4WD dual-cab utes and the 'bent chassis' problem: THE TRUTH | Auto Expert John Cadogan
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
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This video is an answer to the following viewer question:
"Been looking at your reports and you are very keen on Triton utes, especially the reliability, warranty and price. However, there is a common view in the 4WD community that Tritons suffer a lot more from bent chassis than other brands. Lots of photos of Triton in a U shape. What is you view on this problem in Tritons compared to other brands?" - Geoff Saul
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Good work John. This is why I extended the chassis on my LC. The camper was not overly heavy for the standard ute, but where it was pressing wasn't going to survive in the long run. BTW. I do like that spanner. Same vintage as my Range Rover.
That spanner being the only reliable thing Leyland ever produced...pun intended😀👋👍
O I see, you extended the chassis of your Dream Tourer, in order to move the rear wheels backwards, so that the "hinge" effect can be largely eliminated.
Smart move Andrew😎👍👍
@@Bubbles12345-cat Not eliminated, but moved forward, and Multidrive Technology beefs up that part of the chassis with a large and long steel beam.
@@4xoverland That's a very good idea to reinforce the chassis there, plus you're smart enough to not tow caravans and other shit-wa's along with you on your expeditions.
Of course with the Troopy, there's no such thing.
That's why you're always going back to the Troopy's. They just make the most sense, and utilises space the most efficient way.
Can't wait for the next episode of the blue build😎👍
Whitworth belongs with the dinosaurs, oh, I see, it is.
Another excellent video John. Unfortunately in the 4wd subculture overloading your vehicle is the done thing. The cynical marketing of GVM “upgrades” so people can delude themselves that all is well doesn’t help. Apparently the concept of not taking more crap than Napoleon took to Moscow is an affront to everything that is good and decent in outer Butte Fuque.
The bean counters, done the numbers and call it user error.
I spent years and still do touring on a motorcycle. I leaned how to pack light, take the necessities and always allowing space for the Bundy bottle. So when I take the car on holidays or a weekend away, I seem to have enough space for a box of Bundy and then some. Perhaps the DPC club should ride motor bikes for 6 months so they learn how to leave half the crap at home and not overload the ute.
@@nevillegreg1 Totally agree with you. I have done a bit of dirt motorbike touring and you really appreciate not taking too much crap when riding through sand or really technical terrain. Like most road riders who switched to dirt, I discovered the KTM 950 Adventure I bought was a heavy sucker in hard going. I quickly replaced it with a DR650. You can be really comfortable with lightweight gear on a bike. What’s wrong with eating Stagg Chiili beans with two minute noodles for a fortnight?
@@nevillegreg1 Wait, they'll be overloading the motorcycle-towed trailers because.......you guessed it..........they're Dickhead Pros.
@@nevillegreg1 Indeed, you don't need to bring the kitchen sink.
Nailed it again John. I have owned a few different twin cab utes and they are a compromise at best. If I want one to tow a van or take a camper I will go to an Isuzu NPR, Mitsubishi Canter or Hino. There is not much difference in price,, rear dual wheels in the right place and truck drive train
Wise you are
Also with those cabovers, it can take beating better than those utes, since loads are centered.
Had a car in the early 80's tuned and moded to light rally spec. Told the insurance, they doubled the premium. Six weeks later I stopped at a red traffic light, a truck loaded with a highmac totaled it. The Ins. Co. looked very closely at it to find a way out, the car was as declared and they paid up. Not moded a car since, too much of a worry.
Common law states that even an illegal modification will not invalidate your insurance claim if that did not contribute to the accident. You can have an illegal engine in the car and they still have to pay if you get rear ended while standing at the lights.
@@sylviam6535 If only it was the case, but logic is far giving way to fine print in the legal side of business contracts.
If practical logic held then in a scenario where one gets into a not at fault accident while unregistered should be compensated.
However, I have many taking the scenario that regardless if the fault was not caused by the unregistered vehicle, the accident would not happen if they were not on the road.
That reasoning is likened to Saudi Arabia where all the Citizens are given more rights than non-citizens to the point that if a non-citizen is killed due to a reckless act of a citizen they would rule, the citizen is not at fault as the there would have been no deaths if the non-citizen was not there.
As a mechanic we have had the Insurance assessors come into the shop to look at the remains..often its a case of take some photos with a resigned look at destroyed shiny suspension that bears no similarity to what came out of the factory. Some are a struggle to climb up to , as for changing the wheel.....
Here is an interesting thaught ....... in the military pretty much all off road vehicles have two load ratings .... one that is similar to civilian load ratings for "on road use" and one considerably lower for "all terrain use".
A BIG thing that the majority fail to understand is that load ratings for civilian 4WDs are for "smooth improved surfaces" and not necessarily at full highway speeds.
Yes, Land Rovers have a 750kg off-road towing capacity printed in the owners manual.
I was waiting for the physics lesson on the multiplication of weight when you hit that washout, taking your 990kg and making it over 2000kg force on the Chasis
To imagine oneself in the position of the chassis, simply stand on the end of the bed - holding a slab of beer in front of you with arms oustretched - and just step off the end of the bed...
The drop-plus-sudden-stop is equivalent to the washout (or even a curb?) and the shock load is an appropriate stand-in for the sudden load applied at 40-80 kph.......
And your shoulder joints and muscles are in the place of the section of chassis rails 'twixt cab and bed. You're almost inevitably going to do yourself a mischief AND scatter the tinnies all over the road!! Quel desastre!!!
Very good analagy
That was incredible the amount of bent utes !
Didn't realise there were so many.
Thanks John 👍
Edit ... A lot of those bent utes had more overhang than legal.
