I absolutely love this one, and feel that it's very timely. As a gay Norse pagan who who identifies as a "gay Viking", I get a lot of the brosatru's who go "but you don't 'look' gay!" and "there aren't gay Vikings, dude!" Which brings the whole stereotyping thing into the picture. What does "gay" look like? When I watched your spooky draugr video I was one of those who thought this sounded like a gay Viking love/horror story. Well done, brother, and thank you!
I"m a cis man myself, and I feel strongly about positive LGBTQ+ representation & positive representations of masculinity. I really appreciate this video, thank you ! (rainbow vikings, yay :) )
Hey it doesn't matter if your gay... It matters if your DRENGR what are your values are you a decent person do you have courage, honor do you act with Virtue? That's what matters, don't listen to these Brosatru people, because really your more badass then them if you act like it
@@Name-tf4qp Im so tired of this mindset, Nobody is trying to be a Viking we are trying to Connect to the ways of our ancestors at least I am, and people are trying to embody and learn from the Old Norse Culture not just be a raider, the Northern Germanic People's were more than just raiders
This guy has no clue of what he is talking about... and should definitely not teach people about it... som en dansk hedning er det absurd at høre på hans vrøvl.
i love seeing you so comfortable with this discussion. A lot of straight cis people will acknowledge gay people, but then in a way are like "yeah i support gays, but im not gay!" So i guess in a way if i didn't have enough reasons to respect you before, i definitely do now.
I also love this perspective. A big thing holding me back from looking into and getting into Paganism is some of the anti-queer, racist, and otherwise bigoted people using especially Norse symbolism. So finding this video is helpful, even if it's not the brand of Paganism I land on.
Serious note here. And this is completely inference based on the stories. But. What if the towns people didn't like the Co King possibly gay couple. So they (some one) killed the one who established the situation using poison of some kind. And that's why he came back as a draugr. He was seeking revenge in death and lashed out at the first person he saw due to his unrest from the injustice he suffered. Something to think about.
To be honest the first time I heard 'suddenly fell ill' that was my first thought, but without this extra context I thought it might have been the 'brother' that did it to get the kingship to himself
What if he was poisoned before the grave watch causing hallicunations because poison and then spreading the myth of the draug, where he barely survived indeed, being poisoned..
Started with an "it's always possible" Reminder of how deep it went, myself remembering that even as an animated corpse, Aran offered Asmund food and exhausted all other food sources first, "alright yeah I see it" More context, including sharing everything 50/50 and being co-kings, "I don't see a heterosexual explanation for this"
I don't see why sharing 50/50 and co-kings should be impossible for tight hetero guys. That said I think a romantical relationship does sound like the more plausible read, I would also like to lift how fast the relationship came to be to support that thesis, sounds a lot like falling in love rather then a strongly built friendship.
Thank you! I have a good friend of mine, who is bisexual and a fellow Heathen. He was ostracized from a kindred because " there are no gay vikings" bullshit. I defended him in a vigorous debate with the gothi of that kindred, citing the Odin and Loki examples. I had completely forgotten this tale. A PERFECT example of the complexity of ancient sexuality and the social dynamics of that time. Again, thank you for you knowledge and insight!
Best part of this video is learning there was no question in Plato’s mind Achilles and Patroclus were lovers. Nah, the real question in plato’s mind is which one was the top lmao
Ok but in Troilus and Cressida, Shakespeare’s Achilles/Patroclus fanfic, a character insults Patroclus as Achilles‘ bitch. So Shakespeare thought Patroclus was the bottom…
I've been so ruined by modern Internet culture that, as you related how Asmund regarded Aran as "the most handsome man he'd ever seen", my brain gifted me with a vision of future historians and anthropologists studying this tale and remarking, "Seems kinda sus though, not gonna lie."
Cishet white guys who are into mythology and vikings often get a bad rep for being ignorant towards queer identities but you completely pick apart that stereotype. I love it
The legal loophole point about sworn brotherhood being a way to have gay marriage reminded me of other cultures that did similar, namely in Chinese and sometimes Japanese culture
I appreciate the discussion on complex society. People romanticize viking culture to the point that they forget they were human like the rest of us and equally complex. So, of course there were LGBT+ vikings because there are LGBT+ people today.
yeah some must have been in the lgbtq+ community, but not that many as today, because back than were fewer ppl in general. for example in the modern day there are 634.293 ppl living in oslo according to a 2014 census. i'm not sure the actual number, but it must be at least 10.000 ppl back than in the middle age (900 - 1200) in oslo. sooo at least 20 - 50 of them can be in the lgbtq+ community.
@@doublesalopetoimcre Probably a lot more than 20-50. It's estimated that about 1% of the population is asexual, so if we assume medieval Oslo generally had about 10,000 people living in it (I have no idea what the actual population would have been either,) then about 100 of those people would be asexual, and since there's a lot more bi/pan people and gay people thatn there are asexual people, there'd easily be a few hundred of them.
@@poTato_777 I would agree with you for the most part. However, can you honestly say you are attracted to all people? I my case I am more attracted to men than women. So in order have people better understand my preferences I need to have some way to express that. Though I get what you are saying people should not limit themselves to one thing or another.
@@gabrielluchs3476 I dont find fat women attractive, but there is no need for me to identify as slimsexual, is there. sexual preference should not be a dividing factor between people imo, it is really not that important ;d
If the gay theory is correct, i think it's interesting that the "hero" is not only gay, but the submissive one. You'd think if the culture was so against being gay the story (weather true or not) would not have been as long lived. The people would not perpetuate a story with a sympathetic protagonist that went so far against their values. Smells like Christianity vilified something that the original tellers of the story saw as at least a neutral characteristic if not a positive one. Expetialy with Odin also sharing the characteristic.
