Pretty genius design decision when you think about it. It causes you to feel true despair so you can really understand where the Frenzied Flame is coming from. Brilliant! Life was a mistake...
@@ponspectorstillwedie4579 Unless of course you feel that sense of triumph upon succeeding. . . and it's hard to ignore Melina's pleas about the beauty of life.
@@stupidanon5941 I know this is going to make me sound like a douche but I made it on my first trial and wasn't that hard, for me the despair came on that tower on Caelid, that one was my despair
The Hyetta questline always really creeped me out on a deep psychological level. I was listening to the dialogue again and I think I finally understand why. Each thing you are willing to do to Hyetta is grooming you to be comfortable with the destruction that the flame of frenzy would bring. -First thing you do is offer her grapes, probably not understanding what they are. -when you figure out what they are, you can tell her. If you're willing to give her more after you know what they are, it means you are both willing to do something distasteful because she asked, and willing to break her sanity by telling her what they are -if you give her the fingerprint grape, you know full well that you are enabling an addiction, and are comfortable with doing so to satisfy your curiosity. -As the final test, Hyette asks you to burn her with the flame of frenzy. She asks you to un-make her, just as you eventually unmake the world. That's when I realized that Hyetta is a person who literally seduces you into slowly and utterly destroying her. Mind, body, and soul. Going along with it means you slowly sink into depravity and eventually become someone capable of the despicable act of destroying the entire world.
I think the only part that still bothers me is that the 3 fingers doesn’t seem to be a malformed 2 fingers, but rather a separation of what was once the One Great, especially since the 3F is a thumb and two fingers that would match the middle finger and pinky of the 2F. The Greater Will is just that, the part of the One Great that split off to impose its own ideas upon the world. The 3F is the remnant of that and it burns to be reunited again.
It was very good, and went into depth about a lot of stuff I didn’t catch. The problem is, I found the Three Fingers before feeding grapes or really meeting Shabriri in my blind playthrough. I missed so much backstory.
Your conclusion that the three fingers is an aspect of the greater will is really enlightening. And the evidence drawn together to form that opinion is great. I was convinced that the frenzied flame was another outer god, but not anymore
I would even go further and say that greater will is actual universal will that mortals cant comprehend. So they latch on to different god/order that is only part of it. The fact that the player character cant lose grace by any mean except frenzy flame, and even then they still have a way out indicate that whoever grant it to the player have more influence than any outer god.
The main support for this is probably miquella's needle. It specifically says it wards off the meddling of outer gods and can seal the flame of frenzy. Seems to track pretty clearly.
This is what made me think this even before Ratotaskr’s excellent videos on the topic. I just felt like they were the different digits of the same hand
Great video as always! 6:12 I believe Vyke was unable to fully adopt the Frenzied Flame because he did not cast away his armor prior to approaching the Three Fingers. This is why rather than having the prints singed upon his flesh they are instead melted into his armor.
@@4ncientGu150 Well, there was no need to remove it. It's initially a warning, kinda like "fuck around and find out". It initially had a greater meaning, as we get to see Kale's dialogue in the shunning grounds, but even though that was left out, the line about holding grudges still works as a deterrent from killing the merchants.
Great video, but I have a few responses from other lore entries: -The Frenzied Flame is referred to as a disease by multiple sources (Nomad's Ashes / Frenzied's Cookbook / Howl of Shabriri / Shabriri Grape / Note: Frenzied Flame Village). As per the Nomad Ashes, which summons a Nomadic Merchant that uses Frenzied Flame incantations and can be healed by Frenzyflame Stones, the Nomadic Merchant Clan was "entombed in the earth so as to bury the maddening disease that followed them." This means they had to have already been followers of the Frenzied Flame (which is the heretical beliefs they were persecuted for as per their armour set), even if they didn't know about the Three Fingers specifically or thought their madness was different from the Three Fingers, as per Kale's cut dialogue. -The "Lord of Frenzied Flame" taking over the player at the end could also be the Three Fingers. The Note: Lord of Frenzied Flame item refers to the Three Fingers as the Lord of Frenzied Flame, "who holds us in thrall." The "us", the author of the note, is unclear, possibly the Clan of Nomadic Merchants since you buy the note from one of them, but it could be that the merchants, Shabriri, Hyetta, Vyke and anyone else who comes to host the Frenzied Flame becomes thrall to the Three Fingers. This is in keeping with the edict of "melt it all down until all is one"--everyone who hosts the Frenzied Flame effectively becomes a part of the Three Fingers, a part of a single entity. They become one. -This is entirely speculation on my part but it's a continuation of your theory that the Three Fingers are a vassal of the Greater Will. Having the Three Fingers be a vassal (perhaps a rebellious one) of the Greater Will might explain why it is 3 fingers of the 5 we naturally presume, while the Two Fingers is the remaining 2 of that 5, and why both the Three and Two look heavily damaged and malformed. We see no physical manifestation of the Greater Will, only the Fingers which carry out / rebel against its will, just like my fingers typing the letters in this comment, translating my thoughts into language. We know the Two Fingers serve that function; they are essentially the hand of the Greater Will. Perhaps the Three Fingers are also that hand, and the reason they and the Two separated and damaged is because the Greater Will itself is conflicted. The Greater Will feels that it made a mistake, because the world it created is full of beauty yet also full of suffering, but it's torn on whether to keep trying to patch things up (Two Fingers / Elden Ring / Order) or to tear the whole thing down and start over (Three Fingers / Frenzied Flame)--and thus its hand is literally torn, ripped apart into Two and Three. It's like a writer editing their manuscript, unable to shake this burning, writhing feeling that no matter how many changes they make there's still a greater flaw underlying the whole narrative, yet unable to bring themselves to destroy their work.
Could it be that Melina is talking about Shabriri when she's referring to the lord of frenzy ? That it is Shabriri she is promising to deliver destined death and not 'us' ? - If it is indeed Shabriri it also ties in with the fact how Shabriri doesn't really die and possesses dead bodies and thus avoiding the 'cycle' of destined death
I like this and agree that would make sense. I do also wonder if Melina's dialogue about being "burned and bodiless" and her extreme dissent for anything related to Flame of Frenzy has something to do with this.
The only problem I see with this reasoning is that she also tells us she will kill us before we burn our body in the Forge of the Giants, and in that moment we definitely are ourselves and not Shabriri
@@Sebascadpi in the first instance she is referring to us. She seems to kill us before gaining access to the erdtree, and unleashing the flame of frenzy. At the erdtree, we clearly die, and the manifestation of the frenzied flame takes over. After this, Melina has her dialogue about delivering destined death.
Im so glad you connected the Crucible/Greater Will/Flame of Frenzy together. I felt the same way when I first heard Hyetta's dialogue about there being "One Great" before things splintered. This theory also just so much sense on the surface level. 5 Fingers split into 2 and 3. The 2 Fingers represent the desire for Order when presented with Life's many disparities and the 3 fingers represent the rejection of those disparities and a desire to return the chaos of undefined existence. Its also interesting how this juxtaposes Marika's shattering and the spreading of the Great Runes which make up the Elden Ring. There was once order in The Lands Between and then there was chaos and disparity after The Shattering. Also how Radagon wishes to "be complete" by learning Sorcery and Incantations. Could that be a small part of the Greater Will manifesting itself through his pull towards regression, only in a different way from the FoF? Anyway another great video dude, and I hope this sets a basis for how people view this part of the lore moving forward. You're giving me Redgrave from Bloodborne times with these spot on connections and theories.
@@ATC43 He tweeted about ER atleast 1 time if i recall correctly, i'm pretty sure he's having fun! It's rather unlikely that he'll ever comeback :( Besides, there is too many lore content creators out there now.
Im glad you took an interest in this topic specifically. I got the flame ending first run through and vyke's armor description echoed true for me because i for no reason decided to go to the sewers right before the final boss gauntlet, which it feels like the game is beckoning you to do by having the sewer entrance right there.
Both in lore and gameplay-wise, I love The Flame of Frenzy. The Frenzy incantations have some of the most interesting animations and properties. And of course, landing Inescapable Frenzy on someone is a huge dopamine boost. Also I think that The Flame of Frenzy and Greater Will were once one entity, two halves. One eternally yearning for distinction and order. One eternally yearning for melding and chaos.
Strangley I would interpret the desire for chaos to be a yerning for order. Once everything is melded, everything becomes the same. As is mentioned in the game by Hyetta, the reason why the three fingers has an agenda against the greater will is because of the inconsistencies created by the greater will, namely that life isn't as orderly as people would like to say it is, and by destroying everything, you are actually creating a world that is more orderly than what the great will envisioned.
Flame of Frenzy seems to actually hates chaos,basically chaos is what caused these indifferences and he wants to get back to where everything was just one thing. The greater will deal with chaos by divinding and distinguishing while the FoF burns everything so everything is the same,ash.
I think a great argument for the flame of frenzy being drawn by despair is the few NPC’s who are related to it, Hyetta and Shabriri. They both take over the bodies of those who have died and experienced despair, Hyetta emerging only after Irina was killed and her father finds her body, and Shabriri emerging in the body of Yura, after we assist him to kill Eleonora, someone who he once loved. Shabriri probably didn’t get Yura’s body by asking nicely.
@@Knoloaify I think Hyetta is supposed to be met after Irina’s death, a lot of context leads me to believe they are the same, since they both wear a dress with blood stained on it, and both have the same voice actor. Plus you usually explore the Weeping Pennisula before ever fighting Godrick.
@@Knoloaify I See that point and I feel that it’s a game issue of conflicting quest lines because they obviously want to tell us they are the same person. Maybe Irina never actually died and joined the Frenzy Flame village since that’s also on the weeping pennisula.
Hm, i dont think that the three fingers are some kind of malformed form of the two fingers, but rather that they are both part of a greater whole, the entire hand. What makes me thinl that way, is that the three fingers consist of the thumb, the middle finger and the pinky finger. Whereas the two fingers seem to consist of the index finger and the ringfinger, thus both of them together would build a full hand. This thought of course ignored the fact, that there are multiple 2 fingers but (as far as we know) only one 3 fingers. One might explain that away by speculating, that the two fingers, we find throughout the lands between are each just copy of the original two fingers. Lastly i want to state, that if the 2 and 3 fingers build a full hand together, this might be a neat metaphor for life and existance having a duality of pain and pleasure, however this would at the same time be a statement that existance is rather pain thn pleasure, considering that the whole hand is 3 parts agony and only 2 parts joy. Well anywhay thanks for reading my maddened ramblings!
I believe the two fingers were the middle and ring finger, based off the height of each fingers and the distance between them. The 3 fingers were made of the index, thumb and the pinky finger of the hand.
Perhaps the two halves of a greater whole analogy here could represent the nature of the Greater Will as it embodies both the laws of causality and regression. That is to say the Greater Will is the common source that set about the creation of all things from the Crucible (and thus is the thing that all things wish to become once more and why they all yearn to eternally converge) and because of that all things share a common relation to each other (regardless of how far detached they may be in a chain of relations).
These videos are so good. This is exactly the kind of lore content I was looking for. Ive been looking at some of the many(too many) lore videos going up since release, and most have very odd interpretations that really lack anything insightful. Your videos seem to lean heavily into what is being represented thematically, and what the lore is actually trying to convey-- and I really appreciate it.
Another important quality of a crucible is that it melts away imperfections. The heating of metal erases and removes impurities. The frenzied flame's will to me seems to, ironically, not really be "chaos" as the name suggests, but a sort of "one-ness" in the form of equalization through the destruction and removal of all outlying and complex "impurities". Perhaps the chaos in Lord of Chaos refers less to the outcome of the burning of everything as chaotic and moreso the chaotic and intense means by which this grand equalization is accomplished, through chaotic flame, the burning and melting of everything before the resolution of all as one once again.