Building truck bodies the rule was no more than 60% of the wheelbase in overhang .
Or 3.6m from centre of a dual drive axle truck.
Rule? Isn't it the law?
Hi John, I’m definitely no engineer but I can’t help thinking that if the rear axle was placed more towards the centre of the tray, this may help lessen the chances of bending the chassis when fully loaded. I understand extending the wheelbase like this would make the turning circle larger but can’t see many other drawbacks. Am I missing something here? American build utes seem place the rear axel closer to the centre of the tray. Why do mainstream manufacturers insist on this is where the rear axle needs to be? Perhaps offering longer wheelbases as an optional extra, if fully laden trips to “Dingo Piss CreeK” is your thing, would be doable. The ute could even potentially stay the same overall length. Just move the rear axle back 3 or 4 hundred millimetres. Maybe there is a market for this sort of alteration as an aftermarket service if it can be done and still keep the insurance lads happy.
Funny that you mentioned that "move the rear axle back 3 or 4 hundred mm rearwards" as I just off St Kilda Road, Melbourne the other week and I walked past a VW Amarok Dual Cab tray and it seemed to be stretched by exactly that much from the rear of the cabin to the start of the wheel arch. I actually stopped to have a second look in case my eyes were playing tricks. No tricks, this Amarok had been stretched very professionally and most people would never notice it had been. Unfortunately, I didn't take a photo and I haven't had the pleasure of seeing the same vehicle parked there since, but I know that it's out there!
JC, Duty of Disclosure here in Ostralia came about in 1984 and (updated progressively since) basically means that you must advise your insurer of anything that a reasonable person should be aware of increases the risk to the insurer over a standard vehicle. (assumptions is that most of your client base are reasonable people, considering the presenter of this channel assume this is a given?) An insurer bases their premium on a standard vehicle (ex factory - no after market modifications). Factory modifications will not generally breach a policy condition.
The real concern for the punters of your channel is that, One their section one cover (own damage) may be compromised or reduced to nil. This means that their band new, I dunno Banana bent Triton is not covered by the policy if it bends in an accident BUT
More importantly and Secondly, their section 2 cover, if their suddenly Banana Bent Triton losses control after leaving the bend at Piss Creek veers across the road into a B Double fuel tanker (HMV - Look up) and the whole thing explodes and causes an environmental disaster in Piss Creek then your punter may be without all third party cover if the cause of the loss, ie overloading the vehicle causing banana break is not covered by the policy. Tip "Third Party" costs can run into the millions, worst case.
Perhaps a Deep Dive with the Leyland Spanner into the world of Insurance Cover?
Bam
Well explained.....If you look at the original American dual cab utes/trucks, they had the rear axle at the very rear of the tray/bed which made them stronger handled better, and did not bend the chassis...........
There was a company in BrisVegas that used to add a third slave axle on to utes & 4WDs. Not sure if they're still alive. This probably wouldn't stop numpties from overloading but it may assist with the the towing down force stresses on the chassis and reduce the stress on the weakpoint removing/reducing the overhang stress.
Had it here in SA too, they did third axle conversions for Datsun 720 with camper .
Finally, someone on the Internet not staring out the window during science.
Thank you. The hinge point explanation makes perfect sense.
Full load is for on (a good) road! How hard is that to understand? 🤔 When I drive the work tipper with a full (3 tonne) load I always drive slowly on less than perfect surfaces i.e., leaving a quarry, leaving a worksite with a load of spoil and driving into a landfill site. Wheelbase is 2500mm, overall tray length is approximately 3150 and the rear overhang i.e., the horizontal distance from the centre of the rear axle to the back of the tailgate is about 800mm. Much lower risk factor than these pickups, even when I have to carry heavy materials with the tailgate latched open but I still play it carefully. I recently carried 40x25kg bags of 30mpa instant concrete on the back and ensured that at least half the mass was over the rear axle instead of behind it. A little more work at each end but no risk to the vehicle or other road users, given that the electronic rear axle traction control is glacially slow compared to a ‘slippery’ diff.
One problem with carmakers is that they do not imitate the makers of serious off-road vehicles for oilfield exploration, mining and military use; who tend to specify a maximum on-road payload and a maximum off-road payload, the latter payload tending to be half of the on-road payload.
Here in the UK, the Navara D40 had an endemic issue with corrosion in exactly the wrong place : where the bending moment is at its highest and where you have a stress concentration just near where the forward leaf spring mount is. Many of them snapped sparking a petition to recall the vehicles. Nissan offered everyone a chassis treatment to stop the rot. With limited effectiveness.
I speak as a former D40 owner whose chassis just wouldn't stop rusting. The UK environment is about as harsh as it gets for corrosion. Never more than 100 miles from the sea or ocean and 5 months a year where the roads are covered in salt etc...
Edit: now own a Hilux. No such issues.
New Tritons also run a Navara chassis,,,,,, its not just the salt stuffing the frame,,,,, the frames are low quality, so Tritons will bend the same as a Navara.
@@MrMoth0102 yeah, but that gap between the tray allows water down into the chassis rail to rot it away, the navaras that have bent, every single one I've seen, has been rotten. We deliver into a recycling centre in Preston Lancashire. They had about 40 navara all ready to be crushed. They were from main dealer in Preston. All rusted in that gap. The full body stops the rain, but also is a strong back for the chassis.
Because the D40 was so bad the NP300 is so good: Nissan welded a U at the weak point ( at least in Asia , not sure if the ones from Barcelona do )
When I was a trucker in the military all the trucks we used for cross country were rated at half of their real rating for a safety factor, so our 5 ton was actually a 10 ton on highway. That way we were sure to never get it anywhere near its limits when we were off-roading.
