Steve from Annapolis Maryland I support you there's another guy that's running his mouth about you saying that you're using the wrong oil and you don't know what you're doing so you need to speak up like you're doing I believe you're a genius engine builder you're very specific keep up the good work Steve from Annapolis Maryland and I don't care where you're from doing a good job and you make sense
Last yr I put together a ford 390 & I used a crower cam that I bought when I was 15 yrs old but never did use. I'm 46 now. That cam sat on my shelf for 30 yrs! But I needed lifters so I bought cheap summit lifters. Worried about a possible problem I bought 20 instead of 16. They were cheap. The break in seemed to go well & after fixing header leaks I still had a tick tick tick. I pulled the intake & checked all the bottoms & I had one I was suspect of but it didn't show any real reason to be ticking. It was pumped up & still had a crown on the bottom. I hold them to a straight edge & look at a light & I can see a crown. But it did have a strange circular pattern the others didn't show. So I replaced the one lifter. Got it going & it was smooth as silk. No tick. It's still running today. I have about 4000 miles on it now with no problems.
Same here buddy!! I used those cheap ass Summit branded lifters on my flat tappet 351w and a Sig Erson cam and it's still going strong with about 3,000 miles on it. I am very surprised by those cheap ass lifters!!
Manufacture's of lifters outsourced their parts supplies from other countries and thru everything in a bin and distributed the parts to every cam and lifter sellers and now thru trying to save a buck are now destroying motors all over the country!
Bingo! A big bin of Chinese lifters built by 12 year olds on the third shift, with mis-machined lifter faces that are being loaded into different brand boxes and shipped globally. Once you see one that’s not right next to a good one, you can spot them by eye. Then rock the lifter on the table and you’ll see it has no crown. The faces are flat and they will not spin. And that’s how you get a 7 min. cam failure. They didn’t spin right.
Open a RUclips channel… in the Middle East… See where your products are truly produced ….. Production…… HAS LEFT THIS COUNTRY.. Nobody wants the labor … But be damned when it’s Just handed to ….
Most good lifters made in America are made by Johnson. In the late 60's I could get them for a small block Chevy for about $1.00 each at the machine shop I worked in. Bill got them by the gorss in a cardboard box. Johnson is still a major supplier but the seller has to tell you or it is a crap shoot. Crower and a couple others state Johnson lifters as one of their choices.
In the '60's and '70's we broke in flat tappet cams and lifters even those with high spring pressures using organic 30 weight and STP! Never a failure. I would recommend having today's stuff cryogenically treated to avoid failure. Personally have had good results.
I used the same method back in the day , never lost a cam , However isky , clay smith, Howard ect or any of the others we always avoided, if it wasn't a factory performance cam we only used Crane cams. because the heat treating issues were a problem back then as well. Fireballs never let us down.
Sometimes it's cheaper and easier to accept the loss and move on. I had this problem 15 years ago with Ford flat tappet race engines. Stopped building engines until I had solution which some customers struggled to understand. Had tool steel lifters made by PPPC in North Carolina and have never had a problem since. The initial cost of the lifter was higher, however, the engines stay together so much longer as the lobe/lifter wear was the primary reason for tear down.
Over 30 years I've not had a flat tappet cam failure, been using comp for 18 years,just done 3 engines about 3 weeks ago,2 of them was the xe274h cam and no problems whatsoever! I do use light valve springs for break in on all engines and Lucas sae30 break in oil.
Yes , exactly. If you know the tapers on the cam are proper and the lifters have a proper convex crown, uniform taper , than there should be NO problems . When you have 120# / 300# pressures than you HAVE to use a light spring . Same here. Looks like a dual spring setup from what it is, never install the inner springs for break-in . A lot of it is self inflicted. Check out the videos from Powell Machine . Lots of information there . I use old worn out big and small block springs and not be lazy about it .
Don't soak the lifters with a high spring pressure cam put lube on the outside and prime the lifters with the oil pump after putting the motor t0gether spin it with the spark plugs out until its got full oil pressure and it'll be fine
Yep, the first few I installed, back in the 80's, I didn't know what cam break-in was, and still never had a problem ! I'd just fire'em up, set it at a high idle (1000rpm), run the lash, (because I didn't know how to properly adjust a hydraulic lifter yet), set the idle, and called it good. And it was, each one was still running ten, hard years later. It wasn't easy to wipe a cam back then, you almost had to be trying to wipe it !
I was going to run a comp flat tappet in my engine im building for my truck. I been seeing all the horror stories with the cams and lifters. I sent it back to summit and just bit the bullet and bought a retrofit hydrolic roller cam and lifters. It did cost almost a $1000 but i figure its worth it considering the amount of money i spent on my forged scat roating assembly.
my camgrinder has always said that stock lifters dont have enough taper.He grinds new lifters with a bigger taper. never had any issue with his cams. was wade cams now clive cams melbourne australia.
*IF* anybody sends or tests the cams just make sure it's one of their OFF THE SHELF grinds. I'm pretty sure their custom grinds are the only one's the big companies are making a good strong effort to meet all the high quality standards. Make sure the cam taper is also checked. - I do believe most people are discovering it's mainly a lifter quality problem.
If I wreck a Comp cam & Comp flat tappet lifter, why would I replace them with Comp roller parts? Bad PR doesn't make people buy more expensive parts from you.
Just went through the summer 68 Chevelle three camshafts later 10 minutes each got tired of that nonsense ended up dropping $1500 in custom roller. Cam works perfect now I can’t find good parts anymore. Doesn’t matter exactly what I’m working on whether it’s gas diesel, new old it’s getting really sickening. I’ll tell you what I mean who pays the bills does the shop pay the bills to the customers pay the bills and who’s fault is this? It’s been the point where I’m thinking about just telling people to find their own stuff and hope to God it works for them.
I whipped out a brand new comp cam last year within 20 minutes of breakin time. I'll not buy another comp cam until I know they are getting things right
Roller cams for me. Never had a Roller cam scrub a lobe. I’ve had fairly decent success with flat tappet cams. I’ve had failures with them too. Too many failures these days. All these failures I don’t believe are from improper procedures. It’s fairly common knowledge the process, pre lube, good break in oil, minimal cranking to fire engine. Specific rpm for a specific time. Rollers are expensive, but so is replacing a flat tappet 1,2,3 times.
There are not too many steel producers left in the US And almost all of the companies moved offshore and or outsource some part of their supply chain or production. Seems like Canada might be the answer. Maybe start a performance parts company based in Canada that used high quality Canadian steel And rigid QA process and provide proper break in oils and procedures Show those big SEMA US based companies how it’s done.
In the early 2000's, Mack trucks had a problem with their EA7-470 engines, the cams were getting destroyed. It turned out to be the roller lifters that drove the high pressure,individual unit,fuel pumps were faulty. It was a particular batch, and some engines were affected, and some were not. The aviation industry had a problem in the past with counterfeit parts getting into supply chains........and its always about suppliers turning a blind eye to cheap items. Its also happened in the semi-conductor industry........cheap knock offs get into batches of the real thing and trouble ensues. But the OP has a good point.........there needs to be an actual investigation.
This problem is not a one off, I built my small block chevy 4 years ago same thing, other builders also. I don't want to replace a cam at this point at all.
Here is the issue. I got this direct from a very smart person at Johnson lifters. All flat tappet lifters built today are cast off shore. The issue is with the cooling of the casting. There is a bit of an art to building lifters that has been lost. Lifters in the casting process must be cooled at a certain rate. This allows the proper silicon and carbon to migrate to the surface of the lifter face. All modern lifter companies are using off shoe lifters that are cooled too quickly thus resulting if a lifter that will never live. As for oils, all the zinc etc oils do not matter. All that matters is proper break in oil. From there oil does not matter. His recommendation is to no longer use flat tappet cams. Wee must use roller cams. This is not what anyone want to hear but that is the fact wether we like it or not. All flat tappet lifters are
Thanks David, this is my argument exactly! Metals chemistry and or metals processing...ie. heat treatment. What makes people think the "quality" is any better on the roller "wheels" and/or roller wheel "needle bearings" on a hydraulic roller lifter? In a nutshell....it's corporate "theft and fraud" on a very large scale. Selling "garbage in a box" for dollars! Please don't tell me that the corps "management" is ignorant of this issue! I'm NOT part of that crowd!