Elden Ring doesn't just use the term as meaning destruction like a lot of modern fantasy does, it uses the term in a traditional sense. "Chaos" is a mythological motif of the primordial state of the universe, which a creator deity separates into heaven/earth/life etc. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony) I'll highlight this passage from Metamorphoses by Ovid: "Before the ocean and the earth appeared- before the skies had overspread them all- the face of Nature in a vast expanse was naught but Chaos uniformly waste. It was a rude and undeveloped mass, that nothing made except a ponderous weight; and all discordant elements confused, were there congested in a shapeless heap." Part of why the lore of Elden Ring is so effective is because Miyazaki/Fromsoft are clearly aware of mythological conventions, not just modern fantasy.
Personally, I have always thought of the greater will as one hand: where the two fingers represents order and the three representing its antithesis: chaos. The conflict taking place between the frenzied flame and the golden order is one of reunification
I think a possible reason why Vyke couldn't fully accept the flame of frenzy was because he (as shown in some promotional material) was wearing armor, which reads on the item description, that it is "Iron armor singed and blistered by fingers." This connects to the scene where Hyetta insists that you "divest yourself of all possessions", possibly as a philosophical way of saying to not let your material possessions so that you will be able to destroy/abandon them. Really like the video :)
Someone pointed out how the nomads' instrument are decorated with a hand. I wonder if that came from some form of Crucible worship, which would have already put the nomads on the margins of society and would have made Shabriri's slander that much more effective.
The Flame of Frenzy has always reminded of The End of Evangelion, where powerful elites essentially bring about the end of humanity by returning everyone to the primordial soup whence we came. People are uncomfortable, living separately and in agony, and with the return of the angels, we can break down the barriers that separate our consciousness and become one. So in a giant wave of suspiciously orange fluid, all of humanity is swept away and attempts to become one. Where our protagonist, Shinji, makes the ultimate decision as to whether or not a life pain and separate existence, that is to say; existing alongside people, is worth living. -[[I'm not an expert on anything Evangelion, please don't fucking roast me please]]- The similarities of the Flame of Frenzy and this weird orange primordial soup from Evangelion are just fascinating to me and I can't help but wonder if it's on purpose. Ending pain and suffering, breaking down that which divides us, and uh... being orange... just food for thought.
The Flame of Frenzy is me most Dark Souls thing in Elden Ring you can find. As it means an end for everything, and in a very buddhist manner, the end of suffering. The curse of life ends there. So i guess it´s only natural to see similarities to The End of Evangelion. No more living in fear, no more feeling power- and meaningless in a world filled with beeings way larger than any normal individual could aspire to ever be. But there is beauty to be found in that struggle for meaning, or is there not?
Regarding the three fingers, I don't think it's a coincidence that a human hand has five digits and two + three makes five. I like to think that the Three Fingers symbolize that desire to reunify into the One Great, especially with the Two Fingers.
Given the abstract and piecemeal qualities of FromSoft's storytelling, I've always found it useful to rely on symbolism and probable metaphor as additional guide to piece together what is being said. Instead of using the story to extrapolate the thematics, I use the thematics to extrapolate the story. If there is one thing, that to me, makes an immediate and strong case for the three fingers being a facet of the greater will it is the following. A hand has long been used as a symbol for gods (hands are the power that moves things, after all). And at the risk of stating the obvious, hands have five fingers. It seems baked into the symbolism that the three fingers and the two fingers represent two different facets of a singular whole.
Agreed. From the very start, once I heard about the two fingers I assumed there would be at least three more. I was actually surprised when the three were just in one other entity and not three separate fingers, but it seemed obvious that if they were going for all these finger/hand allusions some sense of the wholeness of a hand would be necessary.
If I remember correctly I read that there was a cut quest and ending about combining the 3 fingers and 2 fingers but I'm not entirely sure. I will respond with a link if I can find the evidence
Amazing collection of info! wanted to add, the people infected with frenzy and bent backwards - are actually shaped like the 3 fingers. if you look at it it looks like the 3 fingers that depart the flame of frenzy on the player (at 1:35)
I wish you mentioned how trigger-happy the Frenzied Flame and it's envoys are with causing suffering upon others, despite their entire cause being based on life not being worth the pain it brings. Their only way of spreading their cause is through madness, and bringing people to such a deplorable state that they come to the Frenzied Flame's conclusion, and turning them into it's envoys. It seemed that though the Frenzied Flame hates the suffering brought upon by the Greater Will, it's not shy to be the cause of a very considerable part of it. The only ones who come to the conclusion of life not being worth it are the ones inflicted with the unspeakable madness, no one's come to such a conclusion but the ones enthralled by the Three Fingers and their fiery scorching flame. Perhaps the Flame of Frenzy is very much the one to create the cause for it's righteous fight against all existence.
Still even without the Frenzied Flame, life would still be pretty shit for the average person in the Lands Between, but it's still worth thinking about how unabashed the Three Fingers are with spreading it's madness. Maybe it's a "the ends justify the means" type of deal, need to go through a lot of pain it to end it all.
It could be as such if the Lord of Frenzy could end it all in the first place. In your ending analysis you only analysed the first scene with the tarnished inside the Erdtree, yet you didn't mention the second scenery in the capital of ash. From what I saw it was less of a "everything is burned back to the ashes it came from" and more like everything's a bit scorched and... there's a giant Flame of Frenzy where the Erdtree used to be. Just like the flame atop the tower in Liurnia, spreading madness and the flame throughout all the Lands Between, people all the way up to Limgrave and Caelid feel the roaring madness in the back of their eyes and screaming in pain. This scene doesn't suggest to me that it all returns to nothing, more so that now the Frenzied Flame is Lord, it's enthralled everyone in it's suffering now inescapable (unless you're underground).
Just like how the message of the Flame was spread through madness at the beginning of your journey, you've now become it's greatest envoy and have spread even more suffering throughout all the Lands Between. Just like how Shabriri is a notorious liar and a devious trickster so is his god, and in your foolishness you've been tricked and now you've doomed us all to eternal suffering, a kind of living hell. I don't think the solution to burn it all and incinerate all that divides and distinguishes is even possible for such an entity to entail, too good to be true and certainly an enthralling concept for someone who's life is ruled by unendurable pain and suffering. Anyway this is what I got from the last ending scene and I'm really really sorry lol
I don't believe all that I've said was in Miyazaki's or GRRM's creative vision when writing about the Flame of Frenzy but I think there's at least a grain of truth to it, at least in the first comment of mine. At the very least this is really fun to talk about and theorize and all that jazz, I'm going to sleep now 😴
@@thethethehthehthe Yeah Caelid doesn't have much info on what it's role was before the rot, mostly because it's identity is shaped so much by the rot and it being a horrible place to live in, so I expect that a DLC like what you speak of to do wonders for Caelid and make it 10 times more authentic than it is
I think it's worth mentioning that Shabriri is a liar when he says that by accepting the flame of frenzy your maiden will be spared- because if you accept the flame Melina is no longer your maiden, Hyetta is. And if you complete Hyetta's questline you see that she is set ablaze and becomes ashes just like how Melina would be if you used her as kindling. I think this shows that you still sacrifice a maiden to burn the erdtree regardless of the path you take. Maybe I'm wrong but its worth discussing I think.
I feel that Hyetta "probably" taking Irina's body or her image is very fitting to her character. Irina is similar to the children of the story because she is presented as a very innocent person. She only wants to be with her father, and she is murdered before they can reunite. Then Hyetta takes her body and begins to adopt this point of view that life is utterly suffering and the Greater Will made a mistake by creating life.
Way late to the video, but I wanted to add a couple of tidbits. First is that long life through the removal of destined death is also major reason for the rise of madness. A cut character Gilbert says as much (see Sekiro Dubi's documentary). But we also have the demigods who are specifically long lived and symbolize madness in through various means: - Godrick: inferiority complex & grafting - Radahn: hubris & cannibalism - Ranni: isolation & conspiracy - Morgott: self-loathing & zealotry - Mohg: delusions & hedonism - Malenia: loss & grief - Miquella: body dysmorphia & failure The central point here is that perhaps the game is trying to say that these sorts of flaws will appear in time, and thus destined (natural) death used to be the solution by limiting our time in the Lands Between. Therefore, the game leads us to believe that the Frenzy ending is a step too far because reinstalling destined death would solve the problem without also taking away life's beauty like Melina tells us. It's even more fitting that she vows to deliver destined death upon us in that ending. My second point was that although I agree that we the Tarnished die in a way at that point in the Frenzy ending, it may not be so clear cut. We are inhabited by the FoF before that point and still capable of agency, we're already doing the 3F's bidding of our own accord. It has no requirement to replace us because we are a powerful asset. What it needs is a new vessel to bring about its vision. Vessels of gods skirt this blurry line of agency already. It's hard to say where one begins and the other ends, and they are called gods and queens at the same time. It seems unlikely that the Elden Beast could have achieved what Marika did without inhabiting her, nor is it likely that she is speaking 100% as herself or as the Greater Will in the echoes we hear through Melina. It seems clear that there was a schism between Marika and the Golden Order. Now the Order isn't the Will, but if the Will is an embodiment of collective thought and willpower, then the Order would likely still manifest through it in some ways that Marika didn't agree with. The fact that she/Radagon tried to both shatter and put back together the Elden Ring indicates that a vessel can have individual motives from their god. All that to say: to me it's more like we and the FoF are sharing our body. Unlike the great snake which seeks to consume all, the Flame of Frenzy seeks to meld all things together as one. Cheers and thanks if you took the time to read!
I've long since believed the Three Fingers and Two Fingers were both connected to the Greater Will, if for no other reason than just they would join to be five fingers. It's surface level, sure, but I've always found it odd that it's Two Fingers. Or why fingers at all, but why two? Then there's the Hyetta's talk of everything coming from one thing, and then suddenly there were multiple. Finally, the Three Fingers could just be malformed Two Fingers, but the way they're shaped, the way they GRIP (something the Two Fingers could never do, by the way), suggests one of the fingers is a thumb. Next I'd look at the Merchants, and the fact they travel with a stick to play music with (dunno what it's called), that's capped with a hand. Perhaps their heretical belief was that the Two Fingers are just part of a whole? Again, mostly surface level , but it's what I've been operating on.
Very interesting observation on the stick with the hand on it! Perhaps the Great Caravan were worshippers of the One Great and thus worshipped the hand, the three and two fingers put together. Which might also be why they were called the “Great” Caravan.
I think that Vyke was unable to inherit the flame because he didn't take off his armor when the Three Fingers grasped him. It would explain why his armor is burned. Edit: Oh and another thing... You . mentioned the 3 fingers are malformed 2 fingers. Take a look at the 4 toed fowl foot item, it says 3 digits are an omen of bad luck!
Inheriting the frenzied flame, saving Melina, then killing Placidusax and curing myself of the frenzy flame was the most satisfying thing ever. Felt like I'd tricked the three fingers and shabriri.
Fromsoft games rats are always closely associated with humanity. In ds1 they drop humanity and wherever humanity is rats are there to follow. Only humanity can be inflicted by frenzy and they are probably closely enough associated to get it. Just a guess
There’s probably lots of death in locations with a lot of frenzied flame madness going around. The rats eat the corpses of those afflicted and then get inflicted by the frenzied flame themselves.
I was wondering last night going through the sewers that maybe when they locked the Three Fingers away, the affliction was somehow spread by the rats in the sewers, and then to the Lands Between via more rats, and the Merchants got blamed for it.