I have only just started watching John and must say he is one very smart man. His advice on all I have watched so far, is 100% spot on. He deals with things in a very honest and solid headspace. Pity some people are blinded by a so called loyalty to a brand. The vehicle needs to be fit for purchase and also fit the person who is making that purchase. The idea that a Triton is inferior compared to a Hilux, is a stupid argument.
Best way to reduce your payload is to leave the passenger side airbag at home.
An pick-up engineer in the US would look at the Triton side on, and say, mate, what's up with the rear axle not being under the load bed? What are you thinking? Comprimising load carrying ability just to ensure you can reverse it into a car park space...
I also think that the Tritons are over represented in that rental camper space because they’re cheaper and reliable which is why there are so many photos on the net. You don’t see any Rangers or Hilux in the rental market.
One of our local camper rentals does merc X250ds 🤣🤣
I have photos of bent Tritons that do not have camper fitted. There was one in a work shop in Carnarvon WA a few weeks ago, being welded up. They seems to be more bent Tritons than other makes. Other one is Land Rovers on the back or recovery trucks.
@@patrickmaher4909 Tritons have been on a Navara chassis for about 4 years now. Remember Nissan own 34% of Mitzi now. They haven't used the mighty L200 chassis for years and l don't think they bent.
@@MrMoth0102 no...
@@MrMoth0102 It isnt a navara chassis. The current one has the same chassis as the previous generation (the ones that bend) but strengthened.
That was informative John, especially the part about insurance. For most of us, being covered for risk is pretty important. Not sure if you can or would be interested in putting together a video on vehicle insurance - its a long way from engineering!
Except for the fact that the bit where Stu's eye's conveniently glazed over is the bit about ADRs. You know, just the most important bit. Whereby in most states there are legal limits you can lift you 4wd without breaking the rules, and you would therefore also imagine without risking your insurance. I have personally had a lifted, fully legal and heavily modified 4wd written off and received a complete payout from one of the usual big insurance companies (not a specialist). Additionally, if you have gone through the process of having your car engineered for a bigger lift and or GVM upgrade (often done at the same time) and let your insurance company know about this, then insurance company dependent, you could very well have that insured too. The issue is a sound one to bring up, but the narrative that was used seemed to be that all lifts will invalidate insurance, which is nonsense.
It's an extremely serious offence to use a car on UK roads without insurance cover. In NZ one can go out and buy a car and drive on the roads without any insurance! Is it the same in Oz for Stralians? I think an article on insurance would be great. Again in the UK each car is grouped into an Insurance Group Category and premiums are based on these group numbers. This is why in the UK all under twenty-fives drive typically one litre cars, because the premiums are extremely high for them on more powerful cars. In NZ I don't think they have any insurance grouping systems which means you have kids driving round in big powerful cars and are generally a menace on the roads. So yes, an article on motor insurance and these various systems would be a great eye-opener.
@@BD-bditw Australian's pay a compulsory third-party insurance as part of their registration fees collected by state governments. That is my experience here in Victoria.
@@attilajuhasz2526 that third party insurance is only for injury to others, It doesnt cover you for damage to other cars, houses etc. You can take out a third property damge insurance to cover yo against the damage done to others property, but it wont cover damage to your own car. Comprehensive is the way to go if you can afford it
@@snells-window thanks, mate. You're correct. I was trying to keep my comment brief for the sake of our over-seas friends.
Spot on advice about insurance. I know several people who have lost out when claiming, due to not informing their insurance company of something. They will try to get out of paying, every way possible, so don't give them one!
In the United States, land of the pickup truck, we don't bend too many frames. Of course we have adult size trucks here… We prefer to crash them. Or maybe roll them over once in a while.
They are small trucks... not a Ute.
@@wobblysauce The word you use is an Australian only term. They are both pickup trucks. Just different sizes of pickup trucks. And, the heavy duty variety are difficult to describe as small anything
Or drown them at your local boat ramp bahahahaha
@@chrismatulka4042 always amusing
@@kevinbarry71 always
Your fizix is spot on. Victims of bent chassis won't admit to the circumstances that caused but the media outlets go crazy about the vehicle.
Thanks John. I see so many 4x4s on the road that would be rego illegal. My mechanic would tell you that the boys take all the illegal gear off, get a rego pass and then go and put it all back on. Been in the off road industry for 30yrs and seen it all. Great report.
Thanks Rob - I'm sure that happens a lot mate. Also if they get defected.
Great video John! I'd love to see you do one dedicated to Mechanical Sympathy. I feel that concept is lost to at least Two generations.
I think it(mechanical sympathy) is like common sense these days - Not that common anymore
When you had to demonstrate your knowledge of mechanical sympathy before you were aloud to touch your dad's wind up watch, or to know not to slam a car door.
That may be true but we also no longer drive Austin A40’s that need the piston rings replaced every 30k miles.
@@youreaknob Thank god! 😂
@@sjion But you are SUPPOSED to slam the doors of w123 Mercedes cars!
John - I am surprised you did not factor in the aerodynamic load generated by any rear structure that extends up above the cabin roof. If I have a camper on my Ute, that extends up above the roofline by 1/2 meter, driving at 60 mph not puts a fairly substantial load on the front of that camper, that then acts as a level pushing back on the rear of the frame. This is an additional bending load/moment that also needs to be thought about.
Here in north American, it is common to see old slide in campers that have a sleeping area that is easily 24 inches in height over the top of the passenger roof. That camper also extends rearward over the rear bumper in most cases. This is quite a load that is not included in the total GVR.
