov. Down with culture. We’ve had enough science! Without science we have material enough to go on for a thousand years, but one must have discipline. The one thing wanting in the world is discipline. The thirst for culture is an aristocratic thirst. The moment you have family ties or love you get the desire for property. We will destroy that desire; we’ll make use of drunkenness, slander, spying; we’ll make use of incredible corruption; we’ll stifle every genius in its infancy. We’ll reduce all to a common denominator! Complete equality! ‘We’ve learned a trade, and we are honest men; we need nothing more,’ that was an answer given by English working-men recently. Only the necessary is necessary, that’s the motto of the whole world henceforward. But it needs a shock. That’s for us, the directors, to look after. Slaves must have directors. Absolute submission, absolute loss of individuality, but once in thirty years Shigalov would let them have a shock and they would all suddenly begin eating one another up, to a certain point, simply as a precaution against boredom. Boredom is an aristocratic sensation. The Shigalovians will have no desires. Desire and suffering are our lot, but Shigalovism is for the slaves.” ...
“Perhaps I am raving; perhaps I am raving,” Pyotr Stepanovitch assented, speaking rapidly. “But I’ve thought of the first step! Shigalov would never have thought of it. There are lots of Shigalovs, but only one man, one man in Russia has hit on the first step and knows how to take it. And I am that man! Why do you look at me? I need you, you; without you I am nothing. Without you I am a fly, a bottled idea; Columbus without America.” Stavrogin stood still and looked intently into his wild eyes. “Listen. First of all we’ll make an upheaval,” Verhovensky went on in desperate haste, continually clutching at Stavrogin’s left sleeve. “I’ve already told you. We shall penetrate to the peasantry. Do you know that we are tremendously powerful already? Our party does not consist only of those who commit murder and arson, fire off pistols in the traditional fashion, or bite colonels. They are only a hindrance. I don’t accept anything without discipline. I am a scoundrel, of course, and not a socialist. Ha ha! Listen. I’ve reckoned them all up: a teacher who laughs with children at their God and at their cradle is on our side. The lawyer who defends an educated murderer because he is more cultured than his victims and could not help murdering them to get money is one of us. The schoolboys who murder a peasant for the sake of sensation are ours. The juries who acquit every criminal are ours. The prosecutor who trembles at a trial for fear he should not seem advanced enough is ours, ours. Among officials and literary men we have lots, lots, and they don’t know it themselves. On the other hand, the docility of schoolboys and fools has reached an extreme pitch; the schoolmasters are bitter and bilious. On all sides we see vanity puffed up out of all proportion; brutal, monstrous appetites.… Do you know how many we shall catch by little, ready-made ideas? When I left Russia, Littre’s dictum that crime is insanity was all the rage; I come back and I find that crime is no longer insanity, but simply common sense, almost a duty; anyway, a gallant protest. ‘How can we expect a cultured man not to commit a murder, if he is in need of money.’ But these are only the first fruits. The Russian God has already been vanquished by cheap vodka. The peasants are drunk, the mothers are drunk, the children are drunk, the churches are empty, and in the peasant courts one hears, ‘Two hundred lashes or stand us a bucket of vodka.’ Oh, this generation has only to grow up. It’s only a pity we can’t afford to wait, or we might have let them get a bit more tipsy! Ah, what a pity there’s no proletariat! But there will be, there will be; we are going that way.…” “It’s a pity, too, that we’ve grown greater fools,” muttered Stavrogin, moving forward as before. “Listen. I’ve seen a child of six years old leading home his drunken mother, whilst she swore at him with foul words. Do you suppose I am glad of that? When it’s in our hands, maybe we’ll mend things … if need be, we’ll drive them for forty years into the wilderness.… But one or two generations of vice are essential now; monstrous, abject vice by which a man is transformed into a loathsome, cruel, egoistic reptile. That’s what we need! And what’s more, a little ‘fresh blood’ that we may get accustomed to it. Why are you laughing? I am not contradicting myself. I am only contradicting the philanthropists and Shigalovism, not myself! I am a scoundrel, not a socialist. Ha ha ha! I’m only sorry there’s no time. I promised Karmazinov to begin in May, and to make an end by October. Is that too soon? Ha ha! Do you know what, Stavrogin? Though the Russian people use foul language, there’s nothing cynical about them so far. Do you know the serfs had more self-respect than Karmazinov? Though they were beaten they always preserved their gods, which is more than Karmazinov’s done.” “Well, Verhovensky, this is the first time I’ve heard you talk, and I listen with amazement,” observed Stavrogin. “So you are really not a socialist, then, but some sort of … ambitious politician?” “A scoundrel, a scoundrel! You are wondering what I am. I’ll tell you what I am directly, that’s what I am leading up to. It was not for nothing that I kissed your hand. But the people must believe that we know what we are after, while the other side do nothing but ‘brandish their cudgels and beat their own followers.’ Ah, if we only had more time! That’s the only trouble, we have no time. We will proclaim destruction.… Why is it, why is it that idea has such a fascination. But we must have a little exercise; we must. We’ll set fires going.… We’ll set legends going. Every scurvy ‘group’ will be of use. Out of those very groups I’ll pick you out fellows so keen they’ll not shrink from shooting, and be grateful for the honour of a job, too. Well, and there will be an upheaval! There’s going to be such an upset as the world has never seen before.… Russia will be overwhelmed with darkness, the earth will weep for its old gods.… Well, then we shall bring forward … whom?” “Whom?” “Ivan the Tsarevitch.” “Who-m?” “Ivan the Tsarevitch. You! You!”
My initial reaction was to criticise you for being too specific when interpreting the frenzied flame. However, after some reflection you should be commended for the 'out-the-box' interpretation. I personally, feel the game has 3 interwoven artistic visions...Miyasaki, GRRM and Miura. Miyasaki (From) philosophy is painted across the world. Their usual themes of cycles, birth and rebirth, dark and light. These yin and yang forces are evident in the game play. This is paintbrushed across the world as nature (demigods) are still locked in this cold war. GRRM vision is imbedded in the architecture of the world, the castles, the furnishings, the halls and ornaments. You see these mirrors of kingdoms and fiefdoms. Where you witness aspects of these noble houses and their grandeur but then more insidious secrets. The toll these noble houses take is underwritten by pain, sacrifice and suffering on the land and inhabitants. Finally, Miura looms large over this world. I don't think From intended the game to reflect Muira's Berserk but it feels like that DNA has somehow seeped into this game. Somehow causality and regression transcends time and space. Thank you. Sorry to leave a random comment like this.
"Children are suffering, so let's burn them all, I guess." - The problem with using this passage in support of the Flame is that it speaks about the children, even presumes to speak for them, but it does not let them speak. Why did the boy still try to run from the dogs instead of just calmly accepting his fate and trying to get himself killed quickly? Would the girl in her dark, cold chamber really choose death over life? Children do not think that way. Even in the most horrible of circumstances, you will find that children show a will to live. What right do we have to make that decision for them?
Well put. I don't know about this, but would you consider the whole philosophy revolving around Flame of Frenzy and this literature as a form of nihilism?
That's not children you're talking about really, it's life. Life always tries to preserve itself to the end. But this is fantasy we're talking about, a game. And the question at the end of the game is precisely what would you do if given the chance to start over. You're making this decision either way.
The boy was driven only by instinct, and the same was true of the parents who brought him into the world. There is nothing deep or spiritual about it, it is just evolutionary pragmatic behavior. Suffering and the will to survive are the stick and the carrot with which nature leads us to survive and reproduce, without any reason, plan, or reward for us at the end. Our consciousness is also a product of evolution, it helped us survive and conquer the whole world, but we all have to chain it with lies and distractions for our own safety. We are hostages in Hell, everything suffers, dies and is reborn to suffer again. Survival is synonymous with the Stockholm syndrome, and freedom with childless death.
@@ryanli8371 Well, my point is heavily influenced by Nietzsche's argument against Schopenhauer's pessimism, and Nietzsche sure did think of this kind of pessimism as "nihilistic". The question is a bit difficult to answer though, because the term "nihilism" actually isn't that clearly defined (many people seem to think of Nietzsche as nihilistic too for some reason).
I was listening to this in my car. I had to pull over and turn my car off just to make sure I heard everything, and i just sat there on the side of the road until the video was over. Amazing video
This video alone is what inspired me to read The Brothers Karamazov. As such, having entered the profundity of Dostoyevsky’s thoughts, I’m grateful to you for creating it. Truly, there can be no suffering, no despair in the absence of life entirely. An ode to the utter blissfulness of nothingness at all.
Watching and listening to this video gave me what I think is a good conclusion about the flame of frenzy. So the flame of frenzy started with the three fingers right? I'm beginning to imagine that the three fingers and the flame of frenzy have this philosophy of life being an issue because the three fingers themselves were born flawed. The Three Fingers wasn't born into a life of luxury like the two fingers were, since they're basically Jehovah's witnesses for the greater will, because it was born with this maddening flame that scorches it which I imagine is incredibly painful for a being like that, the way it writhes and wriggles in it's cutscene kinda gives off the impression that it's still in a lot of pain. The Three Fingers for this reason is against everything that has to do with life in the lands between, because it was born in a way that only allowed it to suffer because what's the point of enjoying life if you were born to suffer, regardless if it were anyone's fault?
@@Alex_Dul yeah exactly, inheriting it is essential having that pain be passed from it's original holder to you because no sane person would want to willingly have most of their body charred. Also makes Miquella's Needle seem like a fine form of antidepressant
I really don't think the 3fingers being envious of the 2fingers is something they were going for. I know a lot of anarchists and such hold on to their ideas out of envy but it reads as too simplistic to me.
@@807D14M0ND5 I'm wasn't saying it's envious of the two fingers, i was just drawing the connection that because they're fingers they were probably made by the same thing for the same purpose and the three fingers is the way it is just by sheer circumstance
@@807D14M0ND5 Yes, that's "normie" anarchy, realer anarchy would be closer to Ranni. Since anarchy is only a means to an end not an absolute because once you're gone order will come anyway. The Frenzied Flame is closer to an also normie ideal on Nihliism as well as Anarchism. Burn it all, so all can be one, since I hurt, I must be hurt. Which is kinda ironic and also why it's a great ending path. For one it shows player agency you "linked the fire" and burned the world anew. The reason why it's ironic because to finish the game "normally" means you carved a path through countless foes, you hurt many others especially if you pvp. Which makes the frenzied flame have no deep meaning after all. It's simply fire as fire burns
It's a very interesting take, this desire to return to entropy. I also think the parallel between the in game comment about births still happening and life still having beauty and meaning despite the suffering is also implied as the illusion of hope. The ones consumed by the Frenzied Flame harbor no hope, because they see all of suffering all at once, and yearn for its end. There is a TedEx talk from 2013 by Andrew Solomon in which he states: "You don't think in depression that you've put on a gray veil and are seeing the world through the haze of a bad mood. You think that the veil has been taken away, the veil of happiness, and that now you're seeing truly." In many works of art, most famously in pop culture the work of Lovecraft, which clearly influenced a lot of what souls games are today, knowing the truth about the world and the universe, connecting too much of the information together, leads to madness and despair. And now, drawing a line through all the statements above, I think it's interesting and perhaps worrying, that today, when we as a species have access to so much information, and we see all the atrocities and the suffering and the meaninglessness of so much of our existence and our struggles, and the absurdity of life itself, that antinatalism has begun to gather momentum as a philosophy and as a way of life. People may not have the will or the programming to end their own lives, but more and more, people are simply refusing to bring more life into the world. Because the world, more and more, is beyond redemption.
Well children also don't die nearly as often as they once did, and are no longer needed to work in the fields of developed countries. That has much more to do with declining birth rates than any even subconscious antinatalist sentiment.
While I agree, I believe that anti-natalism is largely a (western) male phenomena and the male will is a fickle thing easily influenced by the persuasion of woman. The persuasion of woman is still largely maternal, and since their will is anything but fickle many of us will rear young despite stating at an earlier point that we wish not to do so. I claim to not want children but I know wifey will convince me otherwise and I know I will love them dearly and try to create the best world I can for them. All the while knowing that the world is a cold and ruthless place in which my contributions are meaningless.
@@sydposting I can only speak for myself but the only times I feel any paternal instinct is when my partner talks about having kids or when she points out a cute kid somewhere. I don't sit around dreaming about kids but she does sometimes. We have an inside joke where "I hate kids and don't want them" which is only a slight exaggeration. But we both sort of know that we'll have kids at some point and that it's only my nihilism that stops me from wanting kids. So she motivates me and talks about how great we would be as parents, that we will raise our kids differently and so on. It's a long story but I wouldn't have any urge to have kids if she didn't highlight the positive aspects of it. As for my (male) friends, half of them only had kids after their partner convinced them. So in my anecdotal experience the woman is the main driver behind wanting to start a family. It's also an old trope in movies for a reason.
I say this experiment really payed off for me. As a generally optimistic person I generally understood the premise of the Frenzied Flame, but this really adds depth and clarity as to why someone would seek this path in the context of the game.
I took the Frenzied Flame ending before I even knew fully what it meant for the world. I never even met Shabriri, at the ruins. I had already committed to the path because I had played the previous soulsborne games and knew what it meant before I had even understood it. I could see that it was an unmaking of "the natural order", the natural order of a dying world where corpses walked and people were grafted and made to live with disease and horror unending. you get no such complete sundering of the cycle in the prior games, but in this one there was that finality, that frenzying drive for oblivion through the ameliorating conflagration. I think I may have understood it so well because I struggle with my own mental illness, that at times drives me to take up suicidal ideation as easily as I can argue against it. I will never be "cured", but I will continue to live because neither option, oblivion or strife, is a better option than the other. In the real world things are too complex to be decided on with finality in such a way. But in Elden Ring, things are much simpler.
I really love how you did this, and not only does it perfectly illustrate the Frenzied Flame, but it actively entwines the artistry of Elden Ring with the artistry of respected literature. Much talk is made of video games as art, which they are, but not enough is made of their analysis and synthesis as pieces of art. By analyzing the Frenzied Flame not in terms of lore and raw game facts, but rather in terms of its place in the thematic, artistic, and literary canon, you are doing a great service that not enough people do for games. It's important, and noble even, to do with Elden Ring what is so often done with non-game art, and use comparative analysis to get further at it.
This was a very thought provoking video. I hope others get what your going for with this. It did get really morbid at times though, kids suffering really gets to me even if its just hypothetical.
And keep in mind they were just a few, select examples. Now just try to imagine for a moment the amount of suffering perpetrated all over the world since time immemorial. Ivan could have continued on for a thousand, thousand years and there still would be no end to it. Let's be thankful that we can't, in fact, possibly imagine it. Ignorance truly is bliss.
They ain’t hypothetical, lol. In fact, worse shit is happening as we speak. You think Epstein’s little band was all there was to it? That’s just the tip of the underwater fucking mountain.