I love your videos man! I think your theory is spot on! Just one thing I interprete slightly different is that although the flame of frenzy and the greater will started out as one entity, it does appear that they became sperate entities with separate consciousness, wills, and desires along the way. It also makes me wonder if all outer gods and life started out as one god head. If so each outer god could represent a different body part like the fingers, but I'm just spitballing theories haha.
With all of the grafting of limbs that went on, I think it's also interesting to consider the possibility that the three fingers are actually man-made. But this was another great video. Not that I've come to expect any less. Your finely articulated research does not go unappreciated. Keep up the great work!
Just wanted to say I immensely enjoyed your last video and this one as well. I’ve been contemplating vyke’s story all day and this came at a perfect time. So lemme share my current theory: there are two versions of vyke in the game, Festering Fingerprint Vyke and Vyke, Knight of the Roundtable (i’m going to abbreviate those names). So FFV is a red phantom invader with a name unlike most invaders. He is not a bloody finger and he is not a recusant. The other invaders i can think of with unique names are the “tarnished-eater”, the inquisitor, and millicent. I think millicent is the proper invader to compare since they are both afflicted by a disease. Millicent’s phantom seems to be a former version of herself, probably due to her decaying mind clinging to her healthy days fighting in the war. In this same way i believe FFV is an invading phantom of Vyke’s mind recalling his madness and the atrocity he committed, the murder of his maiden. I believe that VKotR is the real Vyke and that somehow his madness had been overcome, be it before or after he was imprisoned. I really wanna know who imprisoned him and why his maiden lies in that particular church…anyway those are my thoughts. Thanks for readin
Elden Rings lore flies right over my head despite my attempt to get into it. I will say, by the end of this game, I resonated most with the frenzied flame ending. There's nothing worth saving in this world, it's all awful.
thankyou for the lore video. i think you are honestly the best Elden Ring lore content creator at this stage (vaati 'waiting for the other lore youtubers to perfect the theories' btfo). absolutely you are the most well spoken and astute. I'd be very interested in your lore musings on The Dung Eater. I have done quite some research and come to my own theories and conclusions, but having 'gotten down to the bottom of it' with his ethos and motivations so to speak, I've found that looking into the Flame of Frenzy offers a lot of what i feel is missing from the Dung Eater lore, in terms of having a satisfactory explanation/theoretical basis. I see Dung Eater's ending and goals as the 'lowercase n' nihilism choice (or more accurately the pessimist ending), that is to say it is overly micro and personal in its focus and scope ("i have known pure suffering, i see the suffering in omens, people think omens are the worst, i love omens as i see my reviled suffering in them, its all shit anyway so lets make everyone omens and see if they still think theyre the worst lol") whereas the Flame of Frenzy is 'uppercase N' Nihilism ("the suffering of this world outweighs the positives of beauty and personal experience"). perhaps i am missing a key part of the Dung Eater's motivations, but at this stage having trawled through all of the reddit/youtube comment discussions around this, i'm fairly sure there isn't a piece of an in-game dung eater related evidence that i am not aware of.
I've held this theory for quite a while now. The flame causes regression and one-ness, and one of the tenants of the golden order is specifically this. Too much to be a coincidence - there must be a connection. I wonder if this kind of thinking can be applied to the great flame of the giants as well.
Playing the kingsfield main menu theme for a dark lore exploration video? Here, have my like ! Btw, Vyke was apparently not lacking but ill prepared. We got zombie Hyetta to explain we gotta strip down, I think Vyke was likely alone, hence had no one to tell him. Explains his burnt armor.
Thank you for touching on the possibility that the Three Fingers are not serving a completely separate Outer God. Your theory makes much more sense to me.
I had never thought to connect the Three Fingers to the Crucible but the Imagey really makes sense. It also leaves me with even more questions about the timeline of events and when the Greater Will came to the Lands Between.
The line about the Caravan folk living 'in the cracks' is heartbreaking. It depicts a world of people who strive for perfect order that cannot comprehend that there may be people who live outside of that order who are capable of living in harmony with it. It makes sense that it is this attitude that invokes the frenzied flame; order grows to the point where it becomes unbearable, and some force must push back.
I very much agree with your analysis. In my playthrough I felt that the lore and interaction with Frenzy touched individuals finalized by the interaction with Shabriri felt like they were all connected, like they were already melted back together as one. I attacked Shabriri because of this after I heard all his dialog. He felt repugnant to me, like a cancerous tumor that stole an honorable friend's life, wearing Yura as he did. I think you hit the reality right on the money of what the 3 fingers and Shabriri are.
I really like the notion that the player character dies as they approach Marika, to be controlled by Shabriri, it's a fun idea to imagine your character scrambling for Miquella's needle to ward away the influence as they become aware they're doomed otherwise. Also yeah, I 100% agree with the idea that the Three Fingers are aspects of the Greater Will rather than a distinct outer god. I mean it makes sense, two and three fingers together make a whole hand. It sounds likely to me that in the same way Death was removed from the natural order of life, the fingers were separated in order to remove the notion of chaos from the Order. And in more technical aspects, there are no mentions of the Three Fingers being linked to an outer god, and even more condemning as you mentioned is Hyetta's dialogue, linking them to the Greater Will. Great points overall !
My understanding of why the three and two fingers is that they might represent quite literal parts of a whole. Two fingers plus three makes for a complete hand. The hand of a greater will, if you will. Why the three for chaos and two for order? I think this again might illustrate how chaos and suffering seem bigger to us than order and solace.
The deepest horror of the frenzied flame is not the depravity of Shabiri, the living death of the village, or the corruption of Hyetta, but that it is the right path to take. May chaos take the world.
Nicely put video, cheers...i am going for the lord of frenzy ending for my first play through ...did not met Sabriri cause i was touched by the tree fingers prior to the giants mountain tops. He just invaded me there. I am gonna pretend its all "my choice" for the last cinematic. I loved Melinas commentary about life prior and after being grasped by the three fingers. Masterpiece of a game and your videos do the game justice. Thank you for your worship!
the idea that Shabriri just takes our body at the end makes quite a lot of sense (with him screaming "MAY CHAOS TAKE THE WORLD" when meeting us even when we are yet to get the flame of frenzy, doesnt strike me as a guy who would be subtle in showing his joy)
My theory on Vyke is that he wanted to save his Maiden, but she rejected him in the same way that Melina rejected us if we chose that path, so she killed _herself_ in protest, or, if we want to get darker, _he_ killed her in rage at her rejection, and in any case he abandoned his quest because he could no longer save her, and just stayed to guard her body for eternity.
Another indication that the flame of frenzy stems from the Greater Will (or the one great) is how all frenzy incantations scale exclusively off the Faith stat.
The form/motifs of the Golden Order and the Frenzied Flame also seem related to the idea of the Crucible, with the gold being the substance melted/purified by the flame. Perhaps Marika's banishment of the Godefroy/the Tarnished and want for them to struggle to develop and observe their growth is just a microcosm or echo of the Great One/Greater Will wanting to be purified by splitting the Flame off and providing a test of itself.
an interesting feature to note is that the two fingers line up perfectly on the palm where the three fingers have space for a middle and ring finger, which visually hints to and reinforces the connection as different parts of the greater will
Really compelling story and it's why I was drawn to that ending even though it's the most depressing or "bad" ending. Given what I, the tarnished character learns, the lands between seem irreparable. Then Shabriri convinces you to sacrifice yourself, and it makes you feel better about doing it. The responsibility to end it all should fall on you and you alone.
I would add that Melina's lines of dialogue about the Flame of Frenzy reinforce the idea that she is an agent of Destined Death, if not Death incarnate. If you become Lord of Chaos, the concepts of life and death become meaningless since everything is one again. When she says that there's beauty in life and births, I genuinely think she is also deceiving you, because what she actually means is that without life, there can be no death at all, which is even worse than merely expunging the rune of death from the Elden Ring. In other words, she is more worried about the absence of Death as a consequence of the absence of life, rather than being worried about the absence of life in itself.
Here's a couple of things about Farum Azula and the lore found there that I think actually point to the Three Fingers and Two Fingers having once been one entity. Specifically the following. 1. Dragonlord Placidusax was somehow an Elden Lord prior to the Erdtree, and had 4 heads and 1 tail which is unique even for an Ancient Dragon. When we fight him, two of his heads and most of his tail are destroyed, leaving only 2 heads. This, combined with the fact that the god of the dragons "Disappeared" leads me to think that god was the One Great, all 5 fingers, and when Farum Azula was destroyed somehow the One Great split and Placidusax is awaiting the fingers coming together again, something that will likely never happen. 2. The larger Elden Ring reliefs. Throughout Farum Azula you can find reliefs that look like the Elden Ring, but much larger with what look like additional runes. This could represent the first "Shattering" of the Elden Ring (the Greater Will) where many runes were displaced or lost, leading to the rise of other Demigods like the Gloam Eyed Queen, each trying to be directed by the Two Fingers of the Greater Will. 3. The weapon Cinquedea is named after a real Italian weapon that was a sword with a broad blade roughly 5 fingers across, thus the name Cinquedea or 5 Fingers. This weapon's flavor text states that the 5 finger design is representative of the gift of intelligence given to the Beastmen, the same Beastmen that were clerics of Farum Azula, the same Beastmen that seem to be the basis for each Shadow that the Two Fingers sends to "help" their Empyreans. It's likely they were granted intelligence by the Greater Will of the time and fashioned the 5 finger blade in honor of their god.
Something about your thumbnail text reminded me of Miriel's text when you give him a spellbook: Heresy is not native to the world; it is but a contrivance. All things can be conjoined. The secret vassal of the Frenzied Flame... Miriel, Pastor of Vows.
In terms of how Shabriri got hold of Bloody Finger Hunter Yura‘s body, if you follow Yura‘s questline, you‘ll notice that Yura is feeling unwell. I think it‘s on the Bridge to the Academy of Raya Lucaria, after you help him defeat the Ravenmount Assassin where he states „Wretched worms, leave me be…“. An indication perhaps, that he has been eating Shabriri Grapes.
I wanted to note on the flame of frenzy->crucible comparison, the crucible knights set mention that their association with chaos is what had them lose favor. And in addition the point that a crucible needs a flame to function. Both of which point further to the association
I feel like Melina addressing the player at the end of the frenzy ending doesn’t really hit the same way if the player dies upon kicking off the end of the world. What I’m wondering is how does the Lord of Frenzy or Melina still exist if the universe has been burned away? What else survived the flame?
I see no evidence that everything has been burned away. None of the Eldritch Gods have been shown to have such global power, so why would the Frenzied Flame be any different. We are, more likely, going on a long march to burn it all away. Furthermore, the Flame doesn't seem to persist as Melina picks up the Whistle from a place where the player, as Lord of Frenzied Flame, had to have been previously. So Melina and lots of others can easily have survived by being somewhere else. And burning the universe, which would include all other Eldritch Gods, seems like a... long term goal at best.
personally i dont find it unreasonable to think that the flame of frenzy's consumption of the world isnt instant, clearly the erdtree takes a couple seconds to start flaring up so who knows how long it would take to consume the lands between (but probably not more than a couple hours)? Maybe melina is trying to stop this from continuing before she too dies? As for the lord of frenzied flame I assume they're a martyr that has to suffer the pain of wielding the flame of frenzy or something to grant an end to the suffering of everything else. keep in mind this is all baseless
The lord of frenzy is an outer/elder god just like the Elden Beast. Two Fingers represents the Elden Beast and order, like some people believe the Pope might represent the Christian God in real life. Three Fingers represents the Lord of Frenzy who is another god. They exist for the most part outside, and only physically manifest in some circumstances. At the end of the game we force the Elden Beast to manifest by killing Radagon. Theoretically there might be a way to get the Lord of Frenzy to manifest, but there is no way to do it in game. Also, I really don’t think anything survived the flame besides the outer gods themselves. It takes time to burn everything. Fires spread over time. Nothing survived by the end. The horror of that ending is that the world slowly burns into nothing, and all you can do is watch as everyone around you dies.