Well just to let you know its not only in auto parts, I bought a new lever gun that would not camber a new round it would game every time, and before that I had bought a new bolt action and the screws that hold the stock on I had to re tap and finish the inside of the stock so yes I know what you are saying .
I’ve seen a few rants by performance parts suppliers and engine builders on Utube.I have noticed that it is just not automotive parts,but nearly everything we grab off the shelves of merchandisers.We are flooded with foreign junk that must be prematurely replaced with more foreign junk,and vendors are getting rich off it.There were many attempts to stop this slide in the 60’s and 70’s,but the quest for profits by our industries and their Government influence prevailed.We will have quality no better than third world countries can supply until these industries return and are held subject to our higher standards.
What I do with all my flat tappet builds is do exactly what GM did with its last flat tappet engines. I grind a flat down the side of the lifter, to bleed oil on the cam. I NEVER have cam problems by doing this. I also use break-in rockers.
I totally agree with you. I have been building engines since the late 70s and haven’t had no real problem till just lately with that same subject. I recently put a cop cam kit in a small block Chevy engine, wiped it out during break in put another one exact same grind. No difference from comp done. The same thing are used to be a big fan of comp cams, but I’ve had several problems including them lately, I’ve checked all the specs as you did. I do not believe it’s an oil problem I believe it a quality problem. When I don’t understand one thing is you know the camshaft companies such as comp know about the problems that’s going on look like they would take it upon themselves for their own good name and rectify it but I love your video and it’s dead spot on
I recently put a new melling cam and lifters in my vortec 454 now every time I fire it up after sitting over night they rattle for about 5 seconds before it builds up oil pressure. Can you explain that?? Junk lifters bleeding down by themselves or something. I’m getting fed up with junk aftermarket crap, it’s so hard to get a quality part these days
Reports from all over of bad lifters. It seems that all that is available is junk, so junk is what they send you whoever they are,. I've got a work truck build planned and I wanted to add a towing cam but now I'm not sure what I'll do. Ain't worth going to rollers, don't want the hassle of solids, but damn sure don't want to be pulling the cam once I've got it in.
used to solid lifter cams on a BBC and SBC Both completely failed on break in. One melted every lifter, one the case hardening crumbled off. both comp. will never buy any of their cams/ lifters again.
Correct.......and the word to describe that is called a...... "MONOPOLY"......this is what happens when the "majority" of citizens become "whores" to their investment portfolios and are ONLY concerned with "profits" and the "predatory mindsets" leading the charge are "praised, emulated and admired"........ regardless of the damage it does to a society.......there is another term to describe where we are at as a "western" culture......"Circling the drain".
After several comments I have been doing some research, some camshaft companies have their flat tappet cam lobes as "flat". The cam lobes must have a slight taper on the cam lobes at .003 to .004 taper per cam lobe. This makes the cam lobes spin as the flat tappets are not flat, but have a slight radius at normally 80 inch radius, some as high as 60 inch radius on the "flat" tappets. If the cam lobes are actually flat or the "flat" tappets actually flat, they will fail no matter what. Just a thought.
This is crazy, I have not wiped a cam either. Always do my same process and have had excellent luck. I use the Lucas 30wt break in oil on the last 3 ft-cams and no issues. Sealed power lifters, Elgin lifters, comp lifters. Comp cam, lunati cam and summit cam. Im hoping I never have these issues but it’s always on my mind.
I also had a comp cam fail during break in. Lifters had the same results as yours holes in them. I have a video posted about it. 5 lifters and 2 totally wiped lobes.
Sorry to say this but the windage tray may be part of the problem. A Flat tappet cam needs a lot of lubrication on the lobes and unless modified most of the lube comes from oil shed at the crank journals that gets "splashed" on the cam from below. The small amount of lube that runs down past the lifter bores is probably not adequate for flat tappet cams.
My friend makes big power with flat tappet cams, but he bought his own lifter facing machine and thats his secret, he finds himself redoing the lifters of many of the top leading brand cam grinders. Thats just the way it is today..
I put a magnet in my oil pan. Then I can look at it through a side hole in the pan with my camera. Inspection when I change oil. I have a truck pan on my 440/ 505 stroker
Have you tried Howard's cams yet? I used to get almost all my parts back in the 90's from P.A.W., and never had an issue with any of their parts. Among the people I knew that built engines, they would give me a blank stare if I mentioned P.A.W. It seems around the last 5-7 years there's been consistent failures with parts. I remember Proform was having problems with aluminum rocker failures. And now even name-brands are having problems with their parts. I'd guess they're cheaping-out on their parts, put it in their name-brand box, send it out. If there's no failires, huge profits. If there's failures here and there, give free replacement parts....they're still making big profits. It can damage their name, but maybe they don't care. They've already "banked".
lunati & howards now make the best flat tappet cams.Also have your can nitrite hardened,about a hundred bucks.Get tool steel lifters,Howards has them of which I am getting ready to use a set on my nitrite hardened lunati cam.Do not expect to have any problems,it is just a shame to have to spend all that xtra money,those lifters are not cheap.About 500 bucks for the solids I am going to run.
I run that same kit in my 400 Pontiac. Set it all up correctly and broke it in correctly using VR1 20w-50. Worked great. Ran it in good. First time I wound it to 6,000 rpm the lifters pumped up and blew 9 of the staple like keepers through the motor. I left them in the pan installed Rhoads fast bleed oil groove lifters never looked back. That was my first and last experience with Comp lifters. Will be making a video of the removal of Comp’s keepers from my oil pan in the next week or two. But! I do like that cam. It’s nasty!
Great video. I'd like to know if any new builds using all vintage NOS cam & lifters have experienced failures. If so, that might support the "bad modern oil" theory. If not, likely a manufacturing issue. I just rebuilt my '67 Corvair engine. Your video and others like it convinced me to reuse my low-mileage cam & lifters from ~1990, only ~10K miles. She fired right up, so far so good. Rollers are not an option for that motor.
I believe they did change the hardening process as soon as they took the zinc out of oil.. So you probably do have 2 different hardness of parts.. Chevy.. VW..Audi ..All had to make quick updates and changes to replacements on even modern cars.. I remember cam problems left and right because of the zinc removal.. Companies had to adapt quick
You actually want two different hardnesses other wise you will have wear.....used to build dies and we always made the slides harder then the pocket it was sliding in...if you didn't you would have gauling
Break the engine in with a set of stock springs, then replace the break in springs with the manufacture recommended springs or an equivalent set of springs with recommended loads & rates.
I just got melling lifters and almost all of them have pitting where the lifter contacts the cam lobe brand new out of the box im guessing these lifters will fail in a short period
Great vid(s) sir. Here's my hypothesis on this after watching several dozen vids and discussions with other people. It's the lifters. There are several machines the lifters are produced from for each brand,I would have to assume. So if you buy a set of 16 it's doubtful that set all came from the same machine/operator and the QC/ tolerances is now the variant. This is why some are failing in a set and not all. The camshaft is one piece that all the lobes are ground in one machine,so having a few lifters bad is highly unlikely a camshafts fault.
I had an Edelbrock RPM cam go flat on at start up, only ran for about 10 minutes. was about 300/ 318 duration with .488/.510 lift. was about 8 years ago.
Seems like a corporate way of pushing us to buy the more expensive roller cams By not paying attention to quality control of there flat tappet products
The lower left of the mission statement front page "ADOPTED NOVEMBER 1992" perhaps that is win the name change occurred. I agree some thing needs to be done and hold some one accountable.