Perfect analogy mate.
You could gift that video to the RTA for their driving license test.
I’m not kidding.
I reckon even accountants would get that😎
The young fellas and Sheila’s won’t get it otherwise,
They’ll be hearing all the old stories from dad and the uncles about the good old days.
She’ll be right son, me and uncle Barry drove eleventy one hundred Kees once .
We were coming home from the Bindoon rock festival.
Ran out of fuel but got home by pissing in the fuel tank, jeeze we drank some rum that weekend😎
Great explanation John. I own a MQ Triton and did research this issue before buying it. No, I’m well aware of how it happens & don’t intend overloading or fitting extra stuff. But, “bent chassis problem” can also be exaggerated by fitting airbags in the rear of a dual cab. These of course can load the chassis in the unsupported areas, much like a bow & arrow. So why did I fit airbags? Ride comfort is an issue for me so I’ve had the rear leaf springs derated to be soft ride then add a small amount of air if I carry any load. But this then leaves me on my own with insurance if I have a problem as it would be impossible to prove I didn’t overload. My answer is the Superior Eng. chassis reinforcement that must be completed by a competent person then signed off by a Qld Transport approved Engineer & subsequently mod plated.
and yet to this day Triton owners still put overhanging canopies/boxes with four jerry cans and two large spare wheels on the back, with the compulsory wank factor Rhino 4X4 roof rack, with a 2k kg camper trailer behind it, I see it every day!
The old utes of pre double cab era had their wheels roughly where they were supposed to be. After the double cab got slapped on, it didn't occur to the manufacturers to increase the wheelbase. A bit of an oversight there methinks. There are some shops that do wheelbase extensions. I have seen it done to a 70 Series Land Cruiser double cab with good results
At risk of ruining our trip before it’s begun, I argue my way to under loading.
When things have calmed down a few hours into the trip, sans the unneeded “things” the second part of my cunning plan comes in. I ask her to drive on the rough stuff, because she is a more careful driver than me, including better vision .
The results are, we arive in one piece and I have had a good sleep.
Ps. We regularly do 11 hour trips of which the last 280ks is narrow station roads and tracks.
Well covered John!
I've had this exact conversation with countless knobheads on various 4x4 FBook pages.
All of them to a Tee blame the car, never the camper box eleventy-nine spare wheels and the long drawbar camper trailer being towed....
Clowns the lot of them.
I blame coil springs and improved comfort levels.
When you felt every bump and rattle, it reminded you to not go too fast on dirt roads.
How many utes have coil springs?
@@craigdavid6668 I can think of 2 --- Nissan Navarra & Ford Ranger Raptor.
You do know that coils deliver a direct single point load to the chassis? And the bump and rattle you feel from going too fast on dirt roads, (from the leaf spring suspension as portrayed in this video) that might encourage you to slow down is the reason that these utes are "bananaramaring"
@@yengsabio5315 So about 5% of the market, one of which that can’t carry or tow anything significant/useful.
Defenders had them from 1983 to 2016
Like this explanation, as an engineer it's easy to see, too much overhang, something's got to break,
"You gotta decide where you're gonna save some of that weight.", the answer is obvious, Tiffany gets punted!. :-)
Get her and the brood (if she is a bree$er) a Pajero - keep the Triton for you, the dogs and the tinny. (jk) - oh and the Fridge(s)
Nice shirt sir 👌
With the insurance side you spoke at the end, I agree mostly. I have a early 90s Ford 4x4 and asked Shannon's about mods, they didn't care if I installed a supercharged V8 in the thing and lifted it 10in with 38in tred, as long as they know what's been done they will insure it... However if I go doing skids and wipe out a Lambo they won't be interested but if the prang was someone else's doing I'll be covered.
"However if I go doing skids and wipe out a Lambo they won't be interested...." That sounds like an interesting Policy - I am ass-uming the Lambo was offroad?? haha.. Just commenting for a friend.
@@kadmow yeah it's one of those all wheel drive ones 🤣
Is it any wonder we are seeing more and more GM/RAM/FORD 2500/3500 HD trucks. Tow a 2500kg van with a Hilux, Triton, ranger etal is a white knuckle experiance. Move to a 2500 series truck or even better a 3500 GMC HD truck, in extended bed guise with its massive wheel base, I guarantee you will never go back to a toy 4x4. It's the weight and wheelbase of the truck that makes all the difference. A days towing will see you arrive significantly fresher than a smaller ite will. Pro-tip. In the HD trucks, only the Silverado/GMC twins (2500/3500) have adjustable suspension settings (castor & camber), so they can be set up correctly for drivig on the left side of the road. Better still, get a 5th wheel caravan so the load is placed over, or just in front of the rear axle, and dually tires at the rear make the combo so much more relaxing to drive. Why do you think millions of 5th wheels are sold each year in the US.
Seeing the loads many people in the USA carry and the distances they go really shows how light duty Australian options are for towing.
I’m talking 2-3 cars loaded on a trailer and going cross country like it’s a casual endeavour.
@@Diddydudat Just because we do it 'Murica! doesn't mean our 'Strayan friends should. :) Some of our drivers are as clueless as yours to the laws of physics (or reality generally).
@@markh.6687 : ha ha.. Exactly - There is "Right way' and the "Murican way". (jks) - For heavy towing, use a heavy truck. Rather than the "work ute". (People being able to drive heavy vehicles without upgrading licenses seems crazy - here is Oz, to Drive a truck, you need a Truck License no matter if "commercial" or not.)
@@kadmow Exactly! We suffer the same fools in 'Murica! that overload their trucks, cars, etc. and then wonder why their vehicle is bent, came apart under tow, etc.