A few things: As to Vyke and him protecting his finger maiden in the church of inhibition, it's definitely a maiden at least. Aside from the outfit she's wearing, one other bit of confirmation is that for Varre's quest you need a Finger Maiden's blood on a cloth and the only two possible options in the game are that Maiden in the church or one all the way at the start of the Chapel of Anticipation where you started the game (from presumably the Maiden that was to be the player's but who died waiting). As to your interpretation of the 3 Fingers, I think it's strong, but there's something you should also consider that you said yourself - those who follow the frenzied Flame are liars and they know how to possess bodies. Hyetta is a form of this as well, as Hyetta has possessed Irina of Morne's body from after she died (she won't appear until Irina dies in her quest and Edgar is sent onto his vengeance). So one other possibility is that the 3 fingers represented some other aspect of the greater will, but were slain by the fingerslayer blade, then possessed by the Flame of Frenzy, and in turn, the player once those fingers embrace the player (since after they disintegrate). That would make the Flame of Frenzy still some form of an Outer God, but one so powerful as to possess divine fingers of the Greater Will.
You can go around the side of Castle Stormveil and meet Hyetta before ever talking to Irina,then you can do Irina's quest. Maybe the intention was to make Hyetta like Shabriri at one point, but no longer.
@@briggy4359 Except no, that's not true. Go ahead and try it. Start a new game, go to the third grace to pick up Torrent, and go to where Hyetta first appears using the the workaround path past Stormveil. She won't be there. Not even after a reload of the grace once you're warped to Roundtable hold.
I wonder if they were planning to do something with Melina if you are able to acquire Miquella’s needle. It felt really strange to go through all that effort to spare her, and then to never see her again.
I've only ever done the flame of frenzy ending for all my playthroughs soley because i feel horrible for the merchants, all the ones we meet are friendly and generally well mannered, they've been dealt a great injustice by the world, and for that, I will incinerate the world as punishment for my bros
If it only affected The Lands Between, i’d find this ending more appealing. Getting revenge for the merchants might feel good (though none of them ever actually say they want revenge AFAIK) it comes at the cost of presumably the whole world. Zorayas included. That cannot stand.
I like to think when the frenzied flame ending happens all the trapped ones under Lyndell break free and help burn the lands between and punish those who trapped them long ago with help from the frenzied flame
the way hyetta talks, the frenzy ending sounds like the “reversion to a primordial state”. and yes memes aside 2+3 = 5. which further implies that the 2 and 3 hands aren’t opposed by fragments of a whole
Every time I hear about another cut quest, I get a little salty, because they all seem so good! I really hope they keep adding more content like they did with that first update, I don't want it to all be forgotten...
Love the content 😊 I'm so glad to get more explanation... but if you had the time, something like this vid combined with the last one is my preference. I understand you put a lot of work into your editing, productive, and writing and lengthy videos might not be practical (or worth it, with the way ad revenue works), and I'm happy with what we get.
I really like the conjecture that the Three Fingers are closely tied to the Greater Will, instead of being a separate outer god and entity like the others mentioned (the Formless Mother, the Moon and Stars potentially, the God of Rot etc.), I think it makes a lot of sense going off what Hyetta states and the shared imagery of the fingers. If I were to push a theory that delves into further speculation regarding the shared origin of the fingers, and the schism that caused the ideological divide between them from ancient times, my guess is that it somehow relates to the prior age of antiquity when the civilization of Farum Azula prospered, under the dragons and the very advanced beastmen. I think that this civilization was actually tied to the Greater Will as well, since Placidusax is stated as being a previous Elden Lord from the age before the Erdtree's advent and hegemony. Furthermore, I believe that the symbol of the FIVE fingers was related to the Greater Will's power and control, its authority over that world before it apparently left or faded. The Cinquedea may furnish some evidence: "The design celebrates a beast's five fingers, symbolic of the intelligence once granted upon their kind." Furthermore, it is beastly shadows that act as regulators of the Two Finger's will for Empyreans, such as Maliketh, Blaidd and maybe even Serosh for Elden Lords too. Whatever cataclysm caused the fall of Farum Azula may have precipitated the schism in ideology that led to a split between the two and three fingers that used to be a unified five, due to the initial fracturing of the world and its aftermath? It may be that the Great Tree and its Crucible of life that predated the Erdtree was the initial world tree of power from that epoch as well, perhaps? Either way, just some food for thought, I wanted to try and link your theories and speculation on the Flame of Frenzy with my own theories relating to how Farum Azula was intertwined with the lore of the Greater Will. Great video as always, well done dude!
I wonder if the fracturing that took place with the One Great has something of a double meaning. Like a bone fracture? The 5 fingered "hand of god" breaking into the Two and Three Fingers. The Fingerslayer Blade is stained with blood, suggesting that the Eternal City have already used it to slay Fingers. Could this have been what caused the fracture of the One Great? Could this have been the high treason committed by the Eternal City? Thanks for another dope video.
I could have sworn there was dialogue that directly states that the three fingers came from the greater will. I thought maybe it was something enia said but I just looked and can't seem to find it so maybe I'm mistaken. Im probably not the first to say this but the flame of frenzy gives me a lot of neon genesis evangelion vibes. Its a very popular anime and i would not be shocked to find that miyazaki knows of it. If you don't know what its about I'll quickly go over whats relevant to the discussion. Its a similar dilemma but focuses much more on interpersonal relationships. The main character struggles with relating to people and is presented with a choice to keep struggling because of the potential joy that comes from interacting with other human beings or to allow all humanity to become one. He would never feel the pain of being misunderstood or rejected again but he would also never feel the joy that other people can bring into your life. I get the feeling it wouldnt be great it wouldnt be horrible it would just be kinda okay... for eternity lol. I think the state of being in the translations is referred to as a 'primordial soup' which the crucible obviously parallels. Of course the optimistic ending is keep struggling because somewhere out there is a person who understands you! When it comes to elden ring; the contempt the general populous shows towards shabriri and the wandering merchants is something they have in common. Their greatest source of suffering can be traced back to human relationships much like the main character from evangelion.
It's interesting how you talked about melting things to become one. It reminds me of entropy in physics. Entropy is associated with Chaos such that when an enclosed system/environment is left alone, its entropy will increase and one result of this is that every part of the system will be mixed together. I wonder if the flame of frenzybis similar to the flame of chaos in any way. Afterall, chaos was uncontrollable, and devours everything in its path too...
I think one detail to compound the idea that Shabriri is the true person guilty of aligning with the frenzied flame, not the great caravan, is the fact that you find out about the Miquella's Needle through one of the merchants' info notes, found inside the place they were entombed. If they wanted the frenzied flame to take over, why would they write down the means to defeat it?
I think Shabriri was the first being to ever get a glimpse of the frenzied flame, but his suffering alone wasn’t enough. He needed enough suffering to actually summon the frenzied flame, that’s why he slandered the great caravan. The great caravan members were then all rounded up in one place and their combined suffering from being falsely accused caused them to do exactly what Shabriri wanted them to do and summon the frenzied flame. Shabriri might have had his eyes gouged out when it was revealed he falsely accused them, but he was still smiling because he got exactly what he wanted as suggested by the shabriri’s woe talisman.
@@timmoh very cool theory I see one issue tho. If the frenzy began with Shabriri, then it means he was already frenzied when the caravan thing happened, but his talisman seems to imply he developed the frenzy after having his eyes gouged out
I agree Ratok, if the 3 + 2 make a whole hand and the crucible was the origin of the GO and Erdtree, I believe the Flame Of Frenzy is what’s left after the part that is the Golden Order left for more civilised heights
![[4K] Watch SpaceX Catch A Starship Rocket From Space!!! #IFT5](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pIKI7y3DTXk/mqdefault.jpg)
The true pain and suffering is trying to jump down the platforms to get to the Three Fingers... :'D
Pretty genius design decision when you think about it. It causes you to feel true despair so you can really understand where the Frenzied Flame is coming from. Brilliant!
Life was a mistake...
This is exactly it. Exa try how I felt when I kept dying omw to the bottom. Made it so much better when I finally got it
Lol I totally got sidetracked and happened upon this place. Totally worth it to find this out
@@ponspectorstillwedie4579 Unless of course you feel that sense of triumph upon succeeding. . . and it's hard to ignore Melina's pleas about the beauty of life.
@@stupidanon5941 I know this is going to make me sound like a douche but I made it on my first trial and wasn't that hard, for me the despair came on that tower on Caelid, that one was my despair
The Hyetta questline always really creeped me out on a deep psychological level. I was listening to the dialogue again and I think I finally understand why. Each thing you are willing to do to Hyetta is grooming you to be comfortable with the destruction that the flame of frenzy would bring.
-First thing you do is offer her grapes, probably not understanding what they are.
-when you figure out what they are, you can tell her. If you're willing to give her more after you know what they are, it means you are both willing to do something distasteful because she asked, and willing to break her sanity by telling her what they are
-if you give her the fingerprint grape, you know full well that you are enabling an addiction, and are comfortable with doing so to satisfy your curiosity.
-As the final test, Hyette asks you to burn her with the flame of frenzy. She asks you to un-make her, just as you eventually unmake the world.
That's when I realized that Hyetta is a person who literally seduces you into slowly and utterly destroying her. Mind, body, and soul. Going along with it means you slowly sink into depravity and eventually become someone capable of the despicable act of destroying the entire world.
How does she even get below the shunning grounds though?
@@EP-je2sv she was wondering around the leyndell streets looking for some grapes and tripped and fell down a sewer
@@wesley5729 if only it was that easy to go through the sewer
@@EP-je2sv apparently everyone in leyndll only attacks the player
@@chxllz-8956Everyone just shilling in the Altus plateau while you need to invade two fortresses to even use the lift
This is a more traditional lore video. I hope you enjoy.
Thank you rattoktcster, unfortunately this is not a Maldron the Assassin video so you lose 1000 points
But you do gain 5 extra points because it's about the flame of frenzy
when are you reading us another book papa
I think the only part that still bothers me is that the 3 fingers doesn’t seem to be a malformed 2 fingers, but rather a separation of what was once the One Great, especially since the 3F is a thumb and two fingers that would match the middle finger and pinky of the 2F.
The Greater Will is just that, the part of the One Great that split off to impose its own ideas upon the world. The 3F is the remnant of that and it burns to be reunited again.
It was very good, and went into depth about a lot of stuff I didn’t catch. The problem is, I found the Three Fingers before feeding grapes or really meeting Shabriri in my blind playthrough. I missed so much backstory.
"To be alive…to walk this earth… That's the real curse right there." - Crestfallen Saulden
I thought that quote came from Lucatiel
@@andrewbowen2837 Have you played DS2?
@@WarhawkLieutenent quite a lot actually. When she has her mental breakdown, she says something very similar, in blackreach
@@andrewbowen2837 She does:
"....."
"Maybe we're all cursed..."
"From the moment we were born"
@@infinityactually6166 so I'm not crazy lol
Your conclusion that the three fingers is an aspect of the greater will is really enlightening. And the evidence drawn together to form that opinion is great. I was convinced that the frenzied flame was another outer god, but not anymore
@@evil_dwight That was an Aprils fool fake. There is no 7th ending
well, 2 fingers plus 3 fingers equals hand of creation - quik maffs
I would even go further and say that greater will is actual universal will that mortals cant comprehend. So they latch on to different god/order that is only part of it. The fact that the player character cant lose grace by any mean except frenzy flame, and even then they still have a way out indicate that whoever grant it to the player have more influence than any outer god.