Moto Guzzi motor cycles had a flat tappet fiasco on a engine series.The "fix" was a roller tappet kit from the factory..... plenty of hearts broken amongst the bike owners dealing with the factory when trying on a warranty claim though
A lot of people are getting compromised cams and lifters. I bought a 509/292 hydraulic flat tappet cam shaft back in the late 90s purple shaft and lifters. Has never been broken in but is installed in my 440.
did you do a hardness test? Crower and Isky and others like Engle carry the better mfg lifters, you can Id by looking at the retainer then get those lifters, have you tried with the hole in the lifter face? you can reface those lifters to better than oem lot's of good ideas thanks beware of lifters with big chamfers on the edges they will edge ride on big cams
Get a Hugh's cam and call it a day. For the record not that it means anything but Comp Cams are overrated used one once many many years back when they came on the scene. Now I have been using Ultradyne at least for Mopar's or Hugh's non roller cams last one I built was about six months ago SBM stroker. It was for a friend of mine used a REAL Crower Cam he bought years ago and never used was still in the box. It is a hyd lifter cam around .500 lift I think it came with the lifters he has been running it non stop going to work etc.. no problems so far. In a 4 speed duster runs 12.10 in the quarter no real tuning done it's a 408 ci stroked 360 the older stuff NOS cam and lifters if you can find them are the way to go.
I've not built too many engines but used to do the Rhodes Lifters with the Iskenderian Camshaft combo. Then would use racing oil with STP added in. Didn't have any issues but that was a LONG time ago. I should mention that none of these engines were anywhere near "race" engines.
Back in the day there was an article on a Mopar magazine which I don't remember but the vehicle was called the green brick which they run a roller cam with a regular lifters they put a special coating on them they did not do a breaking they would check the cam after every race with no sign of wear I remember the coating look orange if I remember correctly Hopefully someone knows about it so we could start using it !!🤷♂️
Can you clarify what "Regular Lifters" are ....Regular Roller lifters or regular Flat Tappet lifters ?? ......You can't use Flat tappets on a Roller Cam & Don't need to Break-in a Roller Cam & lifter set......
@@tomstrum6259 regular flat Tappet on a roller cam !!! If I remember correctly!! But they had that coating I would assume that got rid of the tapered contact 🤷♂️
Well, this is just great. Just sent a 427 out the door with a Comp Cams hydraulic flat tappet cam and lifters for a guys 1968 corvette. Now, I wait. Ugh
As long as people continue to buy from the big companies like Comp nothing will change. My solution is to buy from smaller companies that still put a emphasis on quality and stand behind their work and products. Yes, you will pay a little more but, wouldn't it be worth the added cost?
My brother races with a big cube Windsor and flat tappet camshaft . He has never had a problem in 40 years and been using Brad Penn oil for years now . IDK why it works for him but it does . Could ND oil be another direction to try for break in oil ? I see Brad Penn works for him .
Someone needs to do an experiment; new cam, lifters installed, but use lighter valve springs than what's called for. If there's still failures, that'll indicate something. The engine doesn't need the heavy springs just for break-in and light running.
There are no new flat tappets being manufactured anywhere, as all flat tappet lifters have been remanufactured with the bore being honed, and the face, or heal being reground.
When metal is dissolved in acid quality of the metal composition is determined. No other method is truly accurate. Considering the lifters/camshaft is slightly magnetic---metallic dust/particulate matter when mixed with oil becomes grinding compound. GIVE THIS SOME THOUGHT.
Things to check Lobe widths Lobe taper Lobe placement on core relative to lifter bore c/L- lifter should contact in front of lobe c/L Lifter to lobe overhang Lifter fit to lifter bore Lifter rotation CCW Lifter crown Camshaft retention Cam sprocket fit Cam bearing fit Approximately. 300" wide tappet path across lobe- no edge riding. Oil - synthetic Metallurgy- over 50 on C is good Simple
Sorry this took so long, but here are my replies to your comment Arthur with all due respect: Lobe widths: -What are the specs for lobe widths? There are NO spec listings in any Chrysler Service Manuals/the (Early) Direct Connection or the (Later) Mopar Performance Engine building manuals. {I have them all since 1976} as the lobe tapper "ratio" (from edge to edge) would change over a given distance. Right? Chrysler used a 0.904" diameter lifter. Lobe taper: -0.001" to 0.003" {Always Checked in 4 positions per each lobe as it is actually only 1/2 the total "measured" result. {The base circle of the lobe is not ground "flat". It's also ground with a "tapper". Right? } Lobe placement on core relative to lifter bore c/L- lifter should contact in front of lobe c/L: -That's a "visual" determination/reference as again, there are NO numerical Specifications from Chrysler Corp. / Cam manufacturers in relation to the lobe C/L vs the lifter bore C/L. How much distance is enough or to little? Lifter to lobe overhang: ? -Too much of the lifter diameter over the lobe edge? Lifter fit to lifter bore: - Block lifter bore diameter is always checked with a Mitsutoyo [0.0001"] dial bore gauge. There is a factory specification for this dimension. Lifter rotation CCW: - You are obviously a CHEVY builder and know very little about Chrysler's. Thrust plate camshaft engines [some Fords] & all "LA" small block Mopar's [273/318/340/360's] use factory camshafts with 2 pairs of cam lobes angle ground rearward and 2 pairs of cam lobes angle ground forward between each of the 5 camshaft bearings. This stabilizes and cancels out/equalizes the "fore and aft" movement of the cam upon engine RPM acceleration and RPM deceleration (via the helicut gear intermediate oil pump shaft). The result is LESS camshaft movement, therefore less lobe/lifter and camshaft bearing wear. One of the few videos from "Uncle Tony's Garage" explaining/dealing with Flat tappet camshafts & lobe grind angles that is worth while watching: ruclips.net/video/7M-yopGZO94/видео.html Lifter crown: - Physically measured with a flat ground plate/surface and a dial indicator [0.0015" - 0.0025"] Camshaft retention: -The LA "Thrust" plate is NON adjustable, "B & RB" don't require this as a Flat Tappet cam lobe grind angle pushes the camshaft "rearward" into the block against a machined protrusion. The "B & RB" engines with a Roller Cam requires a cam "Button" to "Timing cover" install to limit cam "walk". Just like the BB Chevy. Clearance on a BB Mopar = [0.003"- 0.010"]. Cam sprocket fit: -Full sprocket seating on the cam snout with the LA "thrust plate" & on the ["B & RB" engines] with and without a/the Torrington trust bearing. Cam bearing fit: -Measure and follow the Chrysler/Manufacturers specs! If the cam bearings are out of tolerance or damaged, replace them! Check them for concentricity/alignment with the camshaft you are going to use in THAT particular engine. Especially on the "B & RB" engines! These big blocks are notorious for cam bearing bore shifting as the blocks naturally "stress relieve" themselves from months of thermal cycling. Approximately. 300" wide tappet path across lobe- no edge riding: - Again these are arbitrary "Chevy" specs. The Chrysler lifter is 0.904" in diameter. "Edge to edge" across the lobe "nose" can be common with the .904" diameter Chrysler lifter. This does NOT indicate a faulty "Lobe" wear pattern nor a "bad" lifter. I have put some of these "edge to edge" wear cams on the "Cam Doctor" and measured less than 2% lobe wear after 50,000 + miles! Oil - synthetic: -Agreed Metallurgy- over 50 on C is good: -Agreed Simple: DISAGREE......NOT SO SIMPLE IS IT!!....AND HOW MUCH MORE PER HOUR DO YOU CHARGE YOUR CUSTOMER(S) TO DO ALL THIS EXTRA MEASURING/LABOR WORK FOR A REBUILD? -ALL THIS WORK TO INSTALL A POORLY MADE FLAT TAPPET CAM AND LIFTER SET THAT A FEW YEARS AGO COULD BE INSTALLED "WORRY FREE" AND LIVE FOR 200,000 + MILES WITH THE PROPERLY SCHEDULED OIL CHANGES? This is what contaminated "Electric Arc Furnace" foreign made steels using SCRAP metals as a source gets you instead of using "new/virgin" contamination free "Basic Oxygen Furnace" [BOF] steels when it was produced in North America. Throw in NO Quality Control, questionable heat treatment processes and shit CNC machining operators (10 year old girls from India or poor Mexicans earning $3.00/hour?) and we get what we have now......GARBAGE in a BOX and still sold at a PREMIUM PRICE to the end USA/CANADIAN consumer. Corp just warranties "their" parts, not your "labor" nor the other damaged parts, nor the gasket sets for the repairs. Nor do they hear irate customers venting their frustrations on "you" instead of the real culprit! HEY MR. ENGINE BUILDER, JUST GO TO A ROLLER CAMSHAFT!!! -ROLLER CAMS= [STIFFER VALVE SPRINGS/CUSTOM LENGTH PUSH RODS/ 3 BOLT TIMING CHAIN SETS/ CAM BUTTON/BLOCK or EDDY aluminum head push rod CLEARANCE GRINDING, ETC, ETC..] FOR ANY CHRYSLER THIS ADDS AT A MINIMUM $2500.00 MORE TO AN ENGINE BUILD. Hows that "STOCK" 383 Wedge engine restoration for a 1969 PLYMOUTH ROAD RUNNER SOUND NOW? A 340 in a '73 Duster? -Or a 400/455 Buick Skylark, GS, or Wildcat, a Pontiac Firebird or a Grand Prix or Oldsmobile Cutlass, W30/W31 restoration sound with a 350 Chevy or an LS as a power plant under the hood? There is bugger all choices for roller cams for those "OTHER" GM's. SIMPLE?.....WE are "SIMPLY" witnessing the DELIBERATE "slow motion" destruction of western culture!