Ratatoskr taking the lore conversation beyond what others would imagine, yet again. I don't like Elden Ring. After being philosophically and personally changed by Dark Souls 1 & 2, I don't like Elden Ring one bit. And the reason is entirely metaphysical. Imperfection can only exist if real perfection exists to compare it with. But the only measure of perfection we have is the world itself; it is all that is, in a practical sense, and therefore its incompleteness can be its only rule or canon of completeness. The ever-flowing river of life, time, belief, action, etc., is the only perfection we know. All perfection beyond this life is a wish, yearning for an excuse man can give to himself for his unhappiness. This is the flaw of theists and atheistic moralists alike. Ivan is a repulsive character to me not for his atheism, but for his irrational moralism despite his atheism. The supposed imperfection of the world that leads him to reject God is in fact a human realisation of the morality that comes from belief in God. He condemns with the words of the Condemned. You can only be appalled by God's lack of goodness if your standard is goodness of, and from, a good God. How can a man judge the Judge? How can an inquisitor question the originator of all questions and answers? Dark Souls posits two possible imperfections: the Lord of Light or the Dark Lord. Both are visions of the future, that can resolve for one cycle the yearning of humanity. It accepts the impermanence and purifying flow of life. There can be nothing beyond the scope of Light or the reach of Dark. We accept it, as eternal cycle of ever-purifying life, if we are sensible. The flaw with Elden Ring is that its world never sufficiently establishes a perfection of choice in the imperfection of lore, in the Lands Between or beyond it, only petty politics -- between outer gods, demigods, humans. Cosmic fate and tremendous choice, as in Dark Souls, does not exist here. Light or Dark. Flame or Abyss. True Monarch or Pawn of Fate. No, in Elden Ring births are said to continue, but they clearly do not in the Lands Between, as nobody has any libido left. Yet elsewhere most places seem to be flourishing as Tarnished nations, with real births continuing, virtually unaffected by the pain and torment in the Lands Between. So what's the actual state of the WHOLE world? This lack of universal metaphysical danger, the inconsistency of the cosmos, the drama localised only in Marika's lands -- it all renders the game devoid of substantial personal & philosophical stakes compared to Dark Souls. Before your video, I was inclined to take the Dungeater's ending out of sheer spite for all the boring characters and faceless events of this game. Now, thanks to you, I know that I must take his ending. To rebuke the plague that is Elden Ring's stories, each nowhere near as compelling as the desperation of choices made by gods and humanity when facing the fading of the First Flame. It's all just Ivans all the way down, isn't it? Thanks for the thought provoking video, as always.
LOL you gotta burn the game after you choose that ending. then you literaly burn the lands between. I preferred the unending cycle that was going on in Dark Souls. There is no ending that feels satisfying to me in Elden Ring. Except the Elden Lord one, but just because I want to see my character in power, and because of the cool name of the title(The Elden Lord).
@@mariuzmadden8552 True, but it's more shitty to keep 'em suffering from the blessing of curses forever, rather than just blow up the world and end it all. Indeed, as with most of the NPC stories and voice acting, none of the endings really interest me. I'll never forget how moved I was seeing the Chosen Undead consumed by the flame at the end of DS1. It was a relief, a release, a tragedy, horrific, beautiful. ER's endings give me none of that.
This was… intense and amazing. Your voice over was done with such intensity and meaning it was wonderful. I love how little you chose to talk on the frenzy flame itself, but instead let us sit with the feeling of what it MEANS. Thank you. This was incredible.
I like to imagine the Frenzied Flame is actually DarkSoul's First Flame. It gained so much power after generations of people burning their souls into it that it *became* an outer god
It's an interesting theory, however at the end of ds3, and despite all the people who sacrificied themselves to the fire, its barely anymore than a flicker one of themes of dark souls was that, no matter how powerfull, nothing was eternal and everything had to come to an end To me the first flamme has been snuffed for good, never to be lit again and the flamme of frenzy is the result of something entierly different. Beside the idea behind the two flamme is fundamentally different, the first flamme was a fire of creation and disparity, the flamme of frenzy is absolute destruction and grey
I'm not sure the two flames correlate, as the First Flame brought disparity, while the Flame of Frenzy wants to erase distinction until all becomes one
@@dandelyon2796 Dark Soul's endings were also very nihilistic and... almost seemingly worthless in the end, where as Elden Ring's endings give off the feeling that change is inevitable, no matter what it is and how it comes to be. Even with the game's base ending there's change.
Love it. Yet another example of Dostoevsky steel-manning an opposing argument so well that it becomes incredibly difficult to dispute. I really like how you’re bringing real world philosophy into this! However, only partly because Melina is Elden Ring’s waifu, I’ll have to take her side on this one. Thanks for the great content!
I like how you connected this ideology from in game to something tangible in real life. It would have been cool if you mentioned anti-natalists cause it's such an interesting thing and anti-natalism is basically one on one with what you discussed
I agree. Especially as an antinatalist. I haven't finished Elden Ring, and didn't know what the Flame of Frenzy was outside of an annoying status effect. Now that I understand, I have a deep sympathy with the adherents.
@@Noname72105 You really shouldn't, though. Anti-natalist or not, sympathizing with the forceful implementation of that through the destruction of the world is not a good trait. Those who follow the frenzied flame in-game do not do that out of moral righteousness, they clearly do that out of pure insanity for something terrible that happened to them. Similar for the Dung Eater. You can understand where they are coming from, but not excuse their actions.
@@apolloniuspergus9295 Some of them do. Some of them clearly have thought it through and arrived at a conclusion that I wholeheartedly agree with: Better for nothing to be than anyone to suffer.
@@Noname72105 If you really think that killing everyone is a good or sympathizable ending, I can't convince you of otherwise. You've been inflicted with madness in real life. Just be aware that people who think they can solve problems through destruction is part of the reason why suffering exists.
Being antinatalist, myself, I could chose no other ending other than becoming the lord of frenzied flame. My outlook on the game's world, and more generally life as a whole was represented quite well in this video. I love that Fromsoft puts multiple endings into their games that allow the player to radically change the world in ways that could be seen as bittersweet depending on how you look at it.
I’ve rewatched this video like once a month ever since I got the frenzied flame ending. I like to imagine that the conversation between Ivan and Alyosha as the conversation between the tarnished and Melina at the grace right before the three fingers when Melina tries to convince the tarnished to turn back.
I always thought of the frenzy flame ending to be reverting to before the "big bang" or Aion, or the Japanese creation myth that literally states, "Before the heavens and earth, all was chaos, limitless, without shape or form". I love mythology so I think it's really cool when games create their own mythologies in their world building like Elden ring and FF; it's peek creativity in my opinion. The concept of people worshiping the destruction of all concepts is so interesting; so while it's considered the bad ending, it's probably my favorite.
This story kind of reminds me of dung eaters questline, torturing people beyond the point of death and infecting their corpses to a point their soul is cursed forcing them to be reincarnated as an omen, forcing all men for the rest of time to atone for the torture of the omen in the sewers of the capital.
They're kind of bizarro mirror reflections of each other. The Frenzied Flame wants it all to end because life is suffering. Dung Eater wants it all to *keep going* because life is suffering, and you can add to the sum total of that suffering.
@@MidlifeCrisisJoe Hey its me again ;). Could this be a reflection of our real world concepts of Nihilism(belief there is no meaning in life) and Absurdism(trying to make our own meaning within life meaninglessness)?
@@ATC43 I have no idea who you are? Sorry. The Frenzied Flame is definitely a reflection in a particular kind of animating nihilism, yes. Though nullificationism is probably a more accurate term, because it's not really positing that life has no meaning, but that whatever meaning to life there is isn't worth the cost of living. I'm genuinely not sure if there's a more specific name for this viewpoint but it would be what most people recognize as nihilism even if I know some philosophy teachers who would disagree with that classification. But Dung Eater's isn't directly absurdist unless you're getting meta-textual. It's more directly sadistic. But from a metatextual standpoint it's absolutely absurdist since yes it's about creating a kind of negative meaning, but it's also absurd in a direct sense that such a thing came from a character called "The Loathsome Dung Eater."
@@MidlifeCrisisJoe I'm sad I did not leave an impression lol. Anyway, yea I was struggling to think of a term to describe the concept as well which is why I settled on Nihilism. And I agree, sadistically absurd would be a good descriptor for Dung Eater's
i congratulate you on your video idea and i commend you on the execution of it. you posses a very agreeable reading voice. in attack on titan, two characters discuss the same topic, albeit in a much more superfluous way. it's basically a re-iteration of ivan's viewpoint except almost from the opposite perspective and obviously detached from the monotheistic dogma (especially the prize-reward relation nature of innocent suffering and eternal harmony).
I really love the scene at the end of season 3 where they look out over the water, and Erin looks back with those horrified eyes. “And once we kill all our enemies over there, then will we be free?” It’s the same idea, the human condition at it’s core is suffering. That cannot be escaped.
Kinda reminds me of The Cabin in the Woods (ENDING SPOILERS FOR THAT MOVIE) When the two survivors decide to not complete the ritual and let the old gods destroy the world and start over. They basically decide “if you gotta keep sacrificing people to prevent the end of the world, then it’s better to just let it end.”
My heart has grown so tired of the world. It does not seek growth, it's stagnant. We sit adrift in a sea of wonder and stars. Yet we fight for sandcastles ruled by aged children. We create problems where there are none to explain why we can't go out into the vastness. We are cowards hiding in our vices, perhaps it's best we dissappear. And yet I cannot extinguish that faint glow of hope. It flickers still, and so I march on. Hoping it may once again ignite within me.
expected a counter point, and then it just ended. kinda nice either way i liked the storytelling. though i still find it interesting that in the frenzied flame ending not all is lost as Melina is still there and somehow able to forever chase us with destined death. technically only way to keep Melina interested and simping after you instead. ;-)
@@penguinwolf3330 The point was not to argue for or against the adherents of the Frenzied Flame. Ultimately, whether you believe that life is worth the suffering is an argument of ethics, morality, and aesthetics, outside the realm where logical arguments and rebuttals can sway people with any consistency. The point of reading the passage was for the audience to understand *why* the adherents believe as they do. Why those who think that way in our world think as they do. Convincing you one way or another was never the point, it would be a moot one. You have to experience the thought process yourself, and let your mind arrive at its own conclusions. That's what the passage was for.
Seeing the palestine genocide happening, make me feel hopeless, the world feel so bleak, but this video always comfort me idk why, this video make me want to keep on fighting
I don’t think that here Ivan and the Frenzied Flame are articulating the exactly same position. Ivan rejects the idea that harmony can redeem the suffering of the world but this is what the frenzied flame ultimately wants, for everything to return to the harmony of the One. For Ivan there is an irremediable disharmony between disharmony and harmony, or, in the terms of the Frenzied Flame, a division between division and unity. The idea that it could be “made whole” is an affront to his sense of justice. The “whole” cannot make up for the singular fact of the suffering of the innocent.
Look up philosophical pessimism, efilism, antinatalism, negative utilitarianism. The notion that life is a not a good thing and thus its extinction a desirable goal is a thoroughly reasoned philosophical stance that has existed at least as long as recorded history. This observation is at the core of many religions and the reason they exist is to provide relief from it, first by acknowledging your suffering and then by selling you promises of justice and of continued life after death, preferrably in an idilic state of absolute and everlasting bliss (permanent homeostasis) such as heaven. We are animals with a deep seated fear of death, so we cling to life despite the fact that it is irrational as life is pointless, full of suffering and irreparable, the highs a farce compared to the lows, evolution is quite literally a meat grinder with no goal, survival just for survival's sake. We are decaying, fragile sacks of flesh thrown into uncaring cosmic brutality. "Life is an unprofitable episode disturbing the blessed calm of non-existence." We so desperately and compulsively try to escape our programmed demise that we divorce from reality into all kinds of psychoses like religion and optimism. All we do our entire lives is to deny reality by substituting it with stories that promise us physical or symbolical transcendence of death or keeping ourselves busy or sedated. Playing video games for example. Also look up Terror Management Theory (TMT) and Mind Over Reality Transition (MORT). This is the real Pandora's Box, the collectively supressed and repressed truth of our existence, the wisdom of Silenus. Few intellectuals have ever had the balls to truthfully tackle reality since it is nigh unbearable and taboo, tell the apes they're gonna be unavoidably and permanently annihilated, that their nasty, brutish and short existence has been for nothing and they won't take it too well, you are assaulting all of their psychological defenses head on and bringing them to the edge of the abyss, dispelling the inane fantasies which in many cases is all they have to treat their hopeless existential condition. Great to see this theme in a game of such high profile, "to be or not to be" is really the question and we really don't like the reasoned answer, eating life's dung is easier if we pretend it's chocolate and a great destiny awaits us if we just never give up, which is a monumentally insane belief. The people that want to end this crap are the cognitively healthy and it is the ones that want to propagate this factually wasteful and pointless phenomenon of life that are either ignorant or insane. Life cannot be affirmed if all is taken into account, it's utterly condemnable. But this realization creates distress, makes it harder to go on, so we "focus on the positive" which many times we manufacture ourselves (fantasies) because there is not that much to be had, shunning people, such as philosophers, that don't want to play this dissociation game. And so life keeps propagating itself in a blazing trail of suffering only to arrive nowhere and eventually go extinct when the cosmic structure upholding it will break down. Why beat around the bush, to allow countless more to be crushed in this tragic machine?
While it's important to recognize the fallen nature of the reality we inhabit, never let your intellectual pursuits kill your soul. True good exists in this reality, and so does redemption and salvation.
Did you see? What they did to my ancestors? The whole clan, buried alive, Sick, Maddened, Husks of themselves. Have you heard their moans? They're hardly human anymore! They think we worship the Three Fingers? That we called the maddening sickness down upon them? Well... If that's what they expect from us, then that's what they shall get from us!! The world of grace and its people should have been content to see us sink between the cracks! But to have intruded upon our solace... Having broken us upon their whims... I'll never forgive any of you. That burn... Your eyes...You've inherited the flame of frenzy Oh, that's it... That's what I need...To melt away the curses, suffering, and despair. And the Order, entire. The yellow flame of chaos... O Three Fingers, throw wide the door. Please, bestow unto me the yellow flame of chaos. A frenzied flame to melt away the all. Divest yourself of everything... And pray to the Lord... To melt away the curses, suffering, and despair. May chaos...take the world. Cut content from the merchant Kale.
I watched your video for the second time, and it brought me to tears once again. I read The Brothers Karamazov a few years ago, delightfully difficult experience to read through, I did not expect such a bittersweet surprise. This is one outstanding video essay. My best regards.
The philosophy of the frenzy flame is surprisingly… understandable and I don’t know how to feel about that. I would also like to say that the reading did pull me in and… enlighten me.
"Surely you have seen for yourself… the pain and suffering that fills this world! But fight poison with poison. God is merciful, and so, created the Old One. The Old One will feed upon our souls, and put an end to our tragic realm of existence!" "You fool. Don't you understand? No one wishes to go on…" They certainly have a way of expressing the viewpoint in a very kind and caring way despite the grim reality of unmaking the world. It was actually only recently I've started to see a through-line in the series' that seems hopeful as if the beautiful moments are what make it worth it. The mystery, the beauty. We may be destructive, but we are a vast expanse more creative. Just look at this amazing video taken from just two works of art. 💜
Hard take, frenzied flame ending is the beginning of dark souls…the fog ending is the beginning of demon souls and the ranni ending upon the stars in the beginning of bloodbourne
Mission accomplished. At the end of the vid I didn’t just feel the flame of frenzy, I believed in it. Also many thanks for exposing me to the brothers Karamazov. Sounds like a great read
Absolutely loved this and would love just a deep dive on the other endings and their ideologies. But if this is the only deep dive into the gods = ideologies, it would have been worth it. Great video!