So, in other words a loser who only is sad bc he's a loser
The main support for this is probably miquella's needle. It specifically says it wards off the meddling of outer gods and can seal the flame of frenzy. Seems to track pretty clearly.
It seemed likely to me on a symbolic level that two + three fingers used to be part of the same "hand", so this checks out.
also the merchants instruments have a hand on it with 5 fingers
This is what made me think this even before Ratotaskr’s excellent videos on the topic. I just felt like they were the different digits of the same hand
@@visceraeyes525 I think that's just a back scratcher don't read too much into it
@@evil_dwight 😂
I think it's another Berserk reference which is Hand of God...
Great video as always! 6:12 I believe Vyke was unable to fully adopt the Frenzied Flame because he did not cast away his armor prior to approaching the Three Fingers. This is why rather than having the prints singed upon his flesh they are instead melted into his armor.
This definitely brings more light to kale’s line about him and his kin being a sort to hold a grudge
Probably a line that was thrown in to hint at something but wasn't removed.
@@4ncientGu150 Well, there was no need to remove it. It's initially a warning, kinda like "fuck around and find out". It initially had a greater meaning, as we get to see Kale's dialogue in the shunning grounds, but even though that was left out, the line about holding grudges still works as a deterrent from killing the merchants.
Goated pfp
Great video, but I have a few responses from other lore entries:
-The Frenzied Flame is referred to as a disease by multiple sources (Nomad's Ashes / Frenzied's Cookbook / Howl of Shabriri / Shabriri Grape / Note: Frenzied Flame Village). As per the Nomad Ashes, which summons a Nomadic Merchant that uses Frenzied Flame incantations and can be healed by Frenzyflame Stones, the Nomadic Merchant Clan was "entombed in the earth so as to bury the maddening disease that followed them." This means they had to have already been followers of the Frenzied Flame (which is the heretical beliefs they were persecuted for as per their armour set), even if they didn't know about the Three Fingers specifically or thought their madness was different from the Three Fingers, as per Kale's cut dialogue.
-The "Lord of Frenzied Flame" taking over the player at the end could also be the Three Fingers. The Note: Lord of Frenzied Flame item refers to the Three Fingers as the Lord of Frenzied Flame, "who holds us in thrall." The "us", the author of the note, is unclear, possibly the Clan of Nomadic Merchants since you buy the note from one of them, but it could be that the merchants, Shabriri, Hyetta, Vyke and anyone else who comes to host the Frenzied Flame becomes thrall to the Three Fingers. This is in keeping with the edict of "melt it all down until all is one"--everyone who hosts the Frenzied Flame effectively becomes a part of the Three Fingers, a part of a single entity. They become one.
-This is entirely speculation on my part but it's a continuation of your theory that the Three Fingers are a vassal of the Greater Will.
Having the Three Fingers be a vassal (perhaps a rebellious one) of the Greater Will might explain why it is 3 fingers of the 5 we naturally presume, while the Two Fingers is the remaining 2 of that 5, and why both the Three and Two look heavily damaged and malformed.
We see no physical manifestation of the Greater Will, only the Fingers which carry out / rebel against its will, just like my fingers typing the letters in this comment, translating my thoughts into language. We know the Two Fingers serve that function; they are essentially the hand of the Greater Will. Perhaps the Three Fingers are also that hand, and the reason they and the Two separated and damaged is because the Greater Will itself is conflicted.
The Greater Will feels that it made a mistake, because the world it created is full of beauty yet also full of suffering, but it's torn on whether to keep trying to patch things up (Two Fingers / Elden Ring / Order) or to tear the whole thing down and start over (Three Fingers / Frenzied Flame)--and thus its hand is literally torn, ripped apart into Two and Three. It's like a writer editing their manuscript, unable to shake this burning, writhing feeling that no matter how many changes they make there's still a greater flaw underlying the whole narrative, yet unable to bring themselves to destroy their work.
Could it be that Melina is talking about Shabriri when she's referring to the lord of frenzy ? That it is Shabriri she is promising to deliver destined death and not 'us' ? - If it is indeed Shabriri it also ties in with the fact how Shabriri doesn't really die and possesses dead bodies and thus avoiding the 'cycle' of destined death
YOU HAVE IT
I like this and agree that would make sense. I do also wonder if Melina's dialogue about being "burned and bodiless" and her extreme dissent for anything related to Flame of Frenzy has something to do with this.
this make a lot of sense
The only problem I see with this reasoning is that she also tells us she will kill us before we burn our body in the Forge of the Giants, and in that moment we definitely are ourselves and not Shabriri
@@Sebascadpi in the first instance she is referring to us.
She seems to kill us before gaining access to the erdtree, and unleashing the flame of frenzy.
At the erdtree, we clearly die, and the manifestation of the frenzied flame takes over. After this, Melina has her dialogue about delivering destined death.
after your last video, i started reading brothers karamazov, i'm already in the middle of the book. thank you for introducing me to this masterpiece.
Everything by Dostoevsky is fucking gold.
true detective and thomas ligotti
Im so glad you connected the Crucible/Greater Will/Flame of Frenzy together. I felt the same way when I first heard Hyetta's dialogue about there being "One Great" before things splintered. This theory also just so much sense on the surface level. 5 Fingers split into 2 and 3. The 2 Fingers represent the desire for Order when presented with Life's many disparities and the 3 fingers represent the rejection of those disparities and a desire to return the chaos of undefined existence.
Its also interesting how this juxtaposes Marika's shattering and the spreading of the Great Runes which make up the Elden Ring. There was once order in The Lands Between and then there was chaos and disparity after The Shattering. Also how Radagon wishes to "be complete" by learning Sorcery and Incantations. Could that be a small part of the Greater Will manifesting itself through his pull towards regression, only in a different way from the FoF?
Anyway another great video dude, and I hope this sets a basis for how people view this part of the lore moving forward. You're giving me Redgrave from Bloodborne times with these spot on connections and theories.
>"be complete" by learning Sorcery and Incantations
I also did this in my own playthrough. Why only shoot blue lasers when the yellow is right there?
Dude I love your assessment of the lore
I miss Redgrave :(
@@velocitylk same! I hope he's out there still enjoying these games
@@ATC43 He tweeted about ER atleast 1 time if i recall correctly, i'm pretty sure he's having fun!
It's rather unlikely that he'll ever comeback :(
Besides, there is too many lore content creators out there now.
Babe wake up, new Ratatoskr video just dropped.
AND ITS ABOUT THE FRENZIED FLAME AGAIN!
Ahh, may chaos take Rataoskr's channel
Oh boy here we go again, yet another trip into the value of life and why should we end it
Im glad you took an interest in this topic specifically. I got the flame ending first run through and vyke's armor description echoed true for me because i for no reason decided to go to the sewers right before the final boss gauntlet, which it feels like the game is beckoning you to do by having the sewer entrance right there.
Funnily enough I couldn’t actually find the sewer entrance. I just wanted to go in there for dung eater
Both in lore and gameplay-wise, I love The Flame of Frenzy. The Frenzy incantations have some of the most interesting animations and properties. And of course, landing Inescapable Frenzy on someone is a huge dopamine boost. Also I think that The Flame of Frenzy and Greater Will were once one entity, two halves. One eternally yearning for distinction and order. One eternally yearning for melding and chaos.
Strangley I would interpret the desire for chaos to be a yerning for order. Once everything is melded, everything becomes the same.
As is mentioned in the game by Hyetta, the reason why the three fingers has an agenda against the greater will is because of the inconsistencies created by the greater will, namely that life isn't as orderly as people would like to say it is, and by destroying everything, you are actually creating a world that is more orderly than what the great will envisioned.
Flame of Frenzy seems to actually hates chaos,basically chaos is what caused these indifferences and he wants to get back to where everything was just one thing.
The greater will deal with chaos by divinding and distinguishing while the FoF burns everything so everything is the same,ash.
Way to alienate the people who subscribed for more Russian literature
ikr smh i came for my daily dose of depression XD.
I'm hoping next video links in some Kafka and Tolstoy into Malenia's lore.
I like both
@@KrakenGameReviews I mean her fight is already a Kafkaesque nightmare so I think that much is already there lol.
I'm dead 😂
I think a great argument for the flame of frenzy being drawn by despair is the few NPC’s who are related to it, Hyetta and Shabriri. They both take over the bodies of those who have died and experienced despair, Hyetta emerging only after Irina was killed and her father finds her body, and Shabriri emerging in the body of Yura, after we assist him to kill Eleonora, someone who he once loved. Shabriri probably didn’t get Yura’s body by asking nicely.
You can meet Hyetta before meeting Irina, it's been confirmed by multiple players.
@@Knoloaify I think Hyetta is supposed to be met after Irina’s death, a lot of context leads me to believe they are the same, since they both wear a dress with blood stained on it, and both have the same voice actor. Plus you usually explore the Weeping Pennisula before ever fighting Godrick.
@@Bagel920 my point is, Hyetta can't be using Irina's body if they both exist at the same time in different places.
@@Knoloaify I See that point and I feel that it’s a game issue of conflicting quest lines because they obviously want to tell us they are the same person. Maybe Irina never actually died and joined the Frenzy Flame village since that’s also on the weeping pennisula.
@@Bagel920 nah man, she's dead. It's an interesting theory but it don't hold water.
Hm, i dont think that the three fingers are some kind of malformed form of the two fingers, but rather that they are both part of a greater whole, the entire hand. What makes me thinl that way, is that the three fingers consist of the thumb, the middle finger and the pinky finger. Whereas the two fingers seem to consist of the index finger and the ringfinger, thus both of them together would build a full hand. This thought of course ignored the fact, that there are multiple 2 fingers but (as far as we know) only one 3 fingers. One might explain that away by speculating, that the two fingers, we find throughout the lands between are each just copy of the original two fingers. Lastly i want to state, that if the 2 and 3 fingers build a full hand together, this might be a neat metaphor for life and existance having a duality of pain and pleasure, however this would at the same time be a statement that existance is rather pain thn pleasure, considering that the whole hand is 3 parts agony and only 2 parts joy.
Well anywhay thanks for reading my maddened ramblings!
I believe the two fingers were the middle and ring finger, based off the height of each fingers and the distance between them. The 3 fingers were made of the index, thumb and the pinky finger of the hand.
Right on. Makes more sense than "malformed" fingers. Stronger case for all things used to be one until fractures, births, etc.
Perhaps the two halves of a greater whole analogy here could represent the nature of the Greater Will as it embodies both the laws of causality and regression. That is to say the Greater Will is the common source that set about the creation of all things from the Crucible (and thus is the thing that all things wish to become once more and why they all yearn to eternally converge) and because of that all things share a common relation to each other (regardless of how far detached they may be in a chain of relations).
These videos are so good.
This is exactly the kind of lore content I was looking for.
Ive been looking at some of the many(too many) lore videos going up since release, and most have very odd interpretations that really lack anything insightful.
Your videos seem to lean heavily into what is being represented thematically, and what the lore is actually trying to convey-- and I really appreciate it.
Another important quality of a crucible is that it melts away imperfections. The heating of metal erases and removes impurities. The frenzied flame's will to me seems to, ironically, not really be "chaos" as the name suggests, but a sort of "one-ness" in the form of equalization through the destruction and removal of all outlying and complex "impurities". Perhaps the chaos in Lord of Chaos refers less to the outcome of the burning of everything as chaotic and moreso the chaotic and intense means by which this grand equalization is accomplished, through chaotic flame, the burning and melting of everything before the resolution of all as one once again.