today I would just buy a used one (camshaft and lifter) which is in good condition. if I got a problem with a brand. I won't buy them again.if everyone did that. then bad brands would disappear. personally no comp,isky, crower,herbet. I lost 2 camshafts in an engine 3rd survived which I driven for about 10 years. I don't think that the block self healed and that the oil manufacturer changed the oil for the 3rd attempt.
Now that most production engines are running rollers, I’d guess this is going to be a problem. Though you can run an aftermarket roller on a SBC or other common engines - or even any engine with a common lifter bore, what the heck do you do with a Chev 235 “Blue Flame” that has a weird lifter bore, just under an inch? I guess you can sleeve the bore or something and get a custom roller cam made, but this is getting ridiculous. As another interesting point, the company I work for makes fuel injectors and we had heat treating problems back in 2005 or 2006, it was a batch of magnetic pole pieces and the parts were not treated right. Fortunately it affected the magnetic properties enough that they wouldn’t calibrate properly so we could reject the whole batch and didn’t have to wait for the warranty claims on a few thousand injectors.
Between my Comp cam and my Schnider cam, my lifter/lobe failures were on different lobes as well. Powell Machine Inc has a video on hardness testing with cams and lifters. Here's the link to it: ruclips.net/video/DMFikj-TAqo/видео.html
You are absolutely correct. We need to form a group and get organized. And boycott these companies and for the truth to come out. Maybe even start a new company that does things the right way. The old tried and provin way. I have had some of my own ideas. The analysis needs to be done by someone unbiased and not connected to the Automotive industry. Thank you. Have a good evening. Close our wallets!
They are right, if you buy their stuff you have to use their stuff and let them warranty it. You want some advice. You need to use Lubriplate Gear Shield for a assembly lube,
I drive a 99 Mercedes and an 03 BMW because American cars are total junk. I am now in the process of building a 23 t bucket roadster and have 2. new cams and lifters for my build. Now I have to spend more money for a retro fit roller cam kit so I can sleep at night.
Lmao. As a mechanic I can tell you those are two of the worst built cars in the industry. They won’t last over 150,000 with some type of major failure. Have 3 BMW’s on my lot with just over 100,000 that have shot engines. German cars are not what they used to be either. Junk is more like it.
I would be more worried about the machining of the parts. 40 yrs ago there werent that many upgraded modernized parts manufacturing facilities. Quantity over quality by automated facilities. One wrong number inputed to a CNC machine and you have tons of bad parts. Forging of the steel comes out in large batches and is temper tested because they dont know what the steel is being used for, so there is a standard across the board and they test the steel after it is milled. I would look into the process at the manufacturer more then the mills. Either they knowingly purchased substandard material, or it is the machining of the steel itself , either way its on the manufacture. There is no quality, people want fast and cheap to buy more for the dollar and they want it "now" and not wait.... this is the era we live in. Disposable pocket book. If you want quality you have to pay for it. And the way prices have jumper 30% across the board for everything we purchase... its just going to get worse. Unless this is how you make a living.... say good bye to hobbyist or the home DIY guy.
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Steve from Annapolis Maryland I support you there's another guy that's running his mouth about you saying that you're using the wrong oil and you don't know what you're doing so you need to speak up like you're doing I believe you're a genius engine builder you're very specific keep up the good work Steve from Annapolis Maryland and I don't care where you're from doing a good job and you make sense
Last yr I put together a ford 390 & I used a crower cam that I bought when I was 15 yrs old but never did use. I'm 46 now. That cam sat on my shelf for 30 yrs! But I needed lifters so I bought cheap summit lifters. Worried about a possible problem I bought 20 instead of 16. They were cheap. The break in seemed to go well & after fixing header leaks I still had a tick tick tick. I pulled the intake & checked all the bottoms & I had one I was suspect of but it didn't show any real reason to be ticking. It was pumped up & still had a crown on the bottom. I hold them to a straight edge & look at a light & I can see a crown. But it did have a strange circular pattern the others didn't show. So I replaced the one lifter. Got it going & it was smooth as silk. No tick. It's still running today. I have about 4000 miles on it now with no problems.
Same here buddy!! I used those cheap ass Summit branded lifters on my flat tappet 351w and a Sig Erson cam and it's still going strong with about 3,000 miles on it. I am very surprised by those cheap ass lifters!!
cant trust Melling lifters from Mexico! Summit uses them sometimes.
sounds like a quality control issue. Garbage in, garbage out. Comp Cams name keeps floating to the top.
I dont buy Comp, Lunati and Edebrock! They are all comp made. I buy Elgin Pro Stock they are fine.
Manufacture's of lifters outsourced their parts supplies from other countries and thru everything in a bin and distributed the parts to every cam and lifter sellers and now thru trying to save a buck are now destroying motors all over the country!
Bingo! A big bin of Chinese lifters built by 12 year olds on the third shift, with mis-machined lifter faces that are being loaded into different brand boxes and shipped globally. Once you see one that’s not right next to a good one, you can spot them by eye. Then rock the lifter on the table and you’ll see it has no crown. The faces are flat and they will not spin. And that’s how you get a 7 min. cam failure. They didn’t spin right.
Open a RUclips channel… in the Middle East…
See where your products are truly produced …..
Production……
HAS LEFT THIS COUNTRY..
Nobody wants the labor …
But be damned when it’s Just handed to ….
Dont buy anything from China, Mexico, Bolivia, Argentia or Brazil...cant trust their crap.
Cams need to be ground with a 1 to 2 degree back cut on the lobes, lifters need a crown on the bottom so they will spin . Hope this helps.
Most good lifters made in America are made by Johnson. In the late 60's I could get them for a small block Chevy for about $1.00 each at the machine shop I worked in. Bill got them by the gorss in a cardboard box. Johnson is still a major supplier but the seller has to tell you or it is a crap shoot. Crower and a couple others state Johnson lifters as one of their choices.
I have had nothing but great experiences using Crower cams.
