Well spoken, Ocean. You have, in this past year especially, put on a clinic of what it's like to be a non-toxic and healthy leading voice in any community. It's always refreshing to drink the water or the mead, here. Hail to you, good sir.
I guess that means that you're vaxxed like him? Nothing like being in ideological lockstep with the Masonic-science! I just wasn't expecting to hear "anti-vaxx pagans" this morning! Wow... the heart disease/cancer/clot shot. At least us "anti-vaxx pagans" will still be around to keep things going.
Not disagreeing. But what is meant by non-toxic and healthy? Were the pagan Danes what anyone would call non-toxic and healthy in the same sense? We say we want a religion that is kind, friendly, open to everyone. A religion that moves with the times. We say we want this because we are like this already and we fear change. We say we want a religion like this, but what we mean is that we can do without it. We can go on being whatever we like, we needn’t drag religions down or up with us. What we want is a religion that moves the world. Not another religion that moves along with it. Cast Runes and let your ancestors vote. Why shouldn’t their say count as much as ours?
As someone veering towards eclecticism, this was wonderful to hear. Also might I add that you, Aliakai, Beofeld, and Wolf pulled me away from WoO and I thank you for it. I would have totally followed him down that culty rabbit hole so thank you
Hello, I'm fairly new in the pagan community, what does WoO mean? I see it around a fair amount and google is failing me. Yours is capitalized differently than I usually see though so it might be something else.
Even as a Norse pagan I actually often go to the Vedic texts and traditions to understand myself and my worldview. Considering that they're at least 6000 years old and of Indo-European descent I l've filled in several of the blank spots where the Germanic sources fall short.
@@jasontscott-west6037 ew. Hinduism and Germanic beliefs was share a common origin point but there’s such a vast difference of place and time it’s like comparing whales and hippos as nearly identical because of their shared ancestry.
@@heathenpride7931 no, it's like knowing that they share anatomical things and use this knowledge in your favor when something is missing on the hippo.
@@heathenpride7931 look into old Vedic and upnishadic texts and you will see your folly. They preserve the ways of the old. While Germanic peoples abandoned their gods for yhvh, India had it's own shares of Yhvhs, only difference was that Indian monotheists could say that they their religion was "indigenous" and not imported Judaism.
Catholic/monotheistic follower here (hopefully that's not patronizing). I get equally frustrated with the 'Trads vs Rads' battle happening in the western church. Really enjoy your method of approaching spirituality - in this video and beyond.
Correct christian vision of god is as a Monarchia. Monotheism is a protestant invention first used by Henry More. A more fitting term would be monolatrism.
I've always been a fan of the idea of "The best idea is the idea that works best for you." This is the primary reason I embrace the idea of Electicism. But y'know, I see no value is knocking reconstructionists for doing recon; this is what works best for them.
I'd hesitated to call myself 'Reconstructionist' before. While I still don't know I would call myself that- I think you've opened up my notions of what it is. Thanks for this topic, Ocean!
There's a better identification. A contemporary heathen. A person learns and applies the lessons of the stories to their own life, and honor the Gods who they identify with the most based on who they are.
Do you think braggi ever sits in the shower reinacting his argument with loki in aegirs hall, thinking of some fire roast he should of used instead of just trying to appeas him.
Beautifully articulated Ocean, you manage to put out information on both without coming off as antagonistic to either and perfectly outline some of my own thoughts on the issue
Chaire Ocean! You are an amazing influence to not only the Norse Polytheist community, but to all of the Pagan communities and beyond. You are such an olive branch to the atheists and create respect from the dogmatic Abrahamic faiths. Hail to you and thank you for the great work you do!!
Isn't viewing things through a narrow lens and shaming others what turned us ALL away from Christianity? My practice is Eclectic mainly because I'm totally new at this and there are few other pagans to reach out to in my area. That being said, there are a few Reconstructionists that I reach out to in order to learn and better my own practice. So I think regardless of which position you identify with, there is a part of the other in there. But what do I know? I'm a total noob.
Why use the term "Pagan" though? Why pretend any of this postmodern anti-fascist stuff has anything to do with the ancient religions of pre-Christian Europe, of all times and places? There are so many religions that are still alive, or you could just say you are a New Ager, or just simply say "I'm spiritual, I don't like labels." Why appropriate ancient Pagan motifs that have nothing to do with your modern way of life and worldview?
I've been resisting the call to Norse paganism because of the association to white supremacists. You've shown me the other side Ocean and for that I am extremely grateful!
As a new Heathen I had someone just the other day ask me about my Mjolnir pendant, so I told them about my new faith. First thing they asked, “Isn’t that just neo naziism?”... sometimes people are just ignorant. Doesn’t mean they are stupid, it means you have an opportunity to teach. And by teaching, you find the facts of why you believe yourself.
I end up being eclectic, I have always had an interest in reconstruction but i didn’t know where to start. However I remember reading the story of Odin at the well of wisdom. He tore his own eye out to gain wisdom that thought me that there was value in wisdom. He was also a traveler so though redundant to say, he has been to many places and spoken to many people. I do my best to do the same through reading books from various cultures. I always remember my roots and do my best to stay sceptic of what I read. This was a well worded video and I thank you for the reminder to reflect on my journey and what it has thought me so far.
As an Eclectic Pagan, I really appreciate the educated and thoughtful way that you communicated this information and it has given me a new-found respect for both my path and the path of Reconstructionism. Thank you for taking the time to make this and putting so much thought into it!
I mean it's a bit of a prerequisite to being a pagan to be a nerd... love how this video also talks about the complexity of both of these movements within paganism. Keep it up these are so good and I will continue to recommend these to friends!!!
neeeerrrrddd But yeah, they're both very complex, and there's a reason why they're both so heavily populated. I wanted to make sure I explored that fairly.
Someone who has an eclectic approach can claim to be a reconstructionist, since eclecticism existed in the ancient world--and still exists in some of the religious practices of East Asia and India.
I dunno...I can totally see what your saying. It's true that some did adopt other peoples deities, but reconstructionists are called to specific pantheons and their religious practices.
@@bezoticallyyours83 But isn't that a modern--i.e. fundamentalist--approach? Pre-Christian peoples, in many cases, especially among the educated classes, saw the gods of other tribes as local names for their own gods, welcomed in new practices, or took a "when in Rome...." approach.