Explains why it’s the best ending, the Flame of Frenzy fixes everything in the end.
Elden Ring doesn't just use the term as meaning destruction like a lot of modern fantasy does, it uses the term in a traditional sense. "Chaos" is a mythological motif of the primordial state of the universe, which a creator deity separates into heaven/earth/life etc. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony)
I'll highlight this passage from Metamorphoses by Ovid:
"Before the ocean and the earth appeared- before the skies had overspread them all-
the face of Nature in a vast expanse was naught but Chaos uniformly waste.
It was a rude and undeveloped mass, that nothing made except a ponderous weight;
and all discordant elements confused, were there congested in a shapeless heap."
Part of why the lore of Elden Ring is so effective is because Miyazaki/Fromsoft are clearly aware of mythological conventions, not just modern fantasy.
This is something I haven't seen mentioned enough.
Personally, I have always thought of the greater will as one hand: where the two fingers represents order and the three representing its antithesis: chaos.
The conflict taking place between the frenzied flame and the golden order is one of reunification
The three fingers are the thumb, the middle finger and the pinky. The two fingers are the index and the ring finger. So yeah! I agree!
I think a possible reason why Vyke couldn't fully accept the flame of frenzy was because he (as shown in some promotional material) was wearing armor, which reads on the item description, that it is "Iron armor singed and blistered by fingers." This connects to the scene where Hyetta insists that you "divest yourself of all possessions", possibly as a philosophical way of saying to not let your material possessions so that you will be able to destroy/abandon them. Really like the video :)
Someone pointed out how the nomads' instrument are decorated with a hand. I wonder if that came from some form of Crucible worship, which would have already put the nomads on the margins of society and would have made Shabriri's slander that much more effective.
The Flame of Frenzy has always reminded of The End of Evangelion, where powerful elites essentially bring about the end of humanity by returning everyone to the primordial soup whence we came. People are uncomfortable, living separately and in agony, and with the return of the angels, we can break down the barriers that separate our consciousness and become one. So in a giant wave of suspiciously orange fluid, all of humanity is swept away and attempts to become one. Where our protagonist, Shinji, makes the ultimate decision as to whether or not a life pain and separate existence, that is to say; existing alongside people, is worth living. -[[I'm not an expert on anything Evangelion, please don't fucking roast me please]]-
The similarities of the Flame of Frenzy and this weird orange primordial soup from Evangelion are just fascinating to me and I can't help but wonder if it's on purpose. Ending pain and suffering, breaking down that which divides us, and uh... being orange... just food for thought.
The Flame of Frenzy is me most Dark Souls thing in Elden Ring you can find. As it means an end for everything, and in a very buddhist manner, the end of suffering. The curse of life ends there. So i guess it´s only natural to see similarities to The End of Evangelion. No more living in fear, no more feeling power- and meaningless in a world filled with beeings way larger than any normal individual could aspire to ever be. But there is beauty to be found in that struggle for meaning, or is there not?
Yes, goal of three fingers and nerv are literally the same, melt life together and reunite it into one
Regarding the three fingers, I don't think it's a coincidence that a human hand has five digits and two + three makes five. I like to think that the Three Fingers symbolize that desire to reunify into the One Great, especially with the Two Fingers.
it's so obvious he didn't say it
@@NielsGx Thought I'd put it out there anyway, just in case
Given the abstract and piecemeal qualities of FromSoft's storytelling, I've always found it useful to rely on symbolism and probable metaphor as additional guide to piece together what is being said. Instead of using the story to extrapolate the thematics, I use the thematics to extrapolate the story. If there is one thing, that to me, makes an immediate and strong case for the three fingers being a facet of the greater will it is the following. A hand has long been used as a symbol for gods (hands are the power that moves things, after all). And at the risk of stating the obvious, hands have five fingers. It seems baked into the symbolism that the three fingers and the two fingers represent two different facets of a singular whole.
Agreed. From the very start, once I heard about the two fingers I assumed there would be at least three more. I was actually surprised when the three were just in one other entity and not three separate fingers, but it seemed obvious that if they were going for all these finger/hand allusions some sense of the wholeness of a hand would be necessary.
If I remember correctly I read that there was a cut quest and ending about combining the 3 fingers and 2 fingers but I'm not entirely sure. I will respond with a link if I can find the evidence
ruclips.net/video/6PwzUYDsz1M/видео.html
The evidence for combining the fingers.
@@mickellmelton4051 could that have to do with mending?
Yes and that the two fingers stop working when the three come to life.
Amazing collection of info! wanted to add, the people infected with frenzy and bent backwards - are actually shaped like the 3 fingers. if you look at it it looks like the 3 fingers that depart the flame of frenzy on the player (at 1:35)
Not sure if anybody else pointed this out but the music choice for the last portion where you explain what the three fringes are is just😩👌🏾
The frenzy flame reminds me of "the idea of evil" from berserk, the subconscious will of man, to justify the evil of man.
Given how much Kentaro Miura's work has influenced Miyazaki throughout the years, I'd say that you are likely correct.
Nope
I wish you mentioned how trigger-happy the Frenzied Flame and it's envoys are with causing suffering upon others, despite their entire cause being based on life not being worth the pain it brings. Their only way of spreading their cause is through madness, and bringing people to such a deplorable state that they come to the Frenzied Flame's conclusion, and turning them into it's envoys. It seemed that though the Frenzied Flame hates the suffering brought upon by the Greater Will, it's not shy to be the cause of a very considerable part of it. The only ones who come to the conclusion of life not being worth it are the ones inflicted with the unspeakable madness, no one's come to such a conclusion but the ones enthralled by the Three Fingers and their fiery scorching flame. Perhaps the Flame of Frenzy is very much the one to create the cause for it's righteous fight against all existence.
Still even without the Frenzied Flame, life would still be pretty shit for the average person in the Lands Between, but it's still worth thinking about how unabashed the Three Fingers are with spreading it's madness. Maybe it's a "the ends justify the means" type of deal, need to go through a lot of pain it to end it all.
It could be as such if the Lord of Frenzy could end it all in the first place. In your ending analysis you only analysed the first scene with the tarnished inside the Erdtree, yet you didn't mention the second scenery in the capital of ash. From what I saw it was less of a "everything is burned back to the ashes it came from" and more like everything's a bit scorched and... there's a giant Flame of Frenzy where the Erdtree used to be. Just like the flame atop the tower in Liurnia, spreading madness and the flame throughout all the Lands Between, people all the way up to Limgrave and Caelid feel the roaring madness in the back of their eyes and screaming in pain. This scene doesn't suggest to me that it all returns to nothing, more so that now the Frenzied Flame is Lord, it's enthralled everyone in it's suffering now inescapable (unless you're underground).
Just like how the message of the Flame was spread through madness at the beginning of your journey, you've now become it's greatest envoy and have spread even more suffering throughout all the Lands Between. Just like how Shabriri is a notorious liar and a devious trickster so is his god, and in your foolishness you've been tricked and now you've doomed us all to eternal suffering, a kind of living hell. I don't think the solution to burn it all and incinerate all that divides and distinguishes is even possible for such an entity to entail, too good to be true and certainly an enthralling concept for someone who's life is ruled by unendurable pain and suffering. Anyway this is what I got from the last ending scene and I'm really really sorry lol
I don't believe all that I've said was in Miyazaki's or GRRM's creative vision when writing about the Flame of Frenzy but I think there's at least a grain of truth to it, at least in the first comment of mine. At the very least this is really fun to talk about and theorize and all that jazz, I'm going to sleep now 😴
@@thethethehthehthe Yeah Caelid doesn't have much info on what it's role was before the rot, mostly because it's identity is shaped so much by the rot and it being a horrible place to live in, so I expect that a DLC like what you speak of to do wonders for Caelid and make it 10 times more authentic than it is
I think it's worth mentioning that Shabriri is a liar when he says that by accepting the flame of frenzy your maiden will be spared- because if you accept the flame Melina is no longer your maiden, Hyetta is. And if you complete Hyetta's questline you see that she is set ablaze and becomes ashes just like how Melina would be if you used her as kindling. I think this shows that you still sacrifice a maiden to burn the erdtree regardless of the path you take. Maybe I'm wrong but its worth discussing I think.
That Novel reading really did help. Very clear by the end
I feel that Hyetta "probably" taking Irina's body or her image is very fitting to her character. Irina is similar to the children of the story because she is presented as a very innocent person. She only wants to be with her father, and she is murdered before they can reunite. Then Hyetta takes her body and begins to adopt this point of view that life is utterly suffering and the Greater Will made a mistake by creating life.
Love the theory. One thing over looked is that ranni has a blue three fingers. If you look at her dead fingers it has a very clearly molded thumb
Way late to the video, but I wanted to add a couple of tidbits.
First is that long life through the removal of destined death is also major reason for the rise of madness. A cut character Gilbert says as much (see Sekiro Dubi's documentary). But we also have the demigods who are specifically long lived and symbolize madness in through various means:
- Godrick: inferiority complex & grafting
- Radahn: hubris & cannibalism
- Ranni: isolation & conspiracy
- Morgott: self-loathing & zealotry
- Mohg: delusions & hedonism
- Malenia: loss & grief
- Miquella: body dysmorphia & failure
The central point here is that perhaps the game is trying to say that these sorts of flaws will appear in time, and thus destined (natural) death used to be the solution by limiting our time in the Lands Between. Therefore, the game leads us to believe that the Frenzy ending is a step too far because reinstalling destined death would solve the problem without also taking away life's beauty like Melina tells us. It's even more fitting that she vows to deliver destined death upon us in that ending.
My second point was that although I agree that we the Tarnished die in a way at that point in the Frenzy ending, it may not be so clear cut. We are inhabited by the FoF before that point and still capable of agency, we're already doing the 3F's bidding of our own accord. It has no requirement to replace us because we are a powerful asset. What it needs is a new vessel to bring about its vision.
Vessels of gods skirt this blurry line of agency already. It's hard to say where one begins and the other ends, and they are called gods and queens at the same time. It seems unlikely that the Elden Beast could have achieved what Marika did without inhabiting her, nor is it likely that she is speaking 100% as herself or as the Greater Will in the echoes we hear through Melina.
It seems clear that there was a schism between Marika and the Golden Order. Now the Order isn't the Will, but if the Will is an embodiment of collective thought and willpower, then the Order would likely still manifest through it in some ways that Marika didn't agree with. The fact that she/Radagon tried to both shatter and put back together the Elden Ring indicates that a vessel can have individual motives from their god.
All that to say: to me it's more like we and the FoF are sharing our body. Unlike the great snake which seeks to consume all, the Flame of Frenzy seeks to meld all things together as one.
Cheers and thanks if you took the time to read!
I used the last video as a lullaby to tuck me to sleep, keep doing that lore asmr please.
This is by far my favorite ending in the game and this is the best explanation on RUclips of why that ending is alluring.
I've long since believed the Three Fingers and Two Fingers were both connected to the Greater Will, if for no other reason than just they would join to be five fingers. It's surface level, sure, but I've always found it odd that it's Two Fingers. Or why fingers at all, but why two? Then there's the Hyetta's talk of everything coming from one thing, and then suddenly there were multiple. Finally, the Three Fingers could just be malformed Two Fingers, but the way they're shaped, the way they GRIP (something the Two Fingers could never do, by the way), suggests one of the fingers is a thumb.
