Don Sadoway is in for a treat! Fuel Free Magnet Motors, have been around since 1710, when Gottfried Leibniz was examining old Mathematical Texts from India, and noticed they already had figured out "The Calculus". Today we call the Johann Bessler "Orffyreus Engine" a Switch Release, Halbach array, Permanent Magnet Motor. Andrew Carnegie got Nikola Tesla to install them at his Steel Works, though we suspect Electromagnets were deplored, as permanent magnets were not as strong back then. Today these Switch Release Halbach array Gantry Crane Hoist Magnets safely lift two tonnes, and are remarkably compact. Read The Andrew Carnegie Official Biography (Google Books) and learn how he was filibustered out of delivering his keynote speech, at the Steelmaker's Federation Annual Meeting. Andrew did manage to shock the entire audience by saying he could pay his workers three times the scab labour wages of his two main competitors, who were losing money hand over fist selling steel at $14 a ton (Gold was $20 a Troy oz.) and Andrew declared that at the next General Meeting he would explain how Fuel Free Energy allowed him to make a good profit selling the very best quality steel at only $9 a ton.... He never made that speech, because J.P. Morgan on instruction from his Rothschild Bank backers, bought Andrew's Steel Empire out for 4,500 metric tonnes of Gold. In fact only Paper Certificates at 5% Interest payable in Gold Bullion were delivered. "Sue Me for breach of contract, Andrew and you get nothing, your big mistake was going 50-50 with your workforce. they get nothing as well if I declare bankruptcy." In just over a week, it is the Centenary of Andrew Carnegie's departure, from a broken heart! The Bloody World War ended with a new World War looming, and FREE ENERGY buried! 1919. These Halbach Array Switch Release Engines have gigantic torque. As testified in all the contemporary literature.and eyewitness accounts. The Diamertic polarised cylinder magnets had to be wrapped in cloth to hide the magnetising hammer blows, and were then deceptively referred to as 'Weights" (about four pounds eact) China have all the details now, so as they say "Denial is not a river in Egypt! " and even better China have access to the minerals like Lanthanum, and Neodymium. These motors can also be 3D Printed The NITTO DENKO cold sintering powder is stronger that top grade N-52's. No more phone battery charging very soon.
50 years ago I was working for a small electronics manufacturer that did something amazing. They hired bright young people and threw them into a lab where they could sink or swim and he wasn't concerned with what letters came after their names. The result was a small company that beat the pants off large competitors because we never worried about trying something new. the company fo;ded 25 years ago when the founder retired and sold it to a consortium that didn't understand how the place worked. All the technical people scattered to the winds and while nobody got rich, they all used the training they got at that small company to grow in their fields and hopefully show the incoming talent how to think outside the box.
Hyperion Industries, Watertown, MA i was lucky because it was a small company I got to do EVERYTHING, big companies tend to keep you in a very tightly strictured cubby hole. i started as a jr technician and worked my way up to engineering and management with nothing more than a high school education in electronics and a willingness to learn.
Correct, as always. Our group is, and has been for 10 years, or more advocates of Dr. Sadoway. His development is needed for decentralization / re-build of the grid. Great Physicist.
I love it when I see technology leaps like this that actually EXIST. So much of the time we see breakthroughs announced that never make it out of the lab. This one, I'm expecting good things from. Well done, Dr. Sadoway!
This works because it doesn't have to be portable. It's stationary, so the weight and the bulk won't matter. I can imagine a multiple story building size battery for the community use. Other way of saying it is it's a step above lead-acid battery. For the portable devices and transportation, they still have to come up with something else other than Li-Ion. I think. We'll need many more battery technologies for different uses. There probably won't be one dominant technology.
Assembly is almost impossible since no one has figured out the bus work on top of the cells (make a bus work that all you have to do is bolt together).
this competing for large storage backup on an industrial scale against gas/oil backup generators and pumping water up a hill, it's not about mobility. if Li-Polymer batteries can be improved they would be the next step past Li-Ion for mobility - some variations of Li-Ion are expected to be out commercially in the next few years, but none of these are capable on large scales of liquid metal.
I checked out Ambri's website. Like this video it's all promotion of the concept, but nothing about testing, or more specifically, commercial testing. I'm not saying this idea won't work or he's a fraud. However, I want to see specific steps that will be taken by Ambri to bring this concept to fruition and a timeline to do so. I might excuse Dr Sadoway's lecture for not giving us a demonstration of mundane business planning , but Ambri's website needs to do exactly that to show that this company and its product is for real.
But he gives the answer to this in the lecture. The first and main investor was TotalFinaElf. The oil and gas company. They bought in, to squash this project, the O&G companies do this all the time. I worked for Chevron and you wouldn't believe how many alternative energy patents they own - all bought from original inventors. Just to make sure they never make it out into the world.
@@karlp8484 Sir, IMO, the only problem with this "theory" is that patents only last from 14 to 20 years. After the patent expires, the technology is public and can be used by anyone so, if the technology is viable/valid, why haven't private investors taken this to market? If there really was a 150 mpg carburetor out there (like I heard back in the 70's), one would think some car company, like Chrysler back then, GM or a independent, when it was going broke would market it?
Wow....just...I'm speechless Wowed. This changes everything. I am so glad for the internet and what it has done for the human race to spread these idea's so others like myself so we can add and better life not just for people but for all life on the planet.
They report that they won't finish the first major commercial deployment until 2023, which is a bit surprising given that they had photos of numerous apparently-working cells in 2016. ambri.com/business/
every single time I've seen an oil company invest in some kind of new energy technology, that tech has NEVER come to fruition. A company in TX was developing jet fuel producing microbes. they made a test flight from TX to CA using microbe generated fuel. it was working great. once the oil company bought them, though, they put out a press release saying that hopefully in 20 years, they would finally have some fuel to show. the shell eco marathon has been an ongoing joke since the 1940's, when the winner got 150MPG... the current record there is some crazy number like 26,000 MPG... so where is any of the tech? Stanford Ovshinsky was just building 3 manufacturing plants to be able to make enough asphalt based solar shingles to roof the world. once cheveron got a hold of the company the first thing they did was shut all that down. so why do you expect that taking money from an oil company will do anything whatsoever except completely thwart your efforts, while keeping you in a constant state of anticipation of some kind of pending release of your technology?
The best kind of Professor, expects better results from the uncluttered minds of the Students who still rely on his long-term knowledgeable delegation to begin acquisition of practical experience, but with a different and current perspective. Is the Grid Customer/consumer always right? The Henry Ford is attributed to the idea that if he'd asked the public what they wanted, they would have said "faster horses".
And to Steve Jobs can be attributed the great popularization of 'people want you to tell them the technology they should want'. I suspect the great majority of 'Grid Customers' mostly care that the Electricity Fairy provide ample reasonably consistent electricity at the lowest possible "deregulated" cost, and consideration of storage of "charge/current buffering" as in these large distributed-meighborhood projects (the GURL system of space conditioning is another example in a different field) requires more careful education to prioritize.
Absolutely fabulous lecture. I can not recall when I recently or ever listen/read to quarter an hour speech that so comprehends and logical. Something so spectacular that even Me with nature to find defects or improve cannot find a fault or better. Congratulation Professor.
The more I see about this man, the more I like him (Battle-hardened! Tenured means never having to say you're sorry!). He has a sense of humor, as well. I wish him all success! P.S. I subscribed! Great stuff!
At 28 minutes he states that magnesium doesn’t burn. Can somebody please explain. Magnesium is highly flammable in their pure form. I’m sure I’m missing a chemistry lesson here however I know Magnesium burns in molten or in powder or ribbon form.
@@pjpa305 ??? Why would it need ANY connection to ANYTHING? With a Powerwall battery of sufficient size, you can be completely off-grid. That is actually how millions of homes today already are.
@@billdale1 That is why I asked. I watched a review on it recently. And that was a major complaint. That because it needed connection to Tesla's servers to operate, that if the grid goes down, your "off the grid" power also goes down. It would be a major draw back of the power wall for me. Hence my question to someone who owns one...
Thank you and congratulation for the lecture on the Philosophy we should have when we are involved in the fields of science and technology: to mantain a free mind.
"No computational materials science, no rapid throughput screening doo dah doo dah, I sat and I looked at this thing and figured it out by raw intellect."
the issue of whether the unit generates energy on it's own or not determines if it is a battery, or a giant capacitor. The description seems to indicate capacitor.
@@BracaPhoto you do know the difference between a capacitor and a battery, right? They are superficially the same in that they can charge and discharge, but there are other issues that make them different.
All very good but all we need to know really is: the duration of the battery, the efficiency of the battery, the energy density per kg and volume of the battery and the cost of storing 1kWh. Simple.
This man is a true professor! He is not only confident in his research but he pushed passed the Nay Sayers... He is now an authority in his field but sounds very humble (I doubt his grad students feel that way - I'm sure he's a slave driver) - no one got anywhere worth anything without working hard though. He clearly has studied philosophy and the art of learning and first hand learned how to sell a used car to a masarati driver. Sweated out that lecture in a full suit... boss. I wouldn't shake his hand, I'd give him a high 5.
I am not a rocket scientist but every thing I heard maid seance I am watching this for the second time but Dr Sadoway makes a lot of seance to me.The science is complicated but that don't mean it don't make seance good luck
Tesla effort in Australia provided proof of concept with lithium battery less expensive than old coal and natural gas peaker plants! Now Ca, South Korea, and Australia lining up larger battery projects. So, the issues of how to use batteries should be sorted out by the time, if ever, this guy, or someone else, makes a demonstration level plant-and demonstrates much lower costs. There are multiple professors out there with fantastic sounding battery concepts. Not to be discouraged-but many try and few are successful
Running small-scale laboratory prototypes is fine, but for this technology to get off the ground, Ambri needs to partner with a public utility to build a pilot plant where the technology can be exercised and demonstrated in a real-world situation. This could be done even if the first batteries are inefficiently hand-built, without the automation envisioned for a full-scale factory.
Yes. I'm wondering in scaling to the extent of using concrete enclosures, with suitable refractory and steel linings. As he said the larger the more efficient and he also reported relatively low pressures. It is a very interesting idea. I'm sure that given some experimentation with Bismuth and some other similar metals they will find lower temp metals that will make the cells more efficient. I'm thinking in particular of the many different low melting point Bismuth alloys, such a fields metal, etc. There are also quite a number of different Lead alloys with different melting points. I'm sure there will be a few recopies that could yield some improvements.
Great video, fully watched. Only thing which was irritating is Amp hours rather than Watt hours :| Thought he said in video that voltage = 1V, so it's same as Watt hour, in the presentation they could had used more scientific Wh (watt hour) notation.
ampere-hours are a pretty standard measure of battery performance, so perhaps think of this as the same 'legacy' as American preference to express engine power in hp instead of kW.
love what your doing Professor Sadoway. may God speed. Perhaps some sort of tubing exchanger could be incorporated as a cooking and space heating benefit. Also I currently use about 10 KWHr per day and probably half of that is for the refrigerator, if you could give some thought to cold with your chemical wizardry it might also prove fruitful for the world. You remind me of that song "WE ARE THE WORLD" good luck.
The numbers I've heard indicate that Tesla lost tons of money on the Australian battery. Given some of the numbers he presented (and by the way he DOES have prototypes running at this point...) -- The smaller cells with on-going stress tests showing the lack of degradation over cycles... I'd put the batteries in a shed in my back yard. The battery in Australia also doesn't really have the problem of cold temperature, where the LI batteries fail if you try to charge them below about 0 C. The solution there is electric heating. But that will take many watts of power.
@@Billblom Probably a better solution is a 'ground source heat pump' style loop combined with good superinsulation in the shed structure. For the running cost of a very small circulating pump with a fan on it, this produces reasonably consistent 55-56 degree at the inside heat exchanger; you could always use some of this as 'source' for a dedicated refrigerator-compressor-sized heat pump running as a "heater" only (no reversing valves and few potential failure points) if you need a higher rate of heat transfer to air.