@@gregcampwriter Not at all. A fundamentalist approach is being nasty and rigid and refusing to accept any other way then yours. These people are simply called and they chose to answer, because that's what is right for their personal path. Doesn't mean they can't be flexible. Of course you're better off asking them. They can educate you better on what they believe.
@@gregcampwriter You were the one who added modern fundamentalist terms, when I said nothing of the sort. Fundamentalism is associated negatively with zealots, particularly in the modern day. Once upon a time it probably did have a different meaning. To reconstruct means to rebuild or restore something right? For example some people are called to specific pantheons and religious practices and wish to restore that religion in the modern day. Maybe its because they've always been fascinated by the history and mythology that started them on that path and introduced them to their Gods? Maybe its because it was always part of their own rich cultural heritage and they want to right the wrongs of historical destruction and conversion? Whatever their reaons may be, they willingly chose to answer it. It's really not that difficult to understand, and it is not meant to be negative or restrictive. I'm just an eclectic, so as I said, it's best for you to talk to actual reconstructionists because they can give you better insight and answers.
Earned my subscription. You were objective. And as someone who falls on eclectic side, it feels good to see some of the problems i have come across in my own practice laid out with possible solutions. Thank you sir.
It was always the smell of campfire.. on a summer or winter night the feeling never changed.. I felt a calming feeling even alone I was at peace. I was drawn to the outdoors almost to much so, I spend a lot of time there and there’s a feeling of home.. my past aside to feel at home broke me open and I knew I had the wanderer following me till I was ready to have the talk and accept my roots. The tree of life has always sheltered us from the harshest storms! Hail to the gods!
Ok, so discovered your channel yesterday, and I have to say, I was pretty nervous heading in, as I have heard tell of the horrors of the AFA and others within this particular pagan community, which always struck me as incredibly sad that such a stain exists within the Neopagan community. However, I have been pleasantly surprised at the guts you have to simply state what you know to be wrong, and what you find personally enligtening and/or interesting, and to state it very eloquently and with tongue-in-cheek humour I might add! All that out of the way, I wanted to draw your attention to eclecticism within ancient paganism itself; for example, the vast spread of the cults of Isis and Hecate, as well as the Interpretatio Romania of both Germanic and Brythonic gods and traditions, and vice versa, and in particular the fact that Alexander the Great declared himself the son of Amun and became Pharaoh of Egypt, which led to religious and stylistic synchrotisms such as statues of the god Zeus-Amun (look it up, you'll never unnsee Zeus with horns!) and other Greek and Egyptian artistic blends. I find all this incredibly fascinating, so wanted to share it, as an eclectic pagan myself
There are no Pagans in the 21st century. You would be sickened and horrified by their typical beliefs and practices, just as they would be horrified by yours.
I walk a fine, weird, hazy line in the middle between eclectic and reconstructionist -- values of both paths make me a wiser person, I think, personally. and your videos enrich my life and practice greatly. incredibly well spoken, Ocean. appreciate the channel so much.
Reconstructionism can summed to be thus, "You build an alter to read thousands of books, you don't read thousands of books to build an alter" (-Ocean).
This is such a mature, nuanced take on this subject which I really respect. I’m currently reading Ronald Hutton’s Pagan Britain so the issue of the difficulties and complexities of reconstructing belief systems from archaeology as well as the issue that historians ascribe ideas, concepts and events to the past based on their own culture’s beliefs are at the forefront of my mind.
How did i miss this when it originally came out? Once again Ocean, you have distilled a multifaceted debate into words of wisdom. I was a recon for over a decade and eventually went the road of the eclectic. But your video has me rethinking a few things right now. That’s maybe the best complement I can pay you. Well done.
Very well balanced and respectful without being pandering or overly simplistic in any way. I've been trying to put this explanation together in my own mind for a very, very long time. I'm so glad that you were able to describe the various Paths in such a solid way. Well done.
i really appreciate that you didn't denounce the eclectic side and actually listed some pros and cons to both sides and how we can learn from each other. surprisingly and depressingly refreshing
I feel like there has to be a balance of both. My matron is Tiamat. I almost have to go by feeling because of how little is there for her...that isn't easy because of DnD and SMITE making it even harder to find info on her. I'm in the Eclectic camp but I see the validity in historical research. I found you yesterday and I am loving the content so far my dude!
This is so well spoken. So glad to have found my tribe of nerds! Seriously though, it is SO AWESOME to hear you speak of oppression dynamics and cultural appropriation! Really appreciate your voice in a place I was worried I didn't fit anymore. Battling hate, bigotry and racism is tough work. Thank you for your intelligent message!
Well said. I think the term I find most useful to me is revivalist because I find I land pretty much in the middle and walk a crooked path between them.
Thank you for this. As the 'Chieftain' of North West Heathens here in the UK this is something our members tend to struggle with quite often. Your words make a lot of sense sir and you have provided me with some much needed clarity this morning. Your best video yet I reckon!
Your nerdiness helps a lot of people with the amount of information you have, especially with the cluster fluck of CERTAIN PEOPLE spreading false or dangerous info. Thanks again for another amazing video :)
Thank you for this Ocean! Up until now I didn’t know I was an eclectic pagan I just thought I wasn’t “pagan enough” to fit in with others. I’m a huge history nerd and I love researching ancient faiths, but what drew me in was the experience of being approached by a god at a young age, and if I invest too deeply into the past, I start to forget what I currently have. For example, when I study Greek deities he is associated with, I start to “impose” characteristics and personality onto him which he has never presented to me. It can be helpful to research for me in moderation, but if I go too far I can’t connect back to that same feeling. That original entity. You’ve given me a sense of identity and validation in the pagan community now, so thank you!
Really informative video, thank you for making the distinctions and I learned something new about the term NeoPagan. I'm definitely a history nerd, more of a folklorist or secular/atheist loosely interested in pagan ritual and very much love your channel's content.
I've got to say that it is really inspiring to listen to you talk about the religions and to experience threw your knowledge your faith. Truly you are a remarkable person. I consider my self as a "seeker". I do not claim a faith per say... Although your explanation do make me wanna dive more in to this one. Keep up the good work.
