I must’ve had my microphone closer to my face than usual while recording this because the amount of inhaling I had to edit out was unprecedented-that was probably why the editing took so long at all. *Read the recent [as of commenting] community post:* ruclips.net/user/postUgkxPv_aLBjMOfcCUN51M9vIkTEP5fm6BumQ
I haven't read or watched any Grishaverse but it doesn't surprise me that any Romani-inspired people in a fantasy story aren't portrayed great; it's sadly way too common. There were also definitely details in your recounting of the history that I wasn't aware of even if I knew its broad strokes. Definitely something I wish more people were more aware of
one of the best videos ive ever seen. since the first book id ever read from her, i’ve seen l. bardugo criticized for her lack of care/research/time/concern regarding the cultures of the people she’s writing about, but being non-european, didn’t pick up on the specific anti-romani stereotypes. good on you for not continuing in this series, as even before this video, i thought the treatment of zoya and her half-romani heritage, was really poorly done. incredible amount of time and research put into this. just an incredible effort all around.
With the exception of the whole Romanis stealing children trope and the ridiculously long chapter in which Hugo places forth his opinion on Gothic architecture, I thought that Notre-Dame de Paris was a good book... I mean that it was great for a historical novel of its time. Could have done without everyone literally obsessing about Esmeralda, though. Throughout that novel, you really see people sexualizing Esmeralda. Like she had no other character besides being someone's sexual fantasy, including Phoebus. I suspect that the reason for why Hugo revealed that Esmeralda was a French woman that had been stolen as a young child was largely to elicit sympathy for the character. As though being forcibly married, kidnapped (at least twice), arrested and tortured, nearly sexually assaulted (by Don Claude Frollo), before finally being murdered in retaliation by some man who refused to take no for an answer wasn't enough to garner sympathy from readers- including female readers who may have experienced this kind of gender related violence. Anyway, didn't know that Grishaverse was possibly anti-Romani. When I first read the first and second book, I was just focused on how poorly developed Alina's character was more than anything else. The writer doesn't know how to depict strong women characters if they were to slap her across the face. Thank you for posting this video!
Once again a great video from you, commenting to boost it to the wider youtube populace. I was aware of a majority of the facts you presented on Romale oppression but I never even knew that my own home country had banned our Roma population from speaking their own language.
I don't know what kind of divine miracle landed this video on my home page, but thank you so much for making this 🙏 I'm a big fan of Florian's videos and I'm always on the lookout for more informative videos on Romani history and especially on depictions of Romani people in literature. Keep up the good work!
Насколько обидно и несправедливо что люди веками подвергающиеся ужасающей дискриминации включая рабство и холокост до сих пор по большей части не воспринимаются людьми как люди. То как часто я слышу про опасных колдунов и воров про похитителей детей ужасает. Я уже молчу про слюр. Большинство знать не знают что это слюр. И как же бесит что новый прижившийся термин для всяких коучей мошенников это инфо ц*слюр
Okay wow this was dense and FANTASTIC and I'll definitely be coming back for a rewatch (and perhaps to make a proper comment that engages the subject matter) but in the mean time, here is my humble offering for the ever mysterious algorithm! ^_^
As a Slav who's family moved to the US when i was a child, i found myself drawn to the Grishaverse because of the Russian coded fantasy world. It definitely felt like it had a lot of loose stereotyping but the Sunni being Romane people is something i didn't realize - partly i think because of kind of the mixed references that could be thrown in, and partly because i didn't realize to what extent Romane people are so generalized in fantasy. I didn't have enough historical knowledge. I also have enjoyed some very bad fantasy because i get so caught up in my imagination of the stories and characters - i definitely need to pay more attention sometimes 😂 I look forward to checking out some of your other videos especially the Russia in fantasy one and am curious if you have any recommendations for Russian & Russian inspired fantasy you do recommend. Thank you!