@@RANDOMNATION907 Elgin is fine too
In the '60's and '70's we broke in flat tappet cams and lifters even those with high spring pressures using organic 30 weight and STP! Never a failure. I would recommend having today's stuff cryogenically treated to avoid failure. Personally have had good results.
and that stp and 30 wt oil applies today too!! adding lucus is like adding sand to the cam and lifters.
@@curtisalan4402 🤣🤣🤣
Interesting... great comment
I used the same method back in the day , never lost a cam , However isky , clay smith, Howard ect or any of the others we always avoided, if it wasn't a factory performance cam we only used Crane cams. because the heat treating issues were a problem back then as well. Fireballs never let us down.
Sometimes it's cheaper and easier to accept the loss and move on.
I had this problem 15 years ago with Ford flat tappet race engines. Stopped building engines until I had solution which some customers struggled to understand. Had tool steel lifters made by PPPC in North Carolina and have never had a problem since. The initial cost of the lifter was higher, however, the engines stay together so much longer as the lobe/lifter wear was the primary reason for tear down.
Perhaps we should all be using lifters from this company if they produce a higher quality product. 👍🏽👍🏽
300 Dollars per lifter?
Over 30 years I've not had a flat tappet cam failure, been using comp for 18 years,just done 3 engines about 3 weeks ago,2 of them was the xe274h cam and no problems whatsoever! I do use light valve springs for break in on all engines and Lucas sae30 break in oil.
Yes , exactly. If you know the tapers on the cam are proper and the lifters have a proper convex crown, uniform taper , than there should be NO problems . When you have 120# / 300# pressures than you HAVE to use a light spring . Same here. Looks like a dual spring setup from what it is, never install the inner springs for break-in . A lot of it is self inflicted.
Check out the videos from Powell Machine . Lots of information there .
I use old worn out big and small block springs and not be lazy about it .
Don't soak the lifters with a high spring pressure cam put lube on the outside and prime the lifters with the oil pump after putting the motor t0gether spin it with the spark plugs out until
its got full oil pressure and it'll be fine
We use to get white box cam and lifter .480 sbc for 57$ and never heard of lobe wipe out . but in the late 70s .
Yep, the first few I installed, back in the 80's, I didn't know what cam break-in was, and still never had a problem !
I'd just fire'em up, set it at a high idle (1000rpm), run the lash, (because I didn't know how to properly adjust a hydraulic lifter yet), set the idle, and called it good. And it was, each one was still running ten, hard years later.
It wasn't easy to wipe a cam back then, you almost had to be trying to wipe it !
@@glennjames7107 racing springs would beat the heck out of everything , push rods , rocker arms , cam and lifters , even pull the rocker studs ?
I agree with you everybody should start complaining to Sema everybody until they hear your complaints and fixing the issues
I was going to run a comp flat tappet in my engine im building for my truck. I been seeing all the horror stories with the cams and lifters. I sent it back to summit and just bit the bullet and bought a retrofit hydrolic roller cam and lifters. It did cost almost a $1000 but i figure its worth it considering the amount of money i spent on my forged scat roating assembly.
my camgrinder has always said that stock lifters dont have enough taper.He grinds new lifters with a bigger taper. never had any issue with his cams. was wade cams now clive cams melbourne australia.
*IF* anybody sends or tests the cams just make sure it's one of their OFF THE SHELF grinds. I'm pretty sure their custom grinds are the only one's the big companies are making a good strong effort to meet all the high quality standards. Make sure the cam taper is also checked. -
I do believe most people are discovering it's mainly a lifter quality problem.
it makes me wonder if these companies are simply trying to trick everyone into going the more expensive route, all rollers.
If I wreck a Comp cam & Comp flat tappet lifter, why would I replace them with Comp roller parts? Bad PR doesn't make people buy more expensive parts from you.
@@RyTrapp0 I hear that. but you know some people will go back.
Just went through the summer 68 Chevelle three camshafts later 10 minutes each got tired of that nonsense ended up dropping $1500 in custom roller. Cam works perfect now I can’t find good parts anymore. Doesn’t matter exactly what I’m working on whether it’s gas diesel, new old it’s getting really sickening. I’ll tell you what I mean who pays the bills does the shop pay the bills to the customers pay the bills and who’s fault is this? It’s been the point where I’m thinking about just telling people to find their own stuff and hope to God it works for them.
I whipped out a brand new comp cam last year within 20 minutes of breakin time. I'll not buy another comp cam until I know they are getting things right
Get Elgin they are fine!
Roller cams for me. Never had a Roller cam scrub a lobe. I’ve had fairly decent success with flat tappet cams. I’ve had failures with them too. Too many failures these days. All these failures I don’t believe are from improper procedures. It’s fairly common knowledge the process, pre lube, good break in oil, minimal cranking to fire engine. Specific rpm for a specific time. Rollers are expensive, but so is replacing a flat tappet 1,2,3 times.
There are not too many steel producers left in the US
And almost all of the companies moved offshore and or outsource some part of their supply chain or production.
Seems like Canada might be the answer.
Maybe start a performance parts company based in Canada that used high quality Canadian steel
And rigid QA process and provide proper break in oils and procedures
Show those big SEMA US based companies how it’s done.
In the early 2000's, Mack trucks had a problem with their EA7-470 engines, the cams were getting destroyed. It turned out to be the roller lifters that drove the high pressure,individual unit,fuel pumps were faulty. It was a particular batch, and some engines were affected, and some were not. The aviation industry had a problem in the past with counterfeit parts getting into supply chains........and its always about suppliers turning a blind eye to cheap items. Its also happened in the semi-conductor industry........cheap knock offs get into batches of the real thing and trouble ensues. But the OP has a good point.........there needs to be an actual investigation.
This problem is not a one off, I built my small block chevy 4 years ago same thing, other builders also. I don't want to replace a cam at this point at all.
I am finding the lifter face is not machined properly. I modified a K.O. Lee valve grinder to properly reface them. So far no issues.
Another thing you can look into is take a sample of your oil after the damage and send it out for testing to see what’s in it.just a thought
Here is the issue. I got this direct from a very smart person at Johnson lifters. All flat tappet lifters built today are cast off shore. The issue is with the cooling of the casting. There is a bit of an art to building lifters that has been lost. Lifters in the casting process must be cooled at a certain rate. This allows the proper silicon and carbon to migrate to the surface of the lifter face. All modern lifter companies are using off shoe lifters that are cooled too quickly thus resulting if a lifter that will never live.
As for oils, all the zinc etc oils do not matter. All that matters is proper break in oil. From there oil does not matter. His recommendation is to no longer use flat tappet cams. Wee must use roller cams. This is not what anyone want to hear but that is the fact wether we like it or not.
All flat tappet lifters are
Thanks David, this is my argument exactly! Metals chemistry and or metals processing...ie. heat treatment. What makes people think the "quality" is any better on the roller "wheels" and/or roller wheel "needle bearings" on a hydraulic roller lifter?
In a nutshell....it's corporate "theft and fraud" on a very large scale. Selling "garbage in a box" for dollars! Please don't tell me that the corps "management" is ignorant of this issue! I'm NOT part of that crowd!
So you don't build any dirt track engines huh ? Around here B-Mods are required to run a flat tappet cam
Well just to let you know its not only in auto parts, I bought a new lever gun that would not camber a new round it would game every time, and before that I had bought a new bolt action and the screws that hold the stock on I had to re tap and finish the inside of the stock so yes I know what you are saying .
I’ve seen a few rants by performance parts suppliers and engine builders on Utube.I have noticed that it is just not automotive parts,but nearly everything we grab off the shelves of merchandisers.We are flooded with foreign junk that must be prematurely replaced with more foreign junk,and vendors are getting rich off it.There were many attempts to stop this slide in the 60’s and 70’s,but the quest for profits by our industries and their Government influence prevailed.We will have quality no better than third world countries can supply until these industries return and are held subject to our higher standards.