@@wizlish The ground water is not very far down... Having a 5 to 7 ohm ground reading here (done with a megger) means the water is close by for heating and cooling. Keeping the system "happy" would be easy when the shed is well insulated. I had been looking at a vid where the guy that put together his battery system simply put the batteries in a well insulated box, and lined the box with some heating blankets that drew about 20 watts... The temp was set for 50 on them, so there would be no overheating because of the heat. (Along with a couple of thermocouples tied to a small computer that would turn off the power to the heating system). I need to look into a ground source for the house here.. the installation would be ugly, lawn wise, but would cut the costs of heating and cooling dramatically.
Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) for semi trucks would be large untapped market... noisy, troublesome, fuel consuming, environmentally dangerous. Would be awesome to see in trucking industry if size permitted. Thanks
I can't see why not. Though it depends on how well the thermal management and insulation works. Ideally there shouldn't be too much heat external, or that would need be replenished in some way, costing energy, as would taking energy out from inside the insulation boundary. It is swings and roundabouts. However on larger installations it way be feasible, certainly for a heating source.
This video was a "recommended for you" on my youtube page, and I had just watched the CBS video talking about this man and his "revolutionary technology." What struck me is that there was not one bit of real information about HOW this battery was supposed to work, why it was inexpensive, and how it could last into a long cycle of use. I wonder if anyone else thought of that as being just a tiny bit too vague......? At least in this presentation, we have some specificity about the theory. Clearly, this can fit in with the current (sic) grid technology, since the battery can be charged overnight by the grid in summer, and discharge during the day during the high air conditioning load to help prevent brownouts.
@@billdale1 Good question. I am an EE not a chemistry expert and I found this presentation to be very understandable and quite in depth as to how this battery will function. Unfortunately it seems energy has become a highly fractured religion.
Art Houston - OK, but in this video Prof. Sadoway DID discuss the huge economic benefits of what I call "peak shaving" (the highways analogy). We also need grid and neighbourhood level storage to support the intermittent-power producing renewables. Now, if the 'powers that be' could revise the regulatory framework and remove assorted roadblocks we could get somewhere in making civilization more efficient and sustainable.
Fascinating! I solder electronics under a microscope for a living, solder is made of tin and lead, and solder's melting point is BELOW that of tin or lead. This lecture reminded me of that.
This is an awesome presentation and he seems like a genius, BUT THEY REALLY NEED TO SIMPLIFY THEIR MESSAGE AND HIRE A GREAT SALES TEAM, A LOT OF THESE TECH SCIENCE GUYS FORGET TO HIRE A GREAT SALES TEAM
I love this concept. Hope it comes to fruition at commercial scale. Will work fine for transport applications too, of course. An issue for longer term storage in these liquid metal cells could be keeping a battery pack at its operating temperature. I guess you could play self-charge/discharge games by having a couple of cells at a low state of charge, then by grouping up pairs of batteries in series you get higher voltage than a single cell, then the pair can 'charge' the low cells (which are connected in parallel with a lower voltage), keeping both warm, then the now-discharged cells can be the sink for the next pair. The BMS can run this game on any cell whose temperature is getting too low. There will be some losses, but it is a method to keep the pack temperatures where required.
I think this would be good for cyclone/hurricane areas where each house could have an onsite battery charged by solar and hooked into a local grid. In the case of storm damage to the grid, each house would be able to stay powered and the grid of batteries could supply an area even if some houses do not have solar panels until that grid can be repaired. This means that neighbourhoods can keep running, food supplies can be kept fresh, local stores and fuel stations can draw from the local neighbourhood batteries to keep operating until utilities can be reconnected. Command electronics over the grid (similar to current technology where internet can be transmitted over the household electrical wiring) can be used to ensure batteries can cycle from the local solar panels while the household draws from the grid. It would probable speed up community recovery.
They had it at $500 per kWh in the chart for the whole system. That's what current LiFeOP4 battery systems are already selling for. With Lithium batteries still having a chance of a 2x improvement in the next years. They probably have to go back to the drawing board to get them cheaper.
The theory sounds valid. I've seen his previous lecture on TED. It's been many years now. This thing is made of primitive materials and easy to manufacture. Where is a working battery tied to a house with solar? If it's so simple, surely 5-10 years later this would be rolled out to every nook and cranny around the globe. The demand for this is literally mind boggling. Literally would make someone a trillionaire in a couple years. I would give the guy $5000 for a working 1kwh battery just to mess with it... But, I see nothing... hmmm
"easy to manufacture?" I'm not sure you watched the same lecture I did. The claims I saw are: high energy density (80Ah/16in^2), high charge density (300 mA/cm^2), scalable (
An intellectual TOUR-DE-FORCE. Maybe he IS the next Volta. He IS quite inspiring. I would NOT bet against him!! LOVE the idea of a small solar FARM, with neighborhood (or village) capacity. BRILLIANT!!! Whatta MIND!!
On this cell, once charged how do you keep the liquid metal melted with no current flow as in simple storage? In the storage is there going to need a constant current flow , and would there be losses involved to maintain the charge ?
How long will it take to charge and how fast can we discharge it? A Lithium ion Tesla battery can go from 10-80 in 20 minits and to a 100 in 2 hours, how about your battery? Also, is it possible to put this battery in a car? Or is the temperature thing a problem?
He stated that it is capable of very high current density. In other words, power can come out quickly. Unlike the Lithium Ion Batteries in the Tesla, you can increase the capacity of the Aluminum/Antimony battery by making a bigger pool of Aluminum and a bigger pool of Antimony. And if you make the capacity very large, then it will take you a long time to discharge it. So how quickly you can discharge it depends on how big those "pools" are.
@@jwestney2859 Keep in mind that in a circulating battery, charge density can be independent of discharge rate. So 'how much charge is in the battery system" is very different from "how much" or "how quickly" can I get charge out of the battery as circuit electricity. 'Current density' here refers to the part of the structure that does the latter, and it's important for charge rate, but part of the idea here is that the 'charged' liquid can be continuously circulated out of the actual 'electrochemical' structure, at which point it has become a 'carrier fuel' as much as, say, syndiesel or liquid products of hydrogenation, and theoretically stored and pumped much as liquid fuels are.
(26:39) what really amazes me about this technology is the fade rate! for a battery to operate for 10 years-charging and discharging once a day-while still maintaining 99% of its original energy capacity is unheard of (at least by me). in fact, i'm actually surprised that i _hadn't_ heard of it before. that said, i really hope this idea is successful (not because i fear Climate Change-of which i think mankind's role has been _grossly_ exaggerated-but because of all the great new technologies and scientific advancements that are likely to follow).
I was wondering if it is suitable for off grid solar power? I guess it would have to be used with hybro or wind turbines also. To keep it from cooling. If there is no sun for a while. And is there a minimum operating current? I'd like to have about 30 large cells , my off grid lithium ion bank is 29.4v, so I guess 28-29 cells @1v each? And at what cost?
While economy of scale is a Thing, it's also an It Depends. Economy of scale demands that we only use rail transport. Individual needs demand that we have the automobile. (First example that came into my head.)
Could you mix water with the salt ? And use metals that melt at low temperature as long as its melting point is under the boiling point of water if not water a liquid will work
Wow, this makes a lot of sense. Clearly he has a challenge to establish a market for grid-tied batteries. But I don't see any flaws in his science nor in his business approach. When I listed to Elon Musk, I see flaw after flaw in his spiel. I am a harsh critic because I have a degree in science and a degree in business and many years experience. When listening to Professor Sadoway, the science makes sense. And the business plan makes sense. I am not sure how quickly he can create the market for grid-tied batteries, but I am willing to bet that this will succeed.
@IThinkWithMy Dick Hope big brother don't smoke his ass first. Quite a few inventors of disruptive technologies have either mysteriously disappeared or died under questionable circumstances. The world NEEDS this so i hope he succeeds.
Multiple electric companies are pushing to get tax credits for investing in energy storage. If the push goes through then he will have a market to sell to.
J Westney: you're a sad fool! Elon has already saved you and everbody else on this planet a fortune by making commerce virtually instantaneous, replacing a system that often required weeks for even the simplest transaction to finish before someone would ship you the widget you ordered (PayPal). That was his first multi-billion-dollar enterprise. Then reduced the cost of space launches by tens of millions per launch by finding a way of reusing his boosters, a system that the entire industry and even astronauts disparaged him for. "Landing boosters on barges at sea?!? Is he on ACID???" His second multi-billion-dollar enterprise that is saving EVERYONE big bucks by reducing such things as cell phone bills, and reducing the cost of gov't. Then he succeeded in creating EVs that within just a few short years were getting the highest ratings ever, from Consumer Reports and the NHTSA and others... cars the entire industry proclaimed were a laughingstock--- until, of course, he was receiving hundreds of thousands of orders, WITH HUGE DEPOSITS, WITHIN A SINGLE DAY... that is something no other product in history has ever done, before or since. He started Solar City, a fourth multi-billion-dollar company (which was since bought out by Tesla). He has started several other massive businesses since then, all of which are innovative and groundbreaking. You haven't mentioned any of your accomplishments... you are not mentioned in Who's Who... in fact, I can find no mention of you. So, tell us all about what breath-taking, daring entrepreneurial accomplishments you have made, dear sir? Billion-dollar companies? Ooooh, I thought not.
this makes a lot of sense to you ? whereas you see flaw after flaw in Elon's spiel? Tesla has been selling EV's, powerwalls, a battery factory of some sort all in the past several years whereas I've been waiting for Ambri to deliver something, anything for years. Not wanting to be demoralizing but it's a double standard when you put Sodoway on a pedestal and dump Musk in the trash. Two key vital stats that you should zero in on regarding Ambri's amazing batteries. 1. His conversion or efficiency is about 70%. I'm not clear whether that's one way or round trip. And because this is his basic energy conversion, his efficiency is as bad as a car engine. How do you ever overcome this deficiency? 2. His device needs to operate at about 400 degrees Celsius. Progress from the initial 1,300 degrees but nevertheless imagine having a 400 C furnace in your garage 24/7. Overcoming these two vital areas if your device has any moving parts means you'll have to be dealing with leakage. Over time, constant changes in pressure, temperature, chemical changes, you are going to have to address leaking. And indeed his coming out party more than 2 years ago was postponed due to leakage in his design flaw. I came to this site because it was the follow up site from the new CBC interview about his "new" device but disallowed posting comments. That interview is the one that had more holes in it than the spiels of Elon. Not any mention of whether and how he's been able to solve his problems.
Hey @@BerriBerriJam The approach that Sadoway described in the video makes sense to me. Grid-tied, utility-scale energy storage makes sense to me. Using chemical elements that are abundant and cheap makes sense to me. Developing batteries that have a useful life of decades makes sense to me. This is all explained in the video. I do not picture Sadoway's battery in a car, nor in you garage, nor in your cell phone, nor in anything with moving parts. I did not imply that, and if you inferred it, then you inferred incorrectly. HERE IS WHAT I DO PICTURE. I picture a beautiful, sunny island. Let's take Puerto Rico for example, generating electricity from sun, wind, and tide. And I picture each village having a storage battery big-as-a-shipping-container near the edge of town. I picture those batteries getting charged when the sun shines and when then wind blows. I picture a family as the sun goes-down, turning on their lights, cooking tropical dinner (yum), and streaming videos. They have energy when they need it: after dark. I picture this instead of the "old" model where oil is imported into San Juan, then burned in a turbine to make electricity that is distributed by high-voltage wires criss-crossing the island. I still picture some fossil fuel being used -- because buying enough batteries and solar to do the whole job would be affordable only for the richest people, and that is not acceptable. In tropical climates, utility-scale, grid-tied batteries can help renewables become the main-stay. That is what I picture. No offense to Elon Musk. Let him fill the garages of rich people with roadsters and lithium batteries. We will take renewables any way we can get them.
Why can't the cells be round? We do work for a customer we run sheets of 310 stainless steel and RA330 on our punch/laser. The customer has a robot roller that rools them up and welds them. It is cheaper to roll the sheet into a cylinder than it is to form it on a brake or draw it through a die.
You're drawings look like a tank sized unit, but your product is 10x10 cm. Would municipal systems be on the scale of meters or are there problems with making large liquid metal batteries?
Interesting. How is the battery initialized? Once manufactured the working elements have to be melted for it to function. Does it use a built in heating element or a more clever method of some sort. I take it that it's the charge and discharge heating that keeps the internal parts molten but even with the best insulation it wouldn't take long to solidify. Apparently it's best application would be something like solar which would need a back up power source each night. Or did I miss the point somewhere? Out of the box thinking like this is sorely needed. Hope you and the company are successful!