@@markh.6687 At least you have "WhistlinDiesel" to show everyone how easy it is to break a truck through short term abuse. How long before MonserMax2 gets bent??All good to have a laugh, safe travels.
John, you’re not going to link to the 35+min video you posted approx. one year ago entitled ‘Triton gets bent!’?
i never had a dual cab until now ,toyota hilux 1998 diesel, and i never knew they bent like a boomerang, learn something everyday
Another fantastic explanation. Thanks so much for providing this in an entertaining and didactic way.
There is a business in Kununurra WA, Metaland, that repairs vehicles, Camper trailers and caravan, rescued from the Gibb River Road. They were over run with work this year. Most of this is due to people driving to fast for the conditions and hitting wash aways at speed. End up being a very expensive holiday. There are some interesting photo's of their FB page.
Love the channel, been following for years. Big fan of the technical deep-dives and the perpetual call for common sense to rise to the occasion in all driving conditions.
Two things you can do stop your ute bending over backwards. One weld some universal beam along the chassis or two cut it in two weld in a section and then cut the overhang off so as to give a longer wheelbase without increasing the overall length of vehicle that way your rear wheels are where they should be for best load carrying capabilities.
And doing it all at highway speeds on rutted roads. They do seem to feel that the vehicles are indestructible. I mostly drive classic cars, and my youngest vehicle is a ‘97 Hi Lux dual cab. On the odd occasion that I’ve driven that on an unmade road, it feels like vehicle abuse to do over 60kph.
Lot of folk seem to have a severe lack of mechanical sympathy when it comes to driving in adverse road conditions etc. 8 years of driving on the Steep Point road here in West Oz has shown some rippers.
I already knew 100% of this, but watched it anyway because this clown is entertaining and I dig it.
In aviation we have a weight and balance envelope we can use to calculate loading. We can narmal and utility envelopes. The engineers tell us what the machine can do and which envelope to use. Maybe they should make s phone app to plug in numbers to see what you're getting into. It could work better than loading the back with you own, straping it down and saying "that won't go anywhere"
lol, sir.
Car Drivers generally don't have the discipline, or care factor to weigh their load. Otherwise they would all either be Engineers or Pilots. (joke)
Yes, It could be relatively "simple" to make a load chart... But normally, if the front tyres touch the ground frequently enough, "She'll be right mate? Trailer Loading?? Ohh that is a tough one (sharp breath intake)
Spell check and edit is a handy feature. (yep I miss the odd one here or there)
@@kadmow I hear you. Most people may blow it off, much like GA. However it would be a nice tool to have at hand.
Why don’t manufacturers put the axel in the right bloody spot ?
Company’s like Ultimate Stretches in Sydney are fixing this problem by moving the axel back on (ranger) for example by 350mm then fitting a space cab tub. Had mine done and it handles and tows 10 fold better then stock. 👍🏼
It is because the Dual Cabs aren't really designed for work (or play), they are designed to put your kids in the back seat, then take you to the jobsite as foreman. (or the Mrs to the soccer)... All based off the Work Truck with single cab...
Regarding vehicle modifications, i telephoned my insurer a few years ago to inform them that i'd lifted the body two inches and fitted a raised air intake. I explained that i'd fitted modified radius arms to maintain steering geometry etc and she was fine with that. As soon as i mentioned the snorkel, she got very concerned about any engine modifications and then went on about had i upgraded the brakes? I had to explain very slowly what a raised air intake was and that it probably actually reduced my engine's power due to the longer run the air was taking. Still not convinced i had to hold while she went and discussed it with someone else because presumably, i was full of shit and didn't know what i was talking about...
Maybe change insurance companies. We have spent now in the last four years $40k worth of mods and accessories because we’re stupid but they’re actually itemised and fully insured with the car. ‘Club 4x4’ is the insurance company.
Maybe John C, utes could use a light axle to support the rear of the chassis????
The other consideration is the work load being placed on the Turbo diesel engine/gearbox.
Some camper vans here are known for being too light in the gearbox and occasionally the Gearbox SHITS itself leaving you stranded! The Dealers keep a Spare rebuilt Gearbox for the next camper van to arrive on a flatbed tow truck.
I have heard the 'Great Wall' Chinese made utes are a little light in the chassis, No doubt they will improve them! Here ( NZ ) an old HiLux still commands a good price, If you want to know why watch Top Gear HiLux ute!! 👍👍
All of this I have been aware of and often wonder about the Ute's with a caravan on the Back tray. I have always been aware of DUTY of disclosure to insurance companies about vehicle modifications etcetera.
People tend to upgrade the rear suspension when they concider carrying & towing excessive weight but overlook the possibility of upgrading & re-engineering the chassis & wonder why things go horribly wrong as they forgot 🤔 leverage pays a significant roll in bending.
My recommendation is, if you have your vehicle lifted, you should get an engineering report and road worthiness certificate as part of the package.
Even then if you don’t declare that modification to the insurance company they can still refuse to pay a claim.
How to mitigate or avoid this problem: Extra cab version.
Or better yet, single cab wellside, weight can then be evenly distributed over the rear axle. BUT no one makes these anymore...
Dont overload the tub. He said that in the beginning. and further to that don't load the tub up and then add a big heavy assed trailer to it.
They do, but special order.
"Disaster is the girl that can't say no" ......... that is a winner.