I have been questioning so much, and this was the first video I stumbled across in my search for like minded people. You are so helpful, and I thank you so very much.
This is relatable because I grew up Christian around churches and my father was a pastor for a time. That put me on a path of becoming more eclectic because growing up with laws and traditions shoved into yourself isn't always helpful. It came to a point where I really needed to experience a relationship with divinity because studying textbooks and getting an A on tests wasn't gonna cut it for me. I needed more than just evidence. I needed to walk the walk and have the gods pave the road for me. 100% though, I cannot rely completely on just profound mystical experiences because it's no joke that there are really forces out there that want to hinder our journey and relationship with the heavens. A person really has to be hard on their mystical experiences and challenge them.
Loved this video. You said everything that needs to be said on this topic. We should all stand together and learn from each other. That is the path to growth.
I want to distagree with a few points here, but honestly I can't. So that's awkward. 😆 Sidenote: I actually have a black sun necklace lying around somewhere, because it looked like a cool symbol and I had no idea about it's history way back when I bought it. Erm. Whoops. This is why learning about history is important no matter if you're trying to copy the old ways or just take inspiration for personal reinterpretations.
This is so perfectly detailed, touching on many different concepts, and problematic actions & assumptions. You do a wonderful job shutting down a lot of ignorant arguments and really show any nitpicking between the two sides is just plain silly.
Honestly speaking I resonate with your closing thoughts. Eclectics and Recons sounds like they should work well together. Almost like they are two side of the same Polytheistic coin. When I first started out after being introduced to Freyja during a Wiccan ritual I was more than likely an eclectic. I didn't know where to look and what sources to trust online so I focused on my own experiences and listened to those of others. But ever since finding your channel I've learned so much that I feel like my sense of Norse Paganism and understanding of it have doubled.
As an Eclectic witch, I thank you for your words. In my practice, the Norse pantheon is one that I honor. I hope there are more Heathens such as yourself to learn from.
I used to be very eclectic and now I am leaning to a more recon approach. I struggled allot with being afraid I'd mess something up in my practice when I first went recon and it caused me to practice less often. Until I realized I'm still learning and filling in the gaps with what feels right is fine it is what everyone does anyway.
I'm so glad you posted this! There's so much misinformation and confusion about what even any of this is! Thank you! Thank you for being a level-headed logical person!!!!
As a neurodivergent, disabled young person who doesn’t have a lot of easy access to necessarily friendly/unbiased pagan folk to learn from, I’ve found for a long time I have no idea what I am for sure yet, I’m still gradually learning. So I just say I’m the pagan equivalent of that one super busy Christian who still believes but hardly has time to go to church 😆 honestly when you mentioned the thought of running into the woods away from everyone else I couldn’t stop laughing
I sit at an odd crossroads in my following of Hecate. I approached eclectically, but listening following Hecate's torch has often lead me to reconstruction.
Thank you for this. I am definitely eclectic, and I love that you teased out the doubt quality with electics, because I am always dealing with it. I love your brain.
Keep up the good work you have NO idea how much your content has helped me in finding my feet in heathenry and paganism in general because HOO boy is there alot of problems from overly aggressive arguing and bias-filled information or lack there of its easy to get detoured and disheartened.. just thank you for the great content and a reasonable voice that is willing to have an open mind and encourage discussion and learning but not opposed to shunning the experiences people feel too. just a big ol'thank you in general :)
As an eclectic pagan i'm so glad you touched on the appropriation of other cultures! It really is a problem and many just excuse it on "having the freedom to experience everything else" even when it's inappropriate and disrespectful of others religions/cultures/practices...
Just want to thank you for your work, I'm a relatively new pagan who leans more eclectic although I love researching and incorporating as much recon as I can in my practice. And your channel has been an amazing help so far both for my knowledge and in my pursuit of faith.
I like that you touched on the issues of appropriation of closed practice. I think this video was extremely well delivered and didn't try to look down on either paths, more just focus on the pros and cons. Honestly, that is something you rarely see in this area. As a recon myself, I have seen us get a bad rep in eclectic spaces and vice versa. I think it is far more important for us to have our own way while respecting the opposite side. We should both be open to constructive criticism as well, but the fighting between both camps is unnecessary, imo.
We are all different pieces of the larger puzzle. We all play our roles for ourselves as well for each other. This made me think more on this and I greatly appreciate the good work.
It may sound silly, but I must say that hearing someone as knowledgable as you speak about paganism is very validating. I am very eclectic in my practice, but I love the amount of historical research that reconstructionists put into their faith. Thank you for the amazing video!
Thanks for this video. I’ve been watching many videos on your channel to get a better grasp on Norse paganism/heathenry but I think I’d prosper better on the eclectic path. I’ve really always been an omnist- even when I considered myself a Christian- and even when I was a Christian I had an absolute fascination with the Greek pantheon. When I discovered paganism I was like, “this is literally meant to be”. But through several… events that make a very long story, I’ve come to believe that a certain Norse deity has been trying to get my attention, so I felt so confused on what to do. I discovered eclectic paganism through research but a lot of people were saying it was really disrespectful to pick and choose different parts of a religion for your own use. Which, I can completely understand if you’re just pulling stuff off the internet willy-nilly. So I’ve been determined to thoroughly educate myself on both practices before participating in any worship just to make sure I’m being respectful, but the whole time I’ve felt very guilty about it. This video made me feel much more valid in my spiritual journey. I appreciate it 😊
Thank you for this video Ocean. As someone who has been uncomfortably floating in between these groups, this respectful (but also honest and blunt when needed) analysis of the benefits and disadvantages to both viewpoints was extremely encouraging and encouraged me further to my leaning towards Reconstructionism. I use to be Eclectic, but have been shifting into Reconstructionism. I've worshiped Norse gods and goddesses for a few years, but due to having other practices as well (ceremonial magick, chaos magic, tarot) I thought that barred me from being a Recon. However, I often felt just as out of place (or more) in eclectic circles because there was little interest in understanding cultural context, and tons of revisionist history, and a lot of, as you mentioned, trying to give authority of one UPG over another. I found that the gifting cycle, understanding the gods through the myths, and learning about the Heathen worldview actually furthered the goals of my personal spiritual journey more than through eclectic methods. I posted some of these thoughts about not fitting into either camp on a general pagan subreddit and a bunch of recons came out of the woodwork to say "hey, you don't have to give up those other things to be a recon." It was kind of a moment of realization. Maybe I don't fit perfectly in with Reconstructionists, but in the end, I decided I have a lot more in common with Recons and the types of discussion in Recon spaces are way more interesting and valuable to my personal spirituality. I've started calling myself a Synchronistic Norse Heathen after considering all this. I hope this label indicates I have elements of practice that are outside of Heathenry, but that I understand the gods and goddesses (and interact with them) through a recon lens.