This is just speculation on my part, but as most if not all stories which describes Ergi are written centuries after the fact, is it entirely impossible it may in fact have been a lot more nuanced than later (mostly Christian) writers gave it credit for? Hear me out. Several cultures with very clearly defined gender roles also have a built-in "opt out clause", in the form of what is essentially a culturally codified transgender identity. (I can do a bit of digging for concrete examples, but don't have the time at the moment.) And here's where I really go into theory crafting, but given the particulars of the story, the concept of Ergi, the practice of Seiðr (which we know to be women's magic, but literally nothing else), and the archaeological evidence of women buried with weapons and armour... (Plus the obvious, with Odin and Loki.) I don't know about you, but things does seem to add up to something a lot more nuanced and complex than the hypermasculine rage machines we get in the media depiction of vikings since forever. (Not saying anything conclusive, because it's literally just speculation. But you can probably use your imagination to fill in the blanks, much like I did.)
@@Grevnor Isnt seidr known a womenly magic but desopite it was frowned upon, ther were male practitioners. I sa that in an article and didnt look th sources but why not. And odin did learn it, so why not other men too like from their mothers. Also yes ther seem several third genders in all of history. But seidr could very much be wicca like it maybe attracts queer folk, but not nessesary is an indicator.
This is something I share often. Much of the little we have is filtered by Christian worldview. "Well just say these gays were friends. You know, like Jesus and Peter"
@@MrCmon113 i think that's a very post christian look at the Nordic culture. We know very little about Thier thoughts on gender before Christians wrote it down, and Christians had a vested interest in making it seem like the culture always hated women.
I found some of it reaching but overall makes sense and wolf's poison theory brings more to it. It was my first thought when you said "suddenly became ill"
Hell im close with my friend only because Im too scared to tell him I love him lol but we have gotten so much closer and are able to talk to each other about our feelings and he even put the letter I wrote him in his fav part of his room.
One thing that came to mind when you mentioned that their relationship was described as a "sworn brotherhood" - I just finished reading The Satyricon, and within the text, the main character has a gay lover who is occasionally referred to as "brother", both by himself and others. Perhaps that could've been a recurring type of terminology in older cultures before homosexuality was given it's own label?
Various ancient cultures did use kinship terms to refer to romantic bonds. It's not a direct parallel (since it's straight), but the Song of Solomon has the male lover refer to his beloved as "my sister", and apparently the use of brother/sister terminology in love poetry was fairly common in the Ancient Near East. (That might seem a little weird and incestuous to our modern culture... _buuut_ we should keep in mind that our modern culture has sexual uses of the terms "daddy/mommy".) So yeah, I could definitely see men in the ancient world referring to male lovers as "brother", either just to show affection or maybe to obfuscate their relationship a bit if their society isn't fully approving.
In Rome, men would refer to their wives as sister and wives to their husband as sister, so these kind of family terms are often just part and parcel of romantic links in general rather than anything necessarily linked to homosexuality. But historian John Boswell argues that the early/medieval Christian rite of adelphopoiesis "brother making" was a formal recognition of same sex relationships equivalent to marriage.
I have always thought about this topic since transitioning into paganism from christianity. I always thought how would the gods look upon me for being bi sexual and this explains all of that and i deeply thank you for the explanation and clearing this fog. May the gods bless you and yours.
I have been so excited for this video and it did not disappoint. This is such a good example of how to recognize bias, its impact if unrecognized, and you lay it out beautifully.
One final comment, the whole Ergi thing has been kinda not... ruined... but at the least, affected, by that one Jackson Crawford video where he said the best modern equivalent he could think of was the 3rd garder insult "sissy".
IIRC from the beginning of that video, he admits directly that he chose that term so as to not have to resort to the kinds of slurs that get people kicked out of my home. It may perhaps be that another word would better fit the spirit of the work and simply be too offensive to publicize.
Yes this is something he went into a few times and said that there were other words that would better fit the spirit of the word ergi but he would not say them.
As Slav, I am obligated to sneak in some vampires somehow, granted, but turning into a draugr may be interesting in itself in this scenario. For example, around here becoming an undead, an upyr, can very much come, at least in later folklore, as a consequence of sexual perversion, amongst other things such as the use of magic, heresy, and curses, et cetera.
This is an interesting and important discussion to have. However, we must also realize the inherent issues with associating close male bonding with sexuality and sexual activities. We often see this in popular culture when two males sho affection towards each other, it doesn't take long until they are claimed by certain groups of the LGBT+ community or dismissed as deviants by the conservative community. A quick search on Fan-Art forums makes this rather graphically clear, pun intended if it can be called that. In any case, it does make it difficult for males in our society to show affection towards each other without being mislabeled, which in turn can generate overly masculine toxic traits in order to disprove such labels.
Absolutely. I think I reasonably caveated this issue in the video, that yes, often close friends are close friends. Not all affection between men is sexual. In this particular case, however, I think its a reasonable reading.