If you were at all intrigued by the writting, please do yourself the favor of reading The Brothers K. It is one of the greatest novels, you will not regret the effort. Personally, I like Crime and Phnishment better, by the same author, and it’s an easier read, but Brothers K is maybe the most influential
Ahh Crime and Punishment. What a brutal book. That book alone, if understood, will scare you straight. Lol. The punishment always follows, even if it's your own conscience doing the punishment. Porfirio Petrovich is such a relentless pursuer lol
This is why Yura (Shabriri's vessel) offered us, and most certainly Vyke as well, the option to use the flame of frenzy to burn the Erdtree in lieu of our pseudo-maiden Melina. Why force another to suffer when it could be avoided?
There's a lot of similarities between the Flame of Frenzy and what Neon Genesis Evangelion calls "Instrumentality", tho in that instance we're not necessarily talking about ending life just ending the concept of "living". Much like in Elden Ring, Instrumentality is described as returning all living being to one unified state. To break down the barriers, the ego, that separates and therefore inherently alienates each individual. To create a state of perfect empathy and understanding since the very concept of "you" wouldn't exist, "No more fractures. No more births". Given how influential NGE has been on all of japanese media i wouldn't be surprised if Instrumentality plays at least a small part in the inception of the Flame of Frenzy.
"You fool, don't you understand? No one wishes to go on."
Mood
When Shibiri said" Burn the Erdtree to the Ground . So Chaos Would Arise." I never felt so connected to a character. as a metal head and a deep thinker this is my calling
Same applies to our world
@@guillermolopez1377 The entire Flame of Frenzy questline, and especially Shabriri remind me of Lateralus by Tool. Things like embracing chaos and burning things down to become one is parallel to embracing the random and riding the spiral. Something a lot of Tarnished must feel is very comforting since their guidance and grace has been taken away from them, and feel their order in life has been lost. More so that even. Their order in life dictated that they must be lost, and they're probably are willing to cling to any little order or guidance that calls to them.
Hang in there bro.
100 percent intellectually understood the flame of frenzy, now I have FELT it. Truly exceptional take on this lore, I know it was a risk but I greatly enjoyed that dip into despair to really grasp the philosophy at my core. Bravo.
_"Burn the Erdtree..._
_To the ground..._
_And incinerate all that divides and distinguishes!_
_Aaahhhh...May chaos take the world!_
*MAY. CHAOS. TAKE. THE WORLD!!!!!"*
It's like listening to psychotic tangential speech.
@@jamesbolt1003 He sounds pretty black pilled lol
What if you 100% intellectually agreed with it? Also it's the cool Tool Ending^^
Fake-deep.
I know this video is weird. But I hope some of you got what I was going for.
I've been checking your channel for the new vid several times a day hahaha. I'm excited to see how this one goes!
I'm always ready to get weird! Bring it on
Miyazaki is weird. I would think that the best way to understand is just like this!
I liked it. This was great!
Not what I was expecting at all. Heavy stuff. I definitely resonate with Ivan.
What a fantastic name for a lore channel! For those of you who don’t know Ratatoskr carries information to and from the gods up and down Yggdrasil (the world tree that holds up all the worlds in Norse lore)
And Urd is one of the Norns that sits under Yggdrasil. Urd Tree. Erdtree? Tree of Fate? Actually it would be Tree of Past as Urd represents the past.
@@radagast7200 I'm surprised that some people are still clicking on the fact Elden Ring has a lot of Norse influence. We've got a giant World Tree, Gods battling each other as the end of the world approaches, the mortal ream at the mid of the tree, the dead at the roots of the tree (Hel), multiple layers of reality/realms, a _literal_ valkyrie who'll kick your ass seven ways 'till Sunday... And that's not even going into the fact the Elden Ring itself resembles the Triquetra or Radagon's cross hatch symbol is basically just the Web of Wyrd (ie. The symbol of Fate).
@@conspiracypanda1200 Torrent reminds me of Thor's goat steeds. Also the smith's anvil bears a resemblance to Mjolnir. I thought Rani was supposed to represent Hel though. After all she has a wolf brother who is fated to help slay the God of War. She also seems pretty linked with death and has a splt face kind of. I guess that would make her first victim a sort of Baldur (even though it was loki in the myths) which makes Marikas freak out and attempt to conquer death even more on point. Also, Rani spent alot of time in those underground eternal cities... Helhiem?
@@radagast7200 ranni isn’t really a wolf if anything she’s closer to Loki in nature, related but not, a chosen one but not, a trickster.
@@RomanvonUngernSternbergnrmfvus I didn't say Ranni was a wolf. Her 'brother' Blaidd is is. My implication was that Ranni was suppose to be Hel, whose brothers were Fenrir (a giant wolf who was fated to kill Thor, the God of War), and a giant snake named Jormungandr (destined to kill Odin).
The three were children of Loki, who murdered (sort of) Freya's favorite son, Baldur, leading Freya (Merica in this theory) to become enraged and try to bring him back.
Edit... Loki was responsible for the death of Baldur, not his children. Sorry if that was unclear.
This video is basically elaborated bait to expose unsuspecting viewers to Dostoyevsky's thoughts.
And it's simply genius. I commend you for this format.
Nothing wrong with a well-laid scheme
Man everyone needs to read crime and punishment
Except its not his view, since he was an orthodox christian, but ok.
*unsuspecting learn english
@@squidward8125 learn not to be a cunt
This is such a unique way to present the lore of the frenzied flame
Honestly, this did A LOT in helping me to understand the philosophy behind it all.
I knew the what the text was saying, but i never understood how you could come to those conclusions.
This video helped me understand how someone could see life as a mistake.
Well... the Brothers Karamazov helped, but Squirrelman's page number selection was spot on.
This is pretty much how i felt when i was depressed, i viewed my existance as pure suffering. As such when i came upon the flame of frenzy i immediately knew what it was about
@@youngrich3386 and as such the madness becomes clear.
@Nook Small Art is philosophy for people who don't like to read
@@JustinL614 I take it then literature is not art?
Interesting how in DS it is the flame that leads to disparity and distinction while in ER the frenzied flame leads grey ashen heap without distinction or difference.
Well, that _is_ what fire does; it eventually reduces everything to gray ash.
I was kinda thinking super dense high energy cluster. Everything becomes one.
@@raymondmaglaris4149 NGE instrumentality. All is one, our individuality melted away so none hath suffer alone or because of one another any longer. The boundaries of our souls united under one cosmic force; essentially a soul superfluid plasma. Like the beginning of the universe before there was duality of positive and negative. High energy indeed.
@@raymondmaglaris4149 That would still leave disparity, leaving a singular ‘super dense high energy cluster’. In order for everything to truly become one, to become equal and without disparity or distinction, all must be reduced to nothing and all energy evenly distributed; such that there exists only space with such little energy per femtometer as to be meaningless… Such that energy may as well not exist at all. (Heat Death of The Universe anyone?)
I mean even the DS fire eventually leads to the dark, and then to fire, to dark, to fire, until at the end of time everything is just ash. The Slave Knivht Gael fight takes place in a land where everything is equal, it is on the very edge of reverting back to the land of gray and of dragons. Very much like the frenzied flame
27:34 "Those tears are unatoned for. They must be atoned for." A beautiful line that exemplifies the feeling of righteous fury for those who have suffered
"Never mind, I want to suffer too," muttered Alyosha.
That cut me right to the heart.
Of course it’s Dostoevsky. He’s a legend, I’m glad to listen to your reading. I wonder what other works of his could tie into Elden Ring and other Soulsborn games.
Melina (Flame of Ruin):
"The flames may give us scars, but life is still worth the sacrifice."
Shabriri (Flame of Frenzy):
"No one deserves to suffer. Therefore, everyone must die."
Everyone must die anyway. Why sacrifice yourself to continue the cycle of life, suffering and death when you can stop the madness?
@@neo-memeticbs3798 because most people wish to continue to find beauty, wonder, and happiness in the world.
the duality of man
@@neo-memeticbs3798 Not even to win, just for the love of fighting.
The ironic thing about pure chaos is that it's perfect order. Nothing is different it is all ordered.
I enjoyed the format, but I'd have liked a bit more of a tie-in back to Elden ring at the end. The point got across well, but maybe a reference to some of the suffering in Elden ring itself (e.g. the unjust entombment of tbe nomads that 'ignited the flame' in the lands between) to further synthesise the topic would have been great. That final point would've packed so much more of a whallop if it would be backdropped by that mournsome violin echoing through the mass grave. You got us in the right headspace but I feel like too little was done with it.
This is a criticism born from enjoyment, mind you, it's just that you got me going and then gave me a proper blue-balling when it came to the climactic conclusion is all.
Looking forward to further experiments.
Absolutely approve.
Agreed.
This is the same feeling I had. You can't present a philosophical point and not tie it back to the game, the lore and its people.
It doesn't work for entertainment and it's boring imo. It doesn't do enough to connect the ideologies of both stories in order have people understand "what does this have to do with the world of elden ring?"
That, and I sorta tuned out when I realized the reading was still going. Felt like reading the entire story was necessary.
Agreed I was waiting for more
My favorite part of the Flame of Frenzy is that it had been summoned by all the Merchants. Yes, all of the merchants that you find throughout the game. They were a Great Caravan. However, they were accused of heresy and buried alive under the sewers of Leyndell. They chanted a curse of depair and summon the Flame of Frenzy. You can find all of this information in the Nomadic Merchant's Set. You can also infer this by the fact that the merchants use Frenzied Flame incantations when you attack them and they play the same music as the zombies before the Three Finger's door.
Side Fun Fact, you can free-fall completely safe, top to bottom, after getting bottom bonfire.
That's FromSoft's environmental storytelling for ya. My favorite part was how on the next playthrough I noticed the fingerprints in the middle of the gigantic tombstone at the Morne Moangrave site. And I was like "is this where the fingerprint stone shield came from?"
I was wondering what those bodies were doing there. Actually really cool to know that.
@@RevPerdueJosh yo what that's crazy
In a cut feature, you could give npc’s a drink called dreambrew. It put them to sleep and revealed their darkest secrets. If you gave it to the merchant in the church of elleh, he would speak about the frenzied flames
"They were given paradise, they wanted freedom, and they stole fire from heaven, though they knew that they would become unhappy, so there is no need to pity them."
That is a great line, like a pompous angel trying to justify to themselves what their god had created, and how it had gone wrong
Religion acknowledges the evil of the world. It’s repeatedly called a “Groaning world” in written text. Groaning being like and old house creaking and groaning, a house about to collapse on itself. To reference Tolkien for a moment because he was very religious and incorporated his beliefs into his work “Evil cannot create, it can only corrupt and destroy” this world is a world mired by evil and destined to collapse on itself. Mankind has the freedom to choose and for many that choice is cruelty, hatred and destruction and why shouldn’t they? Evil is a raging fire consuming the good and innocent because innocence rarely retaliates. They take from the good, the hard working and destroy all else they see unfit. Like a fire it will consume its source of life and destroy itself in time. Even the Bible acknowledges it because the End of Days is not by Gods hand, it’s by the hand of the people. Hell will become full with the weight of earths evil and spill back into the Earth. God will rescue the living destined for Heaven and leave the Earth to its evils. They will live hedonistic and unbound lives and to them it would be paradise and as they go to destroy the last church, God comes and destroys all the Universe. Everything brought to Zero. Then he will recreate the Universe and place the innocence that had be so long oppressed by evil onto the new world were evil no longer has a hold.
It’s a story that says Evil exists and the world is plagued by it but this is how it should be because if we were unable to choose the kindness of the world would be worthless. Evil in all it’s cruelty is unsustainable. Kindness and innocence should not be mocked for its peaceful ways even in a cruel world because it is the kindness that’s so rare that will last ages and make life worth it and Eventually evil will burn itself out.
It's more than just one Angel i feel.
It's as if God looked at his Angels and asked them what went wrong?
He gave us free will, to love our neighbors the way we love our families, yet we war. We steal and cheat, and we destroy. Even now, as an Atheist Ivan tells to the Christian Man Alyosha, suffering is a thing in which everything lives through,from a beast of burden to the smallest child, and it is a notion that he finds to be unacceptable. Why must a child suffer for the sins of the father? Why must a man sadistically and elegantly torture his fellow man? He knows this answer, but if he were to acknowledge it, he was lose what makes him, him. He knows the fact, but remains blind to it until the day he can finally accept and understand it.
Man is cruel, and despite our kindhearted nature, we would not hesitate to burn it down. If the world suffers, if the world bleeds, and all of humanity is to suffer for it, then mankind must die. To end the suffering of one, you must end the suffering of all. Let chaos take the world. Ahh... let chaos take the world...
@@nerfer200 I disagree with the conclusion but we understand the reason to the question “why?” it is because man can choose. Freedom of choice means you have the freedom to be wrong, just as you have the choice to be kind you also have the choice to be cruel. It is the small gem of beauty and justice in a coal ridden world of ugliness and cruelty that makes things worth living. Because that gem is precious. In the face of evil those that dare to remain kind are the greatest of us. Evil overtakes good and cruelty is like a fire that spreads and destroys everything including itself. Evil and cruelty are unsustainable in this manner and their will be a time where Evil can no longer burn in the world. It relies on weakness while Good exists in strength. Don’t mock kindness In it’s peaceful ways because in the face of adversity the Kind remain so and give that hope to others. When the fire dies down all that will remain are diamonds. Those specks of kindness are worth nurturing. They are unbreakable, even long after the good die their deeds do not go with them.
@Broomer52 But they do. Every act of kindness is just as easy to suffocate in the smallest flame of cruelty, and as humans, we are hardwired, our minds and bodies able and all too willing to bear the marks and scars of what hurt us while we are made to strive and remember, with a flawed and susceptible brain, to cling to the good we give and receive. Pleasure bears no scars. Kindness can not exist without self conceit. Everything we live for dies, yet our pain and suffering will long outlast us. For every moment of geity at a memorial, countless outcries of greif snd longing echo the graves of the earth.The fact is that the universe, including all of us, has no love, no care, no place for us. Our existence is an anomaly, a speck of mold that has, so far, escaped adrift in the sea of bleach that is the cosmos. And for that exclusion, we pay indefinitely in blood, in suffering, in a perpetual fight with each other, ourselves, our nature, the laws of the universe itself, it's flowing tides of cold indifference that would wash us over in cosmic bleach in an instant, should the nature of it tip the domino appropriately.
To grant a diamond shell to the good, created by the crushing fires of anguish and pain of those outside it is nothing more than upholding the same sacrifice of the many for the good of the few that these philosophies expose as unjust, and unworthy of existence.
I dont say any of this to encourage depression, to rob anyone of a purpose in living, but only to illustrate that life itself bears torment in its very nature, and to deny it, to excuse it, is falling into delusion.
The simple "Never mind, I want to suffer too" from Alyosha hits me deeply, Ivan hadn't explained his point and yet he was beginning to understand, and once you begin to understand you don't wanna stop
This is a great take on the Flame of Frenzy, its not about its ingame lore reasons, its the conception and idea behind it, and i think this is the best take you could have made to have it understandable for everyone who listens.
I'm really glad there's someone doing a more analytical take on the lore. I love the literal analyses and the collection and speculation of story people like Vaati offer, but I'm very happy that now, someone is looking behind the curtain.
