Yeah, felt like DM was waiting for everyone to get into the game before he "introduced his DMPC and hijacked the game" likely expecting since he got short with everyone at that point, (Grognard most of all) that "Sunk Cost Fallacy would kick in and they'd stay with little resistance out of fear of not playing DnD!" I've seen this tactic used ALOT to my disliking by asshole DM like the one in the main story! So frankly even if I dislike Grognard's type! I find myself not just agreeing with him at the end. But happy the DM got his asskicked! Especially since "he struck first and unwarranted" when "Grognard was being the voice of reason" then when GF tried to end it and I'm expecting Grognard even angry would have backed down because she asked him to! The Piece of Shit pushed HER for no good reason so he pretty much DESERVED the beating Grognard gave him. More so after pushing the GF who was saving his dumb ass (who decided to display his "small dick syndrome" with how he acted before with the DMPC! Grognard was right, the loser didn't even need to lie, he knew he made the DMPC so he could indulge BEING THE MAIN CHARACTER! Wondering if OP might have missed some details, like I wonder did the DM describe his DMPC? If he did, I'm sure the Hunter had an "Idealized" description that was similar to the DM! I mean he outright CHEATED with no shame to it either when the party tried to stop him from killing Halfling then just killed Grognard outright with a Rocks Fall when called out) Hope OP group was the only group he could get access to DnD with! That way that restraining order stings ALOT more since he's going to "miss his power tripping moment and remember that ASSwhooping Grognard gave him as well" while he could go online, chances he'd ever find himself DMing again are low and it's ALOT easier to disengage an asshole like this Online by just leaving the Server then it is having to go to a location and feel you didn't waste your time! Grognard has his moments, but he was just a harmless annoyance compared to DM who went from reasonable to A-Hole amazingly quick to the point as said, it's clear this was his DEFAULT behavior and he was just hiding it, Grognard only caused him to "slip" early on before he FULL ON threw off the "disguise of being reasonable person" to reveal he was a Pile of Shit who thinks his victims too invested that they have to "deal with him now" and as OP stated now as DM and the Ass long gone! No they don't and their all happier, Grognard ESPECIALLY because EX DM is not "in it!"
Talk about a plot twist for Story 1. Was fully expecting Grognard to be the problem player, which he was at first. But then he changed. DM just became a grade-A asswipe
The DM always was. Ragnar was a little bit smug but they were all joking around and doing the same thing. The tips were unwanted, but the DM was railroading from the very beginning.
well not really actually it sounded like the group mutually agreed on a path for the sake of making it fun instead of story without breaks in the beginning and the dm immedietly said f u to the group and killed grognards character thinking he manipulated the group when it wasnt the case.
I heard that first story on Two Kobolds in a Trenchcoat, and one of them said something worth repeating: "[Grognard] wasn't the hero we need; he was the hero _that_ DM deserved." ;)
In retrospect, DM (from the first story) had issues the entire time. He was railroading the players from the beginning. Grognard was a problem at first but, when he straightened out, he was okay for months. DM kept complaining about how much work he put into things. That should have been an immediate red flag. He had already shown how much of a hothead he was when he killed Grognard's character the first time. DM's DMPC was an excuse to take out whatever was eating him on the entire table. He openly provoked Grognard because he wanted to pick a fight. Things were already bad enough when he started throwing punches. Shoving an innocent girl went way beyond the line he had already crossed. Hopefully, he sought help or counseling and learned how to control his fits of anger afterwards.
@@damienhailey118 Same here. I mean, Grognard kind of was pushing it early on by being smug and giving the DM tips mid-game (no DM likes that), but to his credit he actually came back and tried to be a better person. Then the DM turned out to be the bad egg by not only introducing a Marty Stu DMPC that insta-killed PCs for disagreeing with him but couldn't take criticism.
Grog exploded and beat the everlasting fuck out of DM after both taking a hit AND assaulting his girl. Y'know what? I stan Grog in this house. He had his issues but realized his problems and course corrected, and the full assault was honestly warranted
@@shadiafifi54he was a little bit smug but the Tipsy was giving was because the DM was railroading and just because he didn't pick up the signals that it wasn't unwanted, the DM should have understood that nobody likes being railroaded. And the DM was not only the one to pick of her fight, but also the one to swing first. Plus, grognard apologized.
Yeah, it definitely sounds like the tips might have been warranted even if they were unwanted. Since in the end it turned out the DM really was a shitty DM after all.