Hi John, Thank you yet again for an informative video. Here in the UK there is one main marque that has the chasis failure you describe. It is due to internal corrosion of the box section at the lowest point. This is caused by side appetures in the box section directly over the rear axle. In winter the salt on the roads gets thrown up by the tyres and some enters into the chasis box section. About 5 years down the road the truck(ute) fails it's annual inspection as the corrosion has broken through to the outside. Bob
Vehicle manufacturers put the load capacities at the utmost "legal" maximum to trick people into buying vehicles.
Those maximum capacities assume a lot of things: flat road. brand new perfect condition vehicle. absolutely balanced trailer, etc.
At 75% load capacity, we are already pushing the limits of the truck. Many owners go to 100% or more of their vehicles load limits.
Now add hills, worn parts, uneven surfaces, combined braking/bumping/turning forces, shifting loads. Breakage or crashes result.
1 - DONT load your vehicle past 75%. 2 - Buy a Bigger Stronger vehicle if you need more capacity.
Stay gold.
The bring your home along with mods cons and extensions to have a rough it out camping trip has hit the Australian shores.
The actual camping (minimal, light and basic necessities and equipment) are fast going out.
It is being replaced with the mods cons of ducted aircon, ducted heating, lcd tv's, domestic fridges, domestic stoves, instant hot water, pressurized water, lights galore, year supply of water, full sub station capacity, all the contents of the garage and attic etc.
I often told the Dingo Piss Creek mob, that the only effective way of lifting a car, without effecting the suspension geometry, is to fit spacers between the front end, and the chassis, which opens a whole can of worms re steering shaft length, hard brake lines, driveshaft angle, wiring length, etc, and your handling would still suffer, because you've raised the centre of gravity.
Oh, and that's just for the front.
Then, I mentioned that it would be a visual lift only, and wouldn't improve the ground clearance one iota..
Also note where the US Trucks such as Ram, Silverado, F Trucks have their rear axle. They are centre under the tray, not at the front of the tray.
Yes, their weakness is that they sit on a ladder frame chassis which isn’t that strong and is subject to bending if the weights either side of a given point are too great. Monocoque is the way to go as it’s typically much stiffer than a frame chassis - sure it can be damaged by overloading too but I’ll take monocoque any day over ladder frame chassis. It’s a shame they don’t make a monocoque Ute where the rear is part of the whole.
You are so right - in harsh & off-road conditions the dynamic loads are far greater than the static loads. Even a roof rack rated to 100kg, has a static load of 100kg limit. The dynamic load limit might only be 75kg meaning in off-road driving conditions you can only load up 75kg on the roof max.
In 1980, I was a branch manager in Rabaul PNG for the Datsun/Nissan importers. Back then we saw the banana chassis failure even on the king cab & crew cab models with just factory rear well type trays in the 4x2 and 4x4 models. The previous 620 series never did this, & Datsun/ Nissan sent us chassis reinforcing kits which under today’s Lemon Laws would have meant full refund of purchase price as we still had to straighten the chassis, weld & bolt the kit on whilst trying to regain the buyer’s confidence that it was still a great product.
Possibly more interaction between the engineers & the dealers would be better than discussions between engineer’s & accountants
Mateeeeee, jus buy a Ranger dude. I got me a 2.2 Ranger and dog, I put a checker plate steel tray and canopy on her and a steel Bull bar with a 25,000lb winch Filled her up with dual batteries, two 33s hanging of the back and 2 Jerry’s. A steel roof rack for me swags and gas bottles. I stick me 5 slabs in there in the BCF fridge and me and me 4 mates pile in the beast and bush bash all day and night. We rip shit and bust and the old Ranger still goes everywhere lmfao
Good on you.
@@joelcolgate3683 I hope you realise that was humour
I saw an e bananafication of an Isuzu ute here in Cairns only yesterday. I think the elderly driver was completely oblivious. Maybe it had only just happened. Would you feel it from the wheel if it was a gradual bend throughout the day? He was towing the world's largest caravan. Thought of you straight away John.
It would happen in one hit, as opposed to gradually. It's not like sagging. More like overloading, when you finally bend a piece of wire after loading it up. With the right/wrong van, you could probably bananaramify a ute on a speed hump.
He was probably one of those blokes that say towing weight limits are only advisory.
@@geoffdrew5207 And the Laws of Physics are only suggestions.
@@markh.6687 They laws of physics are for scientists... That's what he's say.
I have spent decades in the Aussie outback and have noticed one simple thing.
Over the past 30 years, the number of people heading bush with just way to much freaking BS has gone through the roof.
All that BS does is add weight, and the vast majority of it is not needed and is usually NEVER USED.
All you need in the bush, is something to sleep in, something to cook on and eat, something to get yourself out of the crap, a shovel and a bogroll.
Hell even something to sit on is a luxury.
Wise advice indeed John about the insurance and the bit of 'scare' thrown in reminding people that they can lose their house etc - it is a FACT. HA - unfortunately - the old saying - "Facts remain facts even if chosen to be ignored" - is practised by far too many on a far too regular basis. And as an LLB - I have become very aware that the vast majority of people are not responsible for their own stupidity - someone else is - HA. Have a safe and nice day all. CHEERS from AUSTRALIA.
Leverage and loading - then I watched your video - leverage and loading. Keep the weight above or distributed over the rear wheels. The rear wheels are a pivot point, then again, when was the last time adults who drive utes played on a see-saw and understood weight distribution and leverage?
When was the last time you saw a see-saw at a park? Swings yes, see-saw um not so much. As for those ones that were around in the 60s and 70s, those big planks of Vic Ash were great for knocking teeth out and would cost a fortune today if they didn't get stolen for lintel beams.
Where I live in Adelaide (north) always see trucks coming in from the outback with bent utes, all models, I kinda laugh overloaded back ends and owners thinking that they have a truck and they only have brought a glorified sedan with a compromised chassis built on being lightweight not strong.