My problem when Wicca first came out in my area back in the early 1990's and I was in my early teens. I was into building model rocks, and jet rocket science .. IS .. a lot easier then what they make it out to be. Along that I could make jewelry to fund my aircraft, why would .. spirits .. call themselves .. frost giants .. teach a teenagers space science. My fellow class mates went through the school's library tomes dictionaries to look up root languages, and it took many of the students three months to .. sing song .. the old German/ Norse in the sentences I was using to explain how the rocket jet worked. The .. gods .. give humans information base on what our current understanding allows us to understand. Stay away from Mercury, if you are not careful he Will give you too much knowledge you can not process leaving you burnt out for more than a few years.
Yeah, we need to stamp out European paganism once and for all. Europeans have never had any connection with the divine, unless we're talking about the Sami or Roma or Jews.
I'm a monotheist but I definitely appreciate the sophisticated nature of this channel. I have never encountered polytheist content like this on RUclips.
Good to see someone else talk about shared and verified gnosis. I think some people who dismiss all UPG without discussion forget how the lore we have now came to exist in the first place. Obviously it should be grounded in what is known but not limited to it.
Fascinating perspective. Very well explained. Braggi himself would probably be impressed. This kind of phenomenon seems to exist across many types of religious traditions.
Wonderful video. I am a mixture of both paths and you made all the arguments make sense. Btw, being a bookworm/nerd myself, I can say that is a compliment. I am currently working on "proper" pronunciation of the runes, gods, etc. in old Norse, lol. I find it exciting but people look at me with a look that says "geek". I am new to your channel but you are not annoying! Hilarious and enlightening are better descriptions.
I’ve been diving into Norse Paganism over the last 2.5 years and I feel more drawn to reconstruction. However, I feel each person is entitled to their own opinion and I don’t have the knowledge to say which is the right or wrong way of practicing. I find what you spiritually gravitate to you should go with. Your videos have educated me daily, thank you Ocean
Fascinating how these alternate approaches to spirituality match up so well with other faiths and belief systems, too. As an example, empirical science vs academic.
Thank you for such an articulate and well-worded presentation on the subject. I definitely fall more into the 'reconstructionist' camp, specifically Celtic, but finding any worthwhile information on authentic Celtic practice can be a real pain. Author DJ Conway, for instance, claims in her book "Celtic Magic" that the Celtic peoples recognized a horned god and triple moon goddess - which, while not incorrect, does a disservice to other figures in the pantheon such as the Dagda and Brigid and so on. So as of right now my practice is very much a work in progress. I'm still studying though. :) May the gods bless you and your work, Ocean.
I'm of the mind that different cultures have different amounts of sacred knowledge that was lost through time. The key is to take the best from all. Afterall, a delicious steak is not from the salt alone. Sometimes you need different cuts of meat with different seasonings. It's all going in the fire anyway.
I agree with this. An interesting thought on 'cultural appropriation' is dealing with reincarnation. Sure, we happen to be born in this life into a certain culture but our soul may have been deeply incorporated into a different culture in a past life. For instance, I have Germanic heritage but have always been strangely talented at playing Tibetan singing bowls and enjoy playing them. Why would I limit myself to only the culture of my current life and not those of lives past?
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Well spoken, Ocean. You have, in this past year especially, put on a clinic of what it's like to be a non-toxic and healthy leading voice in any community. It's always refreshing to drink the water or the mead, here. Hail to you, good sir.
I guess that means that you're vaxxed like him? Nothing like being in ideological lockstep with the Masonic-science! I just wasn't expecting to hear "anti-vaxx pagans" this morning! Wow... the heart disease/cancer/clot shot. At least us "anti-vaxx pagans" will still be around to keep things going.
I can drink to that
Not disagreeing. But what is meant by non-toxic and healthy? Were the pagan Danes what anyone would call non-toxic and healthy in the same sense?
We say we want a religion that is kind, friendly, open to everyone. A religion that moves with the times. We say we want this because we are like this already and we fear change. We say we want a religion like this, but what we mean is that we can do without it. We can go on being whatever we like, we needn’t drag religions down or up with us. What we want is a religion that moves the world. Not another religion that moves along with it. Cast Runes and let your ancestors vote. Why shouldn’t their say count as much as ours?
you're a lovable nerd, not annoying
awww
does that mean i can throw books at you and say "well actually" in the middle of your sentences?
@@OceanKeltoi That would make you a dork, not a nerd
@@missZoey5387 well, actually...
@@missZoey5387 whats the difference lol
@@OceanKeltoi Yes! I love that.
As someone veering towards eclecticism, this was wonderful to hear. Also might I add that you, Aliakai, Beofeld, and Wolf pulled me away from WoO and I thank you for it. I would have totally followed him down that culty rabbit hole so thank you
same here i have been pagan for a few years now and recently felt the pull to Norse mythology so glad I found Ocean and Wolf first
Hello, I'm fairly new in the pagan community, what does WoO mean? I see it around a fair amount and google is failing me. Yours is capitalized differently than I usually see though so it might be something else.
@@Bumbillion The Wisdom of Odin.
@@Bumbillion also a pun seeing a “woo” describes anti-science world view
@@Bumbillion I might have missed something then, what is it about wisdom of Odin?
Even as a Norse pagan I actually often go to the Vedic texts and traditions to understand myself and my worldview. Considering that they're at least 6000 years old and of Indo-European descent I l've filled in several of the blank spots where the Germanic sources fall short.
That’s not a bad idea. Hinduism is Indo-European so there’s a shared cultural ancestry between the Norse religion and Hinduism.
@@jasontscott-west6037 ew. Hinduism and Germanic beliefs was share a common origin point but there’s such a vast difference of place and time it’s like comparing whales and hippos as nearly identical because of their shared ancestry.