The third story reminds me of a guy (I'll call him Rogue) I had in a group a few year ago, I was starting a new 3.5e campaign with mostly strangers (through a LGS ad) and prior to session zero Rogue questioned why I wanted to play 3.5e and not 5e. I explained to him that it was because I knew 3.5e and didn't know 5e. So he took 20 minutes or so explaining why 5e was "so much better" and when he was done I told him "that's great, but I know 3.5e and not 5e so that's what I'm going to DM", and he let it drop. Session zero and the first two sessions went well and at the end of the second session the players were discussing how much they liked their characters, the game, etc. when I noticed that Rogue wasn't chiming in. So I asked him privately if he was having any problems or issues and he told me that he didn't really like the character he was playing. So I asked him what character would he like to play and he told me a race & class combination I wasn't familiar with (I don't recall what it was) and I asked him what splat-book that was from he told me it was 5e. So I reiterated that we're not playing 5e but if he calls me during the week we can discuss how to tweak his character to make more fun. He didn't call. He joined for the third session but wasn't too involved and when we called it for the night, he brought up to the group that he thought we should switch to 5e and laid out all his reasons why 5e is so much better than 3.5e. I could see some of the other players were intrigued so I decided to shut it down. I told the group that I was DMing 3.5e because it's the system I know but it's everybody's game and if they voted and if it was unanimous we could switch to 5e. Bruce had a very smug look on his face. I then told them that in order to switch to 5e, I'd have to buy the books, then read them and learn the system well enough to DM it. Then I'd have to go through my campaign world and modify it for the new rules. I told them that doing all that would likely take at least 12 to 18 months, and probably more like two years -- provided I didn't lose interest. Bruce no longer looked smug. We took the vote and it was four to keep 3.5e and one for switching to 5e. A couple of days later I had a discussion with Bruce and told him that there were no hard feelings and wished him luck in finding a 5e game, I didn't actually kick him out but he got the hint and didn't show up to any more sessions. The rest of the group continued on and we had a bunch of fun until Covid screwed us all over.
Story #1 - I started off expecting Grognard tp be the core problem but, surprise twist, it was *totally* that DM. I'd even award Grognard brownie points for (somewhat) moderating his behavior after that first confrontation, and for not pressing charges after the blow-up. Glad it has worked out for most of that group, Story #2 - When the DM asks, "Are You Sure?", ALWAYS pause game and rethink. Always. Warlock was given every chance, and the consequences were 100% on him. I do have to wonder though. When the Warlock refused that final chance to survive, what did he THINK was going to happen? Story #3 - Yep, big mistake letting Wizard have his way. If he wanted 5e that bad, HE should have been the one to DM it. Important learning experience for the others. I'd say, ditch 5e and go back to what you know and like. PSA - Never mind the rules or alleged lack thereof. If a Player's game-related actions are truly objectionable, then it's in the DM's power to say "No!" and, if absolutely necessary, arbitrarily freeze and even retcon or rewind whatever happened. This IS kind of the 'nuclear option', strictly last resort, but it is always there. As is straight-out telling that person to leave. If it's the DM that is out of line, Players always have the right to politely object and, if all else fails, simply leave. There are other groups and other DMs. It seems the most common theme in RPG horror stories. A member of the group, Player OR DM, does really bad things, and the rest of the group pretty much hunkers down and puts up with it for far too long. Maybe a few (quiet) objections are raised, but these are either ignored, dismissed, or the guilty party overreacts enough to discourage further tries. Free advice - *This Cr**#p** NEVER gets better on its own.* It just gets worse and worse. If the person refuses to listen, boot them. If they listen but still don't clean up their act, boot them. If they want back in, discuss with group and, IF acceptable to all, let them back in with specific conditions. Boot hard if conditions are not met, no backsies. It's the only way.
Geez, that rules lawyer game sounds like a nightmare. Its one thing to be helpful to a newer dm, but another to play them to make yourself be strong. IMO the one thing the players should not have a say in is system. They dont have to play but the dm is the one that has to deal with the system more than anyone and it affects so much more on their side. Its why i can play so many systems but only run a few. (SWADE, Path2e, and 5e)
Okay, you should not come to blows over a game, but, the DM got exactly what they had coming for pushing things. What's more, the instant you throw the first punch, you accept the consequences. A classic case of someone fing around and finding out. 🤦♀
I cant recall who said it, but theres a saying that goes 'my dream is to not have content to cover/the world not needing me to have this job anymore', and that's a way I tend to view things. The dream is to see the horror stories go away, though its unlikely to ever actually happen.
Heh, I thought Grognard was going to be the villain but he sounds like a pretty decent guy who even accepted his faults and became a better player. DM on the other hand sounds like he F'd around and found out....being a shitty DM, punching a player and pushing his girlfriend? What an ass! Rules Lawyer story sounds like OP got the Wizard from "Xp to Level 3" at his table! 100% agree with OP on the last story. That's how to unambiguously control your table
The Rules Lawyer game with the PF1e to 5e switch is definitely something. Not fully through it yet so we’ll see how this goes. Having played both systems myself, there’s aspects of both I like and dislike. 5e is easier to learn in my experience, and spell casting is much more simple (between all spells having the same DC, rather than having a different dc for each spell level, and the fact that there are actual damage cantrips). PF1e had fewer saves to worry about that scaled, so GENERALLY even a low stat could have a high save dc. Plus it let you use feats much more. On the downside, PF1E is very much a game you HAVE to plan your character from 1-20 in since many feats and such have prerequisites, and stat scaling is MUCH slower (1 point in a single stat every 4 levels, for +5 to a stat), and thus you became reliant on whatever items your DM decides to give you. Which can force you to play something other than what you want to (that happened to me in my previous PF1e game). 5e meanwhile is fairly Rules Light so there’s a lot you have to do to try and set up for situations that fall outside the written rules. That, and you won’t get to use feats very often since rather than getting one every other level (or every level in the Fighter’s Case), you have to pick between boosting your stats, or picking a Feat, so some character concepts never get to that satisfying goal you want.