I dont read the books this was about, but im so glad it got on my feed, bc while i know enough to see cultural violence, this video helped me see some of the extra nuances that aren't widely discussed. Especially in the western lense! Thank you!
Thanks for this video, anti-roma stuff in fantasy is all too commen so it's important to have these conversations. Your research is also deeply appreciated. As an English speaking non-Roma I'm always looking for new information on these topics (I had heard about the chattle slavery in Romania but never in any detail for example)
Ancestry tests revealed my mother and her brother have remote Roma ancestors (my results didn't indicate anything, but I guess there are too many generations between us). Their family tree identified as entirely "German". This ancestor was probably from hundreds of years ago, so no one can identify where this person came from. I'm sure many more people with ancestors from Europe and Russia are part Roma than they realize.
О господи Гришаверс и все его абсурдные базовые ошибки. Мне так обидно, потому что потенциал ведь есть, но он потрачен в никуда. Россия страна большая. Российская империя (главное вроде как вдохновение Равки) еще больше. Столько национальностей, столько аллегорий можно было построить на дискриминации меньшинств. В итоге в Равке только около русские (написанные тоже с минимальным смешным рисерчем) и сули (рома, к сожалению как обычно сведённые к стереотипам), да шуханцы (странная смесь где тоже напутано все) . А я ведь очень радовалась тому что они дали Алине азиатские корни в сериале. Однако и это было написано поверхностно и честно для русского региона логичнее было бы будь ее азиатская сторона центрально-азиатской. Ну а что мне простой казашке, которая хотела наконец-то интересное фэнтези, вдохновленное русскоговорящими регионами, но с этническим разнообразием
this was both incredibly enlightening (glad i never bothered with L. Bard), and so fucking depressing (in part because of the most racist descriptions 'historians' and 'scientists' use to describe a massively diverse group, but also how blatantly exploited Romale are even in current work). how are we not past this level of erasure??
It is truly disheartening how prevasive anti-Romale sentiment is. Growing up in Russia in this day and age (with a part Jewish family no less!) I've heard all the stereotypes as a child without any sort of reflection of how similar some of them are to antisemitic ones and how clearly offensive they had to be. Was also under the impression that the g-word was a word for a profession not people, which is just all kinds of yikes. It took me until I was in university in the states to really reflect on any of that. Most of what I knew of persecution of Romale were the stereotypes I learned as a child and the Holocaust. But I also happened to have some excellent history teachers and professors who took care to point out that Romale were as much persecuted as Jews, and that it weren't even only Ashkenazi Jews from Europe to be affected, but also Sephardi and other Jews from the Ottoman Empire. People who were clearly highly knowledgeable on the subject. All of this should be part of every history curriculum. But that might be very optimistic of me considering that not even asnisemitim is for all it is more talked about in the modern world.
How do you know Xaladitka?! I didn't understand, it is actually not only thing I'm interested. But I wonder how do you communicate with Roma, you studied together or what? I again act dumb but being minority from Russia as well I didn't experience something like that. A few words after video, it is the great work. Thank you!
@@AnarchyOnPage I ask probably very personal questions, sorry if I bother you. Can I ask last stupid one? You say you are polyglot so what languages do you speak fluently or pretty well and learn?
@@podobnozycietakiejest That’s okay. I speak Russian and English fluently, Greek conversationally, Japanese enough to comfortably survive (lol), and Turkish at its basic. Also lots of passive language knowledge like different Slavic languages, especially Bulgarian and Serbian-I can very easily understand written text especially. I am working on a couple others too like Italian and Armenian, hopefully to get them to the same competency level as Japanese but at least to basic like with Turkish.
I must’ve had my microphone closer to my face than usual while recording this because the amount of inhaling I had to edit out was unprecedented-that was probably why the editing took so long at all.