@@heathenpride7931 no, it's like knowing that they share anatomical things and use this knowledge in your favor when something is missing on the hippo.
the norse and the hindu were once the same people.many people believe hinduisum comes from indo europeans.
@@heathenpride7931 look into old Vedic and upnishadic texts and you will see your folly. They preserve the ways of the old. While Germanic peoples abandoned their gods for yhvh, India had it's own shares of Yhvhs, only difference was that Indian monotheists could say that they their religion was "indigenous" and not imported Judaism.
Catholic/monotheistic follower here (hopefully that's not patronizing). I get equally frustrated with the 'Trads vs Rads' battle happening in the western church. Really enjoy your method of approaching spirituality - in this video and beyond.
I was raised Lutheran and I still have Christianity as part of my eclecticism, so I guess I'm part of both of these battles.
Ah yes, Tradicals vs Raditionalists
Correct christian vision of god is as a Monarchia. Monotheism is a protestant invention first used by Henry More. A more fitting term would be monolatrism.
@@KarlKristofferJohnsson Interesting seeing you here ;P (TK - Joey)
@@M7dragon3 It's a small world!
Recons: find a way
Eclectics: make one
This is the best and easiest way to define those terms, I love it.
I've always been a fan of the idea of "The best idea is the idea that works best for you." This is the primary reason I embrace the idea of Electicism. But y'know, I see no value is knocking reconstructionists for doing recon; this is what works best for them.
I'd hesitated to call myself 'Reconstructionist' before. While I still don't know I would call myself that- I think you've opened up my notions of what it is. Thanks for this topic, Ocean!
There's a better identification. A contemporary heathen. A person learns and applies the lessons of the stories to their own life, and honor the Gods who they identify with the most based on who they are.
Do you think braggi ever sits in the shower reinacting his argument with loki in aegirs hall, thinking of some fire roast he should of used instead of just trying to appeas him.
Its uncanny how often the best roasts only occur to us after the argument.
Beautifully articulated Ocean, you manage to put out information on both without coming off as antagonistic to either and perfectly outline some of my own thoughts on the issue
Chaire Ocean! You are an amazing influence to not only the Norse Polytheist community, but to all of the Pagan communities and beyond. You are such an olive branch to the atheists and create respect from the dogmatic Abrahamic faiths. Hail to you and thank you for the great work you do!!
well ruddy said Aristos
Isn't viewing things through a narrow lens and shaming others what turned us ALL away from Christianity?
My practice is Eclectic mainly because I'm totally new at this and there are few other pagans to reach out to in my area. That being said, there are a few Reconstructionists that I reach out to in order to learn and better my own practice. So I think regardless of which position you identify with, there is a part of the other in there. But what do I know? I'm a total noob.
I feel like a lot of us start out eclectic for exactly this reason and as we learn more, we find a happy little niche to settle into. :)
Why use the term "Pagan" though? Why pretend any of this postmodern anti-fascist stuff has anything to do with the ancient religions of pre-Christian Europe, of all times and places? There are so many religions that are still alive, or you could just say you are a New Ager, or just simply say "I'm spiritual, I don't like labels." Why appropriate ancient Pagan motifs that have nothing to do with your modern way of life and worldview?
I will have to watch this again, paying too much attention to the chat. Welcome to all the new people!
I've been resisting the call to Norse paganism because of the association to white supremacists. You've shown me the other side Ocean and for that I am extremely grateful!
As a new Heathen I had someone just the other day ask me about my Mjolnir pendant, so I told them about my new faith. First thing they asked, “Isn’t that just neo naziism?”... sometimes people are just ignorant. Doesn’t mean they are stupid, it means you have an opportunity to teach. And by teaching, you find the facts of why you believe yourself.
@@kraftysandwich well said brother
Imagine my surprise at the call.
@@HroduuulfSonOfHrodger thank you! I'll definitely check out that site
Same here! I’m new to paganism and I’m definitely eclectic right now, but I didn’t even think about Norse Paganism until very recently.
I end up being eclectic, I have always had an interest in reconstruction but i didn’t know where to start. However I remember reading the story of Odin at the well of wisdom. He tore his own eye out to gain wisdom that thought me that there was value in wisdom. He was also a traveler so though redundant to say, he has been to many places and spoken to many people. I do my best to do the same through reading books from various cultures. I always remember my roots and do my best to stay sceptic of what I read. This was a well worded video and I thank you for the reminder to reflect on my journey and what it has thought me so far.
As an Eclectic Pagan, I really appreciate the educated and thoughtful way that you communicated this information and it has given me a new-found respect for both my path and the path of Reconstructionism. Thank you for taking the time to make this and putting so much thought into it!
I mean it's a bit of a prerequisite to being a pagan to be a nerd...
love how this video also talks about the complexity of both of these movements within paganism. Keep it up these are so good and I will continue to recommend these to friends!!!
neeeerrrrddd
But yeah, they're both very complex, and there's a reason why they're both so heavily populated. I wanted to make sure I explored that fairly.
I disagree, I am no nerd. Now, to settle it, send out one of your menfolk...it's Holmgang Time!
Why can't we smash the like button more than once?! Wonderfully articulated. I really enjoyed this. Definitely sharing
I'm really glad you enjoyed it!
Someone who has an eclectic approach can claim to be a reconstructionist, since eclecticism existed in the ancient world--and still exists in some of the religious practices of East Asia and India.
I dunno...I can totally see what your saying. It's true that some did adopt other peoples deities, but reconstructionists are called to specific pantheons and their religious practices.
@@bezoticallyyours83 But isn't that a modern--i.e. fundamentalist--approach? Pre-Christian peoples, in many cases, especially among the educated classes, saw the gods of other tribes as local names for their own gods, welcomed in new practices, or took a "when in Rome...." approach.
@@gregcampwriter Not at all. A fundamentalist approach is being nasty and rigid and refusing to accept any other way then yours. These people are simply called and they chose to answer, because that's what is right for their personal path. Doesn't mean they can't be flexible. Of course you're better off asking them. They can educate you better on what they believe.
@@bezoticallyyours83 You're adding nasty and rigid here, but you claimed that reconstructionists feel called to a specific way.