I take some issue with putting the onus of this issue on queer people representing fictional subjects as part of their community; even before lgbt representation in fandom or outside was a thing people were debating and shipping together every female and male character that even looked at each other, I think the urge to imagine different scenarios of our stories, especially romantically, is just a part of humanity. It is absolutely an issue that people assume two men who are close or affectionate to be a gay couple, but this also absolutely happens with male and female friends who are very close, it's an issue of people not minding their business that only becomes more emphasized with men because of homophobia in general.. I think it's more productive to try and combat the association that being mistaken for a gay couple is bad and making the world more safe for gay couples, than trying to stop people from interpreting stories in a way that represents them. I know like... reframing masculinity and sexuality is harder, but I think it is a more productive way to deal with this issue.
One grave I find particularly fascinating is the Suontaka grave in Finland. The person was buried in expensive women’s clothing, but also with weapons, like men often were. They did genetic testing on the remains and found that this person likely had Kleinfelter’s syndrome, a chromosomal condition that effects males, and is caused by an extra X chromosome(XXY instead of the normal male chromosomes, XY). This tells me this person and their community likely knew they were different(people with Kleinfelter’s are often have less muscle mass than an ordinary male, smaller genitals, less public hair, breast growth, less body hair than many ordinary males, etc.) but they were still highly respected by their community despite this. This makes me wonder if the ancestors acknowledged any third gender, like the Native American Two-Spirit and the Christians just buried/destroyed any written or documented evidence of it. It’s given me serious Odinitis!
This is definitely something to think about when studying history. Makes me want to reread some things. It's kinda like when you rewatch Disney movies when you are an adult and you notice all the jokes that went over your head as a child.
I first want to thank you for both recognising and diving into this after seeing new information and perspectives. As a very queer Pagan myself I immediately recognised the trends in historical retelling that hinted toward this possibility, and it is both interesting and validating to learn more about the story. This is also sending me quite suddenly down a research rabbit hole that I am (unsurprisingly, but sadly) discovering a bit of a dearth on. Thank you for the video and book recommendations, which I am immediately going to consume, and I would be extremely interested in any other sources you might have or find on the subject of queerness in "Pagan history".
Very well done, and good on you for admitting your bias. We've all got blind spots and it's great to see someone actually considering points they missed when said points are brought up.
Draugr were known to rise in response to their spirit wanting to seek a desire, weren't they? Haven't there even been a couple Draugr that explicitly rose to return (in a healthy manner or not, given the fact that draugr were known to impulsively lash out, kill, eat or spoil all the food in an area, etc) to loved ones?
At first I was upset that I missed the premiere. The day this premiered, I had just finished the part in the Iliad where Achilles went against warning of his death to avenge and meet death for Patroclus. They way you cover these tales, myth and overall content is stunning. You are amazing.
What I hate is that people will try gatekeeping me from Norse religion bc I’m queer and “yOu WoUldN’t Be AcCePtEd BaCk ThEn” and it’s like oh well ! I’d still be Swedish though. Like someone’s identity / morality doesn’t define if they’re of a certain culture or not???
Love this video Ocean, I would say you've really dug out as much info as you could. This video along side Aalie's video really paints how history is far more complicated for sexuality than people like to think. Great job as always. :D
Ok so at around 11:30 and 12:00 that sounds like a wedding. In my culture we use red ribbon that we hold in between each other's palms to represents our blood mixing and becoming one. So yeah they just got married.
Personally how dare you accuse a perfectly platonic and nonromantic relationship between two handsome, beautiful men who simply want to press together in the cold embrace of the earth, in deep (but not gay!) love with one another, who shared their kingdom together as a husband and wife would their house, very heterosexually, no gay here. How dare.
Well done Ocean. You used critical source review to make your point valid. To admit that we can't tell for sure is like the main point about historical debattes. Greetings from a german history nerd enjoying your content.
As a queer man of mostly Danish descent, this was super exciting for me to watch!! Logically I know that people like me have existed as long as humanity has existed, but it can feel hard when within my own lineage I never get to hear about people that. Knowing about these Aran and Asmund is nourishing on a soul level. Thank you for your grounded perspective and the time and skill it took to research and put this together 🙏🏻💖♥️
“Loki as well has an association with ergi, despite being the one to accuse Odin of it.” Ah yes, the timeless gay culture of bottoms making fun of other bottoms for being bottoms.
Thank you so much for the analysis. It's true one grows reading or listening to stories, and when we learn to discern we ,wait a minute? That's more than friendship!
Thank you for making this! Finding information about the spirituality of my ancestors is hard enough, as is queer history both have been deliberately erased. This is so special. I'd be so grateful for any more videos on gay viking culture.
Honestly, makes me think of Jesus and John as well. It is cited a couple of times in the NT, about no one else mind you, that John was 'the disciple that Jesus loved' or ' whom Jesus loved'. Or that on the cross before he dies, Jesus references his mother and tells John "she is your mother" and (to her) "he is your son". I feel no particular way about either interpretation, but I am surprised more isn't made of David and Jonathan or Jesus and John. 🤷♀️
I'm late on commenting here, but I've been studying iron age archaeology for a bit now and you are so right about modern straight CIS man perceptions. We were discussing graves of mighty warrior woman from North that were given the "gender" male, because it seemed unacceptable for a woman to be buried in such respect. It's also extremely difficult for us not to make any assumptions because of the society that raised us. :') Even for us women studying archaeology, because we've been taught to accept that ladies usually never get the spotlight at war.