*Read the recent [as of commenting] community post:*
ruclips.net/user/postUgkxPv_aLBjMOfcCUN51M9vIkTEP5fm6BumQ
I haven't read or watched any Grishaverse but it doesn't surprise me that any Romani-inspired people in a fantasy story aren't portrayed great; it's sadly way too common. There were also definitely details in your recounting of the history that I wasn't aware of even if I knew its broad strokes. Definitely something I wish more people were more aware of
one of the best videos ive ever seen. since the first book id ever read from her, i’ve seen l. bardugo criticized for her lack of care/research/time/concern regarding the cultures of the people she’s writing about, but being non-european, didn’t pick up on the specific anti-romani stereotypes. good on you for not continuing in this series, as even before this video, i thought the treatment of zoya and her half-romani heritage, was really poorly done. incredible amount of time and research put into this. just an incredible effort all around.
With the exception of the whole Romanis stealing children trope and the ridiculously long chapter in which Hugo places forth his opinion on Gothic architecture, I thought that Notre-Dame de Paris was a good book... I mean that it was great for a historical novel of its time. Could have done without everyone literally obsessing about Esmeralda, though. Throughout that novel, you really see people sexualizing Esmeralda. Like she had no other character besides being someone's sexual fantasy, including Phoebus.
I suspect that the reason for why Hugo revealed that Esmeralda was a French woman that had been stolen as a young child was largely to elicit sympathy for the character. As though being forcibly married, kidnapped (at least twice), arrested and tortured, nearly sexually assaulted (by Don Claude Frollo), before finally being murdered in retaliation by some man who refused to take no for an answer wasn't enough to garner sympathy from readers- including female readers who may have experienced this kind of gender related violence.
Anyway, didn't know that Grishaverse was possibly anti-Romani. When I first read the first and second book, I was just focused on how poorly developed Alina's character was more than anything else. The writer doesn't know how to depict strong women characters if they were to slap her across the face.
Thank you for posting this video!
Once again a great video from you, commenting to boost it to the wider youtube populace. I was aware of a majority of the facts you presented on Romale oppression but I never even knew that my own home country had banned our Roma population from speaking their own language.
I don't know what kind of divine miracle landed this video on my home page, but thank you so much for making this 🙏 I'm a big fan of Florian's videos and I'm always on the lookout for more informative videos on Romani history and especially on depictions of Romani people in literature. Keep up the good work!
Насколько обидно и несправедливо что люди веками подвергающиеся ужасающей дискриминации включая рабство и холокост до сих пор по большей части не воспринимаются людьми как люди. То как часто я слышу про опасных колдунов и воров про похитителей детей ужасает. Я уже молчу про слюр. Большинство знать не знают что это слюр. И как же бесит что новый прижившийся термин для всяких коучей мошенников это инфо ц*слюр
Okay wow this was dense and FANTASTIC and I'll definitely be coming back for a rewatch (and perhaps to make a proper comment that engages the subject matter) but in the mean time, here is my humble offering for the ever mysterious algorithm! ^_^
commenting for the algorithm!! Amazing work as always Sfar and thank you for making the anglophone writing world a better place.
We will have Elizabeth Olsen’s head with this one 🗣️🗣️‼️‼️
As a Slav who's family moved to the US when i was a child, i found myself drawn to the Grishaverse because of the Russian coded fantasy world. It definitely felt like it had a lot of loose stereotyping but the Sunni being Romane people is something i didn't realize - partly i think because of kind of the mixed references that could be thrown in, and partly because i didn't realize to what extent Romane people are so generalized in fantasy. I didn't have enough historical knowledge. I also have enjoyed some very bad fantasy because i get so caught up in my imagination of the stories and characters - i definitely need to pay more attention sometimes 😂
I look forward to checking out some of your other videos especially the Russia in fantasy one and am curious if you have any recommendations for Russian & Russian inspired fantasy you do recommend. Thank you!
this is very interesting and i like the way you structured the video :)
Thank you so much for your insightful and most helpful thesis. Well done and will hopeful change the' on the fence' minds of many
I dont read the books this was about, but im so glad it got on my feed, bc while i know enough to see cultural violence, this video helped me see some of the extra nuances that aren't widely discussed. Especially in the western lense! Thank you!