@@gregcampwriter
You were the one who added modern fundamentalist terms, when I said nothing of the sort. Fundamentalism is associated negatively with zealots, particularly in the modern day. Once upon a time it probably did have a different meaning.
To reconstruct means to rebuild or restore something right? For example some people are called to specific pantheons and religious practices and wish to restore that religion in the modern day.
Maybe its because they've always been fascinated by the history and mythology that started them on that path and introduced them to their Gods? Maybe its because it was always part of their own rich cultural heritage and they want to right the wrongs of historical destruction and conversion? Whatever their reaons may be, they willingly chose to answer it.
It's really not that difficult to understand, and it is not meant to be negative or restrictive.
I'm just an eclectic, so as I said, it's best for you to talk to actual reconstructionists because they can give you better insight and answers.
Excellently articulated and more or less perfectly outlining my thoughts on the matter too.
Mick here new to the channel, and I love the vibe. Keep them coming, skull hail odin
Earned my subscription. You were objective. And as someone who falls on eclectic side, it feels good to see some of the problems i have come across in my own practice laid out with possible solutions. Thank you sir.
It was always the smell of campfire.. on a summer or winter night the feeling never changed.. I felt a calming feeling even alone I was at peace.
I was drawn to the outdoors almost to much so, I spend a lot of time there and there’s a feeling of home.. my past aside to feel at home broke me open and I knew I had the wanderer following me till I was ready to have the talk and accept my roots. The tree of life has always sheltered us from the harshest storms!
Hail to the gods!
Ok, so discovered your channel yesterday, and I have to say, I was pretty nervous heading in, as I have heard tell of the horrors of the AFA and others within this particular pagan community, which always struck me as incredibly sad that such a stain exists within the Neopagan community. However, I have been pleasantly surprised at the guts you have to simply state what you know to be wrong, and what you find personally enligtening and/or interesting, and to state it very eloquently and with tongue-in-cheek humour I might add!
All that out of the way, I wanted to draw your attention to eclecticism within ancient paganism itself; for example, the vast spread of the cults of Isis and Hecate, as well as the Interpretatio Romania of both Germanic and Brythonic gods and traditions, and vice versa, and in particular the fact that Alexander the Great declared himself the son of Amun and became Pharaoh of Egypt, which led to religious and stylistic synchrotisms such as statues of the god Zeus-Amun (look it up, you'll never unnsee Zeus with horns!) and other Greek and Egyptian artistic blends. I find all this incredibly fascinating, so wanted to share it, as an eclectic pagan myself
You don't actually believe in any of those deities though, do you? That would be really weird.
There are no Pagans in the 21st century. You would be sickened and horrified by their typical beliefs and practices, just as they would be horrified by yours.
I walk a fine, weird, hazy line in the middle between eclectic and reconstructionist -- values of both paths make me a wiser person, I think, personally. and your videos enrich my life and practice greatly. incredibly well spoken, Ocean. appreciate the channel so much.
I love how well spoken and open minded you are! You argued for both sides without invalidating anyone. ☺️
As an eclectic, this was a very enlightening and informative video. And no, you're not an ANNOYING nerd. You're a very loved one!
Reconstructionism can summed to be thus, "You build an alter to read thousands of books, you don't read thousands of books to build an alter" (-Ocean).
*altar
shared your video with a group i'm in dude it's really good
Excellent video Ocean!
This is such a mature, nuanced take on this subject which I really respect.
I’m currently reading Ronald Hutton’s Pagan Britain so the issue of the difficulties and complexities of reconstructing belief systems from archaeology as well as the issue that historians ascribe ideas, concepts and events to the past based on their own culture’s beliefs are at the forefront of my mind.
How did i miss this when it originally came out? Once again Ocean, you have distilled a multifaceted debate into words of wisdom. I was a recon for over a decade and eventually went the road of the eclectic. But your video has me rethinking a few things right now. That’s maybe the best complement I can pay you. Well done.
Very well spoken and worded as always Ocean.
I cannot properly express how much I enjoy your talks when I'm working late at night in my woodshop. Thank you!
After 24 years I am in the same boat. I really needed to hear this now.
I’m blown away by how awesome, thought provoking, and articulate this video is. Thank you.
One of your greatest videos yet. Thanks, Ocean!
I have only gotten as far as the appropriation segment but wow, thank you so much for speaking these things out loud. Love this channel.
Very well balanced and respectful without being pandering or overly simplistic in any way. I've been trying to put this explanation together in my own mind for a very, very long time. I'm so glad that you were able to describe the various Paths in such a solid way. Well done.
i really appreciate that you didn't denounce the eclectic side and actually listed some pros and cons to both sides and how we can learn from each other. surprisingly and depressingly refreshing
wow you’re a breath of fresh air, i’ve been waiting for this conversation
I feel like there has to be a balance of both. My matron is Tiamat. I almost have to go by feeling because of how little is there for her...that isn't easy because of DnD and SMITE making it even harder to find info on her.
I'm in the Eclectic camp but I see the validity in historical research. I found you yesterday and I am loving the content so far my dude!
This is so well spoken. So glad to have found my tribe of nerds! Seriously though, it is SO AWESOME to hear you speak of oppression dynamics and cultural appropriation! Really appreciate your voice in a place I was worried I didn't fit anymore. Battling hate, bigotry and racism is tough work. Thank you for your intelligent message!
Well said. I think the term I find most useful to me is revivalist because I find I land pretty much in the middle and walk a crooked path between them.
Hey, that's a great term! I find myself in a similar position, so thank you.
Thank you for this. As the 'Chieftain' of North West Heathens here in the UK this is something our members tend to struggle with quite often. Your words make a lot of sense sir and you have provided me with some much needed clarity this morning. Your best video yet I reckon!
Nothing wrong with being an annoying nerd. I'm a Cybersecurity Engineer, so I make a living being an annoying nerd lol.
Your nerdiness helps a lot of people with the amount of information you have, especially with the cluster fluck of CERTAIN PEOPLE spreading false or dangerous info. Thanks again for another amazing video :)
Thank you for this Ocean! Up until now I didn’t know I was an eclectic pagan I just thought I wasn’t “pagan enough” to fit in with others. I’m a huge history nerd and I love researching ancient faiths, but what drew me in was the experience of being approached by a god at a young age, and if I invest too deeply into the past, I start to forget what I currently have. For example, when I study Greek deities he is associated with, I start to “impose” characteristics and personality onto him which he has never presented to me. It can be helpful to research for me in moderation, but if I go too far I can’t connect back to that same feeling. That original entity. You’ve given me a sense of identity and validation in the pagan community now, so thank you!