Part of the reason it's designed to be stationary is the high temperature -- see the history of sodium/sulfur batteries for a parallel. (PS: modern nanoinsulation either with multiple shields or aerogel has made sodium/sulfur an attractive chemistry for many portable applications again) An assumption for 'grid' power is that you use the storage to even out the cyclical supply from many kinds of renewable, so you don't 'cycle' the battery temperature once it is brought to operation. Means to heat a cold battery up to operating temperature might be considered as transient as full blackstart at conventional primary generation plants
Because it relies on heat retention to keep it liquid is it safe to say this isn't very viable for long term energy storage, but amazing for grid balancing and daily balancing for renewables?
That’s was my take. There’s a lot of solar being added ad hoc. ie, without benefiting master planning, or any planning. So rapid absorption and return is key. Almost like a capacitor. And he pointed out that a design goal is diurnal, not like continually storing power for winter. So I think that there may be an environmental condition of warmer climes, or underground. Either way, this a 3 yr old presentation. So it’s something to catch up on.
@@barrygroeneveld6901 ... Seen that video as well. Big container box. No test results. No preliminary reports. No journal articles published. No specs. No output estimations. Nothing. Nil. Nada. Zilch. Just a big white box (with a bunny rabbit inside) And 6 years of RUclips videos by the marketing manager
@@barrygroeneveld6901 Ok. Stories about stories. That article is dated 2017. Its now 2019. I wish this project very good luck. I'd like to buy this product if it comes into the market.
Going off-grid doesn't have to be expensive or complicated. It does require rethinking the way we use energy, particularly optimization of the way we use AC and DC. Off-the-shelf appliances are rarely energy efficient in terms of battery storage. DC appliances with BLDC motors are still a niche market, although with a little imagination, some skills and a desire any appliance can be reengineered to match generation capacity and form, including three phase. Conservation and efficiency are sadly lacking in most consumer electrical products, including electric cars. There's simply not enough grid capacity for a North American electrical fleet. The notion of a global grid is more science fiction at this point. A simple solution is to decentralize generation and rationalize consumption, in terms of capacity. There are loads of business opportunities out there.
Ken: you say EVs are not very efficient, and North American grid cannot handle the load. You are totally wrong on the first point... the typical EV is ~ 4 to 8 X more efficient than an ICE car; as for the grid capacity, you are missing the point, and are obviously not following what is going on. EVs actually ENHANCE use of the grid in a variety of ways. EVs are rarely charged during the daytime when load is at its maximum. They are charged at home, at night, when load is so low that EVs are being charged with energy that would otherwise go to waste. When energy use drops significantly at night, it is a serious problem for generating plants, especially coal generators. Such generators cannot start and stop at a moment's notice; battery backups, like the massive one Tesla just installed in South Australia, happen to be ideal for that exact function... they have kicked in within a few hundreds of milliseconds during a power failure, such that residents there were never even aware that it happened. In the months and years previous to that, massively disruptive power outages were common, and quite costly. When a power grid is robust, it does not crash as was typical in South Australia. But it is nonetheless a very problematical balancing act; when usage drops too low, generators cannot adjust quickly, and they cannot simply drop to any level desirable. If usage drops too low, the grid must literally dump excess energy into the ground--- gigantic terminals driven into the Earth take the excess energy, heating up the ground below with no end other than keeping the grid from crashing. I have two meters on the side of my house. One records the energy usage of my house; the other is a complex smart meter that measures not only how much energy my EV takes when charging, but what TIME it is being charged--- between 11pm and 7 am, my electricity only costs me 25% of what it would cost if I charge during the day. There is a third tier... between 7pm and 11pm, when rates are partly reduced. There are other sophisticated rate structures used by other utility companies in other counties and states. Another way EVs help out is called V2G, which stands for Vehicle to Grid. It is a system used in some areas and some foreign countries, in which the utility companies rely on EVs to back-feed some of their energy to the grid in the event it comes close to a blackout. It does not happen often, but on hot days or other times of excessive grid load, the utility sends a signal to the EVs that are online, asking for some juice. If the EV owner has his EV set to backload-- it has to be done with the EV owner's explicit permission--- the EV pushes energy back out to lighten the grid load, preventing a blackout. The more EVs connected to the grid, the more practical it is, and the EV owners are well-paid for the use of their energy. There is much more to it--- actually quite complicated, but relatively transparent to the EV owner--- but utility companies are quite relieved to have EVs on their grid, as it helps keep them from having to build very expensive new power plants, and the headache of finding places to install them in cities where there is no affordable real estate that is properly zoned and agreeable to nearby residents. No, EVs are NOT the problem you assume them to be, but a solution to many of their problems.
@@billdale1 try calculating the power demand of a completely Electric North American fleet based on a Tesla model three and the average miles/day travelled in the US. When you've done that convert gasoline energy capacity to M-joules to create a peak demand, then compare with the present energy peak generation capacity of the entire US grid. Its all on Wikipedia. My rough estimate was 14x the present peak load capacity. Either Electric vehicles need to get way more efficient, or there will need to be more generating capacity to offset fossil fuel energy input.
billdale1 Yep, very true. It’s amazing how much happened in the last few years. Every year we add millions of EV. Huge potential for SW controlled battery storage.
@@kokopelli314 you, sir, are busted... the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing, doing your damnedest to spread disinformation and "fake news" about EVs, for the obvious purpose of keeping Americans addicted to oil, and to fatten the wallets of the oil oligarchs. Anyone who claims to be as well-informed as to direct readers to Wiki data to "prove" that EVs are a dead end, could not possibly have spent so much time reading up on electric vehicle tech without running into the term "V2G", which completely deflates any such misinformation you try to spread. "V2G", or "Vehicle to Grid", is a means for electric vehicles to be part of the solution of energy supply rather than part of the problem. It goes much further than just V2G--- there are thousands of people just here in the L.A. area that have been driving electric for long enough to show that EVs are sustainable and practical, and will one day soon replace the UNsustainable gasoline whose price can do nothing but continue to rise until it will eventually be too expensive for anyone to drive. I have been driving electric for more than.a decade and will never go back to fossil fuels--- driving without all that vibration, noise, oil changes, tune-ups, smog tests, noxious fumes while standing next to fuel pumps, and so much more. My money will no longer go to support people who are already drunk on money.
Exchange current density of i0=600 A/cm^2 is indeed freaking high. Yet whatever happens it more or less always boils down to the ohmic drop having an important influence if not being the most important contributor to losses. Is there any information on that? Also, what I wonder is if you could make a liquid metal redox flow battery. And ... Approach of "dirt to make it dirt cheap" is something that a lot of influential people and industry will find to be a convincing strategy ... well done!!!
I love that quick discussion on flow Batteries at the very end. I believe in flow batteries but they certainly appear to be passing through the valley of death.
Ich dont think so. I mean Vanadium is an example of non abundant element and is expensive. In this case I could envision something like pumping the Mg and the Sb and solidify/freeze dry them (respective the MgSb alloy into solid) for storage. And later you can remelt them when needed Anyway flow batteries are a technology as batteries with certain pros and cons. You could also be tempted ot say that batteries are not going to make it because capacities are too small or materials too expensive. Also, cell voltage versus iR drop in the electrolyte I think is important for the overall efficiency. Molten salt doesnt have a high reisistance, plus as he said reaction velocities are much increased at higher temperatures and I really do think that a molten metal flow battery could eventually be one of many possible solutions
How hard is it to restart completely frozen batteries? How much energy does it take? Are they built for that? Where are the heating electrodes for cold start? ... Missing chart for comparison flowbatteries energy density ecologic impact ... There was that flow battery with a drinkable liquid (water and iron...) those units ship in shipping containers? Battery Fueled by Iron and Water Could Transform the Power Grid (ESS Inc. Wilsonville OR): ruclips.net/video/HmtI8Wat7rY/видео.html 02:41 50kW/400kWh one shipping container probably 40feet Used containers ^^: www.mrbox.co.uk/shipping-containers/
You don't have to 'restart' a frozen battery, you just have to thaw it to where the charge carriers in the electrolyte can actually move (this being at a lower temperature than the nominal phase change of water around 32 degrees F) Part of the 'historical' problem with frozen batteries is that water expands when it freezes, and this can damage the internal structure. Another part of the problem is that 'charging' a frozen battery doesn't automatically "melt the freezing" first and then proceed to fill up the capacity. One of the 'paradigm changes' with these circulated-electrolyte batteries (where so much of the "charge" is in the distributed reservoir and not in the 'battery' section that actually moves electrons in circuits) is that you can relatively easily drain them (into an insulated and/or heated 'tank') if they are not being used, or subject to freezing, and then refilled at need, so the issues with trying to charge ice don't ever practically arise...
So we changed ALL Vehicles to legally need a Catalytic Converter(CC) that contains Platinum and what’s worse the CC’s only work once the engine has got to optimum temperature. Considering 80% of car journeys are under 3 miles means for nearly all journeys the CC is not only not working, but causes the vehicles to burn more fuel!. But besides that I’ve seen a couple vids on yt of people who have made Platinum free Fuel Cells.
This isn't too complicated. It certainly doesn't take a genius to understand. Now, Dr Sadoway, the geezer talking on the stage, who was running the project, understands all this on a fundamental level and was instrumental in it's development. I dare say could be called a genius. Though I doubt very much he would consider himself to be so.
Awesome discovery! Not sure if these batteries would work in vehicles because of the high temperatures and the "sloshing" around causing other issues. Looks like a winner otherwise.
Even with anything resembling “sloshing” keep in mind the density of what it’d be, and the lack of space to do so. It’d be easier to work with larger vehicles than smaller ones, due to the heat issues. Even then, if you really got worried at all about sloshing (and the specific gravity of the components combined with their natural chemical affinities seem to be self-regulating) it seems it’d be easy enough to deal with via a suspension system.
Parking lots use to be sized for Christmas shopping. That is why they are so massive. I don't understand this technology but there has to be other ways. Considering this is 3 years old I guess it is operational now but I'm still using a Trojan T105.
You probably assume he's telling the truth and he's very clever. But how do you know? What I know is that he's very wrong about LI-ION batteries so I'm wondering how much he really knows. He's good at selling himself and his ideas, but that doesn't say anything. I for one am very sceptical of the way he talks about himself mostly. I bet there are people who know more about it all than we do.
So... wait... If these things run hot, could you run a sterling engine generator off the excess heat and use that to help charge the batteries? I mean surely there's a way to use some of that heat in an "energy reclamation" capacity as well.
Well, yeah, and you could make up an array of cheap TACs and make a little more 'free power' off the Stirling exhaust. How much capital and maintenance expense can you justify for the marginal electrical generation? That's the only real reason most technically-workable bottoming approaches don't get used.
@@wizlish as all a Stirling engine requires is a temperature gradient to operate (that was a Beta vs VCR thing with the steam engine back in the day) It's not exhaust. Stirling engines ran whole machine shops, a legit, functional, significant generator could be run off the 200 or so degrees these batteries reach while charging, with which you could charge another, and another, etc.
@@ryanjamesloyd6733 There is more to 'bottoming' than just the heat differential. And of course an expander of any kind has an 'exhaust' -- here it's in the steam-engine sense, the flow of 'spent' air that has finished doing work on the pistons or other power-generating structure. The heat content in this could be used in at least one further optimized Stirling, but it would be so large and run so slowly as to be essentially worthless in justifying its (large) fabrication cost. Therefore using thermoacoustic devices to recover any further waste heat would be better -- assuming you could make and connect them cheaply enough to justify the exercise. There is no question that one of these batteries at 'neighborhood' scale would produce sufficient heat -- and the heat does need to be removed from the cell structure -- to justify making and using a bottoming cycle of some kind. It is certainly worthwhile to consider a hot-air engine instead of, say, an ORC bottoming arrangement to do this, provided the effective heat flux is kept high enough to fulfil the 'primary purpose' of battery cooling at any point in charge/discharge. I would further note that, at the voltages these batteries will run, any generator driven by a Stirling could be directly used to produce charging current for the battery, and this might usually be a nontrivial contribution to baseline grid power, with relatively unattended operation and long service life. In fact. you can calculate more or less exactly what the heat flux from a given LMB would be, figure out how to circulate that to the Stirling displacer, and figure out the scale of engine and developed shp at best speed that corresponds to this. (Personally I'd use multiple engines sized around the expected charge and discharge characteristics of the particular LMB, as I expect the developed heat will differ with time of day as the battery system is commanded to charge and discharge, so 'one size may not fit all') From that you can easily determine the percentage of engine output that translates into electrical generation and then transversion to 'battery electricity' (DC at extremely low voltage). That will give you a number that will confirm or deny the capital practicability of installing it as a commercial bottoming system.