Thanks for this video, anti-roma stuff in fantasy is all too commen so it's important to have these conversations. Your research is also deeply appreciated. As an English speaking non-Roma I'm always looking for new information on these topics (I had heard about the chattle slavery in Romania but never in any detail for example)
extremely good and well informed video essay
i have read the book, but I mostly remember The Hunchback of Notre Dame from the Charles Laughten movie.
Ancestry tests revealed my mother and her brother have remote Roma ancestors (my results didn't indicate anything, but I guess there are too many generations between us). Their family tree identified as entirely "German". This ancestor was probably from hundreds of years ago, so no one can identify where this person came from.
I'm sure many more people with ancestors from Europe and Russia are part Roma than they realize.
О господи Гришаверс и все его абсурдные базовые ошибки. Мне так обидно, потому что потенциал ведь есть, но он потрачен в никуда. Россия страна большая. Российская империя (главное вроде как вдохновение Равки) еще больше. Столько национальностей, столько аллегорий можно было построить на дискриминации меньшинств. В итоге в Равке только около русские (написанные тоже с минимальным смешным рисерчем) и сули (рома, к сожалению как обычно сведённые к стереотипам), да шуханцы (странная смесь где тоже напутано все) . А я ведь очень радовалась тому что они дали Алине азиатские корни в сериале. Однако и это было написано поверхностно и честно для русского региона логичнее было бы будь ее азиатская сторона центрально-азиатской. Ну а что мне простой казашке, которая хотела наконец-то интересное фэнтези, вдохновленное русскоговорящими регионами, но с этническим разнообразием
Вот вот, как раз!
this was both incredibly enlightening (glad i never bothered with L. Bard), and so fucking depressing (in part because of the most racist descriptions 'historians' and 'scientists' use to describe a massively diverse group, but also how blatantly exploited Romale are even in current work). how are we not past this level of erasure??
It is truly disheartening how prevasive anti-Romale sentiment is. Growing up in Russia in this day and age (with a part Jewish family no less!) I've heard all the stereotypes as a child without any sort of reflection of how similar some of them are to antisemitic ones and how clearly offensive they had to be. Was also under the impression that the g-word was a word for a profession not people, which is just all kinds of yikes. It took me until I was in university in the states to really reflect on any of that.
Most of what I knew of persecution of Romale were the stereotypes I learned as a child and the Holocaust. But I also happened to have some excellent history teachers and professors who took care to point out that Romale were as much persecuted as Jews, and that it weren't even only Ashkenazi Jews from Europe to be affected, but also Sephardi and other Jews from the Ottoman Empire. People who were clearly highly knowledgeable on the subject. All of this should be part of every history curriculum. But that might be very optimistic of me considering that not even asnisemitim is for all it is more talked about in the modern world.
How do you know Xaladitka?! I didn't understand, it is actually not only thing I'm interested. But I wonder how do you communicate with Roma, you studied together or what? I again act dumb but being minority from Russia as well I didn't experience something like that.
A few words after video, it is the great work. Thank you!
I used to play with Romani children when I was a child (I was not allowed to do this, but I still did).
@@AnarchyOnPage I ask probably very personal questions, sorry if I bother you. Can I ask last stupid one? You say you are polyglot so what languages do you speak fluently or pretty well and learn?
@@podobnozycietakiejest That’s okay. I speak Russian and English fluently, Greek conversationally, Japanese enough to comfortably survive (lol), and Turkish at its basic. Also lots of passive language knowledge like different Slavic languages, especially Bulgarian and Serbian-I can very easily understand written text especially. I am working on a couple others too like Italian and Armenian, hopefully to get them to the same competency level as Japanese but at least to basic like with Turkish.
@@AnarchyOnPage You're amazing!Ευχαριστώ! I'm learning Greek :)