Next I'd look at the Merchants, and the fact they travel with a stick to play music with (dunno what it's called), that's capped with a hand. Perhaps their heretical belief was that the Two Fingers are just part of a whole? Again, mostly surface level , but it's what I've been operating on.
Very interesting observation on the stick with the hand on it! Perhaps the Great Caravan were worshippers of the One Great and thus worshipped the hand, the three and two fingers put together. Which might also be why they were called the “Great” Caravan.
I think that Vyke was unable to inherit the flame because he didn't take off his armor when the Three Fingers grasped him. It would explain why his armor is burned.
Edit: Oh and another thing... You . mentioned the 3 fingers are malformed 2 fingers. Take a look at the 4 toed fowl foot item, it says 3 digits are an omen of bad luck!
Inheriting the frenzied flame, saving Melina, then killing Placidusax and curing myself of the frenzy flame was the most satisfying thing ever. Felt like I'd tricked the three fingers and shabriri.
I am still confused how the rat also be inflicted by the Frenzy Flame.
Miranda Flowers too, they even get a new thrashing attack
Fromsoft games rats are always closely associated with humanity. In ds1 they drop humanity and wherever humanity is rats are there to follow. Only humanity can be inflicted by frenzy and they are probably closely enough associated to get it. Just a guess
There’s probably lots of death in locations with a lot of frenzied flame madness going around. The rats eat the corpses of those afflicted and then get inflicted by the frenzied flame themselves.
Rats must be really intelligent, probably philosophers
I was wondering last night going through the sewers that maybe when they locked the Three Fingers away, the affliction was somehow spread by the rats in the sewers, and then to the Lands Between via more rats, and the Merchants got blamed for it.
I love your videos man! I think your theory is spot on! Just one thing I interprete slightly different is that although the flame of frenzy and the greater will started out as one entity, it does appear that they became sperate entities with separate consciousness, wills, and desires along the way. It also makes me wonder if all outer gods and life started out as one god head. If so each outer god could represent a different body part like the fingers, but I'm just spitballing theories haha.
I agree completely with your last presentation of this subject but I'm happy to have you continue it here as well
So far the frenzied flame has some of my favorite lore in Elden Ring. It probably helps that I love the frenzy incantations lol
With all of the grafting of limbs that went on, I think it's also interesting to consider the possibility that the three fingers are actually man-made.
But this was another great video. Not that I've come to expect any less. Your finely articulated research does not go unappreciated.
Keep up the great work!
Just wanted to say I immensely enjoyed your last video and this one as well. I’ve been contemplating vyke’s story all day and this came at a perfect time. So lemme share my current theory: there are two versions of vyke in the game, Festering Fingerprint Vyke and Vyke, Knight of the Roundtable (i’m going to abbreviate those names). So FFV is a red phantom invader with a name unlike most invaders. He is not a bloody finger and he is not a recusant. The other invaders i can think of with unique names are the “tarnished-eater”, the inquisitor, and millicent. I think millicent is the proper invader to compare since they are both afflicted by a disease. Millicent’s phantom seems to be a former version of herself, probably due to her decaying mind clinging to her healthy days fighting in the war. In this same way i believe FFV is an invading phantom of Vyke’s mind recalling his madness and the atrocity he committed, the murder of his maiden. I believe that VKotR is the real Vyke and that somehow his madness had been overcome, be it before or after he was imprisoned. I really wanna know who imprisoned him and why his maiden lies in that particular church…anyway those are my thoughts. Thanks for readin
The god of rot is actually associated with the lesser-known middle finger. It's canonical, look it up :-)
Elden Rings lore flies right over my head despite my attempt to get into it. I will say, by the end of this game, I resonated most with the frenzied flame ending. There's nothing worth saving in this world, it's all awful.
I mean there’s always Sir Gideon Ofnir, the ALLLLLLLLLLLL KNOWWWWWIIINNGGGGGGG
little side note of appreciation, the Chrono Trigger background music *chef's kiss*
thankyou for the lore video. i think you are honestly the best Elden Ring lore content creator at this stage (vaati 'waiting for the other lore youtubers to perfect the theories' btfo). absolutely you are the most well spoken and astute.
I'd be very interested in your lore musings on The Dung Eater. I have done quite some research and come to my own theories and conclusions, but having 'gotten down to the bottom of it' with his ethos and motivations so to speak, I've found that looking into the Flame of Frenzy offers a lot of what i feel is missing from the Dung Eater lore, in terms of having a satisfactory explanation/theoretical basis.
I see Dung Eater's ending and goals as the 'lowercase n' nihilism choice (or more accurately the pessimist ending), that is to say it is overly micro and personal in its focus and scope ("i have known pure suffering, i see the suffering in omens, people think omens are the worst, i love omens as i see my reviled suffering in them, its all shit anyway so lets make everyone omens and see if they still think theyre the worst lol") whereas the Flame of Frenzy is 'uppercase N' Nihilism ("the suffering of this world outweighs the positives of beauty and personal experience").
perhaps i am missing a key part of the Dung Eater's motivations, but at this stage having trawled through all of the reddit/youtube comment discussions around this, i'm fairly sure there isn't a piece of an in-game dung eater related evidence that i am not aware of.
I've held this theory for quite a while now. The flame causes regression and one-ness, and one of the tenants of the golden order is specifically this. Too much to be a coincidence - there must be a connection.
I wonder if this kind of thinking can be applied to the great flame of the giants as well.
Playing the kingsfield main menu theme for a dark lore exploration video?
Here, have my like !
Btw, Vyke was apparently not lacking but ill prepared. We got zombie Hyetta to explain we gotta strip down, I think Vyke was likely alone, hence had no one to tell him. Explains his burnt armor.
Thank you for touching on the possibility that the Three Fingers are not serving a completely separate Outer God. Your theory makes much more sense to me.
I had never thought to connect the Three Fingers to the Crucible but the Imagey really makes sense. It also leaves me with even more questions about the timeline of events and when the Greater Will came to the Lands Between.
The line about the Caravan folk living 'in the cracks' is heartbreaking. It depicts a world of people who strive for perfect order that cannot comprehend that there may be people who live outside of that order who are capable of living in harmony with it. It makes sense that it is this attitude that invokes the frenzied flame; order grows to the point where it becomes unbearable, and some force must push back.
I very much agree with your analysis. In my playthrough I felt that the lore and interaction with Frenzy touched individuals finalized by the interaction with Shabriri felt like they were all connected, like they were already melted back together as one. I attacked Shabriri because of this after I heard all his dialog. He felt repugnant to me, like a cancerous tumor that stole an honorable friend's life, wearing Yura as he did. I think you hit the reality right on the money of what the 3 fingers and Shabriri are.
Three fingers and 2 fingers are 2 parts of a fractured single entity. 2 plus 3 is 5. 5 fingers on a human hand
Shabriri is the King in Yellow, right down to possessing the dead bodies of his followers. He even hides his face!
I really like the notion that the player character dies as they approach Marika, to be controlled by Shabriri, it's a fun idea to imagine your character scrambling for Miquella's needle to ward away the influence as they become aware they're doomed otherwise.
Also yeah, I 100% agree with the idea that the Three Fingers are aspects of the Greater Will rather than a distinct outer god. I mean it makes sense, two and three fingers together make a whole hand. It sounds likely to me that in the same way Death was removed from the natural order of life, the fingers were separated in order to remove the notion of chaos from the Order.
And in more technical aspects, there are no mentions of the Three Fingers being linked to an outer god, and even more condemning as you mentioned is Hyetta's dialogue, linking them to the Greater Will.
Great points overall !
I REALLY enjoyed the previous video about the philosophy of the Frenized Flame and 100% agree that it was better to end it there.
My understanding of why the three and two fingers is that they might represent quite literal parts of a whole. Two fingers plus three makes for a complete hand. The hand of a greater will, if you will. Why the three for chaos and two for order? I think this again might illustrate how chaos and suffering seem bigger to us than order and solace.
The deepest horror of the frenzied flame is not the depravity of Shabiri, the living death of the village, or the corruption of Hyetta, but that it is the right path to take. May chaos take the world.
Nicely put video, cheers...i am going for the lord of frenzy ending for my first play through ...did not met Sabriri cause i was touched by the tree fingers prior to the giants mountain tops. He just invaded me there. I am gonna pretend its all "my choice" for the last cinematic. I loved Melinas commentary about life prior and after being grasped by the three fingers. Masterpiece of a game and your videos do the game justice. Thank you for your worship!
the idea that Shabriri just takes our body at the end makes quite a lot of sense (with him screaming "MAY CHAOS TAKE THE WORLD" when meeting us even when we are yet to get the flame of frenzy, doesnt strike me as a guy who would be subtle in showing his joy)
My theory on Vyke is that he wanted to save his Maiden, but she rejected him in the same way that Melina rejected us if we chose that path, so she killed _herself_ in protest, or, if we want to get darker, _he_ killed her in rage at her rejection, and in any case he abandoned his quest because he could no longer save her, and just stayed to guard her body for eternity.
Please do breakdowns on the ideologies of the other gods of Elden Ring. I would love to see a deep dive on Ranni's Age of Stars!
Another indication that the flame of frenzy stems from the Greater Will (or the one great) is how all frenzy incantations scale exclusively off the Faith stat.
You mean that the frenzy incantations only have a faith requirement. but the seal of frenzied flame scales off of everything except for arcane.
ehh,thats kinda tenious,dragon spells require faith but that dosent make the dragons related to the greater will
The form/motifs of the Golden Order and the Frenzied Flame also seem related to the idea of the Crucible, with the gold being the substance melted/purified by the flame.
Perhaps Marika's banishment of the Godefroy/the Tarnished and want for them to struggle to develop and observe their growth is just a microcosm or echo of the Great One/Greater Will wanting to be purified by splitting the Flame off and providing a test of itself.
an interesting feature to note is that the two fingers line up perfectly on the palm where the three fingers have space for a middle and ring finger, which visually hints to and reinforces the connection as different parts of the greater will
I agree with every point you made here. So refreshing to see someone with similar beliefs as me come to the same conclusions about the FoF.
I've loved all of your videos so far. Such fresh and well-thought-out views.
Really compelling story and it's why I was drawn to that ending even though it's the most depressing or "bad" ending. Given what I, the tarnished character learns, the lands between seem irreparable. Then Shabriri convinces you to sacrifice yourself, and it makes you feel better about doing it. The responsibility to end it all should fall on you and you alone.
I would add that Melina's lines of dialogue about the Flame of Frenzy reinforce the idea that she is an agent of Destined Death, if not Death incarnate. If you become Lord of Chaos, the concepts of life and death become meaningless since everything is one again. When she says that there's beauty in life and births, I genuinely think she is also deceiving you, because what she actually means is that without life, there can be no death at all, which is even worse than merely expunging the rune of death from the Elden Ring. In other words, she is more worried about the absence of Death as a consequence of the absence of life, rather than being worried about the absence of life in itself.
Here's a couple of things about Farum Azula and the lore found there that I think actually point to the Three Fingers and Two Fingers having once been one entity. Specifically the following.
1. Dragonlord Placidusax was somehow an Elden Lord prior to the Erdtree, and had 4 heads and 1 tail which is unique even for an Ancient Dragon. When we fight him, two of his heads and most of his tail are destroyed, leaving only 2 heads. This, combined with the fact that the god of the dragons "Disappeared" leads me to think that god was the One Great, all 5 fingers, and when Farum Azula was destroyed somehow the One Great split and Placidusax is awaiting the fingers coming together again, something that will likely never happen.
2. The larger Elden Ring reliefs. Throughout Farum Azula you can find reliefs that look like the Elden Ring, but much larger with what look like additional runes. This could represent the first "Shattering" of the Elden Ring (the Greater Will) where many runes were displaced or lost, leading to the rise of other Demigods like the Gloam Eyed Queen, each trying to be directed by the Two Fingers of the Greater Will.