Agreed. A lot of lore videos get hung up on interpretive speculation based on what's happening visually on screen and don't focus so much on the author's messages and what those mean. What are the writers of this game trying to say about these characters? Where do those messages come from?
The kind of literary analysis done in this video is just not done often enough.
@@Dr_Mel This, in my opinion, is more important than the literal lore. Fantasy is all about sending real world, philosphical messages through fantastical quests.
@@bludgeon1081 exactly
@@Dr_Mel Thats why one of the best dark souls 3 analysis videos is by Jacob Geller, it almost entirely ignores the very existent story that reinforces his take, but just goes off on the atmosphere, music, design etc and hits the nail on the head what the story is about, because stories are just vessels to vent out real world ideas, problems, thoughts and philosophies.
@@Greysterizationother great ones are DJ peach cobblers videos on fromsoftware
When considering the Brothers Karamozov it is important to remember that Dostoyevsky was a believer/had faith, but he doesn't strawman the opposing view. It is just something to keep in mind.
Which is what also makes crime and punishment also such an amazing book, the different perspectives of what's right or wrong and justice is very thought provoking. The final conclusion of Brothers Karamazov that I got was that religion isn't important on itself, nor for believer or for an atheist. Since the ultimate goal of religion has already taken place in history, to serve as a foundation to bring order and create a moral compass for society.
yes, brothers karamazov is perhaps the greatest illustration in artistic history of the pain and suffering of having actual, genuine faith - which requires looking into the deepest depths of horror and defiantly refusing to blink
Dostoyevsky absolutely steelman's his opposition before deconstructing them. It's honestly impressive.
gotta respect the integrity.
@@Dragonswiftx Like good plot development is built on overcoming pain, and good strategy on the respect of one's enemies; so too is goood debate built on the belief of the integrity and sincerity of the side that one opposes.
For even if they are not rational, there is a fundamental and humanistic metric to emotion; like many pieces of evidence become a case in court, enough pain added together becomes a reason and motivation in and of itself - and damn where it comes from or why.
The subjectivity of pain is the strength of the devil. A splinter and a bullet can cause equal pain in two different people, and both will scream. Was the rage of the man at the injury of his dog equal to the rage of the mother at the death of her son? And the poor, dumb dog; were it able to speak, would it have also asked for the child who wronged it to die? I think it would have.
I think this passage perfectly expresses the concept of the frenzied flame madness, but not just in it's tone. The very fact that Ivan speaks at such length exudes that compulsion behind madness, that NEED to communicate his madness and, in a way, infect his brother with the very same seeds. In Elden Ring, this madness is very physically represented by the flame from the eyes but it is painful to the individual to release it. The very act of speaking of madness can sometimes make it more painful.
I loved this, I still haven’t dived deep into the lore of the frenzied flame, but from what little I’ve seen, and with this, I understand.
Life should end not because of hatred towards the living, not because life is not worth living, but because life means senseless suffering, and nothing is worth paying that price, so let it all burn.
It’s a very interesting philosophy to study, even when disagreeing with it. It’s easy to see why the brother let the other talk, same reason why we watch this video.
indeed, while it is a fundementely flawed view, it is also a very human, core emotional view that speaks to the heart of what it means to be human. that makes it hard to just dismiss, or to ignore it once youve heard it.
Is perfection not an abscence of flaw?
It all must be cleansed and purified.
No more death, no more pain...
Salvation is Damnation
@@Blessed_V0id how high were you?
@@MonroeSim What a loaded assumption.
Alcohol. Weed. Psychosis. Sleep deprivation. Perhaps im insane. Perhaps im just peculiar or weird.
Smart people dont assume. They learn.
@@Blessed_V0id lol trying so hard to sound smart on RUclips
Loved the reading. This little experiment was successful in my case at least. Only thing I'd say is that I think I would have enjoyed a bit more discussion at the end. Not because you didn't make your point, more so because I was enjoying the ride so much.
Exactly my feeling. How great would it have been to have tied it all back to the despair of the characters related to the frenzied flame in game?
Like Yura likely killing himself in despair after defeating his old partner/lover who has been consumed by the power of dragons and blood and thus becoming a vessel for Shabriri?
The nomads playing their song of suffering and despair to summon the manifestation of the flame in the shadowed catacombs of the capital, entombed alive?
The mystery of Irina/Hyetta and Edgar... there was still such fertile ground for further tie-ins and discussion, ahhhhh.
MAY CHAOS TAKE THE WORLD.
I love that you read Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov has a soft spot in my heart. I would like to note that the scene about the horse being whipped on the eyes and beaten to death also appears in another Dostoevsky novel, "Crime and Punishment" and it's something the author watched as a boy. I can only imagine how this young boy must have felt watching this defenseless animal needlessly suffering and how that impacted him as a man.
Wow that’s amazing I was confused on that dream rodion had but now it makes a little bit more sense
You've started down this path -- I beg that you continue so that many more can understand the dark truths that lie within the soulsbourne series. These games, and many others, hold the key to encouraging the philosophically uninterested to glimpse beyond the curtain. Even if only for a moment.
Thank you
YES. THIS THIS THIS. They're absolutely gateways for so many different philosophies. Existentialism, Entropy, Nihilism, Death and Rebirth, Duality of Existence, Free Will vs Determinism, The Concept of Time, Deism.
There's so much there in each of the games. More lore youtubers need to do this and look outside of the text of the game to gain a more round understanding of their concepts. Its why videos like this one and Jacob Geller's Dark Souls 3 Is Thinking of Ending Things are some of my favorites.
@@ATC43 I think one of the problem with trying to tie outside philosophies onto the game is, it is very possible that one are just projecting it onto the work regardless if it's actually there or not. One unfortunate example is pretty much anyone who tries to attribute their preferred philosophy and/or values onto Tolkien's works, claiming that his works absolutely have allegories pertaining to [insert whatever here].
I am not saying this to forbid nor dismiss this process as just "reading too much into it" since even I find most videos like the one Rata made here to be very enjoyable and insightful, I guess I'm just saying this to give a reason why not many people want to risk sounding pretentious.
@@shira_yone That's a fair point. Though I also think it's important to consider that, although authors may not specifically intend to depict some religious or moral philosophy, they often still do. Particularly in the west with Judeo-Christian beliefs and ideas. When you start to look for it and break it down there are tons of parallels between all kinds of stories and philosophies. Most stories are just repackaging some ideas that have already been iterated on countless times. And I don't think that's a bad thing by any means.
Point is I don't think it's unfair or wrong to seek out parallels between these things. I don't necessarily believe that projecting your beliefs onto some work is wrong. I definitely think it can be poorly thought out and not be a good projection or connection. But there is nothing wrong with finding unintentional parallels in any work as long as the parallel makes sense. lol.
Hopefully what i'm saying makes sense. Haha. I don't even know if i'm actually making a good point or addressing anything. More of just a thought dump.
@@shira_yone isnt that the point of art. Its there and not matter what the viewer will have an interpretation of it whether its good or not
@@ryanhopkins5239 audience having interpretations of their own and someone proclaiming that the author of the art having the same interpretation as them are 2 different things.
Other than that, yes that may be so. All I'm saying is just be careful not to cross the line and became the latter (like that really dumb article claiming Elden Ring was about the pandemic).
What you said isn't exactly relevant to what I was saying, no offense.
The Brothers Karamazov is possibly my favorite novel of all time, and I'd frankly pay to hear you narrate the entire book.
It’s kind of crazy how often video games build an entirely new world, but then ask the exact same questions in our world. I remember playing Witcher 3 and thinking about the interpretation of the bloody Baron and his family, for example. A Christian might feel sympathy for the Baron, being cuckolded while away at war and providing for his family. Not to mention his wife’s abortion and her apparent success in turning his daughter against him despite her own flaws. A secular person, OTOH, will more likely see the Baron as a monster and hate him.
Seeing the complete disarray that is the world of Elden Ring, it can be totally understandable that one would even prefer the nihilistic route that the frenzied flame represents. After all, you look at the cities and towns in the Lands Between (like Leyndell, and the smaller towns like the Windmill village, Sellia, Village of the Albinaurics, etc) and see them completely depopulated and destroyed beyond a few enemies mindlessly programmed to attack you. What’s even here to preserve? Liurnia is flooded, and Caelid is engulfed in scarlet rot and surrounded by walls of fire to keep it out of Limgrave. Even the eternal cities are ruined.
that’s why the elden lord ending is the worst one all you do is continue the cycle changing it slightly
I don't get the dichotomy of Christian and secular. You can justify the wife and the husband in both worldviews. The wife did the cheating and turned the daughter against her father. That's very easy to feel sympathy for him in a secular worldview.
This reminds me so much of I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream.
It's a story about humans using supercomputers and machines to fight their wars for them. Except the supercomputers merge and become self aware. The machine calls itself AM and has a existential crisis. It realizes that even though it is godlike and can control every computer in the world It will still never be anything other than a machine. It can never experience touch or ever "live".
AM sees this as an inexcusable flaw in it's design and cannot bear an imperfect existence. It causes him unimaginable suffering and he becomes self hating. The Agony of it drives AM to blame his human creators and hate humanity for creating AM. So he wipes out all life except for 5 humans so he can spend eternity making the world their own personal hell.
AM hates his own existence so much that he assumes his creators are evil simply for building him.
A selfaware supercomputer could conquer the galaxy i think it could make a physical body with nanobots and be able to feel and "live" lol. Or is it more complicated that this?
@@Darth_Bateman Saying stupid stuff without really explaining anything does not contribute anything to the conversation. You probably think that life is somehow special and "living" can not be achieved by "non-living" material which is just wrong. I will stop speculating what your beliefs are though you can write them, but you probably won't since you don't really know anything. Also stop using infinity in a metaphorical sense, nothing can be "infinitely more complicated".
@@Darth_Bateman To start off, even if i m wrong and you are right, your first comment didn't contribute anything to the conversation, you didn't explain anything you just said "i disagree" which does nothing. I was right on that and i hope you can agree if you are as smart as you think.
Now to the main subject. You do make your opinion clear but you still don't really explain why my thought process is wrong. I said "A selfaware AI could conquer the galaxy => (therefore) it can make nanobots and have the sense of touch". You said that s not possible without answering why is it not possible. Let me make my case more clear, an AI which is aware and conscious will keep making itself smarter and smarter and with the use of internet it won't be long before it has surpassed the intelligence of all of humanity. Explain why this statement is false. Also there are many physicists, philosophers and such which agree that such an AI is a real danger to humanity, do you disagree with them too?.
@@Darth_Bateman Still haven't answered? Come on i want to know more since you obviously know that much. It can't be that you actually searched up the subject and realised you re wrong, that would never happen. But in the off chance it did please tell me. I want you to link me your sources so i can check them out. You don't start a debate with someone call him stupid (which i may well be if i m so wrong and your claims are much more likely than mine) and then proceed to ignore him. If you are reading this and this is what you are doing you need to take a good look in the mirror and question your morality, your value and your intelligence.
@@ilias-4252 wow... i never comment and i did not expect people to get so heated about the first comment i make... wild...
Also, to contribute to your question. AM never conquers a galaxy, only earth. AM is hyper intelligent yes, but is limited by the technology of his creators. AM also would have no basis to understand how to "feel". That would be like asking a person who has always been blind to comprehend sight. Even if he did have the ability to do so, any attempt he made to be anything other than a machine would only be an imitation. So even if he could "feel" he could never know if it was accurate to the biological experience or a failed attempt.
Also keep in mind AM is portrayed as basically insane and egomaniacal sooooo his thoughts and actions might not always be sensical lol.
I've been skeptical as ive heard you talk about this in other videos, but that was really cool. It did really convey the feeling you were trying to explain.. I guess why try to explain it yourself when you can quote something like that?
well done dude
The Flame of Frenzy represents a type of nihilism born from despair and that despair no longer being contained as it consumes everything in its miserable howling , rejecting life itself. The dark side of the color yellow is often associated with madness, the book the King in Yellow being a prime example of this.
I've felt this nihilistic despair and struggle with it still from time to time but the counter to this belief is to hold life and its potential for something better to a greater value than the suffering that exists and that's really difficult but when you finally break from that cycle you have a clarity of just how beautiful this world truly is and gain a greater appreciation for it. It truly is madness, it locks you in a mental cycle that narrows your thinking from all potential and possibilities so you only see destruction as the only possible answer. Funny enough the Castlevania anime posits a similar quandary and has a character counter by saying " Say you get what you want and kill all the people in the world. You end human cruelty yes but you end human kindness too. No more jokes, no more surprises." But then he goes on to ask the other character with this mindset why not teach others to try and make that suffering a little less by your own hands(paraphrasing but that's the gist of it). It frames the mindset of yellow nihilism as one of extreme deprivation but asks the person locked in it to use that unique perspective to help make less suffering in the world and in turn less suffering for themselves. This way you are channelling that pain, the agony of those that have suffered and continues to suffer in to something positive, to increase life's potential for something better and in a way avenge that suffering. This was long but this video really got me thinking.
Sadly, I really don't get any comfort from being in the same boat with all of you. Too many scum keep shooting the floor. Not enough men want them thrown overboard.
There is a fault with that, what if they have tried numerous times and seen others fail and suffer. You cannot talk a terrorist out of killing, a general from slaughtering civilians, a murder from killing, a company from polluting for money, and so on. Like is both beautiful and cruel, the beauty cannot overwhelm the pain because those in pain cannot see the beauty, even if they can it is mundane compared to the quantity of cruelty they face. Any good you do to erase suffering can be undone in an instant, it has happened and will continue to happen, because it is nature. And I say that as someone who isn't a nihilist
@@latel4544 You're missing the point of what I said entirely. The goal is the effort put in not necessarily the end itself as there will always be suffering. I said nothing about ending it as that's not possible. You focus on what you can do and you keep trying. Your essentially making an argument for inaction which is exactly how that nihilistic despair I described traps you. "Since life has no intrinsic meaning the collective suffering of life outweighs anything good life has to offer so it would be better if we all just disappeared" is what the Flame of Frenzy represents in relation to us. My point is that to overcome that lie you need to be able to see the value of life beyond just the suffering and do what's within your power to make less suffering and in turn make your own suffering less. This can be done in a myriad of ways and when you realize that despite all of the terrible things in life good can happen and life contains that potential for better and as long as that potential exists life isn't just suffering.
I don't think it's about "rejecting life itself" more like rejecting individual life and making all life one. Hyetta's particular dialogue is "melt it all away, until all is one again." I think it's important that she doesn't just leave it on "melt it all away"
@@JacobPDeIiNoNi It's a mixture of both, in the themes of elden ring you make it one again because that is how life was prior to the mistake, if there is no individual there can be no suffering no thought. But that conclusion philosophically is gathered from "all life suffers and to end it all life must end. As that is better than the suffering life causes" I'm speaking of both the Frenzied Flame and the literature. As that sentiment has been used a lot in recent years for antagonists but usually misunderstood
From what I gather, the Frenzied Flame is neither good nor evil... it's something different. It's melancholy, anguish, and despair incarnate. Of all the places it manifests at, it manifests where folk have suffered the most, like the merchants who've been persecuted and genocided because of the plague that cursed their people, or the Erdtree soldiers displaced all over Mount Gelmir who faced great losses during Morgott's crusade against Volcano Manor, or the graceless Tarnished who are constantly treated with vitriol and prejudice just because of the greater forces that be, which they have no control over.