You really would be laughing if you were in the "4x4 Repair Industry"
The bent chassis problem is the result of the Id10t error code being applied at time of purchase.
But they were so sure they'd paid extra for the premium "disobeys the laws of physics" upgrade kit that the hot blonde in the mini-skirt sold them. She certainly seemed to be disobeying that gravity one up top.
Getting back to suspension lift , i order my utes lifted with a gcm upgrade from the dealer , new , and full disclosure to the insurance company , surprisingly the cost through dealer is no worse then doing it privately after purchase .
Public information broadcasting at its finest, than you John!
Yes good point John. Club 4x4 has good insurance coverage for modified 4wd vehicles. But even then you really need to read between the lines. It pays to be within the legal limits of your State or at least have an official engineer's certificate. If they prove that the illegal modification was the cause of the accident, you will be in for a world of hurt.
Thanks John, you brightened up my day 😁😁🍻
I actually drove past a ford ute which looked exactly like this at the Duck Bridge in Berrima Street, Wynnum, Queensland. When the warning says, low bridge, 1.9 metres. They aren't kidding. I felt very sorry for them as it was a work vehicle and the boss wasn't going to be happy.
Seen a couple of wagons as well who forgot they had a roof tray on and with lift kit on just didn't make it under that bridge. I see at least one a year,the little bridge further up off tingal rd catches a few as well because of the dip underneath.
I wonder at any stage of the ARB/TJM and others pimp shopping list does the supplier of these must have 4x4 items tell the customer that if you fit all the items in the load list YOU WILL BE OVERLOADED....my son had his Hilux pimped out and as a test, loaded it up with a weeks worth of his camping gear and got it weighed guess what overloaded. However; it is the 4x4 market from the glossy adds, You Tube and off roading shows (blue singlet crowd) where all the must have accessories are fitted and sponsor the shows...and you modern 4x4 can go anywhere....after-all if the facts were told then the market would collapse.
Many years of driving in the Army, a vehicle rated to say 12 ton load, is reduced to 6 tons to allow for the off road stresses on the vehicle....mind you I have see many a Army Land Rover Defenders loaded up with equipment way over the 1 Ton loading....was not me honest...with a 1/2 ton trailer....
I have a 110 Land Rover Defender wagon that has the ARB Bull Bar and Winch, fridge and draws, but do not over load the interior with heavy items, I also tow a 2 Ton off road van which is also not overloaded, thus the vehicles weight design limits are maintained, also wagons are stronger in the chassis as the roof and sided also contribute to chassis stability.
I do have a modern dual cab ute which I bought to also tow the caravan, but prefer towing the van with the Defender as it is more stable.
Well you should have seen the F100 ambulances we used to drive in Sydney. Fully loaded it was like driving a boat. The auto fluid used to boil and the brakes smoked when pushed hard. We even broke a chassis crossing Marickville road on Illawarra road at around 70kph.
Older Landrovers used to say that load capacity was halved for off road conditions.
The other factors that break them is the washout double bounce, hit one and land on the second, just like a bad motorbike landing - with the light load shocks and 999kg now 5000kg
Good work John! No, not for this, but for cancelling the Submarine contract with the Frogs. I have no doubt whatsoever that the powers that be in Stralia have been watching your uploads and saw that buying anything French is unwise. When you can't depend on their cars it would be grossly wrong to put Stralians in French built dirty diesel submarines. The look on Micron's face was classic as he tried to comprehend his loss of billions of dollars from the Evil Union coffers. Again, thank you John Cadogan for your services to the common people. I have already cancelled my order for a new Land Rover Defender following your article. Land Rover deserves its demise having moved production to Slovenia from the UK.
The Slovenian's will improve the build quality to a "bit less shit"....
RACQ are notoriously difficult to get a satisfactory claim with on standard passenger vehicles.
Arsehole company for sure... Remember the Brisbane floods fiasco?
Never had a problem with claims through RACQ in 45 years insuring cars, houses and contents with them. Currently five vehicles on the policy.
Excellent video John. You hit the nail very squarly on the head, with both parts of this video.
I surprised how many regular (Ute) visitors to DPC don't consider Strengthening their Chassis or consider a Shorter Diff Ratio compensate for their bigger wheels and to aid in the transportation of their Ablution Block.
Thanks John - the ‘she’ll be right’ attitude pervades the Australian psyche hence for example the demise of Holden and Ford manufacturing in OZ - I’m quietly amused by the ute upgrade fan boys and girls who happily throw their hard earned or ill-gotten cash into the gleefully open hands of many accessory/GVM upgrade/canopy build businesses that know these owners just cannot resist the badge of honour of having the best off-road setup in their street - my low-fat ute setup is perfect for me and legal with no need for showing off my attributes when I safely arrive at Dingo Piss Creek - John in SA
Hi John, your right as a person that lives in the outback, the dickhead factor comes into play with speed and washouts at the bottom of a dip on a gravel road, l have helped many drivers who have taken out the front end ( mainly ifs models) and a few bent with overloaded rears and oversized caravans when braking hard, hope your blog about this subject sinks in, cheers mate, Neil.
Not just Tritons - seen plenty of bent BT50's
Bent is the normal in today’s world
It's certainly a choice.
@@AutoExpertJC more like an option you can’t opt out of.
A certainty after Lockdown #6 with extensions.