Rules Lawyer Story. Yeah. I don't think Mirage Arcane works that way either. Wizard only wanted to switch so they could game the system before anyone else caught on.
Same here. Even if we grant that the illusory lake of lava could deal damage, (which, you know, it wouldn't), the spell still takes 10 minutes to cast! This makes it a preparatory spell not a combat spell. In the "enemy army" example, you use it to dissuade the army from advancing into a certain area; and it's not much use in a dungeon environment. I'd love to know more about how Wizard was planning to use it!
Essential lesson for all DMs: Don't ever let players roll for something impossible or unacceptable at your table. The moment you agree to a roll you just agreed it is in fact possible in your game.
That wizard form the third story was more than just an uptight rules lawer. He was also a power gamer/min-maxxer, able to basically ruin any encounter the DM could use with all of those turn removal/shutdown spells he had. And even worse, Wizard was also clearly a filthy meta-gamer. He was literally looking up the stat blocks for monsters he rolled his checks on. That is a MASSIVE nono. The info statblocks have can be GAME BREAKING in the wrong players hands, thats why that info is meant for the DMs eyes ONLY. This also makes the wizard a hypocrite, he acts like a typical hardass rules lawyer, yet he has no problem straight up cheating in PLAIN VIEW of the dm. (And yes, Metagaming is a form of cheating) The only reason he escaped punishment was because the op of that story, the dm, was new to dming. If wizard tried that shit with an experienced dm, his ass would be out the door in no time. God, i can only imagine how much worse wizard would be if he were a dm...
Its sad min maxing gets such a bad wrap just because some idiots hate roleplay and want to "win" dnd. I like playing with the rules and mechanics of the game to make strong characters, its part of the fun for me. However I still give my characters personality and a background, I still roleplay with my friends, I don't throw a tantrum when I get hit or go down, I don't argue the DMs rulings and I ask if my character can do wild things rather than just demanding it work. I want to be useful to the party, not upstage everyone and beat them down. My most min maxy characters are also casters literally built to be as helpful as they are powerful. Like my current CoS character, lvl 6 Swords Bard and lvl 2 Hexblade. Built like a glass canon with a lot of ways to boost ac and avoid damage, still has Healing Word, still gave him Identify to help the party finally learn how to use an important magic item, Motivational Speech to give everyone temp hit points, etc... so even though my Bardic Inspiration is going to be spent on my college of swords abilities I am helping my party beyond "Look everyone, me do big number!"
Grog-nard. Like he's a pirate. lol. I can only imagine pirates on the deck of their ship pushing units across a map... (in case you didn't know, it's grow-gnar)
Grognard did not a single wrong. He didn't start out perfect and what did he do? Grew, swallowedhis pride, admit to some stuff on his own side, and be cool.
I sure as heck wouldn't, otherwise you get guys like the Ivan saga Den of the Drake covered, who not only tried to "surprise" the DM but usually would make cheating characters, like a double character Warforge / Gnome. The DM is NOT supposed to be in the dark of how your characters work, so they can make a proper encounter. In contrast the DM is supposed to be your partner in crime, be it asking for homebrew approval, unique flavor to one's class features, or asking questions about certain rulings between sessions. Rules Lawyer AND player vs dm mentality is an awful combo.
I have gotten into IRL fights because of D&D, because of D&D campaigns. It is always the little stuff. Never been times I wanted to punch the DM for killing my character because the purposely gave me disadvantages that caused me to fail save rolls.
Warlock Rage Quits Story. While I completely, whole heartedly believe that group is better off without Warlock; I do find it odd that the DM did make it possible for the players to become the King like this. I mean even if you don't have players like Warlock or even close to Warlock, it cannot end well long term. Bare in mind what King Osric said about the throne room becoming a prison. There should be a near constant, at least daily, stream of people needing the ruler to decide this or that. Subordinates to choose. Instructions to give. And the odd war or three. Not to mention, no one is going to allow the king to go adventuring. Be it the court officials demanding their attention. Or the power hungry nobles that will seek to take the throne in the King's absence. Allowing your player to become royalty, or even high ranking nobility, practically ends their adventuring career.