Even the Three Fingers, what we're led to believe are the source of the Frenzied Flame, appear to be in pain, despair, and suffering, and when they transfer the flame over to us... they crumble to dust and ashes, dead, gone... free from the torment they felt. When you think about it, it's less like some evil being branding us with its curse, and more like some desperate creature trying to free itself of some horrible agony that befell upon it... which leads me to wonder why the Three Fingers were down there in the first place. Why are they considered the symbol of chaos if they too wish to be freed of it?
Beaut
That’s an interesting thought the only reason I can really think of is because the three fingers are just as deep as deep root depths and thanks to tarnished archeologist we know that’s the location of the lower part of leyndell or atleast what’s left of it. Imagine a siege being so bad the entire lower part of the city collapses hundreds of meters underground that’s a good 10k+ dead instantaneously maybe even more that and the siege and probably the despair of those shunned underground is probably the reason the three fingers are there so like it’s either 1 the three fingers are kind of like a jujustu kaisen type of spirit that manifests where there’s the most suffering (also toms of dead bodies before we get down there of people who’ve gone mad also wonder how that happened) or it’s just it’s original location right below the erdtree which I have my own questions of why the two fingers are three fingers are so close yet so far from eachother
It isn't attracted to suffering as much as it is attracted to death per se, it seems. Through death comes suffering so that certainly has a part in it, but the final catalyst of it all is death, without a chance for rebirth.
Nah the merchants thought they could make a central bank in the lands between and failed. Godfrey found out
The three fingers don't do that. They keep existing.
This is the third time that I have watched this video, you laid out your points so eloquently. I think that you really portrayed what the frenzied flame is all about. Even though I strongly disagree with the nihilistic worldview held by the frenzied flame worshipers, this is still a very well made video & I could not have done it better myself if I tried.
The Frenzied Flame ideology is very similar to that of Instrumentality in Neon Genesis Evangelion. The idea that the world should return to where it all began. Everyone and everything all melting into one primordial soup, one collective where there are no boundaries, no suffering and no life. All would be one and as such no one would ever be alone, no one would ever suffer again.
This was a breath of fresh air from all the videos the cover the lore in its literal sense. It was nice watching something that tackles the philoshical ideas and themes that go beyond the standard plot.
Nice reference, thinking about Evangelion right after reading those 17 pages made me look at it another way.
Nailed it 100%.
It's basically Gnosticism
Watching this now my man. Incredible illuminating take. Thank you for this awesome take!
Ayo love your content Smough
@@jakobblakemore2849 thank you sir!
Man...this was a hard hitting video. Showing the mindset one has to walk through to get to a place that all life must be avenged for the wrongdoing and suffering that was caused. Kinda makes sense why the starting of the actual frenzied flame quest starts with Edgar as he sought the very revenge of his daughter and continue on in a maddened bloodlust to murder others as well.
I think the game actually makes a strong case for Frenzied Flame, because every person you meet is suffering in this world, one way or another. And even nature itself is suffering greatly, is corrupted and deformed.
@@DraconianDeus I agree. What is left if Ranni wins, or Goldmask rune wins? The Lands Between are still governed by war, and slavery, and cruelty, and rot. Let it all burn.
@@DraconianDeus and so you decide to kill everyone for the sins and desires of the few?
@@vyor8837
When your dog is dying painfully but its tail still wags when you pet it and feed it treats despite its suffering, you don't feel inclined to prolong the suffering, no? Most people instead opt to take their dog to the vet to say goodbye and put it down.
I don't agree that the Frenzied Flame is the way to go, but I can still understand why someone would see it as a viable option. There are more than just a "few" people suffering and sinning in the Lands Between, the entire world is dying horribly and for every genuinely nice person you find, a hundred more are suffering. Hell, the few kind people the Tarnished helps in their travels just wind up dead or worse in most cases; why not just end _everyones'_ suffering by melding the world?
@@ojamarojo1301 because death as mercy should be done on a case by case basis.
My depressed ass should not have watched this lol
Same
that story was a wonderful way to get people in the right headspace.
It shares some truths that I have shared with people.
Personally the frenzied flame hits a little close to home for me in its desires. to explain this: When one is condemned for the sin of existence, shamed for what they never asked for, and refused compassion in their darkest hour, they will learn hate. If they are to find one that accepts them however, that shows them love. They will learn zealous loyalty.
now if that person is ripped away from them in the most heinous of ways, by those who have hurt them all their life. There is only madness, and the desire to burn it all down.
This vid was fantastic. While I haven't read The Brothers Karamazov, I have read some other Dostoevsky literature, and I love the exploration of the human condition within said books. It would also be cool of you to discuss the other endings of the game as well.
You got me with this one. I closed my eyes as you read the passage and felt that flame of anger and injustice burning inside me, almost wishing for the end of all the childrens suffering by any means. I get it. I think I felt the flame of frenzy through that passage. Wonderful work.
Also made me realize I should probably try out audiobooks because my ADHD brain could never follow russian literature but I followed this wonderfully. Thank you.
I have very very unmedicated ADHD and listening to audiobooks is how I fall asleep every night. Tonight I'm listening to one that is like a journey through the milky way. So I plan to close my eyes and imagine those giant structures out there and, hopefully, dream of them.
Audiobooks are phenomenal and they've changed the way I live in a very real way. Go get Audible. Lay down for a nap one day and just close your eyes and paint a picture in your mind. Hell, you might even be disappointed that you have to go back to the real world when the nap ends... 😉
I have ADD, so like the other guy and you I am with you with the same mental state. and Audio books have really transformed how I am able to enjoy literature. before it would take me months to even open a book, let alone read it for a longer time period. but with an audio book, every time I'm in the train, or waiting for something I can listen to a little passage and it's so much easier.
Yes, that burning is always there.
Sometimes people with ADHD find it very helpful to have an audiobook playing while they read the words on paper/screen at the same time (I've occasionally heard this referred to as 'immersive reading'). If you decide to have a go at The Brothers Karamazov, it's an old enough book to be in the public domain so you can get both the text and recordings of people reading the audio for free to give it a shot and see how it goes.
I want to say that I am someone who also has fucking awful ADHD, but also has found in themselves the ability to sit down and read from a physical book for thirty+ minutes a day. I have found in my own experience that when you begin to actually get something out of a book, you are able to bear with your own tendency to look away. ADHD can hurt, but it can also, by its nature, make reading several thousand times more rewarding, and being able to see the text for yourself and to stop reading and start reading, to go back and reread with only the flick of your eye, is incredibly rewarding. Once you get a taste of what reading can offer, the harder task of reading from a page is suddenly made far easier, because your ADHD brain literally derives its everything in that moment from what those words say to it, and the freedom that physically reading a book gives to the mind is incredible.
Now, everyone is different, and one persons experience with ADHD can be very different from another, and by no means am I attempting to shame anyone for reading an audiobook. Audiobooks are good, and if one feels they need that format to actually read a book, then it’s a worthwhile thing to do.
The pinned comment represents what happens to a generation of minds steeped in "cinematic" "universe" analysis. Like you said in your dark souls 3 videos, it's a failure to engage with the metaphorical. Folding Ideas has a great video about this in regards to the movie Annihilation. Just because the Frenzied Flame is an outer god in the context of the literal events of the game doesn't negate its role as a literary metaphor. Really getting tired of "cinemasins" level "criticism" hijacking the conversations we have about art.
edit: great video.
You are 200% right
Yes and no. Metaphor is how you personally choose to interpret say the frenzied flame. Some authors like Tolkien resolutely deny that their stories were allegorical in any way to anything other than the story they were telling. If you choose to put FS "stories" on a certain level that's more a statement of yourself. You might reject the simple character drama of the game's plot and focus on artistic metaphor, but then I'd go even farther and say that's a reflection of yourself and your willingness to overindulge in meandering and vague writing for a videogame.
@@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS Are you implying there is no authorial intent to convey themes through storytelling in fromsoftware games? Do you seriously think that they didnt intend for these allegories to be drawn from their work? You say that Tolkein explicitly denied doing such a thing, but why the hell do you assume that Fromsoftware is the same? To anyone who does even the slightest analysis of their storytelling, it is abundantly clear that these are intentional parallels made to build themes.
@@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS @Alpha Beef
Tbh your both right and wrong, every story told has almost a form of metaphor but also direction, of course story's can be heavily influenced one way or the other but the writers personal life and also philosophical understanding or view can have influence, just like the story itself untied from the writers life created from imagination or told from a source does too.
You can't really have one without the other even a tiny bit creeps in at either spectrum. I also agree that the writers of the game had a vision and deeper meaning to there work and theme, while also agreeing that they leave it open ended and prices missing so that the consumer/viewer has to solve it and form his own understanding and opinion of what they were trying to say, like all good story's creating discussion like us right now on who's right and what means what.
So wouldn't bother arguing when no one is right or wrong completely just opinions in the grand scheme, just glad there's story's being told like this that broaden the imagination and can actually form deeper meaning if you choose to look for it.
@@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS that is pretty much why I like the souls style of storytelling since it leaves room for interpretation and discourse. Now we do know there has been many themes that does return in the games, and you can find those just by the environmental storytelling. Which is pretty cool
I feel like a lot of people focus too much on the lore itself and not on the themes of Fromsoft games, so your videos are such a breath of fresh air.
My God. Absolutely wonderful. That excerpt captivated me, and I felt the anger and indignation. The reasoning was solid, and the emotional appeal was gripping. I understood what the Flame of Frenzy was, but I didn't understand adhering to it. I now do. Fantastic video, though I would've liked more discussion at the end.
Same, I was also expecting an analysis at the end contextualizing the excerpt with the game, but still liked the video
This is perfect, and I admit I find sympathy for Ivan's point of view, and the flame of frenzy. It is destructive, but a righteous destruction.
But you would never experience the beauty of life
You would become nothing
And Despair, suffering, torment and pain is what makes life meaning yes it drains our strength and will as time goes
But there is beauty in it....what gives life purpose is what you must find for yourself
To evolve, to experience, and to get through the obstacles in your path
Although Life is bound by rules it is acceptable
@@Vergil4093 That's a selfish and priveleged perspective of someone who has freedom. Think of the child killed at 8 by hunting dogs. They did not have choice or freedom.
I will not take my own life or any others'. But I agree with the idea that what beauty life and consciousness has to offer is not worth the suffering of the innocent. It would have been better to not exist.
@@TheOneFoolishMan and what choice of freedom do you give to them .
You do not allow them to experience or to think and in the decision of existence you are are equally selfish as anyone else for the decision is only made by you're own view.
@@dylanlimoeiro7596 they wont know because they dont exist, they have no consiousness.
@@anomitas and yet somehow non existance is good even if they dont experience it
My dad raised us as jehovah's witnesses and it's taken me so many years to understand all the wrong that cult did to us. He would hit us quoting bible verses, it felt like we were walking on eggshells, he was one way in front of all his "brothers and sisters" and another way with his own family, but this was all okay because the cult permits it. I use to get mad at my nephews and nieces and would yell at them a lot, my whole family to be honest has that problem even now. I'm shaking right now at what this video means, we all have that devil inside us that wants to burn everything down in retaliation for what was done to us all. Even so, I want to hold on to what Melina said "However ruined this world has become, however mired in torment and despair, life endures. Births continue. There is beauty in that, is there not?"
There really has to be more to this life than despair and uncertainty. There is beauty in it, even if I'm scared in participating in it, I still want to try.
My parents both had very, very difficult childhoods, and their parents before them. BUT MY CHILDHOOD was loving, and wonderful, and I love my Mom and Dad with all my heart and soul. My parents CHOSE to break the cycle of violence, to break the wheel that crushes all who came before. My life has been wonderful, and supportive, and so I am a living testament that beauty exists, and that a bright future is real!
The answer is not to burn the world to ashes, the answer is to break the wheel and establish a Logic to the world; to design a civilization that educates it's people in kindness, human rights, and logic. That teaches people child-phycology (like what my mother learned), so that parents do not fall to their most evil instincts when raising their children, but instead behave as My Mother did, with calmness, logic, and understanding.
Love is real, Love has value, and it is up to US to give our love to all around us! To raise our children to be BETTER than us, to raise our futures to greater heights, and the reject the backwards, bronze age nonsense that permits evil men to quote dusty books while tormenting children.
Life, itself, has no inherent meaning, or purpose. WE give life meaning, WE only have that power, and so it is up to US to seek Justice and spread meaningful education to all the world, so that mankind can have the wisdom to choose love and human rights over the demons that lurk within them.
And THAT is very possible! I am living proof of it, and so is my Mother and Father!
The argument made here only works if you accept the premise that no amount of suffering is worth the beauty of existence. You could make an alternative argument, that there is some amount of beauty in life that would be worth untold suffering. But the idea of the video was to steelman that position to get you into the mindset of one who would seek to destroy it all. And it was very effective.
@@BlankPicketSign bruh, I'm kind of... envious..
Damn...
Thou’rt but a fool. Even now, liberty vanishes from the face of the earth.
@@JokerDoom Granted steelmanning doesn't mean that a mindset has to be agreed with or a point of view can't be disagreed with. I do understand it, but even understanding this view point I don't agree with it. I don't have to agrue with this steelmanned line of thinking anyway either, I can give my reason for disagreeing and that is that. It has taught me to understand this viewpoint, but also taught me even more so to reject it with every fiber of my being for the argument is the eradication of everything we hold dear. And that cannot be reasoned with, but, simply defied and pushed back against.
Subscribed. As an avid audiobook and philosophy fan, and Elden Ring player, this was pure gold. Ivan a benevolent nihilist, and thus is the frenzied flame.
no such thing as a benevolent nihilist
Man, hearing finding out that there was a way to end the suffering of not just everyone, but every*thing* in the lands between made me finally feel like there was an ending I WANTED to reach in a Souls Game. Say what you will, but to me, this is the good ending.
I strongly disagree. I think it would be awful to wipe out all of life just because some of it is bad. That said, I find it wonderful that Miyazaki and his team managed to create such a deep world with such genuinely powerful philosophies that for once, there is no one "bad ending". It shows how morality is never absolute but relative to personal values.
I don't even wish for the end of everything, but no one is offering a better alternative!
People are always crying about how evil the frenzied flame ending is, when the best they offer instead is just a new group being privileged and doing nothing about suffering.
To those ignorant people, since you see life beautiful enough to accept suffering, I wish you all the suffering, illness, ugliness, sin and curse in your addiction to life.
The Frenzied Flame ending is no different than what Thanos was trying to accomplish. In every story in which somebody tries to destroy the world/universe to end all suffering, the person responsible is always the villain, no matter how sympathetic they are.
It doesn't matter how you justify it, no one has the right to make that choice on behalf of everyone else.
@@xdragoon2129what the fuck is wrong with you
@@Galamoth06did you ask to be born? No one gets a choice about anything in this life. They're simply handed what they're handed and make due with it. Both Thanos and the frenzied flame are very relatable to me since they accept that what they're doing isn't necessarily good. The whole point is that we're incapable of fixing the world. Thanos chose his way thinking it was best though I do think he had a bit of an ego. But with the frenzied flame, it's really hard for me to argue that it's a morally bad ending in an objective sense. Maybe not the most favorable to most people, but I agree that implicit in the division of the one great is the possibility (some might say inevitability) of disharmony. Of course, those are just media, in real life, people's practical approaches and actions are often quite different. But in my mind, there's no denying that for however bleak or nihilistic the rhetoric of the frenzy flame may sound, there's a solid, logical basis to it's goals and even if I wouldn't myself choose them, I certainly can't begrudge anyone who does, knowing what people can suffer in this world
Honestly, such a good fucking video.