Ocean, I love how you throw humor in you talks. My personal feeling has always been that throughout history, men and women shared sexplay and often had deep loving relationships. Sometimes with opposite sex but often with same sex. In societies where the sexes are often separated, sex is still going to happen. We know, people married for many reasons. Love is a fairly new reason. Weddings were for mating, but also connections, money, power. (Oh, and I love that you use GRSM or GSRM.) We can see all of this by studying our cousins, other apes and monkeys!👍 🥰💖🤎✌
What an exciting revelation and great video, thank you so much for putting this out here. It makes so much sense. Certainly see the parallel with Achilles and Patroclus.
I think you hit the nail on the head that many people coming to modern Norse paganism come to it wanting to be the big bad masculine Viking. Many don't want to study about the boring Farmers or tradesmen, nor do they want to acknowledge the possibility that gender was looked at differently and that homosexuality existed & was accepted to some degree.
Queer folks in the US used to adopt each other for legal rights before marriage or civil unions were recognized, which is what I was thinking of the entire time Aran and Asmund were saying "we're blood brothers *wink wink*".
So glad to see how accepting you are of us queer folk. I didn't know of this legend until your Halloween video over it and was pleasantly surprised seeing here that there was more to the story in a queer sense. Now I view the story as sort of a queer tragedy and view Aran turning into a draugr as sorta like those tragic love stories where one person succumbs to something (disease, power, inhumanity, etc) and can be viewed as a story about how painful it is to watch your significant other loose themselves and accept that they are no longer the person you were in love with. But that's just my interpretation and I could be totally wrong. Anyways, ty for the banger videos 💚
Interesting theory, I've always assumed that the reason for them being so over the top committed to each other had more to do with the fact that they were only 12 years old and were each other's first real friends. Then again, I can see how that could evolve into something more
The only thing i might argue is the handsome comment in the beginning. If you're comfortable enough with your masculinity you can admit when another man is good looking or not. That being said, yeah, they were probably pretty gay.
Absolutely. I don't think that observation alone really does anything, and that was my interpretation on the first reading. But when viewed in context of the cumulative evidence, it definitely lends a bit to the overall picture.
Welp I think I have a new personal research project to do. Great video Ocean, you always give me something worthwhile to read. Side note, I knew you'd mention my boys Achilles and Patroclus. I've always loved them and I always "spaz out" when someone brings them up, as my brothers decide to describe it. Edit: Forgive me for this sin and get ready to take back your like, I present the worst joke I can think of. "Vikingr? Nah mate they're Viking-ay."
I absolutely love this one, and feel that it's very timely. As a gay Norse pagan who who identifies as a "gay Viking", I get a lot of the brosatru's who go "but you don't 'look' gay!" and "there aren't gay Vikings, dude!" Which brings the whole stereotyping thing into the picture. What does "gay" look like? When I watched your spooky draugr video I was one of those who thought this sounded like a gay Viking love/horror story. Well done, brother, and thank you!
Your not a viking tho, Vikings are actual raiders, when have you last done a real raid?
Lol @ "brosatru"!
I"m a cis man myself, and I feel strongly about positive LGBTQ+ representation & positive representations of masculinity. I really appreciate this video, thank you ! (rainbow vikings, yay :) )
Hey it doesn't matter if your gay... It matters if your DRENGR what are your values are you a decent person do you have courage, honor do you act with Virtue? That's what matters, don't listen to these Brosatru people, because really your more badass then them if you act like it
@@Name-tf4qp Im so tired of this mindset, Nobody is trying to be a Viking we are trying to Connect to the ways of our ancestors at least I am, and people are trying to embody and learn from the Old Norse Culture not just be a raider, the Northern Germanic People's were more than just raiders
"...and they were tombmates"
"Oh my god they were tombmates."
Just tombmates :P
howling
🤣
😂
I mean, it’s very hard not to see the parallel between Aran and Asmound sharing the grave and Achilles and Patroclus mixing their ashes in death
This guy has no clue of what he is talking about... and should definitely not teach people about it... som en dansk hedning er det absurd at høre på hans vrøvl.
Omg they were tomb mates.
Two friends. Chillin in a burial. 5 feet apart cause they're not gay! (Or were they!?)
Lmao 🤣
Bog mates*
i love seeing you so comfortable with this discussion. A lot of straight cis people will acknowledge gay people, but then in a way are like "yeah i support gays, but im not gay!" So i guess in a way if i didn't have enough reasons to respect you before, i definitely do now.
I hope you don't see that within the Heathen community. I'm sorry of you do
I also love this perspective. A big thing holding me back from looking into and getting into Paganism is some of the anti-queer, racist, and otherwise bigoted people using especially Norse symbolism. So finding this video is helpful, even if it's not the brand of Paganism I land on.
Here’s a joke you could’ve made.
The interpretation of Asmund’s sexuality could go both ways
Thats really good
Serious note here. And this is completely inference based on the stories.
But. What if the towns people didn't like the Co King possibly gay couple. So they (some one) killed the one who established the situation using poison of some kind. And that's why he came back as a draugr. He was seeking revenge in death and lashed out at the first person he saw due to his unrest from the injustice he suffered.
Something to think about.
The idea that Aran was poisoned has crossed my mind
Makes perfect sense to me... now can you tell me why the draugr of skyrim are so restless... so many restless programs.
To be honest the first time I heard 'suddenly fell ill' that was my first thought, but without this extra context I thought it might have been the 'brother' that did it to get the kingship to himself
What if he was poisoned before the grave watch causing hallicunations because poison and then spreading the myth of the draug, where he barely survived indeed, being poisoned..