There are multiple references to Ah - but without specification of the voltage. The voltage is not always the same. So there is something really important missing, right?
No, there isn't. Much electrochemistry is only concerned with the charge that is moved, which is directly measurable in amps (i.e. cumulative coulomb transfer) and not the rate. Hence you commonly see battery ratings in amp/hr and not "watt-hour". At least part of this is that the output voltage observed in many practical battery chemistries is dependent on the state of 'charge' and may vary substantially depending on the rate or state of discharge. Be careful when comparing primary electrochemical battery design to reversible storage batteries, too.
I understand the superior potential of his batteries for grid purposes, but I would like to know if this kind of battery is compatible with eletric cars. As nobody made this question, i'd apreciate if someone could answer.
Think about it geometrically: the volume grows by the law of cubes, but surface by the law of squares. There is heat to maintain in these batteries for them to keep functioning and putting out power, whether they’re actively being used or not. Perhaps a different type of battery can be used to do the initial heating. But, what is unclear to me is how much of the potential output requires heat as input. If used in electric cars, oddly, it’d make the most sense in always-rolling vehicles that keep getting charged many times per day due to being used heavily. For your typical family car, I believe it’d have too much heat loss to make a lot of sense, which would also require a lot of power for recharging them. However, on the bright side, no battery fade in the lifespan of the electric car driver, especially of a family car! And, as explained in the video, it’d be even safer in an accident or puncture: no thermal runaway, it’d just seal itself as it cooled. The biggest risk in my assessment would be how much insulation got damaged, and the latent heat setting off flammable things such as dried grass and leaves. Current electric car battery round trip efficiencies are around 95% according to a web search, and thermal management is required for them as well, but to keep them from degrading, so they also discharge over time when not actively being used. As long as the charging costs are lower than gasoline, it’s still a win for the charge/refuel equation. What I don’t have numbers on are the weights of the various liquid metal battery chemistries for their energy storage: I suspect they're notably heavier, so that may not work in their favor for cars and efficiency,
what about *Thorium* ? its abundant, local in the US, considered a by-product in US rare earth mining and the US has estimates of over 1000 year supply. the technology was tested, proven safe and reliable back in the 50s through to the 70s and killed by Nixon because he wanted bombs built in California.
@@DiHandley Thorium reaction "burns" waste from our current nuclear reactors and is why you cant make bomb material from the by-products. the reaction is much more efficient and walk-away safe, meaning no melt-downs.
a power plant can be the size of a small warehouse and can be modular, no need for long transmission lines, built near to where the power is needed and expanded as demand grows. i think its a perfect "stop-gap" measure and give humanity time to develop long term energy solutions. solar, wind and battery technology is not ready yet and may not be for a while.
@@ericmartin2470 "Thorium reaction "burns" waste from our current nuclear reactors" Thorium fuel cycle is Th 232 + neutron -> Th 233 -> Pa 233 -> U 233 Our waste is mostly U 238 and Pu 239 and is nothing like thorium breeding cycle. It has nothing in common. "you cant make bomb material" U 233 is weapons material. USA and India tested bombs made out of this material and decided that Pu 239 is better material but that doesnt mean you cant make bombs out of thorium reactors. The negative is that thorium reactors would shut down if you take out U 233
@@user-py9cy1sy9u A nuclear reactor consumes certain specific fissile isotopes to produce energy. The three most practical types of nuclear reactor fuel are:Uranium-235, purified (i.e. "enriched") by reducing the amount of uranium-238 in natural mined uranium. Most nuclear power has been generated using low-enriched uranium (LEU), whereas high-enriched uranium (HEU) is necessary for weapons.Plutonium-239, transmuted from uranium-238 obtained from natural mined uranium.Uranium-233, transmuted from thorium-232, derived from natural mined thorium. It is difficult to make a practical nuclear bomb from a thorium reactor's byproducts. According to Alvin Radkowsky, designer of the world's first full-scale atomic electric power plant, "a thorium reactor's plutonium production rate would be less than 2 percent of that of a standard reactor, and the plutonium's isotopic content would make it unsuitable for a nuclear detonation." Several uranium-233 bombs have been tested, but the presence of uranium-232 tended to "poison" the uranium-233 in two ways: intense radiation from the uranium-232 made the material difficult to handle, and the uranium-232 led to possible pre-detonation. Separating the uranium-232 from the uranium-233 proved very difficult, although newer laser techniques could facilitate that process
I'm curious if he would be capable of building different sized batteries like this for individual homes? He'd own the market. Farms with solar panels and one big battery like this, or manufacturing shops in the country potentially with lots of solar panels running off one of these would cut power costs potentially and make north America more competitive.
Seems to have lots of potential, good luck to them. I do however wish the comparison of this battery to synthetic fuel generation as an energy storage mechanism were brought up, as it may be one of the better competitive technologies for bulk energy storage. I would argue that instead of aiming to supplement peak demand with stored energy you could instead tap off-peak surplus capacity with industrial process and synthetic fuel creation capacity which could supply the market with carbon neutral fuels. (this of course would require much increased renewable and nuclear power to ensure clean production.) Some battery-type load leveling may still be required but the bulk of it could probably be handled by industrial demand.
Bob Saturday he is talking about using surplus electricity to create fuels that are easilly stored. Creating hydrogen for example with that electricity. The problem with that is that it is a very inefficient way to do it. It could be attractive in certain situations but is not usefull as the main way of storing acces energy.
thats the point the liguid metal battery is 75% efficient after accounting for thermal losses , nearly the same as pumped hydro , so what ARE ya blithering about ?
Could you convert New Zealand's Tiwai Point Aluminium smelter about to be decommissioned by NZAS into cheap battery storage? Or better into a Carbon free Steel smelter using Taranaki iron sands?
FYI 1. It takes decades to develop something from the ground up, from lab to manufacturing. Give it time. 2. This kind of batteries are most likely for grid scale. So I think it would be Powerwall < Flow batteries < Liquid Metal 3. It's mainly competing with pump hydro so stop comparing to other types of batteries. 4. When we can produce too much renewable energy and don't have enough storage this tech will be the only solution and that's a long way to go. 5. Oil companies can turn into energy companies by using this tech because these days they invest a lot in offshore wind turbines so it's unlikely for them to buy this technology out and throw it away just to stay in digging oil.
"Takes decades to develop"... yadda yadda... NOOOOOOO. The lithium ion battery was invented in 1980... they started powering smaller stuff--- cameras, Walkmans, radios, soon afterward, and have been energizing our cars now for nearly twenty years, and have been going through countless iterations of improvements the entire time, so that the most state-of-the art lithium batteries can power an EV well in excess of 300 miles--- my 2017 Chevy Bolt was good for 366 miles max when I got it 27,000 miles ago, well in excess of its warranted range of 238 miles, and is still well in excess of that. The newest Tesla Roadster, which is not yet released, has advanced chemistry battery packs, has a range in excess of 620 miles at highway speeds, has a 0-60 mph of 1.9 seconds--- there is no ICE car on the market that can come close--- and it has a top speed of 260+ miles per hour--- WITHOUT A TRANSMISSION, not even a reverse gear. No EVs require a reverse gear, because unlike ICEs, electric motors can turn backwards. No transmission means eliminating as much as 140 lbs. of weight, and a huge source of mechanical and maintenance costs, and reliability problems. I digress. No, progress with EVs, unlike ICE cars, does not require decades to show off enormous levels of improvement; in less than two decades now, EVs, batteries, ultracapacitors and EV electronics have already made them far more desirable, practical and reliable than ICE cars, and EVs are very close to being cheaper on the sticker price as well.
@@billdale1 Wrong. Lithium metal based battery was proposed in 70's. John Goodenough further developed to commercial in the 80's. It takes few years in the lab to create something in "research" but takes decades to be "proven technology" and "commercial viable". And I don't get your other paragraphs. Those are just irrelevant.
Wow!!! A man who understands both science/technology AND economics. You don't see that very often in academia. :-)
And style.
Don Sadoway is in for a treat! Fuel Free Magnet Motors, have been around since 1710, when Gottfried Leibniz was examining old Mathematical Texts from India, and noticed they already had figured out "The Calculus". Today we call the Johann Bessler "Orffyreus Engine" a Switch Release, Halbach array, Permanent Magnet Motor. Andrew Carnegie got Nikola Tesla to install them at his Steel Works, though we suspect Electromagnets were deplored, as permanent magnets were not as strong back then. Today these Switch Release Halbach array Gantry Crane Hoist Magnets safely lift two tonnes, and are remarkably compact.
Read The Andrew Carnegie Official Biography (Google Books) and learn how he was filibustered out of delivering his keynote speech, at the Steelmaker's Federation Annual Meeting. Andrew did manage to shock the entire audience by saying he could pay his workers three times the scab labour wages of his two main competitors, who were losing money hand over fist selling steel at $14 a ton (Gold was $20 a Troy oz.) and Andrew declared that at the next General Meeting he would explain how Fuel Free Energy allowed him to make a good profit selling the very best quality steel at only $9 a ton....
He never made that speech, because J.P. Morgan on instruction from his Rothschild Bank backers, bought Andrew's Steel Empire out for 4,500 metric tonnes of Gold. In fact only Paper Certificates at 5% Interest payable in Gold Bullion were delivered. "Sue Me for breach of contract, Andrew and you get nothing, your big mistake was going 50-50 with your workforce. they get nothing as well if I declare bankruptcy." In just over a week, it is the Centenary of Andrew Carnegie's departure, from a broken heart! The Bloody World War ended with a new World War looming, and FREE ENERGY buried! 1919.
These Halbach Array Switch Release Engines have gigantic torque. As testified in all the contemporary literature.and eyewitness accounts. The Diamertic polarised cylinder magnets had to be wrapped in cloth to hide the magnetising hammer blows, and were then deceptively referred to as 'Weights" (about four pounds eact) China have all the details now, so as they say "Denial is not a river in Egypt! " and even better China have access to the minerals like Lanthanum, and Neodymium. These motors can also be 3D Printed The NITTO DENKO cold sintering powder is stronger that top grade N-52's. No more phone battery charging very soon.
Successful people practice uneconomical concepts to get rich as plucky off the gullible suckers en masse!
50 years ago I was working for a small electronics manufacturer that did something amazing. They hired bright young people and threw them into a lab where they could sink or swim and he wasn't concerned with what letters came after their names. The result was a small company that beat the pants off large competitors because we never worried about trying something new. the company fo;ded 25 years ago when the founder retired and sold it to a consortium that didn't understand how the place worked.
All the technical people scattered to the winds and while nobody got rich, they all used the training they got at that small company to grow in their fields and hopefully show the incoming talent how to think outside the box.
@@bobc3895 What was the name of this company?
Hyperion Industries, Watertown, MA i was lucky because it was a small company I got to do EVERYTHING, big companies tend to keep you in a very tightly strictured cubby hole. i started as a jr technician and worked my way up to engineering and management with nothing more than a high school education in electronics and a willingness to learn.
Correct, as always. Our group is, and has been for 10 years, or more advocates of Dr. Sadoway. His development is needed for decentralization / re-build of the grid. Great Physicist.
Maybe an adequate physicist but is a failed businessman, entrepreneur, and inventor.
Definitely admire this guys thinking process. Interesting how he looks at the development of the metals before the electrolyte.
I love it when I see technology leaps like this that actually EXIST. So much of the time we see breakthroughs announced that never make it out of the lab. This one, I'm expecting good things from. Well done, Dr. Sadoway!
I was also hoping for a momentum.. unfortunatly the green climate neutral activists wont allow its scaling..