The last place I thought I’d stumble on Dostoevsky but hey, let’s go.
So the flame of frenzy is like the Human Instrumentality Project in Neon Genisis Evangelion. It's trying to destroy all barriers and make everything one again. It happens when Shinji gives up on humanity and wants it all to die. No more individuality, no more pain, no more conflict. I wouldn't be surprised seeing Marika is similar to Lilith being a god like being with having a red spear in her side and being crucified.
So basically we're all shinji as player characters. Who would be Asuka and rei? Shabriri and hyetta maybe?
Melina: Get in the Erdtree Shinji!
So, Neon Genisis Evangelion is just Melena's talk with the tarnished in the shunning grounds extended then?
No, I don't think that's an accurate read at all. The Instumentality Project is about destroying all barriers, yes. But the difference is what happens after.
In Evangelion when those barriers are destroyed it means a person's soul returns to the godhead, they become one with the universe in a state of utter joy and happiness, and because we can literally see the process, the angels leading the charge and all of it, we know that means they are literally being reunited with god. They're becoming part of god and are effectively being raptured to heaven.
The Flame of Frenzy is not sending anyone to any god. It's ending *everything* including the cycle and the process of the soul to go to any deity, get reincarnated, or be reunited with anything. It's just . . . the end. Nothingness. It's the equity of the graveyard on a universal scale.
An enigmatic crucified being with a very conspicuous shard that, once removed, triggers it into action by the desire of another entity (the beast) is an extremely close parallel, now that you mention it. The arc was much more prominent, of course, but the red shard from the presumable beating that body undertook was, of course, a very deliberate choice for the aesthetic. Pretty interesting.
"The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas"
I hadn't read this short story previous to watching this video. But as you were reading those 17 pages, I remembered a conversation I had with an old friend from high school on this story he was reading in english class. He had told me that in this story, there is a city called Omelas. It is a perfect city where everybody is happy and no one suffers.
No one except one singular child. This child is locked away from all people and suffers miserably everyday so that the rest of the city may live in happiness.
Now most people when they find this out are, for good reason, disgusted. But they choose to go on living their life in Omelas not in blissful ignorance but in acceptance of the truth. However, there are those who are not content with this small sin upon their city. These are the ones who walk away in search of an even better world, or at the very least, reject this one.
The reason I was reminded of this is because of Ivan. Omelas is proof (in this fiction) that even the most perfect of worlds always has suffering. And to me, if I understood the point of the passage correctly (it really may have just flown right over my head), Ivan would've walked away from Omelas. For it is a lie. And I think that is the message of the Frenzied Flame. That you can either blissfully ignore the suffering, embrace it, or upend the whole of it and seek to destroy it.
Awesome video regardless. I would love someone to correct me on my points though if I really just missed the ball on this take.
Without suffering one cannot know happiness.
@@FlyfishermanMike but who does the suffering and why must they suffer? Is that suffering worth the happiness? How much suffering to happiness is proportional? Enough to know the difference? Is a single child forever tormented worth the joy of a city? Should millions slave to serve a noble few? Could it not be argued that the lack of knowledge to suffering or joy be preferable to any amount of physical, mental, and emotional anguish?
@@FlyfishermanMike I would do much to live a life where I felt nothing at all, for once to have a middling day, and not one where I orgasm, and 300 where I cry.
Earthsea was a good book; never read The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas also by Ursula Le Guin
From what I understood, Frenzied flame is the state where a being realizes its purpose. Which is none. There is absolutely no reason to go on because deep inside, we all know:
We are a "badly made" specie (The mistake mentionned by Hayata) . Always seeking for more and more. Never satisfied with our current status. A vicious circle that will ALWAYS bring suffering (physical or mental). And to avoid that, we can temporary escape that suffering with the suffering of the others. By being "Superior". In intelligence, in fortune, in success, the list goes on and on. But as a badly made specie, we adapt, and we want more. "Just a little bit more" we often hear.
From facts and books, we can also conclude that the biggest of Humanity is the Boredom. This, for me at least, is one of the biggest source of suffering. Boredom is the actual feeling of feeling useless as, by nature, we get used to pretty much everything we might get an interest into. And so, we ask for more, to distract our mind, as we absolutely DON'T WANT, to be alone with our mind and our thoughts and questions about life's meaning (What should I do now.... at what cost...?)
We are a specie that loves to feel superior to its pair. Therefore, there will ALWAYS people inferiors to others.
Frenzied Flame is, in a way, the consciousness. The consciousness to exist.
An animal, have the ability to simply sleep when it has nothing to do. When it's time to hunt, it will hunt. When it's time travel, it will travel. They have no time to think about their "purpose". Constantly fighting for their life.
As the ultimate Apex specie, we've come to a point where there is no "survival" anymore. We have too much time for ourself. The Boredom is a human and only human thing. The only specie to know and endure this feeling every know and then. An extremely new feeling a the scale of our Planet's life.
Another famous quote that could perfectly describe what is the Frenzied flame is:
Hard times create strong people
Strong people create good times
Good times create weak people
The ultimate vicious circle specific to our specie. The world of Elden Ring, fulfilled with gigantic and magnificent castles and such (Good times)..., Today, there is nothing but ruins (Hard times).
The Frenzied Flame is when someone will have the horror though "What now... What should I do.... At what cost"
Anyway, great video and very instructive! (Am not depressed tho haha. Life will always win I hope!
Big kisses to everyone who had the patience this read this pile of crap X)
Well put!!
Wow. I came for elden ring, I left with enlightenment. This took quite the turn into realism and just wow. I love this, and it makes the frenzied flame all the more recognizable.
Wow, I never would've thought I will find a video relating the work of my favorite writer to one of the endings of my favorite game. You should check out "The beggar boy at Christ's Christmal Tree" if you want to use Miquella's needle on your newly discovered frenzied flame. It's a short but bittersweet story. Mostly bitter but the sweet part is still very rare for Dostoyevsky.
I guess I would like use this opportunity to say a little bit about Dostoyevsky in general: His way of writing about madness is absolutely immaculate. Dostoyevsky suffered immensely through his life. His own execution was stopped at the very last moment and instead he was sentenced to 8 years of hard labour in Siberia (although the order from the emperor came much earlier and the whole execution was basically staged. Yeah, russians have a wicked sense of humor). It is said that one of the rebels sentenced to execution actually went insane during this performance. There are a couple of recurring ideas in Dostoevsky's novels such as: pettiness of soul (which can be seen in many characters across all of his works) , in this particular case - in Fedor Karamazov, existential boredom and indolence like in Nikolai Stavrogin and, of course, madness. Themes of madness appear in Crime and Punishment, Gambler, Idiot, Brothers Karamazov but no other work could capture it better than "The Possessed". In this book the whole town gets consumed by madness and if you want to feel like the one who is fully consumed by the frenzied flame look no further than at the character of Petr Verhovensky. Here are some pieces from what is possibly the best frenzied monologue in history (at least in my opinion).
This is only a part of the monologue with some parts cut and the book covers a plethora of ideas apart from the ones I mentioned earlier. But the site portrayed by Dostoevsky of characters consumed by chaos and wickedness is both mesmerizing and terrifying at the same time. Anyway, I hope I managed to pick your interest with my half-assed attempt of elaborate speaking in the foreign language. I truly believe that Dostoyevsky's novel's are some of the best pieces of art humanity has ever created and my love for his works has no end. There is enough food for thought in his works for days and months and every time I come back to them over the years, I find something new. I'll leave you in the hands of professionals now
“Stop! Not another step!” he cried, seizing him by the arm. Stavrogin tried to pull away his arm, but did not succeed. He was overcome with fury. Seizing Verhovensky by the hair with his left hand he flung him with all his might on the ground and went out at the gate. But he had not gone thirty paces before Verhovensky overtook him again.
“Let us make it up; let us make it up!” he murmured in a spasmodic whisper.
Stavrogin shrugged his shoulders, but neither answered nor turned round.
“Listen. I will bring you Lizaveta Nikolaevna to-morrow; shall I? No? Why don’t you answer? Tell me what you want. I’ll do it. Listen. I’ll let you have Shatov. Shall I?”
Skipped to avoid spoilers
“What do you want with Shatov? What is he to you?” Pyotr Stepanovitch went on, gasping, speaking rapidly. He was in a frenzy, and kept running forward and seizing Stavrogin by the elbow, probably unaware of what he was doing. “Listen. I’ll let you have him. Let’s make it up. Your price is a very great one, but … Let’s make it up!”
Stavrogin glanced at him at last, and was amazed. The eyes, the voice, were not the same as always, or as they had been in the room just now. What he saw was almost another face. The intonation of the voice was different. Verhovensky besought, implored. He was a man from whom what was most precious was being taken or had been taken, and who was still stunned by the shock.
“But what’s the matter with you?” cried Stavrogin. The other did not answer, but ran after him and gazed at him with the same imploring but yet inflexible expression.
“Let’s make it up!” he whispered once more. “Listen. Like Fedka, I have a knife in my boot, but I’ll make it up with you!”
“But what do you want with me, damn you?” Stavrogin cried, with intense anger and amazement. “Is there some mystery about it? Am I a sort of talisman for you?”
“Listen. We are going to make a revolution,” the other muttered rapidly, and almost in delirium. “You don’t believe we shall make a revolution? We are going to make such an upheaval that everything will be uprooted from its foundation. Karmazinov is right that there is nothing to lay hold of. Karmazinov is very intelligent. Another ten such groups in different parts of Russia-and I am safe.”
...
“Take Shigalov, and let me alone.…”
“Shigalov is a man of genius! Do you know he is a genius like Fourier, but bolder than Fourier; stronger. I’ll look after him. He’s discovered ‘equality’!”
“He is in a fever; he is raving; something very queer has happened to him,” thought Stavrogin, looking at him once more. Both walked on without stopping.
“He’s written a good thing in that manuscript,” Verhovensky went on. “He suggests a system of spying. Every member of the society spies on the others, and it’s his duty to inform against them. Every one belongs to all and all to every one. All are slaves and equal in their slavery. In extreme cases he advocates slander and murder, but the great thing about it is equality. To begin with, the level of education, science, and talents is lowered. A high level of education and science is only possible for great intellects, and they are not wanted. The great intellects have always seized the power and been despots. Great intellects cannot help being despots and they’ve always done more harm than good. They will be banished or put to death. Cicero will have his tongue cut out, Copernicus will have his eyes put out, Shakespeare will be stoned-that’s Shigalovism. Slaves are bound to be equal. There has never been either freedom or equality without despotism, but in the herd there is bound to be equality, and that’s Shigalovism! Ha ha ha! Do you think it strange? I am for Shigalovism.”
Stavrogin tried to quicken his pace, and to reach home as soon as possible. “If this fellow is drunk, where did he manage to get drunk?” crossed his mind. “Can it be the brandy?”
“Listen, Stavrogin. To level the mountains is a fine idea, not an absurd one. I am for Shigalov. Down with culture. We’ve had enough science! Without science we have material enough to go on for a thousand years, but one must have discipline. The one thing wanting in the world is discipline. The thirst for culture is an aristocratic thirst. The moment you have family ties or love you get the desire for property. We will destroy that desire; we’ll make use of drunkenness, slander, spying; we’ll make use of incredible corruption; we’ll stifle every genius in its infancy. We’ll reduce all to a common denominator! Complete equality! ‘We’ve learned a trade, and we are honest men; we need nothing more,’ that was an answer given by English working-men recently. Only the necessary is necessary, that’s the motto of the whole world henceforward. But it needs a shock. That’s for us, the directors, to look after. Slaves must have directors. Absolute submission, absolute loss of individuality, but once in thirty years Shigalov would let them have a shock and they would all suddenly begin eating one another up, to a certain point, simply as a precaution against boredom. Boredom is an aristocratic sensation. The Shigalovians will have no desires. Desire and suffering are our lot, but Shigalovism is for the slaves.”
...
“Perhaps I am raving; perhaps I am raving,” Pyotr Stepanovitch assented, speaking rapidly. “But I’ve thought of the first step! Shigalov would never have thought of it. There are lots of Shigalovs, but only one man, one man in Russia has hit on the first step and knows how to take it. And I am that man! Why do you look at me? I need you, you; without you I am nothing. Without you I am a fly, a bottled idea; Columbus without America.”
Stavrogin stood still and looked intently into his wild eyes.
“Listen. First of all we’ll make an upheaval,” Verhovensky went on in desperate haste, continually clutching at Stavrogin’s left sleeve. “I’ve already told you. We shall penetrate to the peasantry. Do you know that we are tremendously powerful already? Our party does not consist only of those who commit murder and arson, fire off pistols in the traditional fashion, or bite colonels. They are only a hindrance. I don’t accept anything without discipline. I am a scoundrel, of course, and not a socialist. Ha ha! Listen. I’ve reckoned them all up: a teacher who laughs with children at their God and at their cradle is on our side. The lawyer who defends an educated murderer because he is more cultured than his victims and could not help murdering them to get money is one of us. The schoolboys who murder a peasant for the sake of sensation are ours. The juries who acquit every criminal are ours. The prosecutor who trembles at a trial for fear he should not seem advanced enough is ours, ours. Among officials and literary men we have lots, lots, and they don’t know it themselves. On the other hand, the docility of schoolboys and fools has reached an extreme pitch; the schoolmasters are bitter and bilious. On all sides we see vanity puffed up out of all proportion; brutal, monstrous appetites.… Do you know how many we shall catch by little, ready-made ideas? When I left Russia, Littre’s dictum that crime is insanity was all the rage; I come back and I find that crime is no longer insanity, but simply common sense, almost a duty; anyway, a gallant protest. ‘How can we expect a cultured man not to commit a murder, if he is in need of money.’ But these are only the first fruits. The Russian God has already been vanquished by cheap vodka. The peasants are drunk, the mothers are drunk, the children are drunk, the churches are empty, and in the peasant courts one hears, ‘Two hundred lashes or stand us a bucket of vodka.’ Oh, this generation has only to grow up. It’s only a pity we can’t afford to wait, or we might have let them get a bit more tipsy! Ah, what a pity there’s no proletariat! But there will be, there will be; we are going that way.…”
“It’s a pity, too, that we’ve grown greater fools,” muttered Stavrogin, moving forward as before.
“Listen. I’ve seen a child of six years old leading home his drunken mother, whilst she swore at him with foul words. Do you suppose I am glad of that? When it’s in our hands, maybe we’ll mend things … if need be, we’ll drive them for forty years into the wilderness.… But one or two generations of vice are essential now; monstrous, abject vice by which a man is transformed into a loathsome, cruel, egoistic reptile. That’s what we need! And what’s more, a little ‘fresh blood’ that we may get accustomed to it. Why are you laughing? I am not contradicting myself. I am only contradicting the philanthropists and Shigalovism, not myself! I am a scoundrel, not a socialist. Ha ha ha! I’m only sorry there’s no time. I promised Karmazinov to begin in May, and to make an end by October. Is that too soon? Ha ha! Do you know what, Stavrogin? Though the Russian people use foul language, there’s nothing cynical about them so far. Do you know the serfs had more self-respect than Karmazinov? Though they were beaten they always preserved their gods, which is more than Karmazinov’s done.”