Really informative video, thank you for making the distinctions and I learned something new about the term NeoPagan. I'm definitely a history nerd, more of a folklorist or secular/atheist loosely interested in pagan ritual and very much love your channel's content.
I've got to say that it is really inspiring to listen to you talk about the religions and to experience threw your knowledge your faith. Truly you are a remarkable person. I consider my self as a "seeker". I do not claim a faith per say... Although your explanation do make me wanna dive more in to this one. Keep up the good work.
I have been questioning so much, and this was the first video I stumbled across in my search for like minded people. You are so helpful, and I thank you so very much.
This is relatable because I grew up Christian around churches and my father was a pastor for a time. That put me on a path of becoming more eclectic because growing up with laws and traditions shoved into yourself isn't always helpful. It came to a point where I really needed to experience a relationship with divinity because studying textbooks and getting an A on tests wasn't gonna cut it for me. I needed more than just evidence. I needed to walk the walk and have the gods pave the road for me. 100% though, I cannot rely completely on just profound mystical experiences because it's no joke that there are really forces out there that want to hinder our journey and relationship with the heavens. A person really has to be hard on their mystical experiences and challenge them.
Loved this video. You said everything that needs to be said on this topic. We should all stand together and learn from each other. That is the path to growth.
I want to distagree with a few points here, but honestly I can't. So that's awkward. 😆
Sidenote: I actually have a black sun necklace lying around somewhere, because it looked like a cool symbol and I had no idea about it's history way back when I bought it. Erm. Whoops. This is why learning about history is important no matter if you're trying to copy the old ways or just take inspiration for personal reinterpretations.
This is so perfectly detailed, touching on many different concepts, and problematic actions & assumptions. You do a wonderful job shutting down a lot of ignorant arguments and really show any nitpicking between the two sides is just plain silly.
I love when my UPG leads me to historical knowledge
You make a lot of sense, I appreciate you.
Honestly speaking I resonate with your closing thoughts. Eclectics and Recons sounds like they should work well together. Almost like they are two side of the same Polytheistic coin.
When I first started out after being introduced to Freyja during a Wiccan ritual I was more than likely an eclectic. I didn't know where to look and what sources to trust online so I focused on my own experiences and listened to those of others. But ever since finding your channel I've learned so much that I feel like my sense of Norse Paganism and understanding of it have doubled.
As an Eclectic witch, I thank you for your words. In my practice, the Norse pantheon is one that I honor. I hope there are more Heathens such as yourself to learn from.
I used to be very eclectic and now I am leaning to a more recon approach. I struggled allot with being afraid I'd mess something up in my practice when I first went recon and it caused me to practice less often. Until I realized I'm still learning and filling in the gaps with what feels right is fine it is what everyone does anyway.
I’m an eclectic reconstructionist tbh. A skeptical believer. I try to compare/contrast my upg experiences with existing lore to see if it makes sense.
This was such a nuanced breakdown, thank you for your dedication to details!
I'm so glad you posted this! There's so much misinformation and confusion about what even any of this is! Thank you! Thank you for being a level-headed logical person!!!!
As a neurodivergent, disabled young person who doesn’t have a lot of easy access to necessarily friendly/unbiased pagan folk to learn from, I’ve found for a long time I have no idea what I am for sure yet, I’m still gradually learning. So I just say I’m the pagan equivalent of that one super busy Christian who still believes but hardly has time to go to church 😆 honestly when you mentioned the thought of running into the woods away from everyone else I couldn’t stop laughing
I sit at an odd crossroads in my following of Hecate. I approached eclectically, but listening following Hecate's torch has often lead me to reconstruction.
As a disaffected Christian and prospective pagan, this has been the most helpful video on the topic.
I just started watching your channel and I can't stop!
Thank you for this. I am definitely eclectic, and I love that you teased out the doubt quality with electics, because I am always dealing with it. I love your brain.
Keep up the good work you have NO idea how much your content has helped me in finding my feet in heathenry and paganism in general because HOO boy is there alot of problems from overly aggressive arguing and bias-filled information or lack there of its easy to get detoured and disheartened.. just thank you for the great content and a reasonable voice that is willing to have an open mind and encourage discussion and learning but not opposed to shunning the experiences people feel too.
just a big ol'thank you in general :)
You are well spoken no doubt… almost in a “Frasier Crane” kind of way. Very enjoyable to listen to.
As an eclectic pagan i'm so glad you touched on the appropriation of other cultures! It really is a problem and many just excuse it on "having the freedom to experience everything else" even when it's inappropriate and disrespectful of others religions/cultures/practices...
I love the nuance here.
Just want to thank you for your work, I'm a relatively new pagan who leans more eclectic although I love researching and incorporating as much recon as I can in my practice. And your channel has been an amazing help so far both for my knowledge and in my pursuit of faith.
Finally! Great video! I'm working on a book about my own UPG and experiences and this is one of the subjects I touch upon
"Do what you feel in your heart to be right- for you'll be criticized anyway."
That should be one of those life quotes that get passed around to each generation. 🤔
As someone who is beginning my journey, I appreciate you and your guidance with these videos. Also thank you about the heads up with WoO.
I like that you touched on the issues of appropriation of closed practice. I think this video was extremely well delivered and didn't try to look down on either paths, more just focus on the pros and cons. Honestly, that is something you rarely see in this area. As a recon myself, I have seen us get a bad rep in eclectic spaces and vice versa. I think it is far more important for us to have our own way while respecting the opposite side. We should both be open to constructive criticism as well, but the fighting between both camps is unnecessary, imo.
intelligent, interesting argument here, some good thinking and extremely rational.
We are all different pieces of the larger puzzle. We all play our roles for ourselves as well for each other. This made me think more on this and I greatly appreciate the good work.
I just started watching and you have given me something to think about, thank you, I no longer feel alone in what I do.
Dude...... this video blew my mind. I'm norse pagan, "reconstructionalist" and my wife is an eclectic pagan and holy shit, this video nailed it!