Still my favorite lecturer. Thanks Professor Sadoway.
This works because it doesn't have to be portable.
It's stationary, so the weight and the bulk won't matter.
I can imagine a multiple story building size battery for the community use.
Other way of saying it is it's a step above lead-acid battery.
For the portable devices and transportation, they still have to come up with something else other than Li-Ion.
I think.
We'll need many more battery technologies for different uses.
There probably won't be one dominant technology.
Assembly is almost impossible since no one has figured out the bus work on top of the cells (make a bus work that all you have to do is bolt together).
this competing for large storage backup on an industrial scale against gas/oil backup generators and pumping water up a hill, it's not about mobility.
if Li-Polymer batteries can be improved they would be the next step past Li-Ion for mobility - some variations of Li-Ion are expected to be out commercially in the next few years, but none of these are capable on large scales of liquid metal.
think of all the buildings amazon is putting on the market for availability like old K-Marts or old Blockbusters centralized and dirt cheap
One area of transportation which may be suitable for this battery is shipping where weight is less a concern.
I checked out Ambri's website. Like this video it's all promotion of the concept, but nothing about testing, or more specifically, commercial testing. I'm not saying this idea won't work or he's a fraud. However, I want to see specific steps that will be taken by Ambri to bring this concept to fruition and a timeline to do so. I might excuse Dr Sadoway's lecture for not giving us a demonstration of mundane business planning , but Ambri's website needs to do exactly that to show that this company and its product is for real.
www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/ambri-is-still-alive-and-chasing-its-liquid-metal-battery-dreams#gs.s9JbZBSK
But he gives the answer to this in the lecture. The first and main investor was TotalFinaElf. The oil and gas company. They bought in, to squash this project, the O&G companies do this all the time. I worked for Chevron and you wouldn't believe how many alternative energy patents they own - all bought from original inventors. Just to make sure they never make it out into the world.
You are dreaming if you think this will come to market before 2050
@@karlp8484 Sir, IMO, the only problem with this "theory" is that patents only last from 14 to 20 years. After the patent expires, the technology is public and can be used by anyone so, if the technology is viable/valid, why haven't private investors taken this to market?
If there really was a 150 mpg carburetor out there (like I heard back in the 70's), one would think some car company, like Chrysler back then, GM or a independent, when it was going broke would market it?
Wow....just...I'm speechless Wowed. This changes everything. I am so glad for the internet and what it has done for the human race to spread these idea's so others like myself so we can add and better life not just for people but for all life on the planet.
there are many concepts of large batteries now the nanoflow is one too
my worries is the patent system buries them to make extra money
I just watched this in August, 2019. Can anybody out there tell me how this project has progressed since October, 2016?
there you go to
ruclips.net/video/qRpQL1vFWLg/видео.html
They report that they won't finish the first major commercial deployment until 2023, which is a bit surprising given that they had photos of numerous apparently-working cells in 2016. ambri.com/business/
Acadian changes earth , proud of you Don. Thank-you brother and stay safe many greed brokers must be watching this intently
"I'll give them to you for free, but you gotta wire them." Love it. This guy is awesome.
He is brilliant. I love his style and use of clever humor. VERY dense info, natural professor. Reminds me of my own top teacher Douglas Raymond.
Zero fade after loads and loads of full cycles is awesome! A lot of this is great stuff.
every single time I've seen an oil company invest in some kind of new energy technology, that tech has NEVER come to fruition. A company in TX was developing jet fuel producing microbes. they made a test flight from TX to CA using microbe generated fuel. it was working great. once the oil company bought them, though, they put out a press release saying that hopefully in 20 years, they would finally have some fuel to show.
the shell eco marathon has been an ongoing joke since the 1940's, when the winner got 150MPG... the current record there is some crazy number like 26,000 MPG... so where is any of the tech?
Stanford Ovshinsky was just building 3 manufacturing plants to be able to make enough asphalt based solar shingles to roof the world. once cheveron got a hold of the company the first thing they did was shut all that down.
so why do you expect that taking money from an oil company will do anything whatsoever except completely thwart your efforts, while keeping you in a constant state of anticipation of some kind of pending release of your technology?
Doesnt make sense that capitalist don't capitalize on new things
@@Pernection Counter Intuitive
maybe because it's not the only investidor
Bill Gates is funding it as well, and I don't think he has any plans to preserve oil status quo.
Ya don't wanna ruin the economy, lol.... Whoever said the "economy" was supposed to be "economical"? Not a capitalist I tell ya.
Riot4Peace the best economy happens when we innovate so much it puts the old economy out of business over and over again.
The best kind of Professor, expects better results from the uncluttered minds of the Students who still rely on his long-term knowledgeable delegation to begin acquisition of practical experience, but with a different and current perspective.
Is the Grid Customer/consumer always right? The Henry Ford is attributed to the idea that if he'd asked the public what they wanted, they would have said "faster horses".
And to Steve Jobs can be attributed the great popularization of 'people want you to tell them the technology they should want'. I suspect the great majority of 'Grid Customers' mostly care that the Electricity Fairy provide ample reasonably consistent electricity at the lowest possible "deregulated" cost, and consideration of storage of "charge/current buffering" as in these large distributed-meighborhood projects (the GURL system of space conditioning is another example in a different field) requires more careful education to prioritize.
Absolutely fabulous lecture. I can not recall when I recently or ever listen/read to quarter an hour speech that so comprehends and logical. Something so spectacular that even Me with nature to find defects or improve cannot find a fault or better. Congratulation Professor.
I liked the Excitement, But where are they NOW!!!!
probably bought out by oil cos and retired
Never had a prof like this when I was in school. Quite a dissertation!
The more I see about this man, the more I like him (Battle-hardened! Tenured means never having to say you're sorry!). He has a sense of humor, as well. I wish him all success! P.S. I subscribed! Great stuff!
Really great presentation! Don could do stand up if he gets bored with chemistry!
At 28 minutes he states that magnesium doesn’t burn. Can somebody please explain. Magnesium is highly flammable in their pure form. I’m sure I’m missing a chemistry lesson here however I know Magnesium burns in molten or in powder or ribbon form.
The *PowerWall* may be expensive, but the first time the neighborhood lost power and I didn’t notice?
*_Priceless._*
Doesnt the Powerwall need an active internet connection to work?
@@pjpa305 ??? Why would it need ANY connection to ANYTHING? With a Powerwall battery of sufficient size, you can be completely off-grid. That is actually how millions of homes today already are.
@@billdale1 That is why I asked. I watched a review on it recently. And that was a major complaint. That because it needed connection to Tesla's servers to operate, that if the grid goes down, your "off the grid" power also goes down. It would be a major draw back of the power wall for me. Hence my question to someone who owns one...
. PJ Pa No. Internet connectivity is only needed to read the battery's state and change parameters. It can charge and discharge independently.
@@tomswiftTTT Thanks Mike!
Thank you and congratulation for the lecture on the Philosophy we should have when we are involved in the fields of science and technology: to mantain a free mind.
"No computational materials science, no rapid throughput screening doo dah doo dah, I sat and I looked at this thing and figured it out by raw intellect."
the issue of whether the unit generates energy on it's own or not determines if it is a battery, or a giant capacitor. The description seems to indicate capacitor.
Ummmm you do know a capacitor IS a battery right?
@@BracaPhoto you do know the difference between a capacitor and a battery, right?
They are superficially the same in that they can charge and discharge, but there are other issues that make them different.
All very good but all we need to know really is: the duration of the battery, the efficiency of the battery, the energy density per kg and volume of the battery and the cost of storing 1kWh. Simple.
He's a fraud. He doesn't have the technology yet. He admits that pumped hydro is cheaper and it's just water in a damn Dan.
This man is a true professor! He is not only confident in his research but he pushed passed the Nay Sayers... He is now an authority in his field but sounds very humble (I doubt his grad students feel that way - I'm sure he's a slave driver) - no one got anywhere worth anything without working hard though. He clearly has studied philosophy and the art of learning and first hand learned how to sell a used car to a masarati driver. Sweated out that lecture in a full suit... boss. I wouldn't shake his hand, I'd give him a high 5.
Instant empathy with that (scientific) guy.
I am not a rocket scientist but every thing I heard maid seance I am watching this for the second time but Dr Sadoway makes a lot of seance to me.The science is complicated but that don't mean it don't make seance good luck
this reminds me of the introduction of the ice machines that was disruptive to the 'natural ice' industry :-)
Nice work
Little known fact: poorly maintained ice makers can incubate and spread disease.
@@NibsNiven Interesting... any supporting links would be appreciated
Tesla effort in Australia provided proof of concept with lithium battery less expensive than old coal and natural gas peaker plants!
Now Ca, South Korea, and Australia lining up larger battery projects.
So, the issues of how to use batteries should be sorted out by the time, if ever, this guy, or someone else, makes a demonstration level plant-and demonstrates much lower costs. There are multiple professors out there with fantastic sounding battery concepts. Not to be discouraged-but many try and few are successful
Running small-scale laboratory prototypes is fine, but for this technology to get off the ground, Ambri needs to partner with a public utility to build a pilot plant where the technology can be exercised and demonstrated in a real-world situation. This could be done even if the first batteries are inefficiently hand-built, without the automation envisioned for a full-scale factory.
Yes. I'm wondering in scaling to the extent of using concrete enclosures, with suitable refractory and steel linings. As he said the larger the more efficient and he also reported relatively low pressures.
It is a very interesting idea.
I'm sure that given some experimentation with Bismuth and some other similar metals they will find lower temp metals that will make the cells more efficient.
I'm thinking in particular of the many different low melting point Bismuth alloys, such a fields metal, etc. There are also quite a number of different Lead alloys with different melting points. I'm sure there will be a few recopies that could yield some improvements.
Outstanding. That really was excellent.
Great video, fully watched.
Only thing which was irritating is Amp hours rather than Watt hours :|
Thought he said in video that voltage = 1V, so it's same as Watt hour, in the presentation they could had used more scientific Wh (watt hour) notation.
ampere-hours are a pretty standard measure of battery performance, so perhaps think of this as the same 'legacy' as American preference to express engine power in hp instead of kW.
love what your doing Professor Sadoway. may God speed. Perhaps some sort of tubing exchanger could be incorporated as a cooking and space heating benefit. Also I currently use about 10 KWHr per day and probably half of that is for the refrigerator, if you could give some thought to cold with your chemical wizardry it might also prove fruitful for the world. You remind me of that song "WE ARE THE WORLD" good luck.
Are these actually deployed anywhere? And so like the Tesla grid battery in South Australia, how much would a similarly sized one of yours cost?
The numbers I've heard indicate that Tesla lost tons of money on the Australian battery. Given some of the numbers he presented (and by the way he DOES have prototypes running at this point...) -- The smaller cells with on-going stress tests showing the lack of degradation over cycles... I'd put the batteries in a shed in my back yard. The battery in Australia also doesn't really have the problem of cold temperature, where the LI batteries fail if you try to charge them below about 0 C. The solution there is electric heating. But that will take many watts of power.
@@Billblom Probably a better solution is a 'ground source heat pump' style loop combined with good superinsulation in the shed structure. For the running cost of a very small circulating pump with a fan on it, this produces reasonably consistent 55-56 degree at the inside heat exchanger; you could always use some of this as 'source' for a dedicated refrigerator-compressor-sized heat pump running as a "heater" only (no reversing valves and few potential failure points) if you need a higher rate of heat transfer to air.
@@wizlish The ground water is not very far down... Having a 5 to 7 ohm ground reading here (done with a megger) means the water is close by for heating and cooling. Keeping the system "happy" would be easy when the shed is well insulated. I had been looking at a vid where the guy that put together his battery system simply put the batteries in a well insulated box, and lined the box with some heating blankets that drew about 20 watts... The temp was set for 50 on them, so there would be no overheating because of the heat. (Along with a couple of thermocouples tied to a small computer that would turn off the power to the heating system). I need to look into a ground source for the house here.. the installation would be ugly, lawn wise, but would cut the costs of heating and cooling dramatically.
This is the Most Important Invention of the Century.
Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) for semi trucks would be large untapped market... noisy, troublesome, fuel consuming, environmentally dangerous. Would be awesome to see in trucking industry if size permitted. Thanks
Can the thermal losses be captured and used for space heating, e.g. like co-generation?
I can't see why not. Though it depends on how well the thermal management and insulation works. Ideally there shouldn't be too much heat external, or that would need be replenished in some way, costing energy, as would taking energy out from inside the insulation boundary.
It is swings and roundabouts. However on larger installations it way be feasible, certainly for a heating source.
This video was a "recommended for you" on my youtube page, and I had just watched the CBS video talking about this man and his "revolutionary technology." What struck me is that there was not one bit of real information about HOW this battery was supposed to work, why it was inexpensive, and how it could last into a long cycle of use. I wonder if anyone else thought of that as being just a tiny bit too vague......? At least in this presentation, we have some specificity about the theory. Clearly, this can fit in with the current (sic) grid technology, since the battery can be charged overnight by the grid in summer, and discharge during the day during the high air conditioning load to help prevent brownouts.
No information on how it works?!? Did you actually WATCH it???
@@billdale1 Good question. I am an EE not a chemistry expert and I found this presentation to be very understandable and quite in depth as to how this battery will function. Unfortunately it seems energy has become a highly fractured religion.
Because the CBC audience is not the same as the Stanford audience.
Art Houston - OK, but in this video Prof. Sadoway DID discuss the huge economic benefits of what I call "peak shaving" (the highways analogy). We also need grid and neighbourhood level storage to support the intermittent-power producing renewables. Now, if the 'powers that be' could revise the regulatory framework and remove assorted roadblocks we could get somewhere in making civilization more efficient and sustainable.
Thankful for sharing this video. He is great chemistry and also engineer that I thought when seeing this presentation.
Fascinating! I solder electronics under a microscope for a living, solder is made of tin and lead, and solder's melting point is BELOW that of tin or lead. This lecture reminded me of that.
Alloys are funky things, aren’t they?
This is an awesome presentation and he seems like a genius, BUT THEY REALLY NEED TO SIMPLIFY THEIR MESSAGE AND HIRE A GREAT SALES TEAM, A LOT OF THESE TECH SCIENCE GUYS FORGET TO HIRE A GREAT SALES TEAM
I love this concept. Hope it comes to fruition at commercial scale. Will work fine for transport applications too, of course. An issue for longer term storage in these liquid metal cells could be keeping a battery pack at its operating temperature. I guess you could play self-charge/discharge games by having a couple of cells at a low state of charge, then by grouping up pairs of batteries in series you get higher voltage than a single cell, then the pair can 'charge' the low cells (which are connected in parallel with a lower voltage), keeping both warm, then the now-discharged cells can be the sink for the next pair. The BMS can run this game on any cell whose temperature is getting too low. There will be some losses, but it is a method to keep the pack temperatures where required.
I think this would be good for cyclone/hurricane areas where each house could have an onsite battery charged by solar and hooked into a local grid. In the case of storm damage to the grid, each house would be able to stay powered and the grid of batteries could supply an area even if some houses do not have solar panels until that grid can be repaired. This means that neighbourhoods can keep running, food supplies can be kept fresh, local stores and fuel stations can draw from the local neighbourhood batteries to keep operating until utilities can be reconnected. Command electronics over the grid (similar to current technology where internet can be transmitted over the household electrical wiring) can be used to ensure batteries can cycle from the local solar panels while the household draws from the grid.
It would probable speed up community recovery.
Great Show....Heck of the development. Reason it Out...
So this was in 2016 and China has not grown an industry from this mans work, astounding.
Cost per kilowatt hour assembled and on site about the same as stored hydro, and much, much cheaper than lithium, SO WHERE IS IT? Follow up please?
They had it at $500 per kWh in the chart for the whole system. That's what current LiFeOP4 battery systems are already selling for. With Lithium batteries still having a chance of a 2x improvement in the next years. They probably have to go back to the drawing board to get them cheaper.
The theory sounds valid. I've seen his previous lecture on TED. It's been many years now. This thing is made of primitive materials and easy to manufacture. Where is a working battery tied to a house with solar? If it's so simple, surely 5-10 years later this would be rolled out to every nook and cranny around the globe. The demand for this is literally mind boggling. Literally would make someone a trillionaire in a couple years. I would give the guy $5000 for a working 1kwh battery just to mess with it... But, I see nothing... hmmm
"easy to manufacture?"
I'm not sure you watched the same lecture I did. The claims I saw are: high energy density (80Ah/16in^2), high charge density (300 mA/cm^2), scalable (
@@vdinh143 please look at 48:13. It's written right on the slide :/
An intellectual TOUR-DE-FORCE. Maybe he IS the next Volta. He IS quite inspiring. I would NOT bet against him!! LOVE the idea of a small solar FARM, with neighborhood (or village) capacity. BRILLIANT!!! Whatta MIND!!
Electricity is reinvented I thank you for your wonderful work and open mind.
...and the aluminum plant emits how much CO2??
Great presentation.
On this cell, once charged how do you keep the liquid metal melted with no current flow as in simple storage? In the storage is there going to need a constant current flow , and would there be losses involved to maintain the charge ?
Yes but the question is how long can they stay hot and melted salts be viable if they were static with no charge or drain current ?
How many of those 8'' battery canisters would be needed to power a Tesla for 4 or 5 hundred miles?
Absolutely awesome! What an inspiration.
It is always fun to talk to people who understand!
How long will it take to charge and how fast can we discharge it?
A Lithium ion Tesla battery can go from 10-80 in 20 minits and to a 100 in 2 hours, how about your battery?
Also, is it possible to put this battery in a car? Or is the temperature thing a problem?
It's not for cars!!! It's for the Grid.
weight
He stated that it is capable of very high current density. In other words, power can come out quickly. Unlike the Lithium Ion Batteries in the Tesla, you can increase the capacity of the Aluminum/Antimony battery by making a bigger pool of Aluminum and a bigger pool of Antimony. And if you make the capacity very large, then it will take you a long time to discharge it. So how quickly you can discharge it depends on how big those "pools" are.
@@jwestney2859 Keep in mind that in a circulating battery, charge density can be independent of discharge rate. So 'how much charge is in the battery system" is very different from "how much" or "how quickly" can I get charge out of the battery as circuit electricity. 'Current density' here refers to the part of the structure that does the latter, and it's important for charge rate, but part of the idea here is that the 'charged' liquid can be continuously circulated out of the actual 'electrochemical' structure, at which point it has become a 'carrier fuel' as much as, say, syndiesel or liquid products of hydrogenation, and theoretically stored and pumped much as liquid fuels are.
(26:39) what really amazes me about this technology is the fade rate! for a battery to operate for 10 years-charging and discharging once a day-while still maintaining 99% of its original energy capacity is unheard of (at least by me). in fact, i'm actually surprised that i _hadn't_ heard of it before. that said, i really hope this idea is successful (not because i fear Climate Change-of which i think mankind's role has been _grossly_ exaggerated-but because of all the great new technologies and scientific advancements that are likely to follow).
I was wondering if it is suitable for off grid solar power? I guess it would have to be used with hybro or wind turbines also. To keep it from cooling. If there is no sun for a while. And is there a minimum operating current? I'd like to have about 30 large cells , my off grid lithium ion bank is 29.4v, so I guess 28-29 cells @1v each? And at what cost?
So why can't this be a battery in every basement, hooked to mini solar/wind on every rooftop?
Because molten alkali metals getting accidentally exposed to oxygen would be a front row seat to hell.
@@--Valek-- how about no? arent they just froze if exposed to the air? even professor gave example of battery being shot with a bullet...
he said it could, but more efficient is if whole neighborhood is hooked to one battery bank...
Ever heard of economy of scale?? Look it up... It'll explain why a bunch of mini things are not nearly as economical as fewer huge ones
While economy of scale is a Thing, it's also an It Depends. Economy of scale demands that we only use rail transport. Individual needs demand that we have the automobile. (First example that came into my head.)
Ambri battery when it will be in the market ?
At the current rate of progress, NEVER. Too many problems exist.
Could you mix water with the salt ? And use metals that melt at low temperature as long as its melting point is under the boiling point of water if not water a liquid will work
What is the current status of the project? Have they killed it already? And if not, will the batteries be available in all sizes for anyone to buy?
First class interesting lecture.Brilliant.
Wow, this makes a lot of sense. Clearly he has a challenge to establish a market for grid-tied batteries. But I don't see any flaws in his science nor in his business approach. When I listed to Elon Musk, I see flaw after flaw in his spiel. I am a harsh critic because I have a degree in science and a degree in business and many years experience. When listening to Professor Sadoway, the science makes sense. And the business plan makes sense. I am not sure how quickly he can create the market for grid-tied batteries, but I am willing to bet that this will succeed.
@IThinkWithMy Dick Hope big brother don't smoke his ass first. Quite a few inventors of disruptive technologies have either mysteriously disappeared or died under questionable circumstances. The world NEEDS this so i hope he succeeds.
Multiple electric companies are pushing to get tax credits for investing in energy storage. If the push goes through then he will have a market to sell to.
J Westney: you're a sad fool! Elon has already saved you and everbody else on this planet a fortune by making commerce virtually instantaneous, replacing a system that often required weeks for even the simplest transaction to finish before someone would ship you the widget you ordered (PayPal). That was his first multi-billion-dollar enterprise. Then reduced the cost of space launches by tens of millions per launch by finding a way of reusing his boosters, a system that the entire industry and even astronauts disparaged him for. "Landing boosters on barges at sea?!? Is he on ACID???" His second multi-billion-dollar enterprise that is saving EVERYONE big bucks by reducing such things as cell phone bills, and reducing the cost of gov't.
Then he succeeded in creating EVs that within just a few short years were getting the highest ratings ever, from Consumer Reports and the NHTSA and others... cars the entire industry proclaimed were a laughingstock--- until, of course, he was receiving hundreds of thousands of orders, WITH HUGE DEPOSITS, WITHIN A SINGLE DAY... that is something no other product in history has ever done, before or since.
He started Solar City, a fourth multi-billion-dollar company (which was since bought out by Tesla).
He has started several other massive businesses since then, all of which are innovative and groundbreaking.
You haven't mentioned any of your accomplishments... you are not mentioned in Who's Who... in fact, I can find no mention of you. So, tell us all about what breath-taking, daring entrepreneurial accomplishments you have made, dear sir? Billion-dollar companies? Ooooh, I thought not.
this makes a lot of sense to you ? whereas you see flaw after flaw in Elon's spiel? Tesla has been selling EV's, powerwalls, a battery factory of some sort all in the past several years whereas I've been waiting for Ambri to deliver something, anything for years. Not wanting to be demoralizing but it's a double standard when you put Sodoway on a pedestal and dump Musk in the trash. Two key vital stats that you should zero in on regarding Ambri's amazing batteries. 1. His conversion or efficiency is about 70%. I'm not clear whether that's one way or round trip. And because this is his basic energy conversion, his efficiency is as bad as a car engine. How do you ever overcome this deficiency? 2. His device needs to operate at about 400 degrees Celsius. Progress from the initial 1,300 degrees but nevertheless imagine having a 400 C furnace in your garage 24/7. Overcoming these two vital areas if your device has any moving parts means you'll have to be dealing with leakage. Over time, constant changes in pressure, temperature, chemical changes, you are going to have to address leaking. And indeed his coming out party more than 2 years ago was postponed due to leakage in his design flaw. I came to this site because it was the follow up site from the new CBC interview about his "new" device but disallowed posting comments. That interview is the one that had more holes in it than the spiels of Elon. Not any mention of whether and how he's been able to solve his problems.
Hey @@BerriBerriJam The approach that Sadoway described in the video makes sense to me. Grid-tied, utility-scale energy storage makes sense to me. Using chemical elements that are abundant and cheap makes sense to me. Developing batteries that have a useful life of decades makes sense to me. This is all explained in the video. I do not picture Sadoway's battery in a car, nor in you garage, nor in your cell phone, nor in anything with moving parts. I did not imply that, and if you inferred it, then you inferred incorrectly. HERE IS WHAT I DO PICTURE.