My party uses all things, even stuff that just comes out. Even Homebrew at times. That being said, we all understand that what the dm says goes if they say no to a spell, item, class, whatever thats it, and we have to provide a source on said thing
Well given that Wizard was using total turn removal shutdown spells...it follows that Silvery Barbs doubles all those spell slots by forcing a 2nd save if the monster passes. Monster passes vs Feeblemind? Silvery Barbs! Monster passes vs Hold Monster? Silvery Barbs! A rules lawyer could also play with the wording of Silvery Barbs to argue that Legendary Resistance is passing a save, which lets Silvery Barbs trigger (and I feel like Wizard would do that)
18:40 "when i didn't, he'd just pull it up on DDB and then correct me if i altered a save DC or AC or anything" if i had a player like that i would ask them to give me one good reason not to give every enemy they face the Banishment spell and change the save be their pc's dump stat.
It's so funny to me that the wizard from the rules lawyer needed to go to 5e to power game. If you know what you're doing in PF1e you can legit be a menace at the table with relatively little investment in a way that truly doesn't compare to 5e.
Wizard would HATE Lamentations of the Flame Princess, lol. No book of "standard" monsters, and magic is nearly as dangerous to the magic user and everyone around them, as it is to any potential target.
While Grognard could be libel with some of the escalating behaviors, the DM is terrible. He was fucking with all the players and was just asking to get into conflict with them. The fact that he threw the first punch means he might of punched any of those players. Things should have been resolved differently, but Grognard was ultimately in the right. He just needs to focus on his behaviors to better relate with the other players. That's pretty minor, though, compared to the DM.
Ragnar's problems was being a little bit smug and jabbing at other players but they were all doing it so that was the culture of the game. He was also giving unwanted tips to the dm, but it wasn't unnecessary things to allow the player to power game or press the win button, but because the DM was railroading everybody and not giving them agency. Which later on manifested into its obvious conclusion with the dmpc
So is a min-maxer the one who looks up op builds or a manchkim? Also how would someone call a person who looks up op builds, but decide that their idea is better (while still using the op build as a form of help) because this is me.
The big difference is primarily intention. If your goal is to be as strong as possible due to an ego flex, wanting to break the game, to try to "win" D&D, ect, then you're doing it wrong. But making a build that's fun is ok. After all, is it power gaming to combine a Half-Orc with the Barbarian class? No because they simply mesh well. Is it power gaming to make a SorcaHexadin with Booming Blade and able to stack a bunch of smites while only needing one stat to be a super powered god among characters? Probably, but if people are playing powerful builds TOGETHER without one-upping each other, it's perfectly fine.
The in the second story should not have let the players change the system. Its his game and if they want to play a different system the guy wanting to switch to 5.0 can run a game next week.
Gotta say the first story is just a shitty dm and the players just going with it, sounds like the player problem honestly needed a better DM. OP is literally just making excuses for a shit DM for most of this.
K I'm just gonna say, that first story probably wasn't real, or was exaggerated beyond recognition. The tone shifts sound manufactured as the 9 hells. It seems really weird for op to make jokes while talking about someone getting beat to the point of making death saves.
![YoungBoy Never Broke Again - Catch Me [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KxwEXXFQMTY/mqdefault.jpg)
Grognard is definitely not the A-hole. He did have problems, but improved and apologized. The DM, however, was just a manchild indulging his fanfic
Yeah, felt like DM was waiting for everyone to get into the game before he "introduced his DMPC and hijacked the game" likely expecting since he got short with everyone at that point, (Grognard most of all) that "Sunk Cost Fallacy would kick in and they'd stay with little resistance out of fear of not playing DnD!" I've seen this tactic used ALOT to my disliking by asshole DM like the one in the main story! So frankly even if I dislike Grognard's type! I find myself not just agreeing with him at the end. But happy the DM got his asskicked! Especially since "he struck first and unwarranted" when "Grognard was being the voice of reason" then when GF tried to end it and I'm expecting Grognard even angry would have backed down because she asked him to! The Piece of Shit pushed HER for no good reason so he pretty much DESERVED the beating Grognard gave him. More so after pushing the GF who was saving his dumb ass (who decided to display his "small dick syndrome" with how he acted before with the DMPC! Grognard was right, the loser didn't even need to lie, he knew he made the DMPC so he could indulge BEING THE MAIN CHARACTER! Wondering if OP might have missed some details, like I wonder did the DM describe his DMPC? If he did, I'm sure the Hunter had an "Idealized" description that was similar to the DM! I mean he outright CHEATED with no shame to it either when the party tried to stop him from killing Halfling then just killed Grognard outright with a Rocks Fall when called out)
Hope OP group was the only group he could get access to DnD with! That way that restraining order stings ALOT more since he's going to "miss his power tripping moment and remember that ASSwhooping Grognard gave him as well" while he could go online, chances he'd ever find himself DMing again are low and it's ALOT easier to disengage an asshole like this Online by just leaving the Server then it is having to go to a location and feel you didn't waste your time! Grognard has his moments, but he was just a harmless annoyance compared to DM who went from reasonable to A-Hole amazingly quick to the point as said, it's clear this was his DEFAULT behavior and he was just hiding it, Grognard only caused him to "slip" early on before he FULL ON threw off the "disguise of being reasonable person" to reveal he was a Pile of Shit who thinks his victims too invested that they have to "deal with him now" and as OP stated now as DM and the Ass long gone! No they don't and their all happier, Grognard ESPECIALLY because EX DM is not "in it!"