All you said is True......and finding N.O.S. Hyd. lifters is Gold nowandays!
Ebay is full of them
What I do with all my flat tappet builds is do exactly what GM did with its last flat tappet engines. I grind a flat down the side of the lifter, to bleed oil on the cam. I NEVER have cam problems by doing this. I also use break-in rockers.
I totally agree with you. I have been building engines since the late 70s and haven’t had no real problem till just lately with that same subject. I recently put a cop cam kit in a small block Chevy engine, wiped it out during break in put another one exact same grind. No difference from comp done. The same thing are used to be a big fan of comp cams, but I’ve had several problems including them lately, I’ve checked all the specs as you did. I do not believe it’s an oil problem I believe it a quality problem. When I don’t understand one thing is you know the camshaft companies such as comp know about the problems that’s going on look like they would take it upon themselves for their own good name and rectify it but I love your video and it’s dead spot on
You should know better. Comp is mass production made with a factor in failure rate.
You should know better. Comp is mass production made with a factor in failure rate.
On all Chevy's you should have learned to also use a cam button.
I recently put a new melling cam and lifters in my vortec 454 now every time I fire it up after sitting over night they rattle for about 5 seconds before it builds up oil pressure. Can you explain that?? Junk lifters bleeding down by themselves or something. I’m getting fed up with junk aftermarket crap, it’s so hard to get a quality part these days
Nothing with Melling name on it is a melling from 20 yrs ago they are all out of China I mean everything Melling today is Chiniseaum
Increase the number of turns past zero lash until tolerable!
@@garybulwinkle82 I’ve got it at 3/4 turn past zero now not sure how far I can go
454's have always done that , thats why GM put piss holes in the front oil galley plugs
Take the motor apart bet you lifter are toast
And to this very day Comp Cams is still blaming the oil. Freaking CLOWNS.
You cant fool all people 4 ever...
Reports from all over of bad lifters. It seems that all that is available is junk, so junk is what they send you whoever they are,. I've got a work truck build planned and I wanted to add a towing cam but now I'm not sure what I'll do. Ain't worth going to rollers, don't want the hassle of solids, but damn sure don't want to be pulling the cam once I've got it in.
used to solid lifter cams on a BBC and SBC Both completely failed on break in. One melted every lifter, one the case hardening crumbled off. both comp. will never buy any of their cams/ lifters again.
Comp does not care about flat tappet cams because it's such a small percentage of their business, what a shame even their hydraulic rollers suck!
Comp now is preparing EV conversions for classic cars
Make sure your lifters are spinning freely in the bores. They’ll usually only wear thru if they’re not spinning.
I have a crane in a small Chevy from 1979,I think it’s called a fireball and it still looks great.
No taper on the lobs and no crown on the lifters is a on going problem.
Obviously when comp crane lunati edelbrock was purchased by the same company there product went to shit . Buyer beware
Correct.......and the word to describe that is called a...... "MONOPOLY"......this is what happens when the "majority" of citizens become "whores" to their investment portfolios and are ONLY concerned with "profits" and the "predatory mindsets" leading the charge are "praised, emulated and admired"........ regardless of the damage it does to a society.......there is another term to describe where we are at as a "western" culture......"Circling the drain".
After several comments I have been doing some research, some camshaft companies have their flat tappet cam lobes as "flat". The cam lobes must have a slight taper on the cam lobes at .003 to .004 taper per cam lobe. This makes the cam lobes spin as the flat tappets are not flat, but have a slight radius at normally 80 inch radius, some as high as 60 inch radius on the "flat" tappets. If the cam lobes are actually flat or the "flat" tappets actually flat, they will fail no matter what. Just a thought.
Thanks for the info 🧐 like everyone else is saying never a problem in the past !
This is crazy, I have not wiped a cam either. Always do my same process and have had excellent luck. I use the Lucas 30wt break in oil on the last 3 ft-cams and no issues.
Sealed power lifters, Elgin lifters, comp lifters. Comp cam, lunati cam and summit cam.
Im hoping I never have these issues but it’s always on my mind.
I also had a comp cam fail during break in. Lifters had the same results as yours holes in them. I have a video posted about it. 5 lifters and 2 totally wiped lobes.
Sorry to say this but the windage tray may be part of the problem. A Flat tappet cam needs a lot of lubrication on the lobes and unless modified most of the lube comes from oil shed at the crank journals that gets "splashed" on the cam from below. The small amount of lube that runs down past the lifter bores is probably not adequate for flat tappet cams.
My friend makes big power with flat tappet cams, but he bought his own lifter facing machine and thats his secret, he finds himself redoing the lifters of many of the top leading brand cam grinders. Thats just the way it is today..
Such a machine costs 500000 Dollars
I put a magnet in my oil pan. Then I can look at it through a side hole in the pan with my camera. Inspection when I change oil. I have a truck pan on my 440/ 505 stroker
Windage trays play a part in wiping out cams. It keeps the crank from throwing oil on the cam
also the use of non stock cion rods without those original oil splasher paddles
Great info. I don't build motors but I feel your pain on other products. Thx
Have you tried Howard's cams yet? I used to get almost all my parts back in the 90's from P.A.W., and never had an issue with any of their parts. Among the people I knew that built engines, they would give me a blank stare if I mentioned P.A.W. It seems around the last 5-7 years there's been consistent failures with parts. I remember Proform was having problems with aluminum rocker failures. And now even name-brands are having problems with their parts. I'd guess they're cheaping-out on their parts, put it in their name-brand box, send it out. If there's no failires, huge profits. If there's failures here and there, give free replacement parts....they're still making big profits. It can damage their name, but maybe they don't care. They've already "banked".
lunati & howards now make the best flat tappet cams.Also have your can nitrite hardened,about a hundred bucks.Get tool steel lifters,Howards has them of which I am getting ready to use a set on my nitrite hardened lunati cam.Do not expect to have any problems,it is just a shame to have to spend all that xtra money,those lifters are not cheap.About 500 bucks for the solids I am going to run.
You would have to have the tool steel cam to run the tool steel. You can't run a tool steel lifter on a gray iron camshaft
Lunati is comp owned....
Elgin and Erson are fine too
How about mushroom lifters?
Set up a dial gauge for the in-block lifter rotation test?
I run that same kit in my 400 Pontiac. Set it all up correctly and broke it in correctly using VR1 20w-50. Worked great. Ran it in good. First time I wound it to 6,000 rpm the lifters pumped up and blew 9 of the staple like keepers through the motor. I left them in the pan installed Rhoads fast bleed oil groove lifters never looked back. That was my first and last experience with Comp lifters. Will be making a video of the removal of Comp’s keepers from my oil pan in the next week or two. But! I do like that cam. It’s nasty!
Landrover after market lifters won't last 20 thousand km and they keep selling them them
Great video. I'd like to know if any new builds using all vintage NOS cam & lifters have experienced failures. If so, that might support the "bad modern oil" theory. If not, likely a manufacturing issue. I just rebuilt my '67 Corvair engine. Your video and others like it convinced me to reuse my low-mileage cam & lifters from ~1990, only ~10K miles. She fired right up, so far so good. Rollers are not an option for that motor.
Thank you for a clear picture
I believe they did change the hardening process as soon as they took the zinc out of oil.. So you probably do have 2 different hardness of parts.. Chevy.. VW..Audi ..All had to make quick updates and changes to replacements on even modern cars.. I remember cam problems left and right because of the zinc removal.. Companies had to adapt quick
You actually want two different hardnesses other wise you will have wear.....used to build dies and we always made the slides harder then the pocket it was sliding in...if you didn't you would have gauling
I was wondering if you checked the hardness of the cam shaft and lifters?
Just so you know I had to go roller with my 460ci big block. After a generic cam and lifter set.