I picture a beautiful, sunny island. Let's take Puerto Rico for example, generating electricity from sun, wind, and tide. And I picture each village having a storage battery big-as-a-shipping-container near the edge of town. I picture those batteries getting charged when the sun shines and when then wind blows. I picture a family as the sun goes-down, turning on their lights, cooking tropical dinner (yum), and streaming videos. They have energy when they need it: after dark.
I picture this instead of the "old" model where oil is imported into San Juan, then burned in a turbine to make electricity that is distributed by high-voltage wires criss-crossing the island.
I still picture some fossil fuel being used -- because buying enough batteries and solar to do the whole job would be affordable only for the richest people, and that is not acceptable.
In tropical climates, utility-scale, grid-tied batteries can help renewables become the main-stay. That is what I picture.
No offense to Elon Musk. Let him fill the garages of rich people with roadsters and lithium batteries. We will take renewables any way we can get them.
Why can't the cells be round? We do work for a customer we run sheets of 310 stainless steel and RA330 on our punch/laser. The customer has a robot roller that rools them up and welds them. It is cheaper to roll the sheet into a cylinder than it is to form it on a brake or draw it through a die.
Because, like COSTCO, you can get more rectangular "cells" in a space than round ones.
You're drawings look like a tank sized unit, but your product is 10x10 cm. Would municipal systems be on the scale of meters or are there problems with making large liquid metal batteries?
Great discovery... but why its not in use yet.?
Interesting. How is the battery initialized? Once manufactured the working elements have to be melted for it to function. Does it use a built in heating element or a more clever method of some sort. I take it that it's the charge and discharge heating that keeps the internal parts molten but even with the best insulation it wouldn't take long to solidify. Apparently it's best application would be something like solar which would need a back up power source each night. Or did I miss the point somewhere? Out of the box thinking like this is sorely needed. Hope you and the company are successful!
Part of the reason it's designed to be stationary is the high temperature -- see the history of sodium/sulfur batteries for a parallel. (PS: modern nanoinsulation either with multiple shields or aerogel has made sodium/sulfur an attractive chemistry for many portable applications again) An assumption for 'grid' power is that you use the storage to even out the cyclical supply from many kinds of renewable, so you don't 'cycle' the battery temperature once it is brought to operation. Means to heat a cold battery up to operating temperature might be considered as transient as full blackstart at conventional primary generation plants
Because it relies on heat retention to keep it liquid is it safe to say this isn't very viable for long term energy storage, but amazing for grid balancing and daily balancing for renewables?
That’s was my take.
There’s a lot of solar being added ad hoc. ie, without benefiting master planning, or any planning. So rapid absorption and return is key.
Almost like a capacitor. And he pointed out that a design goal is diurnal, not like continually storing power for winter.
So I think that there may be an environmental condition of warmer climes, or underground.
Either way, this a 3 yr old presentation. So it’s something to catch up on.
as usual thorium energy id the elephant in the room that no one ever mentions WHY?
also ignored the fact that there's platinum and palladium in every modern car on the road today...inside the cat. converter.
it has been obvious for some time thorium reactors are the ONLY real, cost effective, alternative today to wean ourselves from the fossil energy teat.
The note regarding surface tension, together with the sketches, seem to imply much larger cells - did I miss the reason why they are small?
So where is the battery?
This guy has been giving these marketing pitches for 6 years.
Where is the prototype?
It's here:
ruclips.net/video/ImqmMOkANgg/видео.html
@@barrygroeneveld6901 ...
Seen that video as well.
Big container box. No test results. No preliminary reports. No journal articles published. No specs. No output estimations.
Nothing. Nil. Nada. Zilch.
Just a big white box (with a bunny rabbit inside)
And 6 years of RUclips videos by the marketing manager
@@ZubairKhan-vs8fe
www.wbur.org/bostonomix/2017/03/27/ambri-molten-battery
@@ZubairKhan-vs8fe
Obviously there's no pilot test yet, only lab scale.
breakingenergy.com/2017/04/07/ambris-battery-storage-technology-is-heating-up/
@@barrygroeneveld6901
Ok. Stories about stories.
That article is dated 2017. Its now 2019.
I wish this project very good luck. I'd like to buy this product if it comes into the market.
Ok. So, where is it? Having said that. . . Very interesting talk, on many levels
Going off-grid doesn't have to be expensive or complicated. It does require rethinking the way we use energy, particularly optimization of the way we use AC and DC. Off-the-shelf appliances are rarely energy efficient in terms of battery storage. DC appliances with BLDC motors are still a niche market, although with a little imagination, some skills and a desire any appliance can be reengineered to match generation capacity and form, including three phase.
Conservation and efficiency are sadly lacking in most consumer electrical products, including electric cars. There's simply not enough grid capacity for a North American electrical fleet.
The notion of a global grid is more science fiction at this point.
A simple solution is to decentralize generation and rationalize consumption, in terms of capacity. There are loads of business opportunities out there.
Ken: you say EVs are not very efficient, and North American grid cannot handle the load.
You are totally wrong on the first point... the typical EV is ~ 4 to 8 X more efficient than an ICE car; as for the grid capacity, you are missing the point, and are obviously not following what is going on.
EVs actually ENHANCE use of the grid in a variety of ways. EVs are rarely charged during the daytime when load is at its maximum. They are charged at home, at night, when load is so low that EVs are being charged with energy that would otherwise go to waste.
When energy use drops significantly at night, it is a serious problem for generating plants, especially coal generators. Such generators cannot start and stop at a moment's notice; battery backups, like the massive one Tesla just installed in South Australia, happen to be ideal for that exact function... they have kicked in within a few hundreds of milliseconds during a power failure, such that residents there were never even aware that it happened. In the months and years previous to that, massively disruptive power outages were common, and quite costly.
When a power grid is robust, it does not crash as was typical in South Australia. But it is nonetheless a very problematical balancing act; when usage drops too low, generators cannot adjust quickly, and they cannot simply drop to any level desirable. If usage drops too low, the grid must literally dump excess energy into the ground--- gigantic terminals driven into the Earth take the excess energy, heating up the ground below with no end other than keeping the grid from crashing.
I have two meters on the side of my house. One records the energy usage of my house; the other is a complex smart meter that measures not only how much energy my EV takes when charging, but what TIME it is being charged--- between 11pm and 7 am, my electricity only costs me 25% of what it would cost if I charge during the day. There is a third tier... between 7pm and 11pm, when rates are partly reduced.
There are other sophisticated rate structures used by other utility companies in other counties and states.
Another way EVs help out is called V2G, which stands for Vehicle to Grid. It is a system used in some areas and some foreign countries, in which the utility companies rely on EVs to back-feed some of their energy to the grid in the event it comes close to a blackout. It does not happen often, but on hot days or other times of excessive grid load, the utility sends a signal to the EVs that are online, asking for some juice. If the EV owner has his EV set to backload-- it has to be done with the EV owner's explicit permission--- the EV pushes energy back out to lighten the grid load, preventing a blackout. The more EVs connected to the grid, the more practical it is, and the EV owners are well-paid for the use of their energy.
There is much more to it--- actually quite complicated, but relatively transparent to the EV owner--- but utility companies are quite relieved to have EVs on their grid, as it helps keep them from having to build very expensive new power plants, and the headache of finding places to install them in cities where there is no affordable real estate that is properly zoned and agreeable to nearby residents.
No, EVs are NOT the problem you assume them to be, but a solution to many of their problems.
@@billdale1 try calculating the power demand of a completely Electric North American fleet based on a Tesla model three and the average miles/day travelled in the US. When you've done that convert gasoline energy capacity to M-joules to create a peak demand, then compare with the present energy peak generation capacity of the entire US grid.
Its all on Wikipedia.
My rough estimate was 14x the present peak load capacity.
Either Electric vehicles need to get way more efficient, or there will need to be more generating capacity to offset fossil fuel energy input.
billdale1
Yep, very true. It’s amazing how much happened in the last few years.
Every year we add millions of EV. Huge potential for SW controlled battery storage.
@@kokopelli314 you, sir, are busted... the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing, doing your damnedest to spread disinformation and "fake news" about EVs, for the obvious purpose of keeping Americans addicted to oil, and to fatten the wallets of the oil oligarchs.
Anyone who claims to be as well-informed as to direct readers to Wiki data to "prove" that EVs are a dead end, could not possibly have spent so much time reading up on electric vehicle tech without running into the term "V2G", which completely deflates any such misinformation you try to spread.
"V2G", or "Vehicle to Grid", is a means for electric vehicles to be part of the solution of energy supply rather than part of the problem.
It goes much further than just V2G--- there are thousands of people just here in the L.A. area that have been driving electric for long enough to show that EVs are sustainable and practical, and will one day soon replace the UNsustainable gasoline whose price can do nothing but continue to rise until it will eventually be too expensive for anyone to drive.
I have been driving electric for more than.a decade and will never go back to fossil fuels--- driving without all that vibration, noise, oil changes, tune-ups, smog tests, noxious fumes while standing next to fuel pumps, and so much more. My money will no longer go to support people who are already drunk on money.
Exchange current density of i0=600 A/cm^2 is indeed freaking high. Yet whatever happens it more or less always boils down to the ohmic drop having an important influence if not being the most important contributor to losses. Is there any information on that?
Also, what I wonder is if you could make a liquid metal redox flow battery.
And ... Approach of "dirt to make it dirt cheap" is something that a lot of influential people and industry will find to be a convincing strategy ... well done!!!
I love that quick discussion on flow Batteries at the very end. I believe in flow batteries but they certainly appear to be passing through the valley of death.
Ich dont think so. I mean Vanadium is an example of non abundant element and is expensive.
In this case I could envision something like pumping the Mg and the Sb and solidify/freeze dry them (respective the MgSb alloy into solid) for storage. And later you can remelt them when needed
Anyway flow batteries are a technology as batteries with certain pros and cons. You could also be tempted ot say that batteries are not going to make it because capacities are too small or materials too expensive. Also, cell voltage versus iR drop in the electrolyte I think is important for the overall efficiency.
Molten salt doesnt have a high reisistance, plus as he said reaction velocities are much increased at higher temperatures and I really do think that a molten metal flow battery could eventually be one of many possible solutions
How hard is it to restart completely frozen batteries? How much energy does it take? Are they built for that? Where are the heating electrodes for cold start? ...
Missing chart for comparison flowbatteries energy density ecologic impact ...
There was that flow battery with a drinkable liquid (water and iron...) those units ship in shipping containers?
Battery Fueled by Iron and Water Could Transform the Power Grid (ESS Inc. Wilsonville OR):
ruclips.net/video/HmtI8Wat7rY/видео.html
02:41 50kW/400kWh one shipping container probably 40feet
Used containers ^^:
www.mrbox.co.uk/shipping-containers/
you just charge them and they get hot.
You don't have to 'restart' a frozen battery, you just have to thaw it to where the charge carriers in the electrolyte can actually move (this being at a lower temperature than the nominal phase change of water around 32 degrees F)
Part of the 'historical' problem with frozen batteries is that water expands when it freezes, and this can damage the internal structure. Another part of the problem is that 'charging' a frozen battery doesn't automatically "melt the freezing" first and then proceed to fill up the capacity. One of the 'paradigm changes' with these circulated-electrolyte batteries (where so much of the "charge" is in the distributed reservoir and not in the 'battery' section that actually moves electrons in circuits) is that you can relatively easily drain them (into an insulated and/or heated 'tank') if they are not being used, or subject to freezing, and then refilled at need, so the issues with trying to charge ice don't ever practically arise...
So we changed ALL Vehicles to legally need a Catalytic Converter(CC) that contains Platinum and what’s worse the CC’s only work once the engine has got to optimum temperature. Considering 80% of car journeys are under 3 miles means for nearly all journeys the CC is not only not working, but causes the vehicles to burn more fuel!. But besides that I’ve seen a couple vids on yt of people who have made Platinum free Fuel Cells.
What do they have for bateries to store solar for home use?
A couple tons of molten lithium for a minimum comercial scale cell. What could go wrong?
I sure am glad that I am a super genius so that I can understand all of this.
This isn't too complicated. It certainly doesn't take a genius to understand.
Now, Dr Sadoway, the geezer talking on the stage, who was running the project, understands all this on a fundamental level and was instrumental in it's development. I dare say could be called a genius. Though I doubt very much he would consider himself to be so.