@@paulman34340Damn dude, nice essay. Agreed tho 👍
@@oldmanshinji9662 Thanks 😊
Certified NTA moment here 💀 💅
Agreed, Grognard was a Chad. Dude tried to get along and only defended himself and his girlfriend. GG.
Talk about a plot twist for Story 1. Was fully expecting Grognard to be the problem player, which he was at first. But then he changed.
DM just became a grade-A asswipe
The DM always was. Ragnar was a little bit smug but they were all joking around and doing the same thing. The tips were unwanted, but the DM was railroading from the very beginning.
well not really actually it sounded like the group mutually agreed on a path for the sake of making it fun instead of story without breaks in the beginning and the dm immedietly said f u to the group and killed grognards character thinking he manipulated the group when it wasnt the case.
I heard that first story on Two Kobolds in a Trenchcoat, and one of them said something worth repeating: "[Grognard] wasn't the hero we need; he was the hero _that_ DM deserved." ;)
That first DM really f***d around and found out
In retrospect, DM (from the first story) had issues the entire time. He was railroading the players from the beginning. Grognard was a problem at first but, when he straightened out, he was okay for months. DM kept complaining about how much work he put into things. That should have been an immediate red flag. He had already shown how much of a hothead he was when he killed Grognard's character the first time. DM's DMPC was an excuse to take out whatever was eating him on the entire table. He openly provoked Grognard because he wanted to pick a fight. Things were already bad enough when he started throwing punches. Shoving an innocent girl went way beyond the line he had already crossed. Hopefully, he sought help or counseling and learned how to control his fits of anger afterwards.
Why doesn't a witch wear a flat hat?
Because there's no point to it.
Did you ever see the family of a falmer?
No?
They neither
@@eddy_malouempereur_du_cong6536 neither the dwemer
Why couldn’t the skeleton use bardic Inspiration?
Because it lost it’s trombone.
Y'know, i can't even be too mad at Grognard, especially since he struck second
Yep. I was kinda expecting it all to be Gragnard's fault, but I agreed with him eight out of ten times.
@@damienhailey118 Same here. I mean, Grognard kind of was pushing it early on by being smug and giving the DM tips mid-game (no DM likes that), but to his credit he actually came back and tried to be a better person. Then the DM turned out to be the bad egg by not only introducing a Marty Stu DMPC that insta-killed PCs for disagreeing with him but couldn't take criticism.
Grog exploded and beat the everlasting fuck out of DM after both taking a hit AND assaulting his girl. Y'know what? I stan Grog in this house. He had his issues but realized his problems and course corrected, and the full assault was honestly warranted
@@shadiafifi54he was a little bit smug but the Tipsy was giving was because the DM was railroading and just because he didn't pick up the signals that it wasn't unwanted, the DM should have understood that nobody likes being railroaded. And the DM was not only the one to pick of her fight, but also the one to swing first. Plus, grognard apologized.
Yeah, it definitely sounds like the tips might have been warranted even if they were unwanted. Since in the end it turned out the DM really was a shitty DM after all.
That first story certainly switched in term of who the problem person was going to be.
The third story reminds me of a guy (I'll call him Rogue) I had in a group a few year ago, I was starting a new 3.5e campaign with mostly strangers (through a LGS ad) and prior to session zero Rogue questioned why I wanted to play 3.5e and not 5e. I explained to him that it was because I knew 3.5e and didn't know 5e. So he took 20 minutes or so explaining why 5e was "so much better" and when he was done I told him "that's great, but I know 3.5e and not 5e so that's what I'm going to DM", and he let it drop.
Session zero and the first two sessions went well and at the end of the second session the players were discussing how much they liked their characters, the game, etc. when I noticed that Rogue wasn't chiming in. So I asked him privately if he was having any problems or issues and he told me that he didn't really like the character he was playing. So I asked him what character would he like to play and he told me a race & class combination I wasn't familiar with (I don't recall what it was) and I asked him what splat-book that was from he told me it was 5e. So I reiterated that we're not playing 5e but if he calls me during the week we can discuss how to tweak his character to make more fun.
He didn't call. He joined for the third session but wasn't too involved and when we called it for the night, he brought up to the group that he thought we should switch to 5e and laid out all his reasons why 5e is so much better than 3.5e. I could see some of the other players were intrigued so I decided to shut it down. I told the group that I was DMing 3.5e because it's the system I know but it's everybody's game and if they voted and if it was unanimous we could switch to 5e. Bruce had a very smug look on his face.
I then told them that in order to switch to 5e, I'd have to buy the books, then read them and learn the system well enough to DM it. Then I'd have to go through my campaign world and modify it for the new rules. I told them that doing all that would likely take at least 12 to 18 months, and probably more like two years -- provided I didn't lose interest. Bruce no longer looked smug.