3. The weapon Cinquedea is named after a real Italian weapon that was a sword with a broad blade roughly 5 fingers across, thus the name Cinquedea or 5 Fingers. This weapon's flavor text states that the 5 finger design is representative of the gift of intelligence given to the Beastmen, the same Beastmen that were clerics of Farum Azula, the same Beastmen that seem to be the basis for each Shadow that the Two Fingers sends to "help" their Empyreans. It's likely they were granted intelligence by the Greater Will of the time and fashioned the 5 finger blade in honor of their god.
Something about your thumbnail text reminded me of Miriel's text when you give him a spellbook: Heresy is not native to the world; it is but a contrivance. All things can be conjoined.
The secret vassal of the Frenzied Flame... Miriel, Pastor of Vows.
In terms of how Shabriri got hold of Bloody Finger Hunter Yura‘s body, if you follow Yura‘s questline, you‘ll notice that Yura is feeling unwell. I think it‘s on the Bridge to the Academy of Raya Lucaria, after you help him defeat the Ravenmount Assassin where he states „Wretched worms, leave me be…“. An indication perhaps, that he has been eating Shabriri Grapes.
Great video. Love the kings field background music:)
Everytime a game offers concept of Nihilism, i always take it.
okay you convinced me, this is my favorite ending now
I wanted to note on the flame of frenzy->crucible comparison, the crucible knights set mention that their association with chaos is what had them lose favor. And in addition the point that a crucible needs a flame to function. Both of which point further to the association
Melting all away into one is almost like.... The Crucible?!!
I,m currently intrested miquella and I,m starring to see really good theories regarding him , cruise to see your take on him
I feel like Melina addressing the player at the end of the frenzy ending doesn’t really hit the same way if the player dies upon kicking off the end of the world.
What I’m wondering is how does the Lord of Frenzy or Melina still exist if the universe has been burned away? What else survived the flame?
I see no evidence that everything has been burned away. None of the Eldritch Gods have been shown to have such global power, so why would the Frenzied Flame be any different. We are, more likely, going on a long march to burn it all away. Furthermore, the Flame doesn't seem to persist as Melina picks up the Whistle from a place where the player, as Lord of Frenzied Flame, had to have been previously. So Melina and lots of others can easily have survived by being somewhere else.
And burning the universe, which would include all other Eldritch Gods, seems like a... long term goal at best.
I took it as you are just burning away The Lands Between or the “planet” The Lands Between is on.
personally i dont find it unreasonable to think that the flame of frenzy's consumption of the world isnt instant, clearly the erdtree takes a couple seconds to start flaring up so who knows how long it would take to consume the lands between (but probably not more than a couple hours)? Maybe melina is trying to stop this from continuing before she too dies? As for the lord of frenzied flame I assume they're a martyr that has to suffer the pain of wielding the flame of frenzy or something to grant an end to the suffering of everything else. keep in mind this is all baseless
You cleary dont destroy everything in a instant with the flame of frenzy.
The lord of frenzy is an outer/elder god just like the Elden Beast. Two Fingers represents the Elden Beast and order, like some people believe the Pope might represent the Christian God in real life. Three Fingers represents the Lord of Frenzy who is another god. They exist for the most part outside, and only physically manifest in some circumstances. At the end of the game we force the Elden Beast to manifest by killing Radagon. Theoretically there might be a way to get the Lord of Frenzy to manifest, but there is no way to do it in game.
Also, I really don’t think anything survived the flame besides the outer gods themselves. It takes time to burn everything. Fires spread over time. Nothing survived by the end. The horror of that ending is that the world slowly burns into nothing, and all you can do is watch as everyone around you dies.
A few things: As to Vyke and him protecting his finger maiden in the church of inhibition, it's definitely a maiden at least. Aside from the outfit she's wearing, one other bit of confirmation is that for Varre's quest you need a Finger Maiden's blood on a cloth and the only two possible options in the game are that Maiden in the church or one all the way at the start of the Chapel of Anticipation where you started the game (from presumably the Maiden that was to be the player's but who died waiting).
As to your interpretation of the 3 Fingers, I think it's strong, but there's something you should also consider that you said yourself - those who follow the frenzied Flame are liars and they know how to possess bodies. Hyetta is a form of this as well, as Hyetta has possessed Irina of Morne's body from after she died (she won't appear until Irina dies in her quest and Edgar is sent onto his vengeance). So one other possibility is that the 3 fingers represented some other aspect of the greater will, but were slain by the fingerslayer blade, then possessed by the Flame of Frenzy, and in turn, the player once those fingers embrace the player (since after they disintegrate). That would make the Flame of Frenzy still some form of an Outer God, but one so powerful as to possess divine fingers of the Greater Will.
You can go around the side of Castle Stormveil and meet Hyetta before ever talking to Irina,then you can do Irina's quest. Maybe the intention was to make Hyetta like Shabriri at one point, but no longer.
@@briggy4359 Except no, that's not true. Go ahead and try it. Start a new game, go to the third grace to pick up Torrent, and go to where Hyetta first appears using the the workaround path past Stormveil. She won't be there. Not even after a reload of the grace once you're warped to Roundtable hold.
I don't know why but From's cut contents in this game seem to be quite important to the lore.....
I wonder if they were planning to do something with Melina if you are able to acquire Miquella’s needle. It felt really strange to go through all that effort to spare her, and then to never see her again.
I've only ever done the flame of frenzy ending for all my playthroughs soley because i feel horrible for the merchants, all the ones we meet are friendly and generally well mannered, they've been dealt a great injustice by the world, and for that, I will incinerate the world as punishment for my bros
If it only affected The Lands Between, i’d find this ending more appealing. Getting revenge for the merchants might feel good (though none of them ever actually say they want revenge AFAIK) it comes at the cost of presumably the whole world. Zorayas included. That cannot stand.
Human Instrumentality Project: Elden Ring Edition.
Bro... The Chrono Trigger track... **chef's kiss**
I like to think when the frenzied flame ending happens all the trapped ones under Lyndell break free and help burn the lands between and punish those who trapped them long ago with help from the frenzied flame
the way hyetta talks, the frenzy ending sounds like the “reversion to a primordial state”. and yes memes aside 2+3 = 5. which further implies that the 2 and 3 hands aren’t opposed by fragments of a whole
I subscribed as soon as I heard the Chrono Trigger music 😂 good video!
Every time I hear about another cut quest, I get a little salty, because they all seem so good! I really hope they keep adding more content like they did with that first update, I don't want it to all be forgotten...
Love the content 😊 I'm so glad to get more explanation... but if you had the time, something like this vid combined with the last one is my preference. I understand you put a lot of work into your editing, productive, and writing and lengthy videos might not be practical (or worth it, with the way ad revenue works), and I'm happy with what we get.
Shibiri possessing other characters sounds like that unreleased questline about the silver tear mimic who would possess your body.
I really like the conjecture that the Three Fingers are closely tied to the Greater Will, instead of being a separate outer god and entity like the others mentioned (the Formless Mother, the Moon and Stars potentially, the God of Rot etc.), I think it makes a lot of sense going off what Hyetta states and the shared imagery of the fingers.
If I were to push a theory that delves into further speculation regarding the shared origin of the fingers, and the schism that caused the ideological divide between them from ancient times, my guess is that it somehow relates to the prior age of antiquity when the civilization of Farum Azula prospered, under the dragons and the very advanced beastmen. I think that this civilization was actually tied to the Greater Will as well, since Placidusax is stated as being a previous Elden Lord from the age before the Erdtree's advent and hegemony. Furthermore, I believe that the symbol of the FIVE fingers was related to the Greater Will's power and control, its authority over that world before it apparently left or faded. The Cinquedea may furnish some evidence: "The design celebrates a beast's five fingers, symbolic of the intelligence once granted upon their kind." Furthermore, it is beastly shadows that act as regulators of the Two Finger's will for Empyreans, such as Maliketh, Blaidd and maybe even Serosh for Elden Lords too. Whatever cataclysm caused the fall of Farum Azula may have precipitated the schism in ideology that led to a split between the two and three fingers that used to be a unified five, due to the initial fracturing of the world and its aftermath? It may be that the Great Tree and its Crucible of life that predated the Erdtree was the initial world tree of power from that epoch as well, perhaps?
Either way, just some food for thought, I wanted to try and link your theories and speculation on the Flame of Frenzy with my own theories relating to how Farum Azula was intertwined with the lore of the Greater Will. Great video as always, well done dude!
I wonder if the fracturing that took place with the One Great has something of a double meaning. Like a bone fracture? The 5 fingered "hand of god" breaking into the Two and Three Fingers.
The Fingerslayer Blade is stained with blood, suggesting that the Eternal City have already used it to slay Fingers.
Could this have been what caused the fracture of the One Great? Could this have been the high treason committed by the Eternal City?
Thanks for another dope video.
I could have sworn there was dialogue that directly states that the three fingers came from the greater will. I thought maybe it was something enia said but I just looked and can't seem to find it so maybe I'm mistaken.
Im probably not the first to say this but the flame of frenzy gives me a lot of neon genesis evangelion vibes. Its a very popular anime and i would not be shocked to find that miyazaki knows of it. If you don't know what its about I'll quickly go over whats relevant to the discussion. Its a similar dilemma but focuses much more on interpersonal relationships. The main character struggles with relating to people and is presented with a choice to keep struggling because of the potential joy that comes from interacting with other human beings or to allow all humanity to become one. He would never feel the pain of being misunderstood or rejected again but he would also never feel the joy that other people can bring into your life. I get the feeling it wouldnt be great it wouldnt be horrible it would just be kinda okay... for eternity lol. I think the state of being in the translations is referred to as a 'primordial soup' which the crucible obviously parallels.
Of course the optimistic ending is keep struggling because somewhere out there is a person who understands you!
When it comes to elden ring; the contempt the general populous shows towards shabriri and the wandering merchants is something they have in common. Their greatest source of suffering can be traced back to human relationships much like the main character from evangelion.
It's interesting how you talked about melting things to become one. It reminds me of entropy in physics. Entropy is associated with Chaos such that when an enclosed system/environment is left alone, its entropy will increase and one result of this is that every part of the system will be mixed together.
I wonder if the flame of frenzybis similar to the flame of chaos in any way. Afterall, chaos was uncontrollable, and devours everything in its path too...
I think one detail to compound the idea that Shabriri is the true person guilty of aligning with the frenzied flame, not the great caravan, is the fact that you find out about the Miquella's Needle through one of the merchants' info notes, found inside the place they were entombed. If they wanted the frenzied flame to take over, why would they write down the means to defeat it?
I think Shabriri was the first being to ever get a glimpse of the frenzied flame, but his suffering alone wasn’t enough. He needed enough suffering to actually summon the frenzied flame, that’s why he slandered the great caravan. The great caravan members were then all rounded up in one place and their combined suffering from being falsely accused caused them to do exactly what Shabriri wanted them to do and summon the frenzied flame. Shabriri might have had his eyes gouged out when it was revealed he falsely accused them, but he was still smiling because he got exactly what he wanted as suggested by the shabriri’s woe talisman.
@@timmoh very cool theory
I see one issue tho. If the frenzy began with Shabriri, then it means he was already frenzied when the caravan thing happened, but his talisman seems to imply he developed the frenzy after having his eyes gouged out
I agree Ratok, if the 3 + 2 make a whole hand and the crucible was the origin of the GO and Erdtree, I believe the Flame Of Frenzy is what’s left after the part that is the Golden Order left for more civilised heights