Awesome discovery! Not sure if these batteries would work in vehicles because of the high temperatures and the "sloshing" around causing other issues. Looks like a winner otherwise.
Even with anything resembling “sloshing” keep in mind the density of what it’d be, and the lack of space to do so.
It’d be easier to work with larger vehicles than smaller ones, due to the heat issues.
Even then, if you really got worried at all about sloshing (and the specific gravity of the components combined with their natural chemical affinities seem to be self-regulating) it seems it’d be easy enough to deal with via a suspension system.
Parking lots use to be sized for Christmas shopping. That is why they are so massive. I don't understand this technology but there has to be other ways. Considering this is 3 years old I guess it is operational now but I'm still using a Trojan T105.
I simply don't get how anyone in their right minds could possibly give this talk a thumbs down. Probably disgruntled competitors.
You probably assume he's telling the truth and he's very clever. But how do you know? What I know is that he's very wrong about LI-ION batteries so I'm wondering how much he really knows. He's good at selling himself and his ideas, but that doesn't say anything. I for one am very sceptical of the way he talks about himself mostly. I bet there are people who know more about it all than we do.
So can i get the stuff to make one of these at Home Depot or Nah?
So... wait... If these things run hot, could you run a sterling engine generator off the excess heat and use that to help charge the batteries? I mean surely there's a way to use some of that heat in an "energy reclamation" capacity as well.
Well, yeah, and you could make up an array of cheap TACs and make a little more 'free power' off the Stirling exhaust. How much capital and maintenance expense can you justify for the marginal electrical generation? That's the only real reason most technically-workable bottoming approaches don't get used.
@@wizlish as all a Stirling engine requires is a temperature gradient to operate (that was a Beta vs VCR thing with the steam engine back in the day) It's not exhaust.
Stirling engines ran whole machine shops, a legit, functional, significant generator could be run off the 200 or so degrees these batteries reach while charging, with which you could charge another, and another, etc.
@@ryanjamesloyd6733 There is more to 'bottoming' than just the heat differential. And of course an expander of any kind has an 'exhaust' -- here it's in the steam-engine sense, the flow of 'spent' air that has finished doing work on the pistons or other power-generating structure. The heat content in this could be used in at least one further optimized Stirling, but it would be so large and run so slowly as to be essentially worthless in justifying its (large) fabrication cost. Therefore using thermoacoustic devices to recover any further waste heat would be better -- assuming you could make and connect them cheaply enough to justify the exercise.
There is no question that one of these batteries at 'neighborhood' scale would produce sufficient heat -- and the heat does need to be removed from the cell structure -- to justify making and using a bottoming cycle of some kind. It is certainly worthwhile to consider a hot-air engine instead of, say, an ORC bottoming arrangement to do this, provided the effective heat flux is kept high enough to fulfil the 'primary purpose' of battery cooling at any point in charge/discharge. I would further note that, at the voltages these batteries will run, any generator driven by a Stirling could be directly used to produce charging current for the battery, and this might usually be a nontrivial contribution to baseline grid power, with relatively unattended operation and long service life.
In fact. you can calculate more or less exactly what the heat flux from a given LMB would be, figure out how to circulate that to the Stirling displacer, and figure out the scale of engine and developed shp at best speed that corresponds to this. (Personally I'd use multiple engines sized around the expected charge and discharge characteristics of the particular LMB, as I expect the developed heat will differ with time of day as the battery system is commanded to charge and discharge, so 'one size may not fit all') From that you can easily determine the percentage of engine output that translates into electrical generation and then transversion to 'battery electricity' (DC at extremely low voltage). That will give you a number that will confirm or deny the capital practicability of installing it as a commercial bottoming system.
This and ITER fusion will change the world. Shalom
There are multiple references to Ah - but without specification of the voltage. The voltage is not always the same. So there is something really important missing, right?
No, there isn't. Much electrochemistry is only concerned with the charge that is moved, which is directly measurable in amps (i.e. cumulative coulomb transfer) and not the rate. Hence you commonly see battery ratings in amp/hr and not "watt-hour". At least part of this is that the output voltage observed in many practical battery chemistries is dependent on the state of 'charge' and may vary substantially depending on the rate or state of discharge. Be careful when comparing primary electrochemical battery design to reversible storage batteries, too.
I understand the superior potential of his batteries for grid purposes, but I would like to know if this kind of battery is compatible with eletric cars.
As nobody made this question, i'd apreciate if someone could answer.
Think about it geometrically: the volume grows by the law of cubes, but surface by the law of squares.
There is heat to maintain in these batteries for them to keep functioning and putting out power, whether they’re actively being used or not. Perhaps a different type of battery can be used to do the initial heating. But, what is unclear to me is how much of the potential output requires heat as input.
If used in electric cars, oddly, it’d make the most sense in always-rolling vehicles that keep getting charged many times per day due to being used heavily. For your typical family car, I believe it’d have too much heat loss to make a lot of sense, which would also require a lot of power for recharging them. However, on the bright side, no battery fade in the lifespan of the electric car driver, especially of a family car!
And, as explained in the video, it’d be even safer in an accident or puncture: no thermal runaway, it’d just seal itself as it cooled. The biggest risk in my assessment would be how much insulation got damaged, and the latent heat setting off flammable things such as dried grass and leaves.
Current electric car battery round trip efficiencies are around 95% according to a web search, and thermal management is required for them as well, but to keep them from degrading, so they also discharge over time when not actively being used. As long as the charging costs are lower than gasoline, it’s still a win for the charge/refuel equation. What I don’t have numbers on are the weights of the various liquid metal battery chemistries for their energy storage: I suspect they're notably heavier, so that may not work in their favor for cars and efficiency,
Can you put this thing on a ship, as in a small cargo ship, or explorer ship?
what about *Thorium* ? its abundant, local in the US, considered a by-product in US rare earth mining and the US has estimates of over 1000 year supply. the technology was tested, proven safe and reliable back in the 50s through to the 70s and killed by Nixon because he wanted bombs built in California.
Eric Martin Thorium is perfect however you can’t get weapons grade plutonium out of it. That might be the answer.
@@DiHandley Thorium reaction "burns" waste from our current nuclear reactors and is why you cant make bomb material from the by-products. the reaction is much more efficient and walk-away safe, meaning no melt-downs.
a power plant can be the size of a small warehouse and can be modular, no need for long transmission lines, built near to where the power is needed and expanded as demand grows. i think its a perfect "stop-gap" measure and give humanity time to develop long term energy solutions. solar, wind and battery technology is not ready yet and may not be for a while.
@@ericmartin2470 "Thorium reaction "burns" waste from our current nuclear reactors"
Thorium fuel cycle is Th 232 + neutron -> Th 233 -> Pa 233 -> U 233
Our waste is mostly U 238 and Pu 239 and is nothing like thorium breeding cycle.
It has nothing in common.
"you cant make bomb material"
U 233 is weapons material. USA and India tested bombs made out of this material and decided that Pu 239 is better material but that doesnt mean you cant make bombs out of thorium reactors. The negative is that thorium reactors would shut down if you take out U 233
@@user-py9cy1sy9u A nuclear reactor consumes certain specific fissile isotopes to produce energy. The three most practical types of nuclear reactor fuel are:Uranium-235, purified (i.e. "enriched") by reducing the amount of uranium-238 in natural mined uranium. Most nuclear power has been generated using low-enriched uranium (LEU), whereas high-enriched uranium (HEU) is necessary for weapons.Plutonium-239, transmuted from uranium-238 obtained from natural mined uranium.Uranium-233, transmuted from thorium-232, derived from natural mined thorium.
It is difficult to make a practical nuclear bomb from a thorium reactor's byproducts. According to Alvin Radkowsky, designer of the world's first full-scale atomic electric power plant, "a thorium reactor's plutonium production rate would be less than 2 percent of that of a standard reactor, and the plutonium's isotopic content would make it unsuitable for a nuclear detonation." Several uranium-233 bombs have been tested, but the presence of uranium-232 tended to "poison" the uranium-233 in two ways: intense radiation from the uranium-232 made the material difficult to handle, and the uranium-232 led to possible pre-detonation. Separating the uranium-232 from the uranium-233 proved very difficult, although newer laser techniques could facilitate that process
I'm curious if he would be capable of building different sized batteries like this for individual homes? He'd own the market. Farms with solar panels and one big battery like this, or manufacturing shops in the country potentially with lots of solar panels running off one of these would cut power costs potentially and make north America more competitive.
is this going to be another 'cold fusion technology? We have been 15 years away from practical cold fusion for 60 years.
There is plenty of non-refrigeration long distance food distribution. Salting, drying, and canning.
Jeez Stanford, wouldn't you do something about the sound quality?
Seems to have lots of potential, good luck to them.
I do however wish the comparison of this battery to synthetic fuel generation as an energy storage mechanism were brought up, as it may be one of the better competitive technologies for bulk energy storage.
I would argue that instead of aiming to supplement peak demand with stored energy you could instead tap off-peak surplus capacity with industrial process and synthetic fuel creation capacity which could supply the market with carbon neutral fuels. (this of course would require much increased renewable and nuclear power to ensure clean production.) Some battery-type load leveling may still be required but the bulk of it could probably be handled by industrial demand.
"comparison of this battery to synthetic fuel generation as an energy storage mechanism... " HUH ????? that makes little to NO SENSE AT ALL !
Bob Saturday he is talking about using surplus electricity to create fuels that are easilly stored.
Creating hydrogen for example with that electricity.
The problem with that is that it is a very inefficient way to do it.
It could be attractive in certain situations but is not usefull as the main way of storing acces energy.
duhhhh-uhhhh...no kiddin !?? yes von limbo , I think thats a given , Don alludes to economy of scale as a factor
Bob Saturday you can't us economy of scale on ineffecient chemistry.
thats the point the liguid metal battery is 75% efficient after accounting for thermal losses , nearly the same as pumped hydro , so what ARE ya blithering about ?
Could you convert New Zealand's Tiwai Point Aluminium smelter about to be decommissioned by NZAS into cheap battery storage? Or better into a Carbon free Steel smelter using Taranaki iron sands?
FYI
1. It takes decades to develop something from the ground up, from lab to manufacturing. Give it time.
2. This kind of batteries are most likely for grid scale. So I think it would be Powerwall < Flow batteries < Liquid Metal
3. It's mainly competing with pump hydro so stop comparing to other types of batteries.
4. When we can produce too much renewable energy and don't have enough storage this tech will be the only solution and that's a long way to go.
5. Oil companies can turn into energy companies by using this tech because these days they invest a lot in offshore wind turbines so it's unlikely for them to buy this technology out and throw it away just to stay in digging oil.
"Takes decades to develop"... yadda yadda... NOOOOOOO. The lithium ion battery was invented in 1980... they started powering smaller stuff--- cameras, Walkmans, radios, soon afterward, and have been energizing our cars now for nearly twenty years, and have been going through countless iterations of improvements the entire time, so that the most state-of-the art lithium batteries can power an EV well in excess of 300 miles--- my 2017 Chevy Bolt was good for 366 miles max when I got it 27,000 miles ago, well in excess of its warranted range of 238 miles, and is still well in excess of that.
The newest Tesla Roadster, which is not yet released, has advanced chemistry battery packs, has a range in excess of 620 miles at highway speeds, has a 0-60 mph of 1.9 seconds--- there is no ICE car on the market that can come close--- and it has a top speed of 260+ miles per hour--- WITHOUT A TRANSMISSION, not even a reverse gear. No EVs require a reverse gear, because unlike ICEs, electric motors can turn backwards. No transmission means eliminating as much as 140 lbs. of weight, and a huge source of mechanical and maintenance costs, and reliability problems.
I digress.
No, progress with EVs, unlike ICE cars, does not require decades to show off enormous levels of improvement; in less than two decades now, EVs, batteries, ultracapacitors and EV electronics have already made them far more desirable, practical and reliable than ICE cars, and EVs are very close to being cheaper on the sticker price as well.
@@billdale1 Wrong. Lithium metal based battery was proposed in 70's. John Goodenough further developed to commercial in the 80's. It takes few years in the lab to create something in "research" but takes decades to be "proven technology" and "commercial viable".
And I don't get your other paragraphs. Those are just irrelevant.