I think this is some great advice for approaching any kind of knowledge in community interaction... Thanks Ocean!
It may sound silly, but I must say that hearing someone as knowledgable as you speak about paganism is very validating. I am very eclectic in my practice, but I love the amount of historical research that reconstructionists put into their faith. Thank you for the amazing video!
Thanks for this video. I’ve been watching many videos on your channel to get a better grasp on Norse paganism/heathenry but I think I’d prosper better on the eclectic path. I’ve really always been an omnist- even when I considered myself a Christian- and even when I was a Christian I had an absolute fascination with the Greek pantheon. When I discovered paganism I was like, “this is literally meant to be”. But through several… events that make a very long story, I’ve come to believe that a certain Norse deity has been trying to get my attention, so I felt so confused on what to do.
I discovered eclectic paganism through research but a lot of people were saying it was really disrespectful to pick and choose different parts of a religion for your own use. Which, I can completely understand if you’re just pulling stuff off the internet willy-nilly. So I’ve been determined to thoroughly educate myself on both practices before participating in any worship just to make sure I’m being respectful, but the whole time I’ve felt very guilty about it. This video made me feel much more valid in my spiritual journey. I appreciate it 😊
Thank you for this video Ocean. As someone who has been uncomfortably floating in between these groups, this respectful (but also honest and blunt when needed) analysis of the benefits and disadvantages to both viewpoints was extremely encouraging and encouraged me further to my leaning towards Reconstructionism.
I use to be Eclectic, but have been shifting into Reconstructionism. I've worshiped Norse gods and goddesses for a few years, but due to having other practices as well (ceremonial magick, chaos magic, tarot) I thought that barred me from being a Recon. However, I often felt just as out of place (or more) in eclectic circles because there was little interest in understanding cultural context, and tons of revisionist history, and a lot of, as you mentioned, trying to give authority of one UPG over another. I found that the gifting cycle, understanding the gods through the myths, and learning about the Heathen worldview actually furthered the goals of my personal spiritual journey more than through eclectic methods.
I posted some of these thoughts about not fitting into either camp on a general pagan subreddit and a bunch of recons came out of the woodwork to say "hey, you don't have to give up those other things to be a recon." It was kind of a moment of realization. Maybe I don't fit perfectly in with Reconstructionists, but in the end, I decided I have a lot more in common with Recons and the types of discussion in Recon spaces are way more interesting and valuable to my personal spirituality. I've started calling myself a Synchronistic Norse Heathen after considering all this. I hope this label indicates I have elements of practice that are outside of Heathenry, but that I understand the gods and goddesses (and interact with them) through a recon lens.
My problem when Wicca first came out in my area back in the early 1990's and I was in my early teens. I was into building model rocks, and jet rocket science .. IS .. a lot easier then what they make it out to be. Along that I could make jewelry to fund my aircraft, why would .. spirits .. call themselves .. frost giants .. teach a teenagers space science. My fellow class mates went through the school's library tomes dictionaries to look up root languages, and it took many of the students three months to .. sing song .. the old German/ Norse in the sentences I was using to explain how the rocket jet worked.
The .. gods .. give humans information base on what our current understanding allows us to understand. Stay away from Mercury, if you are not careful he Will give you too much knowledge you can not process leaving you burnt out for more than a few years.
This is a very nuance and great video, keep up the good work!
Great Video Ocean, gonna share it out!
Yet again one more great video . I really do love your take on this
Thank you
Well said, I have to say that what you said rang true in my practice. Keep up the good work
So you're saying that Eclectics and Recons should stop arguing and team up against nazis and revisionist history. Gotcha.
Yeah, we need to stamp out European paganism once and for all. Europeans have never had any connection with the divine, unless we're talking about the Sami or Roma or Jews.
I don't think I can love this video enough. well spoken🍺
I'm a monotheist but I definitely appreciate the sophisticated nature of this channel. I have never encountered polytheist content like this on RUclips.
Good to see someone else talk about shared and verified gnosis. I think some people who dismiss all UPG without discussion forget how the lore we have now came to exist in the first place. Obviously it should be grounded in what is known but not limited to it.
I am amazed by this channel keep up the good work
Thanks so much!
@@OceanKeltoi this channel has done a lot to help me find my way it's an inspiration
Fascinating perspective. Very well explained. Braggi himself would probably be impressed. This kind of phenomenon seems to exist across many types of religious traditions.
Wonderful video. I am a mixture of both paths and you made all the arguments make sense. Btw, being a bookworm/nerd myself, I can say that is a compliment. I am currently working on "proper" pronunciation of the runes, gods, etc. in old Norse, lol. I find it exciting but people look at me with a look that says "geek". I am new to your channel but you are not annoying! Hilarious and enlightening are better descriptions.
I’ve been diving into Norse Paganism over the last 2.5 years and I feel more drawn to reconstruction. However, I feel each person is entitled to their own opinion and I don’t have the knowledge to say which is the right or wrong way of practicing. I find what you spiritually gravitate to you should go with. Your videos have educated me daily, thank you Ocean
Fascinating how these alternate approaches to spirituality match up so well with other faiths and belief systems, too. As an example, empirical science vs academic.
Thank you for such an articulate and well-worded presentation on the subject. I definitely fall more into the 'reconstructionist' camp, specifically Celtic, but finding any worthwhile information on authentic Celtic practice can be a real pain. Author DJ Conway, for instance, claims in her book "Celtic Magic" that the Celtic peoples recognized a horned god and triple moon goddess - which, while not incorrect, does a disservice to other figures in the pantheon such as the Dagda and Brigid and so on. So as of right now my practice is very much a work in progress. I'm still studying though. :) May the gods bless you and your work, Ocean.
I'm of the mind that different cultures have different amounts of sacred knowledge that was lost through time. The key is to take the best from all. Afterall, a delicious steak is not from the salt alone. Sometimes you need different cuts of meat with different seasonings. It's all going in the fire anyway.
I agree with this. An interesting thought on 'cultural appropriation' is dealing with reincarnation. Sure, we happen to be born in this life into a certain culture but our soul may have been deeply incorporated into a different culture in a past life. For instance, I have Germanic heritage but have always been strangely talented at playing Tibetan singing bowls and enjoy playing them. Why would I limit myself to only the culture of my current life and not those of lives past?