This makes so much sense
Started with an "it's always possible"
Reminder of how deep it went, myself remembering that even as an animated corpse, Aran offered Asmund food and exhausted all other food sources first, "alright yeah I see it"
More context, including sharing everything 50/50 and being co-kings, "I don't see a heterosexual explanation for this"
I don't see why sharing 50/50 and co-kings should be impossible for tight hetero guys. That said I think a romantical relationship does sound like the more plausible read, I would also like to lift how fast the relationship came to be to support that thesis, sounds a lot like falling in love rather then a strongly built friendship.
"Asmund looked good enough to eat" so you could say he was a snacc
But he did not smile back
Thank you! I have a good friend of mine, who is bisexual and a fellow Heathen. He was ostracized from a kindred because " there are no gay vikings" bullshit. I defended him in a vigorous debate with the gothi of that kindred, citing the Odin and Loki examples. I had completely forgotten this tale. A PERFECT example of the complexity of ancient sexuality and the social dynamics of that time. Again, thank you for you knowledge and insight!
Hail to Aran and Asmund! May their bond be sung of for all time!
Best part of this video is learning there was no question in Plato’s mind Achilles and Patroclus were lovers. Nah, the real question in plato’s mind is which one was the top lmao
Plato be asking the real questions!
It's obviously Patroclus
Ok but in Troilus and Cressida, Shakespeare’s Achilles/Patroclus fanfic, a character insults Patroclus as Achilles‘ bitch. So Shakespeare thought Patroclus was the bottom…
Achilles must've been the top since he was a Demi God himself
They were both Versatile😉 or just mutual oral partners👌
I've been so ruined by modern Internet culture that, as you related how Asmund regarded Aran as "the most handsome man he'd ever seen", my brain gifted me with a vision of future historians and anthropologists studying this tale and remarking, "Seems kinda sus though, not gonna lie."
Brilliantly laid out and argued. This was fantastic.
Cishet white guys who are into mythology and vikings often get a bad rep for being ignorant towards queer identities but you completely pick apart that stereotype. I love it
The legal loophole point about sworn brotherhood being a way to have gay marriage reminded me of other cultures that did similar, namely in Chinese and sometimes Japanese culture
I appreciate the discussion on complex society. People romanticize viking culture to the point that they forget they were human like the rest of us and equally complex. So, of course there were LGBT+ vikings because there are LGBT+ people today.
yeah some must have been in the lgbtq+ community, but not that many as today, because back than were fewer ppl in general. for example in the modern day there are 634.293 ppl living in oslo according to a 2014 census. i'm not sure the actual number, but it must be at least 10.000 ppl back than in the middle age (900 - 1200) in oslo. sooo at least 20 - 50 of them can be in the lgbtq+ community.
@@doublesalopetoimcre Probably a lot more than 20-50. It's estimated that about 1% of the population is asexual, so if we assume medieval Oslo generally had about 10,000 people living in it (I have no idea what the actual population would have been either,) then about 100 of those people would be asexual, and since there's a lot more bi/pan people and gay people thatn there are asexual people, there'd easily be a few hundred of them.
there were/are no alphabet people, nor are there straight people, it's a modern delusion from uniform thinking.
@@poTato_777 I would agree with you for the most part. However, can you honestly say you are attracted to all people? I my case I am more attracted to men than women. So in order have people better understand my preferences I need to have some way to express that. Though I get what you are saying people should not limit themselves to one thing or another.
@@gabrielluchs3476 I dont find fat women attractive, but there is no need for me to identify as slimsexual, is there. sexual preference should not be a dividing factor between people imo, it is really not that important ;d
Really interesting! As an anthropologist, our field is finally reckoning with observer bias too. Perspective is everything.
As a gay man who is a Norse Pagan , thank you for this video.
I'm an archaeologist that focuses on gender, queerness, and the like, and I love the phrase Homogeneous group of observers, Fantastic. A++ description
If the gay theory is correct, i think it's interesting that the "hero" is not only gay, but the submissive one. You'd think if the culture was so against being gay the story (weather true or not) would not have been as long lived. The people would not perpetuate a story with a sympathetic protagonist that went so far against their values. Smells like Christianity vilified something that the original tellers of the story saw as at least a neutral characteristic if not a positive one. Expetialy with Odin also sharing the characteristic.
This is just speculation on my part, but as most if not all stories which describes Ergi are written centuries after the fact, is it entirely impossible it may in fact have been a lot more nuanced than later (mostly Christian) writers gave it credit for? Hear me out. Several cultures with very clearly defined gender roles also have a built-in "opt out clause", in the form of what is essentially a culturally codified transgender identity. (I can do a bit of digging for concrete examples, but don't have the time at the moment.)
And here's where I really go into theory crafting, but given the particulars of the story, the concept of Ergi, the practice of Seiðr (which we know to be women's magic, but literally nothing else), and the archaeological evidence of women buried with weapons and armour... (Plus the obvious, with Odin and Loki.)
I don't know about you, but things does seem to add up to something a lot more nuanced and complex than the hypermasculine rage machines we get in the media depiction of vikings since forever.
(Not saying anything conclusive, because it's literally just speculation. But you can probably use your imagination to fill in the blanks, much like I did.)
@@Grevnor Isnt seidr known a womenly magic but desopite it was frowned upon, ther were male practitioners. I sa that in an article and didnt look th sources but why not. And odin did learn it, so why not other men too like from their mothers.
Also yes ther seem several third genders in all of history. But seidr could very much be wicca like it maybe attracts queer folk, but not nessesary is an indicator.