We took the vote and it was four to keep 3.5e and one for switching to 5e. A couple of days later I had a discussion with Bruce and told him that there were no hard feelings and wished him luck in finding a 5e game, I didn't actually kick him out but he got the hint and didn't show up to any more sessions. The rest of the group continued on and we had a bunch of fun until Covid screwed us all over.
Best way yo stop someone from taking over your game. Nice move by making them realize it would take a long while to get things up and running again.
Story #1 - I started off expecting Grognard tp be the core problem but, surprise twist, it was *totally* that DM. I'd even award Grognard brownie points for (somewhat) moderating his behavior after that first confrontation, and for not pressing charges after the blow-up. Glad it has worked out for most of that group,
Story #2 - When the DM asks, "Are You Sure?", ALWAYS pause game and rethink. Always. Warlock was given every chance, and the consequences were 100% on him. I do have to wonder though. When the Warlock refused that final chance to survive, what did he THINK was going to happen?
Story #3 - Yep, big mistake letting Wizard have his way. If he wanted 5e that bad, HE should have been the one to DM it. Important learning experience for the others. I'd say, ditch 5e and go back to what you know and like.
PSA - Never mind the rules or alleged lack thereof. If a Player's game-related actions are truly objectionable, then it's in the DM's power to say "No!" and, if absolutely necessary, arbitrarily freeze and even retcon or rewind whatever happened. This IS kind of the 'nuclear option', strictly last resort, but it is always there. As is straight-out telling that person to leave.
If it's the DM that is out of line, Players always have the right to politely object and, if all else fails, simply leave. There are other groups and other DMs.
It seems the most common theme in RPG horror stories. A member of the group, Player OR DM, does really bad things, and the rest of the group pretty much hunkers down and puts up with it for far too long. Maybe a few (quiet) objections are raised, but these are either ignored, dismissed, or the guilty party overreacts enough to discourage further tries.
Free advice - *This Cr**#p** NEVER gets better on its own.* It just gets worse and worse. If the person refuses to listen, boot them. If they listen but still don't clean up their act, boot them. If they want back in, discuss with group and, IF acceptable to all, let them back in with specific conditions. Boot hard if conditions are not met, no backsies. It's the only way.
It's kind of refreshing hearing the girlfriend being the voice of reason rather than being an accomplice or the source of conflict.
All I have to say about the first story is that violence is never the answer.
It is the subject, and the question is, "How much?"
Geez, that rules lawyer game sounds like a nightmare. Its one thing to be helpful to a newer dm, but another to play them to make yourself be strong. IMO the one thing the players should not have a say in is system. They dont have to play but the dm is the one that has to deal with the system more than anyone and it affects so much more on their side. Its why i can play so many systems but only run a few. (SWADE, Path2e, and 5e)
I seriously hope that Den of the Drake covers the first story. Something like this would be perfect for his channel
Same here, honestly hoping to hear his coverage cuz this is right up his alley.
i instantly figured he would condone the fist fighting, cause i sure as hell did! and honestly i rarely condone violence irl over dnd
I mean of course, given how meat headed that dragon is.
@@ironnoah9461
What do you mean?
Okay, you should not come to blows over a game, but, the DM got exactly what they had coming for pushing things.
What's more, the instant you throw the first punch, you accept the consequences.
A classic case of someone fing around and finding out. 🤦♀
"Don't tell DM what your new abilities are, so you can surprise him"
Seems to be akin to "it's what my character would do..."
Wow
That first one was definitely a horror story
It's like parents at a Chess Tournament
If you let a game rile you up that much, then you shouldn’t play it. If you can’t take criticism, then don’t get mad when criticism comes your way.
I cant recall who said it, but theres a saying that goes 'my dream is to not have content to cover/the world not needing me to have this job anymore', and that's a way I tend to view things. The dream is to see the horror stories go away, though its unlikely to ever actually happen.
Heh, I thought Grognard was going to be the villain but he sounds like a pretty decent guy who even accepted his faults and became a better player. DM on the other hand sounds like he F'd around and found out....being a shitty DM, punching a player and pushing his girlfriend? What an ass!
Rules Lawyer story sounds like OP got the Wizard from "Xp to Level 3" at his table!
100% agree with OP on the last story. That's how to unambiguously control your table
The Rules Lawyer game with the PF1e to 5e switch is definitely something. Not fully through it yet so we’ll see how this goes. Having played both systems myself, there’s aspects of both I like and dislike. 5e is easier to learn in my experience, and spell casting is much more simple (between all spells having the same DC, rather than having a different dc for each spell level, and the fact that there are actual damage cantrips). PF1e had fewer saves to worry about that scaled, so GENERALLY even a low stat could have a high save dc. Plus it let you use feats much more.
On the downside, PF1E is very much a game you HAVE to plan your character from 1-20 in since many feats and such have prerequisites, and stat scaling is MUCH slower (1 point in a single stat every 4 levels, for +5 to a stat), and thus you became reliant on whatever items your DM decides to give you. Which can force you to play something other than what you want to (that happened to me in my previous PF1e game). 5e meanwhile is fairly Rules Light so there’s a lot you have to do to try and set up for situations that fall outside the written rules. That, and you won’t get to use feats very often since rather than getting one every other level (or every level in the Fighter’s Case), you have to pick between boosting your stats, or picking a Feat, so some character concepts never get to that satisfying goal you want.