Break the engine in with a set of stock springs, then replace the break in springs with the manufacture recommended springs or an equivalent set of springs with recommended loads & rates.
sounds like a class action lawsuit
I just got melling lifters and almost all of them have pitting where the lifter contacts the cam lobe brand new out of the box im guessing these lifters will fail in a short period
Made in Mexico or China crap
Great vid(s) sir.
Here's my hypothesis on this after watching several dozen vids and discussions with other people.
It's the lifters. There are several machines the lifters are produced from for each brand,I would have to assume. So if you buy a set of 16 it's doubtful that set all came from the same machine/operator and the QC/ tolerances is now the variant. This is why some are failing in a set and not all.
The camshaft is one piece that all the lobes are ground in one machine,so having a few lifters bad is highly unlikely a camshafts fault.
I had an Edelbrock RPM cam go flat on at start up, only ran for about 10 minutes. was about 300/ 318 duration with .488/.510 lift. was about 8 years ago.
Edelbrock is owned by comp
Seems like a corporate way of pushing us to buy the more expensive roller cams
By not paying attention to quality control of there flat tappet products
The lower left of the mission statement front page "ADOPTED NOVEMBER 1992" perhaps that is win the name change occurred. I agree some thing needs to be done and hold some one accountable.
Moto Guzzi motor cycles had a flat tappet fiasco on a engine series.The "fix" was a roller tappet kit from the factory..... plenty of hearts broken amongst the bike owners dealing with the factory when trying on a warranty claim though
A lot of people are getting compromised cams and lifters. I bought a 509/292 hydraulic flat tappet cam shaft back in the late 90s purple shaft and lifters. Has never been broken in but is installed in my 440.
did you do a hardness test? Crower and Isky and others like Engle carry the better mfg lifters, you can Id by looking at the retainer then get those lifters, have you tried with the hole in the lifter face? you can reface those lifters to better than oem lot's of good ideas thanks beware of lifters with big chamfers on the edges they will edge ride on big cams
Get a Hugh's cam and call it a day. For the record not that it means anything but Comp Cams are overrated used one once many many years back when they came on the scene. Now I have been using Ultradyne at least for Mopar's or Hugh's non roller cams last one I built was about six months ago SBM stroker. It was for a friend of mine used a REAL Crower Cam he bought years ago and never used was still in the box. It is a hyd lifter cam around .500 lift I think it came with the lifters he has been running it non stop going to work etc.. no problems so far. In a 4 speed duster runs 12.10 in the quarter no real tuning done it's a 408 ci stroked 360 the older stuff NOS cam and lifters if you can find them are the way to go.
I've not built too many engines but used to do the Rhodes Lifters with the Iskenderian Camshaft combo. Then would use racing oil with STP added in. Didn't have any issues but that was a LONG time ago. I should mention that none of these engines were anywhere near "race" engines.
Isk is owned by Comp. Same cam.
Lunati too
Wonder if CEO Coleman at comp cams has any idea of the bad cam epidemic?
He is chinese owned I think
Have you mic'd the lifters & the lifter bores of the block? Never heard of that type of problem with Mopar engines but I have with GM.
Back in the day there was an article on a Mopar magazine which I don't remember but the vehicle was called the green brick which they run a roller cam with a regular lifters they put a special coating on them
they did not do a breaking they would check the cam after every race with no sign of wear
I remember the coating look orange if I remember correctly
Hopefully someone knows about it so we could start using it !!🤷♂️
Can you clarify what "Regular Lifters" are ....Regular Roller lifters or regular Flat Tappet lifters ?? ......You can't use Flat tappets on a Roller Cam & Don't need to Break-in a Roller Cam & lifter set......
@@tomstrum6259 regular flat Tappet on a roller cam !!!
If I remember correctly!!
But they had that coating I would assume that got rid of the tapered contact 🤷♂️
My 545 BBF uses a "Howards cam" .800 Lift "Roller" So awesome.
Ive seen others test hardness of cams and lifters but never a failed can you send those failed lifters and have them tested?
Well, this is just great. Just sent a 427 out the door with a Comp Cams hydraulic flat tappet cam and lifters for a guys 1968 corvette. Now, I wait. Ugh
Dont buy comp get Elgin
As long as people continue to buy from the big companies like Comp nothing will change. My solution is to buy from smaller companies that still put a emphasis on quality and stand behind their work and products. Yes, you will pay a little more but, wouldn't it be worth the added cost?
With the cam fitted, how centered are the lobes in comparison to the lifter bores?
My brother races with a big cube Windsor and flat tappet camshaft . He has never had a problem in 40 years and been using Brad Penn oil for years now . IDK why it works for him but it does . Could ND oil be another direction to try for break in oil ? I see Brad Penn works for him .
Someone needs to do an experiment; new cam, lifters installed, but use lighter valve springs than what's called for. If there's still failures, that'll indicate something. The engine doesn't need the heavy springs just for break-in and light running.
Try Schneider racing cams. They are made in America
Elgin too
Yup the stories are being true to quality cam and lifters.
There are no new flat tappets being manufactured anywhere, as all flat tappet lifters have been remanufactured with the bore being honed, and the face, or heal being reground.
When metal is dissolved in acid quality of the metal composition is determined. No other method is truly accurate.
Considering the lifters/camshaft is slightly magnetic---metallic dust/particulate matter when mixed with oil becomes grinding compound. GIVE THIS SOME THOUGHT.
comp starting going down hill when edelbrock took them over. I used to deal with chris p at comp, he is now at bullet
No, comp took over Edelcrap and Lunatics
Things to check
Lobe widths
Lobe taper
Lobe placement on core relative to lifter bore c/L- lifter should contact in front of lobe c/L
Lifter to lobe overhang
Lifter fit to lifter bore
Lifter rotation CCW
Lifter crown
Camshaft retention
Cam sprocket fit
Cam bearing fit
Approximately. 300" wide tappet path across lobe- no edge riding.
Oil - synthetic
Metallurgy- over 50 on C is good
Simple
Sorry this took so long, but here are my replies to your comment Arthur with all due respect:
Lobe widths:
-What are the specs for lobe widths? There are NO spec listings in any Chrysler Service Manuals/the (Early) Direct Connection or the (Later) Mopar Performance Engine building manuals. {I have them all since 1976} as the lobe tapper "ratio" (from edge to edge) would change over a given distance. Right? Chrysler used a 0.904" diameter lifter.
Lobe taper:
-0.001" to 0.003" {Always Checked in 4 positions per each lobe as it is actually only 1/2 the total "measured" result. {The base circle of the lobe is not ground "flat". It's also ground with a "tapper". Right? }
Lobe placement on core relative to lifter bore c/L- lifter should contact in front of lobe c/L:
-That's a "visual" determination/reference as again, there are NO numerical Specifications from Chrysler Corp. / Cam manufacturers in relation to the lobe C/L vs the lifter bore C/L. How much distance is enough or to little?
Lifter to lobe overhang:
? -Too much of the lifter diameter over the lobe edge?
Lifter fit to lifter bore:
- Block lifter bore diameter is always checked with a Mitsutoyo [0.0001"] dial bore gauge. There is a factory specification for this dimension.
Lifter rotation CCW:
- You are obviously a CHEVY builder and know very little about Chrysler's. Thrust plate camshaft engines [some Fords] & all "LA" small block Mopar's [273/318/340/360's] use factory camshafts with 2 pairs of cam lobes angle ground rearward and 2 pairs of cam lobes angle ground forward between each of the 5 camshaft bearings. This stabilizes and cancels out/equalizes the "fore and aft" movement of the cam upon engine RPM acceleration and RPM deceleration (via the helicut gear intermediate oil pump shaft). The result is LESS camshaft movement, therefore less lobe/lifter and camshaft bearing wear.