“Well, Verhovensky, this is the first time I’ve heard you talk, and I listen with amazement,” observed Stavrogin. “So you are really not a socialist, then, but some sort of … ambitious politician?”
“A scoundrel, a scoundrel! You are wondering what I am. I’ll tell you what I am directly, that’s what I am leading up to. It was not for nothing that I kissed your hand. But the people must believe that we know what we are after, while the other side do nothing but ‘brandish their cudgels and beat their own followers.’ Ah, if we only had more time! That’s the only trouble, we have no time. We will proclaim destruction.… Why is it, why is it that idea has such a fascination. But we must have a little exercise; we must. We’ll set fires going.… We’ll set legends going. Every scurvy ‘group’ will be of use. Out of those very groups I’ll pick you out fellows so keen they’ll not shrink from shooting, and be grateful for the honour of a job, too. Well, and there will be an upheaval! There’s going to be such an upset as the world has never seen before.… Russia will be overwhelmed with darkness, the earth will weep for its old gods.… Well, then we shall bring forward … whom?”
“Whom?”
“Ivan the Tsarevitch.”
“Who-m?”
“Ivan the Tsarevitch. You! You!”
My initial reaction was to criticise you for being too specific when interpreting the frenzied flame. However, after some reflection you should be commended for the 'out-the-box' interpretation.
I personally, feel the game has 3 interwoven artistic visions...Miyasaki, GRRM and Miura.
Miyasaki (From) philosophy is painted across the world. Their usual themes of cycles, birth and rebirth, dark and light. These yin and yang forces are evident in the game play. This is paintbrushed across the world as nature (demigods) are still locked in this cold war.
GRRM vision is imbedded in the architecture of the world, the castles, the furnishings, the halls and ornaments. You see these mirrors of kingdoms and fiefdoms. Where you witness aspects of these noble houses and their grandeur but then more insidious secrets. The toll these noble houses take is underwritten by pain, sacrifice and suffering on the land and inhabitants.
Finally, Miura looms large over this world. I don't think From intended the game to reflect Muira's Berserk but it feels like that DNA has somehow seeped into this game. Somehow causality and regression transcends time and space.
Thank you. Sorry to leave a random comment like this.
"Children are suffering, so let's burn them all, I guess." - The problem with using this passage in support of the Flame is that it speaks about the children, even presumes to speak for them, but it does not let them speak. Why did the boy still try to run from the dogs instead of just calmly accepting his fate and trying to get himself killed quickly? Would the girl in her dark, cold chamber really choose death over life? Children do not think that way. Even in the most horrible of circumstances, you will find that children show a will to live. What right do we have to make that decision for them?
Well put. I don't know about this, but would you consider the whole philosophy revolving around Flame of Frenzy and this literature as a form of nihilism?
That's not children you're talking about really, it's life. Life always tries to preserve itself to the end. But this is fantasy we're talking about, a game. And the question at the end of the game is precisely what would you do if given the chance to start over. You're making this decision either way.
The boy was driven only by instinct, and the same was true of the parents who brought him into the world.
There is nothing deep or spiritual about it, it is just evolutionary pragmatic behavior. Suffering and the will to survive are the stick and the carrot with which nature leads us to survive and reproduce, without any reason, plan, or reward for us at the end.
Our consciousness is also a product of evolution, it helped us survive and conquer the whole world, but we all have to chain it with lies and distractions for our own safety. We are hostages in Hell, everything suffers, dies and is reborn to suffer again. Survival is synonymous with the Stockholm syndrome, and freedom with childless death.
@@ryanli8371 Well, my point is heavily influenced by Nietzsche's argument against Schopenhauer's pessimism, and Nietzsche sure did think of this kind of pessimism as "nihilistic". The question is a bit difficult to answer though, because the term "nihilism" actually isn't that clearly defined (many people seem to think of Nietzsche as nihilistic too for some reason).
@@DraconianDeus It is indeed not just children, but life in general; I just refered to children because it allowed me to make my point more clearly.
I was listening to this in my car. I had to pull over and turn my car off just to make sure I heard everything, and i just sat there on the side of the road until the video was over.
Amazing video
This video alone is what inspired me to read The Brothers Karamazov. As such, having entered the profundity of Dostoyevsky’s thoughts, I’m grateful to you for creating it. Truly, there can be no suffering, no despair in the absence of life entirely. An ode to the utter blissfulness of nothingness at all.
Watching and listening to this video gave me what I think is a good conclusion about the flame of frenzy. So the flame of frenzy started with the three fingers right? I'm beginning to imagine that the three fingers and the flame of frenzy have this philosophy of life being an issue because the three fingers themselves were born flawed. The Three Fingers wasn't born into a life of luxury like the two fingers were, since they're basically Jehovah's witnesses for the greater will, because it was born with this maddening flame that scorches it which I imagine is incredibly painful for a being like that, the way it writhes and wriggles in it's cutscene kinda gives off the impression that it's still in a lot of pain. The Three Fingers for this reason is against everything that has to do with life in the lands between, because it was born in a way that only allowed it to suffer because what's the point of enjoying life if you were born to suffer, regardless if it were anyone's fault?
I believe that's exactly why they brand you. They burn your skin as a passing of that same pain so that you would comprehend.
@@Alex_Dul yeah exactly, inheriting it is essential having that pain be passed from it's original holder to you because no sane person would want to willingly have most of their body charred.
Also makes Miquella's Needle
seem like a fine form of antidepressant
I really don't think the 3fingers being envious of the 2fingers is something they were going for. I know a lot of anarchists and such hold on to their ideas out of envy but it reads as too simplistic to me.
@@807D14M0ND5 I'm wasn't saying it's envious of the two fingers, i was just drawing the connection that because they're fingers they were probably made by the same thing for the same purpose and the three fingers is the way it is just by sheer circumstance
@@807D14M0ND5 Yes, that's "normie" anarchy, realer anarchy would be closer to Ranni. Since anarchy is only a means to an end not an absolute because once you're gone order will come anyway. The Frenzied Flame is closer to an also normie ideal on Nihliism as well as Anarchism. Burn it all, so all can be one, since I hurt, I must be hurt. Which is kinda ironic and also why it's a great ending path. For one it shows player agency you "linked the fire" and burned the world anew. The reason why it's ironic because to finish the game "normally" means you carved a path through countless foes, you hurt many others especially if you pvp. Which makes the frenzied flame have no deep meaning after all. It's simply fire as fire burns
It's a very interesting take, this desire to return to entropy. I also think the parallel between the in game comment about births still happening and life still having beauty and meaning despite the suffering is also implied as the illusion of hope. The ones consumed by the Frenzied Flame harbor no hope, because they see all of suffering all at once, and yearn for its end.
There is a TedEx talk from 2013 by Andrew Solomon in which he states: "You don't think in depression that you've put on a gray veil and are seeing the world through the haze of a bad mood. You think that the veil has been taken away, the veil of happiness, and that now you're seeing truly."
In many works of art, most famously in pop culture the work of Lovecraft, which clearly influenced a lot of what souls games are today, knowing the truth about the world and the universe, connecting too much of the information together, leads to madness and despair.
And now, drawing a line through all the statements above, I think it's interesting and perhaps worrying, that today, when we as a species have access to so much information, and we see all the atrocities and the suffering and the meaninglessness of so much of our existence and our struggles, and the absurdity of life itself, that antinatalism has begun to gather momentum as a philosophy and as a way of life. People may not have the will or the programming to end their own lives, but more and more, people are simply refusing to bring more life into the world.
Because the world, more and more, is beyond redemption.
Well children also don't die nearly as often as they once did, and are no longer needed to work in the fields of developed countries. That has much more to do with declining birth rates than any even subconscious antinatalist sentiment.
Not only that but there are billions of humans, we don’t need to contribute to overpopulation because most people still have kids anyway.
While I agree, I believe that anti-natalism is largely a (western) male phenomena and the male will is a fickle thing easily influenced by the persuasion of woman. The persuasion of woman is still largely maternal, and since their will is anything but fickle many of us will rear young despite stating at an earlier point that we wish not to do so. I claim to not want children but I know wifey will convince me otherwise and I know I will love them dearly and try to create the best world I can for them. All the while knowing that the world is a cold and ruthless place in which my contributions are meaningless.
@@freddiekay Hey, what do you mean by "influenced by the persuasion of women"? Please be honest.
@@sydposting I can only speak for myself but the only times I feel any paternal instinct is when my partner talks about having kids or when she points out a cute kid somewhere. I don't sit around dreaming about kids but she does sometimes. We have an inside joke where "I hate kids and don't want them" which is only a slight exaggeration. But we both sort of know that we'll have kids at some point and that it's only my nihilism that stops me from wanting kids. So she motivates me and talks about how great we would be as parents, that we will raise our kids differently and so on. It's a long story but I wouldn't have any urge to have kids if she didn't highlight the positive aspects of it. As for my (male) friends, half of them only had kids after their partner convinced them. So in my anecdotal experience the woman is the main driver behind wanting to start a family. It's also an old trope in movies for a reason.
I say this experiment really payed off for me. As a generally optimistic person I generally understood the premise of the Frenzied Flame, but this really adds depth and clarity as to why someone would seek this path in the context of the game.
I've never read The Brothers Karamazov. That whole excerpt hit me like a truckload of bricks. Lots to think about.
I took the Frenzied Flame ending before I even knew fully what it meant for the world. I never even met Shabriri, at the ruins. I had already committed to the path because I had played the previous soulsborne games and knew what it meant before I had even understood it. I could see that it was an unmaking of "the natural order", the natural order of a dying world where corpses walked and people were grafted and made to live with disease and horror unending. you get no such complete sundering of the cycle in the prior games, but in this one there was that finality, that frenzying drive for oblivion through the ameliorating conflagration. I think I may have understood it so well because I struggle with my own mental illness, that at times drives me to take up suicidal ideation as easily as I can argue against it. I will never be "cured", but I will continue to live because neither option, oblivion or strife, is a better option than the other. In the real world things are too complex to be decided on with finality in such a way. But in Elden Ring, things are much simpler.
I really love how you did this, and not only does it perfectly illustrate the Frenzied Flame, but it actively entwines the artistry of Elden Ring with the artistry of respected literature. Much talk is made of video games as art, which they are, but not enough is made of their analysis and synthesis as pieces of art. By analyzing the Frenzied Flame not in terms of lore and raw game facts, but rather in terms of its place in the thematic, artistic, and literary canon, you are doing a great service that not enough people do for games. It's important, and noble even, to do with Elden Ring what is so often done with non-game art, and use comparative analysis to get further at it.
This was a very thought provoking video. I hope others get what your going for with this. It did get really morbid at times though, kids suffering really gets to me even if its just hypothetical.
the stories weren't hypothetical :(
@@yaryaryaryaryaryar don't tell me that :((((((
@@bahhhhumbug9804 He said they were all excerpts from newspapers and historical documents at the end!
And keep in mind they were just a few, select examples. Now just try to imagine for a moment the amount of suffering perpetrated all over the world since time immemorial. Ivan could have continued on for a thousand, thousand years and there still would be no end to it.
Let's be thankful that we can't, in fact, possibly imagine it. Ignorance truly is bliss.
They ain’t hypothetical, lol.
In fact, worse shit is happening as we speak. You think Epstein’s little band was all there was to it? That’s just the tip of the underwater fucking mountain.
Ratatoskr taking the lore conversation beyond what others would imagine, yet again.
I don't like Elden Ring. After being philosophically and personally changed by Dark Souls 1 & 2, I don't like Elden Ring one bit. And the reason is entirely metaphysical.
Imperfection can only exist if real perfection exists to compare it with. But the only measure of perfection we have is the world itself; it is all that is, in a practical sense, and therefore its incompleteness can be its only rule or canon of completeness. The ever-flowing river of life, time, belief, action, etc., is the only perfection we know. All perfection beyond this life is a wish, yearning for an excuse man can give to himself for his unhappiness. This is the flaw of theists and atheistic moralists alike.
Ivan is a repulsive character to me not for his atheism, but for his irrational moralism despite his atheism. The supposed imperfection of the world that leads him to reject God is in fact a human realisation of the morality that comes from belief in God. He condemns with the words of the Condemned. You can only be appalled by God's lack of goodness if your standard is goodness of, and from, a good God. How can a man judge the Judge? How can an inquisitor question the originator of all questions and answers?
Dark Souls posits two possible imperfections: the Lord of Light or the Dark Lord. Both are visions of the future, that can resolve for one cycle the yearning of humanity. It accepts the impermanence and purifying flow of life. There can be nothing beyond the scope of Light or the reach of Dark. We accept it, as eternal cycle of ever-purifying life, if we are sensible.
The flaw with Elden Ring is that its world never sufficiently establishes a perfection of choice in the imperfection of lore, in the Lands Between or beyond it, only petty politics -- between outer gods, demigods, humans. Cosmic fate and tremendous choice, as in Dark Souls, does not exist here. Light or Dark. Flame or Abyss. True Monarch or Pawn of Fate. No, in Elden Ring births are said to continue, but they clearly do not in the Lands Between, as nobody has any libido left. Yet elsewhere most places seem to be flourishing as Tarnished nations, with real births continuing, virtually unaffected by the pain and torment in the Lands Between. So what's the actual state of the WHOLE world? This lack of universal metaphysical danger, the inconsistency of the cosmos, the drama localised only in Marika's lands -- it all renders the game devoid of substantial personal & philosophical stakes compared to Dark Souls.
Before your video, I was inclined to take the Dungeater's ending out of sheer spite for all the boring characters and faceless events of this game. Now, thanks to you, I know that I must take his ending. To rebuke the plague that is Elden Ring's stories, each nowhere near as compelling as the desperation of choices made by gods and humanity when facing the fading of the First Flame. It's all just Ivans all the way down, isn't it?
Thanks for the thought provoking video, as always.
LOL you gotta burn the game after you choose that ending. then you literaly burn the lands between. I preferred the unending cycle that was going on in Dark Souls. There is no ending that feels satisfying to me in Elden Ring. Except the Elden Lord one, but just because I want to see my character in power, and because of the cool name of the title(The Elden Lord).
@@mariuzmadden8552 True, but it's more shitty to keep 'em suffering from the blessing of curses forever, rather than just blow up the world and end it all.
Indeed, as with most of the NPC stories and voice acting, none of the endings really interest me. I'll never forget how moved I was seeing the Chosen Undead consumed by the flame at the end of DS1. It was a relief, a release, a tragedy, horrific, beautiful. ER's endings give me none of that.
This was… intense and amazing. Your voice over was done with such intensity and meaning it was wonderful. I love how little you chose to talk on the frenzy flame itself, but instead let us sit with the feeling of what it MEANS.
Thank you. This was incredible.
I like to imagine the Frenzied Flame is actually DarkSoul's First Flame. It gained so much power after generations of people burning their souls into it that it *became* an outer god
I like that theory
It's an interesting theory, however at the end of ds3, and despite all the people who sacrificied themselves to the fire, its barely anymore than a flicker
one of themes of dark souls was that, no matter how powerfull, nothing was eternal and everything had to come to an end
To me the first flamme has been snuffed for good, never to be lit again and the flamme of frenzy is the result of something entierly different.