Rules Lawyer Story. Yeah. I don't think Mirage Arcane works that way either. Wizard only wanted to switch so they could game the system before anyone else caught on.
Same here. Even if we grant that the illusory lake of lava could deal damage, (which, you know, it wouldn't), the spell still takes 10 minutes to cast! This makes it a preparatory spell not a combat spell. In the "enemy army" example, you use it to dissuade the army from advancing into a certain area; and it's not much use in a dungeon environment. I'd love to know more about how Wizard was planning to use it!
That fight was brilliantly written.😂
Essential lesson for all DMs: Don't ever let players roll for something impossible or unacceptable at your table. The moment you agree to a roll you just agreed it is in fact possible in your game.
That wizard form the third story was more than just an uptight rules lawer. He was also a power gamer/min-maxxer, able to basically ruin any encounter the DM could use with all of those turn removal/shutdown spells he had. And even worse, Wizard was also clearly a filthy meta-gamer. He was literally looking up the stat blocks for monsters he rolled his checks on. That is a MASSIVE nono. The info statblocks have can be GAME BREAKING in the wrong players hands, thats why that info is meant for the DMs eyes ONLY. This also makes the wizard a hypocrite, he acts like a typical hardass rules lawyer, yet he has no problem straight up cheating in PLAIN VIEW of the dm. (And yes, Metagaming is a form of cheating) The only reason he escaped punishment was because the op of that story, the dm, was new to dming. If wizard tried that shit with an experienced dm, his ass would be out the door in no time. God, i can only imagine how much worse wizard would be if he were a dm...
Its sad min maxing gets such a bad wrap just because some idiots hate roleplay and want to "win" dnd.
I like playing with the rules and mechanics of the game to make strong characters, its part of the fun for me. However I still give my characters personality and a background, I still roleplay with my friends, I don't throw a tantrum when I get hit or go down, I don't argue the DMs rulings and I ask if my character can do wild things rather than just demanding it work.
I want to be useful to the party, not upstage everyone and beat them down. My most min maxy characters are also casters literally built to be as helpful as they are powerful. Like my current CoS character, lvl 6 Swords Bard and lvl 2 Hexblade. Built like a glass canon with a lot of ways to boost ac and avoid damage, still has Healing Word, still gave him Identify to help the party finally learn how to use an important magic item, Motivational Speech to give everyone temp hit points, etc... so even though my Bardic Inspiration is going to be spent on my college of swords abilities I am helping my party beyond "Look everyone, me do big number!"
Player: I want to do something we agreed to never do
DM: ok, roll
Player: whats the DC?
DM: 1+whatever you can get. now roll, right out the door.
Grog-nard. Like he's a pirate. lol. I can only imagine pirates on the deck of their ship pushing units across a map...
(in case you didn't know, it's grow-gnar)
Grognard did not a single wrong. He didn't start out perfect and what did he do? Grew, swallowedhis pride, admit to some stuff on his own side, and be cool.
17:39 Ooookay, how many DMs out there would put up with that? Raise your hands...
I sure as heck wouldn't, otherwise you get guys like the Ivan saga Den of the Drake covered, who not only tried to "surprise" the DM but usually would make cheating characters, like a double character Warforge / Gnome. The DM is NOT supposed to be in the dark of how your characters work, so they can make a proper encounter. In contrast the DM is supposed to be your partner in crime, be it asking for homebrew approval, unique flavor to one's class features, or asking questions about certain rulings between sessions. Rules Lawyer AND player vs dm mentality is an awful combo.
Hi Doge - how goes it? Looks like Lucky is keeping us on our toes and making sure we like and comment.
Grognard is a bit of a problem, but the DM is the real issue, at least with how the OP frames the story.
I have gotten into IRL fights because of D&D, because of D&D campaigns. It is always the little stuff. Never been times I wanted to punch the DM for killing my character because the purposely gave me disadvantages that caused me to fail save rolls.
Warlock Rage Quits Story. While I completely, whole heartedly believe that group is better off without Warlock; I do find it odd that the DM did make it possible for the players to become the King like this. I mean even if you don't have players like Warlock or even close to Warlock, it cannot end well long term. Bare in mind what King Osric said about the throne room becoming a prison. There should be a near constant, at least daily, stream of people needing the ruler to decide this or that. Subordinates to choose. Instructions to give. And the odd war or three. Not to mention, no one is going to allow the king to go adventuring. Be it the court officials demanding their attention. Or the power hungry nobles that will seek to take the throne in the King's absence. Allowing your player to become royalty, or even high ranking nobility, practically ends their adventuring career.
It's called the consequences of one's actions. The best way to learn that is through experience.