I'm going to posit that the "superior" structural integrity of ute-wagon derivatives) is that their loading use-cases are much more conservative. People probably don't fill up the back of a wagon in the same way as they would a ute, and any roof top tent would be more centrally located with respect to the wheelbase. The other thing is, most of the wagons have coil sprung rear ends for ride comfort; and so in addition to their GVM being derated (compared to the ute) the longer travel/softer sprung rear end will make overloading them far more obvious, even to an untrained eye. Ultimately, it's the dynamically indeterminate additional loading of the chassis through the bump-stop that provides the bending moment required to actually bend a chassis. I doubt that the floor of a wagon body will provide all that much resistance to prevent chassis bending and it might not necessarily be perceptible if it did happen.
In most saloon cars the roof and the passenger cage contribute considerably to the stiffness of the chassis as a whole. The same is true of ute derived wagons. You only need to look at all the extra strengthening a "cabriolet" car needs compared to its roofed equivalent. The roof doesn't need to be all that strong to have a huge affect on the stiffness of the floorpan/chassis because the bending forces are acting at a long distance, and are mitigated by leverage.
The long wagon body will distribute the load in a way that avoids tension spikes in the frame.
@@IanSlothieRolfe I cut the roof off a 1987 ford escort. And the sills collapsed. They were rusty but it had been doing fine up till then. Roof must have been holding the whole car together.
It must be clearly said this is primarily a dual cab issue. ....
Because nearly all dual cabs are derived from a single cab design that is intended to have the vast majority of it's payload and tray centered over the rear axle
hate dual cabs die die die. :)
I work in construction. This is akin to building a triangle vs just having a beam. The triangle gives any structure significantly more strength. The cab upfront is more stiff due to having multiple "triangles" tying into the underlying beam below. The bed below doesn't have that making it weaker. Throwing massive amounts of weight in this structurally weaker element of the truck is rather silly as it acts like a huge lever. It's all about context
What I don't quite understand is why there is that gap between the cab and the bed. What is the purpose of that?
So the same vehicle/chassis can have several tray options eg Ute vs Tray etc many are sold as cab/chassis.
Comparing a dual cab's structural integrity with a Troopy, or 105 series wagon, is similar to comparing a convertible car to a station wagon. The convertible's door apertures being the weak spot, as is the gap between the tray/tub and the cab. Even a Commodore ute - having the tub sides attached to the cab, would be a stronger bodyshell to resist bending.
Reminds me of something I saw, quite a while ago. A HK series Holden ute - travelling on a main road in Melbourne. The tub was full to the brim with wet concrete. The rear wheels must have been rubbing the tops of the inside 'guards. A bit like that XXXX ad from years ago.
The other very important thing to understand is that troopies and 4wd wagons, have far less rear overhang past the rear wheels than any of the utes ....... AND nearly all the bodies fitted to utes extend beyond the rear of the chassis some considerably so
Yes, very much so, and yet the dual-cabs are so over-promoted for their towing abilities.
@@railtrolley : Or their "family friendly nature" for Tax Minimising "corporate tradies"
Leyland didn't manufacture the King Dick spanner. King Dick was a Tyseley, Birmingham based company that manufactured spanners up until the 1980s, although they were round the corner from the BL/Land Rover casting plant. They now seem to be referred to as Abingdon King Dick. I used to go past their factory on the way to and from work each day (a lifetime ago), which had the words King Dick proudly displayed high above the manufactory for all to see from both the main road into Brum and the railway to its rear.
So, this blows you're theory of Leyland's superb spanner manufacturing out of the water, which I suppose means that they never created anything worth buying, which by and large I'd agree with.
It's also true to say that King Dicks were popular in the printing industry, in which my family worked over several generations and which has now gone like all things British - down the pan.
"Give me a fulcrum and a large enough lever and I shall move the world".
I saw a near new Triton Duel Cab come to grief after it hit a bump and the whole front drivers side wheel fell off... suspension arm, brakes, the whole lot. Wasn't your typical outback washaway bump, it was the legendary Northcote Plaza Hump. That put me off Tritons.
Interesting that British Leyland actually made something long-lived :)
Probably made under contract by somebody else, fortunately. But "British Standard"? Is that the thing with Whitworth bolt sizes and such? I'm from 'Murica, but Whitworth always stuck in my head for some reason.
@@markh.6687 Sounds about right. The most common is British Standard Pipe threads BSP, versus the US NSP, National Standard Pipe. Then there is Metric Pipe.
@@markfryer9880 Thank you, good Sir.
Well my 1972 Jaguar XJ6 is certainly much more reliable engine and interior wise than my W123 Mercedes!
Hi John,
Thanks for your report on bent ute chassis.
I have a Musso ute with coil spring rear suspension thereby creating a single rear suspension load bearing point as opposed to a leaf spring vehicle which has 2 load bearing points (or 3 if lift bag is added).
Is the chassis of my coil spring rear suspension vehicle more or less likely to fail if overloaded ?
No
Anybody remember the Castlemaine XXXX advert when the two guys were loading up the ute with beer and they put two bottles of wine on for the women and it collapses? Brilliant ad, "Bloody sheilas"
Interesting you don’t see chassis strengthening options being marketed.
The FORD Raptor comes to mind. They made plates you could weld to strengthen the frame, same place as these small trucks.
I think that spanner should be a bit of a collector item as unlike most Leyland products
It’s still here
I didn’t know they made such a thing , I’m off to try and find some now 👍👍
Thanks for trying to tackle the camp fire engineer with reality and logic that would mitigate the problem but I think that the triton has the shortest wheel base that equates to the longest over hang behind the back wheels that makes it a little more prone to the Bent chase phenomenon
Seems to me to be an easy fix by the manufacturer of the truck, surely just a bit of low cost redesign with regard to strengthening the frame would fix this problem?