Beside the idea behind the two flamme is fundamentally different, the first flamme was a fire of creation and disparity, the flamme of frenzy is absolute destruction and grey
I'm not sure the two flames correlate, as the First Flame brought disparity, while the Flame of Frenzy wants to erase distinction until all becomes one
@@dandelyon2796 Dark Soul's endings were also very nihilistic and... almost seemingly worthless in the end, where as Elden Ring's endings give off the feeling that change is inevitable, no matter what it is and how it comes to be. Even with the game's base ending there's change.
Even though it doesn't add up, I love this imagining. The parallels are there for sure when you look at it through a certain lens.
Love it. Yet another example of Dostoevsky steel-manning an opposing argument so well that it becomes incredibly difficult to dispute. I really like how you’re bringing real world philosophy into this! However, only partly because Melina is Elden Ring’s waifu, I’ll have to take her side on this one. Thanks for the great content!
Ranni is the true waifu
@Nook Small cope moon simp
@Nook Small Ranni, Fia, and Goldmask are all decent endings.
Simps
@@vyor8837 Yeah agreed
"The Problem is Life" pretty much sums up the flame of frenzy.
I like how you connected this ideology from in game to something tangible in real life. It would have been cool if you mentioned anti-natalists cause it's such an interesting thing and anti-natalism is basically one on one with what you discussed
I agree. Especially as an antinatalist. I haven't finished Elden Ring, and didn't know what the Flame of Frenzy was outside of an annoying status effect. Now that I understand, I have a deep sympathy with the adherents.
@@Noname72105 You really shouldn't, though. Anti-natalist or not, sympathizing with the forceful implementation of that through the destruction of the world is not a good trait. Those who follow the frenzied flame in-game do not do that out of moral righteousness, they clearly do that out of pure insanity for something terrible that happened to them. Similar for the Dung Eater. You can understand where they are coming from, but not excuse their actions.
@@apolloniuspergus9295 Some of them do. Some of them clearly have thought it through and arrived at a conclusion that I wholeheartedly agree with: Better for nothing to be than anyone to suffer.
@@Noname72105 If you really think that killing everyone is a good or sympathizable ending, I can't convince you of otherwise. You've been inflicted with madness in real life. Just be aware that people who think they can solve problems through destruction is part of the reason why suffering exists.
Being antinatalist, myself, I could chose no other ending other than becoming the lord of frenzied flame. My outlook on the game's world, and more generally life as a whole was represented quite well in this video. I love that Fromsoft puts multiple endings into their games that allow the player to radically change the world in ways that could be seen as bittersweet depending on how you look at it.
I’ve rewatched this video like once a month ever since I got the frenzied flame ending. I like to imagine that the conversation between Ivan and Alyosha as the conversation between the tarnished and Melina at the grace right before the three fingers when Melina tries to convince the tarnished to turn back.
I always thought of the frenzy flame ending to be reverting to before the "big bang" or Aion, or the Japanese creation myth that literally states, "Before the heavens and earth, all was chaos, limitless, without shape or form". I love mythology so I think it's really cool when games create their own mythologies in their world building like Elden ring and FF; it's peek creativity in my opinion. The concept of people worshiping the destruction of all concepts is so interesting; so while it's considered the bad ending, it's probably my favorite.
I like this video concept
This story kind of reminds me of dung eaters questline, torturing people beyond the point of death and infecting their corpses to a point their soul is cursed forcing them to be reincarnated as an omen, forcing all men for the rest of time to atone for the torture of the omen in the sewers of the capital.
They're kind of bizarro mirror reflections of each other. The Frenzied Flame wants it all to end because life is suffering. Dung Eater wants it all to *keep going* because life is suffering, and you can add to the sum total of that suffering.
@@MidlifeCrisisJoe Hey its me again ;). Could this be a reflection of our real world concepts of Nihilism(belief there is no meaning in life) and Absurdism(trying to make our own meaning within life meaninglessness)?
@@ATC43 I have no idea who you are? Sorry. The Frenzied Flame is definitely a reflection in a particular kind of animating nihilism, yes. Though nullificationism is probably a more accurate term, because it's not really positing that life has no meaning, but that whatever meaning to life there is isn't worth the cost of living. I'm genuinely not sure if there's a more specific name for this viewpoint but it would be what most people recognize as nihilism even if I know some philosophy teachers who would disagree with that classification.
But Dung Eater's isn't directly absurdist unless you're getting meta-textual. It's more directly sadistic. But from a metatextual standpoint it's absolutely absurdist since yes it's about creating a kind of negative meaning, but it's also absurd in a direct sense that such a thing came from a character called "The Loathsome Dung Eater."
@@MidlifeCrisisJoe I'm sad I did not leave an impression lol. Anyway, yea I was struggling to think of a term to describe the concept as well which is why I settled on Nihilism. And I agree, sadistically absurd would be a good descriptor for Dung Eater's
i congratulate you on your video idea and i commend you on the execution of it. you posses a very agreeable reading voice.
in attack on titan, two characters discuss the same topic, albeit in a much more superfluous way. it's basically a re-iteration of ivan's viewpoint except almost from the opposite perspective and obviously detached from the monotheistic dogma (especially the prize-reward relation nature of innocent suffering and eternal harmony).
I really love the scene at the end of season 3 where they look out over the water, and Erin looks back with those horrified eyes. “And once we kill all our enemies over there, then will we be free?”
It’s the same idea, the human condition at it’s core is suffering. That cannot be escaped.
Kinda reminds me of The Cabin in the Woods (ENDING SPOILERS FOR THAT MOVIE)
When the two survivors decide to not complete the ritual and let the old gods destroy the world and start over. They basically decide “if you gotta keep sacrificing people to prevent the end of the world, then it’s better to just let it end.”
My heart has grown so tired of the world. It does not seek growth, it's stagnant. We sit adrift in a sea of wonder and stars. Yet we fight for sandcastles ruled by aged children. We create problems where there are none to explain why we can't go out into the vastness. We are cowards hiding in our vices, perhaps it's best we dissappear. And yet I cannot extinguish that faint glow of hope. It flickers still, and so I march on. Hoping it may once again ignite within me.
I was literally just at the part of your podcast episode where you were talking about this video lol. Can't wait to watch it.
expected a counter point, and then it just ended. kinda nice either way i liked the storytelling. though i still find it interesting that in the frenzied flame ending not all is lost as Melina is still there and somehow able to forever chase us with destined death. technically only way to keep Melina interested and simping after you instead. ;-)
We don't know of one.
Unless you get the ending after her sacrifice. Then there's nothing left
You missed the point
@@anomitas not the person that made the comment, but if you understand the point could you explain it? I loosely understand but am confused
@@penguinwolf3330 The point was not to argue for or against the adherents of the Frenzied Flame. Ultimately, whether you believe that life is worth the suffering is an argument of ethics, morality, and aesthetics, outside the realm where logical arguments and rebuttals can sway people with any consistency. The point of reading the passage was for the audience to understand *why* the adherents believe as they do. Why those who think that way in our world think as they do. Convincing you one way or another was never the point, it would be a moot one. You have to experience the thought process yourself, and let your mind arrive at its own conclusions. That's what the passage was for.
they fooled us all by making it the "bad" ending
Seeing the palestine genocide happening, make me feel hopeless, the world feel so bleak, but this video always comfort me idk why, this video make me want to keep on fighting
I don’t think that here Ivan and the Frenzied Flame are articulating the exactly same position. Ivan rejects the idea that harmony can redeem the suffering of the world but this is what the frenzied flame ultimately wants, for everything to return to the harmony of the One. For Ivan there is an irremediable disharmony between disharmony and harmony, or, in the terms of the Frenzied Flame, a division between division and unity. The idea that it could be “made whole” is an affront to his sense of justice. The “whole” cannot make up for the singular fact of the suffering of the innocent.
Babe wake up, new Ratatoskr video just dropped!
AND HE'S TALKING ABOUT THE FRENZIED FLAME!
I’m up
Look up philosophical pessimism, efilism, antinatalism, negative utilitarianism.
The notion that life is a not a good thing and thus its extinction a desirable goal is a thoroughly reasoned philosophical stance that has existed at least as long as recorded history.
This observation is at the core of many religions and the reason they exist is to provide relief from it, first by acknowledging your suffering and then by selling you promises of justice and of continued life after death, preferrably in an idilic state of absolute and everlasting bliss (permanent homeostasis) such as heaven.
We are animals with a deep seated fear of death, so we cling to life despite the fact that it is irrational as life is pointless, full of suffering and irreparable, the highs a farce compared to the lows, evolution is quite literally a meat grinder with no goal, survival just for survival's sake. We are decaying, fragile sacks of flesh thrown into uncaring cosmic brutality.
"Life is an unprofitable episode disturbing the blessed calm of non-existence."
We so desperately and compulsively try to escape our programmed demise that we divorce from reality into all kinds of psychoses like religion and optimism.
All we do our entire lives is to deny reality by substituting it with stories that promise us physical or symbolical transcendence of death or keeping ourselves busy or sedated.
Playing video games for example.
Also look up Terror Management Theory (TMT) and Mind Over Reality Transition (MORT).
This is the real Pandora's Box, the collectively supressed and repressed truth of our existence, the wisdom of Silenus.
Few intellectuals have ever had the balls to truthfully tackle reality since it is nigh unbearable and taboo, tell the apes they're gonna be unavoidably and permanently annihilated, that their nasty, brutish and short existence has been for nothing and they won't take it too well, you are assaulting all of their psychological defenses head on and bringing them to the edge of the abyss, dispelling the inane fantasies which in many cases is all they have to treat their hopeless existential condition.
Great to see this theme in a game of such high profile, "to be or not to be" is really the question and we really don't like the reasoned answer, eating life's dung is easier if we pretend it's chocolate and a great destiny awaits us if we just never give up, which is a monumentally insane belief.
The people that want to end this crap are the cognitively healthy and it is the ones that want to propagate this factually wasteful and pointless phenomenon of life that are either ignorant or insane.
Life cannot be affirmed if all is taken into account, it's utterly condemnable. But this realization creates distress, makes it harder to go on, so we "focus on the positive" which many times we manufacture ourselves (fantasies) because there is not that much to be had, shunning people, such as philosophers, that don't want to play this dissociation game.
And so life keeps propagating itself in a blazing trail of suffering only to arrive nowhere and eventually go extinct when the cosmic structure upholding it will break down.
Why beat around the bush, to allow countless more to be crushed in this tragic machine?
While it's important to recognize the fallen nature of the reality we inhabit, never let your intellectual pursuits kill your soul. True good exists in this reality, and so does redemption and salvation.
There needs to be more literary tie ins in these lore videos, it emphasizes how great the writing in the game is beyond being intentionally ambiguous.
Did you see? What they did to my ancestors? The whole clan, buried alive, Sick, Maddened, Husks of themselves. Have you heard their moans? They're hardly human anymore! They think we worship the Three Fingers? That we called the maddening sickness down upon them?
Well... If that's what they expect from us, then that's what they shall get from us!!
The world of grace and its people should have been content to see us sink between the cracks! But to have intruded upon our solace... Having broken us upon their whims...
I'll never forgive any of you.
That burn... Your eyes...You've inherited the flame of frenzy Oh, that's it... That's what I need...To melt away the curses, suffering, and despair. And the Order, entire. The yellow flame of chaos...
O Three Fingers, throw wide the door. Please, bestow unto me the yellow flame of chaos. A frenzied flame to melt away the all. Divest yourself of everything... And pray to the Lord... To melt away the curses, suffering, and despair. May chaos...take the world.
Cut content from the merchant Kale.
I watched your video for the second time, and it brought me to tears once again. I read The Brothers Karamazov a few years ago, delightfully difficult experience to read through, I did not expect such a bittersweet surprise. This is one outstanding video essay. My best regards.
The philosophy of the frenzy flame is surprisingly… understandable and I don’t know how to feel about that.
I would also like to say that the reading did pull me in and… enlighten me.
"Surely you have seen for yourself… the pain and suffering that fills this world! But fight poison with poison. God is merciful, and so, created the Old One. The Old One will feed upon our souls, and put an end to our tragic realm of existence!"
"You fool. Don't you understand? No one wishes to go on…"
They certainly have a way of expressing the viewpoint in a very kind and caring way despite the grim reality of unmaking the world. It was actually only recently I've started to see a through-line in the series' that seems hopeful as if the beautiful moments are what make it worth it. The mystery, the beauty.
We may be destructive, but we are a vast expanse more creative. Just look at this amazing video taken from just two works of art. 💜
All this high falutoon philo-officezing misses the point.
Fire Good.
Hard take, frenzied flame ending is the beginning of dark souls…the fog ending is the beginning of demon souls and the ranni ending upon the stars in the beginning of bloodbourne
Mission accomplished. At the end of the vid I didn’t just feel the flame of frenzy, I believed in it. Also many thanks for exposing me to the brothers Karamazov. Sounds like a great read
Frenzied Flame best ending.
Absolutely loved this and would love just a deep dive on the other endings and their ideologies. But if this is the only deep dive into the gods = ideologies, it would have been worth it. Great video!
If you were at all intrigued by the writting, please do yourself the favor of reading The Brothers K. It is one of the greatest novels, you will not regret the effort. Personally, I like Crime and Phnishment better, by the same author, and it’s an easier read, but Brothers K is maybe the most influential
Ahh Crime and Punishment. What a brutal book.
That book alone, if understood, will scare you straight. Lol.
The punishment always follows, even if it's your own conscience doing the punishment. Porfirio Petrovich is such a relentless pursuer lol
"Beasts can't be as cruel as men." Orca laughs as it kills a baby dolphin just for fun by throwing it up into the air over and over.
This is why Yura (Shabriri's vessel) offered us, and most certainly Vyke as well, the option to use the flame of frenzy to burn the Erdtree in lieu of our pseudo-maiden Melina. Why force another to suffer when it could be avoided?
How does a mother justify giving life to a child whom she has ultimately sentenced to death?
I have a friend who did the frenzied ending first and it still baffled me. She was like “how was I supposed to know feeding her grapes was bad?”
perhaps by knowing those are not grapes but eyes? xd
flame of frenzy = malice/malal
rot outer god = nurgle
formless mother = khorne
pack it up boys i know the secret to elden ring
i don’t like where this is going.... at least let me get fitted for a chastity belt first
Is Ranni Tzeentch then? And....who is Slaanesh.?
@@Sorrowdusk i guess ranni would be tzeentch, and for slaanesh, i dunno, it would have to do with strong emotions
@@TheEveryDayC Gold mask is slaanesh, seeking that perfection, running around naked, except for a super blingy mask, t-posing on us all.
There's a lot of similarities between the Flame of Frenzy and what Neon Genesis Evangelion calls "Instrumentality", tho in that instance we're not necessarily talking about ending life just ending the concept of "living". Much like in Elden Ring, Instrumentality is described as returning all living being to one unified state. To break down the barriers, the ego, that separates and therefore inherently alienates each individual. To create a state of perfect empathy and understanding since the very concept of "you" wouldn't exist, "No more fractures. No more births".
Given how influential NGE has been on all of japanese media i wouldn't be surprised if Instrumentality plays at least a small part in the inception of the Flame of Frenzy.
This is not lore on the frenzied flame.
This is, and it's absolutely baffling that I'm about to type this phrase, clickbait for a Dostoyevsky work.