This is something I share often. Much of the little we have is filtered by Christian worldview. "Well just say these gays were friends. You know, like Jesus and Peter"
The Norse were aggressively masculine. It was seen as extremely dishonorable to be feminine or "submissive" in any way.
@@MrCmon113 i think that's a very post christian look at the Nordic culture. We know very little about Thier thoughts on gender before Christians wrote it down, and Christians had a vested interest in making it seem like the culture always hated women.
I found some of it reaching but overall makes sense and wolf's poison theory brings more to it. It was my first thought when you said "suddenly became ill"
Yeah I don't think that any individual observation makes the case, but as a cumulative case it certainly seems to work as an explanation.
@@OceanKeltoi hmm? Worth an explanation? Maybe not, but an interesting case to ponder, definitely.
@@J0K3R_the_Nerd works as an explanation, in that it fits. And yeah, something to ponder about is kinda the point. We’ll never have a concrete answer.
@@OceanKeltoi definitely
"Some times close friends, really are close friends."
Every shipping community "i will pretend i didn't *hear* that"
Hell im close with my friend only because Im too scared to tell him I love him lol but we have gotten so much closer and are able to talk to each other about our feelings and he even put the letter I wrote him in his fav part of his room.
Hear what?
Shippers: Everyone is in love goddamn it! 😠
And they were co-kings 😎
Like Kage and Jables!
"WE'LL LEAD AS TWO KINGS!!!"
"Yo thAT'S PRETTY GAY." 21:00 had me dying
One thing that came to mind when you mentioned that their relationship was described as a "sworn brotherhood" - I just finished reading The Satyricon, and within the text, the main character has a gay lover who is occasionally referred to as "brother", both by himself and others. Perhaps that could've been a recurring type of terminology in older cultures before homosexuality was given it's own label?
Various ancient cultures did use kinship terms to refer to romantic bonds. It's not a direct parallel (since it's straight), but the Song of Solomon has the male lover refer to his beloved as "my sister", and apparently the use of brother/sister terminology in love poetry was fairly common in the Ancient Near East.
(That might seem a little weird and incestuous to our modern culture... _buuut_ we should keep in mind that our modern culture has sexual uses of the terms "daddy/mommy".)
So yeah, I could definitely see men in the ancient world referring to male lovers as "brother", either just to show affection or maybe to obfuscate their relationship a bit if their society isn't fully approving.
In Rome, men would refer to their wives as sister and wives to their husband as sister, so these kind of family terms are often just part and parcel of romantic links in general rather than anything necessarily linked to homosexuality. But historian John Boswell argues that the early/medieval Christian rite of adelphopoiesis "brother making" was a formal recognition of same sex relationships equivalent to marriage.
@@matterhorn731 David and Jonathon- whose love surpassed that of women-is totally " Just friends " in most Christian and Jewish interpretations
@@matterhorn731 Also in China and Korea, women in heterosexual romantic relationships often refer to their partner as 'big brother'.
I have always thought about this topic since transitioning into paganism from christianity. I always thought how would the gods look upon me for being bi sexual and this explains all of that and i deeply thank you for the explanation and clearing this fog. May the gods bless you and yours.
I have been so excited for this video and it did not disappoint. This is such a good example of how to recognize bias, its impact if unrecognized, and you lay it out beautifully.
One final comment, the whole Ergi thing has been kinda not... ruined... but at the least, affected, by that one Jackson Crawford video where he said the best modern equivalent he could think of was the 3rd garder insult "sissy".
IIRC from the beginning of that video, he admits directly that he chose that term so as to not have to resort to the kinds of slurs that get people kicked out of my home. It may perhaps be that another word would better fit the spirit of the work and simply be too offensive to publicize.
Yes this is something he went into a few times and said that there were other words that would better fit the spirit of the word ergi but he would not say them.
Arun thought Asmund was good enough to eat? I guess you could say Arun thought Asmund was a snack...
Asmund the snacc
As Slav, I am obligated to sneak in some vampires somehow, granted, but turning into a draugr may be interesting in itself in this scenario. For example, around here becoming an undead, an upyr, can very much come, at least in later folklore, as a consequence of sexual perversion, amongst other things such as the use of magic, heresy, and curses, et cetera.
If you leave your sex toys in a pile at the door the vampire will be compelled to count them all before entering
@@smrtfasizmu7242 Well, somebody has to keep the inventory.
@@MargaretKateMarlow don't forget the garlic flavored condoms to "stake" the vampire through the mouth
@@smrtfasizmu7242 As long as everyone is consenting, who am I to judge.
Oh my god they were tombmates
This is an interesting and important discussion to have. However, we must also realize the inherent issues with associating close male bonding with sexuality and sexual activities. We often see this in popular culture when two males sho affection towards each other, it doesn't take long until they are claimed by certain groups of the LGBT+ community or dismissed as deviants by the conservative community. A quick search on Fan-Art forums makes this rather graphically clear, pun intended if it can be called that. In any case, it does make it difficult for males in our society to show affection towards each other without being mislabeled, which in turn can generate overly masculine toxic traits in order to disprove such labels.
Absolutely. I think I reasonably caveated this issue in the video, that yes, often close friends are close friends. Not all affection between men is sexual. In this particular case, however, I think its a reasonable reading.
I take some issue with putting the onus of this issue on queer people representing fictional subjects as part of their community; even before lgbt representation in fandom or outside was a thing people were debating and shipping together every female and male character that even looked at each other, I think the urge to imagine different scenarios of our stories, especially romantically, is just a part of humanity.