One of the few videos from "Uncle Tony's Garage" explaining/dealing with Flat tappet camshafts & lobe grind angles that is worth while watching:
ruclips.net/video/7M-yopGZO94/видео.html
Lifter crown:
- Physically measured with a flat ground plate/surface and a dial indicator [0.0015" - 0.0025"]
Camshaft retention:
-The LA "Thrust" plate is NON adjustable, "B & RB" don't require this as a Flat Tappet cam lobe grind angle pushes the camshaft "rearward" into the block against a machined protrusion. The "B & RB" engines with a Roller Cam requires a cam "Button" to "Timing cover" install to limit cam "walk". Just like the BB Chevy. Clearance on a BB Mopar = [0.003"- 0.010"].
Cam sprocket fit:
-Full sprocket seating on the cam snout with the LA "thrust plate" & on the ["B & RB" engines] with and without a/the Torrington trust bearing.
Cam bearing fit:
-Measure and follow the Chrysler/Manufacturers specs! If the cam bearings are out of tolerance or damaged, replace them! Check them for concentricity/alignment with the camshaft you are going to use in THAT particular engine. Especially on the "B & RB" engines! These big blocks are notorious for cam bearing bore shifting as the blocks naturally "stress relieve" themselves from months of thermal cycling.
Approximately. 300" wide tappet path across lobe- no edge riding:
- Again these are arbitrary "Chevy" specs. The Chrysler lifter is 0.904" in diameter. "Edge to edge" across the lobe "nose" can be common with the .904" diameter Chrysler lifter. This does NOT indicate a faulty "Lobe" wear pattern nor a "bad" lifter. I have put some of these "edge to edge" wear cams on the "Cam Doctor" and measured less than 2% lobe wear after 50,000 + miles!
Oil - synthetic:
-Agreed
Metallurgy- over 50 on C is good:
-Agreed
Simple:
DISAGREE......NOT SO SIMPLE IS IT!!....AND HOW MUCH MORE PER HOUR DO YOU CHARGE YOUR CUSTOMER(S) TO DO ALL THIS EXTRA MEASURING/LABOR WORK FOR A REBUILD?
-ALL THIS WORK TO INSTALL A POORLY MADE FLAT TAPPET CAM AND LIFTER SET THAT A FEW YEARS AGO COULD BE INSTALLED "WORRY FREE" AND LIVE FOR 200,000 + MILES WITH THE PROPERLY SCHEDULED OIL CHANGES?
This is what contaminated "Electric Arc Furnace" foreign made steels using SCRAP metals as a source gets you instead of using "new/virgin" contamination free "Basic Oxygen Furnace" [BOF] steels when it was produced in North America. Throw in NO Quality Control, questionable heat treatment processes and shit CNC machining operators (10 year old girls from India or poor Mexicans earning $3.00/hour?) and we get what we have now......GARBAGE in a BOX and still sold at a PREMIUM PRICE to the end USA/CANADIAN consumer.
Corp just warranties "their" parts, not your "labor" nor the other damaged parts, nor the gasket sets for the repairs. Nor do they hear irate customers venting their frustrations on "you" instead of the real culprit!
HEY MR. ENGINE BUILDER, JUST GO TO A ROLLER CAMSHAFT!!!
-ROLLER CAMS= [STIFFER VALVE SPRINGS/CUSTOM LENGTH PUSH RODS/ 3 BOLT TIMING CHAIN SETS/ CAM BUTTON/BLOCK or EDDY aluminum head push rod CLEARANCE GRINDING, ETC, ETC..] FOR ANY CHRYSLER THIS ADDS AT A MINIMUM $2500.00 MORE TO AN ENGINE BUILD.
Hows that "STOCK" 383 Wedge engine restoration for a 1969 PLYMOUTH ROAD RUNNER SOUND NOW? A 340 in a '73 Duster?
-Or a 400/455 Buick Skylark, GS, or Wildcat, a Pontiac Firebird or a Grand Prix or Oldsmobile Cutlass, W30/W31 restoration sound with a 350 Chevy or an LS as a power plant under the hood? There is bugger all choices for roller cams for those "OTHER" GM's.
SIMPLE?.....WE are "SIMPLY" witnessing the DELIBERATE "slow motion" destruction of western culture!
today I would just buy a used one (camshaft and lifter) which is in good condition. if I got a problem with a brand. I won't buy them again.if everyone did that. then bad brands would disappear. personally no comp,isky, crower,herbet. I lost 2 camshafts in an engine 3rd survived which I driven for about 10 years. I don't think that the block self healed and that the oil manufacturer changed the oil for the 3rd attempt.
Elgin and Melling cams work as well as their lifters
Now that most production engines are running rollers, I’d guess this is going to be a problem. Though you can run an aftermarket roller on a SBC or other common engines - or even any engine with a common lifter bore, what the heck do you do with a Chev 235 “Blue Flame” that has a weird lifter bore, just under an inch? I guess you can sleeve the bore or something and get a custom roller cam made, but this is getting ridiculous. As another interesting point, the company I work for makes fuel injectors and we had heat treating problems back in 2005 or 2006, it was a batch of magnetic pole pieces and the parts were not treated right. Fortunately it affected the magnetic properties enough that they wouldn’t calibrate properly so we could reject the whole batch and didn’t have to wait for the warranty claims on a few thousand injectors.
What condition were the lifter bores in? How did the lifters feel going in?
I am in absolute agreement with you
Between my Comp cam and my Schnider cam, my lifter/lobe failures were on different lobes as well.
Powell Machine Inc has a video on hardness testing with cams and lifters. Here's the link to it:
ruclips.net/video/DMFikj-TAqo/видео.html
You are absolutely correct.
We need to form a group and get organized.
And boycott these companies and for the truth to come out.
Maybe even start a new company that does things the right way.
The old tried and provin way.
I have had some of my own ideas.
The analysis needs to be done by someone unbiased and not connected to the Automotive industry.
Thank you.
Have a good evening.
Close our wallets!
They are right, if you buy their stuff you have to use their stuff and let them warranty it.
You want some advice. You need to use Lubriplate Gear Shield for a assembly lube,
Compcams has out now dlc coated on the face of chevy lifters ,don't know if they gotem for mopars.give them a call
I drive a 99 Mercedes and an 03 BMW because American cars are total junk.
I am now in the process of building a 23 t bucket roadster and have 2. new cams and lifters for my build. Now I have to spend more money for a retro fit roller cam kit so I can sleep at night.
Lmao. As a mechanic I can tell you those are two of the worst built cars in the industry. They won’t last over 150,000 with some type of major failure. Have 3 BMW’s on my lot with just over 100,000 that have shot engines.
German cars are not what they used to be either. Junk is more like it.
@@cygnus1965 Especially when rod and main bearing replacement, is considered normal maintenance.
Old Packards are pretty fine!
They were super high quality
The little guy(s) up against the corporations is an uphill battle.
I use the Lucus additive also, but I am told that the detergent in today's oils offsets the additive and makes it no good. So now what?
Break in oil Lucas .
Do the blanks all come from one manufacturer and then get sent to these other companies for a grind???
It all boils down to "Somewhere, Somebody fucked up"...
I would be more worried about the machining of the parts. 40 yrs ago there werent that many upgraded modernized parts manufacturing facilities. Quantity over quality by automated facilities. One wrong number inputed to a CNC machine and you have tons of bad parts. Forging of the steel comes out in large batches and is temper tested because they dont know what the steel is being used for, so there is a standard across the board and they test the steel after it is milled. I would look into the process at the manufacturer more then the mills. Either they knowingly purchased substandard material, or it is the machining of the steel itself , either way its on the manufacture. There is no quality, people want fast and cheap to buy more for the dollar and they want it "now" and not wait.... this is the era we live in. Disposable pocket book. If you want quality you have to pay for it. And the way prices have jumper 30% across the board for everything we purchase... its just going to get worse. Unless this is how you make a living.... say good bye to hobbyist or the home DIY guy.
Yep, I agree!! SEMA, here we come!!