My party uses all things, even stuff that just comes out. Even Homebrew at times. That being said, we all understand that what the dm says goes if they say no to a spell, item, class, whatever thats it, and we have to provide a source on said thing
Personally, I don't think silvery barbs is broken at all, but if your dm tells you you can't use it, you need to respect that.
It all depends on how often the casters rest and recover spell slots.
Well given that Wizard was using total turn removal shutdown spells...it follows that Silvery Barbs doubles all those spell slots by forcing a 2nd save if the monster passes. Monster passes vs Feeblemind? Silvery Barbs! Monster passes vs Hold Monster? Silvery Barbs! A rules lawyer could also play with the wording of Silvery Barbs to argue that Legendary Resistance is passing a save, which lets Silvery Barbs trigger (and I feel like Wizard would do that)
(Reads thumbnail title)
So like the average Monopoly game?
Or Mario Kart
@@kevindavis4456
*Rainbow Road flashbacks INTENSIFY!!*
Lucky has the prettiest little voice!!
Literal "rocks fall, you die" lol
IRL D&D Fight Story. If you use physical violence when attacking some one, i.e. punch them, you are, imho, consenting to getting your butt kicked.
Do you think Lucky would be a Bard? What archetype do you think they would be?
Monday Doge time!
The second tale wasn't a horror story. It was a feel-good one.
18:40 "when i didn't, he'd just pull it up on DDB and then correct me if i altered a save DC or AC or anything" if i had a player like that i would ask them to give me one good reason not to give every enemy they face the Banishment spell and change the save be their pc's dump stat.
Dude forgot he was in the real world, where PvP is always enabled.
In the second story, it sounds like all the other players wanted to end warlock
It's so funny to me that the wizard from the rules lawyer needed to go to 5e to power game. If you know what you're doing in PF1e you can legit be a menace at the table with relatively little investment in a way that truly doesn't compare to 5e.
Wizard would HATE Lamentations of the Flame Princess, lol. No book of "standard" monsters, and magic is nearly as dangerous to the magic user and everyone around them, as it is to any potential target.
From table top to LARP
While Grognard could be libel with some of the escalating behaviors, the DM is terrible. He was fucking with all the players and was just asking to get into conflict with them. The fact that he threw the first punch means he might of punched any of those players.
Things should have been resolved differently, but Grognard was ultimately in the right. He just needs to focus on his behaviors to better relate with the other players. That's pretty minor, though, compared to the DM.
Ragnar's problems was being a little bit smug and jabbing at other players but they were all doing it so that was the culture of the game. He was also giving unwanted tips to the dm, but it wasn't unnecessary things to allow the player to power game or press the win button, but because the DM was railroading everybody and not giving them agency. Which later on manifested into its obvious conclusion with the dmpc
35 is a grognard now??
So is a min-maxer the one who looks up op builds or a manchkim?
Also how would someone call a person who looks up op builds, but decide that their idea is better (while still using the op build as a form of help) because this is me.
The big difference is primarily intention. If your goal is to be as strong as possible due to an ego flex, wanting to break the game, to try to "win" D&D, ect, then you're doing it wrong. But making a build that's fun is ok.
After all, is it power gaming to combine a Half-Orc with the Barbarian class? No because they simply mesh well. Is it power gaming to make a SorcaHexadin with Booming Blade and able to stack a bunch of smites while only needing one stat to be a super powered god among characters? Probably, but if people are playing powerful builds TOGETHER without one-upping each other, it's perfectly fine.
Wizard just seemed really into dnd. Nothing wrong with making an optimized character in my opinion
Arguing with the DM to completely change edition, then grinding the game to a halt to get their own way?
Lol, you must be kidding!
if i get a player so obsessed with the rules they are wiling to both tell the DM they can make changes and the DM cant...ya im booting him
Dawww lucky
“Sometimes men fight” they usually don’t fight about board games
If 2 people consider something important then they're willing to throw hands over it.
Even as something as silly as a board game.
What a Grognargger
Did you say...a freshman in college was dating a 30 something? That's weird as hell as is.
The in the second story should not have let the players change the system. Its his game and if they want to play a different system the guy wanting to switch to 5.0 can run a game next week.
Gotta say the first story is just a shitty dm and the players just going with it, sounds like the player problem honestly needed a better DM.
OP is literally just making excuses for a shit DM for most of this.
Wow, in the first story, violence was the answer. THIS IS A JOKE
I'm only doing this for lucky
Grognard won. Thats all i have to say.
Really refreshing hearing a story where DM’s girlfriend isn’t either condoning the problem or the problem herself.
VOTE FOR LUNALA TO STAY IN THE NIKACHU COMMUNITY POLE, THE MOON GOD SHALL PREVALE.
I'm siding with the wizard in the third one.
K I'm just gonna say, that first story probably wasn't real, or was exaggerated beyond recognition. The tone shifts sound manufactured as the 9 hells. It seems really weird for op to make jokes while talking about someone getting beat to the point of making death saves.
Its likely the writer didn't think that the DM deserve respect.
Of not making light of his near crippling beat down, I know I wouldn't.