It is absolutely an issue that people assume two men who are close or affectionate to be a gay couple, but this also absolutely happens with male and female friends who are very close, it's an issue of people not minding their business that only becomes more emphasized with men because of homophobia in general.. I think it's more productive to try and combat the association that being mistaken for a gay couple is bad and making the world more safe for gay couples, than trying to stop people from interpreting stories in a way that represents them.
I know like... reframing masculinity and sexuality is harder, but I think it is a more productive way to deal with this issue.
Fellas, is it gay to share all of your possessions and rule as co-kings?
Ach, thank you so much for following up on this, I was wondering across the whole earlier story!!! 😍
Quick note that language for around “who is the dominant one” can be… problematic (I’d be happy to help “unpack” that if that’s desired 😬)
yeah i can understand that.
"It's good to have people at your back" just hits different in this one XD
Oh no
@@OceanKeltoi oh yeah: strong Ergi energy FTW
One grave I find particularly fascinating is the Suontaka grave in Finland. The person was buried in expensive women’s clothing, but also with weapons, like men often were. They did genetic testing on the remains and found that this person likely had Kleinfelter’s syndrome, a chromosomal condition that effects males, and is caused by an extra X chromosome(XXY instead of the normal male chromosomes, XY). This tells me this person and their community likely knew they were different(people with Kleinfelter’s are often have less muscle mass than an ordinary male, smaller genitals, less public hair, breast growth, less body hair than many ordinary males, etc.) but they were still highly respected by their community despite this. This makes me wonder if the ancestors acknowledged any third gender, like the Native American Two-Spirit and the Christians just buried/destroyed any written or documented evidence of it. It’s given me serious Odinitis!
"He looked good enough to eat" lol Love it!!!
This is definitely something to think about when studying history. Makes me want to reread some things. It's kinda like when you rewatch Disney movies when you are an adult and you notice all the jokes that went over your head as a child.
This video brought up so much under a lens that I hadn't considered!
"By Odin... THEY WERE ROOMMATES!"
I'm living for this analysis, Ocean. A+++
The ending tho 😂😂
Fantastic video Ocean!!
I feel like "Be Gay, Go Viking" merch needs to exist
Aran and Asmund being lovers makes the story so much more tragic and terrifying, imho
i watched your spooky draugr video and one of my first thoughts was "yeah, seems pretty straightnt"
I first want to thank you for both recognising and diving into this after seeing new information and perspectives. As a very queer Pagan myself I immediately recognised the trends in historical retelling that hinted toward this possibility, and it is both interesting and validating to learn more about the story. This is also sending me quite suddenly down a research rabbit hole that I am (unsurprisingly, but sadly) discovering a bit of a dearth on. Thank you for the video and book recommendations, which I am immediately going to consume, and I would be extremely interested in any other sources you might have or find on the subject of queerness in "Pagan history".
Very well done, and good on you for admitting your bias. We've all got blind spots and it's great to see someone actually considering points they missed when said points are brought up.
Really great video. Thank you.
We need a library tour
I'm glad that you took us on this tumble down a rabbit hole.
Draugr were known to rise in response to their spirit wanting to seek a desire, weren't they? Haven't there even been a couple Draugr that explicitly rose to return (in a healthy manner or not, given the fact that draugr were known to impulsively lash out, kill, eat or spoil all the food in an area, etc) to loved ones?
At first I was upset that I missed the premiere. The day this premiered, I had just finished the part in the Iliad where Achilles went against warning of his death to avenge and meet death for Patroclus. They way you cover these tales, myth and overall content is stunning. You are amazing.
What I hate is that people will try gatekeeping me from Norse religion bc I’m queer and “yOu WoUldN’t Be AcCePtEd BaCk ThEn” and it’s like oh well ! I’d still be Swedish though. Like someone’s identity / morality doesn’t define if they’re of a certain culture or not???
I loved this so much. So much lost, so much discovered.
Love this video Ocean, I would say you've really dug out as much info as you could.
This video along side Aalie's video really paints how history is far more complicated for sexuality than people like to think. Great job as always. :D
Ok so at around 11:30 and 12:00 that sounds like a wedding. In my culture we use red ribbon that we hold in between each other's palms to represents our blood mixing and becoming one. So yeah they just got married.
Personally how dare you accuse a perfectly platonic and nonromantic relationship between two handsome, beautiful men who simply want to press together in the cold embrace of the earth, in deep (but not gay!) love with one another, who shared their kingdom together as a husband and wife would their house, very heterosexually, no gay here. How dare.
this is a work of art.
That parting joke was pure art.
Well done Ocean. You used critical source review to make your point valid. To admit that we can't tell for sure is like the main point about historical debattes.
Greetings from a german history nerd enjoying your content.
Very awesome vid. I laughed my ass off at the "end society" bit. I concur. We need a good ol fashioned asteroid impact though.
Bring on the asteroids. Its time.
As a queer man of mostly Danish descent, this was super exciting for me to watch!! Logically I know that people like me have existed as long as humanity has existed, but it can feel hard when within my own lineage I never get to hear about people that. Knowing about these Aran and Asmund is nourishing on a soul level. Thank you for your grounded perspective and the time and skill it took to research and put this together 🙏🏻💖♥️
17:20 that’s not enough to be considerated “based” but a good simple message of tolerance.
Great storyteller, love to come see your videos at the premiere, keep up the great content
"End So-" -Ocean. "Say no more" -me /pulling lit molotov cocktail from bag.
As a gay heathen that last joke made me laugh hard lol
“Loki as well has an association with ergi, despite being the one to accuse Odin of it.”
Ah yes, the timeless gay culture of bottoms making fun of other bottoms for being bottoms.
Thank you so much for the analysis. It's true one grows reading or listening to stories, and when we learn to discern we ,wait a minute? That's more than friendship!
Thank you for making this! Finding information about the spirituality of my ancestors is hard enough, as is queer history both have been deliberately erased. This is so special. I'd be so grateful for any more videos on gay viking culture.
Fantastic vid,..even if I am just seeing it fort he first time!
This is very cool and reminds me of the story of David and Johnathan in First Samuel which incites all the same questions.
Honestly, makes me think of Jesus and John as well. It is cited a couple of times in the NT, about no one else mind you, that John was 'the disciple that Jesus loved' or ' whom Jesus loved'. Or that on the cross before he dies, Jesus references his mother and tells John "she is your mother" and (to her) "he is your son". I feel no particular way about either interpretation, but I am surprised more isn't made of David and Jonathan or Jesus and John. 🤷♀️
I'm late on commenting here, but I've been studying iron age archaeology for a bit now and you are so right about modern straight CIS man perceptions. We were discussing graves of mighty warrior woman from North that were given the "gender" male, because it seemed unacceptable for a woman to be buried in such respect.
It's also extremely difficult for us not to make any assumptions because of the society that raised us. :') Even for us women studying archaeology, because we've been taught to accept that ladies usually never get the spotlight at war.
Hear hear!
Ocean, I love how you throw humor in you talks. My personal feeling has always been that throughout history, men and women shared sexplay and often had deep loving relationships. Sometimes with opposite sex but often with same sex. In societies where the sexes are often separated, sex is still going to happen. We know, people married for many reasons. Love is a fairly new reason. Weddings were for mating, but also connections, money, power. (Oh, and I love that you use GRSM or GSRM.) We can see all of this by studying our cousins, other apes and monkeys!👍 🥰💖🤎✌
What an exciting revelation and great video, thank you so much for putting this out here. It makes so much sense. Certainly see the parallel with Achilles and Patroclus.
I think you hit the nail on the head that many people coming to modern Norse paganism come to it wanting to be the big bad masculine Viking.
Many don't want to study about the boring Farmers or tradesmen, nor do they want to acknowledge the possibility that gender was looked at differently and that homosexuality existed & was accepted to some degree.
They were roommates, best friends. Obviously not gay.
Thanks for making this video 🌈
"were they gay..."
me: or european?
It's hard to guarantee
Excellent video! May Bragi keep your words sweet!
Queer folks in the US used to adopt each other for legal rights before marriage or civil unions were recognized, which is what I was thinking of the entire time Aran and Asmund were saying "we're blood brothers *wink wink*".
So glad to see how accepting you are of us queer folk. I didn't know of this legend until your Halloween video over it and was pleasantly surprised seeing here that there was more to the story in a queer sense. Now I view the story as sort of a queer tragedy and view Aran turning into a draugr as sorta like those tragic love stories where one person succumbs to something (disease, power, inhumanity, etc) and can be viewed as a story about how painful it is to watch your significant other loose themselves and accept that they are no longer the person you were in love with. But that's just my interpretation and I could be totally wrong. Anyways, ty for the banger videos 💚
Assassin's Creed Valhalla screenshot is the thumbnail
Like the disciple Jesus loved. I always assumed it was a gay thing.
Interesting theory, I've always assumed that the reason for them being so over the top committed to each other had more to do with the fact that they were only 12 years old and were each other's first real friends.
Then again, I can see how that could evolve into something more
I think the “rising from the tomb after 3 days” part seemed kinda familiar ;P I bet initially, the story did involve being entombed forever.
Yes Ocean, it’s good to have people at your back
Get it, because it’s about getting fu- [smiten by lightening]
Your work continues to impress, keep it up!
I hope everyone has a wonderful day.
The only thing i might argue is the handsome comment in the beginning. If you're comfortable enough with your masculinity you can admit when another man is good looking or not. That being said, yeah, they were probably pretty gay.
Absolutely. I don't think that observation alone really does anything, and that was my interpretation on the first reading. But when viewed in context of the cumulative evidence, it definitely lends a bit to the overall picture.
@@OceanKeltoi yeah for sure, i just wanted to point that out is all
Thor, the pride example of pure masculinity, is also somewhat associated with Ergi. In a story where he’s trying to get his hammer back from a troll.
You're brilliant. And funny.
Aran and Asmund could've just been close friends, but I think they probably would've been close in a more literal sense
Huh? Never thought I’d be more intrigued
What an absolutely fascinating look into ergi as a concept and a story that shows pretty well how that concept affected society.
Welp I think I have a new personal research project to do. Great video Ocean, you always give me something worthwhile to read.
Side note, I knew you'd mention my boys Achilles and Patroclus. I've always loved them and I always "spaz out" when someone brings them up, as my brothers decide to describe it.
Edit: Forgive me for this sin and get ready to take back your like, I present the worst joke I can think of.
"Vikingr? Nah mate they're Viking-ay."
THANK YOU!
Yaaas co-kings
Ancient man: OMG! I just survived an attack from the undead!
Modern man: LOL! That's gay!
Very gay
I’ve been So excited for this one!!
Damn that's gotta take a lotta strength to impale someone with an anchor then swing him around. 😮
Thank you for pointing out that it wasn't male or female but manliness vs not manliness.
How great would this Saga be as a film?